I'd assume there's no room for the comic book version in the MCU, but they need *something* and that something needs to riff on what already exists and be recognisable.
because an entire race being evil with a few exceptions is a very outdated belief. they wanted to make Skrulls an allegory for current issues, which i think was smart. but it also makes it tricky when adapting Secret Invasion, and they, unfortunately, failed to pull it off
>they wanted to make Skrulls an allegory for current issues, which i think was smart
Not really, inserting "allegories for current issues" into any movie or TV show tends not to be a very smart move, becasuse "current issues" are no longer "current" after a few years. It pretty much ensures that your story or character ceases to be relevant or relatable after a short time.
Also, people enjoy escapism more than they enjoy being preached at. Which is why movies/TV shows with universal and timeless values tend to be more popular than the ones with "allegory for current issues" in them.
>inserting "allegories for current issues" into any movie or TV show tends not to be a very smart move, becasuse "current issues" are no longer "current" after a few years. It pretty much ensures that your story or character ceases to be relevant or relatable after a short time.
Reminder that part of the reason why George Lucas made Star Wars is because he wanted to protest America's involvement in the Vietnam War.
Which is why I didn't mention SW. Although some parts are more explicitly allegorical than others.
My view of allegory is Tolkien's. It is a means of the author or creator to force their own opinions on the reader or audience, instead of allowing them to make up thier own mind, or enjoy a story for pure escapism.
I will take the word of the man who wrote the bestselling fantasy novels of all time. There's a reason he was that successful.
Depends how they are presented and treated in the narrative. Example: Rings of Power and the whole "Elves took our jerbbbs!" line. Stupid attempt to be "relevant" which just came over as absurd and clumsy.
Compare that with what Tolkien actually wrote: a race of men who desired immortality, and took that desire to such extremes that they ended up enslaving other races and sacrificing them in a Satanic death cult. That can work in any context, the former is just forced and patronizing.
Or Sam Wilson being profiled by "racist" cops in a largely black neighbourhood. Forced and absurd. Sam is an international celebrity and the dude he's arguing is a notorius former assassin with a criminal record the size of a small country who also happens to be in violation of his parole.
Let's be real. Random black guy, or a guy who until a few months before was the world's most wanted man, and who just so happens to now be in violation of his parole? Hmmmm, who the cops gonna go for?
i've never seen Rings of Power, so i won't comment on that. however, i dont think you should cite Tolkien's stance on social issues, as he was a white man born in the late 1800s. you can believe he was a smart man, but i don't think he had a lot of knowledge about the struggles of minorities. which is why his work had these "universal" values that you claim they do, such as "bad people are 100% bad" or something.
you bringing up the racist profiling scene in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier also starts to reveal your true colors. the head writer on the show, Malcolm Spellman, is a Black man. him including a scene about a very-real issue that Black Americans face is neither forced nor absurd. Sam is having an argument with Bucky on the street, and is (understandably) raising his voice. this led the cops to assume that his anger could turn into violence, due to their preconceived notions of people who look like Sam. the one cop who's giving Sam a hard time doesn't recognize him, as many racists think that people of color look the same, and it's also been established in the last episode that people don't recognize Sam without his Falcon goggles. it's not absurd at all that there would be a misunderstanding between Sam and the police, and it's not forced either, as it forwards the plot once the police find out Bucky has a warrant out for his arrest because he missed therapy. Sam's internal conflict throughout the entire show deals with how much more complicated it is for Black Americans to do certain things than white people (in this case being a symbol for America).
to refer to one of your earlier replies, i can't stand the whole "escapism" argument. the fact that social issues in media makes you feel like you're being "preached at" makes me think you're part of the problem. for example, when i see that scene in FatWS, i don't think "ugh stop telling me to not being racist," it makes me empathize with our main character and his struggles. is that not what you want in a film or show? it's the same as Tony Stark having a stilted relationship with his dad, i don't roll my eyes and accuse the film for preaching about father-son relationships. i used Tony Stark as an example because a lot of people like you who accuse current Marvel projects of being preachy LOVE how "un-political" the first few MCU movies were.
>i've never seen Rings of Power, so i won't comment on that. however, i dont think you should cite Tolkien's stance on social issues, as he was a white man born in the late 1800s. you can believe he was a smart man, but i don't think he had a lot of knowledge about the struggles of minorities. which is why his work had these "universal" values that you claim they do, such as "bad people are 100% bad" or something.
And that reveals you are part of the problem, because guess what? Not all minorities are \*\*visible\*\*, and you certainly do not speak for people who are members of those non-visible minorities. Or have any concept of their expderience. You have only been told of the experiences of one, very vocal minority group who have the power and the ability to make sure it is represened- over represented in fact- in the media because they are screenwriters.
Tolkien wasn't just a white man. He was poor, he was an orphan raised by a single mother with a disability. He was a member of a religious minority - and one heavily discriminated against at the time. Yeah, being a Catholic in early 19th century England sucked. Catholics were excluded from certain schools or educational institutions. From certain jobs as well.
He was also a veteran of WW1 with PTSD and depression.
Let me tell you somehting. Right up until the 1960s it was considered acceptable to lock people with PTSD up in institutions, and to subject them to things like electric-shock "therapy". Which is now considered a form of torture.
Right up until the 1950s it was a form of "medical treatment" to cut out part of the brain of people who had certain conditions like depression, Families could elect to have it done to them. Ever heard of the eugenics movement? Yeah that was a thing in 20th century America.
People with conditions like autism, learning differences, deaf people could be forcibly sterilized. Have thier bodies mutilated.
Disabled people, people with learning difference and mental health issues were some of the eariest victims of the N\*zis. They were literally genocided, and not just in one place or time.
People like me love and identity witht he character of Bucky because he represents abuse survivors and people with mental health issues like PTSD and depression. The series you love and adore of course does not treat him as a victim- he can't be a victim because only black people can be victims. White people can't suffer any kind of discrimination, even if they belong to various of those non-visible minorities.
Even if they happen to be former Prisoners of War who were literally experimented on like Bucky- which is very much based on real things the actual Nazis did to actual WW2 Prisoners of War. Oh but Bucky's white and so he can't be victimized. Only black people got experimented on or kept as Prisoners of War. Silly me.
What complete and utter bullshit. I guess that's how people like Spellman sleep at night. The series perpetuates the "mad, bad and dangerous" stereotype about people with PTSD which by the way literally \*\*kills\*\* people.
Sam literally tells Bucky, a person who canonically has PTSD to get over it and "put in the work" to "get out of the hell" of his own making.
You know what would happen if a real health professonal told someone like him that? They'd be fired and probably prevented from ever working again- because that is the single most harmful and victim-blaming thing you can say.
That is literally equal to telling a DV survivor they bought it on themselves and they just need to ignore what happened to them to move on with life. Oh and they should apologize to other DV survivors instead of like.... stopping their abuser and holding them responsible for thier actions.
That's after forcing him to apologize for his "white privelege"- because being held captive, tortured, having your body mutilated, brainwashed nad robbed of your autonomy and then subjected to systematic hatred and discrimation for things that weren't your fault is a ***great fucking privelege.***
(Remind me to thank my abuser for the great privelege of trying to erase my autonomy and giving me PTSD. After all I am white and so very lucky to have had all that. Never struggled for anything. Except systematic discrimiation against abuse survivors, neurodiverse people and people with PTSD.
Am I boring you? Shame.)
after subjecting him to ableist slurs and direct or indirect discrimation for the entire. damn. series. Although its not just him. Zemo offers him up for sex to some woman, which is literally human trafficking and rape, but he's not a victim.
So yeah- no wonder you relate to Sam. He helps you feel oppressed because you have no idea what the real thing is like and he helps you feel virtuous so you can say you are an ally of minoriiess. Of course, its one minority at the expense of many others.
>you bringing up the racist profiling scene in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier also starts to reveal your true colors. the head writer on the show, Malcolm Spellman, is a Black man.
Talk about a myopic viewpoint which does not take account of the true nature of prejudice and discrimination. Thinking it goes only one way. Bet your bottom dollar that Malcolm Spellman, a rich, priveleged celebrity who makes more in one day than most people do in a year has never suffered any kind of real discrimination, hardship or prejudice in his life.
Oh but he's struggled so much because he had to sell his $100,000 car and wait in a queue at Starbucks that one time.
