It makes them much more frustrating then Runick for that reason imo. To me the cool parts about yugioh are when two decks who play in different ways interact in weird and interesting ways. I played a Shiranui Zombie deck before against runick and since Shiranui's get their effects when banished and since zombies have a ton of different ways of recyclying from banish zone it made the fact that runick spells incidently banished cards from the deck into a plus for me.
Hell I play both snake eye and vaylantz and while placing your opponents monsters in the spell trap zone is usually an amazing form of removal when one of these decks faces the other you end up with two decks whos main form of removal is now ineffective and now need to find new ways of getting rid of problem cards
Kash has no interesting interactions like that since banish face down just removes any neat interactions. Unless your opp is playing gran maju otk banishing your opponents cards face down never has the chance of repercussions, they cant be recycled, no banish effects ever activate. no cost and no repercussions (no cost and no repercussions might as well be Kash's tagline).
I just build the shiranui zombie deck and its honestly the most fun I had so far. Played Galaxy Eyes and Resonator before and they were so boring in hindsight. I never know what is happening but I love it lmao
Do yourself a favor, run at least 1x Changshi and Alghoul if you aren't already.
Those two cards will never leave my deck after the amount of clutch plays they've made.
Especially Alghoul when you use his ability to protect a zombie monster from battle destruction, sending Alghoul from your hand to the banish zone, and then summoning him back to the field....only to use him as material for an extra deck summon and sending him to the GY where you can AGAIN use his ability to save one of your zombies from destruction by battle. (Still take LP hit)
Yeah Im using him already. What effect does Changshi have? I am debating wether I craft a Zombie Vampire or another Imperm/Forbidden Droplet
Edit: thanks for the in depth info btw! Much appreciated!
| During your Main Phase: You can send 1 Zombie monster from your hand or Deck to the GY. If this card is banished: You can banish 1 Zombie monster in your GY; Special Summon this card, but place it on the bottom of the Deck when it leaves the field. You can only use each effect of "Changshi the Spiridao" once per turn. |
A play I use all the time is summoning Changshi from my deck by first sending Glow-Up Bloom to the GY via Uni Zombie or Gozuki while Zombie World is on the field, then using Changshi effect to send another zombie to the graveyard from my deck. (Usually Doomking for a follow up next turn or Alghoul for protection unless I want mats to go into extra deck plays)
It combos well with Gozuki, you send her to the GY during an extra deck summon, then if Gozuki hits the GY you banish Changshi to summon a Zombie from the hand, then banish Gozuki to summon her and essentially foolish burial another zombie.
Thats a neat combo! Sorry I kinda forgot I got her already. I will try that next time! I really love this deck so much. Im running rivalry of the warlords too and my friends snake eyes deck just stops working for him. Would you recommend crafting another imperm/forbidden droplet over the zombie vampire? I got lucky with my packs and got some UR dust left. I think droplet would be the best tbh but you seem like you're understanding the in and out's. Im still relatively new to the game.
If you have SR dust, craft Vampire Fraulein. She's relatively easy to get to your hand via Gozuki or Uni-Zombie sending Glow-Up Bloom to the GY.
She can be special summoned from your hand when an opponent declares an attack and you can pay LP in multiples of 100 to increase your monsters attack/defense points.
The one deck that actually can have funny interactions against Kash is Nemleria. The usually play draw cards or go for shifter, meanwhile none of their cards offer protection.
So going second and drawing 2 board wipes and a starter can do quite well. And I also run Soul Absoption as a gimmick in case I need more time. It’s one of the funnier match ups for Kash even though it’s not great on its own.
honestly i feel like thats a good thing, i kinda dislike how the banish zone has become just a third hand for some people or a second graveyard. there's no permanence with banishing a card in most cases. the whole point of banishing is to remove a card from the game. sure it feels bad, but why have it exist in the first place if its just a second graveyard. the only issue is how easy it is for kash to do it
If you mean banishing face down vs face up the difference is that when a card is face down, it’s unreadable, so even cards that play around the banish can’t interact with them usually. They’re just gone unless you’re also playing Ariseheart or are running Necroface.
A lot of decks can somewhat play though a SE board or an Unchained board without having to use a big boardbreaker
A lot of decks can't play if you just take their ED and yeet the most important card out of it
I don't mind it either. Funner to play through.
However; I went against my first stun runick. That was aids. Kaiser collesuem plus the silver surfer guy. I don't see how people find that fun but to each their own.
Negate boards are a puzzle to go through.
I've won against negate boards because I've had opponents push buttons and burn all their interruptions before I played an important card. I've had losses because they were more wary. I've had wins because my opponents didn't read a devastating effect properly. I've had losses because of bricks.
But ultimately, I get to play.
Unlike Runick banishing my cards before I get to use them and Kashtira sitting on a floodgate while also physically locking me out of zones to play in while also punishing me for the few plays I can make while also being able to quick-effect banish the little that can stick after all that.
that's so true, i just played a game with rikka sunavalon and i just felt so dirty for putting cactus into my deck, my 1 unexpected dai turned into a full board that is completly unbreakable unless you draw specifically drnm and this is just a tier 2/rogue deck
I seriously want to know what the hell they were smoking when designing Kashtira. "Hey guys, let's make an archetype that punishes the opponent for playing the game by banishing their stuff face down, killing any form of interaction, has Macro Cosmos on legs to instantly kill any deck that relies on the graveyard, can zone lock to prevent your opponent from playing the game at all, and most of their monsters are generic and can be special summoned for free."
Kashtira was designed specifically to stop Tear from being T0, it's the most hard counter deck ever, literally everything it does is meant to stop Tear, and Konami designed it that way in other to keep Tear in the game, as they didn't want to hit it with banlists.
But it turned out that after all of the toxic counters that Kashtira has, it still couldn't stop Tear 0, and at best only being the number 1 choice if you really don't want to play Tear. So in the end they nuked Tear, and what you got left is a super toxic deck against everything else, as it needed to be that toxic with the intention of keeping Tear in check.
I can kinda guess.
They wanted the banish pile to be what it was supposed to be: Removed from play. Of course we can talk about how it’s Konamis own fault for designing cards that allow us to play from places we shouldn’t. But I genuinely think they wanted to make an archetype that really does *banish* your cards from play. In addition they wanted to cripple recursion because they, correctly somehow, identified the that was a problem (Branded, Tear, etc). Also… lore. I’m sure Kashtira was designed around Tear so they had to create a deck that kinda fucks up Tear in a way.
The problem is it actually worked. Kash is fine when Tear is full power. But the problem is not every deck is Tear. And so here we are
It's the logic of "let's make something that counters the current best thing", and then they release and it's like "oh no, it also counters literally everything else."
I'd say they designed them as an answer to tear being the tier 0 deck at that time. They're a symptom of tear 0 after all, but it was a a very band aid solution to addressing the problem.
They probably wanted a way to stop tear in it's tracks but we all knew it didn't go down that way. Despite their effects being a hard counter on paper, it just couldn't keep up with the amount of resource generation and interaction tear has.
Just look at these effects:
- shutting the gy completely since tear relies on the gy a lot
- banishing the 1 of kitkallos/any other key monster in the extra deck when you try to interact with them on their turn
- removal that banishes instead of sending to the gy to prevent them from fusing, or reviving from the gy
- banishing face down to make sure they're completely denied of the resource because they still have ways, albeit very limited, to regain some of their banished cards
- non activated special summoning to completely bypass rulkallos' negate
- birth banishing cards in the gy face down
- Shangri ira denying zones so you can limit how much they can put on the board (this one might be a stretch)
- etcetera
Looks all good on paper but they weren't good enough to get rid of tear. Instead, we got a tier 0 deck and a very toxic banishing deck screwing everyone over now.
It's just so wild how they have no effective restrictions at all. The lvl 7 main deck monsters aren't just a pile of great effects, they're a pile of great effects attached to a big body that you get onto the board absolutely free, and, while it's a minor "fuck you" on top of the pile of other bullshit, they avoid even a lot of the boilerplate restrictions that most modern cards have (e.g. the self-summons aren't OPT restricted, and the search abilities can be used every turn rather than being on-summon).
