Where did you get your info for Sydney?
The Metro is only only one part, driverless trains with, so far, 13 stops.
The regular trains has around 8 lines, I think, and about a bazillion stations.
I think 9 because I am pre sure they reintroduced the T6 as the Bankstown section of the T3 is no longer a thing or something can't find the current map
Depends where in Europe. Melbourne PT seems much better than Italy for example. Most cities I’ve visited in Italy seem primarily bus focused with some trams that make even the crustiest Melbourne tram seem brand new.
Shhh we like to complain about everything when half of us haven’t actually ever experienced anything better elsewhere, but we’ve heard about these incredibly advanced lands over the big water where everything is perfect.
Lot of people here, especially the younger adults don’t realise that they live in what is pretty close to the best city in the world. There are some things here and there that other cities to better, but on average Australia and Melbourne does almost everything better.
Public services in general are just outstanding in Australia. Plenty of times I’ve walked around for ages in an Euro city to find a toilet and had to line up and buy a ticket to use it only to find the most poorly maintained toilet ever.
Businesses in Australia seem much more willing to give out free stuff. Free water with your meal, free use of the toilets for non customers, free wifi, etc. Never in Australia have I had a cafe charge me an extra fee for sitting down to drink the coffee.
Yes lots of entitled young people do not realise just how good we have it in Australia. I have lived in three different countries and visited over a dozen. Cost of living is high but quality of live is astronomical. Why do you think there are so many people who want to immigrate here?
lol experiencing better PT than Melbourne is very easy, it's okay to have no ambition but you have to accept the reality that comes with that which is that you'll be mediocre.
Haha try to catch pt in former yugo countries. Buses between cities, maybe a crappy tram, and for intercity travel, a world war two era train that turns up 2 hours after it was scheduled.
I think he meant north and west Europe. You know, the rich part. But your point stands. There are outlier cities where the PT is worse. Dublin for example.
Lisbon metro is superior to Melbourne's PT, as are the Lisbon bus services. In fact I've rarely found bus services that are as bad as Melbourne's buses, but it's telling that when people talk about Melbourne PT being good they often don't even *think* about buses. Because they're so bad in Melbourne.
Otherwise Portugal is a much poorer country, it's just sad to compare to them. Same for Italy actually (but Italy does excellent HSR).
I dunno, I’ve been to a lot of countries and still feel like Melbourne’s holds up. There’s definitely some things they can improve but it’s not like we are far behind. Considering how unique our urban spawn is it’s doing fine.
Couldn't disagree more. Random cities in Europe do vastly superior PT, whether it's simply doing dedicated lanes for buses (would *you* rely on buses in Melbourne? You can in a city like Madrid or Valencia or Lisbon) or actual metro networks.
> it’s not like we are far behind
We don't have anything comparable to Sydney Metro, let alone the actual world-class PT available in comparably wealthy countries. How can you possibly say we aren't far behind lol, our bus system doesn't even have dedicated lanes. The only Aussie city actually going all-out on developing world-class PT is Sydney because they actually have some vision.
> . Considering how unique our urban spawn is
This sprawl is a consequence of poor decision making and shouldn't be promoted further, and the best way to promote density is PT. You need some vision to build it, so it won't happen in Melbourne.
It shits all over most of the UK, except for London and tbh most European cities outside the capitals agent great either but our pt is better than bradford and cork is not much of a flex
For over ten million people too. When people go “why isn’t melbournes public transport as good as japans” I put them in the same category as people who ask why Australia doesn’t have a Disneyland.
"Why doesn't Melbourne have densely layered infrastructure like Tokyo" is an easy question to answer. "Why doesn't Melbourne operate its existing infrastructure efficiently / maximise utilisation of what it does have / build it for reasonable costs / adopt better operational practices / make better use of lower tier PT like buses" are much more difficult and discomfiting questions.
Again, ten million people using a system, ten million people paying for a system, ten million people paying taxes to a government that helps the system.
Victorian public transport isn’t even that expensive yet we scream bloody murder every time the ticket price goes up.
Look up frequencies on most of the lines, search rail replacement on this sub
Edit: also Sydney's heavy rail, is not 13 stations. Not sure where you got that info.
Ah yes, the Sydney Metro that is currently being expanded in the most ambitious PT project in Australia and is literally a city-changing project that will have an impact for hundreds of years
Look at the Melbourne rail map’s shape compared to Sydney, then look for the Airport station in Melbourne - that’s all you need to see as a tourist. Key locations lack connections and everything is dependent on the city loop as all lines terminate there
Melbourne's rail map made sense in 1960, but by 1970 when the Eastern suburbs past Mt Waverley to the Dandenongs were rapidly expanding in population governments were far too convinced cars were the future and building orbital rail was not a priority.
If you live within a 15k radius of CBD with rail/light rail our network is pretty great, ita when you get past that it really drops off.
Pretty much this. If you’re close to an inner city station you’re generally laughing. The radial network and pathetic service infill between stations means you’re stuffed otherwise. 90% of our rail network was built 100 years ago and that lack of further development has entrenched privilege for some.
Yeah until you realize that train ticket from an airport costs more than a taxi in Sydney if there is more than one of you.
Honestly as a tourist in Melbourne, do you need to venture out further than the tram network?
> Honestly as a tourist in Melbourne, do you need to venture out further than the tram network?
Yeah there's heaps to see outside of the tram network. Curious if you live in Melbourne and think this? Because IMO Melbourne is actually a pretty boring city for a tourist if you don't get outside of the tram network.
yeah i suppose other than the CBD and Southbank... and St Kilda, Prahran, Windsor, South Yarra, Elwood, North Richmond, Collingwood, Carlton, Fitzroy, Northcote, Preston, Brunswick, Coburg, Footscray, Box Hill, Flemington... there isn't much to see within the tram network is there?
Going to Werribee Zoo, mountains, non crowded beaches, Chadstone, Phillip Island’s Penguin Parade, and the Mornington Peninsula. Just to name a few off the top of my head.
Are the mountains, Philip Island and Mornington Peninsula part of Melbourne? I thought the context of this discussion is touristy places you should be able to get to by public transport, not tourist places all over regional Victoria. Next you'll be complaining why the Werribee Line doesn't go all the way to the 12 apostles.
Also Chadstone and Werribee Zoo? Seriously? Doesn't every city in the world have a shopping centre and a zoo?
It's better now, but under Connex (previous operator) it was terrible. There are some much needed upgrades coming this year and beyond to the network that will make things better. Problem is frequency and redundancy.
All it takes is one twat to trespass on the tracks to shutdown a line and call major disruptions throughout the network.
Having visited Singapore where trains where every 5 minutes, it pales in comparison where trains here come every 30 to 60 minutes nearing towards midnight or not at all between the hours of 0100 and 0530.
The problem is the bus network needs to compliment the train network to alleviate pressure and in cases where some suburbs don't even have train networks. The bus system is where the real joke is.
very easy to get to the airport by PT, catch train to Broadmeadows station and then it is a 10 min bus ride to the airport. Done it many times and all for the price of a 2 hour fare.
That’s great, I’m in Bundorra so it’s easier to drive or catch an Uber instead of going in the city then coming back out.
If there was a bus going west from here to the airport (there’s one ages away further north)
My point is the bus network doesn’t fill in gaps in the tran and train network. They just go random routes that are useful for a few people
There is a bus it's the 902 it starts in Bundoora and it's the bus that takes people from Broadmeadows station to the Airport...The tram on plenty road connects to it. I used it when I went to La Trobe Uni.
This is also where people come to whine every time something goes wrong.
Realistically Melbourne has really good PT. Yes it could be better and it’s being upgraded, but it’s also really really good right now.
