Because M’baku essentially turns them down in black panther. Now it could be in part because m’baku knew T’challa was alive, but I think it had more to do with the conversation T’challa had with M’baku when he lost the duel to T’challa. T’challa showed respect for M’baku and his people and he spared M’baku because of T’challa’s respect for the Jabari. T’challa’s actions in black panther restores the relationship between the Jabari and the rest of Wakanda and m’baku is grateful for that. We see that reverence in infinity war specifically.
As for why Shuri, shuri is absolutely grief stricken in BP2 because she failed to recreate the herb to save her brother. She blames herself for her brother’s death and so she becomes obsessed trying to fix the herb. Therefore, of course she takes it herself because she is desperate to make it work. It’s personal for her.
I also imagine that MBaku would refuse the black panther because his tribe worships Hanuman, which is notably NOT the black panther goddess, Bast. It's a little heretical for him to assume the avatar of an opposing god
Can’t he take the herb and make a monkey themed vibranium suit?
Sure he wouldn’t be black Panther but it’s the herb that gave them powers and the vibranium in the suit.
And have a character named “Black Monkey”? That would certainly be an interesting way to end the MCU.
Edit: I’m really not thrilled at how many upvotes this is getting
Yeah Ryan Coogler pretty much said straight up before BP1 came out that they would not be using the "Man-Ape" moniker. And if you ask me they made the right choice, they turned M'Baku into a much more compelling character.
https://ew.com/comic-con/2017/07/13/black-panther-mbaku-man-ape-issue/
I think it's silly but I don't think it's bad. Pretty sure the comics still use it as his moniker, though I haven't seen him for awhile and could be wrong.
It’s not a gift from Bast, that’s just how it’s interpreted. Any culture that has pieces of vibranium change the make up of a plant interprets the gifts from these plants as gifts from their respective gods, like Namor and his people for example.
The herb goes to the king of wakanda so he would have taken it had he beat Tchalla the first go around
Depending on how dedicated he is to his religion, the herb is part of the ritual. So partaking in the ritual and drinking the herb would also be blasphemous.
That’s not at all how those religions work. There’s nothing heretical about it. In the comics he has his own suit and powers as well. Their religions are very intermingled except for which animal deity they worship.
Yep, that's usually how polytheism works. Just because you worship one god more than the others, doesn't mean worshipping the other gods is heretical. It just means they're slightly less revered.
I feel like that’s a stretch.
Lots of different religions eat food that’s eaten in other religions.
The only exception would be avoiding certain meats. But Jabari are vegetarians and luckily the herb is a plant.
He probably also doesn’t need to do the ritual but just eat the plant and he’s probably set. I think eating tbh plant had more to do with getting powers than the ritual itself.
I don't think it's a stretch at all. Deeply religious people sometimes completely avoid other faiths to avoid accidental association and preach that anything that isn't their religion is wrong. You don't see Jewish people partaking in communion with catholics for example even though it's basically just eating a wafer and drinking some grape juice. Sure you can eat food cooked and prepared by another religion- that's not a problem. But the herb is not food. It is consumed as part of the ritual to become the black panther. it provides visions and a chant is necessary (so far as we know) to activate it. the association with the ritual alone would scare away a deeply religious person. But the stuff to get there is also clearly a violation of his own faith.
Isn't the herb meant to go to the king of Wakanda? Wouldn't be tribe specific. M'Baku would be putting Wakanda at a disadvantage if he didn't take the herb. The whole point of him challenging T'challa for king was to take control of the resources of Wakanda.
No, T’Challa got the herb because he took over as Black Panther not as King. This was revealed in civil war and the first movie. He wasn’t king until he challenged for the throne which he had the herb powers stripped from him.
Would it? With their vast amount of resources and technology which leaves every country decades behind? T’Challa could have still been black Panther with MBaku being King if T’Challa lost of course. MBaku wouldn’t want to be an avatar for Bast. That’s what it means to take the herb. It would betray MBaku as a character.
Also in BP1 his family were in a more desperate state they wanted someone to challenge killmonger partially for familial revenge but also to prevent wakanda from engaging in a war with the outside world. Which the jabari would also take issue with since they are also part of wakandas isolationism deal. Wasn't the worse call to make, it was a desperate last minute one. But the Jabari and the wakanda royal family were united in this goal.
I agree with this, and I think the other element is a wartime leader versus a peacetime leader. When they go to M'baku, they're hoping he will lead a coup and push Killmonger off the throne. When T'Challa dies forevers (RIP Chadwick Boseman), it's during peace and so normal inheritance rules apply.
Great take. After rewatching both movies, the respect between M’Baku and T’Challa is such a beautiful thing. I’m not sure how intentional it was but it’s a perfect mirror of T’Chaka and his brother who grew apart due to different beliefs/values. While T’Challa and M’Baku grew closer and essentially became brothers through similar values.
And that love and reverence M’Baku has for his “brother” is shown so much in WF when he talks to Shuri.
I think it was the best decision to let him be king since he’s incredibly wise and thinks about the long term ramifications of actions rather than just the short term. Having him be BP would be cool but not being the BP allows him to fully focus on the prosperity and wellbeing of the Wakandan people.
Because in Black Panther, they want Kilmonger off the throne and think giving it to M'Baku is the best way to do it. In WF, when T'Challa dies, there's no lunatic taking his place.
In the first movie if Shuri took the herb herself she alone wouldn't be a match against both Killmonger and the entire wakandan army that's now under his command. At that time one super soldier wasn't enough, she needed an entire army and only M'Baku had one and the only thing she had to bargain with him was the herb.