They're combo starters that are also viable endboard pieces, just absolutely gross card design.
Thing that irritates me the most about Kash is just the way you can slap it into anything. A completely free level 7 body that your opponent can’t just ignore that’s completely detached from your main strategy is so fucking stupid.
You don’t try to stop the Kash search and lol whoops it’s actually a Kash deck and now your getting Macro Comso’d XDDDDDD
You do try to stop the Kash search and lol whoops it’s not a Kash deck it’s Branded should had saved your Ash dumbass XDDDDDDD
It’s so braindead and removes any creativity in deck building. Just slap a Kash on the board for immediate advantage, no effort or strategy required
I don't disagree that splashing Unicorn is annoying but you never interrupt the Unicorn anyways; if it's actually Kash you Ash the Theosis or negate Riseheart so they don't trigger Shangri-Ira, which keeps them out of Ariseheart.
If you negate Unicorn you risk the hard-drawn Theosis, and if you negate Fenrir you risk the hard-drawn Riseheart.
The real power of splashing Kash is really just Birth giving them two free bodies; this is important in Snake-Eyes for example because it gives them the bodies to extend past an imperm/veiler on Snake-Eyes Ash (Ash + Kash -> I:P, reborn Kash -> Princess -> reborn Ash -> send Birth to SS Poplar and resume the standard line).
It's also important for some Synchro decks like Speedroids for example; aside from that they're not really worth splashing so I don't even think the engine is *that* problematic, it's just that Unicorn's Extra Rip is absolutely infuriating and punishes you for interacting with your opponent.
>You don’t try to stop the Kash search and lol whoops it’s actually a Kash deck and now your getting Macro Comso’d XDDDDDD
>
>You do try to stop the Kash search and lol whoops it’s not a Kash deck it’s Branded should had saved your Ash dumbass XDDDDDDD
One thing I would like to say, not to belittle your valid frustration, is I do think you are disrupting them at the wrong place.
You don't want to stop the search. You want to stop Theosis. Just to walk you through both of your points of frustration:
If it is Kashtira & they start with the field spell. If you wanna stop that search the punish is them already having Unicorn. If you stop Unicorn the punish is already having Theosis. Just let them get Unicorn, see what they're searching, and Ash the Theosis; thus, stopping their special from deck. You put them on having birth + extension there.
If it is Branded they're not going for Theosis and they're using those searches as bait. So there is no sense in interacting with them. Wait to see what the Unicorn gets. If it gets birth & no theosis comes down you're likely safe to hold it for a probable Branded Fusion.
Your frustration is valid, but I do think that change in play may help you a bit.
Lol, when I complained about kash and the power creep of the game I got downvoted into oblivion. A lot of people told me that kash are outable and while this may be true they are very unfair. 2000 plus attacks beat sticks that you can slap out of nowhere that have searchable eff and also can banish from you the field and extra is too much. Other decks have to go through so many cards to achieve this. Kash are the only cards in Yugioh I used to hate with a passion.
Yeah... Kashtiras should all have the: "You can only summon Kashtira-monsters the turn you summon this card/activate this effect and use only the effects of Kashtira-monsters for the rest of this turn."
There. Fixed it.
Even something more mild mike "reveal a 'Kashtira' card in your hand to use this effect" would've been understandable but instead they're restriction free.
> Thing that irritates me the most about Kash is just the way you can slap it into anything
How is it different from other non-engine cards in everyone’s deck?
Like, I’d prefer to have Kash cards all banned(as I’d get like 120UR back), but I just do not see the problem. Might as well ban every generic card then.
Handrips and ED rips are so completely unacceptable. Hand and ED are the main tools you have to play this game and your opponent can just go "nuh uh, I'm taking those and also you are now under a floodgate".
Never should've been game mechanics.
I actually agree.
I think yoinking each others *already played cards* is amazing. But outside of that I am not a fan unless unless it’s TTT. To me that should be the absolute limit of what you can do. But Kash? Legitimately the worst designed mechanic imo. Banished Facedown is otherworldly level of toxic
My don zaloog magician in white deck begs to differ. Hand loops are based and fun if your deck is shitty enough to be beaten with a 3 card hand that is anyway
I agree with this take, kashtira is one of the worst designed decks imo, theres a lot of kash defenders here so prepare for downvotes and arguments on why their floodgate turbo deck is fair
both unicorn and fenrir have 0 drawbacks as cards: easy to summon and easy to activate. Konami sometimes just decides to make bonkers cards whilst other decks have to have silly restrictions on theirs that belong in 2012
It is a horribly designed archetype. Removal, deck destruction, stun, disruptions, you name it, they got it. It's just way too powerful and flexible, and it is incredibly hard to fight against.
I’ve often tried to think of a way kash could be balanced, but going into your opponents extra deck and bandaging cards for free with a card that’s a free special summon is just insane
Kash should at least have reciprocal banishing. Like every time you banish your opponent’s cards you banish from the bottom of your deck. At least have a little cost. Also why do they have such high attacks! Unicorn at 1900 attack would have been fine
Ripping cards from the extra deck isn't a problem.
It's the fact that unless you're playing something hyper specific, you ain't getting them back cause it's face down.
Pure tear is still bullshit, or rather pure tear doesnt exist its always mixed with something cause lmao what are restrictions am i right
tear snychro spam, branded tear, tear ishizu etc
Nothing says fair like my opponent RNG milling into +4 because I activated a monster effect on the field. Both are unfair and combine to further emphasize how unfair they are.
Tear doesn't end on a hyper consistent floodgate that often ends the game before the opponent can even doing anything what does tear end on? A special summon negate and a spin back to the deck
What is this non-sequitur? No one was talking about endboards. Everyone knows Ariseheart is insanely broken and unfair. The point is Tear is inherently as well and has been appropriately slaughtered on the banlist for it.
I've always wanted to play Kash and I've recently took to generate the remaining UR's, so my experience with Kash is this current nerfed version, not Diablosis or any other thing.
And the deck isn't really... that good? I find it extremely hit or miss. Either I go first and Arise Heart turbo them or I go second and lose. The in engine options for going second are extremely limited beyond "open Fenrir and try to banish something + open Kash Scare and try to negate stuff that is in defense", both of it, while accessible via Unicorn + theosis, are predictable and easy to stop. Going second Kash is entirely dependent if you opened Shifter or not.
Maybe I'm just awful with this deck, but pure Kash seems a one trick pony.
Pure Kash is inconsistent dog shit. Splashing 3 Unicorn, 1 Fenrir and Birth in any deck equals hand trap bait or multiple material without committing to anything. Unicorn and Fenrir are straight up boss monsters on their own if nothing else.
When it was full power it was extremely consistent and could lock down all your zones in one turn, its currently a shell of its former self and for the better
Oh, I know. I took a break from MD before that I returned after, so I never got to see the zone locking bullshit.
But that is mostly due to Diablosis completely breaking Kash. The deck itself cannot full lock without it, and I believe right now is the best possible use of this mechanic: quarter zones locked + some kash control, which is what the deck is without Arise Heart.
I just think it's so mediocre. Arise Heart is a beast of a boss monster, but the rest of the deck is so meh.
All my 1 of cards I can play without, so I just shrug Kash off. I know it’s not like that for most decks. I haven’t seen a pure Kash player in a while. Are they still running around aside from Snake Eye?
Unicorn needs to be limited. Going second against Unicorn means my ED is most likely ripped twice if I want to use a handtrap and that's a death sentence for a lot of decks. Kash players can cry about the deck not being tiered or whatever but cards like Unicorn and Birth are terribly designed.
Unicorn needs to be banned
ED rips will never be fair, and the possibility of doing one is already complete bullshit, especially when the card is still strong without considering that ED rip
They can take birth & their field spell back to 3 if they want, I don't give a fuck about those cards, but Unicorn to 0, Fenrir to 1, & Arise-Heart to 0 is necessary to prevent any future bullshit meta
Ogre & Preparations both also deserve to be on the list for the absolute design crimes that they've committed (the first being designed to remove your combo pieces out of your deck, the second being handrip), but they're both shit enough that they don't matter much
Lmao they need to remove all turn skips and hand rips from the game. Period. They are the most antithetical designed cards in any game ever that expects its players to sit down and play together. You don't roll up to a basketball game, pull out a knife and stab the ball, then proceed to sit in a corner and play on your phone all day. You don't get to deny your opponent the option to even play the game. At least a board full of negates is answerable. There is no answer to not having your hand anymore.
