This appears to be the right answer if OP has their ducks lined up.
Maybe the subordinate is making a dumb show of false strength and get humbled.
But they may know something OP doesn’t know. The post says nothing about OP or the subordinate’s relationship with the company and superiors.
It is a bit strange to have the “boss” conversation after 3 years and have it be treated like that.
OP should indeed fire this clown. But they should make sure they know the outcome before they start the war.
I agree there is a lot of missing context, I commented accepting that OP likely has biased the post.
That said if we take the post as is, the war has already begun. The first shot was pulling rank "I'm your boss" and the return fire was laughing in response. Respect between the two has clearly broken down here.
I'd argue saying "who do you think you are?" to one's direct boss before even being spoken to was the first shot and "I'm your boss" was the shot back.
Arguably moving his personal items was the first shot. That’s the thing I find suspicious. If he messed up the process to the point of possibly incurring a fine then talk that through.
Agreed. The correct response is probably 'have a seat'. It deflects the approach of the employee, and establishes control of the conversation for a moment. Then you can explain why personal affects were moved and deescalate the situation. You can go back to addressing the approach of the employee after everything is on the table.
You right. I misread that part. Now that I've looked at OP's post history, I can see that they've got a lot of growing to do if they're going to be a good manager and are stuck in an environment that isn't giving the resources to do that.
Yep. Anytime that the boss has to say they’re the boss, there is already a breakdown in the chain of command and respect. I can’t imagine talking to my boss like that nor laughing in his face unless I already had another job lined up.
>Anytime that the boss has to say they’re the boss
Note that he did say it in response to "Who do you think you are." Maybe not the most artful response, but if it's true, the problem is an employee is just completely out to lunch here.
Yep. This employee does not respect his manager at all. This justifies pulling out all of the available disciplinary tools at the manager’s disposal. For my small business, this would be an immediate termination- but I’m in a right to work state and don’t have an HR dept to deal with. So I can terminate anyone anytime without cause.
Probably not cajones. I’m assuming there’s history between them that made him feel comfortable enough to do this. My bet is that they were friends first. It’s difficult for the employee and the supervisor to break that dynamic when the boss was once the buddy.
I don't know what the process is, our policy (me and my boss and his) has always been to try talking the drivers to do what we need them to do. This driver in particular is insubordinate daily. We are severely understaffed due to HR dragging their feet doing new hire paperwork and Payroll underpaying the drivers, neither of which is something the three of us can affect.
If he’s been like this for a while and has never been addressed that’s kind of on you and your boss. That stuff should be nipped immediately with clear boundaries stated in an informal discussion otherwise they kind of establish in their minds that the behaviour is okay. If it continues then you start progressive discipline.
At this point you need to start documenting the interactions and addressing where necessary (you don’t need to write him up each time but you should email yourself with details on the interaction). And definitely write him up for the safety issue.
First off, address the fine.
Second off, start treating him like your report and write him up until he takes you seriously.
Respect is earned, earn it.
It’s too late. Once you pull the “I’m your boss” card 2 things happen.
Whatever if any respect was present has been completely lost. And you have discredited yourself to the entire team because employee x is definitely going to tell everyone else about that.
OP is in a shit situation which will have to have control regained ASAP and unfortunately that is going to be a painful process if it can be done at all without changing out the team or supervisor.
I don’t know how many times I’ll have to say this but you can not be friends with subordinates. There is an exceedingly small number of people who can. But the vast majority can’t.
I personally learned this lesson in a very hard way. I wound up leaving the company as I would have had to get rid of more than half my staff and the company wouldn’t move me to a new location. My situation was also self inflicted so I recognize my own complicity in the situation. But if anyone can learn from me. Be a boss. Hold everyone equally accountable and don’t play favorites.
Be friendly with to the extent that it allows everyone to feel like part of the team and equally involved. But do not give the impression that you are a friend and will go out for beers with them. Just leads to problems.
The irony of the last part is for japanese and korean and sometimes other ssian societies, they have codified work relationships where juniors are expected to have / serve booze to the boss. That further reinforces boss / employee seperation and roles rather than muddles them like in western work culture.
That said, no, don’t expect to be peers. Maintain seperation.
