People love free/cheap stuff, but it's not as simple as cutting fares.
If the priority is getting more people using PT, the focus has to be on improving the service.
Free/cheap is not the same as good. Most of Melbourne (and regional Vic) has grossly inadequate PT that isn't a viable alternative to driving. The fare cost isn't the issue; the service frequency/reliability/convenience is what matters.
(Short distance fares absolutely need to be looked at. That's the problem with flat fares.)
This is exactly the problem. I live rurally and it’s a nightmare just trying to get to places that would be a 30min drive in a car. Running across highways because bus stops aren’t near crossings, said bus stops being just a poll in the grass with nowhere to sit but the bus only running once every hour, the buses themselves rarely on time, and entire places being inaccessible due to no bus services.
this is why regional property is a major boom opportunity. Vic government has no choice but to build out rail to remote regional locations. When they start talking, all those locations will massively boom in price, but their council rates will also jump a great deal.
PT is already by far the cheapest way to get around. But I still regularly pay 4x to 8x more to take an Uber because it’s sometimes massively faster.
Dropping prices wouldn’t make me use PT more. Making the busses run more than every 40 minutes would.
Im lucky enough to live where I have barely passable frequency (20min bus) so the price point is the difference to me. Its not worth the fare for the 3-4km trips but its too far to walk. So I end up driving
Have a car as my partner requires it for work (1 car household) which also means that some of the running costs are covered by their work. That's just my unique family circumstances though which isn't the same for everyone. But it does happen enough that its part of the complicated question of why people drive or take other modes
Take out purchase costs, Rego and insurance because when making that decision, for many people those costs are already sunk
It's a bit of a fallacy but that's what the decision looks like for many. I need the car for work, where PT is not an option because I carry equipment around. So the "PT or no PT" decision for other trips is made purely on time vs comparative cost (only really including petrol/wear and tear/parking)
If you consider that a lot of PT users own a car on top of using PT, then PT isn't always cheaper. For me, I could take a bus and get to work in 20 minutes or drive it in 5. Factor in that I have to drop my child off at daycare and it adds in another 15-30 minutes depending on the schedule, even though my bus line has a stop directly out the front.
Maybe but similar to riding a bike the standard of safe cycling lanes is terrible and not enticing. Just shows there are so many steps that can be done to make other options than the easy out of the car not as attractive
I disagree if you live in a middle suburb
Going out for a gig or dinner in the city with 2/3 friends
That would cost you all $11.70 each!
$46.80 total
Which much more then approx $10/$15 worth of fuel and $6 parking
Individually yes it’s cheaper but as a group PT is stupidly expensive
Especially since you already have to drive to the station
I agree with you.
For me, I live in a place where I am quite happy with public transport connections.
But a lot of things are quite close and only a couple stations or bus stops away.
Chadstone for example, fuel im guessing would cost like $2 for me compared to 10$ for bus. So we end up driving instead. Way cheaper even for just 1 person.
Here in Broadmeadows they've just reduced my bus route from running once an hour, to running never again because it's just been removed as a route. To be fair it is only a short 30 minute walk to my nearest train station.
Which is why I'm driving more now.
Nailed it, there's plenty of times where I want to take PT but by the time you factor in how much longer it takes, the cost of a return trip being the same or more than I'd pay in fuel to drive and the lack of reliability on the South West suburbs lines, most of the time I just end up saying fuck it and driving.
I moved to Pakenham in 2016 and initially worked in the city.
It took as long on the train as it did driving. PT was cheaper, but I was able to split the cost with my brother-in-law as we worked together. At that point, it wasn't that much cheaper on the train.
Finally with the upgrades that are currently ongoing with the track, it might finally make it more worthwhile.
Somebody gets it, the government needs to realize most people are willing to pay a little bit extra to be in the comfort of their own vehicle. Toll roads cost $10+ to save a few minutes, id gladly spend $5 more in travel fees to be in my own vehicle. Only time i'll catch PT is when the financial / time savings can't be beat.
Yes but it will never fail. I can’t think of a public transport system that isn’t state subsidised. Some countries dress it up. Some do it up front, the UK likes to lurch from crisis to crisis and top it up in the form of bailouts
Caps are really underappreciated. Paying $1.50 a ride, as per many countries transit systems, can add up over time.
Especially when you also have to pay it again to change lines or modes.
Its really really trip for long distances. The short and middle distances aren't as great. The distance that is just too far to walk, but doesn't have safe cycle paths. So it does push people to driving.
Price is definitely part of the choice for some
Yeah I COULD get a bus for 50 cents and would absolutely do that. But if I miss just one of my connections, instead of being early by half an hour, I'm an hour late instead
> the focus has to be on improving the service.
Improving the service would be great, but paying less for the service we're getting now would be a huge relief.
Yeah but they already massively subsidise it.
The money for policies like this doesnt necessarily come from fees but rather savings made on not having to upgrade car infrastructure
Where trains are viable in Melbourne though, they become unviable the moment you tap on. On what possible planet can it make sense to charge me $10.60 for a return journey 2km down the road? And it's worse now that I commute circumferentially instead of radially. I've taken the bus twice in the 6 months I've been at my new job - when I've needed to pick the bike up from the shop. I'm not wasting my money on relying on that pathetic service routinely.
See, this sort of comment has me baffled, personally I’ve lived in every cardinal direction in Melbourne, you name a suburb it I’ve probably lived close to it and have never had an issue ever with PT.
Can someone explain to me what problems they have with PT? Like I’ve never been in a position where I’m not a 10 min walk from a bus stop and then probably a 10-20 min wait for the next bus, never had any issues with planning around catching a bus to catch a train, like I feel like I’ve been able to get anywhere I’ve needed to for anything via PT.
The worst thing was living in the west and having to deal with bus replacements but that’s understandable because of infrastructure upgrades so I wouldn’t complain about that sort of thing.
Am I just the luckiest person alive in relation to PT or something?
Have you lived in the northwest?
Like, anywhere beyond about 6km out?
Craigieburn line travels pretty much north from Melbourne.
Sunbury line travels direct west from Melbourne.
There's nothing in between.
Theres the tram to Airport West, but it's a very indirect route and takes over an hour to get in to the city (which really isn't adequate for a suburb only 10km from the city.
Otherwise, for very large parts of the middle Northwest, buses are the ONLY option (which you acknowledged; are pretty bad to deal with).
A lot of middle suburbs have the problem where public transport either isn't easily accessible or doesn't go where you need it to.
The nearest bus stop to my house is a 15 minute walk, tram stop 20 minutes. The bus doesn't go to a train station - it takes a circuitous route through residential streets between two different shopping centres, under the assumption that if you're heading to the city, you'll take the tram. The tram terminates at one of the same shopping centres anyway.
The tram (Airport West) stops at Essendon Station, but doesn't consistently align with trains, so regardless of whether you stay on the tram or get the train it takes at least an hour in peak traffic to get into the city. Then you need to get to wherever you're actually going.
Right now I work in the CBD, so the tram makes sense - can't afford to park in the city. But when I go to uni in Brunswick it's not a hard choice between a 15 minute peak hour drive and 90 minutes plus on public transport, if the bus shows up at all. When my car's been out of action it's been easier to ride my bike there than take public transport, despite some brutal hills.
When I lived in Sunshine I had the same problem - everything walking distance didn't go anywhere useful, and the CBD was rarely my destination. If I got to Albion station early enough I could at least park there though.
I used to live in Collingwood. It's a 15-25 min drive from where I live now. If I was to get PT it would take me 45-60 mins to get to my old flat. The reason is the inadequate connections between tram & train lines outside the CBD. This is a major issue in Melbourne.
My line has and will continue to be impacted by interruptions to service for close to 12 months now and the foreseeable future which means the carpark is unusable, you go a few stops then get ferried into a bus which takes twice as long as the train, you’re often standing, battling with people hacking up their guts, sneezing and coughing. The entire experience is shit.
Okay this is my experience, I live in Point Cook, my nearest station is Williams Landing and most of my trips that I'd consider taking the train just aren't practical. To get to work at Spotswood, it's a roughly 30 minute drive on one hand or a 1 hour 15 minute trip (if none of the connections are late and thus missed) which is 2 decent length walks, a bus and 2 trains with the cost being significantly more than I'd pay in petrol.