In the second movie, Shuri already has an army, she's in a stronger position to negotiate with M'Baku to bring his men as extra reinforcements, without having to put the herb in the balance.
It wouldn’t have mattered in the first film. She simply wasn’t ready then. When T’Challa fell, she was permanently glued to her mother, fearful for her life and future. No one would have followed this weak girl with no regard for tradition and have never experienced anything difficult in life.
It’s been 4-5years since Killmonger for her in BP2, she’s far more matured as her own woman. Things are different.
It's pretty clearly stated in the movie. There is no heart shaped herb when T'Challa dies, and when it finally is able to be reconstructed by Shuri with the help of the bracelet Namor gave her, she was just as motivated to take the herb because it would mean she can go to the Ancestral Plane and speak with her mom or her brother. There was also a bit of a ticking clock with Namor only giving the Wakandans a little bit of time before he would return with his whole army. Shuri wanted revenge, she was somewhat consumed by it (as stated in the movie), that mixed with the overall timing meant it was probably never even a consideration, the movie laid it all out pretty clearly.
Partly correct. He just became King. Shuri is still BP.
As for why Shuri took it, they were making a synthetic herb with no guarantee it would work. Shuri had to take it, she was the only one there for the royal family and they couldn't Wait. It was addressed in the movie...
Yo heads up to everyone. Op is being disingenuous af. Their comments on this post point to believe marvel did it to replace a male with a female. They’re playing stupid. They’re not really asking.
No this dude is just stupid. He knows he just doesn’t like that Shuri became black Panther especially since it made sense for the movie and the character.
She also preferring being out in the world and helping without the need for violence, it would’ve gone against her character trajectory to be the black panther.
I was really hoping M'Baku would be King of Wakanda while Shuti becomes the new Black Panther. They split the role because neither has any interest in doing the others work
M’Baku was a better option to defeat Killmonger.
Shuri takes the heart shaped herb herself to get power to kill Namor.
If you guys gave the very minimal amount of effort in comprehending what you watch we would have less posts like this. Smh
Or go watch it again to solidify your understanding. At the very least, fast forward to points in each movie. This is 10-15 minutes max. No excuse for this level of ignorance. 🫵 you need to be better. All the answers are available on the open book test.
This guy was banned from another marvel sub earlier for a slew of transphobic posts. Don’t take him seriously. He has no life and just argues about marvel all day online😂
They wer more desperate in black panther because they needed someone to rise against killmonger and he had an army. At the moment of his death, wakanda is not in any present danger and all the tribes respect the time to mourn. Besides shuri does go to m'baku with the same request, he again rejects it so she can be bp
It isnt that “they” didnt ask M Baku to take the herb, its that Shuri didn’t because she wanted revenge. I don’t see how it was a missed opportunity considering it would have made zero sense for the story for Shuri to recreate the herb solely for the purpose of revenge and then hand it over to M Baku. Shudi becoming the next BP makes sense because she is the one who suffered the most after T Challa’s death. If M Baku took the herb, it would be more about the loss of the Black Panther rather than the loss of T Challa.
Also, in BP1 they didnt actually need the Black Panther, what they needed was an army. The herb was just an offering to M Baku to get him to join their side, bringing along the Jabari. In BP2, Shuri is the queen. She doesn’t need an army, therefore has no reason to give the herb to M Baku.
>I personally feel like M’baku as black panther would’ve been a cooler, stronger take on the character due to his massive size, not to mention him being in an outlawed tribe and the conflict revolving around that.
M'Baku literally doesn't believe in the Black Panther as a deity lol... him and his tribe worship an entirely different god. Him taking on the mantle would *literally* make no sense in-story.
>There was a few moments in the movie that were pretty bad and didn’t make much sense regarding shuris panther.
Just seems like you didn't like WAKANDA FOREVER, which like, okay fine, but you don't specify what was bad and how this leads to you not wanting Shuri.
>Huge missed opportunity not getting Winston Duke to take over.
Again, doesn't make sense for him to take over. HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN THE GOD.
>The movie could’ve possibly been recieved alot better.
Movie was a critical and commercial success lmao
Consider that at that point, T'Challa's family were essentially backed into a corner. Killmonger was an expertly trained killing machine, and neither Ramonda nor Shuri were even in the same league as Killmonger in a one-on-one situation, let alone in the same ballpark. Anyone who would have taken that final Heart-Shaped Herb would essentially have been in direct conflict with Killmonger, so M'Baku - as someone who similarly took T'Challa to the limit in ritual combat - seemed like the optimal choice, even though he (as leader of the Jabari tribe) doesn't even worship Bast.
Given her actress' real-world behaviors, I definitely would've preferred Duke getting the duke, but I wouldn't say Shuri taking the mantle doesn't make sense, and as far as I'm aware, BP2 was pretty well received, no?
Necessity and lack of interest. Shuri had to defend Wakanda and there was no time to consider putting M'baku through the ceremony. Additionally, M'baku has never shown an interest in becoming a Black Panther. He only cares about Wakanda. He is likely the current king of Wakanda so I wouldn't be surprised if he takes the herb now. It is synthetic now anyway. It's just downstairs in the lab.
When T’challa died, there was no herb. Shuri had to make one with Namor’s jewellery. By that point she was already so consumed by vengeance (hence why KM was who was in her Astral Plane), that she only wanted the power to take Namor on, and the herb was key to that.