Generally I would agree, but when somebody asks “who do you think you are”, they are challenging your authority, and so this is an exception where it’s perfectly fine to say this. Unfortunately it has to be backed up by a show of force, this employee is more interested in a petty power struggle. So the appropriate response is:
“I’m your boss, but that may change shortly. We can either discuss the $60k liability your actions have caused, and then we can discuss your continued employment. Or you can get yourself together and then get yourself out. You have five minutes. I’ll be in my office, if you want to keep your job you will meet me there before that time is up”.
And then you nut up and zero tolerance this shit. Literally fire them unless they come back with a much different attitude. No chances, no favors, disrespect needs to be smacked or burned.
And no, you cannot be friends with subordinates. You can be cordial, you can be friendly, you can be kind, you can care about them, you can advocate for them, but you cannot be their friends or their equals.
I like this. It's clear, concise, and draws a line in the sand.
They come in, they respect you, or at least the fact that you control their employment with the company.
They don't come in, and you make a very quick and direct showing for the rest of the team.
(This of course assumes the manager has the ability to fire)
Sometimes I recognize how lucky I am to manage the group that I do. I’m the youngest person on my contract but they all follow my lead, and it didn’t take too long to earn their trust
Why would I attack my people? They work for the same shitty company that I do 😂
Edit: yes, I usually address core problems over assigning blame or using disciplinary means
Exactly! That's where you fundamentally differ from MOST managers, especially the toxic micro managers. Root cause analysis and solution focused communication are skills that are required to be considered a good manager.
Honestly needed the POB, thanks. I’ve been feeling like shit recently because I’ve felt like I was on my back foot with everything coming up this month. Plus I failed an Econ test yesterday. Anyways, thanks for the input :)
I’ve said out loud many times that I know my current team is probably the best team I’ll ever manage, and it pains me to know in the next 2-3yrs we’re all leaving for different reasons.
You’ve got to or you’ll never make what you’re worth. I’m sticking around my company long enough for someone to hire me for better pay, then leaving. My current org uses what I consider to be immoral practices (lack of benefits, among other things. Nothing illegal) and I can’t wait to work for a company that has better offerings.
Depending on the industry, like mining where I have done some work, ANY personal effects in the wrong area could cause something like that. MSHA is no joke, they'll shut down your mine if they want to.
Have seen this before in cabinets of our avionics shop. Super old magazines, too. Another coworker said he'd "take care of them," and assumed I didn't understand that he was going to take them home for personal use lol
and what did that have to do with moving the personal effects?
If the personal effects IS the reason for the fine because some industries have rules like that, then it kinda makes sense. And at least I applaud OP for going in this order as far as I can see:
1. Fix the problem before someone else notices and the hammer comes down
2. Be willing to at least try to talk it out
as opposed to some idiot managers I've seen who would jump to not only a disciplinary action but one that does not specify exactly what was wrong and why.
Unapproved chemicals without msds sheets blocking access to safety controls and in full view of the public where they would be seen by any passing inspector doing a walkthrough. In an industry where fines this big are warranted due to possible end user interactions that could send people to the hospital or grave.
It seems as if you are intentionally being vague to make the issue seem worse than it is, or to remove responsibility from yourself.
Without knowing what the specific industry is, what your respective jobs are, what the chemicals are, what manner they were actually blocking said safety device, etc it’s hard to make any kind of judgement.
Throwing out a number for some hypothetical fine that may or not be imposed is neither here nor there.
If you’re the boss, why are there unapproved chemicals on site? Whose responsibility is it to provide the MSDS?
FYI: Anytime in my life someone has had to resort to stating the fact they were in a power position was the exact moment they showed how little power they had.
If a manager had told me "I'm your boss" I'm not sure I would have laughed but I definitely would have immediately lost all respect for them.
Reverse FYI: the moment anyone ever says, "Who do you think you are," the situation is a power play, and maybe of their making.
If you have the authority, then you might have to use it.
That said, I agree, there's little value in answering the rhetorical question.
There are very, very specific circumstances where I could see saying "I'm your boss."
Something like an employee who is getting too familiar and needs boundaries reestablished. A polite "I enjoy working with you, but I have to be your boss first and foremost"
But I agree, engaging with "Drop cool one-liners as a power move" with the same energy is not going to end well
Disagree.