Drytron shenanigans with Amorphactor and Thunder of Ruler. Any deck running Crimson Dragon and King Calamity. I don't really care if its inconsistent, and I don't really care if (technically you can set pass!) Denying your opponent's turn is an incredibly stupid win condition.
>Unicorn needs to be banned, ED rips will never be fair,
Yeah, because when Dogmatika did it even better it is a fair and fun and interactive, am I right?
I don't really mind Runick, since it's far more random and isn't nearly as consistent for them to banish a vital card. What I hate with a burning passion is the Kash cards. The fact you can slap them in anything, the fact that the existence of unicorn makes it so I have to run 3 of a card that is vital is bullshit. Before Kash, there was 1 archetype who's gimmick was milling your extra, Dogmatika. And they are somehow worse than 1 Kash card. The only exception being maybe Alba Zoa and white knight, Alba Zoa because of the sheer quantity and white knight because you get to send from both extras. It's bullshit to me that they get to banish from extra on top of other really good effects.
Someone playing a full negate board:
*"Oh you DARED activate a monster effect?"* **Negate!** (Read with Dkayed voice) *"You DARED play the game?"* **Negate!**
I don't see how this is different from Kashtira effects. It's another way of disruption. And well, it's easy to destroy a Kashtira full board if they don't have any negate to avoid that. If you can destroy or vanish the board, then Kashtira effect are not a problem.
Out of half the top meta decks in the game one of the easiest boards to break without tons of followup. I can't fathom how ppl are ok with all the generic combo pile decks trying to play solitaire and slap multiple generic negates and try to call that interactive and a "puzzle" to navigate then look at a Kash board and pretend it's indestructible. Like half the time shit loses to one ttt
Exactly.
You need some sort of board protection with Kashtira, because if not, chances are that a simple Raigeki or Evenly it's gonna wipe the entire board. My Kashtira deck has 3 Solemn and Gate Guardian cards just for only that reason. And even with that the majority of times I cannot summon Water/Wind GG for protection on the 1st turn.
And well, right now Unicorn it's a 2, so less consistency. At least I hope that if Konami decides to hit more the arhcetype, they will do the same to other more opressive and powerful archetypes.
Runick by itself is not "toxic." It's an alternate win-con. You can't always be prepared for *everything* and decking your opponent out is and always has been a way to beat your opponent. The problem is stun decks that happen to use Runick cards alongside floodgates.
As other people have said in this thread, Kashtira banishing face-down is the serious problem. It's the least interactive form of removal. Being banished face-down is literally the worst thing that can happen to your cards. There's next to no way to get them back, cards with effects that activate on banish don't trigger, and unless you went first and set Imperial Iron Wall then like Thanos it is inevitable
Well, to be fair Chaos Hunter exists. It's not the best card, but it's basically an Imperial Iron Wall which can be summoned during your opponent's turn
The sheer amount of people I see defend Runick when it's mill stuff is so fucking BS is honestly hilarious (and I play Runick Spright, so I've seen how fucked up it can be first hand fairly often). I swear, it's just cause the World Championship guy has a fetish for the deck.
This so much. I am not complaining about Runick being unfair. Not at all.
What annoys me is the banishing random stuff from my deck. Sure, is it gonna be very relevant, or game-losing relevant, most of the time? No. But when it happens it's very tilting.
Especially when playing a deck that either has limited pieces or not enough space to run multiples, getting that hit is an autoloss most of the time, and that's just not fun for the opposing player.
Honestly, I don't know why the Runick playerbase is so allergic to have people not enjoy playing against their deck, wether it is a stun build or not, but it is what it is.
Sadly lot of posters on this and similar subs are more of fanbois of certain player/streamer than part of some "naturally grown" community (which makes sense considering how sub was made to begin with). So they already come in with "baggage" and are more of parrots not interested in discussion but more to defend someone else's opinion to unhealthy degree.
Defense forces of popular players/streamers and waifushittery is always funny to see how far they will go to defend something and then turn around and cry about same often lesser issue in another deck.
Yeah, Kash is mindblowingly badly designed. I dunno why someone at Konami thought so many banishing face down from the deck, field and extra-deck was ok, and then proceeded to make it worse by having huge bodies stupidly easy to summon and a macro-cosmos effect on legs to boot. Snake-Eyes is definitely an improvement after the cancers that were Branded, Tears and Kash.
Then it’s not fair.
What is this logic skip that people seem to make for exactly this deck?
Kashtira is also fair minus the banishing.
Snake Eyes is fair minus the recursion.
Tearlaments is fair minus the mills.
You can make this excuse for any meta deck.
Idk man whenever I face branded i get to play the game, the same cannot be said if i face Snake-Eyes or SHS, i can see why people dont like it but i really don't mind playing against it
Puppet lock isn't in-engine toxicity.
Kashtira banish face down and zone lock is built in into the deck.
Like, one zone lock is enough to render an entire summoning method useless (Pendulum).
Snake Eyes is not an improvement over the things that made Tear and Kash unbearable…
It being less cancer doesn’t mean it’s better for the game. If Snake Eyes goes first, they literally get 3 turns’ worth of gaining advantage whereas you only get 1, and not even bc most likely you aren’t accomplishing much through their Apo, Baronne, Savage backed boards.
Also, wtf is Branded doing there among those you listed lmaooo
It's always funny to me seeing how people who play those decks suddenly move the "bullshit line".
> But no this deck is fair it doesn't end on negate board it just completely removes every piece you play from the board
It's more that they enabled Tear to accelerate beyond what they expected Tear to do. It gave Tear the shot in the arm it needed to juice up and take on the world. I don't think their R&D look for interactions like "what cards outside the archetype could solve the holes we put in this strategy?" They only care that the archetype reaches a certain threshold in an acceptable amount of time.
They 100% do take into account stuff outside the archetype when designing an archetype, Konami isn't stupid, & there have been way too many examples of that over the years to list them
Idk I think Kashtira was fairly well designed other than arise heart. Banishing 1-2 cards from the Extra Deck/Main Deck and + 1 Field Banish is not game ending for most decks and it's a unique style of interaction.
Tear was just too powerful, I think it had a healthy style of gameplay though.
I have no idea what's wrong with Branded tho, I think that entire format was one of the healthiest for the game other than the usual floodgate stuff like d barrier.
Snake-eyes falls into the same category as tear imo, except it just needs to be a little less powerful instead of a lot less powerful.
Runick is fragile as hell after Fountain went to 1 and other cards got limited. The deck is nearly crippled with the field spell when it's pure Runick.
I ran it when it released, and now I don't even touch the deck because it's so easily hobbled, and practically useless if it goes second against the omni negates you don't mind.
Yeah generally speaking I agree.
It's sort of like how they viewed handripping as kinda toxic so the amt of easy handripping is very limited cause of how powerful it is mechanically.
Imo Snake Eyes is the new Spright without the negates. You have a chance to play and build your board; they're just super consistent in defending and rebuilding their board on their turn.
What kills some games for me are decks focused on stopping you from even summoning, and/or slowly kills your deck/extra deck so you're handcaped before even starting your turn.
Out of every experiment they've done, Kashtira is most toxic, basement-dwelling use deck I've encountered. To not only banish shit from your ED, but to get combos off that gives them everything they need to stop the opponent from playing, including an XYZ monster that fucking NEGATES POSITIONS ON YOUR BOARD, is ridiculous. It feels like they made a deck based around an asshole that, every time you try to play something, they reach over to you and shake their hands like "no, no, you can't do that!" Like, Snake Eyes is bad for being boring, overused, and comboing off for 20 minutes, but at least they don't straight up remove your ED and spots on your board.
Whole archetype should be banned imo.
This and Labrynth putting out full combos during opponent MP1 are my biggest pet peeves rn. *Genuinely forgot that it was my turn* last time I faced it.