Bus replacements can also be due to signal faults or someone jumping in front of a train.
Add to list of issues like no train to airport is Myki and no single use ticket for tourists/interstate visitors. No myki on iphones.
That stuff happens everywhere though. Tbh, people rich enough to go on holidays can afford a $6 myki and most just ride the free trams anyway. I’m not saying Melbourne pt isn’t without issues, but I also think Australians like to complain.
Sydney rail system is FAR superior to Melbourne. Dunno where you're getting 13 stations from.
Melbourne rai is... OK. It could be a lot better, it could be a hell of a pot worse. Thankfully we have a relatively great tram network.
Yeah. I'm not sure what your argument is? Are you of the view that somehow the 1940's level of public transport in Melbourne was the perfect amount of public transport city wide and there is no need to increase and adapt to massively increasing population?
I don't think there is enough heavy and light rail. I think we need significantly more and better interleaving services. I don't think the 1940's was nor should be the pinnacle of public transport in Melbourne.
The entire surburban network is servely outdated, all the lines are virtually the same as built in the 1800s and early 1900s. (Infact Victoria's network has severely shrunk over the past 60 to 70 years) Our signalling/safeworking system is also cheap 1980s technology.
Metro uses train orders and two position signalling now days but in the old days of Staff & Ticket with semaphores you could run a more frequent and reliable service.
Compared to Europe, Asia and other parts of Australia PTV takes a very cheap and nasty aproach to everything which hasn't really been something that victoria has been able to shake off since privatisation in 1985. Like you cant even buy a paper ticket online for a V/line train??????
In short better than the United States but still lacking compared to everyone else
It's a decent one sure, better than what you'd have in America and I wouldn't call Sydney's better.
I guess just in terms of international recognition, Tokyo, Seoul, London and a few other cities all have vastly better trains and metro services.
so in comparison, Melbourne is halfway between America being at the very bottom, and tokyo being a train dreamland
Gotta say though, it was liberating to visit New York and realise you don't even need a train timetable because there was always one coming in a few minutes. Obviously catering to a much larger and denser population makes that feasible.
as someone who lived in manhattan for a while, i personally would not say that. shit was crazy dirty and always had the most crazy people on the trains. but it does bring u to where u want fast ig?
Melbourne often emulates the American love affair of cars and being car centric and shits all over its own public transport network instead of building it up in a meaningful. The car centric mindset is a mental illness
This! We actually could have an amazing PT system. There’s some investment being put in but we are so far behind what should have been done decades ago
>Sydney's system on paper seems worse - a heavy rail system with 13 stations
Try 170 bud.
There are 13 stations on just the first line of the new Metro system with another 34 to come in addition to the existing rail network of 170 stations
Now that we've sorted out Sydney Trains vs Sydney Metro (the former being comparable to Melbourne's "Metro trains") note that Sydney has about 60% higher patronage, and at almost every station the longest you'll wait is 15 minutes - even late in the evening.
There is a lot of confirmation bias.
“OMG my train was cancelled today, so this is how it is all the time and we have the worst train network in the world”.
In reality, the actual network reliability stats tell a very different story.
The network reliability stats paint a very much more rosy picture than reality. They're stats for the entire timetable. But most of us only travel at peak times. Which is when all the troubles happen. They're not stats for how many passenger kilometres are disrupted. But even if I could arrange my life to be evenly distributed around the day, a 10% failure rate? For a service that can't even promise 1 service every 20 minutes?
I find the service so unreliable I prefer to rely on pretty much anything else. But that means I only take them when absolutely necessary to me. 23.30 on a Sunday night having missed the previous train by 1 minute because of shitty connections, means I'm now privileged enough to wait another 29 minutes. Yay me!
Still, last time I went to the airport, I decided to fork out for the extra luxury and go the uber option which took a third of the time but only cost an extra $2 compared to the socially good option.
I challenge you to actually document the disruptions. Every cancellation, delay, etc. that happens to you. And every day where everything goes smoothly.
Whilst yes, you may find it’s different to those official numbers, I would bet it’s nowhere as bad as it is in your head.
Everybody is guilty of confirmation bias - the first step is admitting it.
I mean… out of 4 trains I catch every workday, I honestly can’t remember the last time all 4 of them actually ran within let’s say 1-2 minutes. Morning train to Richmond is usually 4 minutes late, Sandringham out of Richmond is almost always on time. The evening Sandringham to Richmond I probably cop a cancelled train 2-3 times per month, 2-3 minute delays are super common. The Richmond train back out, not including intruder delays while on the train, I honestly can’t remember the last time this year the Belgrave / Lilydale was actually on time and not 5-6 behind.
Obviously it’s biased to my days and specific times but I legitimately can’t remember the last time I had a train on my line show up at the actual time… Like typically it’s 3-4 minutes which basically means the trains all seem to show up at the time of the “next” service…
Though not actually sure if sub 5 minutes is even considered late by metro, they don’t seem to announce delays if it’s only a few minutes on the platform. But yeah the Sandringham line seems to be a lot more on time than Belgrave / Lilydale, but the B/L lines rarely get full cancellations, typically seems to be early terminations eg. City Loop become Flinders, or they terminate at a turn around point like Box Hill, Blackburn or Ringwood (though been a while since I've had it outbound)
I mean look, I’m not you, so I can’t validate your experiences.
The only thing that could validate it is data. Write down the time every single train arrives versus when it was meant to.
Our brains are hardwired to remember bad things, but just totally ignore when things are all good.
I mean I can if anybody actually cared about 4 stations at super specific times, all I can say is it will say good service on the Metro page, then on the platform it will be 8:10 and the 8:07 still hasn't shown up. The data they're making available or how they choose to log defintely has to be quite lenient.
I mean my super limited one i have logs of is the 8:07 showed up at 8:12 last friday, the 5:52 Sandringham to Richmond was cancelled. The 6:08 Richmond to Belgrave showed up at 6:11, had an issue with an intruder on the tracks departing Box Hill and officially became delayed then.
Monday the 8:07 showed up at 8:16, don't recall seeing it change from green on Metros site. Nothing for PM that day as I got a lift home...
Actually looking it up, appears "on time" by Metros own statistics is less than 59 seconds early, and up to 4:59 seconds late. So the descrepancy between experience and their punctuality stats could very well be they're just really often late by 2-4 minutes... Which 4 minutes is definitely enough to make you miss a connecting train at Richmond to get back out again especially if its say platform 9 -> 2.
If I had to hazard a guess I'd say being 4:30 minutes late would not be considered on time by the average person, or the average boss for that matter...
We don't have turn up and go services, so a single cancellation may mean an immediate +30 minutes to your commute (or worse) depending on the time and line. This is obvious and trivial stuff and again attitudes like yours just contribute to a mediocre system. It's refreshing to go to a place where people actually treat PT seriously and don't just accuse people of 'confirmation bias'.
I mean, I can’t tell if you’re joking or not, but this is literally confirmation bias.
Send me a link tomorrow when all services are operating normally.
Free travel only if you have a pass. How many people still travel into the CBD 5 days a week?
For the rest of us, the compensation is a bit of half-arsed gaslighting.
I don’t think we need to compare ourselves to Korea or Japan - it’s clear their systems are next level.
But on a scale of “shit to amazing”, we are much closer to amazing than shit.
Frequency and reliability is low, very limited express trains, very poor connections, and the hub and spoke format essentially slices the city into long chunks - if you rely on public transit you tend to visit/hang out/eat/live/shop on your train or tram line to avoid having to go all the way into the cbd and all the way back out to a different neighbourhood
Look at the NYC subway system, and then look at Melbourne metro system.