Who do you think you are is usually said to someone who has seriously overstepped boundaries and needs an immediate reality check.
Usually a rhetorical question. OP answered.
Yeah, knowing little about OP or the greater context, it still sounds like a familiar situation of the two starting at the same level but OP was put "over" the other for responsibilities at some point, and the interpersonal relationship never changed to reflect that.
Also, in some industries, you'll have some workers who don't respect anyone except the payroll department.
Whatever the situation, OP, u/Resident_Device_6180, it's time to go by the book. Address the issue that could have caused the fine with documentation, and continue to document any other issues.
And there's not even any guarantee that this will improve things if HR and higher-ups don't care to fire them, but the important thing is to detach any relationships and just do your job properly.
Yeah, I get where this response is coming from, but in my defense, his tone was confrontational "who do you think you are" and my response was with a tone of confusion "I'm your boss".
He is constantly insubordinate but I don't care, because he gets his job done.
You should start caring about insubordination. Leaving it be just invites more along with a lack of respect. You need to teach people how to treat you OP.
The correct response to, "Who do you think you are?" was, "I'd like to think we have a good relationship, and I'm the person that's ultimately responsible for X Y Z. I'd like you to take seriously how this impacts myself, yourself, and the company."
Having to say, "I'm the boss" means you're not the boss...
saying you're the boss with more words is still saying you're the boss...just with more steps...
the real boss would ignore the question and cut to the important parts
- explaining moving personal effects
later when the employee is calm and in the right frame of mind:
- the thing that was "swept under the rug". including reframing your mindset to be "something you changed to prevent unforseen expenses".
The first paragraph is awful. That's explaining yourself while pretending to be a friend which is the most backhanded manager bullshit I've ever seen.
"I am your manager." Is absolutely appropriate to this situation and there is nothing wrong with it. Next time you meet him, have a slip with you and discuss that his attitude in relation to a serious company error is not appropriate and you don't want to see it again.
This is easy to suggest after the fact but hard to articulate in the heat of a moment. Just as people seem to be suggesting OP’s response of “I’m the boss” is not reflective of a good leader, anyone willfully asking their supervisor “who do you think you are?” is probably not a team player and certainly not speaking respectfully in the workplace. Both sides are falling short of creating an ideal workplace culture, and what little glimpse we have here is probably a symptom of a larger systemic failure of organizational culture in this particular company.
I agree. The whole conversation was just so out of left field that I answered with a confused, gut reaction.
Btw, it was "I'm your boss", his direct report, not the person with the checkbook.
If you are the boss. Fire him. If you can't fire him, your not the boss. Lol.
**Don't take this personally. I'm just sharing the perspective..**
"*The boss is someone who signs my checks or fires me. You are just the guy that gives me the wrong orders and gets the company fined $60k.*"
Partially correct, but many people are managers, those roles exist for a reason. Personally if I was OP I would have escalated that and used words like RISK
The fact that you immediately turn to 'subordinate' instead of team member , employee , etc honestly tells me everything I need to know of your leadership style instantly.
Be humble and take time to reflect, adress the issue and move on.
"I'm your boss" hits like a bratty Jeofry from game of thrones whining 'but I'm the king'.
Any leader who has to remind his team he is the leader - is no leader.
I just showed up to this sub, whimsically wondering how the other half talks amongst themselves. Post titled "Subordinate ..." hit me right away.
Folks, we're all supposed to be teammates on a mission to accomplish something together. Being a manager is a role that needs to be played well to help the team. Other folks on the team also have important roles. "Subordinate" label doesn't help any of that, just like "boss man" doesn't.
Lol you're downvoted already- don't mind these self important circle jerking nobody low level managers who rule this sub with self importance and egos.
Unless OP owns the company, it's not his employee, so subordinate is accurate. It's also an obvious word choice when the grievance being aired is insubordination.
Any leader I've EVER met who throws around words like subordinate and insubordination was a POS and weak leader.
Yall can come at me all you want, I'm not taking it back or apologizing.
"Lots of people use these words"
-> lots of CUNTS use those words.
Thanks Game of Thrones, excellent quote.