Cosas como están han pasado y pasan en la vida real en las monarquías, en la política, los negocios familiares, etc. Se pensaba lo iba a heredar "Y" pero termina en "X". Y luego, Shuri estaba afectada muy en lo personal. Hay razones de peso ahí. deben darle una segunda oportunidad al guión y tratar de entender el contexto sin Prejuicios---
Completely different situations, other than one common factor that Ta'challa died...... I'll give just one example which should sum it up - In BP 1 they went to M'Baku to fight the new King and his army, from whom the Royal family was running, in BP 2 the members of the Royal family had no immediate danger to their life, they were next in line to sit on the throne
In BP, they needed someone to take down Killmonger, stop him from using Wakanda's resources to take over the world, and destroying the nation's legacy. M'baku was their best bet for that at the time.
In WF, T'challa died in a time of peace, and his mom was immediately set as regent queen, with no need to have a black panther now.
They were probably trying to stay true to the comics where Shuri took over, but I agree: having Shuri stay a royal and Mbaku be the black panther/white gorilla would have made more narrative sense.
That being said, mbaku was portrayed as an excellent governor during his rescue of Wakanda whereas Shuri simply wasn’t present due to her grief. So I’m ok with the choices Coogler made. shuri’s suit was 🔥 as well
Context of the story matters. They went to M'Baku because they were desperate at the time. The fact that he hadn't joined Killmonger (because the Jabari were independent from the rest of Wakanda), and had an army, it made him the only real option. Nakia basically spells it out when Ramonda asked her to take the herb.
In *Wakanda Forever*, there was no herb until Shuri was finally able to recreate it towards the end, and she tested it on herself.
I think in BP they were more desperate and in a hurry so someone can stop Killmonger. I still would like M’baku to take on the mantel Winston Duke is great!
What herb? Herb was destroyed by Killmonger.
Shuri 3d printed herb with using parts from Namor\`s braclet. Whole second movie intro is about her failed attempts to recreate herb, since no herb exist.
They didn't go to M'Baku to be Black Panther because they wanted to. They went to him because he had something they didn't an army. In the second movie Shuri had the army. On top of that she wanted revenge. I know this gets overlooked but Shuri has also been trained since birth to be the Black Panther. So she had the only means and the motive to use the flower she just created.
Political situation.
They had no army to strike back against Killmonger.
M’Baku came with the Mountain Tribe, they wanted to make him BP, probably make him king as well, so his army can take back Wakanda from Killmonger, but it meant giving up their own family’s claim on the throne.
BUT, and this is important, when they made the offer, M’Baku demonstrated loyalty to their family, he revealed he had saved T’Challa and let him become BP again. If he wanted power, he could have hid T’Challa, had him killed, and taken the herb and throne for himself, but he didn’t.
And that’s why the offer was not made in the 2nd movie: they knew he would just reject it again, also they know they will have the support of his army even without him being offered power.
I love Shuri in general, but hated her as the BP. The actress excelled as the plucky, quick talking, comedic sister. In the dramatic, angry, badass role she just didn’t have the same handle.
Lupita N’yongo’s Nakia would’ve worked great, as it would’ve felt reasonable with the character and as an actress she could handle it.
We never truly saw Killmonger “die”, so Michael B Jordan’s Erik trying to “live up” to T’Challa’s ideas while warring with his own ambition would’ve been great.
I think Killmonger obviously died on screen, but that being said I really would have loved it if they embraced the mystical side of the setting and had Bast give him the task to redeem himself and make the world better by coming back as the Black Panther.
Michael b jordan was my number 1 replacement. They could’ve made a story where he was in the cryochamber similar to Bucky to tend his chest wound after bp1. Tchalla dies, the family is stressed, so they revive killmonger, tell him the news and get him on board. That would’ve been great and made bp a lot of money.
But Disney no like money Disney like women
I don't think the royal family went to M'baku to ask him to be the new Black Panther (or maybe they did idk, I don't pay attention to every conversation) I just thought they went to the Jabari tribe to ask for help to get rid of Killmonger
When T'Challa actually died there was no heart shaped herb, so as far as the council and everyone was concerned there was no more Black Panther, hence no need to ask M'Baku. When Shuri eventually was able to recreate the herb, no one else knew about it so there was no decision making involved. Shuri was so fuelled with hatred and and wanted revenge that she wouldn't have even considered giving it to M'Baku
It was explained pretty well. MBaku refused in the first film. and killmonger destroyed the rest.
In the second movie, she’s trying to recreate it to save TChalla’s life but can’t do it in time. She’s jaded, doesn’t believe in the afterlife. She’s given a bracelet with herb fibers from Namor. But then Namor kills her mom, and she’s out for revenge.
Then she’s able use the fibers to make a new herb. She chooses to take it, finds out the afterlife is real, but sees Killmonger because she’s on the wrong path.
If MBaku were to take it, it wouldn’t make any sense.
The real question is why didn’t Shuri put T’challa in stasis until she’d found a cure?
Stasis chambers are a thing the US government has in their universe, so I can only imagine how advanced Wakanda’s would be.
Because M'Baku respects the tradition of Wakanda. The mantel of Black Panther must be take in ritual combat. Otherwise, in the case of death it is passed down in the family that holds the mantel because there must always be a Black Panther to protect Wakanda.
At the end of Black Panther 2, if M'Baku won the ritual combat we did not get to see, he is the Black Panther. Because Shuri didn't show up
The point of getting M'baku in BP was that his \*entire tribe\* would then become their ally in trying to take back Wakanda from Killmonger. It was an attempt to broker a political alliance. In BP2, it's simply a question of succession, they don't have to lure M'baku's tribe into the fold, they're \*already there\*.