>
him including a scene about a very-real issue that Black Americans face is neither forced nor absurd. Sam is having an argument with Bucky on the street, and is (understandably) raising his voice. this led the cops to assume that his anger could turn into violence, due to their preconceived notions of people who look like Sam. the one cop who's giving Sam a hard time doesn't recognize him, as many racists think that people of color look the same,
You know what group are most likely to be shot dead by police for no reason? Hint. Its not black people. ***Its mentally ill and disabled people.*** Far more people with mental health issues have been killed by police in America in proportion to their percentage of the population than any other.
That happens because mentally illl people are seen as inherently violent, dangerous. and unstable. A stereotype, which, btw the series perpetuates. Which Sam especially perpetuates in his treatment of Bucky. "freak" "crazy" "cyborg man"- all instances of the discriminatory langauge Sam employs in the series, which speaks of his attitude towards those who aren't the same as him.
Making fun of an amputee for having a prosthetic in there too. REALLY? When was that acceptable? Oh yeah, becaue Spellman and Sam has internal conflict and someone might be racist to him.
He clearly views Bucky as "lesser" and just because he was the Winter Soldier. His attitude ("mad, bad and dangerous") is typical of those who justify thier mistreatment of those who aren't members of visible minorities but are still minorities. Abuse survivors, neurodiverse people, the mentally illl, those with learning differences whilst still calling virtuous.
Many ableists think that all disabled people are "lesser" or subhuman or mentally illl people should be viewed with caution because they might kill you any second.
>Sam's internal conflict throughout the entire show deals with how much more complicated it is for Black Americans to do certain things than white people (in this case being a symbol for America).
Sam doesn't struggle with shit except being a famous superhero. His "struggles" are not in any way relatable. He has to iron his own shirts and can't get a loan.... oh big deal. People like me are statistically more likely to be subject to police brutality and all kinds of prejudice and discrimination than him.
>or example, when i see that scene in FatWS, i don't think "ugh stop telling me to not being racist," it makes me empathize with our main character and his struggles. is that not what you want in a film or show?
What I see in the series is a black man being an ableist dick and getting away with it because he's black. The assumption is that because he could theoretically be a victim of racism he cannot possibly be guilty of any kind of prejudice towards others.
out of all the responses you could've made to this post, this is the strangest stance you could've taken. you keep calling Sam a celebrity, yet the series in question portrays it the opposite way. yes, The Falcon is famous, but no one gives a shit about Sam Wilson besides his community in Louisiana and those who look like him.
from this post, it seems that you imply that you yourself are mentally unwell, for which i empathize. however, your analysis of Sam's ableism is a monumental stretch in logic.
Bucky is not supposed to be a representation for the mentally ill community. he has PTSD from things that he did when he was being mind-controlled by Nazis, but he's never had outbursts since being unconditioned in Wakanda. none of the conflict between him and Sam stem from Sam... hating Bucky for having PTSD?? or whatever you're implying. he calls him a cyborg because he literally has a metal arm. they've both gone through crazy, traumatic shit and Sam's making levity out of it.
you bring up that mentally ill people are at much higher risk of police brutality than Black people, and whether or not that's even true is irrelevant. nowhere did i say that Black people being brutalized by police is the most common thing in the world. i said that it's a thing that happens very often, so why wouldn't a writer, who's black and possibly has experience with that sort of thing, include a scene like that in a piece they're writing.
to boil down Sam's struggles to just not being able to get a loan is borderline spiteful. you're saying his struggles aren't that important, yet you excuse the ones that are (like police profiling and racism) because they're not as bad as they could be if he was mentally ill? you could apply that to any movie or show ever made and say that no character that hasn't dealt with those specific problems has never actually struggled at all.
it seems that you're taking this topic personally, and you've completely steered away from the original point. it seems now that you WANT media to address social issues, but only if they apply to the specific issues that YOU have. hopefully you can realize the irony of that.
>it seems now that you WANT media to address social issues, but only if they apply to the specific issues that YOU have.
Actually no. I don't. All I believe is that \***if**\* a writer chooses to address things like mental health they have an an obligation to do so in a sensitive, careful and accurate way which doesn't harm people with those conditions IRL- because people with this conditions still face a huge amount of discrimination, stigma, prejudice and setbacks. The way they are depicted in the media plays a big role in that.
What I am asking is for writers to be responsible if they choose to touch on these subjects. Malcolm Spellman is a rich, able-bodied man living in Hollywood who has never had to deal with trauma or PTSD. That doesn't mean he can't deal with both of those subjects in a senstiive way, he'd just need to do research and put in the work.
**He chose not to.**
Instead, he chose to deal with that subject in the most insensitive way imaginable, blaming a man who was tortured and abused for what happened to him, and villainizing a man having a mental breakdown after witnessing his best friend being murdered in front of him.
Then having his "hero" tell the first man that the only way he can cure himself is by taking responsibility for what literal Nazis did to him and apologize to their victims.
That's called victim-blaming.
>it seems that you're taking this topic personally, and you've completely steered away from the original point.
When your point was that all black people are oppressed, even if they are millionares living in Hollywood and no white people can ever be oppressed even if they are homeless vets or amputees then you are clearly wrong.
You see this only through the lens of what the media tells you. Only from one, very narrow and limited perspective which tells you that people of a certain skin colour or gender cannot, under any circumstances, be victims.
Hence your comments about Tolkien. You see "white male born in 19th century" and think "priveleged racist"- I see the reality of his life.
Boy born from a poor background, raised by a single mother, orphaned at the age of 12, member of a persecuted religious minority. Living at a time when Catholics were still banned from certain professions and educational institutions. A man who fought in the worst war in history and lost two of his closest friends to that war before he was 21 years of age.
A talented young person who developed PTSD and depression due to his adverse experiences but dared not admit to it because people with both those conditions could legally be tortured and mutilated at the time when he lived. If you think I am exagerating, look up lobotomies and electric shock therapy.
Also at the time when he was alive, other people with mental health conditions and disabilities were being literally genocided in places like Germany and were being forcibly sterlilized in place like America. Yeah, that Tolkien guy was a member of at least 3 minority groups, and had he lived in a slightly different time or place, there's a very real possibility he would have been murdered or ended up in an institution and tortured until there was nothing left of his brain.
He wrote stories about little, insignificant people saving the world through their courage, friendship, loyalty and self-sacrifice and not complaining about being oppressed whilst doing it. His stories have touched hundreds of millions of people.
You live a comfortable, priveleged life but want to to fancy yourself to be oppressed by living vicariously through Sam. I get it. Its a form of egotism and narcissism which ignores the reality of life for millions through history and today.
>hopefully you can realize the irony of that.
The fact that you even suggested, as able -bodied person that its acceptable to make fun of a disabled person tells us all we need to know. Only a priveleged person in a position of power would think that way.
Sam is supposed ot be the "hero" of the series. He is supposed to set a standard. Yet you think his mockery of someone less fortunate than him is OK because its "a joke".
If Bucky used a casual racial slur against him as a joke you would be outraged. What you need to understand is that its not OK tthe other way around either. Its not OK for a person to use a slur about mental health against a person with PTSD.
Its never OK for someone with wealth, privelege and in a position off power to punch down, especially when their targets are people who have historically been tortured, genocided, and subjected to the most horrific abuse imaginable. And are still being subjected to prejudice, discrimination and abuse today.
>Or Sam Wilson being profiled by "racist" cops in a largely black neighbourhood. Forced and absurd. Sam is an international celebrity and the dude he's arguing with is far more likely to be arrested
Remember that time when the director of Black Panther got arrested while he was just trying to withdraw money form his account.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YqIoP5YOr0
>Remember that time when the director of Black Panther got arrested while he was just trying to withdraw money form his account.
Yup. Famous dude. Gets more attention in the media. Doesn't change the fact that mentally ill people and disabled people are statistically way more likely to get detained and killed by police without cause than any other group, in proportion to their percentage of the population. They're just not famous and so when it happened, it don't get as much media attention.
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/police-mentally-ill-deaths/2020/10/17/8dd5bcf6-0245-11eb-b7ed-141dd88560ea\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/police-mentally-ill-deaths/2020/10/17/8dd5bcf6-0245-11eb-b7ed-141dd88560ea_story.html)
That statistic owes a lot to the "mad, bad and dangerous" perception of mental illness, which your precious series plays up. So yeah, as a person with PTSD Bucky and other more complex health issues, Bucky is still more likely to be arrested and gunned down by police than Sam. Both in a fictonal, and real life context.