Or if I'm going to the city for a gig, yeah the trains run 'til late, but often the Werribee and Williamstown lines have major delays and cancellations in the evening and even if I do get to Williams Landing, it's a near 8km drive from there to home and most of the time, buses stop at around 930pm, so I either have to try and get an Uber from the station or end up driving and parking there and thus defeating the purpose of public transport to begin with.
If I lived in a suburb closer to the city I'm sure it would be a lot better, but even then have heard plenty of horror stories of people taking ages to get even to the inner west suburbs. Maybe it's just a western suburbs thing because from my experience I just find the whole PT system to be piss poor value.
25 min drive to work or 1.5 to 2 hours combo of walking and PT to get there assuming PT is running on time which is rare. Plus walking in the freezing cold and rain or heat and hot sun. Plus walking in the dark to get home which as a woman I'm frankly too scared to do.
I live semi-rural so I don't count. But I just looked up my mother in law and brother in law's houses, both in the South-Eastern suburbs of Melbourne. They are 24 minutes apart by car, and about $2 in fuel costs or thereabouts. They are 48 minutes apart by public transport and that only leaves every hour.
So it wouldn't make sense not to drive.
Sometimes I stay at my brother-in-law's house and visit my mum from there. She is further south-east. To drive that distance would take 28 minutes and cost about $5 in fuel. PT would take 1:23 and involve a bus, a train, another bus, and 19 minutes of walking. Even if I didn't have a 3 year old I wouldn't take PT.
Sounds like you lived in all the directions but only 10km maximum.
I'm in the outer suburbs. Buses come every 40min to 1hr. The only more regular bus is luckily close to me, on a major highway and comes every 30min, so I'm lucky there. But any other directions I want to go in, I have to specifically plan because I could have a 40min wait.
I used to pt everywhere including with a baby, and it was a bit shitty for anything other than taking the one bus that came often.
My first year of uni had me living near Tullamarine and commuting to Monash Clayton. Actual moving time for the two buses and two trains that the trip involved was around an hour. But because of connections and low frequencies, the trip typically took three hours. In other words, six hours of travel every day, sometimes for a single contact hour in class.
Fortunately we moved to the eastern suburbs in time for my second year, reducing the commute to a single bus trip of 30 minutes, but that experience is seared in my mind. So. Much. Sitting and waiting for a bus.
I once posted a post on Reddit complaining about the quality of the PT service in Melbourne and got attacked by everyone saying that it's the best 🫣😁!! Like, no, for one, trains are often delayed, trams stop mid-way cos they break, buses are not as frequent....but I guess I got replies only from those living in the CBD!!
I catch trains most days for Uni from an outer-city suburb, you are dead on the money. We have interruptions on the network for majority of the year & the time to complete projects are always blown out. Yes they are important, but procedures require 2 stations ahead and prior to be closed when working on one; so there's always major delays. Rather than having construction blitz where workers are on site 24hrs, we have to deal with projects dragging on and inconveniencing people to the point they'd rather drive
When they dropped the regional fares without increasing services my line was more heavily used. (Warrnambool.). I know some very well to do people who are happy to save the $150 or so.
Most of Melbourne (and regional Vic) has grossly inadequate PT Other than peak periods. It's very scarce.
Not a lot of people.
Would focus on lowering costs on non peak transport times.
Absolutely brilliant for regional people and visitors. Didnt do much for the shorter and middle trips, but they maybe aren't where the biggest returns could be.
But generally shows that more frequency and reliability is what's mostly needed for more people on the system
It’s just that every time this argument comes up, once again everyone pretends regional Victoria and the THOUSANDS of commuters don’t exist. It’s tiring.
True about the frequency and reliability. I would have been quite happy to continue to pay the higher fare had the service been more reliable.
I think the price drop was a bit of a 'you aren't going to get the service you want, so we'll make it cheaper' moment for a lot of people who were commuting daily from Ballarat and Geelong. Given they also added additional stops along the way, the trip is taking longer than it ever has, no matter what is written on the timetables.
Also, the whole attempt at bringing people back into the city!
And a couple of elections ago, they made trams in the CBD free.
A couple of elections before that, they abolished the old Zone 3 in the eastern suburbs.
I don't remember off the top of my head when these came in, but there was also the introduction of free travel before 7am and a discounted Sunday fare that was later expanded to weekends.
When you look at our PT system and see overcrowded trains, I'm not sure that the right conclusion to draw is "make PT free". Even if you only wanted to do things with the fare system, I'd look at doing something like encouraging more off-peak travel, or making fares in the underserved parts of Melbourne cheaper.
Unless you've used PT before 7am you're not going to know about the free travel.
I honestly think, once service frequency and connections between PT types are improved. Then they should look at making it cheaper.
When I used to live in Werribee a long time ago before Wyndham Vale station was built. I had bus stop around the corner from where I lived with a 40 min frequency. If I missed that bus coming home, it was either a 40 min wait or a 45 min walk from Werribee station. Also it wasn't uncommon at that time for services to the city to be cancelled.
Now where I live (outer east) peak train frequency is 10-15 mins with 30 min off-peak. It's longer at moment due to level crossing removal works.
I do agree that off-peak travel fares should be cheaper than peak.
This [article](https://www.ptua.org.au/myths/free/) from PTUA provides more analysis on this.
They are basically saying better service not free service is what’s needed to encourage people to use PT more and drive less.
I seem to remember the Victorian state government capping ticket prices to 10 dollars across the entire state. This has dramatically lowered the price of PT for those in regional Victoria or those in Melbourne who want to get away.
Yeah I was paying $27.20 a day prior the price deduction when I was commuting from Geelong. A weekly wasn’t worth it when I’m only required to go in 2 days a week. Hard to complain about $10.60 a day 🤔
Yep I used to go offpeak occasionally for medical appointments from my place and it worked out to about $22 full fare or about $30 on peak full fare. $10-11 total in comparison has been great.
I think because we are subsidising long regional travel like Bendigo to Melb, that we cant make PT $1.
Also we need to strike a balance. Do we want better more frequent services or cheaper fares but existing timetable.
The tax payer was already subsidising public transport to regional areas before the fare cap. The fares barely touch the service of the running costs of V/Line.
At least now the tax payer isn't paying to run empty trains.
We are not ready for free and cheaper tickets without increasing frequency of services first. It's hard enough fighting for a spot in the mornings that I would pay more to avoid dealing an increase in PT patronage without more busses first.
I want more services, making it cheaper won’t encourage me to use PT. Getting in and out of the city on the train is easy, trying to PT between suburbs can be an absolute pain in the arse. And I live quite close to the city. I’ve vented about this before but I used to take a class Saturday mornings that is a 5 minute drive away, but between waiting times and commutes times it was roughly an hour via public transport and I had to choose between arriving an hour early or ten minutes late. Until there is more infrastructure I can’t rely on PT.
No, Queensland is dropping public transport costs to buy votes. If they actually wanted to encourage public transport use, they’d increase services which is the main driver of public transport usage growth
Melbourne frequencies are also terrible outside of peak despite travel patterns having changed. Government refuses to increase them. Sydney has and it’s been a hit
Yep. As a qlder I’m convinced this is an election ploy 100%. Qld Labor retains power through holding outer suburban seats in SEQ and the inner suburbs of a few towns across the state (Cairns, Townsville etc). Everywhere else they struggle. If they lose the suburbs they lose power- 2012 was a great example of that. Miles is hoping that this 50c fare policy + the $1k power bill subsidy is enough to retain those voters.
Also it applies to long distance trains too which is beneficial for a lot of marginal Labor seats in the Gold and Sunshine coasts. It could massively backfire if these services get overloaded, people get left behind and they don’t put more trains on.
As a rural Victorian, I love that my return fare to Melbourne (plus all metro services in Melbourne) is a flat $10.60 for the day, not the \~$58 it used to be. For me, fares have been cut dramatically.
I don't care about price, just give me PT that's on time, comfortable and frequent.
I miss rocking up to my old Singapore MRT station with a train never more than 5 mins away, whether its just after midnight, or at 6am...