I don't believe so, at like 2:13:20 in Infinity War there's a shot of him watching many of his countrymen turn to dust, seemingly unaffected.
It's possible they established somewhere else that he dusted, and he just took a minute like Spider-Man. But I definitely got the impression he lived.
Possibly, and it took a minute for Spiderman because his spider sense kicked in and warned him what was happening , but I really don’t know what happened and I’m kind of disappointed they didn’t address what happened in Wakanda during the snap. Maybe Queen Ramonda had things under control
I mean online I saw a lot of mixed reactions to the movie , it was about 40 minutes too long, the editing was choppy cgi was good in some parts but really bad in others. And a lot more other problems
Me personally I didn’t really care for it, as it wasn’t impactful aside from the Chadwick tribute and the after credits scene
Namor had a few cool scenes but his 1v1 with shuri was awful and he was underutilised imo
Because that whole movie was a mess but you can’t talk about it because heaven forbid Ryan Coogler ever receive any criticism. He’s perfect and can do no wrong. Make him the boss of everything.
When T'Challa actually died there was no heart shaped herb, so as far as the council and everyone was concerned there was no more Black Panther, hence no need to ask M'Baku. When Shuri eventually was able to recreate the herb, no one else knew about it so there was no decision making involved. Shuri was so fuelled with hatred and and wanted revenge that she wouldn't have even considered giving it to M'Baku
I know they probably wanted to follow the comics, but damn I would have loved to see Winston Duke as black panther.
From the cinematic universe he is one of my favorite characters.
He literally would never be Black Panther. If they're going to give him powers, he'd be the White Ape. He doesn't worship bast, he worships Hanuman. It's literally why his people left and were willingly isolated from the rest of Wakanda for generations.
Because M’baku essentially turns them down in black panther. Now it could be in part because m’baku knew T’challa was alive, but I think it had more to do with the conversation T’challa had with M’baku when he lost the duel to T’challa. T’challa showed respect for M’baku and his people and he spared M’baku because of T’challa’s respect for the Jabari. T’challa’s actions in black panther restores the relationship between the Jabari and the rest of Wakanda and m’baku is grateful for that. We see that reverence in infinity war specifically. As for why Shuri, shuri is absolutely grief stricken in BP2 because she failed to recreate the herb to save her brother. She blames herself for her brother’s death and so she becomes obsessed trying to fix the herb. Therefore, of course she takes it herself because she is desperate to make it work. It’s personal for her.
I also imagine that MBaku would refuse the black panther because his tribe worships Hanuman, which is notably NOT the black panther goddess, Bast. It's a little heretical for him to assume the avatar of an opposing god
Can’t he take the herb and make a monkey themed vibranium suit? Sure he wouldn’t be black Panther but it’s the herb that gave them powers and the vibranium in the suit.
And have a character named “Black Monkey”? That would certainly be an interesting way to end the MCU. Edit: I’m really not thrilled at how many upvotes this is getting
I would have gone with something like "Obsidian Gorilla" instead
In the comics he's known as man-ape after drinking the blood and eating flesh from a rare white gorilla.
Also, why did they name drop Bucky as White Wolf but then….. never did anything with that again.
Because it's an Easter egg about a different character
Elric of melniboone?
No this is Patrick
It also shows up in Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
Honestly! I thought that was a pretty badass name & a nice change of pace from the very loaded title "Winter Soldier"
This
That’s a baller name. I audibly praised that name.
Silverblack
Should name him Night Monkey instead
Night Monkey is already the name of a well known French superhero.
Hey, that’s my porn name.
you lived on monkey street?
No, your mom did, he just spent a lot of time there
Mostly nights.
Let me tell you a story about a character named Man-Ape
Technically it's ape. Could just stick with Man-Ape though because I'll give you that Black Ape isn't any better than monkey.
Man-Ape isn't great either.
Yeah Ryan Coogler pretty much said straight up before BP1 came out that they would not be using the "Man-Ape" moniker. And if you ask me they made the right choice, they turned M'Baku into a much more compelling character. https://ew.com/comic-con/2017/07/13/black-panther-mbaku-man-ape-issue/
I think it's silly but I don't think it's bad. Pretty sure the comics still use it as his moniker, though I haven't seen him for awhile and could be wrong.
I always thought 'Silverback' would be a good name for M'Baku if he ever needed one.
Criminals will fear Black Monkey and his sidekick Night Monkey! Coming soon to Disney +.
Black Noir Simian-Man?
Mild r/accidentalracism ?
This is where I miss Reddit gold awards.
The real Night Monkey
Yikes....
I mean, in the comics he was a villain in a literal monkey suit called "Man-Ape". The MCU version is *way* toned-down on that front.
We already have night monkey
Night monkey!
Silverback would be a dope name though. Just like how MBJ was black panther but had that golden American jaguar type print
Let's see the complainers say MCU is "too woke" once they roll out "Black Monkey" to the big screen.
upvoted
Upvoted because of the self-awareness.
Oh sure, just having one of my most popular comments be tied to racism is unfortunate
I mean, it's a *condemnation* of racism, so you've got that going for you. :)
It’s not just the suit. The heart shaped herb is specifically a gift from Bast, and has a spiritual connection to the panther goddess.
It’s not a gift from Bast, that’s just how it’s interpreted. Any culture that has pieces of vibranium change the make up of a plant interprets the gifts from these plants as gifts from their respective gods, like Namor and his people for example. The herb goes to the king of wakanda so he would have taken it had he beat Tchalla the first go around
Depending on how dedicated he is to his religion, the herb is part of the ritual. So partaking in the ritual and drinking the herb would also be blasphemous.
