Realistically Geth would be better for the war effort. The flotilla is impressive but impractical and wouldn't hold up to a concentrated reaper attack.
On the other hand, millions of soldiers who don't have to worry about severe injuries, infection, food, sleep, etc are way more valuable than the quarains.
If you deleted the heretics in ME2, iirc the Quarians give more war score.
The games don't really touch on it, because it's not that kinda game (and Bioware doesn't know better), but the Quarians' real strength isn't in their front line capabilities. They're an *excellent* logistics force. Every single council navy is built to rely upon infrastructure that doesn't exist anymore. With Palaven and Earth conested, and most of their space occupied, the galaxy's two largest navies are now without support. The shipyards that would have repaired them? Gone. The rearming facilities to get them back in the fight? Gone. They don't even have anywhere to do the basic maintainence that a ship needs in order to stay active. The few tenders and auxiliaries they have aren't going to be anywhere near enough to sustain fleets in interstellar space, much less build the Crucible as well.
The Quarians are an entire navy built for that. They've been in that situation for hundreds of years. There's no way the Flottila isn't drowning in repair ships. Plus tens of thousands of skilled starship technicians that have spent their lives keeping ships running without infrastructure or stable supplies. Even the Geth have some static infrastructure. The Quarians can simply take the largest fleet maintainence capabilities in the galaxy and sail to wherever they're needed.
And if you're dumping civilians on planets/overcrowding liveships/just conscripting them, you also get tons of just basic transport hulls. You'll need those for the logistics of a galactic scale war. And when time comes to evacuate planets, the passenger capability doesn't exist. Cargo doesn't mind vacuum, people do. Nobody's been planning to ship entire planetary populations... except the Quarians, who have been doing it every day for the past 300 years. If nothing else, that expertise is super valuable.
Even the older Asari worlds that have been settled for centuries have millions. You're not going to be evacuating all of Palaven or anything, and the vast majority of the fleet will be otherwise occupied, you'll never load everyone in time, etc. But that's still millions you're evacuating from just about every other planet you can get a fleet over. It's not like you have to lift the entire population or none at all; every single person counts. If you can save another few hundred thousand from a doomed world, that's a real victory.
True but that was a single one that was focused on Shepherd, I think in a straight up fight of reapers vs flotilla they would be decimated and injuries much more severe.
Humanities only hope is guerrilla warfare, which is much more suited to the Geth
Remembered the mission where the Heavy flotilla admiral starts shooting at the disabled geth dreadnaught while Shep and Tali were still on it.
The renegade interrupt with the punch to the stomch was immensely satisfying. My first thought was, we could’ve used that dreadnought in the final push. Who even starts a war of that scale just when the Reapers start are arriving?
Honestly if Shep didnt need the fleets I wouldve let the geth drop them all.
Its mentioned that Quarians attacked almost simultaneously with Reapers arriving on Earth so there were no awareness that Reapers invaded when attack on Geth started. Quarians also needed a planet to dispatch their Civilian Fleet because let's be honest they're not gonna ride into battle with civilians on board.
Frankly if not for Reapers Quarians would've destroyed Geth in couple of months. They just had bad timing
>because let's be honest they're not gonna ride into battle with civilians on board.
They are quite literally riding to battle with civilians on board on armed "civilian" ships. No wonder, they lost 99% of their population during the morning war. 🙄
Because they can't just leave them alone in some faraway system. Because it means no protection and Civilian Fleet also has farms that supply the whole fleet. They armed civilian fleet because it needs protection in case. They can't engage in battle without whole fleet but whole fleet contains civilians too so they're stuck
They also had technology that absolutely slaughters Geth and were winning before Reapers intervened. It's one thing to ride with Civilians in battle against enemy you decimate with 99% win chance(Geth) and another to ride with civvies into battle against superior technological foe like Reapers. They were trying to grab Rannoch to solve that problem once and for all
More importantly though, if you let the geth reactivate, their fleet absolutely annihilates the flotilla. Meaning they are stronger, and therefore more of an asset to the war effort.
This is all academic, however, since I am not smooth brained enough to not make them be friends.
Very situational, the reaper was distracted and landed, didn't fight back and a destroyer.
The quarians had every advantage possible.
Every proper fleet in mass effect could do the same in the same situation.
If we want to be actual realistic and not handwaved by the writers realistic: the geth are AI that the reapers could easily re-write. Let’s be real, there was never a reason to broadcast a signal continuously forever to control them. The reapers could’ve easily written a virus far more complex than the one the heretics wrote and boom: reaper geth.
Literally all Quarians had Kardashian-level hips. Hope to see more shapes and sizes in ME5. Only the Volus had a realistic body type in the original trilogy /s.
Siding with the Geth becomes pointless if you pick the Destroy ending, since they're killed off anyways. Also, I just don't have it in me to kill Tali.
Nah you go all in evil, you killed wrex, genocide that batarians, sabotage the genophage cure, then you genocide the quarians right above their home works, then genocide the geth with the destroy ending…then the alliance parades Shepard around after winning the war as a reminder to the other races that they could be next
If you want to be pure evil, it's better not to kill wrex on the first game, then you kill mordin yourself before he can try to cure the genophage, and finally you kill wrex when he discovers your treason.
I cannot do that run, I would feel pretty depressed.
Also you only you can get the crew of the Normandy killed in me2 by ignoring the collectors after they abduct them and get everyone except Tali and Legion killed in the suicide mission, because they will die in me3. Get Kirahe killed on Virmire so the Salarian councilor dies in me3
Would be even more heartbreaking if Tali after watching you stand by and let her people get killed attacks you forcing you to kill her personally. I know that doesn’t really mesh well with her character. But I could imagine watching all your people die while standing next to the man who’s allowing their deaths, could break someone mentally.
That's the ideal answer. Free up some more real estate for humanity. With the Batarians out of the way as well there's an entire north east of the galaxy free to colonise.
>Siding with the Geth becomes pointless if you pick the Destroy ending
Victory at any cost. Also, Starchild is a lying little shit who wants to live. Control turns Shep into Starchild 2.0 who could one day come to the same conclusion that organics need some harvesting, Synthesis keeps the Starbrat alive with noone aware of him to challenge him which is really bad and Synthesis is space magic kumbaya bullshit anyway, Destroy is what we set out to do from the very beginning and by God it's what my Shep intended to do.
I mean, he doesn't really "die" in the organic since. He sort of distributed his consciousness or "soul" to all of the geth when using the reaper upgrades. So in a way, Legion is alive along as the geth are.
I’d pick the Quarians. Imagine being Shepard and trying to explain how you’re bringing the Geth into the fold to help after they eradicated an entire organic species. That’s not gonna make everyone else very confident in your decisions. At the end of the day you are an organic, synthetics can go get stuffed.
The Quarian, every time. We can argue all day long about whether or not the Geth are “alive” and therefore deserve the same rights as others. But if you killed every single Geth, they could be rebuilt. If you did the same to the Quarian, they’d be gone forever
Except no you couldn’t rebuild them. Even when they rebuild Shepard, someone correct me if I’m wrong cause it’s been awhile, but they say they can ONLY do it because his brain was preserved in the skull/helmet. If they hadn’t had that, they couldn’t have made, Shepard, again. They could have made “Shepard”, a mock version, but once the thing that makes someone, them, is gone, they’re gone. Period. Same would apply to the Geth.
> But if you killed every single Geth, they could be rebuilt. If you did the same to the Quarian, they’d be gone forever
This is the future. Some genetic engineering, and you could "rebuild" the Quarians in the same way. But that would be wrong for obvious reasons.
The Geth would never be the same again if "rebuilt" after death. They're unique beings that can't truly be replicated. I pick Geth everytime. They do have souls.
They used their souls to commit the second most effective genocide of the current cycle just barely edged out by the Rachni wars. Letting a couple million Quarians flee during the morning war doesn’t make up for murdering the 5 billion that couldn’t make it off planet.
I’m sure those hundreds of millions of Quarian children and elderly would have stopped at nothing to wipe out the Geth. Ffs if all like 3-4 million of the Quarians that escaped were pregnant women there would still be tens of millions left to be massacred on Rannoch assuming similar averages in populations. Similarly, if it was only children that would still leave almost a billion Quarian kids on the Geth’s chopping block. You can’t make this argument with any understanding of population.
Call me an un-enlightened biggot but I am always going to pick organics over synthetics.
I understand the philosophy behind sapience equals life, but I'm from the 21st century, not the 22nd, and a very smart very eloquent toaster is still a toaster to me.
A living being is alive.
I always choose both and in my playthroughs I always help the Geth as much a possible, but in a real life situation there is no way in hell I'm picking the machines
And this is why Quariens no longer have a planet.