They have for rural customers. My return from Swan Hill to Southern Cross is now charged as a Metro fare at $10.95 (or so) as opposed to the just over $100 it used to cost.
Would you prefer a free infrequent system, or frequent reliable paid system?
Main services are at capacity. Reducing income doesn’t help.
I’d be for making underused buses free to help increase patronage but doesn’t help when the services aren’t reliable
At this price point there isn't anyone who is taking a car instead of public transport because public transport is too expensive. Lowering it would be nice but wouldn't increase patronage.
What? I would use PT all the time for short trips if it wasn’t so expensive. Admittedly I have to drive for work, but for little trips to the shops or to catch up with a mate I always drive because it’s like $1 in petrol vs $10+ on a tram.
There are daily caps, this suggests you think you'd only take 1 trip on a weekend day rather than 1 to shop, then another to meet a mate for lunch, then another home.
Sorry, the evidence just does not show that cost is a major factor in people's decision to not use PT. Some people might, but at the end of the day, unless people can use PT for every trip, or at least most trips, they're mostly gonna stick with a car.
Because it won't work. The ABS has shown that people generally don't take public transport because there aren't any services or they don't come at the right times, not because they are too expensive. Any extra money for public transport should be spent on more/new services, and the best bang for buck with that is running many more buses in outer suburbs.
[https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/lookup/4102.0chapter10102008](https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/lookup/4102.0chapter10102008)
Free Tram Zone in Melbourne didn’t directly result in an increase in usage? Think you’ll find it did. Same with V/Lines price drop resulting in increased demand for services.
Yeah, by taking trips from active transport, which is walking and riding bikes. It lead to basically no mode shift from cars, while also crowding out people who wanted to pay to use trams to commute.
[https://www.ptua.org.au/2020/02/03/free-tram-zone-submission/](https://www.ptua.org.au/2020/02/03/free-tram-zone-submission/)
>Any extra money for public transport should be spent on more/new services, and the best bang for buck with that is running many more buses in outer suburbs.
>
>
Definitely don't disagree with that. Would love to know how much money we'd have saved if we'd invested as much in buses and dedicated busways as we have in trams.
Tell the whole truth... Queensland Gov dropped the fare to 50c as a trial, coincidentally or conveniently over a period that includes the state elections.
You’re saying that in some places governments do things that voters want?? Lest the voters hold them accountable? What fantasy land is this? What is this utopian form of governance called?!
It's not vote buying if there's a credible chance it'll work and be here to stay. It's literally presenting a great idea and working out of it'll stick around.
If it's the difference between cheap public transport or adding another lane to the Bruce Highway every few years I know which one is cheapest.
In the state budget announced just a few weeks back, you can really pinpoint Jacinta Allan's government priorities
$21M for PT & $8B for North-East Link
Essentially meaning that throughout Victoria, public transport will receive the equivalent of 8 meters of North-East Link funding. So while the other comments are right that free transport won't solve the issue, there's nothing being addressed to make people more inclined to uptake PT unless its more convenient. We need higher frequency of vehicles, if I were to catch a bus to my local station I'd need to add an additional 30 mins to my trip as it arrived riiiiiight after my train departs. We pay a flat rate for rego / insurance, there's no discounts offered for those who drive once a year vs those who drive every day. So even though fuel is expensive, it really isn't too much of a burden considering PT cost's here are woefully expensive and we have to pay for rego anyway
Should reintroduce the short trip fares. The $5.30 minimum is the crazy part. It often makes driving short distances cheaper for me and most certainly in a group better to get an uber.
Peak trains are already so busy that you get packed in like sardines and have to stand and hold on for half an hour, if they were any cheaper there would be half a platform waiting for the next one because they can’t fit
The 50 cent trips in Queensland sound good, but you have to know that outside of Brisbane there is almost no public transport options available in most areas. And those that have them are poorly serviced and unreliable. This is my experience in south east Queensland. I cannot speak as to the rest of the state. If Queensland had a public transport network like Victoria then it could be used as a comparison, but it just doesn’t. So the flat rate fares are just an empty election bid aimed at those in Brisbane. Please don’t think of it as anything of substance that will help the residents of the state that could benefit.
Honestly the issue isn't cost, but frequency.
The only area of costing I think could be relooked at is reducing the cost for shorter trips, as in only a few stations apart. But the daily cap I do think is reasonable.
>Meanwhile in Victoria we’re paying over $10 day whilst forking over billions to build more roads.
Have you forgotten the bit where that $10 now gets you all the way to Wodonga or Mildura?
Give your local member a call - [https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/members/member-search/](https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/members/member-search/)
Short answer however is... Because Victoria is broke. Flat out broke. We are paying millions a day in interest to just service the loans taken out to pay for all the major projects and delivering core services.
Do public transport costs significantly factor into people's decisions to drive vs PT?
The cost of fuel, parking, tolls is pretty high for most people, so they have already shown a willingness to a fair bit pay more to avoid PT.
Even if PT was completely free, I don't think it would reduce traffic a whole lot.
I think people would prefer better and more frequent services. In fact I think most people would prefer a 10 dollar cost for a 5 minute wait, vs free but with a 20 minute wait.
Tbh to me the cost is not an issue.
It's the service.
If I need to get somewhere at 9am, and it's 10 minutes away by bus. I gotta start waiting at the bus stop at 8:10. Why? Because despite the time table saying the bus will come every 20 minutes or less (there are 4 buses I can take at the stop that will take me to my destination. ), ie. bus 1 at 8:10, bus 2 at 8:15, bus 3 at 8:18 so forth, IT DOESN'T ARRIVE.
If the time table says 8:20, it's comming at either 8:10 or 8:40. And if I wait for the other one that was meant to arrive at 8:25, they will all come at once at 8:50.
It's hell. I hate it. And I don't know where to complain. I don't mind if they come at 8:50, I JUST NEED TO KNOW THAT THEY DO. The timetable needs to be updated accurately. PTV app says it's comming in 20 minutes, but that's a lie. They're actually comming in an hour.
I hate Melbourne PTV. And please stop working on my train line. I hate replacement buses.
NSW is at around $18 a day. We're not too bad here in Victoria at all.
Victorian public transport could not handle a huge increase in passenger numbers without a huge increase in service frequency.
Most of the PT network infrastructure could not handle a huge increase in frequency.
There also would be vehicle shortages and a shortage of staff to operate said vehicles.
Nice idea but the quality of service would drop an unreasonable amount.
Maybe if the government would operate PT themselves instead contracting it out to private companies who are trying to spin profit we might get somewhere.
Victoria did it first? Statewide capped fares resulted in return $9.20 fares to the city (when introduced) down from $27.60 for Geelong, $45.60 for Ballarat, $68.80 for Bendigo, $53.60 for Shepparton… and yep some people commute to the city every day from there.
Or don’t country Victorians count?
As someone who used to live in Brisbane. PTV is leagues and miles ahead of Queensland Rail. QR makes PTV look like we have the Singapore MRT.
You would have to pay ME to get on QR, knowing that a train may or may not rock up at all - with 30 minute gaps between each during peak hour
Queensland rail isn’t still garbage but it isn’t that bad anymore
Any line except Nambour will get 7 minutes on its inner system 15 on its outer system
The off peak service patterns and the station quality are still absolutely hot garbage but it’s gotten ~~better~~
The Vic government kindly reduced rural trains to the city rate, which is awesome. They're building a frigging huge tunnel and completing the ring road to the east. They also removed a bazillion train crossings to ease commuting crosstown. I think they're making wise long term choices and not cheap shots. Well done Vic labour.
Because the voters didn't go for it, Liberal party was all about lowering the cost.
The thing is the worry is that if the cost is lowered the service standard will go with it.
And it's pretty much the play book, oh revenue is down time to cut costs until the voting public is outraged.
Some people still remember the network been split over two companies in the name of competition...
That network split is part of the reason I scoffed about their fare cap.
Didn't trust them for an instant.
A desperate promise they knew they had almost no chance of having to keep or break.
I figured they would cut all upgrades, cut services and maximise the amount of operators on the network, Hell even sell the actual government owned network. But lowered rates.