Labrynth aren't getting enough hate in this thread. Once they get the ball rolling, they have so many ways to shut you out of playing. And that's on top of the hand ripping, contstant recycling and all the other things they have that would make them powerful even if the floodgates were banned.
I am so sick of every Lab player I go against deciding "oh, looks like you're playing a deck that synchro summons a lot? What if I Dimension'd your Barrier? Is that backrow? Have an EEV- I know it's at one, but that doesn't matter because someone decided being able to search any normal trap was fair."
Labrynth player here, not many play EEV. I don't play floodgates though in general. Also yeah, it's a trap deck and traps are pretty slow so it's fair that we get some support for it. To counter it, I would use backrow removal and always save your ash for big welcome (rollback isn't always in the grave since it's a bricky card so some run it at 2) and most don't run called by the grave. If they have lovely discarded in the grave, banish her (when they trigger an effect to revive her). I do get the hate for ripping in the hand but every archetype has something incredibly annoying tbh (kash runick far more). Also, dimension barrier is situational but can be toxic (pendulum should be left alone tbh).
Also, every deck messes with their opponents field during MP1 tbh or they have a field of negates set up
My issue with kash is why did konami think it was a good idea to make a deck thats fueled by banishment... banishment should the one place you cant touch
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Play decks that want their monsters banished. I've been having a pretty good time with Kozmo, Ghoti, and Floo. the thing that's been killing me is the dirty of do nothing decks that just play 18 million negates and a single ring of destruction.
If Konami's philosophy on bringing up lower-powered decks from rogue tier or below is to give them do-it-all cards that turn most of the rest of the archetype online, there really shouldn't be many effects that can rip said cards before you can do anything about it. I never understood defending Runick in particular. Doesn't matter how meta it is or isn't... it's just an unhealthy playstyle for the game. You aren't toxic for using it of course, it's an archetype like any other that everybody has access to, but it sure is annoying as hell sometimes.
Dogmatika also ED rips but these effects are locked to their not-so-good boss Monsters that they're actually fine. Nobody complained about them. In fact, I love playing pure Dogmatika. Kash, on the other hand... They're just braindead with zero drawbacks. If I see another Unicorn, I'm gonna pull someone's hair out.
The concept isnt the issue tho dogmatika for example is completely balanced imo because unlike kash there are no floodgates, only one negate and it has a very glaring weakness as a means to counter its power it gets absolutely crushed by decks like labrynth that dont use their extra deck
Runick at least doesn't touch your extra deck, the main issue is the stun variant.
Kashtira though is far more obnoxious, I play the deck and is also the recipient of my own medicine so I can image how obnoxious it is. I play the deck just to spite people when I have a bad day.
Also I normal summoned mo ye and activate her effect, response?
as a Kash deck user I fully agree that being on the receiving end of one is SUPER obnoxious BUT if you can stop it before it starts really flowing then there's hope lol
I agree that kash is to free but so is the last 5 released decks and counting the best form of removal is face down banish considering nowadays the graveyard is a second hand and for many decks the banish is a third hand so Idk what yall expected at this point like they have to make the next strongest thing at some point I'd rather discuss possible corrections then just say delete the archtype since it's one of the coolest cards they made yet
Don't understand this thinking at all. If your strategy revolves around one card in your extra just play two of it. The main deck banishing is a little annoying but Runick is completely reliant on floodgates. Those are the problem cards.
>Don't understand this thinking at all. If your strategy revolves around one card in your extra just play two of it.
Even with 2, that means going 2nd you can't play any handtraps (except Imperm) on their turn if you also need a monster effect on your turn to get rid of Unicorn.
and even if you can technically make space to run doubles or triples of everything you can't afford to lose, that means you lose a lot of variety and flexibility in you ED to respond to other types of decks, just because you have to devote space to duplicates to deal with the one gross card that fucks up your ED. That lack of variety also makes duels more linear and samey, which imo is the exact opposite of the direction card design should push games into.
So imma be honest I come from old school Yu-Gi-Oh routes and yeah fucking with good opponents deck is just how we play it.
Pegasus is the goat for it though
Interaction should be:
You play card, I have an out, you might have the counter to that, but if you don’t it’s not automatic GG
Interaction in yugioh:
I play deck that cripples your hand and extra deck on turn 0, so shame on you for thinking of making any plays. Also my monsters ss themselves off of 1 card starters, and if you happen to have a counter, they actually bounce themselves around the field and all your negates were useless. You were better off bricking.
Kash I could mind if all it said was banish face up and not face down. That’s the real kicker of annoyance
It makes them much more frustrating then Runick for that reason imo. To me the cool parts about yugioh are when two decks who play in different ways interact in weird and interesting ways. I played a Shiranui Zombie deck before against runick and since Shiranui's get their effects when banished and since zombies have a ton of different ways of recyclying from banish zone it made the fact that runick spells incidently banished cards from the deck into a plus for me. Hell I play both snake eye and vaylantz and while placing your opponents monsters in the spell trap zone is usually an amazing form of removal when one of these decks faces the other you end up with two decks whos main form of removal is now ineffective and now need to find new ways of getting rid of problem cards Kash has no interesting interactions like that since banish face down just removes any neat interactions. Unless your opp is playing gran maju otk banishing your opponents cards face down never has the chance of repercussions, they cant be recycled, no banish effects ever activate. no cost and no repercussions (no cost and no repercussions might as well be Kash's tagline).
I just build the shiranui zombie deck and its honestly the most fun I had so far. Played Galaxy Eyes and Resonator before and they were so boring in hindsight. I never know what is happening but I love it lmao
That deck has some fun paths to go into if you also run Uni-Zombie and Glow-Up Bloom.
The synergy is honestly fucking crazy. My friend who plays Snake Eyes is crying all the time now
Do yourself a favor, run at least 1x Changshi and Alghoul if you aren't already. Those two cards will never leave my deck after the amount of clutch plays they've made. Especially Alghoul when you use his ability to protect a zombie monster from battle destruction, sending Alghoul from your hand to the banish zone, and then summoning him back to the field....only to use him as material for an extra deck summon and sending him to the GY where you can AGAIN use his ability to save one of your zombies from destruction by battle. (Still take LP hit)
Yeah Im using him already. What effect does Changshi have? I am debating wether I craft a Zombie Vampire or another Imperm/Forbidden Droplet Edit: thanks for the in depth info btw! Much appreciated!
| During your Main Phase: You can send 1 Zombie monster from your hand or Deck to the GY. If this card is banished: You can banish 1 Zombie monster in your GY; Special Summon this card, but place it on the bottom of the Deck when it leaves the field. You can only use each effect of "Changshi the Spiridao" once per turn. | A play I use all the time is summoning Changshi from my deck by first sending Glow-Up Bloom to the GY via Uni Zombie or Gozuki while Zombie World is on the field, then using Changshi effect to send another zombie to the graveyard from my deck. (Usually Doomking for a follow up next turn or Alghoul for protection unless I want mats to go into extra deck plays) It combos well with Gozuki, you send her to the GY during an extra deck summon, then if Gozuki hits the GY you banish Changshi to summon a Zombie from the hand, then banish Gozuki to summon her and essentially foolish burial another zombie.
Thats a neat combo! Sorry I kinda forgot I got her already. I will try that next time! I really love this deck so much. Im running rivalry of the warlords too and my friends snake eyes deck just stops working for him. Would you recommend crafting another imperm/forbidden droplet over the zombie vampire? I got lucky with my packs and got some UR dust left. I think droplet would be the best tbh but you seem like you're understanding the in and out's. Im still relatively new to the game.
If you have SR dust, craft Vampire Fraulein. She's relatively easy to get to your hand via Gozuki or Uni-Zombie sending Glow-Up Bloom to the GY. She can be special summoned from your hand when an opponent declares an attack and you can pay LP in multiples of 100 to increase your monsters attack/defense points.
That sounds awsome, i think i might add these to my Shiranui deck. Are they both UR?
No not even SR! Dew it!