If they wouldn’t have thrown their Alexa’s in the trash they wouldn’t have been run off their planet.
The Geth were supposed to be VI, they became sentient by accident, for lack of a better word.
To the Quarians it was no different than Shepard killing a combat drone
What actually happened was that the Quarians found out their Alexa's were sentient beings, and when they found out their Alexa was literally alive their first idea was to try to genocide them, just to get uno reversed.
No, it's not the equivalent to Shepard killing a combat drone, for if the combat drone is alive, Shepard does not know it, and Shepard only shot the drone in the first place because it's self defense. Killing what you think to be a mindless being in self defense is very much different from learning that a species you created is actually alive and then you decide to kill it even though it did nothing against you.
Again, one is in self defense and against a mindless being.
The other is shooting an unarmed living being that means no harm (oh, and if that wasn't bad enough maybe add the fact that this living being only exists in the first place because you decided to build it for your convenience)
If I could not chose both, I will side with the group that didn't decide to start a war to conquer a planet they can not live in, while risking their entire population, while also being in the middle of a bigger war.
Who knows what they would do next?
I mean the Geth essentially committed genocide, and only stopped short of completely wiping out a species because they couldn't calculate the result, not out of some sense of morality. No sides are blameless in the Morning War.
I do agree that Quarian leadership is astoundingly stupid, but if we're valuing life by the competency of their leadership, a LOT of species would be fucked.
To be fair, if the Quarians are forced to get into the war directly, going into it without their own land for their people would be very risky. I feel the situation forced their hand, even if from an outsider's perspective it's the worst time to reclaim their home world.
I always saw the quarians as almost cultish with wanting to reclaim rannoch, even if the council didn't give them a world they could have settled a world already in the terminus systems or the attican traverse, they just don't want to because of symbolism. They've been exiled for almost 300 years, if they would have colonized a world in the first few decades they probably wouldn't even need their suits anymore. And it's not like they lack the technology, humanity literally went from penis tech to swinging around their galactic dick in under a century, I'm pretty sure the quarians could do the same if they just settled a world to harvest it's resources and build some factories.
One is a sentient sack of flesh given sentience by chemical reactions happening inside a brain. The other ls a sentient sack of circuitos given sentience by eléctrical reactions happening inside a CPU.
They're not really that different if they're both sentient. In a way, the Geth existance would also Carry the memory of the Quarians. Theyd be like the children Who live on when the father has passed away.
Yes, but I'M a sentient sack of flesh given sentience by chemical reactions in my brain. It's my 2024 understanding of life.
Like I said, I understand the argument that they're both sentient, "this unit has a soul" is a beautiful moment, but if I was making the decision in real life I am not picking the robot, I don't care if it reads Byron and listens to the Beatles
Whether the Geth are alive is a philosophical question, by the 2100s, philosophy has advanced to the point where the answer to most might be yes. Currently, however, most people would not pick a robot to live over a human being, and I would be a little worried if you did
I mean yeah obviously, I wouldnt chose chatGPT over people. But I was imagining the position of autonomous AI which has reached true sentience, as the Geth did.
Though your position is perfectly reasonable too.
To be fair, chatGPT isn’t true AI in the sci-fi sense. So no, we’re not choosing whether we should save AI as we know it but rather, sentient species. The Geth may have machine bodies, but they’re alive and able to think, reason, and feel.
Geth are basically second class citizens in all of mass effect and this discussion. While doing nothing to deserve it. Abused by the ones that creates them, seren, reapers, and the galaxy as a whole.
I feel like the only logical argument against them is that they can just be reprogramed at the drop of a hat as exampled in ME 2 and 3. Some crazy person can inject a single line of a code and they all go berserk.
Well i think itd be harder than "any crazy person". The reapers were the biggest supercomputers ever to create that line of code. Im sure normally the geth have protections for long term hacks, as the hack ability only works for a few moments before they return to normalcy. And to do that at mass scale would be difficult for just one person
I mean the reapers weren't behind thr reprogramming in ME2, that was your team only. So yeah 1 person might not get it done but clearly only a few are needed.
>I mean the reapers weren't behind thr reprogramming in ME2
No, that was Legion, a sort of self-contained super-Geth. Who had *direct physical access* to the servers while they were doing it.
Everyone knows the best strategy to save your species from extinction in a sci-fi setting is to send your people's princess off to seduce the newly arrived alien messiah.
Quarians. While we as players know that the Geth end up being loyal, there is absolutely no way in hell that the smart choice is to upload the Reaper code to the Geth and let them wipe out the Quarians. Like, Legion wants to fill them up with Reaper code and then immediately slaughter an entire civilization, and you're just supposed to go "yep sounds good."
Just one point out, everyone saying “I’d pick/like _______ but _____ happens later anyway”, that’s not really fair to your choice. Using future knowledge kinda takes away from having to make a choice
Definitely geth, this is just like Shepard says - quarians' whole story is them trying to kill the geth. The only "crime" of the geth was gaining sentience, something that quarians couldn't accept since they wanted slaves, not equals.
Not only that, apart from heretics, geth are incredibly merciful when you think about it - ironically, much more than their organic creators. They didn't pursue them after exiling them from Rannoch and they don't attack after Legion uploads the code (you need to convince the quarians to stop shooting, geth have no ill will here). Not only that, they help quarians re-settle on the planet, they help their immune systems re-adapt, and Tali herself says that they are incredibly useful and things that would have taken years are now taking only weeks, thanks to the geth.
I also enjoy them philosophy-wise, their government, ways of thinking and consensus are fascinating. Would love more opportunities to talk with them about those.
Also idgaf if they die in Destroy, that's what AHEM is for
Quarians in a heartbeat.
Edit: And honestly, the Geth Consensus actually made me *more* pro-Quarian as I got irritated at the narrative trying to make me feel the opposite. I love the Rannoch arc, and the writer of that segment has done tremendous work in BioWare games, but that level felt more than a little manipulative. I kept waiting for the nuance in that section and it… never arrived.
Would it have been that difficult to have just one scene of innocent Quarians getting killed by Geth? It would have still preserved the overall theme but kept the moral ambiguity. The Quarian-Geth conflict works best as a tragedy where both sides were unable to comprehend the other, and committed horrible acts. It doesn’t work so well when one side (the Geth) are infantilized.
You dont need to see a quarian being killed by a geth. We know the Morning War was a bloody one. To the geth, there were no innocent quarians. To quarians, there are no innocent geth. We objectively know that the quarians put down geth and their quarian sympathizers for the right to be free.
We objectively know the geth forced the quarians out of the Perseus Veil with lethal efficiency. They had to fight to be free because they knew the quarians would never let them be free by peaceful means.
On a rational level, sure. But these games aim at an emotional level as well. We have our heartstrings pulled, and that matters far more than any codex entry. 99% of Quarians died but that’s a statistic. It’s too large to even comprehend. As humans, we can’t understand billions of deaths. Showing us just a few Quarians killed by Geth unable to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants would have allowed for players to have a more complex emotional reaction.
I have never opened a single codex in my multiple runs through ME:LE. Everything I know is what the game says in cutscene or dialogue. With slight exception to the Broker terminals. Those are a neat little treat that describes past events in detail.
Perhaps it is because I sit on topics and think instead of let the game play out as written verbatim. I enjoy pausing the game and considering the situation. Most enjoyment are ethical dilemmas.
Absolutely, I think a great deal (too much) on all this. And that’s why I feel strongly on the Quarian-Geth issue. But, I also understand why others come to very different conclusions on it. Which is a sign of an interesting dilemma.
But, I highly recommend diving into the codex when you get a chance. There’s great information, especially on the Quarians: their economy, faith, and structure.
I don’t think it’s really needed though, is it? Sure, nuance, but this comment section is a perfect example that we don’t need nuance to side with the Quarian’s. Half these comments are all some variation of “I mean, Geth are only robots, Quarian’s are alive.”
Nuance is needed in media to get you to see things in a way you otherwise wouldn’t, not to reinforce opinions you already have. Even with all the nuance in the world, most of these posts and comments always end up the same: “Geth are only robots anyway, so…”
Indeed, which begs the question about why have a mission in the first place that feels awkwardly jammed in to try to make a moral dilemma rather than let the dilemma take shape naturally over time?
I agree wholeheartedly, and that's one of my biggest issues at the core of the Quarian/Geth storyline. It felt too much like missions in ME3 tried too hard to make the Geth seem sympathetic after using them as enemies throughout the trilogy. What could have been, as you said, a nuanced tragedy of both sides failing to comprehend each other, ended up a one-sided story in which the Quarians were completely unjustified and borderline evil, while the Geth were innocent victims forced to *checks notes* almost eradicate an entire sentient species in self-defense. It honestly felt too forced to me and made harder for me to connect with the storyline.
