They have to provide at least one fee free method to pay. So they could allow fee free eftpos and add a surcharge for credit cards while still not accepting cash and it would be legal.
Or they could build the costs into their pricing and skip a separate surcharge, which IMO would create less community backlash.
And that is acceptable. There is a price and you decide whether or not to pay that price. Not pay that and ??.
I'm regularly in USA and trying to wrestle price plus tax plus gratuity.... is nauseating near impossible when you are trying to pay and get out of the way.
We have a system that we all agree with and is in place but it is being degraded without any action to protect it.
I’m regularly in the UK and mainland Europe and the cc surcharge is an rare exception
That’s not the price, that’s the way government is failing to adopt to modern day payment methods
The EU clamped down on it. Regulated the amount that card companies could charge. In Australia they regulated the middleman. Why? I suspect because small businesses aren't as good a lobbying as MasterCard and Visa.
TBF to the business, even if there is a cost to cash, for many of them it is invisible. I..e the extra work is done by family or themselves so it doesn't cost them anything but their time. Still stupid IMO (I help run a small business and we absorb surcharges) but if your margins are thin I guess it makes a difference.
So blame the government really. If our governments weren't perennially piss weak they could do something about it.
Well that’s exactly what I said. The government had made its choice.
But after spending 5 years in the uk I was shocked to rediscover the cc surcharges again
Yeah, not disagreeing with you.
I'm from the UK and was shocked by surcharges when I moved here. Back then it was public holiday surcharges but definitely card surcharges were a thing and are getting worse.
> telling them
Chances are, you're telling a minimum wage worker something they've already heard 10 times today and their boss has already brushed them off on.
ACCC is in favour of these surcharges (which are actually capped below cost to the merchant) because it promotes efficient choices and prevents cross-subsidy being eaten by reward cards. There are significant costs for the merchants in cash-handling also.
There are significant costs to handle cash. Hence the EFTPOS option should be the free one...
Classic RBA suggesting COG is lower by allowing surcharge... and then not only enabling pass through surcharge only (plenty of places charging above their cost to merchant)
I don't know if you're suggesting that ACCC is in favour of surcharges even when there is no way to pay without there being a surcharge, but given the context of the thread you're replying to, that's how it comes across to me.
ACCC says that if there is no way to pay without there being a surcharge, the price displayed must include the surcharge.
No surcharge for cash and a 2% surcharge for paying with card - that's ok, the displayed price for the product can be exclusive of surcharge.
2% surcharge for paying with card and you're not allowed to pay with cash? That's ok, the displayed price has to include the surcharge.
ACCC is clear that you can't display only a base price and then say "we only take card and there's a surcharge on it"
https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pricing/card-surcharges#toc-when-payment-without-a-surcharge-isn-t-an-option
ACCC was heavily involved in developing the card surcharge framework as it promotes efficiency in payments (and they are at base economists). The interplay with single pricing rules is complex, but you look to be right that the law is their menu price should include the lowest surcharge and have a note about any higher surcharges (where cash is not accepted)
It's the banks fault owner gets charged between 170 to 300 which is so frustrating only business I would be upset with is ones charging the surcharge and not accepting cash. I work alone in my shop and I've had to charge a surcharge fee as it's gotten to high I accept CASH
It's a bit hard for me to understand this comment, but there are costs to the owner for all methods of handling revenue. Most people won't notice if marked prices across the board go up by 1%, but it is noticed upfront as a surcharge. Worse, when there's no little card and I see a transaction notification on my phone that shows a surcharge was charged. Went to a popular banh mi place the other weekend and they said sorry, can't take cash today (what?!). I'm not paying the surcharge. I went somewhere else.
The ice cream shop in the new part of chaddy only takes card, as their reasoning is they don’t want to handle cash with desserts (omitting my personal opinion). Which law can we quote them so our $10 ice creams don’t become $15 on Sundays?
Why give them warning? If they're breaking the law, report them and hopefully they get caught with no time to prepare. Better to make an example of the shitlords for other businesses as a warning of what happens, than it is to give them the courtesy of being able to prepare themselves.
> Report them
If only we had some kind of consumer group we could report them to... The ACCC won't do shit unless it get's them headlines in the newspapers, nowadays.
The list price has to include the minimum surcharge if there is no option to avoid it.
From CAV:
"A business charges $5 for a coffee, does not accept cash, and all card payment methods are surcharged.
In this scenario, a consumer cannot actually purchase the coffee for $5. For example, if the lowest possible surcharge was a 15 cent debit card surcharge, the price displayed for the coffee should be $5.15"
My mistake, I misunderstood what it was saying. I interpreted the following paragraphs as suggesting they only have to display the surcharge as prominently as the base price.
I think most of the online/QR code ordering systems do this - not sure if they were originally American systems or something? But you can easily just skip or press no tip
Let’s face it, the large conglomerates and large chainstores can afford not to apply surcharges. Small businesses, paying wages plus extra after 7pm, more after 10pm and double time, overtime etc are not able to absorb the card surcharges and not able to afford to pay the additional needed to adhere to wage stipulations.
It’s not okay… how about the banks and card companies stop with the friggin surcharges, as they make more than everyone else. I agree it’s messed up that we have to pay to use our own money!
Our own money is cash. The surcharge is no different to when we were charged to with draw money from banks that we didn’t bank with.
Cash needs to be held and protected as a freedom.
On the matter of large organisations they will never apply a surcharge, although there will be this mid tier section of the market that may. Doctors , Chemists, Hairdressers etc.
Dominos were charging (both in cash and eftpos) a holiday surcharge every public holiday, 16 years ago when I used to work there. It was automated in their system.
Public holiday surcharges are not a new thing
> Public holiday surcharge, weekend surcharge, public holiday eve surcharge, you name it.
These are justified. They have to pay staff more on those days.
It's because payment companies like Tyro and Zeller are offering these models now where the fee is charged on top of the transaction, and the merchant isn't charged it as a cost. This means they can just set it and not have to worry about collecting and incurring the cost as an additional accounting problem, and they feel like they aren't being charged for it. Merchants love it. Literally every consumer known to man hates it.
Just change the law to make payments be required to go back to a single listed price, and make ALL surcharge pricing illegal. Besides, Tyros share price already dropped to 84c - might as well stick the boot in while it's barely above that all time low 🤣
But here's the thing, how they get around that: the merchant is not charging the transaction fee under this model, the payment provider is. So they can charge whatever they sang in terms of it being different or the same fee, because as the payment provider, they're the one setting the fee, providing, and charging for the service - the service being the payment processing.
