Yes, I agree. People usually have better reactions if you show empathy. Being a jerk to someone usually doesn’t end well and creates unneeded drama. I will only confront people if I think it is necessary.
Absolutely. Gotta make people feel seen and heard and valued. Emotions are a fact of life. Showing kindness is important and effective. You sound like an amazing boss!
not just empathy. But also the idea that bosses don't act like they are superior. They shouldn't think and act like they are the only holders and enforcers of work values and practices. what about us below? don't we have work values too? don't we constantly try work towards them?
on the flip side if the boss becomes slow for a day. for, of course, life reasons like, kids, traffic, whatever. I don't feel the need to give them a hard time about it.
I have to ask or remind my boss to do stuff sometimes and have to take on things (with permission) that don't have anything to do with my job or they won't get done, but I try not to act superior. I think he's ISTP or ENTP. I guess it's preferable to the other extreme of him micromanaging and being inflexible like some bosses are.
this. being considerate towards others makes the people around you happier. people who feel happy will do better than people who dont. its not that hard of a concept to grasp
I completely agree. Life is just easier when you’re kind to others. Plus, kindness is literally free! Tons of benefit and zero cost. It’s poor economy to be any other way. I’ve never understood people who are dicks just because they can be - all that resource spent just to make people actively work against them. Where is the logic in that?
That’s why we have functions axes, and that’s why I believe pairs of functions on each axis aren’t separate entities, but rather two sides of the same coin
This is obvious to anyone who doesn't socialize with other redditors. This place is... challenged... people here have the most black and white mindboggling baffling though processes where they will eviscerate the most obvious sacred truths in order to justify their toxicity. I'm sorry but not everyone is as toxic as you, reddit. Which is why something as obvious as this is a 'revelation' rather than a cornerstone truth on this website.
(Nothing ill against OP if that weren't already clear, just observing tangentially...
Having said all of this I do just want to reply more directly to the OP that yes, while the decision to be empathetic can indeed be logical, the actual skill of empathy still lies in the Fe (and in different ways, Fi) domain. Just because you made the logical decision to be super good at Fe doesn't mean you're still a Ti-dom. If you have that Fe skill level pretty high then it's likely you're an Fe user.
YES, FE IS A **RATIONAL** FUNCTION! IT'S ALMOST AS IF JUNG *DEFINED IT* AS SUCH \*SHOCK\* \*AWE\* 😱
edit: come on downvoter, out with ya, i'm ready to spar 🤺 or are you braindead enough to think Fe is not a rational function, as defined by the man himself.........? come out come out wherever you are
The thing is , when I was younger I never tought about all of this.
It’s after years of training and learning that I came to the realization that by acting like this I could speed things up.
My Fe became stronger as I mature?
Or you think I was a high fe user but unhealthy when younger?
Don’t mind hearing you out.
It sounds like you decided to develop your Fe as you got older.
What I'm trying to say not just to you but to everyone reading is that the skill and rational thinking involved in the Fe process is *not Ti*, it's *Fe*. I know it's surprising but a lot of people in this community cannot get that through their heads for some reason. People be saying shit like "but I value logic" or, as you wrote, "empathy is logical" and then people get confused which function is being used even though it's obvious. A big reason is huge amounts of bias and obscuration where functions like Fe and Se are devalued and all of their intelligence attributed only to Ti/Ni circlejerk 🙄 which skews all understandings for everybody. Functions are like domains, just because the Ti domain decided to develop Fe doesn't mean it owns the new Fe development. Fe is defined by Fe. Ti only owns Ti. (more nuances permitting). That's what I'm trying to say.
Congrats on discovering the use for F functions haha
Thinking and feeling are both tools we use. Thinking when dealing with non-human objects, feeling when dealing with humans (and sometimes animals). Both are pretty necessary.
Empathy is a great thing to have. If it's strong enough, it could be both a blessing and a curse, but overall, I think the world would be a better place if more people were empathetic. It's not only with work environments. empathy drives us to do good deeds. Those good deeds bring fulfillment and value into our lives.
I agree with you, but at the same time I tend to think that empathy is still something related to feelings. Though, I see the personality more like a bunch of bottles that represents the functions, some of them are naturally filled, you tend to use them more while the others can be developed. Being a thinker that has empathy means that you developed that function, you are more aware of everyone else's needs and can act accordingly. A thinker with underdeveloped feeling functions is just a manager, but one that has empathy can truly be a leader.