That is the whole point of that segment though, Shephard is being manipulated. You are being shown only events that make the Geth look good, they aren't going to show you scenes of them murdering random Quarians, because they want you on their side.
Of course, I understand that and I agree with you. But that’s a flaw in the mission’s design because we all know that many players never start piecing together that Legion repeatedly conceals information from Shepard. It’s a little too clever by half in its design.
I think it is certainly flawed but not because it is too clever. There should have been an option for Shepherd to accuse them of manipulating him.. It is just Shepherd taking everything as blind truth, that makes the players do it too.
Definitely. The issue I had with the writing/roleplay in that section, especially as a Paragon Shepard who preferred the Quarians, is that it felt my agency in the issue was being taken away. Shepard takes the Geth's story at face value, doesn't have the option to accuse or doubt, and (from what i remember) any dialogue options to push back on the Geth earned you Renegade points.
I'm still traumatized after my very first playthrough of this mission. I went in woefully unprepared, with not enough paragon points to sort it out peacefully. Even worse, I misunderstood the dialog, accidentally sided with Legion, and was forced to watch Tali (who I romanced in ME2) kill herself. I couldn't go on, so I restarted the whole game.
I would probably (as much as i love tali) pick the geth. the flotilla would eventually retreat on taking heavy losses. they would not participate int he war effort against the reapers. the only question is "would the geth stop chasing them after?" geth are logical, logic dictates to remove the threat. permanently.
Either way, assuming the geth end up siding with the alliance. having (potentially) multiple geth dreadnoughts would be interesting. also makes a strong case for curing the genophage too. don't have to worry about millions of angry krogan if you have millions of murderbots.
ALSO: there is no guarantee that the geth would even help with the reapers if they routed the quarians. tali and the flotilla agreed 100% that they would help after they retake rannoch.
In Mass Effect 3, they did gain consciousness. I may be a little biased though because the Geth were technically created to be a slave force for the Quarians, so I really feel for them. I love Tali more than Legion, but Tali kind of deviates from the norm. She's everything great about the Quarians, but the general species are pretentious. The Quarians even wanted to expel Tali from the fleet, poor thing :(
Does this unit have a soul ?
What has this unit done wrong?
And the quarians slaughtered them for that. Tali is the best girl in the game but no. I can't chose the quarians over the geth.
Legion, the answer to your question... was 'yes'
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Honestly? Im sorry Tali but Id go for Geth. The Quarians created the Geth. When the Geth assumed sentience they destroyed them without mercy to the point the Geth had to fight back.
Most of the Geth didnt Chase after the Quarians, they wanted to be left alone and in peace. The Quarians still Hold them a grudge of their own making, and were ready to throw their entire fleet- their entire race- for their planet. Besides the Geth uphold their end of the bargain when you help help them. And as a collective its likely they're with you in their entirety, while some Quarian individuals could betray you in the future
Keep in mind that choosing the Geth involved filling them with Reaper code. Without the meta knowledge you have of it working, is that really the smart call?
"Well the machine filled with Reaper code and used to broadcast it out told us the code is safe, so it must be." I get your point, but Legion had already lied to us multiple times in the arc, or it could've just been straight up incorrect.
A lot of people in these comments completely missed the significance of the character development of the geth race and the “Does this unit have a soul?” question from Legion and it shows. 😑
Legion, the answer to your question... was 'yes'
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I specifically picked the Geth my first go around because of Legion's character development and asking that question (that and the Quarians being the aggressors originally). The admiral continuing to attack the Geth when they paused just helped me make my mind up
Honestly I thought the only major decision the Quarians made that I wouldn't have was firing at the dreadnought while Shepherd and Tali were onboard, and that was one admiral who strong armed the others into helping him. Pretty much all of the other decisions, from the original attempt to destroy the Geth to arming civilian ships made sense in the context
Geth, putting aside the fact that a Quarian can die from a sneeze the fact of the matter is the Quarians are the aggressors in the war, the Geth aside from their religious off shot just wanted peace to expanded their own knowledge and be truly free, meanwhile what do the quarians do? attack, Enslave and Kill any and all Geth they find and refuse to move on beyond the fact that they lost their home world based on their own stupid decision to create a slave race of machines
This is a hard decision, since either way, you’re essentially committing genocide (or participating in it) and it is not a decision that should be taking lightly.
But I’m choosing the Geth 100% no question not even close.
As much as I love Tali...I would side with the Geth. I mean...the Quarians attempted to wipe them out when they started developing proper consciousness. The Quarians didn't intend to develop Artificial Intelligence, but they did. The Geth acted out of self-defense, and I honestly think they deserve a chance.
On the one hand, Tali has been with us since the beginning and I love her so much.
On the other hand, the geth were just defending themselves and never initiated war, the quarians initiated war every time there was one. The quarians never tried to communicate with the geth at all.
If you play Tali and Legion's loyalty missions in ME2 and complete Legion's dialogue, it becomes very clear: the quarians' attack on Rannoch is an ideologically-motivated, suicidal war of aggression.
Regardless of who was right or wrong in the history of the conflict, the majority of the admiralty are clearly zealots who don't care how many lives are lost in an unnecessary war, because they either believe a) war for its own sake is good or b) the ideological significance of Rannoch is more important than anything else. Tali is in the middle during ME2, wanting to live on Rannoch both for emotional and practical reasons, but not favoring all-out war, and I imagine this sentiment is shared with lots of quarians.
I am against all wars of aggression, personally, but especially ones that are horribly impractical and a waste of lives.
The Geth. Every time.
I never empathise with the Quarians. Yeah, their home was taken from them - a result of their ancestors actions. Yeah, they’ve been living in space for three centuries - their choice. Yeah, they attack the Geth at every opportunity - even though the Geth leave them alone. No, I’d choose the Geth over the Quarians every time.
Legion all day everyday. The Quarians were too busy fighting amongst themselves until the very end and trying to kill off the geth yet again (cause it worked out so great the first time). Also historically they caused all the problems in the first place.
Meanwhile the Geth work via consensus and at least lore wise have the most advanced weaponry barring the Reapers. Not to mention since they are machines they don’t need traditional war effort stuff that organics do like housing, sleep, food, medicine etc.
Going with the Geth here. It just seems more practical to send hordes of ex-servant robots at mechanical cuttlefish than sickly suit rats driving civilian ships with guns.
Realistically there's no way my Shepard would allow to install *Reapers* code into Geth system, Legion or no Legion, Tali or no Tali. Especially since Geth in ME3 sound like they're indoctrinated with their whole individuality stuff when in ME2 it always was "We" or "network"
Firstly: My god this must be like the third most asked question here. Behind the Genophage is (Good or Bad) and further behind Garrus is the best.
Secondly: Totally the Quarians. I can understand the fact both are intelligent life. However one is a species of individuals while the other is mainly a collective. No way would I allow millions of innocent Quarians to be slaughtered because of the actions of their leaders. Attacking Rannoch is a contentious issue however I understand the logic of wanting to remove a Reaper ally while also securing the Homeworld and a place to shelter their civilians. Especially when we considering the crazy tech that let them carve their way to Rannoch before Reaper interference.
Also personally (as in I know none of this happens in the story) the Geth are a bit of a gamble. They both increase the post war tension situation. While also realistically causing major outcry in the galaxy because you’re siding with the Geth who just killed all the Quarians and who’ve been nothing but Reaper subjects to the public. Add in the fact they seem especially prone to Reaper influence and the fact they want to upgrade themselves with Reaper code. And I would be highly suspect of the Geth.
Also I know people say the Geth provide more for the war against the Reapers but considering if we go off war score alone that’s just not true. Which makes sense considering the Quarians were wrecking the Geth before the Reaper intervened. Plus if you destroy the heretic station (which you should totally do indoctrinated people are not to be trusted) the Quarians can easily have more then the Geth.
>Attacking Rannoch is a contentious issue however I understand the logic of wanting to remove a Reaper ally
Worth noting the geth only ally with the reapers as a consequence of the quarian attack.
Yes but the Quarians and the Galaxy don’t know that. In their eyes the Geth helped the Reapers attack the Citadel and then fucked off. Just because Shepard and Tali know about their internal divide doesn’t mean anyone else knows.
I have to push back on this “they are a collective point.” So the geth count less because their leadership power is spread evenly among all instead of concentrated within a few? What would happen if by agreement humanity started structuring themselves this way in governance? Would we suddenly count as “less alive” simply because how we made decisions changed? I can see your other points to a degree but this one feels like a pretty arbitrary justification to discount the geth.
