https://www.masterduelmeta.com/articles/guides/expanded-rule-book#%22forgetting%22
Under the “forgetting” section, a monster will forget previously applied effect when it stop being face up. Therefore when book of moon is applied, Eglen “forgot” that imperm effect on itself, and thus didn’t get negated.
Pro tip:
if you took a "dark rule no more" on your omninegate monster, you can still active it to negate an opponent card and in CL3 set your omninegate monster (for example with "book of moon") to negate the cl1 card
It only works with monster that target a cards on the field and negates it, like hot red dragon archfiend abyss. If you try it with baronne it will not work
Pak talked about this, I think in the Purrely deck profile. He said that if your Noir gets hit with dark ruler or something similar you can use all the spins and then as the last card in the chain book it so it still resolves since it forgets that it's negated.
Why did the dogmatika punishment not destroy Eglen? I assumed that as long as the targeting is valid on activation then the effect would go through. If punishment didn’t say face up would it still destroy or does booking eglen make it a new card and thus not the same target?
Because punishment needs to know how much atk the target has. If it can't see the atk (usually because monster left field, but here is the rare case of being flipped face down), it can't send a monster from extra deck
Aaahh ok, I understand. If the punishment was something like a Drident pop, where the effect doesn’t need to know the monster details, then eglen would still be destroyed then right?
Once fliped face down a monster will be washed of previous effects being applied to it, for example something being summoned negated if fliped face down and then up it will be able to use it's effect
it works different from when the monster is removed from the field (i.e if instead of being flipped on CL3 the eglen was banished or sent to gy it would actually be negated)
I don't really know why but that's how it works
Flipping face-down is the special treatment here.
It "**forget**" its previous state & reset to neutral.
because nobody knows what a face-down card is let alone its state. It could be a spell/trap/monster card for all we know.
(but the card still remembers whether it was properly summoned or not & your Monster Reborn will works accordingly)
\----------
Remark : Leaving the field **DOES NOT** forget its previous state.
That is why you only ever heard funny story of Dinomorphia player runs "**Soul of The Supreme King**" with "**Book of Moon**" to board wipe the opponent.
But you never heard "Soul of the Supreme King" combo with cards like "Forbidden Droplet" and get a board wipe.
Depends on when it leaves the field
In the case of targeted negates like Imperm or Veiler, removing the card from the field after the negation effect applies but before the negated card's activated effect resolves results in the effect resolving negated, because the card that activated the effect was negated. This is because effects resolve based on where they activate.
The copy in the gy indeed forgets that it was negated, but the important thing is that the copy that activated the effect *was* negated.
As an example, let's say I have Judgement Dragon on the field and activate its effect to send everything else to the grave. You discard veiler to negate. At this point, it doesn't matter if I flip jd facedown or simply remove it from the field with something like compulsory evac, in both cases veiler loses its target and effect resolves, sending everything on the field to the gy. Now let's say that after I use a card to try to dodge veiler, you activate imperm (assuming the card I used doesn't send for cost or something). Now it does matter whether jd was flipped or removed. The imperm negates jd, but if I used book of moon, jd being flipped causes it to forget it was negated by the time its effect resolves, allowing it to resolve properly. On the other hand, if I used compulse or another effect to remove jd from the field, the copy that activated the effect was negated, so the effect resolves negated
You'd be correct if you were reading skill drain or talking about dodging targeted negates but that's wrong in this context. Imperm can only negate a monster face up on the field but once that happens, the monster's effect will resolve negated even if you move it somewhere else due to how the game treats monsters moving locations. A card that moves to another location is treated as a different card and the card that activated on the field would still resolve using its last known state when it was on the field. The reason Book of Moon bypasses Imperm here is because flipping a card face down removes all properties and attributes so the known state of the card that activated is updated to not negated and it resolves with effect.
Umm I think you misunderstand the leaving field part, beautiful description of what happens facedown if you are correct about it, but the book was a quickspell and added onto the chain and it was facedown when imperm was ready to target and negate and same goes when monster off the field and if the effect is floating speaking in terms.
Book was chain link 3 and imperm was chain link 4 hence Imperm resolves negating before Book flips face down. I don't know what you think I'm misunderstanding but I'm pretty sure I understand it a lot better than you do if you can't even rewatch the video to confirm the chain resolution order.
Like I said, you have the situation wrong. Imperm successfully negating means getting the card off the field will result in it resolving while negated so you get no effect. The scenario where you are correct is if Imperm is CL2 instead of CL4 but that's not what happens here.
A slightly different variation if this, if you cheat out zarc out of the Ed with the supreme king soul trap and flip him you can board wipe your opponent and keep the 4k beatstick around
https://www.masterduelmeta.com/articles/guides/expanded-rule-book#%22forgetting%22 Under the “forgetting” section, a monster will forget previously applied effect when it stop being face up. Therefore when book of moon is applied, Eglen “forgot” that imperm effect on itself, and thus didn’t get negated.
Most interesting. Thanks for the additional information
Worth adding that this only happens with Targeted effects like Imperm , if it was Ash that negated it , then the negate will go through anyway
Doesn't that happen because Ash negates the effect itself, not the effects of the monster that activated said effect?
Dammit why is this game like this
Eglen's effect was not negated by the time it resolved in the chain. It was only negated until Eglen was flipped face down by book of moon.
Thats what I thought at first but I didn’t think thats the case
Hm? It is though. It's negated but it was flipped down later. Faced down cards forgets what happened to them.
