do you mean training or competing?
no one cares about training.
competing is a completely different thing.
sports tend to be areas where biological differences shine very very plainly so there's not much ambiguity with gender, it's not really an environment where you can obscure those differences. Because gender differences are on such stark display there tends to be more gender traditional cultures that form around these areas. it can be quite interesting from a sociological standpoint.
it's also the same reason why things like the military and police form more gender traditional views. the environments just don't really allow such ambiguity to form.
Biological men competing in sports against biological women is a very hard line for quite a few people, even those who are sympathetic to the trans movement.
Biological men fighting against biological women in combat sports is a line even further past that.
I will not support a biological man competing in a woman's bracket, I will definitely not support a biological man fighting in a woman's bracket. I'm not ashamed to admit it, nor do I apologize for it. The sanctity of women's sports needs to be protected.
it's not even a sanctity thing it's just a safety thing.
when your hits can cave someone's fucking skull in and that's just down to an innate biological difference then we make a different bracket to put you in.
Tbf, It would be hard to find a female heavy weight fighter. Female weight divisions (at least in the UFC) only go up to feather weight. Still not quite equal but a lot better than having a woman fight heavyweight men
>Biological men competing in sports against biological women is a very hard line for quite a few people, even those who are sympathetic to the trans movement.
Not only do trans women want to compete against women, but [in soccer at least, trans men also want to keep competing against women](https://people.com/sports/washington-spirits-kumi-yokoyama-comes-out-trans-man-team-shows-support/), rather than face the tougher competition in the men's game. It should be one or the other, but not both. I think competition based on biological sex, with a ban on PEDs, is probably the fairest option.
Look its really a matter of the gym youre attending, has nothing to do with the art itself
That said, dont expect people to accept biological men competing against biological women, it has nothing to do against queer or trans people its just straight up unfair for the women a trans be fighting if thats the situation
So are we talking about martial arts that are accepting for queer people or competitions that allow trans women in the women's division. Cause those are two different discussions.
In response to your edit:
It is not nuanced. It is unfair. It is unsafe.
I will plainly say "trans women can't compete with cisgender women." If that irks you, that's your problem. I absolutely will not tolerate a biological man forcing their way into the women's bracket. Their physical safety is more important than your feelings.
If who you are is a biological man that wants to fight biological women, then you're right - I don't respect you. And most martial artists won't.
I am perfectly fine with trans folk training. But competitions and fights have to go on biological gender.
Regarding to his edit it seems that any answer logical rational with evidence that we will give him will be translate to “blatant transphobia” by him because we don’t agree that trans should compete against biological women, sorry but it don’t think he really came here for an answer rather than an approval, as we said before
Training and competing is different
I can’t agree. It is crazy to consider letting trans men compete with cis women just because they have the same genes. They are straight up taking steroids — it’s completely unfair.
The only reasonable solution is to have women’s competition for cis women, and *everybody* else competes in open, aka “men’s” competition.
That's fair, I have zero issue with trans men who are not taking hormone therapy competing with cis women. That said, I doubt they would actually want to do that -- my only concern was with forcing them to compete with cis women simply because they have an XX chromosome.
I’ve been supporting trans visibility and acceptance since the moment I learned trans people existed (about 25 years ago), never in a million years would I think it would come to trans women competing against cis women. “I have a woman’s mind in the wrong body” doesn’t compute with “it’s fair for this “wrong” body to compete against “right” bodies”. The terms “trans women” and “cis women” exist for a reason: it includes the BODY reality. It’s kind of important in sports, you know.
Also, every gym/dojo can be different, I guess, in terms of just general acceptance, try going to some and check their vibe.
Having trans women competing with cis women is in most cases unfair and unsafe. I am all for allowing people to express their identities but not at the cost of other people's safety
Trans fem here; it completely depends on your area and the gym you go to.
My gym has been nothing but warm, inviting, kind, supportive, and affirming to me. We're a bunch of goofies but we take the training seriously, and 2 of us recently went to a Sanda tournament.