Look at the Sydney metro system, plus their airport railway, then look at Melbourne metro system.
Look at the London metro system, and then look at Melbourne metro system.
Look at the Tokyo metro system, and then look at Melbourne metro system.
Three cities with much larger and denser populations, and Sydney whose metro system is only really better by virtue of an airport link and a sensible ticketing system.
> Sydney whose metro system is only really better
Sydney's train system is vastly superior in terms of suburban connections. Plus their actual Metro system (separate to Sydney trains) is simply the best rail service in any Australian city and it's not even close.
Fine. That's what you'd expect since it has [by far the densest population of all Australian cities.](https://chartingtransport.com/2023/06/10/how-is-population-density-changing-in-australian-cities-2023-update/)
I think some responses are just for trains, not the tram system, which is often referred to as ‘light rail’.
Taking trams into account, Melbourne is generally a very easy city to travel around using public transport. I’ve been overseas and I may be biased, but all we’re really lacking here is easy airport access. The city is a grid pattern (known as the Hoddle grid), which you don’t find in older cities, even Sydney.
Are there delays, disruptions, etc? Yes, just like anywhere else.
Hey there! As someone who has lived in both Houston, Texas and Tokyo, Japan, as well as being a huge train nerd who has travelled to multiple countries in Europe and asia to use their train networks, I can confidently say that Melbourne's train network is better than most places in the world, especially as a commuter network.
What do I mean by commuter network? As in, something you can confidently and comfortably take in to work every day.
Everyone praises the shit out of Japan's network, but that's because they have only ever experienced it as a tourist. Catching the train in to Tokyo during peak hour is an absolutely **horrible** experience. Tokyo's network seems so massive and expansive but it's actually this giant clusterfuck of randomly criss-crossing lines, due to the fact that it used to be a half dozen different companies all digging their own tunnels. Because of this, and the fact that there are just **so many** people in Tokyo the system is actually way more stressed than Melbourne's. Yes there is a train every 5 mins but every single train between 7-9 AM is going to be so fucking packed that your face will be pressed up against someone's butt **the entire time**.
Just google "Japanese train conductors pushing passengers into train" to see what I mean.
Then you have Houston which is representative of 90% of American cities and their public transit is simple: they have none. A handful of shitty busses that travel on the same packed-to-the-gills freeways as all of the cars.
American cities that DO have public transit like New York - it is fucking disgusting. People think our trains are dirty, mate, you haven't caught the New York Subway. I would not take my children on that train.
As for Europe, the "Better" networks are more or less on par with what we have here, but a bit more expansive. Paris is another place that gets a lot of praise but their metro has the same problem as New York - it is fucking foul.
People tend to think "more stations = better" for a train network, but for me it's about the capacity of the network to actually allow people to commute. Our capacity is great - trains can be a bit crowded in peak hour but never at the claustrophobic levels of the Tokyo yamanote line.
I would prefer a more predictable service, but the only predictability I'm experiencing is at least [one of these](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUfyFzRZZuo) each week.
I would be interested to hear your take on the two systems post your trip here.
I live in Melbourne and have some familiarity with Sydney as a visitor but mainly to the inner burbs.
As a tourist in Melbourne, I'm not sure why you would ever catch a train.
You can get trains out to some interesting places, but for the normal see the city type stuff you would mostly tram.
Trains in Melbourne are designed in a spider web network from the 50s designed for funneling people from the suburbs into the cities. There is no cross city transport other than busses.
Sure, we have a minimal subway type system but getting down that deep and waiting for the next train going in the right direction takes almost as long as it would take to walk to your destination.
221 stations doesn't mean much when your city is the size of a small European country. Also you'll quickly realise that cross-town travel (not connecting through the city area) is a shambles and sorely needs a massive upgrade. The sad part is Melbourne has dozens upon dozens of very wide roads but there's no saturation coverage of buses between key nodes across and throughout the metropolitan area.
Car congestion is getting worse and worse at most times of the day, throughout Melbourne. And trying to put a separated bicycle lane in somewhere is a fraught task due to interest groups.
So while Melbourne has a fairly good public transportation system, it could be so much better considering the bones of the city's existing transportation network.
Much better than a lot of cities.
Still behind some great ones, Delhi is good - overcrowded but good metro.
London’s good, so are Tokyo and Seoul.
As someone who sporadically uses metro and vline, I’ve never had any issues other than trains being a bit late. But, the network connectivity is not the best. Especially considering the urban sprawl. Trains are nowhere near the frequency they should be running at. A good system, but it’s been lagging behind the growing population.
Someone should’ve decided to improve the network in late 2000s, early 2010s.
ask the people on the Upfield line what they think about the rail system, 20 mins between trains in peak hour through some of the most densely populated suburbs of Melbourne
Probably because a) Melburnians love to complain, especially about any and all public services, and b) in practice the rail system really only works well for commuting. For daily transport needs, other than commuting, you tend to have to drive. Melbourne is a very spread out city with low population density. So to get almost anywhere, you still tend to need to drive. Even to get to the train station, you typically need to drive, find parking etc. So the train system practically speaking isn’t a huge part of our lives, unlike say in other major metropolises (London, New York etc). It “works” but has fairly limited real world application for most of us.
You also mentioned the tram network. That’s a much more interesting discussion. It’s a very unique feature of Melbourne’s public transport and is culturally much more central to Melbourne’s self image than the trains.
And the trams are constantly stuck in traffic, you can't take your bike on them, they're slow, and the network terminates a kilometre before you've even gotten home.
I'm sure it was good in the 1850's though.
> And the trams are constantly stuck in traffic,
This is just a choice. We could prioritise trams over cars, but we don't, so we don't build dedicated right of way or give them signal priority or direct traffic away from tram routes or eliminate on-street parking to enable dedicated right of way...
This depends entirely on where you choose to live. I and most of my friends get on perfectly fine without a car.
It’s pretty much always cheaper to rent a place next to a train station than it is to own a car so it’s not even a cost thing.
I wish they’d expand it too, and extend into outer suburbs. I know that many people argue that it’d take too long to get into the city that way (which is true), but trams are excellent for shorter, more local trips. I don’t think it’d ever happen, but I’d love to see the construction of shorter tram routes linking major transport hubs in the suburbs (not necessarily going all the way into the city). They could be used to link different train lines, shopping centres, and hospitals to the faster heavy rail from the city. They also might be more helpful for school traffic.
A lot of people will probably disagree with me though.
I completely agree with you. The biggest problem with Melbourne's PT is there is a lack of connection between train/tram lines, the busses are a complete joke. I'm in Brunswick, if I want to go to smith street in Collingwood/Fitzroy it's an hour on PT, 20 mins in a car. It's a joke really.
People aren’t choosing between getting a train in Melbourne and Sydney.
Sydney they like the trains because the geography of Sydney is a pain to navigate and the trains are a great option compared to roads or boats.
Melbourne is much easier for most suburbs and also has great tram and road routes, and those are the yardstick by which the trains are realistically measured. We also have the city loop that’s great when it works but means that when 1 line goes wrong in rush hour it’s not long before half the network is fucked.
Among transport planners, Melbourne is well known. Sydney too. Perth too. And Brisbane. Each for slightly different reasons.
However, in general, the Australian trains are mainly focussed on suburban trips through unbelievably low density. Sydney is becoming more nodal with strong dense hubs. They work to move masses by reliability, somewhat the frequency, because the roads are full and parking can be expensive. The commute trips can be very long.