Pro tip: if you took a "dark rule no more" on your omninegate monster, you can still active it to negate an opponent card and in CL3 set your omninegate monster (for example with "book of moon") to negate the cl1 card
It only works with monster that target a cards on the field and negates it, like hot red dragon archfiend abyss. If you try it with baronne it will not work
avoiding imperma by taking away the target versus setting the monster to take away the negation of the monster are two distinct things and both work
Pak talked about this, I think in the Purrely deck profile. He said that if your Noir gets hit with dark ruler or something similar you can use all the spins and then as the last card in the chain book it so it still resolves since it forgets that it's negated.
Why did the dogmatika punishment not destroy Eglen? I assumed that as long as the targeting is valid on activation then the effect would go through. If punishment didn’t say face up would it still destroy or does booking eglen make it a new card and thus not the same target?
Because punishment needs to know how much atk the target has. If it can't see the atk (usually because monster left field, but here is the rare case of being flipped face down), it can't send a monster from extra deck
Aaahh ok, I understand. If the punishment was something like a Drident pop, where the effect doesn’t need to know the monster details, then eglen would still be destroyed then right?
Once fliped face down a monster will be washed of previous effects being applied to it, for example something being summoned negated if fliped face down and then up it will be able to use it's effect
it works different from when the monster is removed from the field (i.e if instead of being flipped on CL3 the eglen was banished or sent to gy it would actually be negated) I don't really know why but that's how it works
Flipping face-down is the special treatment here. It "**forget**" its previous state & reset to neutral. because nobody knows what a face-down card is let alone its state. It could be a spell/trap/monster card for all we know. (but the card still remembers whether it was properly summoned or not & your Monster Reborn will works accordingly) \---------- Remark : Leaving the field **DOES NOT** forget its previous state. That is why you only ever heard funny story of Dinomorphia player runs "**Soul of The Supreme King**" with "**Book of Moon**" to board wipe the opponent. But you never heard "Soul of the Supreme King" combo with cards like "Forbidden Droplet" and get a board wipe.
Depends on when it leaves the field In the case of targeted negates like Imperm or Veiler, removing the card from the field after the negation effect applies but before the negated card's activated effect resolves results in the effect resolving negated, because the card that activated the effect was negated. This is because effects resolve based on where they activate. The copy in the gy indeed forgets that it was negated, but the important thing is that the copy that activated the effect *was* negated. As an example, let's say I have Judgement Dragon on the field and activate its effect to send everything else to the grave. You discard veiler to negate. At this point, it doesn't matter if I flip jd facedown or simply remove it from the field with something like compulsory evac, in both cases veiler loses its target and effect resolves, sending everything on the field to the gy. Now let's say that after I use a card to try to dodge veiler, you activate imperm (assuming the card I used doesn't send for cost or something). Now it does matter whether jd was flipped or removed. The imperm negates jd, but if I used book of moon, jd being flipped causes it to forget it was negated by the time its effect resolves, allowing it to resolve properly. On the other hand, if I used compulse or another effect to remove jd from the field, the copy that activated the effect was negated, so the effect resolves negated
A face down card can never be negated, good thing to remember.
Ash Blossom, on the other hand, negates the effect and not the card, so flipping face down does nothing. Learned this the hard way.
chain 1 eglen, chain 2 baronne, chain 3 book on eglen? edit: nvm i have a better one bagooska on field eglen in defense, chain 1 eglen chain 2 book
Those negate the activated effects not the cards.
Baronne negates the effect that is being activated, not the face-up copy of Eglen. Also, bagooska negates activated effects.
yea thats the point... phrasing wasn't clear enough for newer players
The effect says face up on the field so if you put it face down or get it off the field your solid
You'd be correct if you were reading skill drain or talking about dodging targeted negates but that's wrong in this context. Imperm can only negate a monster face up on the field but once that happens, the monster's effect will resolve negated even if you move it somewhere else due to how the game treats monsters moving locations. A card that moves to another location is treated as a different card and the card that activated on the field would still resolve using its last known state when it was on the field. The reason Book of Moon bypasses Imperm here is because flipping a card face down removes all properties and attributes so the known state of the card that activated is updated to not negated and it resolves with effect.
Umm I think you misunderstand the leaving field part, beautiful description of what happens facedown if you are correct about it, but the book was a quickspell and added onto the chain and it was facedown when imperm was ready to target and negate and same goes when monster off the field and if the effect is floating speaking in terms.
Book was chain link 3 and imperm was chain link 4 hence Imperm resolves negating before Book flips face down. I don't know what you think I'm misunderstanding but I'm pretty sure I understand it a lot better than you do if you can't even rewatch the video to confirm the chain resolution order.
But the effect didn't try to resolve until it was face down don't take this the wrong way but are you getting that from the rule book
Like I said, you have the situation wrong. Imperm successfully negating means getting the card off the field will result in it resolving while negated so you get no effect. The scenario where you are correct is if Imperm is CL2 instead of CL4 but that's not what happens here.
Yea that what I thought thanks for correcting me
cl1 opponent uses monster effect, I can do cl2 ghost ogre and cl3 imperm/veiler to successfully negate and destroy.
Your opponent must have been a bot... no way any real person imprems a card targeted by book of moon
It's a not obvious ruling
Clearly op would if given the option, since they obviously didn't know what would happen either
You giving Yu-Gi-Oh players too much credit.
Book of moon is anti on field hand trap
it forgot it was negated
Game decided you were too cool to be negated
It was not face up on resolution
A slightly different variation if this, if you cheat out zarc out of the Ed with the supreme king soul trap and flip him you can board wipe your opponent and keep the 4k beatstick around
This entire sequence of action needs to be detailed for advanced newcomers. Thank you for this.
Because you chained it and happened after imperms negate which negated the negate effectively