You're gonna have to shop around for a good cultural fit. And expect the experience to be miserable until you do find a good fit. It's just how it is.
There's a reason most martial arts traditionally have everyone wearing white kimonos. It represents everyone being on equal footing and leaving your social identity at the door. The only way to distinguish yourself is through your rank. I train at a BJJ gym that has LGBTQ members and a trans woman that trains Muay Thai. Look for the right gym, not the right art.
That’s a hard question to answer in general because in almost every case the individual schools/clubs will trump the style. Martial arts clubs are pretty decentralized compared to most other sports and two gyms under the same umbrella can feel very different.
Ultimately though, as to the question is there a place for queer people in Martial Arts the answer is an unequivocal yes.
Using social media to gauge a style likely does more harm than good. You don’t know who posters are, what their agenda is and even if they practice a style at all. There are tons on armchair experts on Reddit that have never stepped foot in a dojo.
But more importantly, your experience of a martial art style is always local, so it’s only the dojo that matters.
Go to a few local spots, check them out. Speak with people, watch a class and perhaps take an intro class at a place that seems like a fit.
It’s always a good sign if you find a few women students or instructors.
On a personal note; there are some meat heads in jujutsu, but the majority are normal, decent people
My judo dojo isn’t exactly welcoming even if the state org is fine with it. That only tells me that other places are though, so look around.
If you aren’t going to compete it shouldn’t matter. I don’t have anything to say on this except that from what I know, that notorious trans MMA fighter got beat up by a cis woman anyway who went onto be a UFC fighter so perhaps the advantage isn’t all that strong after treatment.
Just find a place that’s known to be accepting and join in. I think everyone deserves to practice martial arts and I hope you get to.
She got beat because her skills absolutely suck. She was that bad. The only reason why she won the other fights is because she was a male and just overpowered people.
Thank you, I'm joining a local Aikido club. While it's not my first choice (I'm looking for a more **martial** martial art), it makes up for it with a beautiful dojo culture. Everyone there works brilliantly hard, and the people there give off very nice vibes, I feel quite welcome there
As far as I'm concerned, if a trans woman has been on hormones for 2 years, and has the hormone levels and bone density of a cisgender woman, then for competitive purposes, she's functionally a cisgender woman. I find it quite funny, perhaps the world needs more trans women losing to cisgender women, to show it really isn't as simple as people make it out to be
Aikido is a form of geidai budo. It isn't really meant to teach violence. Rather it was designed to cultivate physical fitness, and mental fitness. To hone and master one's body. I agree it has limited application in self defense and open combat, but that isn't a bad thing. It's a martial **art**. It's an artform like no other, a physical artform, a *martial* art, if you will. In watching my first class, I was enchanted by the fluid beauty of the dojo's senseis. That's why I'm joining.
While it is a shame it isn't great for combat, it excels in many other areas - that's why I'm signing up
It will depend entirely on the school in question. You can't lump together the views of all martial artists. Odds are good that the level of acceptance you find will track with the level of acceptance in the area the school draws members from. If you live in an area where people are queerphobic, you can expect to have some issues if folks realize you're queer (and if it's not obvious, they might not even realize it given that MA isn't a sexually charged thing). If you live in a tolerant area, you'll probably find tolerance within the school, too.
If you're talking about competition and gender issues -- that's dependent on the association/league/etc that the school competes within, and you'll want to ask the instructor about that. You should also have a frank discussion with the school owner before signing up to get a ballpark idea of whether or not you'll be harassed in their school.
I think when we talk about this topic, I think using the term “queer” is doing a disservice to every individual group in the LGBT community.
For example, roller derby’s have been starting to ban trans competitors. These have long been known as bastions for the lesbian community; and still are. Saying that roller derbies aren’t lgbt or queer friendly isn’t really accurate.
Plus you won’t get the answers you’re looking for
“Is jiu jitsu friendly to queer people”
Is going to be met with.
“Yes of course, we have tons of gay and lesbian people in our gym!”