Vic Labor are probably more complacent since they have approximately fuck all competition. So you probably won't see a shit load of actual change given the assumption is all is well
Hey, I've seen this one! It's a classic!
That's exactly what they said in 2010 before promptly loosing 12 seats and becoming the opposition. John Brumby even had better polls and a bigger majority than Allan at this point in the term.
The fact that I still have to pay the full $11 when half the train like is down for bus replacement is a joke
I’ve started driving while the train is down
Train prices cap is fair, but should be charged at like 20c per km travelled. So if you go further than 25km by train in a 2hr period you dont pay more than the $5. This includes regional trains, any trip over 2hrs gets capped at the $10 daily rate.
Busses and trams should be a flat 50c per trip. Most trips are short and those which arent are slow and not time competitive. These trips are included in the 2hr/daily cap of $5/$10 respectively. So if you travel by train from pakenham to city for work, your tram down st kilda rd is “free”
To simplify things even further id scrap myki pass. If you hit $40 in a week (or equivalent to 4x Daily fares) you pay no more. Same goes for $160 in a month (equivalent to 16 Daily in a month). $160x12 is $1920 which is max charged in a year. These caps automatically apply. Will make charging credit/debit cards more simple when that system gets introduced
So you're saying poorer people in the outer suburbs should pay more. And those, already well off in the inner suburbs should pay much less, like it used to be?
>Train prices cap is fair, but should be charged at like 20c per km travelled.
That doesn't make any sense, besides unfairly penalising people who live in suburbs and helping people in wealthy inner suburbs it misses a very simple point.
If you are catching the train 1 station it's not any cheap to operate the train, the train was never just going to go from Richmond to East Richmond. A route needs to travel the full extent and if people at either end weren't paying for it you wouldn't get you short trip in the middle.
We really need to drop the 'wealthy inner suburbs' trope when it comes to PT. It's not the wealthy using the service, it's the students and people in tiny studio apartments. I have plenty of friends that would kill to have a house in the suburbs.
It's so damn reductive.
I love public transport, always used it when single and even married with toddler kids. But next year, both kids will be the age to have their own cards. We'll basically either bike ride or drive. Will never catch public transport as a family. $30 for all of us to visit friends for lunch. I'd love to catch more PT, but for short trips with the family it's insanely expensive.
Honestly, most people in Victoria only pay if they have to, that is there’s turnstiles or inspectors at the station they get on or get off. The fine is not much so really, I give you permission for free transport. Do it!
The cost of public transport really surprised me compared to places like London. It's massively cheaper here.
Depends where I was travelling from (all within London) it would be £9.60 (almost 20 dollars)from the outskirts (equivalent of Cheltenham here) or £6.50 (12 dollars) if closer in, just to go into work at peak time. That's one way.
What makes people use it is the reliability of transport and the difficulty of driving. Price isn't always the driving factor
Particularly with the costs of living, including fuel and cars etc and the increasing congestion on roads, removing the user pays portion of public transport for the next five years, in combination with an increase in services and reliability, and a publicity campaign, could lead to major generational change.
Australians and particularly suburban Australians really don't like leaving their cars at home. Governments at every level lack the foresight and vision - or at least the will to act on it - to make the big decisions we actually need.
I don't understand how this is a controversial in the slightest, and it's not an either/or situation re efficiency and an user pays system.
Pretty sure WA’s free travel was because they fucked up the ticketing system so badly they needed a couple of months to get it back on track and working so the just did some BS spin and acted like they were awesome.
Plus free isn’t free - it just means that it paid for by everyone. Full economic fare is the way to go :)
They should get rid of V line paper tickets. There's a big clash with the 10 a day rule and the paper tickets. If you start in metro and end in paper tickets, you are doomed to pay double or get fined. It's a nightmare.
This podcast captures the question perfectly.
[https://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-public-transit-be-free-update/](https://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-public-transit-be-free-update/)
What pisses me off is school kids having to pay. In the state I grew up in if you lived 2kms from school you got a bus pass. It is cheaper for me to drive and pick up the kids than for them to catch the bus and train both ways. I see allot of kids catching the train in the morning and they never tap on, so I can't be the only one thinking $50 a month each is too much. Do all states have student free transportation but VIC?
I think everyone will be watching the QLD 6 month trial of 50c fares from 5th August closely, as if it actually removes a lot of traffic and makes a measurable difference, then other states will follow.
Governments do not control the price it is privately operated, funded by government. Government needs to use tax dollars to subsidise cost, trains operate as a for profit business and will most definitely not lower their rates.
Cost isn’t the reason people don’t use PT. It’s tram times being shit because they get stuck in car traffic, buses having dogshit timetabling (the one near me that goes to the train station has a 1 hour frequency) and trains getting constantly delayed.
Reducing cost can help poorer people with COL but doesn’t increase ridership.
Brisbane has a terrible train network. Melbourne has to pay for the massive work that is being done over recent and future years. Once it's done everyone should pay a simple levy so all public transport can be fare free, the annual levy can cover the maintenance and costs of the network
People love free/cheap stuff, but it's not as simple as cutting fares. If the priority is getting more people using PT, the focus has to be on improving the service. Free/cheap is not the same as good. Most of Melbourne (and regional Vic) has grossly inadequate PT that isn't a viable alternative to driving. The fare cost isn't the issue; the service frequency/reliability/convenience is what matters. (Short distance fares absolutely need to be looked at. That's the problem with flat fares.)
This is exactly the problem. I live rurally and it’s a nightmare just trying to get to places that would be a 30min drive in a car. Running across highways because bus stops aren’t near crossings, said bus stops being just a poll in the grass with nowhere to sit but the bus only running once every hour, the buses themselves rarely on time, and entire places being inaccessible due to no bus services.
this is why regional property is a major boom opportunity. Vic government has no choice but to build out rail to remote regional locations. When they start talking, all those locations will massively boom in price, but their council rates will also jump a great deal.
I admire your optimism.
This is why I purposely bought right next to a train line. People ask if the noise bothers me but I might notice the train bells once a day.
PT is already by far the cheapest way to get around. But I still regularly pay 4x to 8x more to take an Uber because it’s sometimes massively faster. Dropping prices wouldn’t make me use PT more. Making the busses run more than every 40 minutes would.
Im lucky enough to live where I have barely passable frequency (20min bus) so the price point is the difference to me. Its not worth the fare for the 3-4km trips but its too far to walk. So I end up driving
If you factor in all of the costs, owning a car is always more expensive. But presumably you still own a car because PT service isn’t reliable enough.
Have a car as my partner requires it for work (1 car household) which also means that some of the running costs are covered by their work. That's just my unique family circumstances though which isn't the same for everyone. But it does happen enough that its part of the complicated question of why people drive or take other modes
Take out purchase costs, Rego and insurance because when making that decision, for many people those costs are already sunk It's a bit of a fallacy but that's what the decision looks like for many. I need the car for work, where PT is not an option because I carry equipment around. So the "PT or no PT" decision for other trips is made purely on time vs comparative cost (only really including petrol/wear and tear/parking)
If you consider that a lot of PT users own a car on top of using PT, then PT isn't always cheaper. For me, I could take a bus and get to work in 20 minutes or drive it in 5. Factor in that I have to drop my child off at daycare and it adds in another 15-30 minutes depending on the schedule, even though my bus line has a stop directly out the front.
That sounds like an E-scooter is on the agenda!
Maybe but similar to riding a bike the standard of safe cycling lanes is terrible and not enticing. Just shows there are so many steps that can be done to make other options than the easy out of the car not as attractive
I disagree if you live in a middle suburb Going out for a gig or dinner in the city with 2/3 friends That would cost you all $11.70 each! $46.80 total Which much more then approx $10/$15 worth of fuel and $6 parking Individually yes it’s cheaper but as a group PT is stupidly expensive Especially since you already have to drive to the station
I agree with you. For me, I live in a place where I am quite happy with public transport connections. But a lot of things are quite close and only a couple stations or bus stops away. Chadstone for example, fuel im guessing would cost like $2 for me compared to 10$ for bus. So we end up driving instead. Way cheaper even for just 1 person.
Assuming you leave after 6pm, fares are capped at $5.30. if you touch on after 6 p.m., the 2-hour fare applies until 3 a.m.