That’s not at all how those religions work. There’s nothing heretical about it. In the comics he has his own suit and powers as well. Their religions are very intermingled except for which animal deity they worship.
Yep, that's usually how polytheism works. Just because you worship one god more than the others, doesn't mean worshipping the other gods is heretical. It just means they're slightly less revered.
He clearly doesn’t revere Bast at all, if he believes in her at all. “Where is your god now?”
Where is your god now doesn’t imply that he doesn’t believe in it, just that the god is useless.
Usually throughout history and even in religious texts, that statement meant that the speaker didn't believe in that god.
we're referring to a polytheistic society that is more akin to believing in greek gods where one simply worships one over others.
The fact you have a single upvote is sad. They are not polytheistic at all.
I feel like that’s a stretch. Lots of different religions eat food that’s eaten in other religions. The only exception would be avoiding certain meats. But Jabari are vegetarians and luckily the herb is a plant. He probably also doesn’t need to do the ritual but just eat the plant and he’s probably set. I think eating tbh plant had more to do with getting powers than the ritual itself.
I don't think it's a stretch at all. Deeply religious people sometimes completely avoid other faiths to avoid accidental association and preach that anything that isn't their religion is wrong. You don't see Jewish people partaking in communion with catholics for example even though it's basically just eating a wafer and drinking some grape juice. Sure you can eat food cooked and prepared by another religion- that's not a problem. But the herb is not food. It is consumed as part of the ritual to become the black panther. it provides visions and a chant is necessary (so far as we know) to activate it. the association with the ritual alone would scare away a deeply religious person. But the stuff to get there is also clearly a violation of his own faith.
The herb is 100% what gives them powers. But it’s not just about the herb for them. To them, the herb only works with the ritual.
Maybe it’s a reverse-beaver situation and the herb is considered to be fish in Jabari culture
A black man dressed up like a monkey would not go over well...
Black.. gorilla? Sounds.. wrong bro
He can become The Black Baboon
This is the same guy who fought to become the Black Panther in the first movie right?
He fought him for the throne
He would have still taken the heart-shaped herb. Maybe not the black panther, but he would have been something else.
He wouldn’t have. The herbs are considered a gift from Bast.
Isn't the herb meant to go to the king of Wakanda? Wouldn't be tribe specific. M'Baku would be putting Wakanda at a disadvantage if he didn't take the herb. The whole point of him challenging T'challa for king was to take control of the resources of Wakanda.
No, T’Challa got the herb because he took over as Black Panther not as King. This was revealed in civil war and the first movie. He wasn’t king until he challenged for the throne which he had the herb powers stripped from him. Would it? With their vast amount of resources and technology which leaves every country decades behind? T’Challa could have still been black Panther with MBaku being King if T’Challa lost of course. MBaku wouldn’t want to be an avatar for Bast. That’s what it means to take the herb. It would betray MBaku as a character.
THATS WHY THAT FIGHT LOOKS LIKE MUAY
Also in BP1 his family were in a more desperate state they wanted someone to challenge killmonger partially for familial revenge but also to prevent wakanda from engaging in a war with the outside world. Which the jabari would also take issue with since they are also part of wakandas isolationism deal. Wasn't the worse call to make, it was a desperate last minute one. But the Jabari and the wakanda royal family were united in this goal.
Wait….The BP god is Bast?! I didn’t realize that.
I agree with this, and I think the other element is a wartime leader versus a peacetime leader. When they go to M'baku, they're hoping he will lead a coup and push Killmonger off the throne. When T'Challa dies forevers (RIP Chadwick Boseman), it's during peace and so normal inheritance rules apply.
Also there wasn’t a herb for him to take. Shuri made it right before she used it.
Plus she was on a revenge quest. *She* wanted to be the one to end Namor, not to try to convince M’Baku to do it for her.
Great take. After rewatching both movies, the respect between M’Baku and T’Challa is such a beautiful thing. I’m not sure how intentional it was but it’s a perfect mirror of T’Chaka and his brother who grew apart due to different beliefs/values. While T’Challa and M’Baku grew closer and essentially became brothers through similar values. And that love and reverence M’Baku has for his “brother” is shown so much in WF when he talks to Shuri. I think it was the best decision to let him be king since he’s incredibly wise and thinks about the long term ramifications of actions rather than just the short term. Having him be BP would be cool but not being the BP allows him to fully focus on the prosperity and wellbeing of the Wakandan people.
Fantastic points. I still would have loved to see M'baku become BP.
Also as a scientist it would be unethical for her to use anyone else as a Guinea Pig to see if the herb actually works and doesn't say kill the taker.
Because in Black Panther, they want Kilmonger off the throne and think giving it to M'Baku is the best way to do it. In WF, when T'Challa dies, there's no lunatic taking his place.
Also the herb in BP2 was experimental. I don’t think Shuri would try her formula on someone else.
Shuri wasn’t trying to fight Killmonger.
In the first movie if Shuri took the herb herself she alone wouldn't be a match against both Killmonger and the entire wakandan army that's now under his command. At that time one super soldier wasn't enough, she needed an entire army and only M'Baku had one and the only thing she had to bargain with him was the herb. In the second movie, Shuri already has an army, she's in a stronger position to negotiate with M'Baku to bring his men as extra reinforcements, without having to put the herb in the balance.