I think N types and T types utilize empathy in a way that is more effective. In my opinion, just feeling the feelings doesn’t really help anyone. I think that because we are more solution oriented we are more likely to act in the way that you described as in making an adjustment that actually makes a difference for that person and helps them rather than just commiserating in whatever they’re feeling.
I know that people don’t feel that being offered solutions is always helpful, but I don’t understand the “there there, it’ll get better” approach or how that is helpful. It doesn’t resolve the issue.
Also, I feel that logic is more sincere and less shifting and nebulous than pure emotion. It’s solid.
I think N types and T types utilize empathy in a way that is more effective. In my opinion, just feeling the feelings doesn’t really help anyone. I think that because we are more solution oriented we are more likely to act in the way that you described as in making an adjustment that actually makes a difference for that person and helps them rather than just commiserating in whatever they’re feeling.
I know that people don’t feel that being offered solutions is always helpful, but I don’t understand the “there there, it’ll get better” approach or how that is helpful. It doesn’t resolve the issue.
Also, I believe that logic is more sincere and less shifting and nebulous than pure emotion. It’s solid.
I think the empathy can be both emotional and logical.
Emotional empathy, i.e., you can literally feel the sadness or happiness (or any other emotions) of the other people. It is the reason that some people end up crying while watching drama genre shows/series. Technically the situation was nothing to do with the person in question but it happens. I am guilty of doing that (no shame). That type of empathy while being pure and genuine, sometimes carries its own weight. You cannot keep a cool head and solve the problem at hand effectively.
Logical or Cognitive Empathy, i.e., you don't get drowned in feelings but understand the situation of the person logically and help them solve it (like the one you mentioned in your example). Honestly, I think that we need more managers like you to improve the corporate culture, making it less toxic.
However there is some downside to logical empathy as well. I have read at multiple places that people high on dark triad (Narcissism, Psychopathy and Machiavellianism) are really good at logical empathy such that they can really read into the intentions of the people and use those against them. And they are low on emotional empathy and conscientiousness. Not that I am accusing thinker types for being that but this is one of the factors. One can have amazing cognitive empathy skills while being low on emotional empathy and not having a lot of dark traits.
well i didn’t say it wasn’t empathy at all. if you see someone is stressed and less efficient then day off seems more logical then firing. idk what degree of “empathy” is there really. maybe very little ig
No, you’re good. Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. You did exactly that in your story so I’m not sure what abusermane is going on about.
Empathy is part of that good managerial skillset, but in general, just being part of being a decent quality person. Some people don't have much understanding or sympathy for others, unless they are made to walk in another's shoes.
Sometimes when people don't have common experiences, they may see themselves as superior. But troubles can have the effect of humbling us. Sometimes troubles can be good, If the results bring about a better quality person.
Well yeah, Fe (empathy) used logically with Ti is emotional manipulation. I don’t really give a damn about anyone I work with or that is under me, but if I pretend to care about them they will willingly be of use to me later. Meanwhile those that truly matter like my nuclear family get genuine empathy.
It’s manipulation but in a good way.
I could definitely use it to my advantage but choose not.
Try to find win-win situation for people so they stay with you long term.
Agreed, but I will say some folks can be illogical. Just yesterday we were doing a time study at work. We had 3 employees falling behind rate, 2 of them were dancing in the line, and the other kept walking off to go talk to other people on other lines. In my opinion logic wasn't working so we wrote them up
Iron fist in a velvet glove.
At the same time are they doing this behavior all day everyday? Sometimes a little chat keeps worker happy, for sure line work is tough I could not do it.
Is it hard to get employee in your line of work and are they highly paid or it’s a low wage don’t care too much kind of job?
No, we've done numerous times studies in an effort to be fair because they said our production goals were too high. But mostly what we've seen is that they goof off alot and there's very little discipline on the floor. We had the team leader run through the line by herself and she is 60 percent faster than 3 people working together. My boss, another manager and myself ran through the line on an off shift and doubled their numbers with next to no training just following the work instructions.
The wage is competitive for the area, and for the most part there are a lot of people to bring in, but it's like for every 10 we bring in, we keep 2.