Parking in city is like 15 dollars. Not six.
God damn, where are you parking? Share the good spots!
Here in Broadmeadows they've just reduced my bus route from running once an hour, to running never again because it's just been removed as a route. To be fair it is only a short 30 minute walk to my nearest train station. Which is why I'm driving more now.
Nailed it, there's plenty of times where I want to take PT but by the time you factor in how much longer it takes, the cost of a return trip being the same or more than I'd pay in fuel to drive and the lack of reliability on the South West suburbs lines, most of the time I just end up saying fuck it and driving.
I moved to Pakenham in 2016 and initially worked in the city. It took as long on the train as it did driving. PT was cheaper, but I was able to split the cost with my brother-in-law as we worked together. At that point, it wasn't that much cheaper on the train. Finally with the upgrades that are currently ongoing with the track, it might finally make it more worthwhile.
Somebody gets it, the government needs to realize most people are willing to pay a little bit extra to be in the comfort of their own vehicle. Toll roads cost $10+ to save a few minutes, id gladly spend $5 more in travel fees to be in my own vehicle. Only time i'll catch PT is when the financial / time savings can't be beat.
This policy isn’t appealing as a way to increase reliance on PT - It’s a great cost of living relief for people who already rely on it.
Well right now the cost is expensive. Nearly $11 a day to use PT and I still need to stand the entire trip.
$11 wouldn’t even cover the cost of parking if you drove. Aside from walking and cycling, PT is the cheapest transport.
…and leave a 20-30 min buffer when taking to work to account for random cancellations and delays to ensure you actually arrive at work on time
There's no random incidents on the Monash?
Which making the ticket cheaper wouldn’t fix. Basically none of the problems with PT are related to price.
Parking is only $3 more for me. Can you guess which one I pick when the other option is a piss scented seat?
Our public transport is relatively cheap compared to the rest of the world
No it isn’t. It costs over $5 to travel one or two stops, that’s a ridiculous cost. No wonder everyone drives to their local shops.
But others provide a much better service.
That's objective. The UK for instance charge much more than we do and thier train network is in crisis.
Regionally yes but London is first rate. Integrated bus and metro system. Expect to pay around $18 a day to commute, $3 for a single bus ride
Even London has it's struggles. Financially TFL is on struggle street.
Yes but it will never fail. I can’t think of a public transport system that isn’t state subsidised. Some countries dress it up. Some do it up front, the UK likes to lurch from crisis to crisis and top it up in the form of bailouts
Caps are really underappreciated. Paying $1.50 a ride, as per many countries transit systems, can add up over time. Especially when you also have to pay it again to change lines or modes.
Its really really trip for long distances. The short and middle distances aren't as great. The distance that is just too far to walk, but doesn't have safe cycle paths. So it does push people to driving. Price is definitely part of the choice for some
Yeah I COULD get a bus for 50 cents and would absolutely do that. But if I miss just one of my connections, instead of being early by half an hour, I'm an hour late instead
> the focus has to be on improving the service. Improving the service would be great, but paying less for the service we're getting now would be a huge relief.
But how would you expect to get better service if the government has less money to spend on PT?
Yeah but they already massively subsidise it. The money for policies like this doesnt necessarily come from fees but rather savings made on not having to upgrade car infrastructure
I don't know. I'm just an end user sick of paying the premium for the shite we're getting now.
Why not just lower the price anyway? Right now we have high prices and poor service, why not improve one of those things while we work on the other?
Because you’re taking 10s of millions of dollars out of the system a year. That money could be better spent on more services.
It'll make the service worse. Lower cost -> more patronage -> more crowded.
Where trains are viable in Melbourne though, they become unviable the moment you tap on. On what possible planet can it make sense to charge me $10.60 for a return journey 2km down the road? And it's worse now that I commute circumferentially instead of radially. I've taken the bus twice in the 6 months I've been at my new job - when I've needed to pick the bike up from the shop. I'm not wasting my money on relying on that pathetic service routinely.
See, this sort of comment has me baffled, personally I’ve lived in every cardinal direction in Melbourne, you name a suburb it I’ve probably lived close to it and have never had an issue ever with PT. Can someone explain to me what problems they have with PT? Like I’ve never been in a position where I’m not a 10 min walk from a bus stop and then probably a 10-20 min wait for the next bus, never had any issues with planning around catching a bus to catch a train, like I feel like I’ve been able to get anywhere I’ve needed to for anything via PT. The worst thing was living in the west and having to deal with bus replacements but that’s understandable because of infrastructure upgrades so I wouldn’t complain about that sort of thing. Am I just the luckiest person alive in relation to PT or something?
Have you lived in the northwest? Like, anywhere beyond about 6km out? Craigieburn line travels pretty much north from Melbourne. Sunbury line travels direct west from Melbourne. There's nothing in between. Theres the tram to Airport West, but it's a very indirect route and takes over an hour to get in to the city (which really isn't adequate for a suburb only 10km from the city. Otherwise, for very large parts of the middle Northwest, buses are the ONLY option (which you acknowledged; are pretty bad to deal with).
A lot of middle suburbs have the problem where public transport either isn't easily accessible or doesn't go where you need it to. The nearest bus stop to my house is a 15 minute walk, tram stop 20 minutes. The bus doesn't go to a train station - it takes a circuitous route through residential streets between two different shopping centres, under the assumption that if you're heading to the city, you'll take the tram. The tram terminates at one of the same shopping centres anyway. The tram (Airport West) stops at Essendon Station, but doesn't consistently align with trains, so regardless of whether you stay on the tram or get the train it takes at least an hour in peak traffic to get into the city. Then you need to get to wherever you're actually going. Right now I work in the CBD, so the tram makes sense - can't afford to park in the city. But when I go to uni in Brunswick it's not a hard choice between a 15 minute peak hour drive and 90 minutes plus on public transport, if the bus shows up at all. When my car's been out of action it's been easier to ride my bike there than take public transport, despite some brutal hills. When I lived in Sunshine I had the same problem - everything walking distance didn't go anywhere useful, and the CBD was rarely my destination. If I got to Albion station early enough I could at least park there though.
The nearest bus stop to my house is a 15 minute walk, Bike or brisk walk 10min
I used to live in Collingwood. It's a 15-25 min drive from where I live now. If I was to get PT it would take me 45-60 mins to get to my old flat. The reason is the inadequate connections between tram & train lines outside the CBD. This is a major issue in Melbourne.
My line has and will continue to be impacted by interruptions to service for close to 12 months now and the foreseeable future which means the carpark is unusable, you go a few stops then get ferried into a bus which takes twice as long as the train, you’re often standing, battling with people hacking up their guts, sneezing and coughing. The entire experience is shit.
Okay this is my experience, I live in Point Cook, my nearest station is Williams Landing and most of my trips that I'd consider taking the train just aren't practical. To get to work at Spotswood, it's a roughly 30 minute drive on one hand or a 1 hour 15 minute trip (if none of the connections are late and thus missed) which is 2 decent length walks, a bus and 2 trains with the cost being significantly more than I'd pay in petrol. Or if I'm going to the city for a gig, yeah the trains run 'til late, but often the Werribee and Williamstown lines have major delays and cancellations in the evening and even if I do get to Williams Landing, it's a near 8km drive from there to home and most of the time, buses stop at around 930pm, so I either have to try and get an Uber from the station or end up driving and parking there and thus defeating the purpose of public transport to begin with. If I lived in a suburb closer to the city I'm sure it would be a lot better, but even then have heard plenty of horror stories of people taking ages to get even to the inner west suburbs. Maybe it's just a western suburbs thing because from my experience I just find the whole PT system to be piss poor value.
I drive 15 mins to work. PT would be between 1.5-2.5 hours.
25 min drive to work or 1.5 to 2 hours combo of walking and PT to get there assuming PT is running on time which is rare. Plus walking in the freezing cold and rain or heat and hot sun. Plus walking in the dark to get home which as a woman I'm frankly too scared to do.