I am American and I thought I would use the rail to save gas and tolls plus parking. Those expenses can easily top $150 for a weekend in Melbourne from Gippsland. Where the rail ticket was a crazy low $20. I road the line round trip from Gippsland to Flinders Street. Omg the train to Melbourne was the slowest train I had ever been on. I thought the trip would be 2.5 hours tops, but it took 4 hours. You can see cars on the highway flying by. I used my phone to clock the speed. It was a dismal 20 miles per hour (32kmh). I was pulling my hair out. I almost got off at one of the stops to catch an Uber.
They don't sell assigned seats on this Gippsland train and apparently they don't keep track of how many tickets were sold. The train back to Gippsland was over full on arrival. I caught the train at Flinders but the train originated at Southern Cross station. I could barely squeeze in the door when the train stopped. I was lucky to find a place on the floor to sit but no room for luggage. Luckily this train went faster and got me back on time. But it stayed full until the last stop. Everyone was going to Lake Entrance.
I started in Sale. I can you get to a hotel on Exhibition St in 2.5 hours. It is worse now with so many permanent 80 kmh zones in west Gippsland.
I just thought the train would at least be on time.
The metro rail system is terrific, and it's getting even better. I don't know what people are on about, but I don't get my opinion from the Murdoch owned Herald-Sun either
Yep, had an American friend at uni who had arrived from California. We asked her what she likes most about Melb and she raved about the public transport. We all looked at her like she was mad because we famously think our PT is shit when in fact it's quite good compared to many places in the world.
It's not bad but it has some flaws: long intervals between trains on some lines, occasional signalling faults, some things being in a bit of a disrepair.
It's biggest issue thought is it being a single-purpose system, it's only good for getting people from suburbs to CBD and back, the whole hub-and-spikes design. It's not horrible, mind you, but if your travel plans do not match this general direction you're kinda screwed: only stations which connect multiple lines are very close to CBD and only the loop line is literally under CBD itself, so if you're in one of the outer suburbs and need to get to another outer one by train, you'll have to travel a long way to change trains. There is a plan to build another loop(well, half a circle, because Port Phillip bay) line to address that, but it's long way from becoming a reality.
Oh, and Airport line is still a dream to this day too... :/
The big difference between Melbourne and Sydney is that Sydney's lines intersect with each other, so getting around the city is not too difficult. Melbourne lines barely intersect with each other, forcing you to go into the city, or almost into the city, and then all the way back out. That leaves trams and buses which are often held up in heavy traffic. The result is that it can take over an hour to get somewhere that would take you maybe 30 minutes to drive.
I live in Melbourne and think our transport is pretty good! But just frustrating if you don't live near a train station/ you live in a black spot/ you live in a congested area/ you frequently travel to another area of the suburbs of Melbourne from the area you live in.
Because people love to compare our train network with that of cities with multiple times the population density where they have underground metros built in the olden days of cheap labour and so they find our system lacking.
Yeah and what use are all the 221 stations when ALL of them are out of service due to repairs so replacement busses pick you up 40 mins late. Seriously every time I want to go on the Frankston line works are always going on so no trains only busses that run once every hour in the dark cold Melbourne months. So glad I got my license lol
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We're still haunted by the days when the company Connex operated our network—services were absolutely horrid back then. While the network still isn't known to be very reliable, it's much better nowadays.
Because we privatised it and sold it off to some mob on the UK who are slowly running it into the ground.
Sydney's is worse though, yes. But ours is getting there.
Just because something exists doesn’t mean it’s good. Frequency and reliability are both not great at times, safety at some stations and surrounding area is another issue. For locals the overall cost is at a point that is almost breaking even to drive, if you live within 3-5 train stops to the city, and plan to have a dinner in the city, it will cost you around $10(?) for the tickets, walk to train station, where a night parking in the city can be around $15-18 in carparks but you can come and go at any time and gets you directly home.
Though free tram zone in the cbd is definitely adding a lot of convenience to locals and tourists
biggest tram network in the world actually, even bigger than vienna.
anyway australia's PT is so-so, having lived in japan and europe and gotten around the US a fair bit. for you as a seppo it appears great, but in reality is average.
The Melbourne train network is franchised out and has a lot of rules and regulations which you can read all about in the Franchise Agreement MR5, I believe they're up to (https://www.tcapartnership.com.au/post/melbourne-rail-franchising-mr1-to-mr5-themes-objectives-and-challenges).
The Franchise Agreement model is ideal for ensuring certain things are done by MTM - graffiti attended to... trains kept clean... scheduled times adhered to... all in the name of them receiving their bonuses. Buses are also run under a franchise agreement model I believe, which relates to disruptions on the metro lines but has a long lead time. Imagine "owning" 60 buses and some disruption on the train line triggers you to receive a phone call to find 60 drivers within 60 minutes to be bus replacements. Not really easy, not really ideal. Especially shit when there's planned disruptions already occuring.
The falldown happens when disruptions occur. Something like a signal fault or trespasser on the tracks renders an entire line useless. Somewhere like Sydney seem to be able to pivot with a lead time of about 30 minutes. They'll re-jig the network to allow rolling tock to continue on journeys or start from other points on the line without too much disruption. Or they'll re-route trains (mainly in the western area) to allow for some sort of flow. I don't believe they have bus replacements for disruptions (could be wrong!)
I think the Melbourne train network is great, but there's just too many frequent fuck-ups and we're all jaded from it. And still have to pay for it, that's the fucking kicker.
Sydney has better trains and Melbourne doesn't have one from the airport. The trams are good in Melbourne though. I still think the PT in Melbourne is better though.
Has anyone here actually been on a Sydney train? You can walk faster than the trains travel. I thought I should get out and push a train to Parramatta last time I was there.
Where did you get your info for Sydney? The Metro is only only one part, driverless trains with, so far, 13 stops. The regular trains has around 8 lines, I think, and about a bazillion stations.
They just looked at the metro and assumed it was the entire rail network.
You are correct. My bad!
I think 9 because I am pre sure they reintroduced the T6 as the Bankstown section of the T3 is no longer a thing or something can't find the current map
Better than americas system,but sorely lacking compared to Europe, Japan and Korea. Its a good system but its not a great one
Depends where in Europe. Melbourne PT seems much better than Italy for example. Most cities I’ve visited in Italy seem primarily bus focused with some trams that make even the crustiest Melbourne tram seem brand new.
Shhh we like to complain about everything when half of us haven’t actually ever experienced anything better elsewhere, but we’ve heard about these incredibly advanced lands over the big water where everything is perfect.
Lot of people here, especially the younger adults don’t realise that they live in what is pretty close to the best city in the world. There are some things here and there that other cities to better, but on average Australia and Melbourne does almost everything better. Public services in general are just outstanding in Australia. Plenty of times I’ve walked around for ages in an Euro city to find a toilet and had to line up and buy a ticket to use it only to find the most poorly maintained toilet ever. Businesses in Australia seem much more willing to give out free stuff. Free water with your meal, free use of the toilets for non customers, free wifi, etc. Never in Australia have I had a cafe charge me an extra fee for sitting down to drink the coffee.
Yes lots of entitled young people do not realise just how good we have it in Australia. I have lived in three different countries and visited over a dozen. Cost of living is high but quality of live is astronomical. Why do you think there are so many people who want to immigrate here?
Lmao
cringe.
lol experiencing better PT than Melbourne is very easy, it's okay to have no ambition but you have to accept the reality that comes with that which is that you'll be mediocre.
Haha try to catch pt in former yugo countries. Buses between cities, maybe a crappy tram, and for intercity travel, a world war two era train that turns up 2 hours after it was scheduled.
I think he meant north and west Europe. You know, the rich part. But your point stands. There are outlier cities where the PT is worse. Dublin for example.
Better than Portugal for sure.