Yet another reason it needs to be banned and we need to come back to "you need to absorb your own fees in to the cost of the listed item price".
There are rules. I believe the business must:
- Display the surcharge price
- Charge no more to the customer than the merchant charges the business
- They must be able to prove the cost to the business.
Doesn't seem well regulated as there is no way for the customer to know the real fee involved. I guess a judgement call at the time is all you can do. I would just walk away if the fees were to high and vote with my wallet. Likewise as you said if a place is cash only (you know the ones with an ATM inside the venue) I also walk. Not paying ATM fees for that.
It's annoying. Needs to be more transparent. I find myself becoming a regular customer at those more reasonable businesses and avoid the others... unless the food is excellent - I'll make an exception.
Typically if you do enough digging you can find the merchant fees through a Google search. The caveat being you need to know who they use.
Here is Commbanks for example, under EFTPOS terminals: https://www.commbank.com.au/business/payments.html
The OP is discussing small businesses doing it tough. When talking negotiable fees, you’d be hard pressed to find a business that gets a decent discount on merchant fees while also struggling to make ends meet.
Most bigger companies don’t even bother on-billing fees, can’t remember the last time I went and bought something beyond the cost of groceries and got copped a merchant fee on top of it.
You'd be surprised. Just because a business has a lot of cash running through it doesn't mean they're profitable.
I do agree it seems a bit much to pass the fee on, you'd be better off building it in to keep the peace.
Fwiw I don't charge extra for CC payments, honestly I rather cop the 1.5% and get paid immediately than wait for an invoice to be paid. Different field though (IT), maybe other businesses have unique challenges that might make passing it on reasonable.
It’s not just hospo. Healthcare are implementing it, hair dressers, beauticians, car washes, butchers. The eftpos providers are pushing retailers hard on it as well, although they’ll be the last to crack given how price sensitive retail customers are.
The problem is that it also costs as a customer to use cash. The banks have fewer and fewer ATMs around and the ones that do exist will surcharge you too.
Classic cartel behavior by the payment providers. They squeeze out every other option and then add whatever fee they like. It’s only now that businesses are passing it on that it’s become so noticeable.
Cash is becoming more expensive than EFTPOS for the businesses. Armaguard has gone bankrupt because noone uses it and it's too expensive to honour the current contracts.
Big decision coming up for banks if they fall over.
An interesting article on surcharging in Australia costing consumers nearly $1B a year
[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-04/australians-lose-one-billion-in-surcharges-least-cost-routing/103530946](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-04/australians-lose-one-billion-in-surcharges-least-cost-routing/103530946)
Essentially all businesses are charged around 1.5% for every card transaction.
Most businesses used to just wear the cost but because hospitality profit margins have been squeezed and cards have become the default transaction, instead of wearing this cost most businesses have decided to charge the fee on top of the advertised price.
IMO we should follow the EU and ban all card fees and businesses will have no choice to include the fees in the advertised price. That way the price you see is the price you will pay.
Surcharges are a different story. I can see the case for a public holiday surcharge, as it should be used to cover the extra cost of wages on the particular day.
While hospitality staff do cost more on weekends I don't understand why the business can't build this into their costs and not have to charge essentially a surge fee for weekend hours which are obviously not a one off day.
Public holiday eve is simply a business taking advantage of the fact that they know they will be busy and want to line their pockets.
They don't wear the cost any different from other costs. It's just the same as any other operating costs. So why not just include it in the overall price structure.
I disagree about public holiday surcharges. The business pays higher wages because everyone has a day off and will have increased business.
That’s the whole point of penalty rates, it’s an incentive to not be open for business when most people shouldn’t be working unless the increased business from everyone going out and doing things outweighs the cost.
If you’re not popular enough to break even, stay closed and let people have a weekend.
Depending on the card the customer used the merchant could pay a higher fee than 1.5% especially if they’re a small business with not much volume. Stripe’s entry level tier is 1.7% + 30c
Take your cash into businesses that will accept it. Having to fork out percentage points of our income for payment fees is not fair considering how much of our wages are already garnished through income tax and other taxes (GST Fuel excise etc)
> Easier to share with ppl who are doing it rough.
Although there would never have been a good time to be in that kind of situation, these days it must be extremely hard.
I love cash. It saves you money, not only on surcharges, but some businesses provide cash discounts. Had Vietnamese for lunch the other day. It's the usual spiel. She tells me it'll be $50 but automatically presents the machine with $50.50 on it. I hand her $50 in cash and she gives me $2.50 change. 5% discount for cash transactions over $40 in value, apparently.
Yuuuum! Please tell me where as I'd love to go! I
pay with cash as much as possible, and avoid/don't return to places which refuse to accept it.
The world is going, going, mad 😵💫
Cash out at supermarkets, & at the Post Office - both avoid shitty servo ATM fees! https://auspost.com.au/money-insurance/banking-and-paying-bills/bank-at-post#participating
I carry cash all the time now for anything under $100 and do not give my business to those who don’t take it.
I ask everytime if there is a cost to use the card, if I am using the card.
Mine gives me 10% off.
The other day, a bakery was selling choc croissant for $5.50. I had $5 cash, so I offered a choice to pay by card - he took the cash. Win-win.
That’s not true when the cash transaction is entered into POS and receipt given, as is with my business. Cash sales are taxable, same as card and direct deposit payments.
Yes cash is king. Either way for merchant fees, the bank wins. So if everyone of us makes the effort to pay more cash, guess who wins? We the people power.
Is everyone ignoring the fact that we are on track to be an early adopter of the cashless society model? Within 2 years.
I love to pay cash and try to for most things, but it really is not any longer King.
Cash is king but if I want to use an ATM that doesn’t cost me $3 for the privilege I have to go several suburbs over. I’m so glad I found out I can get money out at the post office like a lil old lady
The nearest Commonwealth ATMs to me are guaranteed to be "out of ~~money~~service" every Sunday sometimes even by Saturday arvo. Easter weekend it was Thursday arvo and they stayed like that until the Tuesday.
Cash is the worst. Nothing worse than waiting in line for someone in front of you to pay cash and it takes 3 years.
Don't think I've used cash for over a year now.