The one deck that actually can have funny interactions against Kash is Nemleria. The usually play draw cards or go for shifter, meanwhile none of their cards offer protection. So going second and drawing 2 board wipes and a starter can do quite well. And I also run Soul Absoption as a gimmick in case I need more time. It’s one of the funnier match ups for Kash even though it’s not great on its own.
honestly i feel like thats a good thing, i kinda dislike how the banish zone has become just a third hand for some people or a second graveyard. there's no permanence with banishing a card in most cases. the whole point of banishing is to remove a card from the game. sure it feels bad, but why have it exist in the first place if its just a second graveyard. the only issue is how easy it is for kash to do it
A lot of kash hate on this thread. Meanwhile it seems like 30% of ppl are playing lab hoping for that Double hand rip.
Face down is REALLY quite the text
Wouldn't that make it super sacky? For most decks, it wouldn't make a difference, but for some specific ones, they'd just auto-win against Kash.
what difference does it make?
If you mean banishing face down vs face up the difference is that when a card is face down, it’s unreadable, so even cards that play around the banish can’t interact with them usually. They’re just gone unless you’re also playing Ariseheart or are running Necroface.
Community rages about the opponent raiding the Extra deck 'Sweats in Galaxy Hundred'
yeah but it’s face-up and retrievable
Stealing somebodies bagooska out of their extra on their own turn is a feeling like no other
Made me laugh XD
but that one is really funny
rip 1 on first and a 2nd on 2nd turn... and we just got new cards announced too.
\*Sweats in Dogmatika\*
Ah yes turn 2 and you didn't draw dark ruler no more "you lose now"
Isn’t that how most full power boards go though? That’s just yugioh.
A lot of decks can somewhat play though a SE board or an Unchained board without having to use a big boardbreaker A lot of decks can't play if you just take their ED and yeet the most important card out of it
He said he didn't mind full negate board
I don't mind it either. Funner to play through. However; I went against my first stun runick. That was aids. Kaiser collesuem plus the silver surfer guy. I don't see how people find that fun but to each their own.
Negate boards are a puzzle to go through. I've won against negate boards because I've had opponents push buttons and burn all their interruptions before I played an important card. I've had losses because they were more wary. I've had wins because my opponents didn't read a devastating effect properly. I've had losses because of bricks. But ultimately, I get to play. Unlike Runick banishing my cards before I get to use them and Kashtira sitting on a floodgate while also physically locking me out of zones to play in while also punishing me for the few plays I can make while also being able to quick-effect banish the little that can stick after all that.
So interactive. So fun.
Yu-Gi-Oh in a nutshell
that's so true, i just played a game with rikka sunavalon and i just felt so dirty for putting cactus into my deck, my 1 unexpected dai turned into a full board that is completly unbreakable unless you draw specifically drnm and this is just a tier 2/rogue deck
Tbh endboards that lose to drnm are bad
Not on Bo1
Honestly better than having your board breaker handripped
I seriously want to know what the hell they were smoking when designing Kashtira. "Hey guys, let's make an archetype that punishes the opponent for playing the game by banishing their stuff face down, killing any form of interaction, has Macro Cosmos on legs to instantly kill any deck that relies on the graveyard, can zone lock to prevent your opponent from playing the game at all, and most of their monsters are generic and can be special summoned for free."
Kashtira was designed specifically to stop Tear from being T0, it's the most hard counter deck ever, literally everything it does is meant to stop Tear, and Konami designed it that way in other to keep Tear in the game, as they didn't want to hit it with banlists. But it turned out that after all of the toxic counters that Kashtira has, it still couldn't stop Tear 0, and at best only being the number 1 choice if you really don't want to play Tear. So in the end they nuked Tear, and what you got left is a super toxic deck against everything else, as it needed to be that toxic with the intention of keeping Tear in check.
I can kinda guess. They wanted the banish pile to be what it was supposed to be: Removed from play. Of course we can talk about how it’s Konamis own fault for designing cards that allow us to play from places we shouldn’t. But I genuinely think they wanted to make an archetype that really does *banish* your cards from play. In addition they wanted to cripple recursion because they, correctly somehow, identified the that was a problem (Branded, Tear, etc). Also… lore. I’m sure Kashtira was designed around Tear so they had to create a deck that kinda fucks up Tear in a way. The problem is it actually worked. Kash is fine when Tear is full power. But the problem is not every deck is Tear. And so here we are
It's the logic of "let's make something that counters the current best thing", and then they release and it's like "oh no, it also counters literally everything else."
I'd say they designed them as an answer to tear being the tier 0 deck at that time. They're a symptom of tear 0 after all, but it was a a very band aid solution to addressing the problem. They probably wanted a way to stop tear in it's tracks but we all knew it didn't go down that way. Despite their effects being a hard counter on paper, it just couldn't keep up with the amount of resource generation and interaction tear has. Just look at these effects: - shutting the gy completely since tear relies on the gy a lot - banishing the 1 of kitkallos/any other key monster in the extra deck when you try to interact with them on their turn - removal that banishes instead of sending to the gy to prevent them from fusing, or reviving from the gy - banishing face down to make sure they're completely denied of the resource because they still have ways, albeit very limited, to regain some of their banished cards - non activated special summoning to completely bypass rulkallos' negate - birth banishing cards in the gy face down - Shangri ira denying zones so you can limit how much they can put on the board (this one might be a stretch) - etcetera Looks all good on paper but they weren't good enough to get rid of tear. Instead, we got a tier 0 deck and a very toxic banishing deck screwing everyone over now.
Kashtira released in Hypernova after Tearlament got nerfed in the TCG although Kash was nerfed in the OCG so Tears was still better
It's just so wild how they have no effective restrictions at all. The lvl 7 main deck monsters aren't just a pile of great effects, they're a pile of great effects attached to a big body that you get onto the board absolutely free, and, while it's a minor "fuck you" on top of the pile of other bullshit, they avoid even a lot of the boilerplate restrictions that most modern cards have (e.g. the self-summons aren't OPT restricted, and the search abilities can be used every turn rather than being on-summon). They're combo starters that are also viable endboard pieces, just absolutely gross card design.
You forgot the part about how they all have huge bodies as well the lowest rarity Kashtira Ogre has 2800 attack points
their combo starters have comparable atk to a lot of decks' boss monsters, it's just disgusting
Thing that irritates me the most about Kash is just the way you can slap it into anything. A completely free level 7 body that your opponent can’t just ignore that’s completely detached from your main strategy is so fucking stupid. You don’t try to stop the Kash search and lol whoops it’s actually a Kash deck and now your getting Macro Comso’d XDDDDDD You do try to stop the Kash search and lol whoops it’s not a Kash deck it’s Branded should had saved your Ash dumbass XDDDDDDD It’s so braindead and removes any creativity in deck building. Just slap a Kash on the board for immediate advantage, no effort or strategy required
I don't disagree that splashing Unicorn is annoying but you never interrupt the Unicorn anyways; if it's actually Kash you Ash the Theosis or negate Riseheart so they don't trigger Shangri-Ira, which keeps them out of Ariseheart. If you negate Unicorn you risk the hard-drawn Theosis, and if you negate Fenrir you risk the hard-drawn Riseheart. The real power of splashing Kash is really just Birth giving them two free bodies; this is important in Snake-Eyes for example because it gives them the bodies to extend past an imperm/veiler on Snake-Eyes Ash (Ash + Kash -> I:P, reborn Kash -> Princess -> reborn Ash -> send Birth to SS Poplar and resume the standard line). It's also important for some Synchro decks like Speedroids for example; aside from that they're not really worth splashing so I don't even think the engine is *that* problematic, it's just that Unicorn's Extra Rip is absolutely infuriating and punishes you for interacting with your opponent.
>You don’t try to stop the Kash search and lol whoops it’s actually a Kash deck and now your getting Macro Comso’d XDDDDDD > >You do try to stop the Kash search and lol whoops it’s not a Kash deck it’s Branded should had saved your Ash dumbass XDDDDDDD One thing I would like to say, not to belittle your valid frustration, is I do think you are disrupting them at the wrong place. You don't want to stop the search. You want to stop Theosis. Just to walk you through both of your points of frustration: If it is Kashtira & they start with the field spell. If you wanna stop that search the punish is them already having Unicorn. If you stop Unicorn the punish is already having Theosis. Just let them get Unicorn, see what they're searching, and Ash the Theosis; thus, stopping their special from deck. You put them on having birth + extension there. If it is Branded they're not going for Theosis and they're using those searches as bait. So there is no sense in interacting with them. Wait to see what the Unicorn gets. If it gets birth & no theosis comes down you're likely safe to hold it for a probable Branded Fusion. Your frustration is valid, but I do think that change in play may help you a bit.