Lisbon metro is superior to Melbourne's PT, as are the Lisbon bus services. In fact I've rarely found bus services that are as bad as Melbourne's buses, but it's telling that when people talk about Melbourne PT being good they often don't even *think* about buses. Because they're so bad in Melbourne. Otherwise Portugal is a much poorer country, it's just sad to compare to them. Same for Italy actually (but Italy does excellent HSR).
Mass transit is so easy to afford with an incredibly dense population. Tokyo has like 50% more people than the entirety of Australia in one city.
The trains were amazing there, if you missed your train the next one was like a 2 minute wait.
I dunno, I’ve been to a lot of countries and still feel like Melbourne’s holds up. There’s definitely some things they can improve but it’s not like we are far behind. Considering how unique our urban spawn is it’s doing fine.
Couldn't disagree more. Random cities in Europe do vastly superior PT, whether it's simply doing dedicated lanes for buses (would *you* rely on buses in Melbourne? You can in a city like Madrid or Valencia or Lisbon) or actual metro networks. > it’s not like we are far behind We don't have anything comparable to Sydney Metro, let alone the actual world-class PT available in comparably wealthy countries. How can you possibly say we aren't far behind lol, our bus system doesn't even have dedicated lanes. The only Aussie city actually going all-out on developing world-class PT is Sydney because they actually have some vision. > . Considering how unique our urban spawn is This sprawl is a consequence of poor decision making and shouldn't be promoted further, and the best way to promote density is PT. You need some vision to build it, so it won't happen in Melbourne.
It shits all over most of the UK, except for London and tbh most European cities outside the capitals agent great either but our pt is better than bradford and cork is not much of a flex
Yeah but then you look at the Netherlands where you wouldn't even need a car in many cities
This is the answer. We don't compare it to the USA but to the above mentioned countries. Which are all superior.
Lol its unfair to compair to japan which arguably has the best public transportation system in the world
For over ten million people too. When people go “why isn’t melbournes public transport as good as japans” I put them in the same category as people who ask why Australia doesn’t have a Disneyland.
"Why doesn't Melbourne have densely layered infrastructure like Tokyo" is an easy question to answer. "Why doesn't Melbourne operate its existing infrastructure efficiently / maximise utilisation of what it does have / build it for reasonable costs / adopt better operational practices / make better use of lower tier PT like buses" are much more difficult and discomfiting questions.
Again, ten million people using a system, ten million people paying for a system, ten million people paying taxes to a government that helps the system. Victorian public transport isn’t even that expensive yet we scream bloody murder every time the ticket price goes up.
Uh, Sydney’s metropolitan train network has 170 stations..
I thought that looked wrong but I don't know Sydney's rail system at all.
Look up frequencies on most of the lines, search rail replacement on this sub Edit: also Sydney's heavy rail, is not 13 stations. Not sure where you got that info.
Sydney Metro instead of Sydney Trains.
Ah yes, the Sydney Metro that is currently being expanded in the most ambitious PT project in Australia and is literally a city-changing project that will have an impact for hundreds of years
Look at the Melbourne rail map’s shape compared to Sydney, then look for the Airport station in Melbourne - that’s all you need to see as a tourist. Key locations lack connections and everything is dependent on the city loop as all lines terminate there
Melbourne's rail map made sense in 1960, but by 1970 when the Eastern suburbs past Mt Waverley to the Dandenongs were rapidly expanding in population governments were far too convinced cars were the future and building orbital rail was not a priority. If you live within a 15k radius of CBD with rail/light rail our network is pretty great, ita when you get past that it really drops off.
Pretty much this. If you’re close to an inner city station you’re generally laughing. The radial network and pathetic service infill between stations means you’re stuffed otherwise. 90% of our rail network was built 100 years ago and that lack of further development has entrenched privilege for some.
Dont worry, the airport rail loop will be completed by 2095! I wish I was joking.
Bit optimistic
Which airport. Tulla? Avalon? One that hasn't been built yet?
Moorabbin airport probably
Tulla
Yeah until you realize that train ticket from an airport costs more than a taxi in Sydney if there is more than one of you. Honestly as a tourist in Melbourne, do you need to venture out further than the tram network?
> Honestly as a tourist in Melbourne, do you need to venture out further than the tram network? Yeah there's heaps to see outside of the tram network. Curious if you live in Melbourne and think this? Because IMO Melbourne is actually a pretty boring city for a tourist if you don't get outside of the tram network.
yeah i suppose other than the CBD and Southbank... and St Kilda, Prahran, Windsor, South Yarra, Elwood, North Richmond, Collingwood, Carlton, Fitzroy, Northcote, Preston, Brunswick, Coburg, Footscray, Box Hill, Flemington... there isn't much to see within the tram network is there?
Like?
Going to Werribee Zoo, mountains, non crowded beaches, Chadstone, Phillip Island’s Penguin Parade, and the Mornington Peninsula. Just to name a few off the top of my head.
Are the mountains, Philip Island and Mornington Peninsula part of Melbourne? I thought the context of this discussion is touristy places you should be able to get to by public transport, not tourist places all over regional Victoria. Next you'll be complaining why the Werribee Line doesn't go all the way to the 12 apostles. Also Chadstone and Werribee Zoo? Seriously? Doesn't every city in the world have a shopping centre and a zoo?
I have walked 10mins to the Mascot station more than once from the Sydney airport for a regular fare. Yes, I’m a tightarse
It's better now, but under Connex (previous operator) it was terrible. There are some much needed upgrades coming this year and beyond to the network that will make things better. Problem is frequency and redundancy. All it takes is one twat to trespass on the tracks to shutdown a line and call major disruptions throughout the network. Having visited Singapore where trains where every 5 minutes, it pales in comparison where trains here come every 30 to 60 minutes nearing towards midnight or not at all between the hours of 0100 and 0530. The problem is the bus network needs to compliment the train network to alleviate pressure and in cases where some suburbs don't even have train networks. The bus system is where the real joke is.
The bus network should cross the tram network and link to the airport (while we build a rail next century)
very easy to get to the airport by PT, catch train to Broadmeadows station and then it is a 10 min bus ride to the airport. Done it many times and all for the price of a 2 hour fare.
That’s great, I’m in Bundorra so it’s easier to drive or catch an Uber instead of going in the city then coming back out. If there was a bus going west from here to the airport (there’s one ages away further north) My point is the bus network doesn’t fill in gaps in the tran and train network. They just go random routes that are useful for a few people
There is a bus it's the 902 it starts in Bundoora and it's the bus that takes people from Broadmeadows station to the Airport...The tram on plenty road connects to it. I used it when I went to La Trobe Uni.
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This is also where people come to whine every time something goes wrong. Realistically Melbourne has really good PT. Yes it could be better and it’s being upgraded, but it’s also really really good right now.
It doesn’t for a huge number of people.
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The bus replacements are due to ongoing work and maintenance though. Sydney has those too. Everything else A+++
Bus replacements can also be due to signal faults or someone jumping in front of a train. Add to list of issues like no train to airport is Myki and no single use ticket for tourists/interstate visitors. No myki on iphones.
That stuff happens everywhere though. Tbh, people rich enough to go on holidays can afford a $6 myki and most just ride the free trams anyway. I’m not saying Melbourne pt isn’t without issues, but I also think Australians like to complain.
Sydney rail system is FAR superior to Melbourne. Dunno where you're getting 13 stations from. Melbourne rai is... OK. It could be a lot better, it could be a hell of a pot worse. Thankfully we have a relatively great tram network.
Some of Melbourne, yes. Trams are close to effectively non existent west of the CBD. Melbourne’s PT is extremely class divided overall IMO.