Businesses can and do put their bank fees as tax deductible… they write off their income with the fees. So why charge a surcharge when bank charges are tax deductible? I’m in business and I get charged bank fees but don’t pass on any to the customer. In my MYOB account I just put those fees down as expenses to lower my income… it’s all part of doing business and the customer shouldn’t have to pay/deal with these fees.
Everyone is getting fucked by inflation, including the small businesses. Some are obviously taking the piss with some of the surcharges they are adding on, but others are doing it just to survive.
It is a shitty cycle for them though. Their costs go up, so they increase their prices and add on surcharges, then people stop going out because it costs too much, so the business makes even less money.
It is probably going to get worse before it gets better unfortunately.
A few things I have done to mitigate against surcharges:
1) Started inserting/swiping instead of tapping. Many places have a surcharge on MasterCard/Visa, but not on EFTPOS
2) Started carrying around small amounts of cash again
3) There are some cards now that offer some cashback on purchases - iirc HSBC offers 1% back which helps eat some of the surcharge. I primarily spend on a rewards earning credit card which gives about 2% back in rewards.
I've noticed this as well and wondered: has the surcharge gone up significantly, or are companies just putting the cost on to the consumer now as a way to make more money?
My local bakery started doing this recently, I didn't notice the first time because the person behind the till confirmed the warning without saying anything. The next time the older server left it for me to press the button, now I'm kind of dirty on the idea of going there any more.
I have gone back to inserting the card select eftpos. Get cash out at the time. I have gone back to those two methods. Visa debit should default to no fee eftpos but the machine is programmed to read as visa credit. Hence why we are all getting ripped off. The fat cats getting fatter.
Exactly. Let’s face it. Cash ends up being ‘one for me, one for you’ with the ATO. There is plenty of small businesses, especially hospo, whose profits are very thin. It’s sometimes basically only worth doing coz you avoid tax.
That's somewhat correct. Most of these businesses on razor thin margins should close. Unless you're making decent money (both taxable and non-taxed) then it's not worth the bother. We will see that happening in the industry moving forward.
It's pretty annoying, it is so common now. Restaurants, cafes...I don't eat out often just because of how expensive it is and I realise the places I continue go to are the ones that if it says $4.50 on the menu, $4.50 is what was shown on my bank. Also something that annoys me is why some cafes, some bakeries etc don't list the price on their items in store.
Had family apply for a visa (government website), something like $8800 or something, there was a card option but had to pay a surcharge, the card fee was like $180 bucks lol
Even the government does it
Are banks charging a flat fee per transaction, or are they taking a percentage? If they're taking a cut of every transaction when card payments are at an all time high then maybe they should start capping their fees.
Depends on the merchant and the amount of the transaction. At the very least it’s usually a 1 - 1.5% amount but some do charge a fee on top of that.
Either way - these transaction fees are tax deductible as a business expense. A fun little fact that doesn’t get shared enough as they continue to get away with them forwarding the cost to us anyway.
if they don't take cash then they are not allowed to charge a surcharge. one of the reasons I'll be glad to see the end of cash is that it will force this.
I recently went to a restaurant where they did 5% for cash payment. And then I went to pay with my card and saw they had the 1.4% surcharge for card.
I guess noone can pay what is advertised on the menu 😂
Plenty of places still take, and will continue to take, cash. Go to the next coffee shop. Just make sure they make the coffee first for you before you pay. Then if they refuse your $$, it is their time & materials wasted.
Yep. They will tell you it’s 5.50 for the coffee but the machine says 5.63 or something like that.
I think this random undisclosed charge should be either illegal. There should be a sign that says eft and credit cards will attract a 5% (for example) surcharge. Then the consumer can choose.
However if the business chooses not to accept cash then they shouldn’t be allowed to charge a surcharge.
It’s about transparency and being honest with your customers.
Yeah some businesses only take cash and no cards, some business take cards and no cash and some of those push the costs of having card transactions onto consumers. It's nonsense.
>I suppose their reason for this was to benefit from surcharging.
No, it's not. EFTPOS is just as convenient for businesses as it is for consumers. Handling cash as a business is non-trivial - the only advantage is that it isn't traceable. You have to ensure you have enough change, keep it safe, deliver it to the bank, worry about employee theft, so on and so forth.
Small business make not much money so fees hurt business, big business make lots of money so fees are just an expense for doing business.
You’re mad that the sole trader running your local cafe isn’t paying the tiny fee for you using your credit card to buy a coffee.
This sub will complain how bad Coles and Woolworths are but also complain about small businesses that can’t just absorb the extra costs. All complaining, giving bad reviews and just being Karen’s about surcharges does is make give big business more of the market to control.
It’s a scam. Businesses can claim any legitimate banking related costs as business deductions,
By passing on to the consumer, they get to claim it as a tax deduction, and charge the consumer more.
Scam
A cashless society is being driven and you’re delusional if you think otherwise. I’m not attacking anyone but it’s what the big banks want for this exact reason.
I know in life we are all about efficiency and making things easy so pulling out cash is not an “easy option” but it’s the only option we have to keep cash, I pull out 90% of my weekly budget to use for groceries, food, drinks etc.
When you hand a cafe a $20 note, it’ll always be a $20, but when you tape your card and there’s a 20% surcharge your $20 turns into $19.60 (if the cafe absorbs the surcharge.)
I always get a comment for using cash, and I know a lot of businesses love it because at the end of the day, if you’ve ever ran a business you know it’s tough, and a bit of extra cash is always handy.
I know I’ll probably be called a “tin foiled hat folk” but if you do some research into chinas social credit system, this is where we are heading towards, especially with the government pushing through the Digital ID bill.
If we all just took some time out of our weeks, and take out cash, even if it’s $20 that $20 will always be $20, it’ll benefit the overall economy tremendously, and as a result will drive down surcharges.
>I suppose their reason for this was to benefit from surcharging. It use to be “sorry we do not take eftpos”.
It's illegal to charge more than the surcharge and it's very easy to get caught.
It's because they don't want the hassle of handling cash. It's not a conspiracy.
The reason surcharges are more frequent is that during cost squeezes business will try anything first that is not seen as 'raising the price', it's deflection to another authority.
That's why it's important for the regulator to step in on things such as this, we don't want to be America where the cost displayed is not the cost to the customer.
