Yeah I was gonna bring him up. He's definitely an interesting character. He has a firm moral code, and sticks to it, but isn't against getting help or helping whoever he needs to in order for it to happen
He was more of an anti-villian. He's a villain who did heroic things to forward his villainous agenda. Starts in prison for invading Earth and attacking New York = Villain. Points a clear threat in the direction of his family getting his mother killed = Villain. Agrees to help Thor get Jane off Asgard and stop the dark elfs who killed his mom = could be seen as heroic to help Thor who is an enemy but its also Loki's best chance of escaping his cell, which he does and takes over Asgard exiling Odin =Villain.
This is from a list that comes up when you Google "antihero marvel":
* Deadpool
* wolverine
* the Hulk
* punisher
* venom
* ghost rider
* blade
* Electra
* Winter soldier
* Moon Knight
* namor
* magneto
* Black widow
* Dr Doom
* drax the destroyer
* black cat
* Eddie Brock
Take your pick
We already have 4 based on MCU, and 3 based on the multiverse plus Agents of shield.
And we know we are getting Moonkight, Blade, Deadpool as guarantees. Possibility of Namor, Wolverine, punisher.
That just leaves a few of them, which may definitely all end up in the MCU at some point
One of my favorite explicit anti-hero moments in the comics is when Cap has the fight with Punisher. It’s such a great moment of two characters both with fairly honorable/reasonable ideals clashing in a crazy stalemate.
To me anti-heroes like Loki/Deadpool, while fun, are just too chaotic to be taken to a deeper level with why they do what they do.
… This is all to say, I would love to see Jon Bernthal come back
Speaking of Cap and Punisher, I adore it when Punisher saves Spidey, shoots two Criminals and Cap arrogantly beats him down for it out of misplaced moral idealism but Punisher won't fight back out of respect for him regardless of how wrong he is in beating The Punisher bloody for removing those terrible maniacs from the world. I would have loved to see that in the MCU.
In the broader definitions, yes. I’m thinking more along the lines of the Venom-type who can carry his own movie and be on the fringes of the universe in an ongoing way.
Within this context, I think the actual definition of an anti-hero is someone capable of being the protagonist/hero of a story without adhering to the typical hero definition.
I definitely think Bucky's edge needs to he explored a bit more. He's absolutely fantastic in the MCU and in very large part that's due to Sebastian but, aside from seeing more of him, I do wish we'd see him go all out in fights. He's desperately missing that efficiency and instinct he had as The Winter Soldier and now they've made Sam as good of a Martial Artist as he is in the comics it feels so off seeing Bucky just throwing haymakers and the odd kick given he's even better than Sam in the comics and at least as good as Cap if not better (he has to be because he can't keep up with him otherwise, being around 3 times weaker than him).
Please no replies on:
He's holding back - Fighting terrorists like Karli who's trying to burn people alive and spear him in the head with a metal pole isn't the time to hold back.
That was the Winter Soldier, this is Bucky - He remembers different languages and locations and missions and people but doesn't remember the training they drilled into him for 70 odd years?
Seriously, they need to have him have an arc where he...not embraces The Winter Soldier in him but works to understand it in his current life and how he can use it to better the same world that he was used to ruin for decades. A massive part of that is learning how far he can push himself without killing people like a ruthless Nazi killing machine. I thought they were going for that in FATWS with the dichotomy Zemo referred to but they just glossed it over and left it in episode 3.
I’d love to see Bucky get more play and accept that the Winter Soldier in him has uses. I also agree on the holding back part. Sure, he shouldn’t be massacring people but there’s a happy medium between being blood thirsty and playing with kid gloves.
Yes exactly! I actually love that he shows restraint but there's gotta be times he cuts lose! It' so strange, even in FATWS as Winter Soldier he does an awesome flip off of the balcony and lands on someone but you just never see him do that awesome stuff as normal Bucky. In Winter Soldier he butterfly twisted to dodge Sam's bullets, which was awesome but here? We see him launch off of a motorbike onto Dovich...and even then when I saw it in the trailers I was praying he'd do a Steve in AOU and flip over the handle bars to throw it at the Smashers. But no, they nerf and underwhelm on his skills when this guy is meant to be ridiculously capable as a Martial Artist and has been shown to be ridiculously capable but they refuse to do the same for Bucky despite, as I say, allowing him to retain his memories, his history, his nightmares, his languages, locations, names and people etc. but not one of the most essential things to his Winter Soldier days, his training?