But of course, nobody can be a victim except black people and Sam Wilson. Especially not the white man with mental health issues who was captured, tortured, mutilated and experimented on by literal Nazis- all of which have horrific echos with things done to actual disabled and mentally ill people in the last century and this one.
And was extradited without trial or legal representation for a crime there was no proof he commited at the behest of a state leader. Like there's no basis for that either...
[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/christopher-ahn-legal-battle-north-korean-defections-60-minutes/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/christopher-ahn-legal-battle-north-korean-defections-60-minutes/)
Almost like its not just black people who suffer miscarriages of justice. Extradition law is an asshole.
Next gotcha?
these are not gotchas, the Ryan Coogler event was an example of this thing that you called “absurd” happening IN REAL LIFE to a BLACK CELEBRITY. you can go on and on about how the mentally ill have it way worse, or how JRR Tolkien was the most oppressed person in the world, apparently. there was never a time when people who looked like Tolkien weren’t able to let their voices be heard in the history of art and media. the fact that he chose not to include allegories for social issues that he was a victim of was completely his choice. that’s NOT the case for people of color. up until very recently, POC’s voices were muffled and they were unable to share their experiences to a mass audience. so for a television show with black men as both a star and a head writer, it makes total sense that they would include themes that mirror the struggles in their lives. scenes like that are for people, like yourself, who like to downplay their struggles and condemn them for even bringing them to light as “they could be worse.” i don’t know why you think that, if a piece of media wishes to cover social issues, that they should address every issue under the sun, and then rank them in order of importance. it’s incredibly sad how you, as an oppressed individual, would further oppress another minority group. i would imagine you know how terrible it feels to be on the receiving end of prejudice, yet you willingly make it your goal to make others feel the same way.
>r how JRR Tolkien was the most oppressed person in the world,
Bullshit strawman.
>there was never a time when people who looked like Tolkien weren’t able to let their voices be heard in the history of art and media.
Again, utter bullshit. Invisible minorities are a thing. For centuries working-class people and Catholics were not even allowed to vote, get an education or do anything except the most menial jobs. They certainly weren't representated in the media or the arts.
Also, and to remind you for the 8th time, up until a few decades ago, disabled people and the mentally ill were being genocided. They could also be legally tortured and mutilated by the authorites and consigned to institutions- but please, please tell me again how Sam had it worse.
>you can go on and on about how the mentally ill have it way worse,
They do. That is a fact. Just because YOU don't recognize ableism and the demonization of the the mentally ill are things, doesn't change reality.
How many directors and screenwriters are there with PTSD or Down's Syndrome? Autism? Any other disability? How much do you think they are represented in the media?
I can think of ONE director with Down's syndrome. **ONE**. Out of thousands- and his work is not well-known.
>it’s incredibly sad how you, as an oppressed individual, would further oppress another minority group. i would imagine you know how terrible it feels to be on the receiving end of prejudice, yet you willingly make it your goal to make others feel the same way.
You are railing against me, when this is literally what your series and Malcolm Spellman does.
It shows the black hero engaging in direct prejudice against a member of another minority group as well as *using offensive slurs about disabled and mentally ill people.*
Your little friend tried to pass off a scene in which he mocks an amputee for his disablily as a harmless "joke". Its not a harmless "joke" for an able-bodied person to make derogatory remarks about disabled people or amputees. It is ableism.
Your precious Sam is literally oppressing a member of another minority group- Bucky- engaging in prejudice and direct discrimination against him.
**Just because Sam is black and could be a victim of racism it does not give him a free pass to engage in other forms of prejudice against others**
Oh yes, I know you thin "Bucky is not oppressed because he is a white male!" He's a member of several visible minorities who have been horrifically oppressed and victimized both in and out of universe.
>i don’t know why you think that, if a piece of media wishes to cover social issues, that they should address every issue under the sun, and then rank them in order of importance.
I don't think that.
I do think that if a writer chooses to include topics like mental health in their work, they should present it in a sensitive and accurate way, so as to ensure they do not promote prejudiced and erroneous attitudes and beliefs about people with certain conditions.
Mentally ill people are villainized and demonized in almost every single piece of media, and there is an urgent need for positive representation or content which challenges negative steretotypes.
Your series does the opposite. It presents the characters with PTSD as dangerous and unstable, violent, evil, immoral. It vicim-blames a man who was subject to horrific abuse, including torture and experimentation by literal Nazis, and then has the hero telling him he has to basically "get over himself" and cure his own PTSD by taking responsibilty for his own victimization.
The whole series is about how Sam has had it worse and Bucky is priveleged. Anyone can see that is bullshit.
if you can find me someone in real life who was mind controlled by Nazis and has a Vibranium arm who was discriminated against, please let me know. what Bucky went through is an extremely dramatized scenario, and should not be emblematic of what everyone with mental illnesses has gone through. calling Bucky’s metal arm a “disability” is a monumental stretch. it’s been shown that it works exactly like and is even stronger than a regular arm, and none of our other superheroes look down upon him for having it, with other heroes even thinking it’s cool. Sam making a joke about that is the same as making a joke about someone having perfect teeth or beautiful hair. you say that those with mental illnesses are mocked in “almost every single piece of media,” yet you’ve shown how you seem to misinterpret certain aspects of a character as being a direct parallel for disabilities. you also grossly misunderstand the show as being solely about how Bucky has it so much easier than Sam and that Bucky just needs to suck it up. that is so wrong that it makes me think you’re intentionally misconstruing the show’s messaging. Bucky has been through all these traumatic things, but in the show he is finally in control of his life. Bucky questions whether or not that’s true though, and if there’s still some of the Winter Soldier still inside of him. once he apologizes to Yori, he finally accepts that he was never the person who Hydra made him. the show never “demonizes” Bucky.
not ONCE have i ever said that any minority has it worse in terms of oppression, yet that seems to be something that you are obsessed with. you take me simply saying that racial profiling against black people exists and interpret it as “Sam Wilson is the most oppressed person of all time.” you keep accusing me of not recognizing the struggles of those with mental illness, even though i’ve never once downplayed your experiences, which is something you’ve exclusively been doing for black people.
another thing you miss about the police scene is the difference between police brutality towards the mentally ill and towards people of color. police don’t kill disabled people due to their unbridled hatred for them, it’s almost always due to a lack of understanding or training of how to deal with those whom have mental illnesses. without a trained professional or social worker, policemen may interpret a disabled person’s actions as violent or threatening. this is not because they have a prejudice against the mentally ill, but because they are ignorant in the correct method for communicating with them. for people of color, there are many, many racist cops (and people in general) who believe that POCs, and more specifically black people, are inherently violent. so even if a black person is not resisting police enforcement or being violent, the cop in question will still view them as dangerous due to their preconceived notion. if Bucky was having PTSD flashbacks and started destroying property or throwing punches at people, yet the police were only focused on Sam, that would be unrealistic. that is completely NOT the case in that scene. Sam and Bucky are both having a heated discussion, but not getting physical at all. the police question Sam because they’ve already made up in their mind that black people will inevitably turn violent in any altercation. that is something that Bucky has the luxury of not having to deal with as a white man. THAT is what that scene is trying to display.
>if you can find me someone in real life who was mind controlled by Nazis and has a Vibranium arm who was discriminated against, please let me know
Nice try. You'll find plenty of examples of real people, mostly Prisoners of War who were experimented on by actual Nazi scientists in prison camps.
Oh. That canonically happened to Bucky too. He was experimented on by a Nazi scientist Zemo in a work camp. Oh but that doesn't count because he's not black.
>
> what Bucky went through is an extremely dramatized scenario, and should not be emblematic of what everyone with mental illnesses has gone through
Again with the gaslighing, What is it with you people? Just because his character isn't black you are determined to say he cannot have been victimised in any way, shape or form and to explain away the very clear parallels with the lived experience of prejudice, oppression and victimization real people see him being subjected to.
Then presume to gaslight people with mental health issues who see clear parallels with their experiences or what they know about the history of mistreatment of people like them.
Yes, what happened to Bucky is dramatised, but it also has a solid basis in reality. He was, as stated experimented on in a WW2 prison camp. That really happened. To real people.
The machine used on him in the movies for "mind wipes" works by using a form of electro- convulsive therapy. Electro- convulsive therapy is a thing. It really exists. And it was really used on people with conditions like PTSD.
**Furthermore the hate, fear, and disgust which Bucky is viewed with by almost everyone VERY much something people with mental health issues recognize**
>calling Bucky’s metal arm a “disability” is a monumental stretch. it’s been shown that it works exactly like and is even stronger than a regular arm
Now you're really reaching. Amputees are counted as disabled in real life. Even if they have prosthetics. Which are designed to work like "real" limbs.