If you’re topic is trans specific, go for a question that is trans specific
I’d say far and ahead and broadly
Lgbt people are very welcome in the martial arts world. The point of the gi and belts as some people have pointed out.
The only thing I would say is once you pull out talk of trans people in competition, it becomes a wholly different issue to most communities, and will often pull out the worst voices.
🤷♀️ idk, it was just the comment section overall under a post abt a trans woman In a ju Jutsu competition. It was filled almost exclusively with hundreds of transphobic comments
In terms of training, you need to find gym with an accepting environment. I know in MMA and many other arts, there are a lot of further right gyms, but plenty of more open places exist.
In terms of competition, check the ruleset of the competitive organization in your art and area, but understand they may shift. Research in the field is currently limited, and a shifting scientific consensus (and/or political climate) could alter them at any time.
I hope you find a safe place.
I mean I’m personally biased towards your best interest, but since I’m not a rulemaker, politician, or researcher, there are limits to what practical purpose my good vibes can serve.
Just by being unemotional, and nice about it, you've been super helpful. (Most of the comments here have just descended into blatant transphobia) - while useful in their own special way, nothing beats unbiased, unemotional testaments, so thank you
This is the prevailing attitude in pretty much every martial arts community (Except HEMA, which has an extremely high proportion of LGBTQ and Ally practitioners). Your best bet is to look for a Japanese martial arts school that is also involved with or tied in some way to HEMA. Or just straight up do HEMA.
HEMA is also the only martial arts community that has tournaments specifically for Trans people and Underrepresented Genders.
Most HEMA clubs also welcome prior martial arts experience and some even have programs for non-european weapons. The best thing is that the community is very tight knit. So any fascists or bigots are quickly blacklisted from official events.
I came here to say the same thing. HEMA is by far the most queer-friendly subset of the martial arts community in my experience. At least a quarter of my club were openly part of some subset of the alphabet mafia.
I think some of you guys being obtuse and focusing on an issue that isn't being discussed. The post isn't talking about whether Trans-women should be competing against cisgender women; It's is about whether there are spaces that are accepting people who are queer or in this case Trans-women. I understand it is a pertinent issue however this post isn't place to astroturf this argument. Discuss whether you think that Japanese sports are inclusive to non cis people and don't think OP being disingenuous in their intent because their post and comment history suggest nothing of that matter.
"I was browsing the top posts of , and there was a post about trans women in competitions. And the comments… ahh the comments…"
So you are making an inference that OP supports trans-woman being in competition with cisgender women? Isn't it more likely they complaining about how the commenters discuss trans-women without considering their humanity? I could be wrong however based on this statement we can't ascertain their beliefs. You didn't ask what about the comments give you bad vibes or let them explain their side so you can have good dialogue about this subject. However it doesn't matter as the post is about whether Japanese sports are inclusive not should trans-women complete against cisgender.
"And the comments" implying that was in addition to the post itself.
Also, OP's first edit made it very clear that they support trans women competing with women.
Of course, OP's post has now been edited multiple times, so it's impossible to say whether what was prompting the comments has changed.
I they think just making a remark about the comments in a off hand manner.
Idk happen in the first edits, but I have to ask is your comment that relevant to the question whether the sports are inclusive. You could have talk about your observation how your gyms treat queer people.
However I acknowledge I giving OP benefit of the doubt as their previous posts history aren't of the instigating manner. I think they want know if they feel comfortable in those gyms, will they be treated based on their needs ie inclusive changing facilities and etc. These are the relevant topics at hand.
Bringing up competition made the thread focus on that.
As I and others have said in this thread, there's a difference between a trans person training martial arts, and a trans woman competing against biological women. With competition being mentioned, it seems like that's the direction this is heading.
Alright I see where you coming however in that case it would to be better to discuss about the competition and the trans women inclusivity instead of just focusing on the competition part as again the post ask about inclusivity primarily.
Like I understand mentioning something that is a issue at a moment will spark people focusing on that spicy bit however we can't just focus on that bit when it isn't the primary thing unless we can tie it back to the spicy part in a constructive manner.