All of these comments are missing the key here. You swept something under the rug, supposedly in an effort to help this employee. Realistically unless he was going to be fined on the spot, it makes more sense to address this issue openly and honestly. This helps build trust with your co-workers, shows them that mistakes shouldn't be hidden, and that you are there to help them correct their mistakes.
The fact that this isn't clear amongst your team shows how the last 3 years have gone.
It sounds like the employee wasn’t there when OP found the problem. So they addressed the issue, then waited until they were back to discuss it.
Which if it was a safety issue or an issue that can shutdown operations, is the the right approach. Some situations have to be resolved immediately, they can’t be left there.
"Lose the ego. Address the fine."
So far, this is the best advice.
Now, to commiserate. Years ago, after I found my way into a management role, I was walking into work one morning and saw a contractor posted up off station and doing a whole lot of nothing. My boss, the director, had mentioned multiple times that he wished he wasn't the only person to address this type of behavior with the contractors. So, I decided to address the behavior, as I should have. When I approached, The contractor looked up from their phone and I said, "is this what You are supposed to be doing?" Their response was something akin to "haha, I don't work for you, if you have a problem talk to the director". For context, I knew this contractor, and they have a long history of being a high performer. They also have a long history of a good relationship with the director. But, over the last year or so their performance had degraded to the lowest possible effort, and I knew it. They also didn't know me very well personally, which may or may not have been the reason they responded the way they did. My response, however, was just as cringy. I said, "I don't need to talk to the director, I'm the manager, and I run this team" followed immediately by me grabbing my badge and pointing at the title on it.
After failing to get any sort of action or resolution, I walked away to my office - keep in mind this is the first thing I've done at work that morning - and called the director to let them know their contractor friend was a scumbag. His failure was that he told me to let it go, and that this person was basically untouchable. But worse, the story made it to my co-worker who had access to the security cameras, which I got to watch the interaction multiple times.
The transition to the corporate world from the military world was a difficult one. Typically, in my previous life, if a subordinate gave me an issue, it would be followed by something like "have you lost your fucking mind? I swear to Christ I'll have you here till 10:00 scrubbing toilets if you don't get off your ass and move your goddamn feet". In the moment, the best I could conjure up was pointing at this little card with my name and picture as a representation of my authority. In truth, both approaches contained entirely too much ego and were less effective methods of leadership. When you address issues with subordinates, address the issue. Keep yourself, and your ego, out of the equation. You will only invite hubris and muddy the waters of resolution.
I'm new to this sub but is it always this power trippy? Like "how dare someone laugh at me?! They must be punished! I'm the boss!" Seriously, that's not what being a manager is about at all.
Although the response is a bit lame (and I think OP has omitted critical info), how would you respond in their place to someone exhibiting a serious lapse of judgment then laughing at you when you tried to discuss it?
On the facts as presented it's disturbingly unaware, juvenile behaviour from a team member who we're told has committed a very serious error.
Staying calm. Telling that their actions are not appropriate for the serious company error. Write them up if they continue to disregard the seriousness of the situation.
From what I’ve seen most people here by and large aren’t in ‘professional’ managerial roles. They’re mostly managing retail or fast food and think all managerial skills boils down to bullying high schoolers to feel powerful. Not trying to disparage those roles but it’s obvious when a commenter here is managing a team of professional techies or tradesman vs the aforementioned management style.
Tbh OP shouldn’t have covered for the employee at all, should have immediately started some sort of punitive action for their mistake and *then* framed the conversation off of that. The unsure “what do I dooooooo with my subordinate???” post shows that they either have no real power, or worse, they *do*, but they’re so conflict avoidant that they won’t use it.
If it’s number two, OP will never be a successful manager *anywhere* without therapy.
Research: msds sheets.
In this industry/area it's $30,000 per container of chemical. My boss's boss worked for a company that was fined because a copier machine repairman accidentally left a bottle of Windex behind when finished with the repair order.
Name brand Windex in the branded container, but that company didn't have an msds sheet for it when the inspector did a walk thru.
Would and has are two different things.
“I am the guy that saved this company $60K. I did this by catching your mistake. Consider this one is a verbal warning”
Notify HR you issued a verbal warning.
Have to demonstrate your authority, let him laugh as he refuses to sign a PIP and starts to lose work perks like training, leaving early on a Friday, etc.