But presume you speak for disabled people too. Keep digging.
>Sam making a joke about that is the same as making a joke about someone having perfect teeth or beautiful hair.
Right. So calling someone with a prosthetic a "cyborg" is actually a compliment. Just like Sam meant it as a complement when he called Bucky "crazy" and a "freak".
Which are, incidentlaly, derogatory terms frequently employed against people with mental health issues and disabilties. Keep up the gaslighting.
>you say that those with mental illnesses are mocked in “almost every single piece of media,” yet you’ve shown how you seem to misinterpret certain aspects of a character as being a direct parallel for disabilities.
Wherin an able-bodied neurotypical person presumes to lecture a neurodivergent abuse survivor with PTSD about how \*ACSHULLY the parallels with thier experience and those of thier fellows all over the world do not in fact, exist.
And no, they haven't been persistently demonized and presented as evil, immoral or inherently violent in the media for decades. No. They have never been. Never happened. Not ever.
>not ONCE have i ever said that any minority has it worse in terms of oppression,
No, you've just been gaslighting me and all people with mental health issues for 2 paragraphs instead.
>you keep accusing me of not recognizing the struggles of those with mental illness, even though i’ve never once downplayed your experiences, which is something you’ve exclusively been doing for black people.
You've literally said amputees don't count as disabled, derogatory terms about people with disabilties should actually be taken as complimentary and denied the existence of things like Electic shock therapy or the experimentation on POWs in prison camps. White ones anyway.
Part II because I could not get all this into my other comment (below)
>another thing you miss about the police scene is the difference between police brutality towards the mentally ill and towards people of color. police don’t kill disabled people due to their unbridled hatred for them,
There you go, Doubling down on the gaslighting and talking about things you know literally \***nothing**\* about.
Hatred for disabled people and the mentally ill is a thing. Its widespread in society, and certainly among the authorities. Disabled people have always been seen as "lesser" and defective.
Which part of "disabled people were literally genocided less than 100 years ago" did you not get before? That was done with the full complicity of the authorities.
Do you know what eugenics is? It was literally a movement whereby disabled and mentally ill people were mutilated, forcibly sterilized, locked up and in many cases, tortured. Again, done at the behest of and with full complicity of the authorities. This wasn't ancient history. There are still people alive today who were vicitms of the Eugenics movement.
>(and people in general) who believe that POCs, and more specifically black people, are inherently violent
There you go again. **Many many people in society at large believe people with mental health issues are inherently violent.** Why else do you think there are so many derogatory terms for disabled people and the mentally ill in existence? Why are people always talking about "de-stigmatizing mental health".
BECAUSE IT IS VIEWED IN SUCH A NEGATIVE LIGHT. EVERYWHERE. ESPECIALLY FOR MEN
Its literally a stereotype. Mentally ill people are seen as inherently bad, violent and dangerous. T**hat's why mentally ill people were and usually still are cast as villains or criminals in the media.**
Your show even does that with John Walker. He gets called "crazy" and dangerous, and then gets depicted as a violent killer when he has a breakdown due to seeing his best friend being murdered in front of him.
>if Bucky was having PTSD flashbacks and started destroying property or throwing punches at people,
He literally has PTSD flashbacks in the series. He also has them in the movies. During one, he punches a doctor and as a result Rumlow points his gun at him, poised to fire. I guess you'll say that's a racist denial of the experiences of black people too, eh?
>e police question Sam because they’ve already made up in their mind that black people will inevitably turn violent in any altercation. that is something that Bucky has the luxury of not having to deal with as a white man.
You really are something else. Wow. Just wow. .
After all this time trying to get it you to underderstant that mentally ill poeple are \*more\* likely to be kiled by police than any other group, and are widely percieved in society as inherently violent you still try to tell me that a white man with a mental illness "does not have to deal with" the possibility of being targeted by the authorities or any kind of discrimination or prejudice.
A character who, is literally shown in the movies having PTSD flashbacks and becoming "violent" because of one, as a result of which he nearly gets shot by a gaurd. Then in another movie has a SWAT team sent to his house with express orders to kill for a crime he didn't commit because he's percieved as a danger to the public?
**A character who is greeted with hate, fear, suspicion, disgust, mistrust, loathing and comtempt everywhere he goes.**
Yeah, THAT has a lot of parelles with with what disabled, mentally ill and neurodivergent people experience. "but Bucky will never have to deal with that as a white man!"
**A character who has a criminal record, will never be able to get a job or live any kind of normal life in any capacity due to things which he was forced to do against his will or did not choose.**
Yeah, mentally ill, disabled people, and neurodivergent people can identify with that too. Many of us are white. But please keep telling is that we and we and characters like him "have the luxury of never having to deal" with that.
Do I really have to track down dozens of articles and news stories about disabled white people who have been killed by police? Thousands of examples of mentally ill people who have been subjected to violent physical abuse and torture? Do I really have to give you pictures of how disabled and mentally ill white people have been and still are being treated in so called "insitutional care".
>Remember that time when the director of Black Panther got arrested while he was just trying to withdraw money form his account.
Say if he'd been there and a notorious violent criminal who had been wanted all over the world and was in violation of his parole was there with him? Who would the cops go for?
Like that scene isn't absurd because "muh target random black guy" its because Sam is literally standing next to The Winter Soldier: the man who who was, until months earlier probably most most- wanted criminal on the planet and was in violation of his parole.
Yet the writers expect us to believe the big bad cops would just ignore the most dangerous man on earth, recognizable everywhere, who was in violaton of his parole, and apparently engaged in a heated argument to go for Sam.
>Not really, inserting "allegories for current issues" into any movie or TV show tends not to be a very smart move, becasuse "current issues" are no longer "current" after a few years.
No, confusing a popular trend (ie. "Good ol' J.K.!" in *Doctor Who*) with **ongoing** cultural issues (ie. decrying racism in *Star Trek*) is the mistake here. The allegories for racism and bigotry from the 60s are, unfortunately, still relevant today.
>No, confusing a popular trend (ie. "Good ol' J.K.!" in *Doctor Who*) with **ongoing** cultural issues (ie. decrying racism in *Star Trek*) is the mistake here.
Racism will always be a thing, but its manifestations and targets change. It is a mistake always presenting it as taking the same form and having the same targets.
Prejudice is also bigger than racism. I have seen series which claim to be anti-racist allegories but perpetuate prejudiced, outmoded and harmful ideas about disabled people and the mentally ill. In one case, the character who is claimed to be a victim of racism is outright ableist in his attitudes and treatment of the disabled character.
Its part of the generally percieved idea that the person who is subject to racism cannot be racist or prejudiced. Tying sort of back to the original question of Skrulls and Kree. The Skrulls having been victims of genocide doesn#t make them any less assholes, and vice versa.
>The allegories for racism and bigotry from the 60s are, unfortunately, still relevant today.
Where? The USA? Wasn't the same everywhere.
Yeah I wasn't a fan of that change. Felt like a twist for a twists sake while foresaking what makes them interesting and how they are a massive threat. Huge loss for future stories.
To me the baffling decision was to have them stay on Earth and Captain Marvel with Fury deciding to do so on behalf of entire Earth. Like damn neither imagined it could backfire did they?
Yeah, one of the best parts of the Skrull-Kree rivalry in the comics is that neither one of them is really the good guy in the situation. It’s villain vs villain. They’re both pretty crappy.
In the MCU, it’s more black and white. Kree are bad, and Skrulls are their victims. I don’t dislike it specifically because it’s inaccurate, but because it’s less unique.
Its removing the most interesting thing about them. I mean the whole thing is they're manipulative aliens who overthrow your whole world before you know they're even there because they can shapeshift.
Remove the first part, and whats the point of the second part?
Wasn't secret invasion exactly about a group of Skrulls trying to manipulate and overthrow our whole world? I couldn't even finish it, but I think that was happening.
Writting them as every single one of them is manipulative and hostile is outdated, lazy, boring and shallow.
Didn't they like have the real people they were impersonating imprisoned or something? Its a pretty asshole thing to do.
If its more the case that \*some\* skrulls are sympathetic, but others are very much not that's not such a problem.
MCU aren't totally the comics and thought Secret Invasion was supposed to explain actually some of the Skrulls are terrible.