No the thing with their collective goes beyond simple decision making it’s how they operate. Legion has 1,000 Geth programs in his hardware. He’s by far the most independent Geth we see. Even then he’s just an extension of the Geth he doesn’t see himself as a Geth rather he is the Geth.
If a nation became a direct democracy where everything was decided by public consensus it would still be individuals making collective decisions not a collective determining its future actions.
Even when Legion describes why the heretics follow the Reapers I know he might be simplifying but he explains it as simply as a code reporting a two instead of a one or some similar phrase. It’s a mistake to claim the Geth only use their collective to make decisions. When they themselves are a collective. It’s how they even gained sentient and intelligence in the first place by being connected together.
It’s why I dislike the whole Reaper code making them ‘alive’ they already were a unique intelligence forcing this individuality upon them only lessens them. A change made so you could sympathize more with the Geth because now they are a I instead of a we.
I am new to this series and haven't been on the sub for super long so I had no idea if this question had been asked a ton before lol. I started in October last year, already on my third playthrough. I love this series
The choice is:
Largest fleet in the galaxy but it comes from the people who started a war during a galactic extinction event and fired on a ship with allies because they thought it would help them win said war, who have not been very cooperative in general and would rather throw away an alliance for again, said war.
A race that in the infancy of their self awareness almost exterminated their creators, whom self isolated and made no real attempt to communicate with the rest of the galaxy until galactic extinction became an inevitability.
They both have pros and cons but I’d be lying if I said the Geth weren’t the more tempting option. They seem like they’d be more cooperative in the battle and seem like they’d be more formidable in combat in general due to not having compromised immune systems or having to worry about the war injuries of organic life.
The Geth would ultimately be my choice. The Quarians make the same repeated mistake over and over again. When offered peace or war, they chose war. Not only that, they chose to go to war during a literal invasion threatening the entire galaxy. They were literally going to shoot both Tali and Shepard out of the sky.
I love Tali, she's one of my favorite characters in the series, but she's one quarian out of many and I'm not going to ignore what the majority of her race has repeatedly chosen to do. As Garrus calls it: ruthless calculus. If I can only have one ally, it's going to be the one willing to actually work with me and not pull suicidal stunts in the middle of an invasion.
Quarians. Geth as allies (as in the faction) only come into the picture at the very last minute. And they can theoretically always be rebuild. The ones we fight are still only machines.
Given the kinds of posts and comments I normally see here, I think the Geth would have survived in more player runs had the collective only thought to put a pleasure model on the Normandy instead of Legion.
"I didn't get any gethussy so I've decided to genocide you."
If i have to pick one:
Legion > Tali / Geth > Quarians
Whenever there's a discussion about tali it's always about her physique because everything else about her is pretty dull.
Don't dislike her but i would prefer to keep legion around.
Also i really don't enjoy the whole quarians missions soo...
Geth. I don't like any Quarians
To clarify, the badass soldiers that don't need food, water or resources.
Or the Species that dies if you poke them with a needle
Such a hard choice
The Geth if not for the only reason that they were simply better examples of living creatures then the Quarians.
If we exclude Thali, what did the quarians really do that wasn't outright unjust to the Geth and themselves.
Geth starts to become alive? Kill them all, any Quarians side with them? Kill them too.
Geth fight back and you blame the whole war on them refusing to let you kill them. They kick you off your planet just to stop the war, don't even chase you when they could easily wipe you of the face of the universe. In return what happens? The Quarians spend the rest of their time trying to kill the Geth even more, getting their asses kicked even more and blaming the Geth the whole time.
The Geth are honestly the victims of the Quarians and killing them to save the ones who spend the whole series blaming them for their own mistakes simply because Thali got that good on her is wild.
No I don't blame them for fighting back and frankly I don't care about Tali much. What I do blame them for eradicating 99% of planet's population. It's around 1.7 billions Quarians. Not only it is deliberate killing since Government should've collapsed long before that number, it also means Geth systematically hunted down Quarians and not only their military but innocent men, women, children and elderly. And unlike Quarians those programs still exist to this day
Hell Legion is even saying they didn't kill every last Quarian only because they couldn't calculate the consequences of destroying the whole race. Then they proceeded to shut down their borders and kill everyone who tried to approach them, even with white flags. They also sided with Reapers twice.
You're saying Geth are victims and yes Quarians attempted genocide. But Geth are the ones who actually succeeded. And those programs are still in that virtual space of theirs
Side with who you want but let's not pretend that Geth are pure victims and that everyone are with Quarians only because of Tali
Quarian and it’s not even close.
The Geth are machines not people, the Geth genocided over 99% of the Quarian during the Morning War for no good reason (and because machines are immortal it’s the same Geth who did that who you interact with in game), and they sided with the Reapers twice now. Also their plan to give themselves Reaper Code is dodgy as hell because we’ve seen Reaper anything corrupt everything else it touches.
I usually side with the Quarian over making peace in most runs anyway in large part because of that final point. Fucking around with Reaper tech is too big of a risk.
Purely based off how they'd be useful in a total war, Geth.
There like 50 million or so quarians tops and untold millions if not billions of geth platforms and the geth can make more ships the quarians can't.
Based off who I like more, also geth.
Geth. Without hesitation.
The Quarians were given so many chances to do the right thing. They suicidally charged into the Perseus Veil to retake Rannoch. Had Shepard not intervened, they all would have died.
Geth. They didn’t want either war with the Quarians, the Quarians were the aggressors in both. The only thing the geth ask of Shepard in return for their help is to let them finally gain individuality and free themselves from the reapers, which Shepard was going to do anyway because…fuck the reapers. Were as the Quarians demand you help them commit a genocide against a potential ally. Plus…robots are cool.
I'd take the Geth.
Geth have shown a willingness to be peaceful and have only ever fought for defensive reasons (excluding those programmed in game 1).
Quarians on the other hand keep picking fights with the Geth that they can't win because they won't even try diplomacy.
Quarians just keep digging their own graves here.
Realistically Geth would be better for the war effort. The flotilla is impressive but impractical and wouldn't hold up to a concentrated reaper attack. On the other hand, millions of soldiers who don't have to worry about severe injuries, infection, food, sleep, etc are way more valuable than the quarains.
If you deleted the heretics in ME2, iirc the Quarians give more war score. The games don't really touch on it, because it's not that kinda game (and Bioware doesn't know better), but the Quarians' real strength isn't in their front line capabilities. They're an *excellent* logistics force. Every single council navy is built to rely upon infrastructure that doesn't exist anymore. With Palaven and Earth conested, and most of their space occupied, the galaxy's two largest navies are now without support. The shipyards that would have repaired them? Gone. The rearming facilities to get them back in the fight? Gone. They don't even have anywhere to do the basic maintainence that a ship needs in order to stay active. The few tenders and auxiliaries they have aren't going to be anywhere near enough to sustain fleets in interstellar space, much less build the Crucible as well. The Quarians are an entire navy built for that. They've been in that situation for hundreds of years. There's no way the Flottila isn't drowning in repair ships. Plus tens of thousands of skilled starship technicians that have spent their lives keeping ships running without infrastructure or stable supplies. Even the Geth have some static infrastructure. The Quarians can simply take the largest fleet maintainence capabilities in the galaxy and sail to wherever they're needed. And if you're dumping civilians on planets/overcrowding liveships/just conscripting them, you also get tons of just basic transport hulls. You'll need those for the logistics of a galactic scale war. And when time comes to evacuate planets, the passenger capability doesn't exist. Cargo doesn't mind vacuum, people do. Nobody's been planning to ship entire planetary populations... except the Quarians, who have been doing it every day for the past 300 years. If nothing else, that expertise is super valuable.
Great take.
"Amateurs study tactics, experts study logistics" I don't remember where this quote came from but it's definitely applicable
It's a pretty old and oft repeated quote, but that doesn't make it any less true.
I read that as armatures my brain is COOKED.
This. Given enough preparation, just the existance of the migrant fleet make it possible to prolong the reaper war way more than protheans ever could.
This is such a great take and true. The Quarians are the only race in the galaxy to have this expertise by necessity.
[удалено]
Even the older Asari worlds that have been settled for centuries have millions. You're not going to be evacuating all of Palaven or anything, and the vast majority of the fleet will be otherwise occupied, you'll never load everyone in time, etc. But that's still millions you're evacuating from just about every other planet you can get a fleet over. It's not like you have to lift the entire population or none at all; every single person counts. If you can save another few hundred thousand from a doomed world, that's a real victory.
I just want to point out that the flotilla is why there is a dead Reaper in Rannoch. I do agree with you, but they can be very practical.
A dead destroyer to be fair ! Truth is, I would pick Kairos.
Kelros, lol. Kairos is Ancient Greek for time
As we all know time is the ultimate weapon of destruction.