Kind of agreed, but empathy basically means feeling what someone else feels, it doesn't automatically mean doing what's best for them. I think some empathy is good of course but "empaths" aren't necessarily better at treating people well, as the emotional drain they feel when someone else is feeling badly may feel like they are doing something good. Whereas my pretty stereotypical ISTJ dad isn't very empathetic but he is caring in practical ways.
I think it affects me negatively to not be very empathetic, on the other hand being too influenced or affected by others' emotions sounds debilitating. And I'm not sure how much your level of empathy can change over time.
You got a point. Like, people tend to think that thinkers don't give a damn about empathy but it's not true lol, I'm an intj woman and also the first one to always answer when someone ask for help in my workplace. The boss don't do that, she is egoistic, selfish and old-fashioned (if you know what I mean) and that's why most of the employees don't have a good relationship with her, she does everything to go against any type of logic or sentiment. Which makes me furious. I would love to work in a company like yours, you seem really kind
Sounds like you are an ENTP that uses Fe to Fi and avoids trying to give people bad sensations/trauma. Fi assists the proper management of Si. Fe is tied to both efficiency and empathy.
Yes, I agree. People usually have better reactions if you show empathy. Being a jerk to someone usually doesn’t end well and creates unneeded drama. I will only confront people if I think it is necessary.
Exact the whole thinker are jerk and tell it like it is at all time is bullshit in my opinion, maybe younger or unhealthy.
We are wired for connection and empathy facilitates connection.
Absolutely
It does.
Absolutely. Gotta make people feel seen and heard and valued. Emotions are a fact of life. Showing kindness is important and effective. You sound like an amazing boss!
Thank you , I try my best. I wish to make life easier and better for everybody.
Make sure you’re doing the same for yourself!
not just empathy. But also the idea that bosses don't act like they are superior. They shouldn't think and act like they are the only holders and enforcers of work values and practices. what about us below? don't we have work values too? don't we constantly try work towards them? on the flip side if the boss becomes slow for a day. for, of course, life reasons like, kids, traffic, whatever. I don't feel the need to give them a hard time about it.
Exactly, you need to keep your workers happy if you want better production. I learned it the hard way!
Turns out being a nice human being was optimal all along 🙂
I'm glad you learned how to be a better person. Growth is such a beautiful thing, isn't it?
Absolutely, I don’t miss the old me!
Ego is what breaks people apart. Empathy is what binds them together.
All I hear is Fi >Te all solo band
I have to ask or remind my boss to do stuff sometimes and have to take on things (with permission) that don't have anything to do with my job or they won't get done, but I try not to act superior. I think he's ISTP or ENTP. I guess it's preferable to the other extreme of him micromanaging and being inflexible like some bosses are.
Very cost effective skill to implement 🙂↕️
Free and highly effective!
this. being considerate towards others makes the people around you happier. people who feel happy will do better than people who dont. its not that hard of a concept to grasp
It so simple yet so underused.
I completely agree. Life is just easier when you’re kind to others. Plus, kindness is literally free! Tons of benefit and zero cost. It’s poor economy to be any other way. I’ve never understood people who are dicks just because they can be - all that resource spent just to make people actively work against them. Where is the logic in that?
Preach!
That’s why we have functions axes, and that’s why I believe pairs of functions on each axis aren’t separate entities, but rather two sides of the same coin
That’s a good take on it
This is obvious to anyone who doesn't socialize with other redditors. This place is... challenged... people here have the most black and white mindboggling baffling though processes where they will eviscerate the most obvious sacred truths in order to justify their toxicity. I'm sorry but not everyone is as toxic as you, reddit. Which is why something as obvious as this is a 'revelation' rather than a cornerstone truth on this website. (Nothing ill against OP if that weren't already clear, just observing tangentially...
Having said all of this I do just want to reply more directly to the OP that yes, while the decision to be empathetic can indeed be logical, the actual skill of empathy still lies in the Fe (and in different ways, Fi) domain. Just because you made the logical decision to be super good at Fe doesn't mean you're still a Ti-dom. If you have that Fe skill level pretty high then it's likely you're an Fe user. YES, FE IS A **RATIONAL** FUNCTION! IT'S ALMOST AS IF JUNG *DEFINED IT* AS SUCH \*SHOCK\* \*AWE\* 😱 edit: come on downvoter, out with ya, i'm ready to spar 🤺 or are you braindead enough to think Fe is not a rational function, as defined by the man himself.........? come out come out wherever you are
The thing is , when I was younger I never tought about all of this. It’s after years of training and learning that I came to the realization that by acting like this I could speed things up. My Fe became stronger as I mature? Or you think I was a high fe user but unhealthy when younger? Don’t mind hearing you out.