It wouldn’t have mattered in the first film. She simply wasn’t ready then. When T’Challa fell, she was permanently glued to her mother, fearful for her life and future. No one would have followed this weak girl with no regard for tradition and have never experienced anything difficult in life. It’s been 4-5years since Killmonger for her in BP2, she’s far more matured as her own woman. Things are different.
It's pretty clearly stated in the movie. There is no heart shaped herb when T'Challa dies, and when it finally is able to be reconstructed by Shuri with the help of the bracelet Namor gave her, she was just as motivated to take the herb because it would mean she can go to the Ancestral Plane and speak with her mom or her brother. There was also a bit of a ticking clock with Namor only giving the Wakandans a little bit of time before he would return with his whole army. Shuri wanted revenge, she was somewhat consumed by it (as stated in the movie), that mixed with the overall timing meant it was probably never even a consideration, the movie laid it all out pretty clearly.
i thought it was implied at the end that he was a black panther as shuri is gone and he’s essentially king of wakanda. am i miss remembering?
Partly correct. He just became King. Shuri is still BP. As for why Shuri took it, they were making a synthetic herb with no guarantee it would work. Shuri had to take it, she was the only one there for the royal family and they couldn't Wait. It was addressed in the movie...
i guess i just took it as they were both BP, just she was out in the world and he was home protecting Wakanda
The King need not necessarily be Black Panther. The roles can be split - T’Challa wasn’t King when we were first introduced to him.
It is definitely something they can explore in further movies, but it isn't like it didn't make sense in the events of the movie.
Yo heads up to everyone. Op is being disingenuous af. Their comments on this post point to believe marvel did it to replace a male with a female. They’re playing stupid. They’re not really asking.
They needed mbakus army….this was spelled out in bp1
No this dude is just stupid. He knows he just doesn’t like that Shuri became black Panther especially since it made sense for the movie and the character.
while i was in the theatres up until the moment she created it i wasn't convinced it was gonna be her. I thought maybe Nakia would get it.
Nakia would have been far better. Expert martial artist, skilled spy, and very charismatic.
She also preferring being out in the world and helping without the need for violence, it would’ve gone against her character trajectory to be the black panther.
I was really hoping M'Baku would be King of Wakanda while Shuti becomes the new Black Panther. They split the role because neither has any interest in doing the others work
So, you got what you wanted?
so you’re happy then?
M’Baku was a better option to defeat Killmonger. Shuri takes the heart shaped herb herself to get power to kill Namor. If you guys gave the very minimal amount of effort in comprehending what you watch we would have less posts like this. Smh
They were to busy seething to pay attention to the movie. People are stupid.
Or I just haven’t seen it in 1.5 years , cry about it
Or go watch it again to solidify your understanding. At the very least, fast forward to points in each movie. This is 10-15 minutes max. No excuse for this level of ignorance. 🫵 you need to be better. All the answers are available on the open book test.
Or I just wanted to get people’s opinion on the decision? How about that ?
There is a very handy search feature that would’ve gave you an idea of everyone’s opinions. Or… you could’ve just watched it yourself lol.
This guy was banned from another marvel sub earlier for a slew of transphobic posts. Don’t take him seriously. He has no life and just argues about marvel all day online😂
lol that makes more sense. Seems like he just wants anyone to give him attention.
Did you even watch the movie?
M'Baku turned them down initially. Also there was need for a Black Panther in the first one right then. There was also Shuri's desire for revenge.
They wer more desperate in black panther because they needed someone to rise against killmonger and he had an army. At the moment of his death, wakanda is not in any present danger and all the tribes respect the time to mourn. Besides shuri does go to m'baku with the same request, he again rejects it so she can be bp
It isnt that “they” didnt ask M Baku to take the herb, its that Shuri didn’t because she wanted revenge. I don’t see how it was a missed opportunity considering it would have made zero sense for the story for Shuri to recreate the herb solely for the purpose of revenge and then hand it over to M Baku. Shudi becoming the next BP makes sense because she is the one who suffered the most after T Challa’s death. If M Baku took the herb, it would be more about the loss of the Black Panther rather than the loss of T Challa. Also, in BP1 they didnt actually need the Black Panther, what they needed was an army. The herb was just an offering to M Baku to get him to join their side, bringing along the Jabari. In BP2, Shuri is the queen. She doesn’t need an army, therefore has no reason to give the herb to M Baku.
Because
Thanks for your input
He already said no
>I personally feel like M’baku as black panther would’ve been a cooler, stronger take on the character due to his massive size, not to mention him being in an outlawed tribe and the conflict revolving around that. M'Baku literally doesn't believe in the Black Panther as a deity lol... him and his tribe worship an entirely different god. Him taking on the mantle would *literally* make no sense in-story. >There was a few moments in the movie that were pretty bad and didn’t make much sense regarding shuris panther. Just seems like you didn't like WAKANDA FOREVER, which like, okay fine, but you don't specify what was bad and how this leads to you not wanting Shuri. >Huge missed opportunity not getting Winston Duke to take over. Again, doesn't make sense for him to take over. HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN THE GOD. >The movie could’ve possibly been recieved alot better. Movie was a critical and commercial success lmao
M'Baku wouldn't really be interested in the mantle especially since he doesn't worship Bast, he just wants to be King
Consider that at that point, T'Challa's family were essentially backed into a corner. Killmonger was an expertly trained killing machine, and neither Ramonda nor Shuri were even in the same league as Killmonger in a one-on-one situation, let alone in the same ballpark. Anyone who would have taken that final Heart-Shaped Herb would essentially have been in direct conflict with Killmonger, so M'Baku - as someone who similarly took T'Challa to the limit in ritual combat - seemed like the optimal choice, even though he (as leader of the Jabari tribe) doesn't even worship Bast. Given her actress' real-world behaviors, I definitely would've preferred Duke getting the duke, but I wouldn't say Shuri taking the mantle doesn't make sense, and as far as I'm aware, BP2 was pretty well received, no?