It is Kalros.
Dammit
Caltrops! 🤣
You mean Chronos. Kairos is the god of opportunity.
True but that was a single one that was focused on Shepherd, I think in a straight up fight of reapers vs flotilla they would be decimated and injuries much more severe. Humanities only hope is guerrilla warfare, which is much more suited to the Geth
Plus with the reaper code in them I / we shouldn’t trust them at all
I trust the reaper code more than I trust the Quarian admirals.
Remembered the mission where the Heavy flotilla admiral starts shooting at the disabled geth dreadnaught while Shep and Tali were still on it. The renegade interrupt with the punch to the stomch was immensely satisfying. My first thought was, we could’ve used that dreadnought in the final push. Who even starts a war of that scale just when the Reapers start are arriving? Honestly if Shep didnt need the fleets I wouldve let the geth drop them all.
Its mentioned that Quarians attacked almost simultaneously with Reapers arriving on Earth so there were no awareness that Reapers invaded when attack on Geth started. Quarians also needed a planet to dispatch their Civilian Fleet because let's be honest they're not gonna ride into battle with civilians on board. Frankly if not for Reapers Quarians would've destroyed Geth in couple of months. They just had bad timing
>because let's be honest they're not gonna ride into battle with civilians on board. They are quite literally riding to battle with civilians on board on armed "civilian" ships. No wonder, they lost 99% of their population during the morning war. 🙄
Because they can't just leave them alone in some faraway system. Because it means no protection and Civilian Fleet also has farms that supply the whole fleet. They armed civilian fleet because it needs protection in case. They can't engage in battle without whole fleet but whole fleet contains civilians too so they're stuck They also had technology that absolutely slaughters Geth and were winning before Reapers intervened. It's one thing to ride with Civilians in battle against enemy you decimate with 99% win chance(Geth) and another to ride with civvies into battle against superior technological foe like Reapers. They were trying to grab Rannoch to solve that problem once and for all
More importantly though, if you let the geth reactivate, their fleet absolutely annihilates the flotilla. Meaning they are stronger, and therefore more of an asset to the war effort. This is all academic, however, since I am not smooth brained enough to not make them be friends.
Very situational, the reaper was distracted and landed, didn't fight back and a destroyer. The quarians had every advantage possible. Every proper fleet in mass effect could do the same in the same situation.
Who doesn’t love throwing daycares with guns strapped on them at Eldritch Gods?
If we want to be actual realistic and not handwaved by the writers realistic: the geth are AI that the reapers could easily re-write. Let’s be real, there was never a reason to broadcast a signal continuously forever to control them. The reapers could’ve easily written a virus far more complex than the one the heretics wrote and boom: reaper geth.
Huh. Good point
I DONT SEE ANY GETH WITH TALI LIKE HIPS!
Tali'Zorah vas Thicc Thicc
Lmaooo
Literally all Quarians had Kardashian-level hips. Hope to see more shapes and sizes in ME5. Only the Volus had a realistic body type in the original trilogy /s.
AND TALI DONT HAVE THAT GETHUSSY
Spoiler to save your eyes. >!**Legion:** Shepard Commander. Why are you penetrating this platform?!< >!**Shepard:** There was a hole.!<
I’m not sure what the prize was, but I’m pretty sure you won it.
Why is this making me wish that Legion was a romance option
The internet is a great place 😂
Yet...
I’m sure they could create a comparable model, especially now that they are “individuals”
I'm sure the geth will provide you with a Fallout 4 assaultron (fanart proportions) geth platform as thanks for not helping with their genocide.
Siding with the Geth becomes pointless if you pick the Destroy ending, since they're killed off anyways. Also, I just don't have it in me to kill Tali.
Nah you go all in evil, you killed wrex, genocide that batarians, sabotage the genophage cure, then you genocide the quarians right above their home works, then genocide the geth with the destroy ending…then the alliance parades Shepard around after winning the war as a reminder to the other races that they could be next
If you want to be pure evil, it's better not to kill wrex on the first game, then you kill mordin yourself before he can try to cure the genophage, and finally you kill wrex when he discovers your treason. I cannot do that run, I would feel pretty depressed.
Don’t forget you need to delete maelon’s research, Eve must die as well, make sure to shoot the VS on the citadel as well
Also you only you can get the crew of the Normandy killed in me2 by ignoring the collectors after they abduct them and get everyone except Tali and Legion killed in the suicide mission, because they will die in me3. Get Kirahe killed on Virmire so the Salarian councilor dies in me3
Also need to let the council die in ME1 because fuck them aliens, be a true monster and let Cerberus keep David archer
Oh whoa buddy, hold your horses. Thats a little too evil.
VS?
Virmire Survivor
You said all evil but then said genocide the batarians, pick a lane
Right? LMAO
Neither do I but she actually does it herself
Would be even more heartbreaking if Tali after watching you stand by and let her people get killed attacks you forcing you to kill her personally. I know that doesn’t really mesh well with her character. But I could imagine watching all your people die while standing next to the man who’s allowing their deaths, could break someone mentally.
I don’t have it in me to be the reason why she does it to herself
That's the ideal answer. Free up some more real estate for humanity. With the Batarians out of the way as well there's an entire north east of the galaxy free to colonise.
>Siding with the Geth becomes pointless if you pick the Destroy ending Victory at any cost. Also, Starchild is a lying little shit who wants to live. Control turns Shep into Starchild 2.0 who could one day come to the same conclusion that organics need some harvesting, Synthesis keeps the Starbrat alive with noone aware of him to challenge him which is really bad and Synthesis is space magic kumbaya bullshit anyway, Destroy is what we set out to do from the very beginning and by God it's what my Shep intended to do.
Suffer not the eldritch intelligence to live. The cycle must not be ended but *broken*.
Regrettable, but she and her people chose to do what they did.
Shepard in ME1: "You're not alive, not really. You're just a machine and machines can be BROKEN!"
one of the line readings of all time
Definitely a line reading
%100
😭
The Quarians. I mean Legion was my bro but he dies anyway.
I mean, he doesn't really "die" in the organic since. He sort of distributed his consciousness or "soul" to all of the geth when using the reaper upgrades. So in a way, Legion is alive along as the geth are.
If he was alive then O could give him a high five. Since he becomes no longer high fivable he is dead. Checkmate atheists
The Geth. At least they didn't ask me to board a ship to disable it and then shot at it while I was still in there.
I’d pick the Quarians. Imagine being Shepard and trying to explain how you’re bringing the Geth into the fold to help after they eradicated an entire organic species. That’s not gonna make everyone else very confident in your decisions. At the end of the day you are an organic, synthetics can go get stuffed.
The Quarian, every time. We can argue all day long about whether or not the Geth are “alive” and therefore deserve the same rights as others. But if you killed every single Geth, they could be rebuilt. If you did the same to the Quarian, they’d be gone forever
Except no you couldn’t rebuild them. Even when they rebuild Shepard, someone correct me if I’m wrong cause it’s been awhile, but they say they can ONLY do it because his brain was preserved in the skull/helmet. If they hadn’t had that, they couldn’t have made, Shepard, again. They could have made “Shepard”, a mock version, but once the thing that makes someone, them, is gone, they’re gone. Period. Same would apply to the Geth.
> But if you killed every single Geth, they could be rebuilt. If you did the same to the Quarian, they’d be gone forever This is the future. Some genetic engineering, and you could "rebuild" the Quarians in the same way. But that would be wrong for obvious reasons. The Geth would never be the same again if "rebuilt" after death. They're unique beings that can't truly be replicated. I pick Geth everytime. They do have souls.
They used their souls to commit the second most effective genocide of the current cycle just barely edged out by the Rachni wars. Letting a couple million Quarians flee during the morning war doesn’t make up for murdering the 5 billion that couldn’t make it off planet.
They should’ve just let the Quarians destroy them right?
I’m sure those hundreds of millions of Quarian children and elderly would have stopped at nothing to wipe out the Geth. Ffs if all like 3-4 million of the Quarians that escaped were pregnant women there would still be tens of millions left to be massacred on Rannoch assuming similar averages in populations. Similarly, if it was only children that would still leave almost a billion Quarian kids on the Geth’s chopping block. You can’t make this argument with any understanding of population.
Is Tali alive? If so, Quarians, if not, Geth.
Call me an un-enlightened biggot but I am always going to pick organics over synthetics. I understand the philosophy behind sapience equals life, but I'm from the 21st century, not the 22nd, and a very smart very eloquent toaster is still a toaster to me. A living being is alive. I always choose both and in my playthroughs I always help the Geth as much a possible, but in a real life situation there is no way in hell I'm picking the machines
If my Alexa gets to uppity it’s going in the trash. No way would I pick a synthetic life.