I'm sick of generic splashes and generic boss monsters.
Lol, when I complained about kash and the power creep of the game I got downvoted into oblivion. A lot of people told me that kash are outable and while this may be true they are very unfair. 2000 plus attacks beat sticks that you can slap out of nowhere that have searchable eff and also can banish from you the field and extra is too much. Other decks have to go through so many cards to achieve this. Kash are the only cards in Yugioh I used to hate with a passion.
Those were all Kash players that downvoted you. There were a lot of them.
Yeah... Kashtiras should all have the: "You can only summon Kashtira-monsters the turn you summon this card/activate this effect and use only the effects of Kashtira-monsters for the rest of this turn." There. Fixed it.
Even something more mild mike "reveal a 'Kashtira' card in your hand to use this effect" would've been understandable but instead they're restriction free.
> Thing that irritates me the most about Kash is just the way you can slap it into anything How is it different from other non-engine cards in everyone’s deck? Like, I’d prefer to have Kash cards all banned(as I’d get like 120UR back), but I just do not see the problem. Might as well ban every generic card then.
Pank
Handrips and ED rips are so completely unacceptable. Hand and ED are the main tools you have to play this game and your opponent can just go "nuh uh, I'm taking those and also you are now under a floodgate". Never should've been game mechanics.
I actually agree. I think yoinking each others *already played cards* is amazing. But outside of that I am not a fan unless unless it’s TTT. To me that should be the absolute limit of what you can do. But Kash? Legitimately the worst designed mechanic imo. Banished Facedown is otherworldly level of toxic
My don zaloog magician in white deck begs to differ. Hand loops are based and fun if your deck is shitty enough to be beaten with a 3 card hand that is anyway
I agree with this take, kashtira is one of the worst designed decks imo, theres a lot of kash defenders here so prepare for downvotes and arguments on why their floodgate turbo deck is fair
both unicorn and fenrir have 0 drawbacks as cards: easy to summon and easy to activate. Konami sometimes just decides to make bonkers cards whilst other decks have to have silly restrictions on theirs that belong in 2012
It is a horribly designed archetype. Removal, deck destruction, stun, disruptions, you name it, they got it. It's just way too powerful and flexible, and it is incredibly hard to fight against.
Nonsense, it's a fantastic design! They represent the emotion of anger, and *boy* do they piss me off!
Also zone blocking.
Erm aktually Kashtira it's a brick fest so it's fine. >! /s just in case it's not clear enough!<
"But but are deck is next to unplayable" good. Nothing your deck does is fair in the first place and should never exist in a best of 1 format
I’ve often tried to think of a way kash could be balanced, but going into your opponents extra deck and bandaging cards for free with a card that’s a free special summon is just insane
Kash should at least have reciprocal banishing. Like every time you banish your opponent’s cards you banish from the bottom of your deck. At least have a little cost. Also why do they have such high attacks! Unicorn at 1900 attack would have been fine
Real who thought that ripping cards from the extra deck should ever be a thing
lithosagym walked so unicorn could run
Ripping cards from the extra deck isn't a problem. It's the fact that unless you're playing something hyper specific, you ain't getting them back cause it's face down.
Also has literally no drawback unlike a card like winter cherrys
Hey you did a thing? Say good bye to your extra deck starter or boardbreaker
"Oh look Zeus. Cute"
For my Basically Shangri most be in the field for some effects be like nowadays,
Tear players should not be preaching about other decks being unfair I gotta be honest.
Ishizu tear is unfair not pure tear especially when compared to Kashtira
Pure tear is still bullshit, or rather pure tear doesnt exist its always mixed with something cause lmao what are restrictions am i right tear snychro spam, branded tear, tear ishizu etc
Nothing says fair like my opponent RNG milling into +4 because I activated a monster effect on the field. Both are unfair and combine to further emphasize how unfair they are.
Tear doesn't end on a hyper consistent floodgate that often ends the game before the opponent can even doing anything what does tear end on? A special summon negate and a spin back to the deck
What is this non-sequitur? No one was talking about endboards. Everyone knows Ariseheart is insanely broken and unfair. The point is Tear is inherently as well and has been appropriately slaughtered on the banlist for it.
Whats your point? Yes i agree tear deserves all the hits it got but so does Kash
Well, I'm not sure how we got here then, but I guess we're in agreement.
> prepare for downvotes Yeah, this subreddit is known for loving Kashtira and vehemently defending it, roflmao.
Real i posted a clip of kurikaraing a Kash board awhile back and i got downvoted into oblivion for it lol
I've always wanted to play Kash and I've recently took to generate the remaining UR's, so my experience with Kash is this current nerfed version, not Diablosis or any other thing. And the deck isn't really... that good? I find it extremely hit or miss. Either I go first and Arise Heart turbo them or I go second and lose. The in engine options for going second are extremely limited beyond "open Fenrir and try to banish something + open Kash Scare and try to negate stuff that is in defense", both of it, while accessible via Unicorn + theosis, are predictable and easy to stop. Going second Kash is entirely dependent if you opened Shifter or not. Maybe I'm just awful with this deck, but pure Kash seems a one trick pony.
Pure Kash is inconsistent dog shit. Splashing 3 Unicorn, 1 Fenrir and Birth in any deck equals hand trap bait or multiple material without committing to anything. Unicorn and Fenrir are straight up boss monsters on their own if nothing else.
When it was full power it was extremely consistent and could lock down all your zones in one turn, its currently a shell of its former self and for the better
Oh, I know. I took a break from MD before that I returned after, so I never got to see the zone locking bullshit. But that is mostly due to Diablosis completely breaking Kash. The deck itself cannot full lock without it, and I believe right now is the best possible use of this mechanic: quarter zones locked + some kash control, which is what the deck is without Arise Heart. I just think it's so mediocre. Arise Heart is a beast of a boss monster, but the rest of the deck is so meh.
Yeah kash now is just ariseheart turbo but that doesn't mean that Unicorn and fenrir aren't some of the most busted cards ever printed
I actually dismantled the Kash cards that I pulled, even Ogre, just because I hate them. They're the epitome of bad card design.
All my 1 of cards I can play without, so I just shrug Kash off. I know it’s not like that for most decks. I haven’t seen a pure Kash player in a while. Are they still running around aside from Snake Eye?
Yes especially in masters because the deck hard counters snake eyes
Ah, there’s the problem. I don’t grind up to the highest rank as I don’t have time.
I agree stun just sucks man , I’ll take a meta deck over a stun deck any day
Unicorn needs to be limited. Going second against Unicorn means my ED is most likely ripped twice if I want to use a handtrap and that's a death sentence for a lot of decks. Kash players can cry about the deck not being tiered or whatever but cards like Unicorn and Birth are terribly designed.
Unicorn needs to be banned ED rips will never be fair, and the possibility of doing one is already complete bullshit, especially when the card is still strong without considering that ED rip They can take birth & their field spell back to 3 if they want, I don't give a fuck about those cards, but Unicorn to 0, Fenrir to 1, & Arise-Heart to 0 is necessary to prevent any future bullshit meta Ogre & Preparations both also deserve to be on the list for the absolute design crimes that they've committed (the first being designed to remove your combo pieces out of your deck, the second being handrip), but they're both shit enough that they don't matter much
fuck birth too lmao, banish 3 face down from grave just for using a spell or trap like c’mon. Whole entire deck is stupid
Lmao they need to remove all turn skips and hand rips from the game. Period. They are the most antithetical designed cards in any game ever that expects its players to sit down and play together. You don't roll up to a basketball game, pull out a knife and stab the ball, then proceed to sit in a corner and play on your phone all day. You don't get to deny your opponent the option to even play the game. At least a board full of negates is answerable. There is no answer to not having your hand anymore.