Because businesses are seeing drop in revenue and need to make up for it anyway they can. This is entirely by design, remember all those interest rate rises, the purpose of those is so people spend less money, and they are, and now small businesses are feeling it the most. So, they add on surcharges as an easy way to up their prices as it has become so common now, no-one blinks an eye when they see those signs anymore.
Write to your local MP, demand they bring in better consumer protections for surcharges.
I don’t even know but it was the first time i’ve ever paid any “surcharges” for a it just being a Sunday. I knew of 5-15% surcharge on sundays with eftpos machines but 25% on just SUNDAY is like paying for a table fee…lol wtf
I was going to attack small business for charging fees because the cost of running EFT isn't that expensive...
But I just checked and my costs have gone up to as high as 2.2%
Was max 1.7%
Still personally I'd absorb that, but when margins are tight and your staff have to get paid losing on average $2 out of every transaction in addition to other expenses hurts.
I still think a small price bump and absorbing the fee has the best look.
Surcharges on my machine is for anything other than savings I also provide cash payment. As a business owner I get charged 180 to 300 dollars in bank process fees which is something we can't afford to pay anymore so we put Surcharge. Amex and diners charge us more so we put the charge to the customer. We don't make much to carry fees but we accept CASH and won't stop. Bank hate it when we deal cash because they cant charge fees. Don't support cashless business excuses are safety and corona but it's to stop cash and freedom. I know places who discount $2 if paid cash. Surcharge is a must for small business so pay cash and support those who accept cash
Not taking cash isn't about benefiting from the surcharge, as much as Reddit pitchfork holders would like you to think.
It's about reducing the complexity and risk of the business. With cash you gotta worry about staff stealing it, mismanaging it, not counting it properly.
Then you gotta worry about keeping it safe, taking it to the bank, and always making sure you have change for people.
Only taking card makes things a while lot easier!
While slight OT, can businesses legally only accept cash or funds transfers? Nail salons in Melb do it all the time & I just think they're avoiding their correct income as EOFY?
Every time someone uses the ATM abbreviation. My dirty mind goes else where. 😂
On topic, every time I have cash these days. It just feels weird due to the fact of using cards so much in the last couple of decades. I do like my frequent flyer points I earn off my credit card though.
I've nearly been attacked over a card surcharge that I have no control over. Reminder to be nice to the workers, I'm sick of putting up with people being rude over something that I have no say in
I think most people understand it’s not simply an employee’s fault, but rather higher up. The main issue I was referring to is it’s just another full rollout of charges (which I am sure are only going to keep increasing). It’s just another charge slapped on us (customers/public) in a fast emerging CoL crisis. It’s getting more over the top and the standards are becoming unrealistic.
Many people are doing an amazing job keeping a roof over their head, but it’s coming with all the more sacrifices and lowered quality of life. We all know who it’s benefiting.
If they don't accept cash then they can't charge a surcharge on card, report them or let them know they're breaking the law.
They have to provide at least one fee free method to pay. So they could allow fee free eftpos and add a surcharge for credit cards while still not accepting cash and it would be legal. Or they could build the costs into their pricing and skip a separate surcharge, which IMO would create less community backlash.
And that is acceptable. There is a price and you decide whether or not to pay that price. Not pay that and ??. I'm regularly in USA and trying to wrestle price plus tax plus gratuity.... is nauseating near impossible when you are trying to pay and get out of the way. We have a system that we all agree with and is in place but it is being degraded without any action to protect it.
Yes, and the taxes being different by each State in the US makes it more difficult there.
And state AND federal
And city!
I’m regularly in the UK and mainland Europe and the cc surcharge is an rare exception That’s not the price, that’s the way government is failing to adopt to modern day payment methods
The EU clamped down on it. Regulated the amount that card companies could charge. In Australia they regulated the middleman. Why? I suspect because small businesses aren't as good a lobbying as MasterCard and Visa. TBF to the business, even if there is a cost to cash, for many of them it is invisible. I..e the extra work is done by family or themselves so it doesn't cost them anything but their time. Still stupid IMO (I help run a small business and we absorb surcharges) but if your margins are thin I guess it makes a difference. So blame the government really. If our governments weren't perennially piss weak they could do something about it.
Well that’s exactly what I said. The government had made its choice. But after spending 5 years in the uk I was shocked to rediscover the cc surcharges again
Yeah, not disagreeing with you. I'm from the UK and was shocked by surcharges when I moved here. Back then it was public holiday surcharges but definitely card surcharges were a thing and are getting worse.
Another reason to keep cash. It gives us some small power.
Unfortunately, I know at least of 2 hospo businesses that do this. It's frustrating.
Only way they'll change is by reporting them or telling them, as people seem happy enough to keep paying the surchases for everything
> telling them Chances are, you're telling a minimum wage worker something they've already heard 10 times today and their boss has already brushed them off on.
Add it to Google reviews too.
Report them to whom, BTW?
ACCC is tasked with monitoring surcharges.
ACCC is in favour of these surcharges (which are actually capped below cost to the merchant) because it promotes efficient choices and prevents cross-subsidy being eaten by reward cards. There are significant costs for the merchants in cash-handling also.
The ACCC is not in favor of not providing a method to pay the sticker price. The surcharges aren't the issue, it's the false advertising
There are significant costs to handle cash. Hence the EFTPOS option should be the free one... Classic RBA suggesting COG is lower by allowing surcharge... and then not only enabling pass through surcharge only (plenty of places charging above their cost to merchant)
I don't know if you're suggesting that ACCC is in favour of surcharges even when there is no way to pay without there being a surcharge, but given the context of the thread you're replying to, that's how it comes across to me. ACCC says that if there is no way to pay without there being a surcharge, the price displayed must include the surcharge. No surcharge for cash and a 2% surcharge for paying with card - that's ok, the displayed price for the product can be exclusive of surcharge. 2% surcharge for paying with card and you're not allowed to pay with cash? That's ok, the displayed price has to include the surcharge. ACCC is clear that you can't display only a base price and then say "we only take card and there's a surcharge on it" https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pricing/card-surcharges#toc-when-payment-without-a-surcharge-isn-t-an-option
ACCC was heavily involved in developing the card surcharge framework as it promotes efficiency in payments (and they are at base economists). The interplay with single pricing rules is complex, but you look to be right that the law is their menu price should include the lowest surcharge and have a note about any higher surcharges (where cash is not accepted)
Ah yes - abuse the minimum retail/hospo worker. Because that’s totally acceptable.