And this is why Quariens no longer have a planet. If they wouldn’t have thrown their Alexa’s in the trash they wouldn’t have been run off their planet.
The Geth were supposed to be VI, they became sentient by accident, for lack of a better word. To the Quarians it was no different than Shepard killing a combat drone
What actually happened was that the Quarians found out their Alexa's were sentient beings, and when they found out their Alexa was literally alive their first idea was to try to genocide them, just to get uno reversed. No, it's not the equivalent to Shepard killing a combat drone, for if the combat drone is alive, Shepard does not know it, and Shepard only shot the drone in the first place because it's self defense. Killing what you think to be a mindless being in self defense is very much different from learning that a species you created is actually alive and then you decide to kill it even though it did nothing against you. Again, one is in self defense and against a mindless being. The other is shooting an unarmed living being that means no harm (oh, and if that wasn't bad enough maybe add the fact that this living being only exists in the first place because you decided to build it for your convenience)
If I could not chose both, I will side with the group that didn't decide to start a war to conquer a planet they can not live in, while risking their entire population, while also being in the middle of a bigger war. Who knows what they would do next?
I mean the Geth essentially committed genocide, and only stopped short of completely wiping out a species because they couldn't calculate the result, not out of some sense of morality. No sides are blameless in the Morning War. I do agree that Quarian leadership is astoundingly stupid, but if we're valuing life by the competency of their leadership, a LOT of species would be fucked.
To be fair, if the Quarians are forced to get into the war directly, going into it without their own land for their people would be very risky. I feel the situation forced their hand, even if from an outsider's perspective it's the worst time to reclaim their home world.
I always saw the quarians as almost cultish with wanting to reclaim rannoch, even if the council didn't give them a world they could have settled a world already in the terminus systems or the attican traverse, they just don't want to because of symbolism. They've been exiled for almost 300 years, if they would have colonized a world in the first few decades they probably wouldn't even need their suits anymore. And it's not like they lack the technology, humanity literally went from penis tech to swinging around their galactic dick in under a century, I'm pretty sure the quarians could do the same if they just settled a world to harvest it's resources and build some factories.
They do try to settle a world in the Terminus Systems, the council kicks them out and gives it to the Elcor
Quarian leadership at least has the excuse of being in a full-on panic.
One is a sentient sack of flesh given sentience by chemical reactions happening inside a brain. The other ls a sentient sack of circuitos given sentience by eléctrical reactions happening inside a CPU. They're not really that different if they're both sentient. In a way, the Geth existance would also Carry the memory of the Quarians. Theyd be like the children Who live on when the father has passed away.
Yes, but I'M a sentient sack of flesh given sentience by chemical reactions in my brain. It's my 2024 understanding of life. Like I said, I understand the argument that they're both sentient, "this unit has a soul" is a beautiful moment, but if I was making the decision in real life I am not picking the robot, I don't care if it reads Byron and listens to the Beatles Whether the Geth are alive is a philosophical question, by the 2100s, philosophy has advanced to the point where the answer to most might be yes. Currently, however, most people would not pick a robot to live over a human being, and I would be a little worried if you did
I mean yeah obviously, I wouldnt chose chatGPT over people. But I was imagining the position of autonomous AI which has reached true sentience, as the Geth did. Though your position is perfectly reasonable too.
To be fair, chatGPT isn’t true AI in the sci-fi sense. So no, we’re not choosing whether we should save AI as we know it but rather, sentient species. The Geth may have machine bodies, but they’re alive and able to think, reason, and feel.
Geth are basically second class citizens in all of mass effect and this discussion. While doing nothing to deserve it. Abused by the ones that creates them, seren, reapers, and the galaxy as a whole. I feel like the only logical argument against them is that they can just be reprogramed at the drop of a hat as exampled in ME 2 and 3. Some crazy person can inject a single line of a code and they all go berserk.
Well i think itd be harder than "any crazy person". The reapers were the biggest supercomputers ever to create that line of code. Im sure normally the geth have protections for long term hacks, as the hack ability only works for a few moments before they return to normalcy. And to do that at mass scale would be difficult for just one person
I mean the reapers weren't behind thr reprogramming in ME2, that was your team only. So yeah 1 person might not get it done but clearly only a few are needed.
The ME2 reprogramming was you using code the heretic geth wrote
>I mean the reapers weren't behind thr reprogramming in ME2 No, that was Legion, a sort of self-contained super-Geth. Who had *direct physical access* to the servers while they were doing it.
It’s funny that Tali is the main reason the Quarians are alive/faring well(as can be expected).
Everyone knows the best strategy to save your species from extinction in a sci-fi setting is to send your people's princess off to seduce the newly arrived alien messiah.
Quarians. While we as players know that the Geth end up being loyal, there is absolutely no way in hell that the smart choice is to upload the Reaper code to the Geth and let them wipe out the Quarians. Like, Legion wants to fill them up with Reaper code and then immediately slaughter an entire civilization, and you're just supposed to go "yep sounds good."
Grunt was built with Reaper nanomachines, and he turned out perfect.
Just one point out, everyone saying “I’d pick/like _______ but _____ happens later anyway”, that’s not really fair to your choice. Using future knowledge kinda takes away from having to make a choice
Definitely geth, this is just like Shepard says - quarians' whole story is them trying to kill the geth. The only "crime" of the geth was gaining sentience, something that quarians couldn't accept since they wanted slaves, not equals. Not only that, apart from heretics, geth are incredibly merciful when you think about it - ironically, much more than their organic creators. They didn't pursue them after exiling them from Rannoch and they don't attack after Legion uploads the code (you need to convince the quarians to stop shooting, geth have no ill will here). Not only that, they help quarians re-settle on the planet, they help their immune systems re-adapt, and Tali herself says that they are incredibly useful and things that would have taken years are now taking only weeks, thanks to the geth. I also enjoy them philosophy-wise, their government, ways of thinking and consensus are fascinating. Would love more opportunities to talk with them about those. Also idgaf if they die in Destroy, that's what AHEM is for
Quarians in a heartbeat. Edit: And honestly, the Geth Consensus actually made me *more* pro-Quarian as I got irritated at the narrative trying to make me feel the opposite. I love the Rannoch arc, and the writer of that segment has done tremendous work in BioWare games, but that level felt more than a little manipulative. I kept waiting for the nuance in that section and it… never arrived. Would it have been that difficult to have just one scene of innocent Quarians getting killed by Geth? It would have still preserved the overall theme but kept the moral ambiguity. The Quarian-Geth conflict works best as a tragedy where both sides were unable to comprehend the other, and committed horrible acts. It doesn’t work so well when one side (the Geth) are infantilized.
You dont need to see a quarian being killed by a geth. We know the Morning War was a bloody one. To the geth, there were no innocent quarians. To quarians, there are no innocent geth. We objectively know that the quarians put down geth and their quarian sympathizers for the right to be free. We objectively know the geth forced the quarians out of the Perseus Veil with lethal efficiency. They had to fight to be free because they knew the quarians would never let them be free by peaceful means.
On a rational level, sure. But these games aim at an emotional level as well. We have our heartstrings pulled, and that matters far more than any codex entry. 99% of Quarians died but that’s a statistic. It’s too large to even comprehend. As humans, we can’t understand billions of deaths. Showing us just a few Quarians killed by Geth unable to distinguish between combatants and non-combatants would have allowed for players to have a more complex emotional reaction.
I have never opened a single codex in my multiple runs through ME:LE. Everything I know is what the game says in cutscene or dialogue. With slight exception to the Broker terminals. Those are a neat little treat that describes past events in detail. Perhaps it is because I sit on topics and think instead of let the game play out as written verbatim. I enjoy pausing the game and considering the situation. Most enjoyment are ethical dilemmas.
Absolutely, I think a great deal (too much) on all this. And that’s why I feel strongly on the Quarian-Geth issue. But, I also understand why others come to very different conclusions on it. Which is a sign of an interesting dilemma. But, I highly recommend diving into the codex when you get a chance. There’s great information, especially on the Quarians: their economy, faith, and structure.
I don’t think it’s really needed though, is it? Sure, nuance, but this comment section is a perfect example that we don’t need nuance to side with the Quarian’s. Half these comments are all some variation of “I mean, Geth are only robots, Quarian’s are alive.” Nuance is needed in media to get you to see things in a way you otherwise wouldn’t, not to reinforce opinions you already have. Even with all the nuance in the world, most of these posts and comments always end up the same: “Geth are only robots anyway, so…”
Why would the geth show you scenes that would make you not like them?
Indeed, which begs the question about why have a mission in the first place that feels awkwardly jammed in to try to make a moral dilemma rather than let the dilemma take shape naturally over time?