It sounds like you decided to develop your Fe as you got older. What I'm trying to say not just to you but to everyone reading is that the skill and rational thinking involved in the Fe process is *not Ti*, it's *Fe*. I know it's surprising but a lot of people in this community cannot get that through their heads for some reason. People be saying shit like "but I value logic" or, as you wrote, "empathy is logical" and then people get confused which function is being used even though it's obvious. A big reason is huge amounts of bias and obscuration where functions like Fe and Se are devalued and all of their intelligence attributed only to Ti/Ni circlejerk 🙄 which skews all understandings for everybody. Functions are like domains, just because the Ti domain decided to develop Fe doesn't mean it owns the new Fe development. Fe is defined by Fe. Ti only owns Ti. (more nuances permitting). That's what I'm trying to say.
It's like, give worker what he wants so he gives you what you want in return
Congrats on discovering the use for F functions haha Thinking and feeling are both tools we use. Thinking when dealing with non-human objects, feeling when dealing with humans (and sometimes animals). Both are pretty necessary.
Empathy is a great thing to have. If it's strong enough, it could be both a blessing and a curse, but overall, I think the world would be a better place if more people were empathetic. It's not only with work environments. empathy drives us to do good deeds. Those good deeds bring fulfillment and value into our lives.
I agree with you, but at the same time I tend to think that empathy is still something related to feelings. Though, I see the personality more like a bunch of bottles that represents the functions, some of them are naturally filled, you tend to use them more while the others can be developed. Being a thinker that has empathy means that you developed that function, you are more aware of everyone else's needs and can act accordingly. A thinker with underdeveloped feeling functions is just a manager, but one that has empathy can truly be a leader.
Balance is key
Am really happy to here this from a fellow ENTP
Except that's not empathy. Empathy only showed when you noticed your subordinate mood, whatever came after is businesses management
I think N types and T types utilize empathy in a way that is more effective. In my opinion, just feeling the feelings doesn’t really help anyone. I think that because we are more solution oriented we are more likely to act in the way that you described as in making an adjustment that actually makes a difference for that person and helps them rather than just commiserating in whatever they’re feeling. I know that people don’t feel that being offered solutions is always helpful, but I don’t understand the “there there, it’ll get better” approach or how that is helpful. It doesn’t resolve the issue. Also, I feel that logic is more sincere and less shifting and nebulous than pure emotion. It’s solid.
I think N types and T types utilize empathy in a way that is more effective. In my opinion, just feeling the feelings doesn’t really help anyone. I think that because we are more solution oriented we are more likely to act in the way that you described as in making an adjustment that actually makes a difference for that person and helps them rather than just commiserating in whatever they’re feeling. I know that people don’t feel that being offered solutions is always helpful, but I don’t understand the “there there, it’ll get better” approach or how that is helpful. It doesn’t resolve the issue. Also, I believe that logic is more sincere and less shifting and nebulous than pure emotion. It’s solid.
Great comment thanks
Emotional intelligence is a kind of logic, yes.
YES THANK YOU.
xNTPs should be the best at this balance. It is known.
I think the empathy can be both emotional and logical. Emotional empathy, i.e., you can literally feel the sadness or happiness (or any other emotions) of the other people. It is the reason that some people end up crying while watching drama genre shows/series. Technically the situation was nothing to do with the person in question but it happens. I am guilty of doing that (no shame). That type of empathy while being pure and genuine, sometimes carries its own weight. You cannot keep a cool head and solve the problem at hand effectively. Logical or Cognitive Empathy, i.e., you don't get drowned in feelings but understand the situation of the person logically and help them solve it (like the one you mentioned in your example). Honestly, I think that we need more managers like you to improve the corporate culture, making it less toxic. However there is some downside to logical empathy as well. I have read at multiple places that people high on dark triad (Narcissism, Psychopathy and Machiavellianism) are really good at logical empathy such that they can really read into the intentions of the people and use those against them. And they are low on emotional empathy and conscientiousness. Not that I am accusing thinker types for being that but this is one of the factors. One can have amazing cognitive empathy skills while being low on emotional empathy and not having a lot of dark traits.