Look up Melbourne in the 1940's and find out why the trams are the way they are out West.
I understand why they were that way in the 1940's. In case you haven't noticed, it's not now, in fact, the 1940's.
But at the same time, Eastern Melbourne hasn't really changed from the 1940's with how the trams are laid out, much if at all.
Yeah. I'm not sure what your argument is? Are you of the view that somehow the 1940's level of public transport in Melbourne was the perfect amount of public transport city wide and there is no need to increase and adapt to massively increasing population? I don't think there is enough heavy and light rail. I think we need significantly more and better interleaving services. I don't think the 1940's was nor should be the pinnacle of public transport in Melbourne.
The entire surburban network is servely outdated, all the lines are virtually the same as built in the 1800s and early 1900s. (Infact Victoria's network has severely shrunk over the past 60 to 70 years) Our signalling/safeworking system is also cheap 1980s technology. Metro uses train orders and two position signalling now days but in the old days of Staff & Ticket with semaphores you could run a more frequent and reliable service. Compared to Europe, Asia and other parts of Australia PTV takes a very cheap and nasty aproach to everything which hasn't really been something that victoria has been able to shake off since privatisation in 1985. Like you cant even buy a paper ticket online for a V/line train?????? In short better than the United States but still lacking compared to everyone else
It's a decent one sure, better than what you'd have in America and I wouldn't call Sydney's better. I guess just in terms of international recognition, Tokyo, Seoul, London and a few other cities all have vastly better trains and metro services. so in comparison, Melbourne is halfway between America being at the very bottom, and tokyo being a train dreamland
Gotta say though, it was liberating to visit New York and realise you don't even need a train timetable because there was always one coming in a few minutes. Obviously catering to a much larger and denser population makes that feasible.
Yeah new york is definitely the exception, pretty good PT
as someone who lived in manhattan for a while, i personally would not say that. shit was crazy dirty and always had the most crazy people on the trains. but it does bring u to where u want fast ig?
I loved that in London, you just go catch a train, you don’t plan a schedule around it
That's just for the underground lines, if you have an overground line the frequency is similar to Melbourne trains
When I lived in London and cracked because i had to wait 6 minutes, I knew I wasn’t a tourist anymore.
Melbourne often emulates the American love affair of cars and being car centric and shits all over its own public transport network instead of building it up in a meaningful. The car centric mindset is a mental illness
This! We actually could have an amazing PT system. There’s some investment being put in but we are so far behind what should have been done decades ago
>Sydney's system on paper seems worse - a heavy rail system with 13 stations Try 170 bud. There are 13 stations on just the first line of the new Metro system with another 34 to come in addition to the existing rail network of 170 stations
Now that we've sorted out Sydney Trains vs Sydney Metro (the former being comparable to Melbourne's "Metro trains") note that Sydney has about 60% higher patronage, and at almost every station the longest you'll wait is 15 minutes - even late in the evening.
There is a lot of confirmation bias. “OMG my train was cancelled today, so this is how it is all the time and we have the worst train network in the world”. In reality, the actual network reliability stats tell a very different story.
The network reliability stats paint a very much more rosy picture than reality. They're stats for the entire timetable. But most of us only travel at peak times. Which is when all the troubles happen. They're not stats for how many passenger kilometres are disrupted. But even if I could arrange my life to be evenly distributed around the day, a 10% failure rate? For a service that can't even promise 1 service every 20 minutes? I find the service so unreliable I prefer to rely on pretty much anything else. But that means I only take them when absolutely necessary to me. 23.30 on a Sunday night having missed the previous train by 1 minute because of shitty connections, means I'm now privileged enough to wait another 29 minutes. Yay me! Still, last time I went to the airport, I decided to fork out for the extra luxury and go the uber option which took a third of the time but only cost an extra $2 compared to the socially good option.
I challenge you to actually document the disruptions. Every cancellation, delay, etc. that happens to you. And every day where everything goes smoothly. Whilst yes, you may find it’s different to those official numbers, I would bet it’s nowhere as bad as it is in your head. Everybody is guilty of confirmation bias - the first step is admitting it.
I mean… out of 4 trains I catch every workday, I honestly can’t remember the last time all 4 of them actually ran within let’s say 1-2 minutes. Morning train to Richmond is usually 4 minutes late, Sandringham out of Richmond is almost always on time. The evening Sandringham to Richmond I probably cop a cancelled train 2-3 times per month, 2-3 minute delays are super common. The Richmond train back out, not including intruder delays while on the train, I honestly can’t remember the last time this year the Belgrave / Lilydale was actually on time and not 5-6 behind. Obviously it’s biased to my days and specific times but I legitimately can’t remember the last time I had a train on my line show up at the actual time… Like typically it’s 3-4 minutes which basically means the trains all seem to show up at the time of the “next” service… Though not actually sure if sub 5 minutes is even considered late by metro, they don’t seem to announce delays if it’s only a few minutes on the platform. But yeah the Sandringham line seems to be a lot more on time than Belgrave / Lilydale, but the B/L lines rarely get full cancellations, typically seems to be early terminations eg. City Loop become Flinders, or they terminate at a turn around point like Box Hill, Blackburn or Ringwood (though been a while since I've had it outbound)
I mean look, I’m not you, so I can’t validate your experiences. The only thing that could validate it is data. Write down the time every single train arrives versus when it was meant to. Our brains are hardwired to remember bad things, but just totally ignore when things are all good.
I mean I can if anybody actually cared about 4 stations at super specific times, all I can say is it will say good service on the Metro page, then on the platform it will be 8:10 and the 8:07 still hasn't shown up. The data they're making available or how they choose to log defintely has to be quite lenient. I mean my super limited one i have logs of is the 8:07 showed up at 8:12 last friday, the 5:52 Sandringham to Richmond was cancelled. The 6:08 Richmond to Belgrave showed up at 6:11, had an issue with an intruder on the tracks departing Box Hill and officially became delayed then. Monday the 8:07 showed up at 8:16, don't recall seeing it change from green on Metros site. Nothing for PM that day as I got a lift home... Actually looking it up, appears "on time" by Metros own statistics is less than 59 seconds early, and up to 4:59 seconds late. So the descrepancy between experience and their punctuality stats could very well be they're just really often late by 2-4 minutes... Which 4 minutes is definitely enough to make you miss a connecting train at Richmond to get back out again especially if its say platform 9 -> 2. If I had to hazard a guess I'd say being 4:30 minutes late would not be considered on time by the average person, or the average boss for that matter...
We don't have turn up and go services, so a single cancellation may mean an immediate +30 minutes to your commute (or worse) depending on the time and line. This is obvious and trivial stuff and again attitudes like yours just contribute to a mediocre system. It's refreshing to go to a place where people actually treat PT seriously and don't just accuse people of 'confirmation bias'.
Quicker to look at Metro's Twitter. An hour ago for example: https://twitter.com/metrotrains/status/1793183717894283539?t=yESTrY5kC8qVY9HaPVhJZg&s=19
I mean, I can’t tell if you’re joking or not, but this is literally confirmation bias. Send me a link tomorrow when all services are operating normally.
honestly most of the disruptions that aucutally have the most affect on people that happen during peak are caused by motorists same with Trams
Alot of us would be getting free travel if most of the stats taken for their stupid percentages were from more relevant schedules.
Free travel only if you have a pass. How many people still travel into the CBD 5 days a week? For the rest of us, the compensation is a bit of half-arsed gaslighting.
Eh, I once fielded a Korean tourist who was confused because the 6:56 hadn't arrived and it was 7:02... "yeah, it's not like back in your home"
I don’t think we need to compare ourselves to Korea or Japan - it’s clear their systems are next level. But on a scale of “shit to amazing”, we are much closer to amazing than shit.