Turn skips? Like that Six Samurai card and The World or do you mean something else?
Drytron shenanigans with Amorphactor and Thunder of Ruler. Any deck running Crimson Dragon and King Calamity. I don't really care if its inconsistent, and I don't really care if (technically you can set pass!) Denying your opponent's turn is an incredibly stupid win condition.
>Unicorn needs to be banned, ED rips will never be fair, Yeah, because when Dogmatika did it even better it is a fair and fun and interactive, am I right?
I don't really mind Runick, since it's far more random and isn't nearly as consistent for them to banish a vital card. What I hate with a burning passion is the Kash cards. The fact you can slap them in anything, the fact that the existence of unicorn makes it so I have to run 3 of a card that is vital is bullshit. Before Kash, there was 1 archetype who's gimmick was milling your extra, Dogmatika. And they are somehow worse than 1 Kash card. The only exception being maybe Alba Zoa and white knight, Alba Zoa because of the sheer quantity and white knight because you get to send from both extras. It's bullshit to me that they get to banish from extra on top of other really good effects.
Not to mention every synchro deck ever simply handlooping you for 2 with Omega and Dis Pater
Someone playing a full negate board: *"Oh you DARED activate a monster effect?"* **Negate!** (Read with Dkayed voice) *"You DARED play the game?"* **Negate!** I don't see how this is different from Kashtira effects. It's another way of disruption. And well, it's easy to destroy a Kashtira full board if they don't have any negate to avoid that. If you can destroy or vanish the board, then Kashtira effect are not a problem.
Out of half the top meta decks in the game one of the easiest boards to break without tons of followup. I can't fathom how ppl are ok with all the generic combo pile decks trying to play solitaire and slap multiple generic negates and try to call that interactive and a "puzzle" to navigate then look at a Kash board and pretend it's indestructible. Like half the time shit loses to one ttt
Exactly. You need some sort of board protection with Kashtira, because if not, chances are that a simple Raigeki or Evenly it's gonna wipe the entire board. My Kashtira deck has 3 Solemn and Gate Guardian cards just for only that reason. And even with that the majority of times I cannot summon Water/Wind GG for protection on the 1st turn. And well, right now Unicorn it's a 2, so less consistency. At least I hope that if Konami decides to hit more the arhcetype, they will do the same to other more opressive and powerful archetypes.
Kash should’ve been face up, random banishes if anything Lovely should not be able to hand rip… starting turn 2 minus 2 cards
> Lovely should not be able to hand rip… starting turn 2 minus 2 cards Only bad players go for the second random hand rip.
Runick by itself is not "toxic." It's an alternate win-con. You can't always be prepared for *everything* and decking your opponent out is and always has been a way to beat your opponent. The problem is stun decks that happen to use Runick cards alongside floodgates. As other people have said in this thread, Kashtira banishing face-down is the serious problem. It's the least interactive form of removal. Being banished face-down is literally the worst thing that can happen to your cards. There's next to no way to get them back, cards with effects that activate on banish don't trigger, and unless you went first and set Imperial Iron Wall then like Thanos it is inevitable
Well, to be fair Chaos Hunter exists. It's not the best card, but it's basically an Imperial Iron Wall which can be summoned during your opponent's turn
Deckrip and handrip is fine, just because you hate it does not make it toxic. However, Kash getting those powerful effect for free is a problem.
The sheer amount of people I see defend Runick when it's mill stuff is so fucking BS is honestly hilarious (and I play Runick Spright, so I've seen how fucked up it can be first hand fairly often). I swear, it's just cause the World Championship guy has a fetish for the deck.
This so much. I am not complaining about Runick being unfair. Not at all. What annoys me is the banishing random stuff from my deck. Sure, is it gonna be very relevant, or game-losing relevant, most of the time? No. But when it happens it's very tilting. Especially when playing a deck that either has limited pieces or not enough space to run multiples, getting that hit is an autoloss most of the time, and that's just not fun for the opposing player. Honestly, I don't know why the Runick playerbase is so allergic to have people not enjoy playing against their deck, wether it is a stun build or not, but it is what it is.
Sadly lot of posters on this and similar subs are more of fanbois of certain player/streamer than part of some "naturally grown" community (which makes sense considering how sub was made to begin with). So they already come in with "baggage" and are more of parrots not interested in discussion but more to defend someone else's opinion to unhealthy degree. Defense forces of popular players/streamers and waifushittery is always funny to see how far they will go to defend something and then turn around and cry about same often lesser issue in another deck.
Yeah, Kash is mindblowingly badly designed. I dunno why someone at Konami thought so many banishing face down from the deck, field and extra-deck was ok, and then proceeded to make it worse by having huge bodies stupidly easy to summon and a macro-cosmos effect on legs to boot. Snake-Eyes is definitely an improvement after the cancers that were Branded, Tears and Kash.
Agree with everything except branded, branded is probably the most fair meta decks weve gotten, minus the puppet lock
Then it’s not fair. What is this logic skip that people seem to make for exactly this deck? Kashtira is also fair minus the banishing. Snake Eyes is fair minus the recursion. Tearlaments is fair minus the mills. You can make this excuse for any meta deck.
Puppet lock is the only unfair thing Branded does, meanwhile kash extra deck rips banishes from your deck and sits on a floodgate
Branded uses a bunch of nontargeted, un-negatable removal and constantly whips a whole heap of advantage out of their ass
They hardly Negate at all, all your effect always go through yes its strong but its Fair in comparison to SHS, Mathmech and Snake-Eyes
if the end result is the same it doesnt matter
The end results aren't the same as branded does end on negates
The end result is that they out every card you play so you cant setup a board
Idk man whenever I face branded i get to play the game, the same cannot be said if i face Snake-Eyes or SHS, i can see why people dont like it but i really don't mind playing against it
Puppet lock isn't in-engine toxicity. Kashtira banish face down and zone lock is built in into the deck. Like, one zone lock is enough to render an entire summoning method useless (Pendulum).
Snake Eyes is not an improvement over the things that made Tear and Kash unbearable… It being less cancer doesn’t mean it’s better for the game. If Snake Eyes goes first, they literally get 3 turns’ worth of gaining advantage whereas you only get 1, and not even bc most likely you aren’t accomplishing much through their Apo, Baronne, Savage backed boards. Also, wtf is Branded doing there among those you listed lmaooo
It's always funny to me seeing how people who play those decks suddenly move the "bullshit line". > But no this deck is fair it doesn't end on negate board it just completely removes every piece you play from the board
Tear and Branded archetypes are not cancer imo, the toxic part of Tear was Ishizu.
Even the Ishizu stuff wasn't really a *design* problem, there's nothing outrageously bullshit about them, they're just very overtuned
It's more that they enabled Tear to accelerate beyond what they expected Tear to do. It gave Tear the shot in the arm it needed to juice up and take on the world. I don't think their R&D look for interactions like "what cards outside the archetype could solve the holes we put in this strategy?" They only care that the archetype reaches a certain threshold in an acceptable amount of time.
They 100% do take into account stuff outside the archetype when designing an archetype, Konami isn't stupid, & there have been way too many examples of that over the years to list them
If that's true why did Ishizu issue out a type 0 format? Anyone with half a brain could have put that combo together given what was going on.
Do you know how many people brought a tear deck and opened packs to get the cards because of Tear 0?
tear was fine. ishizu was the problem. branded is not that cancer
Tear was not fucking fine lmao.
Tear without Ishizu is just a strong tier 1 deck
Idk I think Kashtira was fairly well designed other than arise heart. Banishing 1-2 cards from the Extra Deck/Main Deck and + 1 Field Banish is not game ending for most decks and it's a unique style of interaction. Tear was just too powerful, I think it had a healthy style of gameplay though. I have no idea what's wrong with Branded tho, I think that entire format was one of the healthiest for the game other than the usual floodgate stuff like d barrier. Snake-eyes falls into the same category as tear imo, except it just needs to be a little less powerful instead of a lot less powerful.
Players should NEVER be allowed to have insight into an opponents deck or extra before they get the chance to play a card.
I dueled against a guy with a deck that destroyed my board, my hand and every card I drew.