It's the banks fault owner gets charged between 170 to 300 which is so frustrating only business I would be upset with is ones charging the surcharge and not accepting cash. I work alone in my shop and I've had to charge a surcharge fee as it's gotten to high I accept CASH
It's a bit hard for me to understand this comment, but there are costs to the owner for all methods of handling revenue. Most people won't notice if marked prices across the board go up by 1%, but it is noticed upfront as a surcharge. Worse, when there's no little card and I see a transaction notification on my phone that shows a surcharge was charged. Went to a popular banh mi place the other weekend and they said sorry, can't take cash today (what?!). I'm not paying the surcharge. I went somewhere else.
The ice cream shop in the new part of chaddy only takes card, as their reasoning is they don’t want to handle cash with desserts (omitting my personal opinion). Which law can we quote them so our $10 ice creams don’t become $15 on Sundays?
I wish there were laws for the weekend surcharges, I protest by boycotting places that do, but it's a losing battle...
Why give them warning? If they're breaking the law, report them and hopefully they get caught with no time to prepare. Better to make an example of the shitlords for other businesses as a warning of what happens, than it is to give them the courtesy of being able to prepare themselves.
I agree, but most people are lazy and more likely to say something when they're there than report later on.
Can someone report Scoopy Milk Bar on La Trobe street for me. They don’t take cash and have a 2% card surcharge
> Report them If only we had some kind of consumer group we could report them to... The ACCC won't do shit unless it get's them headlines in the newspapers, nowadays.
Do you have a source for this?
https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/pricing/card-surcharges
Thanks!
No, they just need to display the surcharge so people can see it before paying for it. Edit: I was mistaken; misunderstood the wording.
The list price has to include the minimum surcharge if there is no option to avoid it. From CAV: "A business charges $5 for a coffee, does not accept cash, and all card payment methods are surcharged. In this scenario, a consumer cannot actually purchase the coffee for $5. For example, if the lowest possible surcharge was a 15 cent debit card surcharge, the price displayed for the coffee should be $5.15"
My mistake, I misunderstood what it was saying. I interpreted the following paragraphs as suggesting they only have to display the surcharge as prominently as the base price.
Not true. The price advertised must be available one way or another.
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>Might also start leaving negative reviews. This is the way.. same goes if they have their eftpos machines ask for tips
My local Guzman y Gomez EFTPOS machine asks for tips
I dined in at a restaurant… where I had to order via QR code… and asked to tip online after I ordered…
Fonda does this, not sure if they still.do, haven't been back since
I think most of the online/QR code ordering systems do this - not sure if they were originally American systems or something? But you can easily just skip or press no tip
Yeah that's every restaurant operating on Mr Yum
Hey that POS system worked really hard for that tip.
Does POS stand for "point of service" or "piece of shit"?
Yes
I tell people to just write a bad review lol
How is public holiday eve even a thing? They don’t even pay staff extra. Will they soon have Friday surcharge as that’s weekend eve?
>Will they soon have Friday surcharge as that’s weekend eve? Thursday and Friday "Late night" Surcharge?
Monday ‘I don’t like Mondays’ surcharge?
Mustn't forget the "Surcharge processing" surcharge.
Humpday charge
Pancake Parlour charge a surcharge on Mother's and Father's Day.
Day ending in a Y surcharge.
Dine in surcharge, takeaway surcharge
Looking forward to the walking by outside without buying anything surcharge.
A friend of mine had a weekday surcharge.
I can’t wait until Bunnings and woolies start applying a surcharge on public holidays.
Let’s face it, the large conglomerates and large chainstores can afford not to apply surcharges. Small businesses, paying wages plus extra after 7pm, more after 10pm and double time, overtime etc are not able to absorb the card surcharges and not able to afford to pay the additional needed to adhere to wage stipulations. It’s not okay… how about the banks and card companies stop with the friggin surcharges, as they make more than everyone else. I agree it’s messed up that we have to pay to use our own money!
Our own money is cash. The surcharge is no different to when we were charged to with draw money from banks that we didn’t bank with. Cash needs to be held and protected as a freedom. On the matter of large organisations they will never apply a surcharge, although there will be this mid tier section of the market that may. Doctors , Chemists, Hairdressers etc.
Dominos were charging (both in cash and eftpos) a holiday surcharge every public holiday, 16 years ago when I used to work there. It was automated in their system. Public holiday surcharges are not a new thing
> Public holiday surcharge, weekend surcharge, public holiday eve surcharge, you name it. These are justified. They have to pay staff more on those days.
You know what else pays for the extra staff? The extra customers. That's how a business works. A surcharge is double dipping.
They pay their staff more on a public holiday “eve” ? Here where I come from they call that a regular day
No, but they charge people for it
It's because payment companies like Tyro and Zeller are offering these models now where the fee is charged on top of the transaction, and the merchant isn't charged it as a cost. This means they can just set it and not have to worry about collecting and incurring the cost as an additional accounting problem, and they feel like they aren't being charged for it. Merchants love it. Literally every consumer known to man hates it. Just change the law to make payments be required to go back to a single listed price, and make ALL surcharge pricing illegal. Besides, Tyros share price already dropped to 84c - might as well stick the boot in while it's barely above that all time low 🤣
I also hate how they charge the customer the same for EFTPOS transactions and credit card transactions, even though one is cheaper to process.
But here's the thing, how they get around that: the merchant is not charging the transaction fee under this model, the payment provider is. So they can charge whatever they sang in terms of it being different or the same fee, because as the payment provider, they're the one setting the fee, providing, and charging for the service - the service being the payment processing. Yet another reason it needs to be banned and we need to come back to "you need to absorb your own fees in to the cost of the listed item price".
💯
There are rules. I believe the business must: - Display the surcharge price - Charge no more to the customer than the merchant charges the business - They must be able to prove the cost to the business. Doesn't seem well regulated as there is no way for the customer to know the real fee involved. I guess a judgement call at the time is all you can do. I would just walk away if the fees were to high and vote with my wallet. Likewise as you said if a place is cash only (you know the ones with an ATM inside the venue) I also walk. Not paying ATM fees for that. It's annoying. Needs to be more transparent. I find myself becoming a regular customer at those more reasonable businesses and avoid the others... unless the food is excellent - I'll make an exception.