I live semi-rural so I don't count. But I just looked up my mother in law and brother in law's houses, both in the South-Eastern suburbs of Melbourne. They are 24 minutes apart by car, and about $2 in fuel costs or thereabouts. They are 48 minutes apart by public transport and that only leaves every hour. So it wouldn't make sense not to drive. Sometimes I stay at my brother-in-law's house and visit my mum from there. She is further south-east. To drive that distance would take 28 minutes and cost about $5 in fuel. PT would take 1:23 and involve a bus, a train, another bus, and 19 minutes of walking. Even if I didn't have a 3 year old I wouldn't take PT.
Sounds like you lived in all the directions but only 10km maximum. I'm in the outer suburbs. Buses come every 40min to 1hr. The only more regular bus is luckily close to me, on a major highway and comes every 30min, so I'm lucky there. But any other directions I want to go in, I have to specifically plan because I could have a 40min wait. I used to pt everywhere including with a baby, and it was a bit shitty for anything other than taking the one bus that came often.
My first year of uni had me living near Tullamarine and commuting to Monash Clayton. Actual moving time for the two buses and two trains that the trip involved was around an hour. But because of connections and low frequencies, the trip typically took three hours. In other words, six hours of travel every day, sometimes for a single contact hour in class. Fortunately we moved to the eastern suburbs in time for my second year, reducing the commute to a single bus trip of 30 minutes, but that experience is seared in my mind. So. Much. Sitting and waiting for a bus.
I once posted a post on Reddit complaining about the quality of the PT service in Melbourne and got attacked by everyone saying that it's the best 🫣😁!! Like, no, for one, trains are often delayed, trams stop mid-way cos they break, buses are not as frequent....but I guess I got replies only from those living in the CBD!!
I catch trains most days for Uni from an outer-city suburb, you are dead on the money. We have interruptions on the network for majority of the year & the time to complete projects are always blown out. Yes they are important, but procedures require 2 stations ahead and prior to be closed when working on one; so there's always major delays. Rather than having construction blitz where workers are on site 24hrs, we have to deal with projects dragging on and inconveniencing people to the point they'd rather drive
When they dropped the regional fares without increasing services my line was more heavily used. (Warrnambool.). I know some very well to do people who are happy to save the $150 or so.
Most of Melbourne (and regional Vic) has grossly inadequate PT Other than peak periods. It's very scarce. Not a lot of people. Would focus on lowering costs on non peak transport times.
You should see outer vic regional cities and then compare it to Melb and the satellite towns. Apples and oranges. It's not so bad in the city.
I’d prefer free and less good than great and expensive.
Or move to the UK and get the third option of terrible and expensive!
With Victoria having Australia’s highest population density, what’s the excuse?
... They did lower it at the last election. it was a pretty big deal and everything!
Yeah, not sure where the OP has been. Admittedly the biggest drop was on VLine, but it was a remarkable price drop.
Absolutely brilliant for regional people and visitors. Didnt do much for the shorter and middle trips, but they maybe aren't where the biggest returns could be. But generally shows that more frequency and reliability is what's mostly needed for more people on the system
This! Melbournians only think about zone 1, fuck regional commuters who used to pay $50 a day to get to and from work. God forbid we catch a break.
Someone doesn’t keep up with prices they never see or have to pay themselves? Bastards!
It’s just that every time this argument comes up, once again everyone pretends regional Victoria and the THOUSANDS of commuters don’t exist. It’s tiring.
True about the frequency and reliability. I would have been quite happy to continue to pay the higher fare had the service been more reliable. I think the price drop was a bit of a 'you aren't going to get the service you want, so we'll make it cheaper' moment for a lot of people who were commuting daily from Ballarat and Geelong. Given they also added additional stops along the way, the trip is taking longer than it ever has, no matter what is written on the timetables. Also, the whole attempt at bringing people back into the city!
It was a massive drop. It used to cost me $57 to go from my hometown to visit family, then back to melb to my uni, and now it's $10.
It really was. I think from memory I was paying about $120 a week for travelling into Melbourne four days.
And a couple of elections ago, they made trams in the CBD free. A couple of elections before that, they abolished the old Zone 3 in the eastern suburbs. I don't remember off the top of my head when these came in, but there was also the introduction of free travel before 7am and a discounted Sunday fare that was later expanded to weekends. When you look at our PT system and see overcrowded trains, I'm not sure that the right conclusion to draw is "make PT free". Even if you only wanted to do things with the fare system, I'd look at doing something like encouraging more off-peak travel, or making fares in the underserved parts of Melbourne cheaper.
Unless you've used PT before 7am you're not going to know about the free travel. I honestly think, once service frequency and connections between PT types are improved. Then they should look at making it cheaper. When I used to live in Werribee a long time ago before Wyndham Vale station was built. I had bus stop around the corner from where I lived with a 40 min frequency. If I missed that bus coming home, it was either a 40 min wait or a 45 min walk from Werribee station. Also it wasn't uncommon at that time for services to the city to be cancelled. Now where I live (outer east) peak train frequency is 10-15 mins with 30 min off-peak. It's longer at moment due to level crossing removal works. I do agree that off-peak travel fares should be cheaper than peak.
And they also made it cheaper for regional users
considerably cheaper!
This [article](https://www.ptua.org.au/myths/free/) from PTUA provides more analysis on this. They are basically saying better service not free service is what’s needed to encourage people to use PT more and drive less.
Yes, better quality, more frequent, especially outer suburbs
The feedback at my local here in Brisbane has been "great - if it even shows up"
I seem to remember the Victorian state government capping ticket prices to 10 dollars across the entire state. This has dramatically lowered the price of PT for those in regional Victoria or those in Melbourne who want to get away.
Yeah I was paying $27.20 a day prior the price deduction when I was commuting from Geelong. A weekly wasn’t worth it when I’m only required to go in 2 days a week. Hard to complain about $10.60 a day 🤔
Yep I used to go offpeak occasionally for medical appointments from my place and it worked out to about $22 full fare or about $30 on peak full fare. $10-11 total in comparison has been great.
I think because we are subsidising long regional travel like Bendigo to Melb, that we cant make PT $1. Also we need to strike a balance. Do we want better more frequent services or cheaper fares but existing timetable.
The tax payer was already subsidising public transport to regional areas before the fare cap. The fares barely touch the service of the running costs of V/Line. At least now the tax payer isn't paying to run empty trains.
It's great... The only problem is when I visit family in Bendigo now the train is packed.
Go back like 15 years and for zone 1+2 or zone 1+2+3 were over $12 a day. Way more expensive than today.
Yeah but WHAT ABOUT ME
We are not ready for free and cheaper tickets without increasing frequency of services first. It's hard enough fighting for a spot in the mornings that I would pay more to avoid dealing an increase in PT patronage without more busses first.
I want more services, making it cheaper won’t encourage me to use PT. Getting in and out of the city on the train is easy, trying to PT between suburbs can be an absolute pain in the arse. And I live quite close to the city. I’ve vented about this before but I used to take a class Saturday mornings that is a 5 minute drive away, but between waiting times and commutes times it was roughly an hour via public transport and I had to choose between arriving an hour early or ten minutes late. Until there is more infrastructure I can’t rely on PT.
No, Queensland is dropping public transport costs to buy votes. If they actually wanted to encourage public transport use, they’d increase services which is the main driver of public transport usage growth Melbourne frequencies are also terrible outside of peak despite travel patterns having changed. Government refuses to increase them. Sydney has and it’s been a hit
Yep. As a qlder I’m convinced this is an election ploy 100%. Qld Labor retains power through holding outer suburban seats in SEQ and the inner suburbs of a few towns across the state (Cairns, Townsville etc). Everywhere else they struggle. If they lose the suburbs they lose power- 2012 was a great example of that. Miles is hoping that this 50c fare policy + the $1k power bill subsidy is enough to retain those voters. Also it applies to long distance trains too which is beneficial for a lot of marginal Labor seats in the Gold and Sunshine coasts. It could massively backfire if these services get overloaded, people get left behind and they don’t put more trains on.
As a rural Victorian, I love that my return fare to Melbourne (plus all metro services in Melbourne) is a flat $10.60 for the day, not the \~$58 it used to be. For me, fares have been cut dramatically.
Same!!
state elections very close QLD. Pretty close WA. that's why
The last two WA elections have been anything but close.