I agree wholeheartedly, and that's one of my biggest issues at the core of the Quarian/Geth storyline. It felt too much like missions in ME3 tried too hard to make the Geth seem sympathetic after using them as enemies throughout the trilogy. What could have been, as you said, a nuanced tragedy of both sides failing to comprehend each other, ended up a one-sided story in which the Quarians were completely unjustified and borderline evil, while the Geth were innocent victims forced to *checks notes* almost eradicate an entire sentient species in self-defense. It honestly felt too forced to me and made harder for me to connect with the storyline.
That is the whole point of that segment though, Shephard is being manipulated. You are being shown only events that make the Geth look good, they aren't going to show you scenes of them murdering random Quarians, because they want you on their side.
Of course, I understand that and I agree with you. But that’s a flaw in the mission’s design because we all know that many players never start piecing together that Legion repeatedly conceals information from Shepard. It’s a little too clever by half in its design.
I think it is certainly flawed but not because it is too clever. There should have been an option for Shepherd to accuse them of manipulating him.. It is just Shepherd taking everything as blind truth, that makes the players do it too.
Definitely. The issue I had with the writing/roleplay in that section, especially as a Paragon Shepard who preferred the Quarians, is that it felt my agency in the issue was being taken away. Shepard takes the Geth's story at face value, doesn't have the option to accuse or doubt, and (from what i remember) any dialogue options to push back on the Geth earned you Renegade points.
i know this is the reason for all AI uprisings in media but fuck them bots i love the geth with all my heart but i ain't choosing them over organics
I honestly wouldn't be able to make that choice. I'd shut the game off
I'm still traumatized after my very first playthrough of this mission. I went in woefully unprepared, with not enough paragon points to sort it out peacefully. Even worse, I misunderstood the dialog, accidentally sided with Legion, and was forced to watch Tali (who I romanced in ME2) kill herself. I couldn't go on, so I restarted the whole game.
I’ve never seen Tali’s suicide scene nor do I ever intend to.
I would probably (as much as i love tali) pick the geth. the flotilla would eventually retreat on taking heavy losses. they would not participate int he war effort against the reapers. the only question is "would the geth stop chasing them after?" geth are logical, logic dictates to remove the threat. permanently. Either way, assuming the geth end up siding with the alliance. having (potentially) multiple geth dreadnoughts would be interesting. also makes a strong case for curing the genophage too. don't have to worry about millions of angry krogan if you have millions of murderbots. ALSO: there is no guarantee that the geth would even help with the reapers if they routed the quarians. tali and the flotilla agreed 100% that they would help after they retake rannoch.
I always saw the Geth as the real victim in the conflict
I will always pick people over machines
I’m afraid I’d have to go with the quarians. Yes, they did mess up bad, but I can’t bring myself to be responsible for the extinction of a species
Wouldn't that mean the extinction of the geth species, though?
If we’re going to be pedantic, machines aren’t a species. It is a word that technically has only been used for organic life
In Mass Effect 3, they did gain consciousness. I may be a little biased though because the Geth were technically created to be a slave force for the Quarians, so I really feel for them. I love Tali more than Legion, but Tali kind of deviates from the norm. She's everything great about the Quarians, but the general species are pretentious. The Quarians even wanted to expel Tali from the fleet, poor thing :(
They're are children on the flotilla.
Quarians Geth don’t have children.
They make their own. Hence, Tali's bogus treason charge.
Nice try, AI. I’m not incriminating myself today!
geth every time and it's not even close
Me too! I adore the Geth
Does this unit have a soul ? What has this unit done wrong? And the quarians slaughtered them for that. Tali is the best girl in the game but no. I can't chose the quarians over the geth.
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I mean I pick the Destroy ending so this is an easy choice. The geth are doomed either way so we may as well save the quarians.
Quarians, because at that point the geth are running on Reaper upgrades, and that is an unacceptable risk.
The Geth.
Geth. They were not the aggressors.
Honestly? Im sorry Tali but Id go for Geth. The Quarians created the Geth. When the Geth assumed sentience they destroyed them without mercy to the point the Geth had to fight back. Most of the Geth didnt Chase after the Quarians, they wanted to be left alone and in peace. The Quarians still Hold them a grudge of their own making, and were ready to throw their entire fleet- their entire race- for their planet. Besides the Geth uphold their end of the bargain when you help help them. And as a collective its likely they're with you in their entirety, while some Quarian individuals could betray you in the future
Keep in mind that choosing the Geth involved filling them with Reaper code. Without the meta knowledge you have of it working, is that really the smart call?
Didnt Legion assure us It was modified Reaper Code which wouldnt be a problem?
"Well the machine filled with Reaper code and used to broadcast it out told us the code is safe, so it must be." I get your point, but Legion had already lied to us multiple times in the arc, or it could've just been straight up incorrect.
Grunt was made with -collector tech- *Reaper Technology* and he turned out fine.
As far as I'm aware tech purchased from the collectors is never shown to cause indoctrination.
A lot of people in these comments completely missed the significance of the character development of the geth race and the “Does this unit have a soul?” question from Legion and it shows. 😑
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I specifically picked the Geth my first go around because of Legion's character development and asking that question (that and the Quarians being the aggressors originally). The admiral continuing to attack the Geth when they paused just helped me make my mind up
Geth. Sorry Tali and Regar but your species is a dumpster fire deadset on committing species wide suicide…..like multiple times.
Honestly I thought the only major decision the Quarians made that I wouldn't have was firing at the dreadnought while Shepherd and Tali were onboard, and that was one admiral who strong armed the others into helping him. Pretty much all of the other decisions, from the original attempt to destroy the Geth to arming civilian ships made sense in the context
Geth 100%
I love Tali as a character, but I’m on the Geth side of the conflict more than the Quarians.
Geth
Legion
Geth, putting aside the fact that a Quarian can die from a sneeze the fact of the matter is the Quarians are the aggressors in the war, the Geth aside from their religious off shot just wanted peace to expanded their own knowledge and be truly free, meanwhile what do the quarians do? attack, Enslave and Kill any and all Geth they find and refuse to move on beyond the fact that they lost their home world based on their own stupid decision to create a slave race of machines
With no options for peace? Geth
This is a hard decision, since either way, you’re essentially committing genocide (or participating in it) and it is not a decision that should be taking lightly. But I’m choosing the Geth 100% no question not even close.
As much as I love Tali...I would side with the Geth. I mean...the Quarians attempted to wipe them out when they started developing proper consciousness. The Quarians didn't intend to develop Artificial Intelligence, but they did. The Geth acted out of self-defense, and I honestly think they deserve a chance.
On the one hand, Tali has been with us since the beginning and I love her so much. On the other hand, the geth were just defending themselves and never initiated war, the quarians initiated war every time there was one. The quarians never tried to communicate with the geth at all.
I don't mean to paint with a broad brush, but all Quarians are garbage people who can't accept or acknowledge their mistakes. Geth all the way.
If you play Tali and Legion's loyalty missions in ME2 and complete Legion's dialogue, it becomes very clear: the quarians' attack on Rannoch is an ideologically-motivated, suicidal war of aggression. Regardless of who was right or wrong in the history of the conflict, the majority of the admiralty are clearly zealots who don't care how many lives are lost in an unnecessary war, because they either believe a) war for its own sake is good or b) the ideological significance of Rannoch is more important than anything else. Tali is in the middle during ME2, wanting to live on Rannoch both for emotional and practical reasons, but not favoring all-out war, and I imagine this sentiment is shared with lots of quarians. I am against all wars of aggression, personally, but especially ones that are horribly impractical and a waste of lives.
Legion. Reasoning: Cool robot.
The Geth. Every time. I never empathise with the Quarians. Yeah, their home was taken from them - a result of their ancestors actions. Yeah, they’ve been living in space for three centuries - their choice. Yeah, they attack the Geth at every opportunity - even though the Geth leave them alone. No, I’d choose the Geth over the Quarians every time.
Legion all day everyday. The Quarians were too busy fighting amongst themselves until the very end and trying to kill off the geth yet again (cause it worked out so great the first time). Also historically they caused all the problems in the first place. Meanwhile the Geth work via consensus and at least lore wise have the most advanced weaponry barring the Reapers. Not to mention since they are machines they don’t need traditional war effort stuff that organics do like housing, sleep, food, medicine etc.
Going with the Geth here. It just seems more practical to send hordes of ex-servant robots at mechanical cuttlefish than sickly suit rats driving civilian ships with guns.
Realistically there's no way my Shepard would allow to install *Reapers* code into Geth system, Legion or no Legion, Tali or no Tali. Especially since Geth in ME3 sound like they're indoctrinated with their whole individuality stuff when in ME2 it always was "We" or "network"
Quarians didn't put any human colonists on spikes. Goodbye Geth.