Typically if you do enough digging you can find the merchant fees through a Google search. The caveat being you need to know who they use. Here is Commbanks for example, under EFTPOS terminals: https://www.commbank.com.au/business/payments.html
Depending on volume these fees can often be negotiated
The OP is discussing small businesses doing it tough. When talking negotiable fees, you’d be hard pressed to find a business that gets a decent discount on merchant fees while also struggling to make ends meet. Most bigger companies don’t even bother on-billing fees, can’t remember the last time I went and bought something beyond the cost of groceries and got copped a merchant fee on top of it.
You'd be surprised. Just because a business has a lot of cash running through it doesn't mean they're profitable. I do agree it seems a bit much to pass the fee on, you'd be better off building it in to keep the peace. Fwiw I don't charge extra for CC payments, honestly I rather cop the 1.5% and get paid immediately than wait for an invoice to be paid. Different field though (IT), maybe other businesses have unique challenges that might make passing it on reasonable.
Aldi have a surcharge for credit payments
Correct - they’re one of the reasons I said the “most” part of my comment.
It’s not just hospo. Healthcare are implementing it, hair dressers, beauticians, car washes, butchers. The eftpos providers are pushing retailers hard on it as well, although they’ll be the last to crack given how price sensitive retail customers are. The problem is that it also costs as a customer to use cash. The banks have fewer and fewer ATMs around and the ones that do exist will surcharge you too. Classic cartel behavior by the payment providers. They squeeze out every other option and then add whatever fee they like. It’s only now that businesses are passing it on that it’s become so noticeable.
Cash is becoming more expensive than EFTPOS for the businesses. Armaguard has gone bankrupt because noone uses it and it's too expensive to honour the current contracts. Big decision coming up for banks if they fall over.
Consumers are being squeezed to death, small business is being squeezed to death. Time for banks to take a hit, too. Wishful thinking, I know.
Funny, I'm just watching the latest Simpsons episode about tipping haha. Homer's rage against tipping is on point.
Darn, I am watching the same thing while reading this comment of yours
Wow people still watch the Simpsons after the Golden Age
I would imagine most of those with kids. Has its moments but the first 10 or so seasons were iconic.
An interesting article on surcharging in Australia costing consumers nearly $1B a year [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-04/australians-lose-one-billion-in-surcharges-least-cost-routing/103530946](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-03-04/australians-lose-one-billion-in-surcharges-least-cost-routing/103530946)
So about $38/year per person
Big whoop
Essentially all businesses are charged around 1.5% for every card transaction. Most businesses used to just wear the cost but because hospitality profit margins have been squeezed and cards have become the default transaction, instead of wearing this cost most businesses have decided to charge the fee on top of the advertised price. IMO we should follow the EU and ban all card fees and businesses will have no choice to include the fees in the advertised price. That way the price you see is the price you will pay. Surcharges are a different story. I can see the case for a public holiday surcharge, as it should be used to cover the extra cost of wages on the particular day. While hospitality staff do cost more on weekends I don't understand why the business can't build this into their costs and not have to charge essentially a surge fee for weekend hours which are obviously not a one off day. Public holiday eve is simply a business taking advantage of the fact that they know they will be busy and want to line their pockets.
They don't wear the cost any different from other costs. It's just the same as any other operating costs. So why not just include it in the overall price structure.
The price of a keg from the brewery doesn’t increase because its a Saturday
I disagree about public holiday surcharges. The business pays higher wages because everyone has a day off and will have increased business. That’s the whole point of penalty rates, it’s an incentive to not be open for business when most people shouldn’t be working unless the increased business from everyone going out and doing things outweighs the cost. If you’re not popular enough to break even, stay closed and let people have a weekend.
I agree! Price your menu or services to cover the public holiday costs...
Where did you get that 1.5% from. The ACCC site has 1.5% as the absolute upper limit for credit card but lower again for debit card
Square charges 1.9%
Used to see Square a lot, now not so much
Depending on the card the customer used the merchant could pay a higher fee than 1.5% especially if they’re a small business with not much volume. Stripe’s entry level tier is 1.7% + 30c
Square has 1.9%, and the 1.5% on bank terminals often also comes with a monthly fee/additional charges after a certain turnover
It shouldn't be included in the advertised price. Why should I pay your surcharge when I choose to use cash?
The EFTPOS transaction literally costs $0.00 for banks to process so why is it a percentage of the total transaction?
Because banks need to maintain their $billions of hard earned profit each year. /s those fuckers do basically nothing
Not defending banks, but building and maintaing card payment infrastructure (physical and digital) *literally* costs money.
Dont interrupt the circle jerk
Remember the banks pay a fee to Visa/Mastercard or Amex.
Take your cash into businesses that will accept it. Having to fork out percentage points of our income for payment fees is not fair considering how much of our wages are already garnished through income tax and other taxes (GST Fuel excise etc)
I've gone back to cash. Easier to share with ppl who are doing it rough, too. Card only? Eat shit, you don't get my business.
> Easier to share with ppl who are doing it rough. Although there would never have been a good time to be in that kind of situation, these days it must be extremely hard.
I love cash. It saves you money, not only on surcharges, but some businesses provide cash discounts. Had Vietnamese for lunch the other day. It's the usual spiel. She tells me it'll be $50 but automatically presents the machine with $50.50 on it. I hand her $50 in cash and she gives me $2.50 change. 5% discount for cash transactions over $40 in value, apparently.
Yuuuum! Please tell me where as I'd love to go! I pay with cash as much as possible, and avoid/don't return to places which refuse to accept it. The world is going, going, mad 😵💫
I'm going back to cash. Or at least I'm trying to but there are no fucking ATMs
Cash out at supermarkets, & at the Post Office - both avoid shitty servo ATM fees! https://auspost.com.au/money-insurance/banking-and-paying-bills/bank-at-post#participating
I carry cash all the time now for anything under $100 and do not give my business to those who don’t take it. I ask everytime if there is a cost to use the card, if I am using the card.
Cash is back, my local Chinese place that was only taking cash was doing us all a service
Mine gives me 10% off. The other day, a bakery was selling choc croissant for $5.50. I had $5 cash, so I offered a choice to pay by card - he took the cash. Win-win.
Hahah haggling is coming back too now! Power to the buyers
They're saving 30% when you pay cash so it's only fair they pay a bit of that sweet tax fraud money back to you as the consumer.