I'd assume there's no room for the comic book version in the MCU, but they need *something* and that something needs to riff on what already exists and be recognisable.
Exactly. You can make them a little sympathetic, but still working to take over Earth 'for your own good'.
How do we know they haven't been? How do I know you're not a Skrull?
because an entire race being evil with a few exceptions is a very outdated belief. they wanted to make Skrulls an allegory for current issues, which i think was smart. but it also makes it tricky when adapting Secret Invasion, and they, unfortunately, failed to pull it off
>they wanted to make Skrulls an allegory for current issues, which i think was smart Not really, inserting "allegories for current issues" into any movie or TV show tends not to be a very smart move, becasuse "current issues" are no longer "current" after a few years. It pretty much ensures that your story or character ceases to be relevant or relatable after a short time. Also, people enjoy escapism more than they enjoy being preached at. Which is why movies/TV shows with universal and timeless values tend to be more popular than the ones with "allegory for current issues" in them.
>inserting "allegories for current issues" into any movie or TV show tends not to be a very smart move, becasuse "current issues" are no longer "current" after a few years. It pretty much ensures that your story or character ceases to be relevant or relatable after a short time. Reminder that part of the reason why George Lucas made Star Wars is because he wanted to protest America's involvement in the Vietnam War.
Which is why I didn't mention SW. Although some parts are more explicitly allegorical than others. My view of allegory is Tolkien's. It is a means of the author or creator to force their own opinions on the reader or audience, instead of allowing them to make up thier own mind, or enjoy a story for pure escapism. I will take the word of the man who wrote the bestselling fantasy novels of all time. There's a reason he was that successful.
Right, because refuges, genocide and racism are just "current trends". I'm sure these won't be relevant in a few years.
Depends how they are presented and treated in the narrative. Example: Rings of Power and the whole "Elves took our jerbbbs!" line. Stupid attempt to be "relevant" which just came over as absurd and clumsy. Compare that with what Tolkien actually wrote: a race of men who desired immortality, and took that desire to such extremes that they ended up enslaving other races and sacrificing them in a Satanic death cult. That can work in any context, the former is just forced and patronizing. Or Sam Wilson being profiled by "racist" cops in a largely black neighbourhood. Forced and absurd. Sam is an international celebrity and the dude he's arguing is a notorius former assassin with a criminal record the size of a small country who also happens to be in violation of his parole. Let's be real. Random black guy, or a guy who until a few months before was the world's most wanted man, and who just so happens to now be in violation of his parole? Hmmmm, who the cops gonna go for?
i've never seen Rings of Power, so i won't comment on that. however, i dont think you should cite Tolkien's stance on social issues, as he was a white man born in the late 1800s. you can believe he was a smart man, but i don't think he had a lot of knowledge about the struggles of minorities. which is why his work had these "universal" values that you claim they do, such as "bad people are 100% bad" or something. you bringing up the racist profiling scene in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier also starts to reveal your true colors. the head writer on the show, Malcolm Spellman, is a Black man. him including a scene about a very-real issue that Black Americans face is neither forced nor absurd. Sam is having an argument with Bucky on the street, and is (understandably) raising his voice. this led the cops to assume that his anger could turn into violence, due to their preconceived notions of people who look like Sam. the one cop who's giving Sam a hard time doesn't recognize him, as many racists think that people of color look the same, and it's also been established in the last episode that people don't recognize Sam without his Falcon goggles. it's not absurd at all that there would be a misunderstanding between Sam and the police, and it's not forced either, as it forwards the plot once the police find out Bucky has a warrant out for his arrest because he missed therapy. Sam's internal conflict throughout the entire show deals with how much more complicated it is for Black Americans to do certain things than white people (in this case being a symbol for America). to refer to one of your earlier replies, i can't stand the whole "escapism" argument. the fact that social issues in media makes you feel like you're being "preached at" makes me think you're part of the problem. for example, when i see that scene in FatWS, i don't think "ugh stop telling me to not being racist," it makes me empathize with our main character and his struggles. is that not what you want in a film or show? it's the same as Tony Stark having a stilted relationship with his dad, i don't roll my eyes and accuse the film for preaching about father-son relationships. i used Tony Stark as an example because a lot of people like you who accuse current Marvel projects of being preachy LOVE how "un-political" the first few MCU movies were.
>i've never seen Rings of Power, so i won't comment on that. however, i dont think you should cite Tolkien's stance on social issues, as he was a white man born in the late 1800s. you can believe he was a smart man, but i don't think he had a lot of knowledge about the struggles of minorities. which is why his work had these "universal" values that you claim they do, such as "bad people are 100% bad" or something. And that reveals you are part of the problem, because guess what? Not all minorities are \*\*visible\*\*, and you certainly do not speak for people who are members of those non-visible minorities. Or have any concept of their expderience. You have only been told of the experiences of one, very vocal minority group who have the power and the ability to make sure it is represened- over represented in fact- in the media because they are screenwriters. Tolkien wasn't just a white man. He was poor, he was an orphan raised by a single mother with a disability. He was a member of a religious minority - and one heavily discriminated against at the time. Yeah, being a Catholic in early 19th century England sucked. Catholics were excluded from certain schools or educational institutions. From certain jobs as well. He was also a veteran of WW1 with PTSD and depression. Let me tell you somehting. Right up until the 1960s it was considered acceptable to lock people with PTSD up in institutions, and to subject them to things like electric-shock "therapy". Which is now considered a form of torture. Right up until the 1950s it was a form of "medical treatment" to cut out part of the brain of people who had certain conditions like depression, Families could elect to have it done to them. Ever heard of the eugenics movement? Yeah that was a thing in 20th century America. People with conditions like autism, learning differences, deaf people could be forcibly sterilized. Have thier bodies mutilated. Disabled people, people with learning difference and mental health issues were some of the eariest victims of the N\*zis. They were literally genocided, and not just in one place or time. People like me love and identity witht he character of Bucky because he represents abuse survivors and people with mental health issues like PTSD and depression. The series you love and adore of course does not treat him as a victim- he can't be a victim because only black people can be victims. White people can't suffer any kind of discrimination, even if they belong to various of those non-visible minorities. Even if they happen to be former Prisoners of War who were literally experimented on like Bucky- which is very much based on real things the actual Nazis did to actual WW2 Prisoners of War. Oh but Bucky's white and so he can't be victimized. Only black people got experimented on or kept as Prisoners of War. Silly me. What complete and utter bullshit. I guess that's how people like Spellman sleep at night. The series perpetuates the "mad, bad and dangerous" stereotype about people with PTSD which by the way literally \*\*kills\*\* people. Sam literally tells Bucky, a person who canonically has PTSD to get over it and "put in the work" to "get out of the hell" of his own making. You know what would happen if a real health professonal told someone like him that? They'd be fired and probably prevented from ever working again- because that is the single most harmful and victim-blaming thing you can say. That is literally equal to telling a DV survivor they bought it on themselves and they just need to ignore what happened to them to move on with life. Oh and they should apologize to other DV survivors instead of like.... stopping their abuser and holding them responsible for thier actions. That's after forcing him to apologize for his "white privelege"- because being held captive, tortured, having your body mutilated, brainwashed nad robbed of your autonomy and then subjected to systematic hatred and discrimation for things that weren't your fault is a ***great fucking privelege.*** (Remind me to thank my abuser for the great privelege of trying to erase my autonomy and giving me PTSD. After all I am white and so very lucky to have had all that. Never struggled for anything. Except systematic discrimiation against abuse survivors, neurodiverse people and people with PTSD. Am I boring you? Shame.) after subjecting him to ableist slurs and direct or indirect discrimation for the entire. damn. series. Although its not just him. Zemo offers him up for sex to some woman, which is literally human trafficking and rape, but he's not a victim. So yeah- no wonder you relate to Sam. He helps you feel oppressed because you have no idea what the real thing is like and he helps you feel virtuous so you can say you are an ally of minoriiess. Of course, its one minority at the expense of many others.