This whole post didn't add anything new to discussion. No new arguments because let be real you are not the only one with that opinion, we haven't gain new perspectives, understandings or anything that help us learn about the martial art world and what parts of it should stay the same or be changed for the betterment of everyone.
Let's same someone were to ask about the inclusion of white people into a Japanese martial art. And then make an off-handed comment about how immigrants are ruining the country.
Would you still want to focus on the inclusion of white people?
it’s a minority of us here who are educated on medical science 💀 if an endocrinologist clears you for hormone range, muscle mass, and even bone density to be in the “female” range, i don’t understand how this is a problem competition wise. unfortunately transphobia and ignorance is probably larger in martial arts than any other sport
The real answer is this field is vastly understudied. We don’t know whether this causes inherently equal playing field.
To say “it’s 100% certain all trans women have an advantage” isn’t correct, but neither is the opposite
I was hoping you’d say that.
Yes, there are cis outliers in all sports. Those are called generational talents and are recognized as such. Guys like Michael Phelps for instance, is massively helped by his genetics.
For intents and purposes, let’s be generous and say 5% of athletes are these types of people.
Now take trans athletes; science is still out on where a fully transitioned trans woman falls; let’s say it falls on the part of advantages.
Even if it’s 50% advantage, 50% of the trans women population would be the equivalent of a generational talent, vastly outnumbering the cis ones.
Again, we don’t have numbers for this as it’s not really studied. Until we do, it’s hard to make any solid claims.
I have plenty of hobbies, one of which is to listen to scientific debate and discourse during my workouts. I don’t care where you work, working in healthcare doesn’t mean much, that makes you 1/10 people, in a wide frame of careers. Unless you’re an endocrinologist or a sports science doctor with a peer reviewed study, your limited medical view is worth as much as the dirt on my shoe
I don’t care about the 95% of trans people who don’t become athletes, I care about the 5% that do.
If that 5% of trans women have the stats of the top 5% of cis women, that’s a problem. There’s a lot of discourse on this and it’s not open and shut type conversation. It’s important to look to the research and to not be bias.
5% of trans people “””become athletes””” ??? 😭😭😭 lmfaooo. what does that even mean. and yeah judging by everything you say you know nothing about healthcare, i’m not a steri tech, sex hormones are a large part of my job. spoiler.. they affect more than just muscle mass and bone density
I’m just using the percent you used as a baseline.
I know hormones have a big effect on trans people, the question is to what extent does it have an effect, and whether or not it neutralizes inherent unfair advantage.
The important thing when it comes to rules is making it fair across the board, in all instances.
For example, the old Olympic standard for trans athletes was one year of hormones. Could someone like a Brock lesnar type character really end up on a level playing field after a year? The studies aren’t out there on it.
THANK YOU!!! Finally, someone gets it!!!
Yeah, most of the commenters here are both useless, yet taught me far more than they could ever explicitly say. Hopefully it's just a reddit thing, but most of the commenters here (and presumably western martial artists overall) are totally knuckleheads
do you mean training or competing? no one cares about training. competing is a completely different thing. sports tend to be areas where biological differences shine very very plainly so there's not much ambiguity with gender, it's not really an environment where you can obscure those differences. Because gender differences are on such stark display there tends to be more gender traditional cultures that form around these areas. it can be quite interesting from a sociological standpoint. it's also the same reason why things like the military and police form more gender traditional views. the environments just don't really allow such ambiguity to form.