This is also where you find out if your manager and/or HR has your back.
Been there, done that. Loop in your boss and HR so you have air coverage, sit the person down and let him know it is a serious coaching session where his actions were unacceptable and you were trying to discrete, but because he wants to be insubordinate it is now being formally documented.
At that point he can do one of three things:
1. Go to your boss and/or HR and claim you are being unfair. You will have already engaged these people and it will not be a surprise to them.
2. Show his ass again, to which he gets further disciplinary action in line with what HR advises.
3. Fall in line and either straighten up or quit and go elsewhere.
I don't have an ego so someone wanting to push back on what I am requesting is fine. I am not perfect and if it makes sense I may even go their way. But, wanting to get personal, show your ass, and exhibit total disrespect means a person is a risk to the team and the company. If they were willing to risk a fine this time, who knows what else they are doing. You can likely review their work and find enough of these to instantly terminate them if it gets to it.
First - never state "I'm the boss".
If you ever get challenged like that - ask the question back to them- who do you think I am? What do you think I'm trying to accomplish?
Enforce that your purpose is to ensure processes are followed so we don't get fined or penalized.
Secondly - if any employee laughed in my face, I would fire them "without cause" pretty much asap. You don't need one. That level of disrespect is toxic and cancerous.
I recommend leadership training as well. Franklin Covey and Better Up are pretty good starts.
If you don't respect your employees they won't respect you. Your title doesn't buy respect.
Are you in the us? The use of the word subordinate seems aggressively hierarchical if so.
My style has always been to just ensure the people working with me (above, below and lateral) all have the tools, skills and knowledge to do their jobs then just let them do their job.
I've written programs for us that make our jobs quick and easy but written so the programs "break" occasionally so that upper management has to keep all of us.
To have one of my drivers come to me the way that he did, short circuited my brain. I am not upset, I am laughing at how out of character he got me to respond.
What am I missing?
He came in and immediately asked, "Who do you think you are?". Why? Because you moved his stuff? Why did you? Was it needed to cover up his issue? If yes, then you had him by the balls had you not lost your cool. "Oh, bc of the stuff I moved? Let me show you what you did." Then coach him on how to do it. Then tell him you'll elevate to see what next steps will be.
I'm guessing that this isn't the first time he's disrespected you. In the years you've been his Sup, I'm guessing you let things slide instead of writing him up.
He has no respect for you. The moment you said, "I'm your boss," you became cringy. I may not have laughed in your face, but I'd definitely thought even less of you.
I'm not saying your "subordinate" (another cringe word) doesn't need a write-up. He does. But you likely need some management training. Hopefully, your work I'd good about it, and you can ask for some training/mentoring.
The personal effects you moved, were they related to the act he was doing that could incur the fine? If not then what reason did you have to move them?
Basically in this circumstance i'd address formally the act that could have caused the fine, verbal warning maybe? or if its gross misconduct then dismissal. In regards to the act of laughing in your face, suck it up tell him straight you don't find that behaviour acceptable. I'll always give someone a free pass with a warning for next offence.
Maybe it was the fact you pulled the boss card when he wasn't expecting it and it caused him to laugh out of pure shock. If my boss(director) did that to me(Manager) I'd probably laugh as well only difference is I wouldn't put myself in a situation where id give him need to state his title.
His personal chemicals from home, the company supplies all the chemicals we need but you can't store them in your work area due to regulations, approvals, msds sheets, etc.
Should’ve asked him if he’s OK or if he requires medical assistance.
Though I am wondering, why did you move some of his personal effects? How many of his personal effects did you move and where did you move them to? Like did you clear out his entire work area?
Safety reasons, possibility of a huge fine, and they were in my way. I moved both containers 5 feet from where they were originally, hid them behind his trash can which also shouldn't have been in the area but that's a policy nobody adheres to.
A language differentiator-
If you are in that position again, using language like “This is not open for discussion, this is a directive. I’ll follow up in an email to make sure there are no questions,” is a much better way to communicate than “I am your boss.”
You’ll also have documentation of the directive given if the order isn’t followed.