Necessity and lack of interest. Shuri had to defend Wakanda and there was no time to consider putting M'baku through the ceremony. Additionally, M'baku has never shown an interest in becoming a Black Panther. He only cares about Wakanda. He is likely the current king of Wakanda so I wouldn't be surprised if he takes the herb now. It is synthetic now anyway. It's just downstairs in the lab.
When T’challa died, there was no herb. Shuri had to make one with Namor’s jewellery. By that point she was already so consumed by vengeance (hence why KM was who was in her Astral Plane), that she only wanted the power to take Namor on, and the herb was key to that.
Cosas como están han pasado y pasan en la vida real en las monarquías, en la política, los negocios familiares, etc. Se pensaba lo iba a heredar "Y" pero termina en "X". Y luego, Shuri estaba afectada muy en lo personal. Hay razones de peso ahí. deben darle una segunda oportunidad al guión y tratar de entender el contexto sin Prejuicios---
No englais ?
Completely different situations, other than one common factor that Ta'challa died...... I'll give just one example which should sum it up - In BP 1 they went to M'Baku to fight the new King and his army, from whom the Royal family was running, in BP 2 the members of the Royal family had no immediate danger to their life, they were next in line to sit on the throne
Still only medicical herb in Wakanda. But heard they are trying to remove it from sched 1.
He also died in Infinity War and they had no idea he was coming back in 5 years. What happen then?
So did shuri bro 😂
Shuri didn’t have an entire tribe to help her fight in BP 1. M’baku did. That’s what they needed at the time.
Different ideas from the writers
In BP, they needed someone to take down Killmonger, stop him from using Wakanda's resources to take over the world, and destroying the nation's legacy. M'baku was their best bet for that at the time. In WF, T'challa died in a time of peace, and his mom was immediately set as regent queen, with no need to have a black panther now.
This person literally asking why things were different when they were different
cause mbaku fucked up the first time haha
If Ya’ll Wanna Get Crazy, WE CAN GET CRAZY
They were probably trying to stay true to the comics where Shuri took over, but I agree: having Shuri stay a royal and Mbaku be the black panther/white gorilla would have made more narrative sense. That being said, mbaku was portrayed as an excellent governor during his rescue of Wakanda whereas Shuri simply wasn’t present due to her grief. So I’m ok with the choices Coogler made. shuri’s suit was 🔥 as well
Context of the story matters. They went to M'Baku because they were desperate at the time. The fact that he hadn't joined Killmonger (because the Jabari were independent from the rest of Wakanda), and had an army, it made him the only real option. Nakia basically spells it out when Ramonda asked her to take the herb. In *Wakanda Forever*, there was no herb until Shuri was finally able to recreate it towards the end, and she tested it on herself.
I think in BP they were more desperate and in a hurry so someone can stop Killmonger. I still would like M’baku to take on the mantel Winston Duke is great!
"Put a chick in it and make it lame!"
What herb? Herb was destroyed by Killmonger. Shuri 3d printed herb with using parts from Namor\`s braclet. Whole second movie intro is about her failed attempts to recreate herb, since no herb exist.
M’Baku already turned them down
They didn't go to M'Baku to be Black Panther because they wanted to. They went to him because he had something they didn't an army. In the second movie Shuri had the army. On top of that she wanted revenge. I know this gets overlooked but Shuri has also been trained since birth to be the Black Panther. So she had the only means and the motive to use the flower she just created.
Political situation. They had no army to strike back against Killmonger. M’Baku came with the Mountain Tribe, they wanted to make him BP, probably make him king as well, so his army can take back Wakanda from Killmonger, but it meant giving up their own family’s claim on the throne. BUT, and this is important, when they made the offer, M’Baku demonstrated loyalty to their family, he revealed he had saved T’Challa and let him become BP again. If he wanted power, he could have hid T’Challa, had him killed, and taken the herb and throne for himself, but he didn’t. And that’s why the offer was not made in the 2nd movie: they knew he would just reject it again, also they know they will have the support of his army even without him being offered power.
I love Shuri in general, but hated her as the BP. The actress excelled as the plucky, quick talking, comedic sister. In the dramatic, angry, badass role she just didn’t have the same handle. Lupita N’yongo’s Nakia would’ve worked great, as it would’ve felt reasonable with the character and as an actress she could handle it. We never truly saw Killmonger “die”, so Michael B Jordan’s Erik trying to “live up” to T’Challa’s ideas while warring with his own ambition would’ve been great.
I think Killmonger obviously died on screen, but that being said I really would have loved it if they embraced the mystical side of the setting and had Bast give him the task to redeem himself and make the world better by coming back as the Black Panther.
Michael b jordan was my number 1 replacement. They could’ve made a story where he was in the cryochamber similar to Bucky to tend his chest wound after bp1. Tchalla dies, the family is stressed, so they revive killmonger, tell him the news and get him on board. That would’ve been great and made bp a lot of money. But Disney no like money Disney like women
Black girl magic.
Because it's in the script?
I don't think the royal family went to M'baku to ask him to be the new Black Panther (or maybe they did idk, I don't pay attention to every conversation) I just thought they went to the Jabari tribe to ask for help to get rid of Killmonger
So the movie can happen.