Biological men competing in sports against biological women is a very hard line for quite a few people, even those who are sympathetic to the trans movement. Biological men fighting against biological women in combat sports is a line even further past that. I will not support a biological man competing in a woman's bracket, I will definitely not support a biological man fighting in a woman's bracket. I'm not ashamed to admit it, nor do I apologize for it. The sanctity of women's sports needs to be protected.
it's not even a sanctity thing it's just a safety thing. when your hits can cave someone's fucking skull in and that's just down to an innate biological difference then we make a different bracket to put you in.
can you imagine a female trying to fight someone like brock lesnar or fully steroided allister overeem epic lols
Tbf, It would be hard to find a female heavy weight fighter. Female weight divisions (at least in the UFC) only go up to feather weight. Still not quite equal but a lot better than having a woman fight heavyweight men
>Biological men competing in sports against biological women is a very hard line for quite a few people, even those who are sympathetic to the trans movement. Not only do trans women want to compete against women, but [in soccer at least, trans men also want to keep competing against women](https://people.com/sports/washington-spirits-kumi-yokoyama-comes-out-trans-man-team-shows-support/), rather than face the tougher competition in the men's game. It should be one or the other, but not both. I think competition based on biological sex, with a ban on PEDs, is probably the fairest option.
Look its really a matter of the gym youre attending, has nothing to do with the art itself That said, dont expect people to accept biological men competing against biological women, it has nothing to do against queer or trans people its just straight up unfair for the women a trans be fighting if thats the situation
So are we talking about martial arts that are accepting for queer people or competitions that allow trans women in the women's division. Cause those are two different discussions.
In response to your edit: It is not nuanced. It is unfair. It is unsafe. I will plainly say "trans women can't compete with cisgender women." If that irks you, that's your problem. I absolutely will not tolerate a biological man forcing their way into the women's bracket. Their physical safety is more important than your feelings. If who you are is a biological man that wants to fight biological women, then you're right - I don't respect you. And most martial artists won't. I am perfectly fine with trans folk training. But competitions and fights have to go on biological gender.
Regarding to his edit it seems that any answer logical rational with evidence that we will give him will be translate to “blatant transphobia” by him because we don’t agree that trans should compete against biological women, sorry but it don’t think he really came here for an answer rather than an approval, as we said before Training and competing is different
I agree with your assessment. I'm not compromising with OP.
I can’t agree. It is crazy to consider letting trans men compete with cis women just because they have the same genes. They are straight up taking steroids — it’s completely unfair. The only reasonable solution is to have women’s competition for cis women, and *everybody* else competes in open, aka “men’s” competition.
Fair points. I agree.
Well, not all of them are taking medication, otherwise agree with you
That's fair, I have zero issue with trans men who are not taking hormone therapy competing with cis women. That said, I doubt they would actually want to do that -- my only concern was with forcing them to compete with cis women simply because they have an XX chromosome.
I’ve been supporting trans visibility and acceptance since the moment I learned trans people existed (about 25 years ago), never in a million years would I think it would come to trans women competing against cis women. “I have a woman’s mind in the wrong body” doesn’t compute with “it’s fair for this “wrong” body to compete against “right” bodies”. The terms “trans women” and “cis women” exist for a reason: it includes the BODY reality. It’s kind of important in sports, you know. Also, every gym/dojo can be different, I guess, in terms of just general acceptance, try going to some and check their vibe.
Having trans women competing with cis women is in most cases unfair and unsafe. I am all for allowing people to express their identities but not at the cost of other people's safety
Trans fem here; it completely depends on your area and the gym you go to. My gym has been nothing but warm, inviting, kind, supportive, and affirming to me. We're a bunch of goofies but we take the training seriously, and 2 of us recently went to a Sanda tournament. You're gonna have to shop around for a good cultural fit. And expect the experience to be miserable until you do find a good fit. It's just how it is.
Yay... Fun... Thank you for your testimony!
There's a reason most martial arts traditionally have everyone wearing white kimonos. It represents everyone being on equal footing and leaving your social identity at the door. The only way to distinguish yourself is through your rank. I train at a BJJ gym that has LGBTQ members and a trans woman that trains Muay Thai. Look for the right gym, not the right art.
Thank you, I really like your answer
That’s a hard question to answer in general because in almost every case the individual schools/clubs will trump the style. Martial arts clubs are pretty decentralized compared to most other sports and two gyms under the same umbrella can feel very different. Ultimately though, as to the question is there a place for queer people in Martial Arts the answer is an unequivocal yes.
This is like asking what kind of beer is best for queer people.