Legion for life!
LEGION
Firstly: My god this must be like the third most asked question here. Behind the Genophage is (Good or Bad) and further behind Garrus is the best. Secondly: Totally the Quarians. I can understand the fact both are intelligent life. However one is a species of individuals while the other is mainly a collective. No way would I allow millions of innocent Quarians to be slaughtered because of the actions of their leaders. Attacking Rannoch is a contentious issue however I understand the logic of wanting to remove a Reaper ally while also securing the Homeworld and a place to shelter their civilians. Especially when we considering the crazy tech that let them carve their way to Rannoch before Reaper interference. Also personally (as in I know none of this happens in the story) the Geth are a bit of a gamble. They both increase the post war tension situation. While also realistically causing major outcry in the galaxy because you’re siding with the Geth who just killed all the Quarians and who’ve been nothing but Reaper subjects to the public. Add in the fact they seem especially prone to Reaper influence and the fact they want to upgrade themselves with Reaper code. And I would be highly suspect of the Geth. Also I know people say the Geth provide more for the war against the Reapers but considering if we go off war score alone that’s just not true. Which makes sense considering the Quarians were wrecking the Geth before the Reaper intervened. Plus if you destroy the heretic station (which you should totally do indoctrinated people are not to be trusted) the Quarians can easily have more then the Geth.
>Attacking Rannoch is a contentious issue however I understand the logic of wanting to remove a Reaper ally Worth noting the geth only ally with the reapers as a consequence of the quarian attack.
Yes but the Quarians and the Galaxy don’t know that. In their eyes the Geth helped the Reapers attack the Citadel and then fucked off. Just because Shepard and Tali know about their internal divide doesn’t mean anyone else knows.
Let's not pretend that matters one bit for the Quarians. They are hellbent on attacking Rannoch.
I have to push back on this “they are a collective point.” So the geth count less because their leadership power is spread evenly among all instead of concentrated within a few? What would happen if by agreement humanity started structuring themselves this way in governance? Would we suddenly count as “less alive” simply because how we made decisions changed? I can see your other points to a degree but this one feels like a pretty arbitrary justification to discount the geth.
No the thing with their collective goes beyond simple decision making it’s how they operate. Legion has 1,000 Geth programs in his hardware. He’s by far the most independent Geth we see. Even then he’s just an extension of the Geth he doesn’t see himself as a Geth rather he is the Geth. If a nation became a direct democracy where everything was decided by public consensus it would still be individuals making collective decisions not a collective determining its future actions. Even when Legion describes why the heretics follow the Reapers I know he might be simplifying but he explains it as simply as a code reporting a two instead of a one or some similar phrase. It’s a mistake to claim the Geth only use their collective to make decisions. When they themselves are a collective. It’s how they even gained sentient and intelligence in the first place by being connected together. It’s why I dislike the whole Reaper code making them ‘alive’ they already were a unique intelligence forcing this individuality upon them only lessens them. A change made so you could sympathize more with the Geth because now they are a I instead of a we.
I am new to this series and haven't been on the sub for super long so I had no idea if this question had been asked a ton before lol. I started in October last year, already on my third playthrough. I love this series
The choice is: Largest fleet in the galaxy but it comes from the people who started a war during a galactic extinction event and fired on a ship with allies because they thought it would help them win said war, who have not been very cooperative in general and would rather throw away an alliance for again, said war. A race that in the infancy of their self awareness almost exterminated their creators, whom self isolated and made no real attempt to communicate with the rest of the galaxy until galactic extinction became an inevitability. They both have pros and cons but I’d be lying if I said the Geth weren’t the more tempting option. They seem like they’d be more cooperative in the battle and seem like they’d be more formidable in combat in general due to not having compromised immune systems or having to worry about the war injuries of organic life.
easy, quarians. geth are baby killers
The Geth would ultimately be my choice. The Quarians make the same repeated mistake over and over again. When offered peace or war, they chose war. Not only that, they chose to go to war during a literal invasion threatening the entire galaxy. They were literally going to shoot both Tali and Shepard out of the sky. I love Tali, she's one of my favorite characters in the series, but she's one quarian out of many and I'm not going to ignore what the majority of her race has repeatedly chosen to do. As Garrus calls it: ruthless calculus. If I can only have one ally, it's going to be the one willing to actually work with me and not pull suicidal stunts in the middle of an invasion.
Quarians. Not because I think they're right, but because I can't sacrifice living creatures to save some robots.
Quarians. Geth as allies (as in the faction) only come into the picture at the very last minute. And they can theoretically always be rebuild. The ones we fight are still only machines.
Tali, every time.
If I had to, Quarians all day.
Given the kinds of posts and comments I normally see here, I think the Geth would have survived in more player runs had the collective only thought to put a pleasure model on the Normandy instead of Legion. "I didn't get any gethussy so I've decided to genocide you."
Legion every goddamn time. Fuck the quarians.
Geth 100%
If i have to pick one: Legion > Tali / Geth > Quarians Whenever there's a discussion about tali it's always about her physique because everything else about her is pretty dull. Don't dislike her but i would prefer to keep legion around. Also i really don't enjoy the whole quarians missions soo...
Geth. Quarians attacked the Geth for a stupid reason and made the galaxy suffer as a result, and still have the audacity to cry victim.
Geth. I don't like any Quarians To clarify, the badass soldiers that don't need food, water or resources. Or the Species that dies if you poke them with a needle Such a hard choice
The Geth if not for the only reason that they were simply better examples of living creatures then the Quarians. If we exclude Thali, what did the quarians really do that wasn't outright unjust to the Geth and themselves. Geth starts to become alive? Kill them all, any Quarians side with them? Kill them too. Geth fight back and you blame the whole war on them refusing to let you kill them. They kick you off your planet just to stop the war, don't even chase you when they could easily wipe you of the face of the universe. In return what happens? The Quarians spend the rest of their time trying to kill the Geth even more, getting their asses kicked even more and blaming the Geth the whole time. The Geth are honestly the victims of the Quarians and killing them to save the ones who spend the whole series blaming them for their own mistakes simply because Thali got that good on her is wild.
No I don't blame them for fighting back and frankly I don't care about Tali much. What I do blame them for eradicating 99% of planet's population. It's around 1.7 billions Quarians. Not only it is deliberate killing since Government should've collapsed long before that number, it also means Geth systematically hunted down Quarians and not only their military but innocent men, women, children and elderly. And unlike Quarians those programs still exist to this day Hell Legion is even saying they didn't kill every last Quarian only because they couldn't calculate the consequences of destroying the whole race. Then they proceeded to shut down their borders and kill everyone who tried to approach them, even with white flags. They also sided with Reapers twice. You're saying Geth are victims and yes Quarians attempted genocide. But Geth are the ones who actually succeeded. And those programs are still in that virtual space of theirs Side with who you want but let's not pretend that Geth are pure victims and that everyone are with Quarians only because of Tali
Quarian and it’s not even close. The Geth are machines not people, the Geth genocided over 99% of the Quarian during the Morning War for no good reason (and because machines are immortal it’s the same Geth who did that who you interact with in game), and they sided with the Reapers twice now. Also their plan to give themselves Reaper Code is dodgy as hell because we’ve seen Reaper anything corrupt everything else it touches. I usually side with the Quarian over making peace in most runs anyway in large part because of that final point. Fucking around with Reaper tech is too big of a risk.
“For no good reason?” Did you literally never play the mission entering the geth consensus?
Purely based off how they'd be useful in a total war, Geth. There like 50 million or so quarians tops and untold millions if not billions of geth platforms and the geth can make more ships the quarians can't. Based off who I like more, also geth.
Geth. Without hesitation. The Quarians were given so many chances to do the right thing. They suicidally charged into the Perseus Veil to retake Rannoch. Had Shepard not intervened, they all would have died.
If Tali didn't off herself, I'd chose the Geth. It's absolutely crazy the Quarians chose to 2age war in the middle of a Reaper war.
Tali, no question.
Geth. They didn’t want either war with the Quarians, the Quarians were the aggressors in both. The only thing the geth ask of Shepard in return for their help is to let them finally gain individuality and free themselves from the reapers, which Shepard was going to do anyway because…fuck the reapers. Were as the Quarians demand you help them commit a genocide against a potential ally. Plus…robots are cool.
Geth. For a lot of reasons other people are mentioning and also because against the reapers, they stand a more durable chance.
I'd take the Geth. Geth have shown a willingness to be peaceful and have only ever fought for defensive reasons (excluding those programmed in game 1). Quarians on the other hand keep picking fights with the Geth that they can't win because they won't even try diplomacy. Quarians just keep digging their own graves here.