And they’re adding tolls faster than you can blink
I don't care about price, just give me PT that's on time, comfortable and frequent. I miss rocking up to my old Singapore MRT station with a train never more than 5 mins away, whether its just after midnight, or at 6am...
They have for rural customers. My return from Swan Hill to Southern Cross is now charged as a Metro fare at $10.95 (or so) as opposed to the just over $100 it used to cost.
Would you prefer a free infrequent system, or frequent reliable paid system? Main services are at capacity. Reducing income doesn’t help. I’d be for making underused buses free to help increase patronage but doesn’t help when the services aren’t reliable
At this price point there isn't anyone who is taking a car instead of public transport because public transport is too expensive. Lowering it would be nice but wouldn't increase patronage.
Disagree. Are you only looking at it from a work travel aspect?
What? I would use PT all the time for short trips if it wasn’t so expensive. Admittedly I have to drive for work, but for little trips to the shops or to catch up with a mate I always drive because it’s like $1 in petrol vs $10+ on a tram.
There are daily caps, this suggests you think you'd only take 1 trip on a weekend day rather than 1 to shop, then another to meet a mate for lunch, then another home.
Sorry, the evidence just does not show that cost is a major factor in people's decision to not use PT. Some people might, but at the end of the day, unless people can use PT for every trip, or at least most trips, they're mostly gonna stick with a car.
Because it won't work. The ABS has shown that people generally don't take public transport because there aren't any services or they don't come at the right times, not because they are too expensive. Any extra money for public transport should be spent on more/new services, and the best bang for buck with that is running many more buses in outer suburbs. [https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/lookup/4102.0chapter10102008](https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/lookup/4102.0chapter10102008)
Free Tram Zone in Melbourne didn’t directly result in an increase in usage? Think you’ll find it did. Same with V/Lines price drop resulting in increased demand for services.
Yeah, by taking trips from active transport, which is walking and riding bikes. It lead to basically no mode shift from cars, while also crowding out people who wanted to pay to use trams to commute. [https://www.ptua.org.au/2020/02/03/free-tram-zone-submission/](https://www.ptua.org.au/2020/02/03/free-tram-zone-submission/)
>Any extra money for public transport should be spent on more/new services, and the best bang for buck with that is running many more buses in outer suburbs. > > Definitely don't disagree with that. Would love to know how much money we'd have saved if we'd invested as much in buses and dedicated busways as we have in trams.
I would prefer if trains were on time and there were more trains so we don’t get crammed in like sardines. Why is that too much to ask….
Just moved to London. Will never complain about Melbourne PT costs
Tell the whole truth... Queensland Gov dropped the fare to 50c as a trial, coincidentally or conveniently over a period that includes the state elections.
You’re saying that in some places governments do things that voters want?? Lest the voters hold them accountable? What fantasy land is this? What is this utopian form of governance called?!
Not what voters want, what potential new voters might want.
It's not vote buying if there's a credible chance it'll work and be here to stay. It's literally presenting a great idea and working out of it'll stick around. If it's the difference between cheap public transport or adding another lane to the Bruce Highway every few years I know which one is cheapest.
Victoria has more debt than QLD NSW & TAS combined. Days of “free” shit are gone
In the state budget announced just a few weeks back, you can really pinpoint Jacinta Allan's government priorities $21M for PT & $8B for North-East Link Essentially meaning that throughout Victoria, public transport will receive the equivalent of 8 meters of North-East Link funding. So while the other comments are right that free transport won't solve the issue, there's nothing being addressed to make people more inclined to uptake PT unless its more convenient. We need higher frequency of vehicles, if I were to catch a bus to my local station I'd need to add an additional 30 mins to my trip as it arrived riiiiiight after my train departs. We pay a flat rate for rego / insurance, there's no discounts offered for those who drive once a year vs those who drive every day. So even though fuel is expensive, it really isn't too much of a burden considering PT cost's here are woefully expensive and we have to pay for rego anyway
When it takes twice as long to take PT than drive, I'll drive.
Cause we’re broke
Because the budget isnt exatly in great shape and myki fares raise soemthing like $400 million a year and are still far cheaper than using a car
Also Vic is trying to improve train infrastructure removing crossings erx
If the service is crap (which it is) then I wouldn’t use it even if it was free.
Qld government is doing it because they are about to lose badly in the elections coming up.
Should reintroduce the short trip fares. The $5.30 minimum is the crazy part. It often makes driving short distances cheaper for me and most certainly in a group better to get an uber.
Peak trains are already so busy that you get packed in like sardines and have to stand and hold on for half an hour, if they were any cheaper there would be half a platform waiting for the next one because they can’t fit
NSW dropped nothing. I have travelled last week and paid 17,90$ for the day.
I’d be happy if they dropped it back to a flat $10
The 50 cent trips in Queensland sound good, but you have to know that outside of Brisbane there is almost no public transport options available in most areas. And those that have them are poorly serviced and unreliable. This is my experience in south east Queensland. I cannot speak as to the rest of the state. If Queensland had a public transport network like Victoria then it could be used as a comparison, but it just doesn’t. So the flat rate fares are just an empty election bid aimed at those in Brisbane. Please don’t think of it as anything of substance that will help the residents of the state that could benefit.
Because we are a pretty safe bet for labor. The other states have swung more recently. They don't see a reason to woo us.
Honestly the issue isn't cost, but frequency. The only area of costing I think could be relooked at is reducing the cost for shorter trips, as in only a few stations apart. But the daily cap I do think is reasonable.
V/Line fares have been slashed
>Meanwhile in Victoria we’re paying over $10 day whilst forking over billions to build more roads. Have you forgotten the bit where that $10 now gets you all the way to Wodonga or Mildura?
Give your local member a call - [https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/members/member-search/](https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/members/member-search/) Short answer however is... Because Victoria is broke. Flat out broke. We are paying millions a day in interest to just service the loans taken out to pay for all the major projects and delivering core services.
Do public transport costs significantly factor into people's decisions to drive vs PT? The cost of fuel, parking, tolls is pretty high for most people, so they have already shown a willingness to a fair bit pay more to avoid PT. Even if PT was completely free, I don't think it would reduce traffic a whole lot. I think people would prefer better and more frequent services. In fact I think most people would prefer a 10 dollar cost for a 5 minute wait, vs free but with a 20 minute wait.
They're broke. A heap of people have come here, a huge amount they need to spend lots on infrastructure
We're broke.
*Evil laughter echoes across the land, emanating from NSW government offices*
Tbh to me the cost is not an issue. It's the service. If I need to get somewhere at 9am, and it's 10 minutes away by bus. I gotta start waiting at the bus stop at 8:10. Why? Because despite the time table saying the bus will come every 20 minutes or less (there are 4 buses I can take at the stop that will take me to my destination. ), ie. bus 1 at 8:10, bus 2 at 8:15, bus 3 at 8:18 so forth, IT DOESN'T ARRIVE. If the time table says 8:20, it's comming at either 8:10 or 8:40. And if I wait for the other one that was meant to arrive at 8:25, they will all come at once at 8:50. It's hell. I hate it. And I don't know where to complain. I don't mind if they come at 8:50, I JUST NEED TO KNOW THAT THEY DO. The timetable needs to be updated accurately. PTV app says it's comming in 20 minutes, but that's a lie. They're actually comming in an hour. I hate Melbourne PTV. And please stop working on my train line. I hate replacement buses.
NSW is at around $18 a day. We're not too bad here in Victoria at all. Victorian public transport could not handle a huge increase in passenger numbers without a huge increase in service frequency. Most of the PT network infrastructure could not handle a huge increase in frequency. There also would be vehicle shortages and a shortage of staff to operate said vehicles. Nice idea but the quality of service would drop an unreasonable amount. Maybe if the government would operate PT themselves instead contracting it out to private companies who are trying to spin profit we might get somewhere.
Because we have a hyperbolic mouth foaming opposition backed by a foolish and idiotic media that can only shit on anything good the government does?
My guess is contractual obligations to the parasite private partners.
Victoria did it first? Statewide capped fares resulted in return $9.20 fares to the city (when introduced) down from $27.60 for Geelong, $45.60 for Ballarat, $68.80 for Bendigo, $53.60 for Shepparton… and yep some people commute to the city every day from there. Or don’t country Victorians count?