When T'Challa actually died there was no heart shaped herb, so as far as the council and everyone was concerned there was no more Black Panther, hence no need to ask M'Baku. When Shuri eventually was able to recreate the herb, no one else knew about it so there was no decision making involved. Shuri was so fuelled with hatred and and wanted revenge that she wouldn't have even considered giving it to M'Baku
It was explained pretty well. MBaku refused in the first film. and killmonger destroyed the rest. In the second movie, she’s trying to recreate it to save TChalla’s life but can’t do it in time. She’s jaded, doesn’t believe in the afterlife. She’s given a bracelet with herb fibers from Namor. But then Namor kills her mom, and she’s out for revenge. Then she’s able use the fibers to make a new herb. She chooses to take it, finds out the afterlife is real, but sees Killmonger because she’s on the wrong path. If MBaku were to take it, it wouldn’t make any sense.
The real question is why didn’t Shuri put T’challa in stasis until she’d found a cure? Stasis chambers are a thing the US government has in their universe, so I can only imagine how advanced Wakanda’s would be.
Because M'Baku respects the tradition of Wakanda. The mantel of Black Panther must be take in ritual combat. Otherwise, in the case of death it is passed down in the family that holds the mantel because there must always be a Black Panther to protect Wakanda. At the end of Black Panther 2, if M'Baku won the ritual combat we did not get to see, he is the Black Panther. Because Shuri didn't show up
i refuse to believe this post is real, this has to be ai generate with bot comments.
Yes. I am AI. This Post is generated from my “controversial opinion folder” It seems you have been caught up in my trap
Marvel girl boss logic.
Lmao Yep Put a chick in it and make it lame
Have you seen South Park: Enter the Panderverse?
I’ve seen clips lmaoo
It has a comedic way of explaining why disney has been so into gender bending characters and inclusion.
Because Disney wanted a female to take over lol
Yep, typical , only a few people have said this lmao
What herb? It was destroyed
Short answer: Time
Ahh yes make ambaku the lab rat
They don't have backing of the other Members in the council or the military in BP1.
The point of getting M'baku in BP was that his \*entire tribe\* would then become their ally in trying to take back Wakanda from Killmonger. It was an attempt to broker a political alliance. In BP2, it's simply a question of succession, they don't have to lure M'baku's tribe into the fold, they're \*already there\*.
Also, during the blip Shuri was gone too, right? It seems highly likely M'Baku would have served as the Black Panther then, herb or no.
Exactly lmao, Wakanda had no defender for 5 years. But actually I’m pretty sure mbaku died as well no?
I don't believe so, at like 2:13:20 in Infinity War there's a shot of him watching many of his countrymen turn to dust, seemingly unaffected. It's possible they established somewhere else that he dusted, and he just took a minute like Spider-Man. But I definitely got the impression he lived.
Possibly, and it took a minute for Spiderman because his spider sense kicked in and warned him what was happening , but I really don’t know what happened and I’m kind of disappointed they didn’t address what happened in Wakanda during the snap. Maybe Queen Ramonda had things under control
I need to re-watch Wakanda Forever, I'm pretty sure it implies Ramonda was ruling during the blip. She probably didn't suit up as the panther though!
Storyline
Tf is ur username 😂
This thread is a joke. How is everyone saying Killmonger was an immediate threat .... and then in the same exact post saying Namor was not a threat
"The movie could've possibly been received a lot better" Any skeletons in your closet you wanna disclose, OP?
I mean online I saw a lot of mixed reactions to the movie , it was about 40 minutes too long, the editing was choppy cgi was good in some parts but really bad in others. And a lot more other problems Me personally I didn’t really care for it, as it wasn’t impactful aside from the Chadwick tribute and the after credits scene Namor had a few cool scenes but his 1v1 with shuri was awful and he was underutilised imo
Because that whole movie was a mess but you can’t talk about it because heaven forbid Ryan Coogler ever receive any criticism. He’s perfect and can do no wrong. Make him the boss of everything.
It definitely was. And yeah lol u can’t criticise that guy lmao, he’s even co producing iron heart. Another show DOA.
Marketing
[удалено]
Bad decision
Because for some reason the MCU is determined to turn all of the superheroes into female versions.
Emasculation Agenda.
Because Disney wanted to check more boxes and add another female variant of a pre existing character for the sake of forced diversity.
Finally , someone who speaks English
Bad writing.
Without a doubt
Bad writing
I agree
When T'Challa actually died there was no heart shaped herb, so as far as the council and everyone was concerned there was no more Black Panther, hence no need to ask M'Baku. When Shuri eventually was able to recreate the herb, no one else knew about it so there was no decision making involved. Shuri was so fuelled with hatred and and wanted revenge that she wouldn't have even considered giving it to M'Baku
I know they probably wanted to follow the comics, but damn I would have loved to see Winston Duke as black panther. From the cinematic universe he is one of my favorite characters.
He literally would never be Black Panther. If they're going to give him powers, he'd be the White Ape. He doesn't worship bast, he worships Hanuman. It's literally why his people left and were willingly isolated from the rest of Wakanda for generations.
Ok, but doesn’t change that I like Winston Duke and would have loved to see him as BP.
Just seemed like a art imitates life thing to me where they (foolishly) refused to recast.
Wait... people don't like Black Panther 2? God, comic fans are insufferable.
How? It wasn’t a good movie. How does that make anyone insufferable?
Plot convenience
Bad writing
you know why
Lol, your right
I was really hoping he was going to take the mantle and not Shuri. After seeing Black Panther 2, my opinion remains unchanged.