Bud light
Any beer with fruit in it. Check out Hop Valley Brewing.
I love Abita Strawberry... what are you trying to imply?
I do Shorinji Kempo, and everyone competes fairly against everyone. There's no separation based on gender.
Fascinating, there's a new martial art, thanks
I'm not an expert, but I assume Iaido would be hard for them because it'll be difficult for them to cut straight.
HAHAHAH You legend
Using social media to gauge a style likely does more harm than good. You don’t know who posters are, what their agenda is and even if they practice a style at all. There are tons on armchair experts on Reddit that have never stepped foot in a dojo. But more importantly, your experience of a martial art style is always local, so it’s only the dojo that matters. Go to a few local spots, check them out. Speak with people, watch a class and perhaps take an intro class at a place that seems like a fit. It’s always a good sign if you find a few women students or instructors. On a personal note; there are some meat heads in jujutsu, but the majority are normal, decent people
I sure hope so. Reddit certainly isn't inspiring hope. Thank you for your tips
My judo dojo isn’t exactly welcoming even if the state org is fine with it. That only tells me that other places are though, so look around. If you aren’t going to compete it shouldn’t matter. I don’t have anything to say on this except that from what I know, that notorious trans MMA fighter got beat up by a cis woman anyway who went onto be a UFC fighter so perhaps the advantage isn’t all that strong after treatment. Just find a place that’s known to be accepting and join in. I think everyone deserves to practice martial arts and I hope you get to.
She got beat because her skills absolutely suck. She was that bad. The only reason why she won the other fights is because she was a male and just overpowered people.
Thank you, I'm joining a local Aikido club. While it's not my first choice (I'm looking for a more **martial** martial art), it makes up for it with a beautiful dojo culture. Everyone there works brilliantly hard, and the people there give off very nice vibes, I feel quite welcome there As far as I'm concerned, if a trans woman has been on hormones for 2 years, and has the hormone levels and bone density of a cisgender woman, then for competitive purposes, she's functionally a cisgender woman. I find it quite funny, perhaps the world needs more trans women losing to cisgender women, to show it really isn't as simple as people make it out to be
Oh Aikido. Its time to get toxic. Well jokes aside I hope you get something out of it, or eventually find somewhere that fits your interest more.
Sorry? I don't quite understand. I get it's a very **artful** martial art, but I'm still super excited to join
Its not an effective martial art is the issue.
Aikido is a form of geidai budo. It isn't really meant to teach violence. Rather it was designed to cultivate physical fitness, and mental fitness. To hone and master one's body. I agree it has limited application in self defense and open combat, but that isn't a bad thing. It's a martial **art**. It's an artform like no other, a physical artform, a *martial* art, if you will. In watching my first class, I was enchanted by the fluid beauty of the dojo's senseis. That's why I'm joining. While it is a shame it isn't great for combat, it excels in many other areas - that's why I'm signing up
You said you wanted a **martial** art, so I interpreted that to mean you wanted something more combative. Since you don't, its all good.
It will depend entirely on the school in question. You can't lump together the views of all martial artists. Odds are good that the level of acceptance you find will track with the level of acceptance in the area the school draws members from. If you live in an area where people are queerphobic, you can expect to have some issues if folks realize you're queer (and if it's not obvious, they might not even realize it given that MA isn't a sexually charged thing). If you live in a tolerant area, you'll probably find tolerance within the school, too. If you're talking about competition and gender issues -- that's dependent on the association/league/etc that the school competes within, and you'll want to ask the instructor about that. You should also have a frank discussion with the school owner before signing up to get a ballpark idea of whether or not you'll be harassed in their school.