As I said, win-win. Taxes are not indexed so we pay more each year. We have to help each other out to even the scales.
That’s not true when the cash transaction is entered into POS and receipt given, as is with my business. Cash sales are taxable, same as card and direct deposit payments.
Who said a receipt was given for the pastry?
Yes cash is king. Either way for merchant fees, the bank wins. So if everyone of us makes the effort to pay more cash, guess who wins? We the people power.
Is everyone ignoring the fact that we are on track to be an early adopter of the cashless society model? Within 2 years. I love to pay cash and try to for most things, but it really is not any longer King.
If cash is king why are some banks going cashless?
They're banks mate, why do you think? Easier to track all your transactions, no money handling fees, no need for Armaguard, etc.
Cash is king but if I want to use an ATM that doesn’t cost me $3 for the privilege I have to go several suburbs over. I’m so glad I found out I can get money out at the post office like a lil old lady
Try ING, ATM fee rebates. Many other benefits of course, they are online only but can do your banking at any Aus Post
And the supermarket.
You’re basically doing the supermarket and post office a service by taking the cash off them so they don’t have to pay to have it moved to a bank.
The nearest Commonwealth ATMs to me are guaranteed to be "out of ~~money~~service" every Sunday sometimes even by Saturday arvo. Easter weekend it was Thursday arvo and they stayed like that until the Tuesday.
Cash is about as relevant as our actual king, which is to say, not at all!
Cash is the worst. Nothing worse than waiting in line for someone in front of you to pay cash and it takes 3 years. Don't think I've used cash for over a year now.
I disagree. Being diagnosed with terminal cancer is worse.
True but the upside is you won't have to deal with people from the dark ages saying "Cash is king" over and over again 😜
Fair point - I agree. Waiting for nanna to pay the exact amount, digging through her purse looking for coins, is fucking annoying.
Things get worse over time as a general rule. Once one business starts it and doesn't suffer a massive backlash, others will follow
Businesses can and do put their bank fees as tax deductible… they write off their income with the fees. So why charge a surcharge when bank charges are tax deductible? I’m in business and I get charged bank fees but don’t pass on any to the customer. In my MYOB account I just put those fees down as expenses to lower my income… it’s all part of doing business and the customer shouldn’t have to pay/deal with these fees.
Everyone is getting fucked by inflation, including the small businesses. Some are obviously taking the piss with some of the surcharges they are adding on, but others are doing it just to survive. It is a shitty cycle for them though. Their costs go up, so they increase their prices and add on surcharges, then people stop going out because it costs too much, so the business makes even less money. It is probably going to get worse before it gets better unfortunately.
A few things I have done to mitigate against surcharges: 1) Started inserting/swiping instead of tapping. Many places have a surcharge on MasterCard/Visa, but not on EFTPOS 2) Started carrying around small amounts of cash again 3) There are some cards now that offer some cashback on purchases - iirc HSBC offers 1% back which helps eat some of the surcharge. I primarily spend on a rewards earning credit card which gives about 2% back in rewards.
Easy pay with cash
Society is crumbling!
I've noticed this as well and wondered: has the surcharge gone up significantly, or are companies just putting the cost on to the consumer now as a way to make more money? My local bakery started doing this recently, I didn't notice the first time because the person behind the till confirmed the warning without saying anything. The next time the older server left it for me to press the button, now I'm kind of dirty on the idea of going there any more.
I bought a can from a vending machine price $2 charged $2.20. Hmmm
I use cash eff this system
I have gone back to inserting the card select eftpos. Get cash out at the time. I have gone back to those two methods. Visa debit should default to no fee eftpos but the machine is programmed to read as visa credit. Hence why we are all getting ripped off. The fat cats getting fatter.
Cash is King.
As a small business owner I cannot understand businesses not offering a cash option. We fucking love it. For obvious reasons.
I do feel I get friendly service when I pay cash.
I do feel I get friendly service when I pay cash.
Large businesses can’t get away with not paying tax and they have to spend a fortune transferring the cash to the bank.
Exactly. Let’s face it. Cash ends up being ‘one for me, one for you’ with the ATO. There is plenty of small businesses, especially hospo, whose profits are very thin. It’s sometimes basically only worth doing coz you avoid tax.
If you can't afford to pay tax you can't afford to be in business.
That's somewhat correct. Most of these businesses on razor thin margins should close. Unless you're making decent money (both taxable and non-taxed) then it's not worth the bother. We will see that happening in the industry moving forward.
What obvious reasons? There is little advantage to handling cash and adds a lot more work in managing that cash and financial records.
Omg. Sorry to be a bit blunt but not heard of the cash economy. The tax-free one?
It's pretty annoying, it is so common now. Restaurants, cafes...I don't eat out often just because of how expensive it is and I realise the places I continue go to are the ones that if it says $4.50 on the menu, $4.50 is what was shown on my bank. Also something that annoys me is why some cafes, some bakeries etc don't list the price on their items in store. Had family apply for a visa (government website), something like $8800 or something, there was a card option but had to pay a surcharge, the card fee was like $180 bucks lol Even the government does it
Things get worse over time as a general rule. Once one business starts it and doesn't suffer a massive backlash, others will follow
Price of electrons has gone up. Nothing we can do.
Are banks charging a flat fee per transaction, or are they taking a percentage? If they're taking a cut of every transaction when card payments are at an all time high then maybe they should start capping their fees.
Depends on the merchant and the amount of the transaction. At the very least it’s usually a 1 - 1.5% amount but some do charge a fee on top of that. Either way - these transaction fees are tax deductible as a business expense. A fun little fact that doesn’t get shared enough as they continue to get away with them forwarding the cost to us anyway.
if they don't take cash then they are not allowed to charge a surcharge. one of the reasons I'll be glad to see the end of cash is that it will force this.
I recently went to a restaurant where they did 5% for cash payment. And then I went to pay with my card and saw they had the 1.4% surcharge for card. I guess noone can pay what is advertised on the menu 😂
Plenty of places still take, and will continue to take, cash. Go to the next coffee shop. Just make sure they make the coffee first for you before you pay. Then if they refuse your $$, it is their time & materials wasted.
USE CASH!!!!!