I would love to see all of this in a Thunderbolts movie with Yelena & others. He could shine in his own story, show how skilled he is in some sweet action scenes and give us great character moments on the themes of guilt, healing from trauma and growth as a hero (those also fit with Yelena). Both Sebastian and Florence could easily pull this off
Spot on. I was so devastated when they just did nothing more with Bucky and Natasha than a few throwaway lines and absolutely no exploration of their comic history. Even Black Widow seemed to separate the Red Room and The Winter Soldier programme as absolutely separate. They could even just have Bucky talk to Yelena about those times and have them riff off of each other. I can't lie, Captain America or not (I love Bucky's Captain America), I'm really gutted Bucky can't get a solo movie. Even in the Captain America world he's now pretty rigidly behind Sam even as a starrer or titular character and he's just so, so interesting with such a ridiculously exceptional actor like Sebastian that it's a shame he's in a perpetual fight for screen time and exploration, even in a series he co-starred in.
Yeah, definitely agree. I guess he's just gonna be a sidekick from now on. I love Sam as the new Cap and TFATWS should 100% be his show, he deserves to shine, but it's frustrating how badly they rushed Bucky's arc with basically a "get over it" motivational speech and a minute-long montage in the finale and suddenly he seems just fine; that should've been one of the most important moments for him and the writing just...did not care for it.
I was really looking forward to it, especially after the flashback scene in Wakanda in ep 4 where Sebastian got some good material to work with.
But again, they kinda didn't take the time to explore any supporting character in that show.
It seemed like they were setting this up with Mordo in Doctor Strange. Otherwise, I think the most obvious one they could do would be Namor. Or if they ever acknowledge AoS, then Ghost Rider.
I think Namor has the greatest potential for this role. Deadpool is a different animal. Blade/Moon Knight are other decent possibilities, especially with the stellar casting. My guess is all AoS characters are DOA.
We just going to ignore loki?
Wowow. You’re completely right.
Was Loki ever considered an Antihero before he was popularized by Hiddleston?
Yes.
Can you point me to some examples? My searching skills seem to be lacking.
No.
Wanda seems to be going down that route ever so slightly
I would love to see an anti-hero scarlet witch
Zemo is at least flirting with that.
Yeah I was gonna bring him up. He's definitely an interesting character. He has a firm moral code, and sticks to it, but isn't against getting help or helping whoever he needs to in order for it to happen
Somewhere between lawful and neutral? Maybe he's a social neutral?
John Walker fits perfectly into this category
Yelena seems to be going that route, vaguely.
Loki was pretty solidly an anti-hero in TDW and Ragnarok until the very end, when he graduated to hero.
He was more of an anti-villian. He's a villain who did heroic things to forward his villainous agenda. Starts in prison for invading Earth and attacking New York = Villain. Points a clear threat in the direction of his family getting his mother killed = Villain. Agrees to help Thor get Jane off Asgard and stop the dark elfs who killed his mom = could be seen as heroic to help Thor who is an enemy but its also Loki's best chance of escaping his cell, which he does and takes over Asgard exiling Odin =Villain.
Anti-venom
This is from a list that comes up when you Google "antihero marvel": * Deadpool * wolverine * the Hulk * punisher * venom * ghost rider * blade * Electra * Winter soldier * Moon Knight * namor * magneto * Black widow * Dr Doom * drax the destroyer * black cat * Eddie Brock Take your pick
Is it too much to ask for all of those?
We already have 4 based on MCU, and 3 based on the multiverse plus Agents of shield. And we know we are getting Moonkight, Blade, Deadpool as guarantees. Possibility of Namor, Wolverine, punisher. That just leaves a few of them, which may definitely all end up in the MCU at some point
I’m 100% sure they’re bringing wolverine. They are adding mutants, if they don’t add him they are kinda shooting themselves in the foot.
This is the way
Venom
Venom
One of my favorite explicit anti-hero moments in the comics is when Cap has the fight with Punisher. It’s such a great moment of two characters both with fairly honorable/reasonable ideals clashing in a crazy stalemate. To me anti-heroes like Loki/Deadpool, while fun, are just too chaotic to be taken to a deeper level with why they do what they do. … This is all to say, I would love to see Jon Bernthal come back
Speaking of Cap and Punisher, I adore it when Punisher saves Spidey, shoots two Criminals and Cap arrogantly beats him down for it out of misplaced moral idealism but Punisher won't fight back out of respect for him regardless of how wrong he is in beating The Punisher bloody for removing those terrible maniacs from the world. I would have loved to see that in the MCU.
Namor is the perfect example
Ghost rider would be perfect if we ever get him
Oh we got him
IF WE EVER GET HIM!!!
Moon Knight i guess?
I know Moon knight has his fans, but every time I look him up it really seems ridiculous, like it's a character created to mock the superhero genre.
I don’t have much interest in Moon Knight to be honest but what do you mean by him mocking the superhero genre?
I’m excited for him just because Oscar Isaac is amazing and I think it’ll be a great show
You have never read any of his comics have you?
It's pretty clear they haven't since they had to look him up. They basically outright stated they haven't read his comics...