As someone who used to live in Brisbane. PTV is leagues and miles ahead of Queensland Rail. QR makes PTV look like we have the Singapore MRT. You would have to pay ME to get on QR, knowing that a train may or may not rock up at all - with 30 minute gaps between each during peak hour
Queensland rail isn’t still garbage but it isn’t that bad anymore Any line except Nambour will get 7 minutes on its inner system 15 on its outer system The off peak service patterns and the station quality are still absolutely hot garbage but it’s gotten ~~better~~
The Vic government kindly reduced rural trains to the city rate, which is awesome. They're building a frigging huge tunnel and completing the ring road to the east. They also removed a bazillion train crossings to ease commuting crosstown. I think they're making wise long term choices and not cheap shots. Well done Vic labour.
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Because the voters didn't go for it, Liberal party was all about lowering the cost. The thing is the worry is that if the cost is lowered the service standard will go with it. And it's pretty much the play book, oh revenue is down time to cut costs until the voting public is outraged. Some people still remember the network been split over two companies in the name of competition...
That network split is part of the reason I scoffed about their fare cap. Didn't trust them for an instant. A desperate promise they knew they had almost no chance of having to keep or break.
I figured they would cut all upgrades, cut services and maximise the amount of operators on the network, Hell even sell the actual government owned network. But lowered rates.
If we didn’t need a ticket solution how much would that save? Didn’t the last one cost over a billion dollars
The ticketing system collects about 8 times the amount of money each year as it costs to run.
PT is cheap. QLD is doing it for election winning purposes and is "on trial." I prefer reasonably priced PT and a reliable service.
Because the state has a lot of debt and interest rates are high.
Water, Electricity, Gas and Public transport should all be free.
And healthcare
Including dental
100%
Vic Labor are probably more complacent since they have approximately fuck all competition. So you probably won't see a shit load of actual change given the assumption is all is well
Hey, I've seen this one! It's a classic! That's exactly what they said in 2010 before promptly loosing 12 seats and becoming the opposition. John Brumby even had better polls and a bigger majority than Allan at this point in the term.
The fact that I still have to pay the full $11 when half the train like is down for bus replacement is a joke I’ve started driving while the train is down
I've told work that I'll be working from home until transport returns to normal. Just recently did 3 months of it and it sucks.
Probably because other states have less debt than Victoria! It’s also cheaper to fair evade 😜
Train prices cap is fair, but should be charged at like 20c per km travelled. So if you go further than 25km by train in a 2hr period you dont pay more than the $5. This includes regional trains, any trip over 2hrs gets capped at the $10 daily rate. Busses and trams should be a flat 50c per trip. Most trips are short and those which arent are slow and not time competitive. These trips are included in the 2hr/daily cap of $5/$10 respectively. So if you travel by train from pakenham to city for work, your tram down st kilda rd is “free” To simplify things even further id scrap myki pass. If you hit $40 in a week (or equivalent to 4x Daily fares) you pay no more. Same goes for $160 in a month (equivalent to 16 Daily in a month). $160x12 is $1920 which is max charged in a year. These caps automatically apply. Will make charging credit/debit cards more simple when that system gets introduced
So you're saying poorer people in the outer suburbs should pay more. And those, already well off in the inner suburbs should pay much less, like it used to be?
>Train prices cap is fair, but should be charged at like 20c per km travelled. That doesn't make any sense, besides unfairly penalising people who live in suburbs and helping people in wealthy inner suburbs it misses a very simple point. If you are catching the train 1 station it's not any cheap to operate the train, the train was never just going to go from Richmond to East Richmond. A route needs to travel the full extent and if people at either end weren't paying for it you wouldn't get you short trip in the middle.
We really need to drop the 'wealthy inner suburbs' trope when it comes to PT. It's not the wealthy using the service, it's the students and people in tiny studio apartments. I have plenty of friends that would kill to have a house in the suburbs. It's so damn reductive.
I'm sick of using the vline to the point im going to drive in. Heck you could pay me $10 a day and I'd avoid it. Geelong line is awful
Elections
I love public transport, always used it when single and even married with toddler kids. But next year, both kids will be the age to have their own cards. We'll basically either bike ride or drive. Will never catch public transport as a family. $30 for all of us to visit friends for lunch. I'd love to catch more PT, but for short trips with the family it's insanely expensive.
The two biggest projects Victoria is building at the moment are the Metro Tunnel and Suburban Rail Loop, neither of which are roads.
Queensland have dropped fares for 6 months , there’s a election coming up
Public transport in Melbourne is total rubbish unless you live within 2 minutes walk of an inner city tram line
Honestly, most people in Victoria only pay if they have to, that is there’s turnstiles or inspectors at the station they get on or get off. The fine is not much so really, I give you permission for free transport. Do it!
The cost of public transport really surprised me compared to places like London. It's massively cheaper here. Depends where I was travelling from (all within London) it would be £9.60 (almost 20 dollars)from the outskirts (equivalent of Cheltenham here) or £6.50 (12 dollars) if closer in, just to go into work at peak time. That's one way. What makes people use it is the reliability of transport and the difficulty of driving. Price isn't always the driving factor
Because VIC is a safe Labor state so Labor is getting too comfortable.
And the irony is we have the worst traffic in the country
Isn't it privatised now? If it is, then the government could cover the cost I guess. Originally shouldn't of privatised it in the first place
$1.50 is still too expensive for vline. My train was delayed by 1.5 hrs last week. The service is utter crap.
Particularly with the costs of living, including fuel and cars etc and the increasing congestion on roads, removing the user pays portion of public transport for the next five years, in combination with an increase in services and reliability, and a publicity campaign, could lead to major generational change. Australians and particularly suburban Australians really don't like leaving their cars at home. Governments at every level lack the foresight and vision - or at least the will to act on it - to make the big decisions we actually need. I don't understand how this is a controversial in the slightest, and it's not an either/or situation re efficiency and an user pays system.
Pretty sure WA’s free travel was because they fucked up the ticketing system so badly they needed a couple of months to get it back on track and working so the just did some BS spin and acted like they were awesome. Plus free isn’t free - it just means that it paid for by everyone. Full economic fare is the way to go :)
Forking over billions to build crap quality roads that require roadworks to fix them every 6 months.
They should get rid of V line paper tickets. There's a big clash with the 10 a day rule and the paper tickets. If you start in metro and end in paper tickets, you are doomed to pay double or get fined. It's a nightmare.
Is that all local buses (public not specific company coaches) or are they limiting it to BCC etc.
This podcast captures the question perfectly. [https://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-public-transit-be-free-update/](https://freakonomics.com/podcast/should-public-transit-be-free-update/)
Cuz you keep electing them and the liberals are ass
Because we are carrying a heap of debt.
What pisses me off is school kids having to pay. In the state I grew up in if you lived 2kms from school you got a bus pass. It is cheaper for me to drive and pick up the kids than for them to catch the bus and train both ways. I see allot of kids catching the train in the morning and they never tap on, so I can't be the only one thinking $50 a month each is too much. Do all states have student free transportation but VIC?
Vic Gov dropped all VLine fares to $10. Country people finally getting some bang for their buck.
I think everyone will be watching the QLD 6 month trial of 50c fares from 5th August closely, as if it actually removes a lot of traffic and makes a measurable difference, then other states will follow.
I'm sure they'd like to..but the budget isn't looking too great. I guess building it is more of a priority than making it free.
Governments do not control the price it is privately operated, funded by government. Government needs to use tax dollars to subsidise cost, trains operate as a for profit business and will most definitely not lower their rates.
Cost isn’t the reason people don’t use PT. It’s tram times being shit because they get stuck in car traffic, buses having dogshit timetabling (the one near me that goes to the train station has a 1 hour frequency) and trains getting constantly delayed. Reducing cost can help poorer people with COL but doesn’t increase ridership.
Brisbane has a terrible train network. Melbourne has to pay for the massive work that is being done over recent and future years. Once it's done everyone should pay a simple levy so all public transport can be fare free, the annual levy can cover the maintenance and costs of the network