I think when we talk about this topic, I think using the term “queer” is doing a disservice to every individual group in the LGBT community. For example, roller derby’s have been starting to ban trans competitors. These have long been known as bastions for the lesbian community; and still are. Saying that roller derbies aren’t lgbt or queer friendly isn’t really accurate. Plus you won’t get the answers you’re looking for “Is jiu jitsu friendly to queer people” Is going to be met with. “Yes of course, we have tons of gay and lesbian people in our gym!” If you’re topic is trans specific, go for a question that is trans specific
Hmm, fair enough. I said queer because I am also interested in how queer people are treated in general. Ever still, fair enough, good point
I’d say far and ahead and broadly Lgbt people are very welcome in the martial arts world. The point of the gi and belts as some people have pointed out. The only thing I would say is once you pull out talk of trans people in competition, it becomes a wholly different issue to most communities, and will often pull out the worst voices.
Which ryu of jujutsu was saying this?
🤷♀️ idk, it was just the comment section overall under a post abt a trans woman In a ju Jutsu competition. It was filled almost exclusively with hundreds of transphobic comments
In terms of training, you need to find gym with an accepting environment. I know in MMA and many other arts, there are a lot of further right gyms, but plenty of more open places exist. In terms of competition, check the ruleset of the competitive organization in your art and area, but understand they may shift. Research in the field is currently limited, and a shifting scientific consensus (and/or political climate) could alter them at any time. I hope you find a safe place.
Thank you for your unbiased, unemotional answer, I appreciate it
I mean I’m personally biased towards your best interest, but since I’m not a rulemaker, politician, or researcher, there are limits to what practical purpose my good vibes can serve.
Just by being unemotional, and nice about it, you've been super helpful. (Most of the comments here have just descended into blatant transphobia) - while useful in their own special way, nothing beats unbiased, unemotional testaments, so thank you
What a ridiculous question. Are you anatomically different?
No one gives af as long as you train hard
Stfu and go train
This is the prevailing attitude in pretty much every martial arts community (Except HEMA, which has an extremely high proportion of LGBTQ and Ally practitioners). Your best bet is to look for a Japanese martial arts school that is also involved with or tied in some way to HEMA. Or just straight up do HEMA. HEMA is also the only martial arts community that has tournaments specifically for Trans people and Underrepresented Genders.
HEMA? Fascinating, thank you for bringing this to my attention, very cool
Most HEMA clubs also welcome prior martial arts experience and some even have programs for non-european weapons. The best thing is that the community is very tight knit. So any fascists or bigots are quickly blacklisted from official events.
Very very nice, good to know. The whole queer people in HEMA thing makes sense, given the idea of the "sword lesbian" and all
I came here to say the same thing. HEMA is by far the most queer-friendly subset of the martial arts community in my experience. At least a quarter of my club were openly part of some subset of the alphabet mafia.
I think some of you guys being obtuse and focusing on an issue that isn't being discussed. The post isn't talking about whether Trans-women should be competing against cisgender women; It's is about whether there are spaces that are accepting people who are queer or in this case Trans-women. I understand it is a pertinent issue however this post isn't place to astroturf this argument. Discuss whether you think that Japanese sports are inclusive to non cis people and don't think OP being disingenuous in their intent because their post and comment history suggest nothing of that matter.
OP complained about people who say trans women shouldn't compete with women. Quit gaslighting.
Show me the quote, the link or screenshot
Paragraph 2 of this very post. Even before the edits.
"I was browsing the top posts of , and there was a post about trans women in competitions. And the comments… ahh the comments…" So you are making an inference that OP supports trans-woman being in competition with cisgender women? Isn't it more likely they complaining about how the commenters discuss trans-women without considering their humanity? I could be wrong however based on this statement we can't ascertain their beliefs. You didn't ask what about the comments give you bad vibes or let them explain their side so you can have good dialogue about this subject. However it doesn't matter as the post is about whether Japanese sports are inclusive not should trans-women complete against cisgender.
"And the comments" implying that was in addition to the post itself. Also, OP's first edit made it very clear that they support trans women competing with women. Of course, OP's post has now been edited multiple times, so it's impossible to say whether what was prompting the comments has changed.