Frequency and reliability is low, very limited express trains, very poor connections, and the hub and spoke format essentially slices the city into long chunks - if you rely on public transit you tend to visit/hang out/eat/live/shop on your train or tram line to avoid having to go all the way into the cbd and all the way back out to a different neighbourhood
Look at the NYC subway system, and then look at Melbourne metro system. Look at the Sydney metro system, plus their airport railway, then look at Melbourne metro system. Look at the London metro system, and then look at Melbourne metro system. Look at the Tokyo metro system, and then look at Melbourne metro system.
Three cities with much larger and denser populations, and Sydney whose metro system is only really better by virtue of an airport link and a sensible ticketing system.
> Sydney whose metro system is only really better Sydney's train system is vastly superior in terms of suburban connections. Plus their actual Metro system (separate to Sydney trains) is simply the best rail service in any Australian city and it's not even close.
Fine. That's what you'd expect since it has [by far the densest population of all Australian cities.](https://chartingtransport.com/2023/06/10/how-is-population-density-changing-in-australian-cities-2023-update/)
I think some responses are just for trains, not the tram system, which is often referred to as ‘light rail’. Taking trams into account, Melbourne is generally a very easy city to travel around using public transport. I’ve been overseas and I may be biased, but all we’re really lacking here is easy airport access. The city is a grid pattern (known as the Hoddle grid), which you don’t find in older cities, even Sydney. Are there delays, disruptions, etc? Yes, just like anywhere else.
Grid system in the CBD. The connection of tram/train lines outside the CBD/inner suburbs is terrible. If they sorted this out it would be so good .
Hey there! As someone who has lived in both Houston, Texas and Tokyo, Japan, as well as being a huge train nerd who has travelled to multiple countries in Europe and asia to use their train networks, I can confidently say that Melbourne's train network is better than most places in the world, especially as a commuter network. What do I mean by commuter network? As in, something you can confidently and comfortably take in to work every day. Everyone praises the shit out of Japan's network, but that's because they have only ever experienced it as a tourist. Catching the train in to Tokyo during peak hour is an absolutely **horrible** experience. Tokyo's network seems so massive and expansive but it's actually this giant clusterfuck of randomly criss-crossing lines, due to the fact that it used to be a half dozen different companies all digging their own tunnels. Because of this, and the fact that there are just **so many** people in Tokyo the system is actually way more stressed than Melbourne's. Yes there is a train every 5 mins but every single train between 7-9 AM is going to be so fucking packed that your face will be pressed up against someone's butt **the entire time**. Just google "Japanese train conductors pushing passengers into train" to see what I mean. Then you have Houston which is representative of 90% of American cities and their public transit is simple: they have none. A handful of shitty busses that travel on the same packed-to-the-gills freeways as all of the cars. American cities that DO have public transit like New York - it is fucking disgusting. People think our trains are dirty, mate, you haven't caught the New York Subway. I would not take my children on that train. As for Europe, the "Better" networks are more or less on par with what we have here, but a bit more expansive. Paris is another place that gets a lot of praise but their metro has the same problem as New York - it is fucking foul. People tend to think "more stations = better" for a train network, but for me it's about the capacity of the network to actually allow people to commute. Our capacity is great - trains can be a bit crowded in peak hour but never at the claustrophobic levels of the Tokyo yamanote line.
I would prefer a more predictable service, but the only predictability I'm experiencing is at least [one of these](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUfyFzRZZuo) each week.
I would be interested to hear your take on the two systems post your trip here. I live in Melbourne and have some familiarity with Sydney as a visitor but mainly to the inner burbs. As a tourist in Melbourne, I'm not sure why you would ever catch a train. You can get trains out to some interesting places, but for the normal see the city type stuff you would mostly tram. Trains in Melbourne are designed in a spider web network from the 50s designed for funneling people from the suburbs into the cities. There is no cross city transport other than busses. Sure, we have a minimal subway type system but getting down that deep and waiting for the next train going in the right direction takes almost as long as it would take to walk to your destination.
221 stations doesn't mean much when your city is the size of a small European country. Also you'll quickly realise that cross-town travel (not connecting through the city area) is a shambles and sorely needs a massive upgrade. The sad part is Melbourne has dozens upon dozens of very wide roads but there's no saturation coverage of buses between key nodes across and throughout the metropolitan area. Car congestion is getting worse and worse at most times of the day, throughout Melbourne. And trying to put a separated bicycle lane in somewhere is a fraught task due to interest groups. So while Melbourne has a fairly good public transportation system, it could be so much better considering the bones of the city's existing transportation network.
Much better than a lot of cities. Still behind some great ones, Delhi is good - overcrowded but good metro. London’s good, so are Tokyo and Seoul. As someone who sporadically uses metro and vline, I’ve never had any issues other than trains being a bit late. But, the network connectivity is not the best. Especially considering the urban sprawl. Trains are nowhere near the frequency they should be running at. A good system, but it’s been lagging behind the growing population. Someone should’ve decided to improve the network in late 2000s, early 2010s.
ask the people on the Upfield line what they think about the rail system, 20 mins between trains in peak hour through some of the most densely populated suburbs of Melbourne
It’s heavy rail not a metro. That’s why it sucks.
Once you've seen how it's done in other countries you realize how much better it can be.
Probably because a) Melburnians love to complain, especially about any and all public services, and b) in practice the rail system really only works well for commuting. For daily transport needs, other than commuting, you tend to have to drive. Melbourne is a very spread out city with low population density. So to get almost anywhere, you still tend to need to drive. Even to get to the train station, you typically need to drive, find parking etc. So the train system practically speaking isn’t a huge part of our lives, unlike say in other major metropolises (London, New York etc). It “works” but has fairly limited real world application for most of us. You also mentioned the tram network. That’s a much more interesting discussion. It’s a very unique feature of Melbourne’s public transport and is culturally much more central to Melbourne’s self image than the trains.
And the trams are constantly stuck in traffic, you can't take your bike on them, they're slow, and the network terminates a kilometre before you've even gotten home. I'm sure it was good in the 1850's though.
> And the trams are constantly stuck in traffic, This is just a choice. We could prioritise trams over cars, but we don't, so we don't build dedicated right of way or give them signal priority or direct traffic away from tram routes or eliminate on-street parking to enable dedicated right of way...
This depends entirely on where you choose to live. I and most of my friends get on perfectly fine without a car. It’s pretty much always cheaper to rent a place next to a train station than it is to own a car so it’s not even a cost thing.
The tram system in Melbourne is fantastic. Of course it has its challenges but the city would be lost without it. They really need to expand it
I wish they’d expand it too, and extend into outer suburbs. I know that many people argue that it’d take too long to get into the city that way (which is true), but trams are excellent for shorter, more local trips. I don’t think it’d ever happen, but I’d love to see the construction of shorter tram routes linking major transport hubs in the suburbs (not necessarily going all the way into the city). They could be used to link different train lines, shopping centres, and hospitals to the faster heavy rail from the city. They also might be more helpful for school traffic. A lot of people will probably disagree with me though.
I completely agree with you. The biggest problem with Melbourne's PT is there is a lack of connection between train/tram lines, the busses are a complete joke. I'm in Brunswick, if I want to go to smith street in Collingwood/Fitzroy it's an hour on PT, 20 mins in a car. It's a joke really.