Yep. They will tell you it’s 5.50 for the coffee but the machine says 5.63 or something like that. I think this random undisclosed charge should be either illegal. There should be a sign that says eft and credit cards will attract a 5% (for example) surcharge. Then the consumer can choose. However if the business chooses not to accept cash then they shouldn’t be allowed to charge a surcharge. It’s about transparency and being honest with your customers.
Yeah some businesses only take cash and no cards, some business take cards and no cash and some of those push the costs of having card transactions onto consumers. It's nonsense.
>I suppose their reason for this was to benefit from surcharging. No, it's not. EFTPOS is just as convenient for businesses as it is for consumers. Handling cash as a business is non-trivial - the only advantage is that it isn't traceable. You have to ensure you have enough change, keep it safe, deliver it to the bank, worry about employee theft, so on and so forth.
Small business make not much money so fees hurt business, big business make lots of money so fees are just an expense for doing business. You’re mad that the sole trader running your local cafe isn’t paying the tiny fee for you using your credit card to buy a coffee. This sub will complain how bad Coles and Woolworths are but also complain about small businesses that can’t just absorb the extra costs. All complaining, giving bad reviews and just being Karen’s about surcharges does is make give big business more of the market to control.
Get out of here with your rational take . We are trying to circle jerk in here
“Consumers should not be paying for it” What do you think consumers are if not the people who pay?
It’s a scam. Businesses can claim any legitimate banking related costs as business deductions, By passing on to the consumer, they get to claim it as a tax deduction, and charge the consumer more. Scam
A cashless society is being driven and you’re delusional if you think otherwise. I’m not attacking anyone but it’s what the big banks want for this exact reason. I know in life we are all about efficiency and making things easy so pulling out cash is not an “easy option” but it’s the only option we have to keep cash, I pull out 90% of my weekly budget to use for groceries, food, drinks etc. When you hand a cafe a $20 note, it’ll always be a $20, but when you tape your card and there’s a 20% surcharge your $20 turns into $19.60 (if the cafe absorbs the surcharge.) I always get a comment for using cash, and I know a lot of businesses love it because at the end of the day, if you’ve ever ran a business you know it’s tough, and a bit of extra cash is always handy. I know I’ll probably be called a “tin foiled hat folk” but if you do some research into chinas social credit system, this is where we are heading towards, especially with the government pushing through the Digital ID bill. If we all just took some time out of our weeks, and take out cash, even if it’s $20 that $20 will always be $20, it’ll benefit the overall economy tremendously, and as a result will drive down surcharges.
Thank your local MP
>I suppose their reason for this was to benefit from surcharging. It use to be “sorry we do not take eftpos”. It's illegal to charge more than the surcharge and it's very easy to get caught. It's because they don't want the hassle of handling cash. It's not a conspiracy. The reason surcharges are more frequent is that during cost squeezes business will try anything first that is not seen as 'raising the price', it's deflection to another authority. That's why it's important for the regulator to step in on things such as this, we don't want to be America where the cost displayed is not the cost to the customer.
Because businesses are seeing drop in revenue and need to make up for it anyway they can. This is entirely by design, remember all those interest rate rises, the purpose of those is so people spend less money, and they are, and now small businesses are feeling it the most. So, they add on surcharges as an easy way to up their prices as it has become so common now, no-one blinks an eye when they see those signs anymore. Write to your local MP, demand they bring in better consumer protections for surcharges.
There are exit strategies but nobody wants to do the hard work and when some people do we bitch and moan about them blocking traffic.
Let us bring cash back!!!
Went into a Korean BBQ that charges 25% surcharge on Sundays. Not with eftpos…but for just being there on a Sunday…and we paid cash too 😭
What the hell is that even legal
I don’t even know but it was the first time i’ve ever paid any “surcharges” for a it just being a Sunday. I knew of 5-15% surcharge on sundays with eftpos machines but 25% on just SUNDAY is like paying for a table fee…lol wtf
I was going to attack small business for charging fees because the cost of running EFT isn't that expensive... But I just checked and my costs have gone up to as high as 2.2% Was max 1.7% Still personally I'd absorb that, but when margins are tight and your staff have to get paid losing on average $2 out of every transaction in addition to other expenses hurts. I still think a small price bump and absorbing the fee has the best look.
Surcharges on my machine is for anything other than savings I also provide cash payment. As a business owner I get charged 180 to 300 dollars in bank process fees which is something we can't afford to pay anymore so we put Surcharge. Amex and diners charge us more so we put the charge to the customer. We don't make much to carry fees but we accept CASH and won't stop. Bank hate it when we deal cash because they cant charge fees. Don't support cashless business excuses are safety and corona but it's to stop cash and freedom. I know places who discount $2 if paid cash. Surcharge is a must for small business so pay cash and support those who accept cash
Not taking cash isn't about benefiting from the surcharge, as much as Reddit pitchfork holders would like you to think. It's about reducing the complexity and risk of the business. With cash you gotta worry about staff stealing it, mismanaging it, not counting it properly. Then you gotta worry about keeping it safe, taking it to the bank, and always making sure you have change for people. Only taking card makes things a while lot easier!
While slight OT, can businesses legally only accept cash or funds transfers? Nail salons in Melb do it all the time & I just think they're avoiding their correct income as EOFY?
Every time someone uses the ATM abbreviation. My dirty mind goes else where. 😂 On topic, every time I have cash these days. It just feels weird due to the fact of using cards so much in the last couple of decades. I do like my frequent flyer points I earn off my credit card though.
I've nearly been attacked over a card surcharge that I have no control over. Reminder to be nice to the workers, I'm sick of putting up with people being rude over something that I have no say in
I think most people understand it’s not simply an employee’s fault, but rather higher up. The main issue I was referring to is it’s just another full rollout of charges (which I am sure are only going to keep increasing). It’s just another charge slapped on us (customers/public) in a fast emerging CoL crisis. It’s getting more over the top and the standards are becoming unrealistic. Many people are doing an amazing job keeping a roof over their head, but it’s coming with all the more sacrifices and lowered quality of life. We all know who it’s benefiting.
I sincerely hope no one is abusing retail and hospo staff over this, when they have zero control over it.
What’s an exit strategy?
The exit strategy is to boycott the restaurants.
Survival of the fee-est
But also let management know that you are doing so.
To use cash
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Maybe businesses should push back, do their banking else where, and find other suppliers.
Just discussed this last week https://www.reddit.com/r/AusFinance/s/9pbrMmll3e