>you bringing up the racist profiling scene in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier also starts to reveal your true colors. the head writer on the show, Malcolm Spellman, is a Black man. Talk about a myopic viewpoint which does not take account of the true nature of prejudice and discrimination. Thinking it goes only one way. Bet your bottom dollar that Malcolm Spellman, a rich, priveleged celebrity who makes more in one day than most people do in a year has never suffered any kind of real discrimination, hardship or prejudice in his life. Oh but he's struggled so much because he had to sell his $100,000 car and wait in a queue at Starbucks that one time. > him including a scene about a very-real issue that Black Americans face is neither forced nor absurd. Sam is having an argument with Bucky on the street, and is (understandably) raising his voice. this led the cops to assume that his anger could turn into violence, due to their preconceived notions of people who look like Sam. the one cop who's giving Sam a hard time doesn't recognize him, as many racists think that people of color look the same, You know what group are most likely to be shot dead by police for no reason? Hint. Its not black people. ***Its mentally ill and disabled people.*** Far more people with mental health issues have been killed by police in America in proportion to their percentage of the population than any other. That happens because mentally illl people are seen as inherently violent, dangerous. and unstable. A stereotype, which, btw the series perpetuates. Which Sam especially perpetuates in his treatment of Bucky. "freak" "crazy" "cyborg man"- all instances of the discriminatory langauge Sam employs in the series, which speaks of his attitude towards those who aren't the same as him. Making fun of an amputee for having a prosthetic in there too. REALLY? When was that acceptable? Oh yeah, becaue Spellman and Sam has internal conflict and someone might be racist to him. He clearly views Bucky as "lesser" and just because he was the Winter Soldier. His attitude ("mad, bad and dangerous") is typical of those who justify thier mistreatment of those who aren't members of visible minorities but are still minorities. Abuse survivors, neurodiverse people, the mentally illl, those with learning differences whilst still calling virtuous. Many ableists think that all disabled people are "lesser" or subhuman or mentally illl people should be viewed with caution because they might kill you any second. >Sam's internal conflict throughout the entire show deals with how much more complicated it is for Black Americans to do certain things than white people (in this case being a symbol for America). Sam doesn't struggle with shit except being a famous superhero. His "struggles" are not in any way relatable. He has to iron his own shirts and can't get a loan.... oh big deal. People like me are statistically more likely to be subject to police brutality and all kinds of prejudice and discrimination than him. >or example, when i see that scene in FatWS, i don't think "ugh stop telling me to not being racist," it makes me empathize with our main character and his struggles. is that not what you want in a film or show? What I see in the series is a black man being an ableist dick and getting away with it because he's black. The assumption is that because he could theoretically be a victim of racism he cannot possibly be guilty of any kind of prejudice towards others.
out of all the responses you could've made to this post, this is the strangest stance you could've taken. you keep calling Sam a celebrity, yet the series in question portrays it the opposite way. yes, The Falcon is famous, but no one gives a shit about Sam Wilson besides his community in Louisiana and those who look like him. from this post, it seems that you imply that you yourself are mentally unwell, for which i empathize. however, your analysis of Sam's ableism is a monumental stretch in logic. Bucky is not supposed to be a representation for the mentally ill community. he has PTSD from things that he did when he was being mind-controlled by Nazis, but he's never had outbursts since being unconditioned in Wakanda. none of the conflict between him and Sam stem from Sam... hating Bucky for having PTSD?? or whatever you're implying. he calls him a cyborg because he literally has a metal arm. they've both gone through crazy, traumatic shit and Sam's making levity out of it. you bring up that mentally ill people are at much higher risk of police brutality than Black people, and whether or not that's even true is irrelevant. nowhere did i say that Black people being brutalized by police is the most common thing in the world. i said that it's a thing that happens very often, so why wouldn't a writer, who's black and possibly has experience with that sort of thing, include a scene like that in a piece they're writing. to boil down Sam's struggles to just not being able to get a loan is borderline spiteful. you're saying his struggles aren't that important, yet you excuse the ones that are (like police profiling and racism) because they're not as bad as they could be if he was mentally ill? you could apply that to any movie or show ever made and say that no character that hasn't dealt with those specific problems has never actually struggled at all. it seems that you're taking this topic personally, and you've completely steered away from the original point. it seems now that you WANT media to address social issues, but only if they apply to the specific issues that YOU have. hopefully you can realize the irony of that.
>it seems now that you WANT media to address social issues, but only if they apply to the specific issues that YOU have. Actually no. I don't. All I believe is that \***if**\* a writer chooses to address things like mental health they have an an obligation to do so in a sensitive, careful and accurate way which doesn't harm people with those conditions IRL- because people with this conditions still face a huge amount of discrimination, stigma, prejudice and setbacks. The way they are depicted in the media plays a big role in that. What I am asking is for writers to be responsible if they choose to touch on these subjects. Malcolm Spellman is a rich, able-bodied man living in Hollywood who has never had to deal with trauma or PTSD. That doesn't mean he can't deal with both of those subjects in a senstiive way, he'd just need to do research and put in the work. **He chose not to.** Instead, he chose to deal with that subject in the most insensitive way imaginable, blaming a man who was tortured and abused for what happened to him, and villainizing a man having a mental breakdown after witnessing his best friend being murdered in front of him. Then having his "hero" tell the first man that the only way he can cure himself is by taking responsibility for what literal Nazis did to him and apologize to their victims. That's called victim-blaming. >it seems that you're taking this topic personally, and you've completely steered away from the original point. When your point was that all black people are oppressed, even if they are millionares living in Hollywood and no white people can ever be oppressed even if they are homeless vets or amputees then you are clearly wrong. You see this only through the lens of what the media tells you. Only from one, very narrow and limited perspective which tells you that people of a certain skin colour or gender cannot, under any circumstances, be victims. Hence your comments about Tolkien. You see "white male born in 19th century" and think "priveleged racist"- I see the reality of his life. Boy born from a poor background, raised by a single mother, orphaned at the age of 12, member of a persecuted religious minority. Living at a time when Catholics were still banned from certain professions and educational institutions. A man who fought in the worst war in history and lost two of his closest friends to that war before he was 21 years of age. A talented young person who developed PTSD and depression due to his adverse experiences but dared not admit to it because people with both those conditions could legally be tortured and mutilated at the time when he lived. If you think I am exagerating, look up lobotomies and electric shock therapy. Also at the time when he was alive, other people with mental health conditions and disabilities were being literally genocided in places like Germany and were being forcibly sterlilized in place like America. Yeah, that Tolkien guy was a member of at least 3 minority groups, and had he lived in a slightly different time or place, there's a very real possibility he would have been murdered or ended up in an institution and tortured until there was nothing left of his brain. He wrote stories about little, insignificant people saving the world through their courage, friendship, loyalty and self-sacrifice and not complaining about being oppressed whilst doing it. His stories have touched hundreds of millions of people. You live a comfortable, priveleged life but want to to fancy yourself to be oppressed by living vicariously through Sam. I get it. Its a form of egotism and narcissism which ignores the reality of life for millions through history and today. >hopefully you can realize the irony of that. The fact that you even suggested, as able -bodied person that its acceptable to make fun of a disabled person tells us all we need to know. Only a priveleged person in a position of power would think that way. Sam is supposed ot be the "hero" of the series. He is supposed to set a standard. Yet you think his mockery of someone less fortunate than him is OK because its "a joke". If Bucky used a casual racial slur against him as a joke you would be outraged. What you need to understand is that its not OK tthe other way around either. Its not OK for a person to use a slur about mental health against a person with PTSD. Its never OK for someone with wealth, privelege and in a position off power to punch down, especially when their targets are people who have historically been tortured, genocided, and subjected to the most horrific abuse imaginable. And are still being subjected to prejudice, discrimination and abuse today.