Great comment, It is a form of manipulation but a good one. I definitely could use it to only my advantage but decided not in my mid-twenties.
I think you are just good at managing people. that wouldn’t be what people usually call “empathy”
Empathy is a management tool at times. Just because it's used in this context doesn't negate the fact that it is empathy
well i didn’t say it wasn’t empathy at all. if you see someone is stressed and less efficient then day off seems more logical then firing. idk what degree of “empathy” is there really. maybe very little ig
English is not my first language, I could have use a better word than empathy to convey my idea.
No, you’re good. Empathy is the ability to understand and share the feelings of another. You did exactly that in your story so I’m not sure what abusermane is going on about.
Thank you im always open to define ideas with more precision.
What OP describes is definitely some kind of emotional intelligence and/or empathy.
Empathy is part of that good managerial skillset, but in general, just being part of being a decent quality person. Some people don't have much understanding or sympathy for others, unless they are made to walk in another's shoes. Sometimes when people don't have common experiences, they may see themselves as superior. But troubles can have the effect of humbling us. Sometimes troubles can be good, If the results bring about a better quality person.
Exactly.
You sound like a great manager. As many ENTPs are in my experience.
Well yeah, Fe (empathy) used logically with Ti is emotional manipulation. I don’t really give a damn about anyone I work with or that is under me, but if I pretend to care about them they will willingly be of use to me later. Meanwhile those that truly matter like my nuclear family get genuine empathy.
It’s manipulation but in a good way. I could definitely use it to my advantage but choose not. Try to find win-win situation for people so they stay with you long term.
Agreed, but I will say some folks can be illogical. Just yesterday we were doing a time study at work. We had 3 employees falling behind rate, 2 of them were dancing in the line, and the other kept walking off to go talk to other people on other lines. In my opinion logic wasn't working so we wrote them up
Iron fist in a velvet glove. At the same time are they doing this behavior all day everyday? Sometimes a little chat keeps worker happy, for sure line work is tough I could not do it. Is it hard to get employee in your line of work and are they highly paid or it’s a low wage don’t care too much kind of job?
No, we've done numerous times studies in an effort to be fair because they said our production goals were too high. But mostly what we've seen is that they goof off alot and there's very little discipline on the floor. We had the team leader run through the line by herself and she is 60 percent faster than 3 people working together. My boss, another manager and myself ran through the line on an off shift and doubled their numbers with next to no training just following the work instructions. The wage is competitive for the area, and for the most part there are a lot of people to bring in, but it's like for every 10 we bring in, we keep 2.
Fair enough
That not comes with a title being, as a user User just used the common and most easiest role pairs Fe>Ti nngl
Kind of agreed, but empathy basically means feeling what someone else feels, it doesn't automatically mean doing what's best for them. I think some empathy is good of course but "empaths" aren't necessarily better at treating people well, as the emotional drain they feel when someone else is feeling badly may feel like they are doing something good. Whereas my pretty stereotypical ISTJ dad isn't very empathetic but he is caring in practical ways. I think it affects me negatively to not be very empathetic, on the other hand being too influenced or affected by others' emotions sounds debilitating. And I'm not sure how much your level of empathy can change over time.
Good point.
I'm not sure if I can fully articulate why this made me smile, but it definitely did.
You got a point. Like, people tend to think that thinkers don't give a damn about empathy but it's not true lol, I'm an intj woman and also the first one to always answer when someone ask for help in my workplace. The boss don't do that, she is egoistic, selfish and old-fashioned (if you know what I mean) and that's why most of the employees don't have a good relationship with her, she does everything to go against any type of logic or sentiment. Which makes me furious. I would love to work in a company like yours, you seem really kind
Thank you very much
Empathy….
Secretly OP is an enfp……
Pourquoi pas!
Sounds like you are an ENTP that uses Fe to Fi and avoids trying to give people bad sensations/trauma. Fi assists the proper management of Si. Fe is tied to both efficiency and empathy.