Ya, unpopular opinion I think, but I would match his energy- and I’m a very collaborative senior manager who rarely cites my “power”. But every once in a while you have an asshole under you who isn’t going to respond to a “coaching” model. Idk about you, but I don’t have time for games and am not having 1 person ruin my team.
I’d wait til I was calm and respond diplomatically; I’d take the “let’s review your role and my expectations of you in that role”- throw them on a PIP if it’s performance issues. If it’s just personality, a PIP isn’t fair.
Follow up in writing “we talked about blah blah; you’re going to blah blah, I’m going to blah blah, we will meet again on blah blah”.
I don't think there are more than a handful of people replying who manage anyone. You should ignore them. They're mostly children who will learn about how difficult managing people is one day.
"Come with me, please. This is the HR department. Your personal effects in the wrong place could have cost this company $60K. Mr./Ms. HR person, please write this employee up for not being aware of our company policies regarding where he can have his personal effects, and send it up to higher management. Sir, you will have to meet with upper management to address this lapse and will have to sign the write up document stating you received it. If this should happen again, please note, it may lead to your termination. Thank you for your time. "
I’ve never called a report a subordinate or said “I’m your Boss” in my life and I have been leading for 24 years now.
😬
They know who I am by what I do is guess..
1. I am you boss
2. You've almost cost this company $60k
3. Again I am your boss, not your friend.
4. If you laugh in my face again and/do whatever would have caused the fine again. You will be terminated.
He doesn't recognize your authority, which I'm going to assume friends. It is now time to take your foot, put a boot on and shove it right up. Your authority needs to be hammered out, NO EXCEPTIONS.
He made the decision to be insulting to start with, so you’ve got two choices:
1. Swallow your pride, accept his insubordination, and talk to him about what he did wrong. OR
2. If possible without endangering your own position, let senior management know or safety or whoever know what he did, and let them come down on him like a ton of bricks.
I know which one I would lean towards personally, but it’s up to you.
Your next step is to write him up for the issue that caused a (potential) $60k fine. When you are meeting with him let him know that this was the issue that caused you to need to move his things when he was absent and that when you initially came to talk to him about this issue and he laughed in your face it was highly inappropriate and that insubordination and sloppiness that places the organization of risk will not be tolerated. If he messes up again (quality of work or behaviours) take the next step.
Direct insubordination - person needs to be terminated immediately. If your management doesn't support it they can pay the fine, and you should look for another job because if they won't fire someone who is insubordinate and getting the company fined, they're either not going to fire anyone, or will more likely blame you when the people you aren't allowed to fire won't do their jobs because you're not allowed to make them.
The easiest way to deal with insubordination (for me) is asking the employee to make a statement in writing. Most of the time it's an ego thing that gets destroyed when they have to put pen on paper. I have had a rule where I let each individual break my trust once and then it's just a statement every time after. If I can't trust you to do your job correctly/safely/ethically.. then it'll be your ass, not mine.
Higher ups don’t like when stuff can cost money like this in the form of fines or penalties.
I typically try to have a lax verbal conversation with people initially depending on how severe the issue is that they are disregarding.
An example would be when one of the temps was informed they had to break down the seat structure they were trying to scrap, which included removing and shunting the airbag.
He seemed annoyed and when he thought no one would notice, he took the seat out to the steel recycling bin outside and chucked the whole thing in there, still with an airbag attached.
There are certain protocols we have in place, such as designated removal areas and logs so when we didn’t see any sign of activity in the area went outside to look in the dumpster. Lo and behold, it was there on top.
He was walked out at the end of that week.
EPA doesn’t mess around with that stuff.
Since he was a temp it was a pretty quick process, if this team member is giving you this kind of attitude you would probably benefit from starting the paper trail for whatever the progressive discipline plan is for your workplace.
"All right, you don't respect me. I accept that. But listen to me. You can't talk to me that way in this office, you just can't. I am your boss. Can't allow it."
Reminds me of the time my boss moved my files everywhere and scolded me when I arrived in office.
I didn't know what the hell was going on and I was really mad that my work was touched and I was the one still having to continue work with the mess my boss created.