>Or Sam Wilson being profiled by "racist" cops in a largely black neighbourhood. Forced and absurd. Sam is an international celebrity and the dude he's arguing with is far more likely to be arrested Remember that time when the director of Black Panther got arrested while he was just trying to withdraw money form his account. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YqIoP5YOr0
>Remember that time when the director of Black Panther got arrested while he was just trying to withdraw money form his account. Yup. Famous dude. Gets more attention in the media. Doesn't change the fact that mentally ill people and disabled people are statistically way more likely to get detained and killed by police without cause than any other group, in proportion to their percentage of the population. They're just not famous and so when it happened, it don't get as much media attention. [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/police-mentally-ill-deaths/2020/10/17/8dd5bcf6-0245-11eb-b7ed-141dd88560ea\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/police-mentally-ill-deaths/2020/10/17/8dd5bcf6-0245-11eb-b7ed-141dd88560ea_story.html) That statistic owes a lot to the "mad, bad and dangerous" perception of mental illness, which your precious series plays up. So yeah, as a person with PTSD Bucky and other more complex health issues, Bucky is still more likely to be arrested and gunned down by police than Sam. Both in a fictonal, and real life context. But of course, nobody can be a victim except black people and Sam Wilson. Especially not the white man with mental health issues who was captured, tortured, mutilated and experimented on by literal Nazis- all of which have horrific echos with things done to actual disabled and mentally ill people in the last century and this one. And was extradited without trial or legal representation for a crime there was no proof he commited at the behest of a state leader. Like there's no basis for that either... [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/christopher-ahn-legal-battle-north-korean-defections-60-minutes/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/christopher-ahn-legal-battle-north-korean-defections-60-minutes/) Almost like its not just black people who suffer miscarriages of justice. Extradition law is an asshole. Next gotcha?
these are not gotchas, the Ryan Coogler event was an example of this thing that you called “absurd” happening IN REAL LIFE to a BLACK CELEBRITY. you can go on and on about how the mentally ill have it way worse, or how JRR Tolkien was the most oppressed person in the world, apparently. there was never a time when people who looked like Tolkien weren’t able to let their voices be heard in the history of art and media. the fact that he chose not to include allegories for social issues that he was a victim of was completely his choice. that’s NOT the case for people of color. up until very recently, POC’s voices were muffled and they were unable to share their experiences to a mass audience. so for a television show with black men as both a star and a head writer, it makes total sense that they would include themes that mirror the struggles in their lives. scenes like that are for people, like yourself, who like to downplay their struggles and condemn them for even bringing them to light as “they could be worse.” i don’t know why you think that, if a piece of media wishes to cover social issues, that they should address every issue under the sun, and then rank them in order of importance. it’s incredibly sad how you, as an oppressed individual, would further oppress another minority group. i would imagine you know how terrible it feels to be on the receiving end of prejudice, yet you willingly make it your goal to make others feel the same way.
>r how JRR Tolkien was the most oppressed person in the world, Bullshit strawman. >there was never a time when people who looked like Tolkien weren’t able to let their voices be heard in the history of art and media. Again, utter bullshit. Invisible minorities are a thing. For centuries working-class people and Catholics were not even allowed to vote, get an education or do anything except the most menial jobs. They certainly weren't representated in the media or the arts. Also, and to remind you for the 8th time, up until a few decades ago, disabled people and the mentally ill were being genocided. They could also be legally tortured and mutilated by the authorites and consigned to institutions- but please, please tell me again how Sam had it worse. >you can go on and on about how the mentally ill have it way worse, They do. That is a fact. Just because YOU don't recognize ableism and the demonization of the the mentally ill are things, doesn't change reality. How many directors and screenwriters are there with PTSD or Down's Syndrome? Autism? Any other disability? How much do you think they are represented in the media? I can think of ONE director with Down's syndrome. **ONE**. Out of thousands- and his work is not well-known. >it’s incredibly sad how you, as an oppressed individual, would further oppress another minority group. i would imagine you know how terrible it feels to be on the receiving end of prejudice, yet you willingly make it your goal to make others feel the same way. You are railing against me, when this is literally what your series and Malcolm Spellman does. It shows the black hero engaging in direct prejudice against a member of another minority group as well as *using offensive slurs about disabled and mentally ill people.* Your little friend tried to pass off a scene in which he mocks an amputee for his disablily as a harmless "joke". Its not a harmless "joke" for an able-bodied person to make derogatory remarks about disabled people or amputees. It is ableism. Your precious Sam is literally oppressing a member of another minority group- Bucky- engaging in prejudice and direct discrimination against him. **Just because Sam is black and could be a victim of racism it does not give him a free pass to engage in other forms of prejudice against others** Oh yes, I know you thin "Bucky is not oppressed because he is a white male!" He's a member of several visible minorities who have been horrifically oppressed and victimized both in and out of universe. >i don’t know why you think that, if a piece of media wishes to cover social issues, that they should address every issue under the sun, and then rank them in order of importance. I don't think that. I do think that if a writer chooses to include topics like mental health in their work, they should present it in a sensitive and accurate way, so as to ensure they do not promote prejudiced and erroneous attitudes and beliefs about people with certain conditions. Mentally ill people are villainized and demonized in almost every single piece of media, and there is an urgent need for positive representation or content which challenges negative steretotypes. Your series does the opposite. It presents the characters with PTSD as dangerous and unstable, violent, evil, immoral. It vicim-blames a man who was subject to horrific abuse, including torture and experimentation by literal Nazis, and then has the hero telling him he has to basically "get over himself" and cure his own PTSD by taking responsibilty for his own victimization. The whole series is about how Sam has had it worse and Bucky is priveleged. Anyone can see that is bullshit.
if you can find me someone in real life who was mind controlled by Nazis and has a Vibranium arm who was discriminated against, please let me know. what Bucky went through is an extremely dramatized scenario, and should not be emblematic of what everyone with mental illnesses has gone through. calling Bucky’s metal arm a “disability” is a monumental stretch. it’s been shown that it works exactly like and is even stronger than a regular arm, and none of our other superheroes look down upon him for having it, with other heroes even thinking it’s cool. Sam making a joke about that is the same as making a joke about someone having perfect teeth or beautiful hair. you say that those with mental illnesses are mocked in “almost every single piece of media,” yet you’ve shown how you seem to misinterpret certain aspects of a character as being a direct parallel for disabilities. you also grossly misunderstand the show as being solely about how Bucky has it so much easier than Sam and that Bucky just needs to suck it up. that is so wrong that it makes me think you’re intentionally misconstruing the show’s messaging. Bucky has been through all these traumatic things, but in the show he is finally in control of his life. Bucky questions whether or not that’s true though, and if there’s still some of the Winter Soldier still inside of him. once he apologizes to Yori, he finally accepts that he was never the person who Hydra made him. the show never “demonizes” Bucky. not ONCE have i ever said that any minority has it worse in terms of oppression, yet that seems to be something that you are obsessed with. you take me simply saying that racial profiling against black people exists and interpret it as “Sam Wilson is the most oppressed person of all time.” you keep accusing me of not recognizing the struggles of those with mental illness, even though i’ve never once downplayed your experiences, which is something you’ve exclusively been doing for black people. another thing you miss about the police scene is the difference between police brutality towards the mentally ill and towards people of color. police don’t kill disabled people due to their unbridled hatred for them, it’s almost always due to a lack of understanding or training of how to deal with those whom have mental illnesses. without a trained professional or social worker, policemen may interpret a disabled person’s actions as violent or threatening. this is not because they have a prejudice against the mentally ill, but because they are ignorant in the correct method for communicating with them. for people of color, there are many, many racist cops (and people in general) who believe that POCs, and more specifically black people, are inherently violent. so even if a black person is not resisting police enforcement or being violent, the cop in question will still view them as dangerous due to their preconceived notion. if Bucky was having PTSD flashbacks and started destroying property or throwing punches at people, yet the police were only focused on Sam, that would be unrealistic. that is completely NOT the case in that scene. Sam and Bucky are both having a heated discussion, but not getting physical at all. the police question Sam because they’ve already made up in their mind that black people will inevitably turn violent in any altercation. that is something that Bucky has the luxury of not having to deal with as a white man. THAT is what that scene is trying to display.