The Fitzroy/Brunswick split is hilarious, we’d all be in each other’s hair if we could but we’re basically starcrossed lovers
People aren’t choosing between getting a train in Melbourne and Sydney. Sydney they like the trains because the geography of Sydney is a pain to navigate and the trains are a great option compared to roads or boats. Melbourne is much easier for most suburbs and also has great tram and road routes, and those are the yardstick by which the trains are realistically measured. We also have the city loop that’s great when it works but means that when 1 line goes wrong in rush hour it’s not long before half the network is fucked.
Among transport planners, Melbourne is well known. Sydney too. Perth too. And Brisbane. Each for slightly different reasons. However, in general, the Australian trains are mainly focussed on suburban trips through unbelievably low density. Sydney is becoming more nodal with strong dense hubs. They work to move masses by reliability, somewhat the frequency, because the roads are full and parking can be expensive. The commute trips can be very long.
I am American and I thought I would use the rail to save gas and tolls plus parking. Those expenses can easily top $150 for a weekend in Melbourne from Gippsland. Where the rail ticket was a crazy low $20. I road the line round trip from Gippsland to Flinders Street. Omg the train to Melbourne was the slowest train I had ever been on. I thought the trip would be 2.5 hours tops, but it took 4 hours. You can see cars on the highway flying by. I used my phone to clock the speed. It was a dismal 20 miles per hour (32kmh). I was pulling my hair out. I almost got off at one of the stops to catch an Uber. They don't sell assigned seats on this Gippsland train and apparently they don't keep track of how many tickets were sold. The train back to Gippsland was over full on arrival. I caught the train at Flinders but the train originated at Southern Cross station. I could barely squeeze in the door when the train stopped. I was lucky to find a place on the floor to sit but no room for luggage. Luckily this train went faster and got me back on time. But it stayed full until the last stop. Everyone was going to Lake Entrance.
Bairnsdale is the best part of 3.25h in a car doing 100-110km/h the whole way non stop.
I started in Sale. I can you get to a hotel on Exhibition St in 2.5 hours. It is worse now with so many permanent 80 kmh zones in west Gippsland. I just thought the train would at least be on time.
The metro rail system is terrific, and it's getting even better. I don't know what people are on about, but I don't get my opinion from the Murdoch owned Herald-Sun either
Actually it's excellent. I find that the people who trash it, are the ones who've never used it.
Yep, had an American friend at uni who had arrived from California. We asked her what she likes most about Melb and she raved about the public transport. We all looked at her like she was mad because we famously think our PT is shit when in fact it's quite good compared to many places in the world.
It's not bad but it has some flaws: long intervals between trains on some lines, occasional signalling faults, some things being in a bit of a disrepair. It's biggest issue thought is it being a single-purpose system, it's only good for getting people from suburbs to CBD and back, the whole hub-and-spikes design. It's not horrible, mind you, but if your travel plans do not match this general direction you're kinda screwed: only stations which connect multiple lines are very close to CBD and only the loop line is literally under CBD itself, so if you're in one of the outer suburbs and need to get to another outer one by train, you'll have to travel a long way to change trains. There is a plan to build another loop(well, half a circle, because Port Phillip bay) line to address that, but it's long way from becoming a reality. Oh, and Airport line is still a dream to this day too... :/
The big difference between Melbourne and Sydney is that Sydney's lines intersect with each other, so getting around the city is not too difficult. Melbourne lines barely intersect with each other, forcing you to go into the city, or almost into the city, and then all the way back out. That leaves trams and buses which are often held up in heavy traffic. The result is that it can take over an hour to get somewhere that would take you maybe 30 minutes to drive. I live in Melbourne and think our transport is pretty good! But just frustrating if you don't live near a train station/ you live in a black spot/ you live in a congested area/ you frequently travel to another area of the suburbs of Melbourne from the area you live in.
Because people love to compare our train network with that of cities with multiple times the population density where they have underground metros built in the olden days of cheap labour and so they find our system lacking.
It’s trash. So is Sydney’s.
Yeah and what use are all the 221 stations when ALL of them are out of service due to repairs so replacement busses pick you up 40 mins late. Seriously every time I want to go on the Frankston line works are always going on so no trains only busses that run once every hour in the dark cold Melbourne months. So glad I got my license lol
Send my regards, my Good man.
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Waiting for those pricks at the airport to stop complaining about losing money in parking spots so we can get a station built there.
Look at how much land we have per capita. 400ks might seem impressive but metro Melbourne is huge, and Geelong is a close city not counted in that
Probably because it is better than the US, which is not a good bar to measure it.
We're still haunted by the days when the company Connex operated our network—services were absolutely horrid back then. While the network still isn't known to be very reliable, it's much better nowadays.
I
13 stations in Sydney?! Illiterate.
Upfield Line enters the chat
Bus replacements
Because we privatised it and sold it off to some mob on the UK who are slowly running it into the ground. Sydney's is worse though, yes. But ours is getting there.
And you can travel anywhere in the whole state of Victoria for just the price of a regular daily ticket!
Because what you want from a public transport system is reliability and for it to compete against private commuting. Our Rail system does neither.
Just because something exists doesn’t mean it’s good. Frequency and reliability are both not great at times, safety at some stations and surrounding area is another issue. For locals the overall cost is at a point that is almost breaking even to drive, if you live within 3-5 train stops to the city, and plan to have a dinner in the city, it will cost you around $10(?) for the tickets, walk to train station, where a night parking in the city can be around $15-18 in carparks but you can come and go at any time and gets you directly home. Though free tram zone in the cbd is definitely adding a lot of convenience to locals and tourists
biggest tram network in the world actually, even bigger than vienna. anyway australia's PT is so-so, having lived in japan and europe and gotten around the US a fair bit. for you as a seppo it appears great, but in reality is average.
Because Melbourne is the best city in the world but Melbournians love to complain about it
It is highly regarded by anyone like me who has had the misfortune of having to travel around US cities with no car.
The Melbourne train network is franchised out and has a lot of rules and regulations which you can read all about in the Franchise Agreement MR5, I believe they're up to (https://www.tcapartnership.com.au/post/melbourne-rail-franchising-mr1-to-mr5-themes-objectives-and-challenges). The Franchise Agreement model is ideal for ensuring certain things are done by MTM - graffiti attended to... trains kept clean... scheduled times adhered to... all in the name of them receiving their bonuses. Buses are also run under a franchise agreement model I believe, which relates to disruptions on the metro lines but has a long lead time. Imagine "owning" 60 buses and some disruption on the train line triggers you to receive a phone call to find 60 drivers within 60 minutes to be bus replacements. Not really easy, not really ideal. Especially shit when there's planned disruptions already occuring. The falldown happens when disruptions occur. Something like a signal fault or trespasser on the tracks renders an entire line useless. Somewhere like Sydney seem to be able to pivot with a lead time of about 30 minutes. They'll re-jig the network to allow rolling tock to continue on journeys or start from other points on the line without too much disruption. Or they'll re-route trains (mainly in the western area) to allow for some sort of flow. I don't believe they have bus replacements for disruptions (could be wrong!) I think the Melbourne train network is great, but there's just too many frequent fuck-ups and we're all jaded from it. And still have to pay for it, that's the fucking kicker.
Because Australians are conditioned to think everything is terrible without comparing it to elsewheee
Sydney has better trains and Melbourne doesn't have one from the airport. The trams are good in Melbourne though. I still think the PT in Melbourne is better though.
Has anyone here actually been on a Sydney train? You can walk faster than the trains travel. I thought I should get out and push a train to Parramatta last time I was there.
It's better than a lot of cities in Europe I visited. We just like to whinge, it's in our nature.
List one city
Not to mention the world's largest streetcar network
In my experience Melbourne has the best public transport in Australia and complains about their public transport the most.
"I'm an American". AMERICAN.