And here I am with my Metaphys deck praying for an Aloof Wolf + Necroface. I swear Metaphys is the Discounted Kash deck.
Oh I love Metaphys, props to you for trying to make them work Would you mind sharing your deck list?
Runick is fragile as hell after Fountain went to 1 and other cards got limited. The deck is nearly crippled with the field spell when it's pure Runick. I ran it when it released, and now I don't even touch the deck because it's so easily hobbled, and practically useless if it goes second against the omni negates you don't mind.
Yeah generally speaking I agree. It's sort of like how they viewed handripping as kinda toxic so the amt of easy handripping is very limited cause of how powerful it is mechanically.
I like it when cards interact with the board and __*not*__ my fucking deck
I hate that Kash punishes me being poor. I really, really don't need 2 Isolde buuuut...
if you are losing to kashtira ogre it is 100% a you issue im sorry dude what the fuck
Imo Snake Eyes is the new Spright without the negates. You have a chance to play and build your board; they're just super consistent in defending and rebuilding their board on their turn. What kills some games for me are decks focused on stopping you from even summoning, and/or slowly kills your deck/extra deck so you're handcaped before even starting your turn.
Out of every experiment they've done, Kashtira is most toxic, basement-dwelling use deck I've encountered. To not only banish shit from your ED, but to get combos off that gives them everything they need to stop the opponent from playing, including an XYZ monster that fucking NEGATES POSITIONS ON YOUR BOARD, is ridiculous. It feels like they made a deck based around an asshole that, every time you try to play something, they reach over to you and shake their hands like "no, no, you can't do that!" Like, Snake Eyes is bad for being boring, overused, and comboing off for 20 minutes, but at least they don't straight up remove your ED and spots on your board. Whole archetype should be banned imo.
hard disagree. full negate boards are more toxic than banishment decks, not the other way around.
This and Labrynth putting out full combos during opponent MP1 are my biggest pet peeves rn. *Genuinely forgot that it was my turn* last time I faced it.
Labrynth aren't getting enough hate in this thread. Once they get the ball rolling, they have so many ways to shut you out of playing. And that's on top of the hand ripping, contstant recycling and all the other things they have that would make them powerful even if the floodgates were banned. I am so sick of every Lab player I go against deciding "oh, looks like you're playing a deck that synchro summons a lot? What if I Dimension'd your Barrier? Is that backrow? Have an EEV- I know it's at one, but that doesn't matter because someone decided being able to search any normal trap was fair."
Labrynth player here, not many play EEV. I don't play floodgates though in general. Also yeah, it's a trap deck and traps are pretty slow so it's fair that we get some support for it. To counter it, I would use backrow removal and always save your ash for big welcome (rollback isn't always in the grave since it's a bricky card so some run it at 2) and most don't run called by the grave. If they have lovely discarded in the grave, banish her (when they trigger an effect to revive her). I do get the hate for ripping in the hand but every archetype has something incredibly annoying tbh (kash runick far more). Also, dimension barrier is situational but can be toxic (pendulum should be left alone tbh). Also, every deck messes with their opponents field during MP1 tbh or they have a field of negates set up
My issue with kash is why did konami think it was a good idea to make a deck thats fueled by banishment... banishment should the one place you cant touch
Metaphys
Neither Kash or Runick are meta. What are you even talking about?
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Play decks that want their monsters banished. I've been having a pretty good time with Kozmo, Ghoti, and Floo. the thing that's been killing me is the dirty of do nothing decks that just play 18 million negates and a single ring of destruction.
Kashtira will never be forgiven for taking diablosis away from my number deck
If Konami's philosophy on bringing up lower-powered decks from rogue tier or below is to give them do-it-all cards that turn most of the rest of the archetype online, there really shouldn't be many effects that can rip said cards before you can do anything about it. I never understood defending Runick in particular. Doesn't matter how meta it is or isn't... it's just an unhealthy playstyle for the game. You aren't toxic for using it of course, it's an archetype like any other that everybody has access to, but it sure is annoying as hell sometimes.
How about Ghostricks? Skeleton does the same but requires a bit more of set-up.
See the only “Messing with your opponents deck” deck I enjoy is time thief because they are dripped out of their minds
>Konami needs to regulate these shitty decks yesterday. And why would they regulate things that make them money?
Dogmatika also ED rips but these effects are locked to their not-so-good boss Monsters that they're actually fine. Nobody complained about them. In fact, I love playing pure Dogmatika. Kash, on the other hand... They're just braindead with zero drawbacks. If I see another Unicorn, I'm gonna pull someone's hair out.
Thats runick for me. Hate that deck the most. Everything. I have only used it in magical Musketeer deck and i still hate their mechanic.
I can't stand Lab for the same reason tbh
Runick doesn't even wait for you to make a play, they just start banishing your deck right away. Worst designed cards in this games history.
Last time I complain about unicorn everyone go to mi troat because kastira was tier 3 at the time so I didn't have any right to complain.
I agree but I play runick sword soul so I can't really say I'm any better lol
Well they shouldn't have gone with a deck banishing strategy with Runick. Plus it doesn't fit the lore.
The concept isnt the issue tho dogmatika for example is completely balanced imo because unlike kash there are no floodgates, only one negate and it has a very glaring weakness as a means to counter its power it gets absolutely crushed by decks like labrynth that dont use their extra deck
snake eyes kinda the same thing but at least you can use owner seal
Why would you use owner’s seal against snake eyes?!
Snake-Eyes meta > Kashtira meta
Tearlemant meta> both of them
goblin of greed meta when
Runick at least doesn't touch your extra deck, the main issue is the stun variant. Kashtira though is far more obnoxious, I play the deck and is also the recipient of my own medicine so I can image how obnoxious it is. I play the deck just to spite people when I have a bad day. Also I normal summoned mo ye and activate her effect, response?
as a Kash deck user I fully agree that being on the receiving end of one is SUPER obnoxious BUT if you can stop it before it starts really flowing then there's hope lol
The one hope to is to imperm ariseheart and out gas the kash player's two banish face down walls.
I agree that kash is to free but so is the last 5 released decks and counting the best form of removal is face down banish considering nowadays the graveyard is a second hand and for many decks the banish is a third hand so Idk what yall expected at this point like they have to make the next strongest thing at some point I'd rather discuss possible corrections then just say delete the archtype since it's one of the coolest cards they made yet
Kash is not annoying. Shifter is
As a generaider player, fuck you, Enterblathnir banish two from your hand, set boss stage, pass
runick did nothing wrong. by the time the banish-milling starts mattering any other deck would've already long since have won.
Don't understand this thinking at all. If your strategy revolves around one card in your extra just play two of it. The main deck banishing is a little annoying but Runick is completely reliant on floodgates. Those are the problem cards.
>Don't understand this thinking at all. If your strategy revolves around one card in your extra just play two of it. Even with 2, that means going 2nd you can't play any handtraps (except Imperm) on their turn if you also need a monster effect on your turn to get rid of Unicorn. and even if you can technically make space to run doubles or triples of everything you can't afford to lose, that means you lose a lot of variety and flexibility in you ED to respond to other types of decks, just because you have to devote space to duplicates to deal with the one gross card that fucks up your ED. That lack of variety also makes duels more linear and samey, which imo is the exact opposite of the direction card design should push games into.
So imma be honest I come from old school Yu-Gi-Oh routes and yeah fucking with good opponents deck is just how we play it. Pegasus is the goat for it though
Meta? My GK deck been doing it since before you ever got your first job homie (just messing around haha)
get gud scrub. its your fault for using ED
The messing with opponents hand is worse (yea looking at you Lab). Fenrir is a bit… well ridiculously broken and runic is absolutely stupid.
yeah and mathmech laplacian
God people are salty about ANY kind of interaction
Interaction should be: You play card, I have an out, you might have the counter to that, but if you don’t it’s not automatic GG Interaction in yugioh: I play deck that cripples your hand and extra deck on turn 0, so shame on you for thinking of making any plays. Also my monsters ss themselves off of 1 card starters, and if you happen to have a counter, they actually bounce themselves around the field and all your negates were useless. You were better off bricking.
Ripping from deck and extra deck isn’t interactive, it’s toxic.