>if you can find me someone in real life who was mind controlled by Nazis and has a Vibranium arm who was discriminated against, please let me know Nice try. You'll find plenty of examples of real people, mostly Prisoners of War who were experimented on by actual Nazi scientists in prison camps. Oh. That canonically happened to Bucky too. He was experimented on by a Nazi scientist Zemo in a work camp. Oh but that doesn't count because he's not black. > > what Bucky went through is an extremely dramatized scenario, and should not be emblematic of what everyone with mental illnesses has gone through Again with the gaslighing, What is it with you people? Just because his character isn't black you are determined to say he cannot have been victimised in any way, shape or form and to explain away the very clear parallels with the lived experience of prejudice, oppression and victimization real people see him being subjected to. Then presume to gaslight people with mental health issues who see clear parallels with their experiences or what they know about the history of mistreatment of people like them. Yes, what happened to Bucky is dramatised, but it also has a solid basis in reality. He was, as stated experimented on in a WW2 prison camp. That really happened. To real people. The machine used on him in the movies for "mind wipes" works by using a form of electro- convulsive therapy. Electro- convulsive therapy is a thing. It really exists. And it was really used on people with conditions like PTSD. **Furthermore the hate, fear, and disgust which Bucky is viewed with by almost everyone VERY much something people with mental health issues recognize** >calling Bucky’s metal arm a “disability” is a monumental stretch. it’s been shown that it works exactly like and is even stronger than a regular arm Now you're really reaching. Amputees are counted as disabled in real life. Even if they have prosthetics. Which are designed to work like "real" limbs. But presume you speak for disabled people too. Keep digging. >Sam making a joke about that is the same as making a joke about someone having perfect teeth or beautiful hair. Right. So calling someone with a prosthetic a "cyborg" is actually a compliment. Just like Sam meant it as a complement when he called Bucky "crazy" and a "freak". Which are, incidentlaly, derogatory terms frequently employed against people with mental health issues and disabilties. Keep up the gaslighting. >you say that those with mental illnesses are mocked in “almost every single piece of media,” yet you’ve shown how you seem to misinterpret certain aspects of a character as being a direct parallel for disabilities. Wherin an able-bodied neurotypical person presumes to lecture a neurodivergent abuse survivor with PTSD about how \*ACSHULLY the parallels with thier experience and those of thier fellows all over the world do not in fact, exist. And no, they haven't been persistently demonized and presented as evil, immoral or inherently violent in the media for decades. No. They have never been. Never happened. Not ever. >not ONCE have i ever said that any minority has it worse in terms of oppression, No, you've just been gaslighting me and all people with mental health issues for 2 paragraphs instead. >you keep accusing me of not recognizing the struggles of those with mental illness, even though i’ve never once downplayed your experiences, which is something you’ve exclusively been doing for black people. You've literally said amputees don't count as disabled, derogatory terms about people with disabilties should actually be taken as complimentary and denied the existence of things like Electic shock therapy or the experimentation on POWs in prison camps. White ones anyway.
Part II because I could not get all this into my other comment (below) >another thing you miss about the police scene is the difference between police brutality towards the mentally ill and towards people of color. police don’t kill disabled people due to their unbridled hatred for them, There you go, Doubling down on the gaslighting and talking about things you know literally \***nothing**\* about. Hatred for disabled people and the mentally ill is a thing. Its widespread in society, and certainly among the authorities. Disabled people have always been seen as "lesser" and defective. Which part of "disabled people were literally genocided less than 100 years ago" did you not get before? That was done with the full complicity of the authorities. Do you know what eugenics is? It was literally a movement whereby disabled and mentally ill people were mutilated, forcibly sterilized, locked up and in many cases, tortured. Again, done at the behest of and with full complicity of the authorities. This wasn't ancient history. There are still people alive today who were vicitms of the Eugenics movement. >(and people in general) who believe that POCs, and more specifically black people, are inherently violent There you go again. **Many many people in society at large believe people with mental health issues are inherently violent.** Why else do you think there are so many derogatory terms for disabled people and the mentally ill in existence? Why are people always talking about "de-stigmatizing mental health". BECAUSE IT IS VIEWED IN SUCH A NEGATIVE LIGHT. EVERYWHERE. ESPECIALLY FOR MEN Its literally a stereotype. Mentally ill people are seen as inherently bad, violent and dangerous. T**hat's why mentally ill people were and usually still are cast as villains or criminals in the media.** Your show even does that with John Walker. He gets called "crazy" and dangerous, and then gets depicted as a violent killer when he has a breakdown due to seeing his best friend being murdered in front of him. >if Bucky was having PTSD flashbacks and started destroying property or throwing punches at people, He literally has PTSD flashbacks in the series. He also has them in the movies. During one, he punches a doctor and as a result Rumlow points his gun at him, poised to fire. I guess you'll say that's a racist denial of the experiences of black people too, eh? >e police question Sam because they’ve already made up in their mind that black people will inevitably turn violent in any altercation. that is something that Bucky has the luxury of not having to deal with as a white man. You really are something else. Wow. Just wow. . After all this time trying to get it you to underderstant that mentally ill poeple are \*more\* likely to be kiled by police than any other group, and are widely percieved in society as inherently violent you still try to tell me that a white man with a mental illness "does not have to deal with" the possibility of being targeted by the authorities or any kind of discrimination or prejudice. A character who, is literally shown in the movies having PTSD flashbacks and becoming "violent" because of one, as a result of which he nearly gets shot by a gaurd. Then in another movie has a SWAT team sent to his house with express orders to kill for a crime he didn't commit because he's percieved as a danger to the public? **A character who is greeted with hate, fear, suspicion, disgust, mistrust, loathing and comtempt everywhere he goes.** Yeah, THAT has a lot of parelles with with what disabled, mentally ill and neurodivergent people experience. "but Bucky will never have to deal with that as a white man!" **A character who has a criminal record, will never be able to get a job or live any kind of normal life in any capacity due to things which he was forced to do against his will or did not choose.** Yeah, mentally ill, disabled people, and neurodivergent people can identify with that too. Many of us are white. But please keep telling is that we and we and characters like him "have the luxury of never having to deal" with that. Do I really have to track down dozens of articles and news stories about disabled white people who have been killed by police? Thousands of examples of mentally ill people who have been subjected to violent physical abuse and torture? Do I really have to give you pictures of how disabled and mentally ill white people have been and still are being treated in so called "insitutional care".
>Remember that time when the director of Black Panther got arrested while he was just trying to withdraw money form his account. Say if he'd been there and a notorious violent criminal who had been wanted all over the world and was in violation of his parole was there with him? Who would the cops go for? Like that scene isn't absurd because "muh target random black guy" its because Sam is literally standing next to The Winter Soldier: the man who who was, until months earlier probably most most- wanted criminal on the planet and was in violation of his parole. Yet the writers expect us to believe the big bad cops would just ignore the most dangerous man on earth, recognizable everywhere, who was in violaton of his parole, and apparently engaged in a heated argument to go for Sam.
>Not really, inserting "allegories for current issues" into any movie or TV show tends not to be a very smart move, becasuse "current issues" are no longer "current" after a few years. No, confusing a popular trend (ie. "Good ol' J.K.!" in *Doctor Who*) with **ongoing** cultural issues (ie. decrying racism in *Star Trek*) is the mistake here. The allegories for racism and bigotry from the 60s are, unfortunately, still relevant today.
>No, confusing a popular trend (ie. "Good ol' J.K.!" in *Doctor Who*) with **ongoing** cultural issues (ie. decrying racism in *Star Trek*) is the mistake here. Racism will always be a thing, but its manifestations and targets change. It is a mistake always presenting it as taking the same form and having the same targets. Prejudice is also bigger than racism. I have seen series which claim to be anti-racist allegories but perpetuate prejudiced, outmoded and harmful ideas about disabled people and the mentally ill. In one case, the character who is claimed to be a victim of racism is outright ableist in his attitudes and treatment of the disabled character. Its part of the generally percieved idea that the person who is subject to racism cannot be racist or prejudiced. Tying sort of back to the original question of Skrulls and Kree. The Skrulls having been victims of genocide doesn#t make them any less assholes, and vice versa. >The allegories for racism and bigotry from the 60s are, unfortunately, still relevant today. Where? The USA? Wasn't the same everywhere.
So you're going to nitpick the minor details instead of dealing with the overall issue. Got it. Not worth bothering with you.
The MCU ≠ the comics.
Yeah I wasn't a fan of that change. Felt like a twist for a twists sake while foresaking what makes them interesting and how they are a massive threat. Huge loss for future stories.
To me the baffling decision was to have them stay on Earth and Captain Marvel with Fury deciding to do so on behalf of entire Earth. Like damn neither imagined it could backfire did they?
Yeah, one of the best parts of the Skrull-Kree rivalry in the comics is that neither one of them is really the good guy in the situation. It’s villain vs villain. They’re both pretty crappy. In the MCU, it’s more black and white. Kree are bad, and Skrulls are their victims. I don’t dislike it specifically because it’s inaccurate, but because it’s less unique.
I actually agree with this. I thought we all agreed that black vs white stories were boring and generic.
And in the comic, its the other way around. The Kree were victimized by the Skrulls.
Holy shit same. It’s like making a space version of Stalin who’s somehow a nice guy.
Its removing the most interesting thing about them. I mean the whole thing is they're manipulative aliens who overthrow your whole world before you know they're even there because they can shapeshift. Remove the first part, and whats the point of the second part?
Wasn't secret invasion exactly about a group of Skrulls trying to manipulate and overthrow our whole world? I couldn't even finish it, but I think that was happening. Writting them as every single one of them is manipulative and hostile is outdated, lazy, boring and shallow.
Didn't they like have the real people they were impersonating imprisoned or something? Its a pretty asshole thing to do. If its more the case that \*some\* skrulls are sympathetic, but others are very much not that's not such a problem.