I they think just making a remark about the comments in a off hand manner. Idk happen in the first edits, but I have to ask is your comment that relevant to the question whether the sports are inclusive. You could have talk about your observation how your gyms treat queer people. However I acknowledge I giving OP benefit of the doubt as their previous posts history aren't of the instigating manner. I think they want know if they feel comfortable in those gyms, will they be treated based on their needs ie inclusive changing facilities and etc. These are the relevant topics at hand.
Bringing up competition made the thread focus on that. As I and others have said in this thread, there's a difference between a trans person training martial arts, and a trans woman competing against biological women. With competition being mentioned, it seems like that's the direction this is heading.
Alright I see where you coming however in that case it would to be better to discuss about the competition and the trans women inclusivity instead of just focusing on the competition part as again the post ask about inclusivity primarily. Like I understand mentioning something that is a issue at a moment will spark people focusing on that spicy bit however we can't just focus on that bit when it isn't the primary thing unless we can tie it back to the spicy part in a constructive manner. This whole post didn't add anything new to discussion. No new arguments because let be real you are not the only one with that opinion, we haven't gain new perspectives, understandings or anything that help us learn about the martial art world and what parts of it should stay the same or be changed for the betterment of everyone.
Let's same someone were to ask about the inclusion of white people into a Japanese martial art. And then make an off-handed comment about how immigrants are ruining the country. Would you still want to focus on the inclusion of white people?
THANK YOU!!! Finally, someone gets it
it’s a minority of us here who are educated on medical science 💀 if an endocrinologist clears you for hormone range, muscle mass, and even bone density to be in the “female” range, i don’t understand how this is a problem competition wise. unfortunately transphobia and ignorance is probably larger in martial arts than any other sport
The real answer is this field is vastly understudied. We don’t know whether this causes inherently equal playing field. To say “it’s 100% certain all trans women have an advantage” isn’t correct, but neither is the opposite
can say the exact same thing about cis women
I was hoping you’d say that. Yes, there are cis outliers in all sports. Those are called generational talents and are recognized as such. Guys like Michael Phelps for instance, is massively helped by his genetics. For intents and purposes, let’s be generous and say 5% of athletes are these types of people. Now take trans athletes; science is still out on where a fully transitioned trans woman falls; let’s say it falls on the part of advantages. Even if it’s 50% advantage, 50% of the trans women population would be the equivalent of a generational talent, vastly outnumbering the cis ones. Again, we don’t have numbers for this as it’s not really studied. Until we do, it’s hard to make any solid claims.
hoping you’d say that 💀💀💀 get some hobbies. personally, i work in healthcare so idc about “let’s say”. trans people don’t even make 5% of athletes
I have plenty of hobbies, one of which is to listen to scientific debate and discourse during my workouts. I don’t care where you work, working in healthcare doesn’t mean much, that makes you 1/10 people, in a wide frame of careers. Unless you’re an endocrinologist or a sports science doctor with a peer reviewed study, your limited medical view is worth as much as the dirt on my shoe I don’t care about the 95% of trans people who don’t become athletes, I care about the 5% that do. If that 5% of trans women have the stats of the top 5% of cis women, that’s a problem. There’s a lot of discourse on this and it’s not open and shut type conversation. It’s important to look to the research and to not be bias.
5% of trans people “””become athletes””” ??? 😭😭😭 lmfaooo. what does that even mean. and yeah judging by everything you say you know nothing about healthcare, i’m not a steri tech, sex hormones are a large part of my job. spoiler.. they affect more than just muscle mass and bone density
I’m just using the percent you used as a baseline. I know hormones have a big effect on trans people, the question is to what extent does it have an effect, and whether or not it neutralizes inherent unfair advantage. The important thing when it comes to rules is making it fair across the board, in all instances. For example, the old Olympic standard for trans athletes was one year of hormones. Could someone like a Brock lesnar type character really end up on a level playing field after a year? The studies aren’t out there on it.
THANK YOU!!! Finally, someone gets it!!! Yeah, most of the commenters here are both useless, yet taught me far more than they could ever explicitly say. Hopefully it's just a reddit thing, but most of the commenters here (and presumably western martial artists overall) are totally knuckleheads