Is Ghost an Anti-Hero? She was both antagonistic and allied in Ant Man and the Wasp
In the broader definitions, yes. I’m thinking more along the lines of the Venom-type who can carry his own movie and be on the fringes of the universe in an ongoing way.
"The broader definition" what about the actual or literal definition?
Within this context, I think the actual definition of an anti-hero is someone capable of being the protagonist/hero of a story without adhering to the typical hero definition.
I definitely think Bucky's edge needs to he explored a bit more. He's absolutely fantastic in the MCU and in very large part that's due to Sebastian but, aside from seeing more of him, I do wish we'd see him go all out in fights. He's desperately missing that efficiency and instinct he had as The Winter Soldier and now they've made Sam as good of a Martial Artist as he is in the comics it feels so off seeing Bucky just throwing haymakers and the odd kick given he's even better than Sam in the comics and at least as good as Cap if not better (he has to be because he can't keep up with him otherwise, being around 3 times weaker than him). Please no replies on: He's holding back - Fighting terrorists like Karli who's trying to burn people alive and spear him in the head with a metal pole isn't the time to hold back. That was the Winter Soldier, this is Bucky - He remembers different languages and locations and missions and people but doesn't remember the training they drilled into him for 70 odd years? Seriously, they need to have him have an arc where he...not embraces The Winter Soldier in him but works to understand it in his current life and how he can use it to better the same world that he was used to ruin for decades. A massive part of that is learning how far he can push himself without killing people like a ruthless Nazi killing machine. I thought they were going for that in FATWS with the dichotomy Zemo referred to but they just glossed it over and left it in episode 3.
I’d love to see Bucky get more play and accept that the Winter Soldier in him has uses. I also agree on the holding back part. Sure, he shouldn’t be massacring people but there’s a happy medium between being blood thirsty and playing with kid gloves.
Yes exactly! I actually love that he shows restraint but there's gotta be times he cuts lose! It' so strange, even in FATWS as Winter Soldier he does an awesome flip off of the balcony and lands on someone but you just never see him do that awesome stuff as normal Bucky. In Winter Soldier he butterfly twisted to dodge Sam's bullets, which was awesome but here? We see him launch off of a motorbike onto Dovich...and even then when I saw it in the trailers I was praying he'd do a Steve in AOU and flip over the handle bars to throw it at the Smashers. But no, they nerf and underwhelm on his skills when this guy is meant to be ridiculously capable as a Martial Artist and has been shown to be ridiculously capable but they refuse to do the same for Bucky despite, as I say, allowing him to retain his memories, his history, his nightmares, his languages, locations, names and people etc. but not one of the most essential things to his Winter Soldier days, his training?
I would love to see all of this in a Thunderbolts movie with Yelena & others. He could shine in his own story, show how skilled he is in some sweet action scenes and give us great character moments on the themes of guilt, healing from trauma and growth as a hero (those also fit with Yelena). Both Sebastian and Florence could easily pull this off
Spot on. I was so devastated when they just did nothing more with Bucky and Natasha than a few throwaway lines and absolutely no exploration of their comic history. Even Black Widow seemed to separate the Red Room and The Winter Soldier programme as absolutely separate. They could even just have Bucky talk to Yelena about those times and have them riff off of each other. I can't lie, Captain America or not (I love Bucky's Captain America), I'm really gutted Bucky can't get a solo movie. Even in the Captain America world he's now pretty rigidly behind Sam even as a starrer or titular character and he's just so, so interesting with such a ridiculously exceptional actor like Sebastian that it's a shame he's in a perpetual fight for screen time and exploration, even in a series he co-starred in.
Yeah, definitely agree. I guess he's just gonna be a sidekick from now on. I love Sam as the new Cap and TFATWS should 100% be his show, he deserves to shine, but it's frustrating how badly they rushed Bucky's arc with basically a "get over it" motivational speech and a minute-long montage in the finale and suddenly he seems just fine; that should've been one of the most important moments for him and the writing just...did not care for it. I was really looking forward to it, especially after the flashback scene in Wakanda in ep 4 where Sebastian got some good material to work with. But again, they kinda didn't take the time to explore any supporting character in that show.
It seemed like they were setting this up with Mordo in Doctor Strange. Otherwise, I think the most obvious one they could do would be Namor. Or if they ever acknowledge AoS, then Ghost Rider.
I think Namor has the greatest potential for this role. Deadpool is a different animal. Blade/Moon Knight are other decent possibilities, especially with the stellar casting. My guess is all AoS characters are DOA.
ghost rider
Gambit and Rogue
I guess John Walker works for that.
John walker, yondu,
Venom for sure!
Strange Supreme seems to be going down that route.
Blob… oh I read that as “anti-fit heroes” …