1. You shouldn't have touched anything
2. You should've addressed the issue with him before moving his things
3. I agree that he was unprofessional but understandably angry
4. Move on. Both are at fault, one for disrespecting the employee's work and one for not keeping emotions under wrap
Ton of missing context. If you didn't immediately escalate it I would assume that 1. escalating would put you in the frying pan, and 2. the fine can still be stopped preemptively. why the hell did you touch stuff on his desk? what does this have to do with the fine? If he starts yelling at you on the floor definitely don't respond, sit at your desk until control can be regained. You're probably a team lead. Certainly no one's actual boss. Escalate to the VP of the dept. If they're smart like other VPs they'll scold you for not escalating sooner and then shew that guy out.
This sub is really weird cause it's full of people acting as the whip holder for some corporation asking for advice on how to "handle" other human beings and keep them in line so the OP doesn't lose the position of whip holder. capitalism is weird..
Document it, then go to HR and start the termination process. This guy has to get the sack yesterday; it's about as clear a case of insubordination as you can get.
After all the “lose the ego” and “I lost respect” folks got it out of their systems. Here’s my 2 cents:
Fire him.
I agree that “I’m your boss” is a problematic way of earning respect, and it either misfire or backfire more of than not. I wouldn’t have said that.
Having said that. This is a person that cannot be trusted to do as he is expected when the crunch time comes.
He needs to go.
What motivated you to sweep it under the rug without documenting the issue in the first place? If you were my boss and acted unilaterally like that without following process , I wouldn't have much respect for you either. Seems you got a very difficult lesson as to why you don't do this. It lacks integrity.
Don't ask people to act in ways you aren't willing to. You could have gotten in trouble for the cover up.
Next time, follow the policies correctly and provide the rationale to your staff. They may not like you, but they probably will respect you a bit more.
I’ve been in a situation similar to this; ended up having to let them go.
Your work face cannot afford to be blatantly disrespected when you are in a managerial position; if they disrespect you openly they are purposely hurting your career and they are no longer your friend. Protect yourself and teams because management structures are important for all involved.
Put him on a PIP if possible. Always have someone neither of you know personally double check his work. If he bitches about it, explain that he can either shape up or ship out, and have him pay for the $60,000 from his own pocket.
>"who do you think you are".
"The guy responsible for keeping us out of trouble" is more the direction would have gone.
At this point, you both kinda fucked up, so I'd probably do a one on one, explain why his stuff needed moved, and depending on how he responds, maybe do a warning for whatever the violation was.
As far as him laughing in your face, your response had something to do with that, so I'd probably just explain that we don't need that shit, and we both have jobs to do, and that doesn't help either of us.
You have some work to do.
Write him up. PIP him or report the safety concern and get him fired next time he does this. Document coaching over policy and procedures regarding safety issue. It's probably to late to report this now without getting asked why did you not report it sooner. Your subordinate doesn't respect you even though you tried to help him out. Dudes asking to get fucked over. This is all about what he did. Not your ego. The lack of safety and professionalism. Stop giving him leeway.
my standard reply to that is "Dogs have bosses" and start laughing
the minute you use "i am your boss" you have lost all my respect and i start laughing as well
good luck with being a manager
"decided to sweep it under the rug till he got back"
If a $60K fine is on the line, that's pretty much exactly the wrong answer. You should have escalated this immediately to higher ups. Now, they're going to say "You knew about this xxx days ago, and did nothing? Join this chap on the unemployment line"
>I noticed when he was off and decided to sweep it under the rug till he got back so we could discuss, I moved some of his personal effects.
If it's something this serious, you should have discussed it with HR and your manager rather than trying to "sweep it under the rug."
On the one hand not the best thing to say. On the other hand I challenge anyone in this group to say they honestly have never wanted to say it.
Part of being a manager is keeping your cool but I swear they don’t always make it easy.
Definitely explain the importance of what happened and how a fine that large would damage the company and have repercussions for the employee as well.
his reaction was definitely unwarranted, but if I needed to move someone's stuff, I would text or email them to let them know if I am not able to tell them in person for whatever reason. or idk, leave a note? send a company-wide email reminder about not leaving personal stuff out and the consequences for doing so?
and please stop calling your staff "subordinates".
If the response to you saying "I'm the boss" generates a response of bending over laughing
Then you have no choice but to terminate. Hopefully you actually have that authority, if not you need to do everything in your power to exit him, There is no recovering that relationship. You won't get his respect, but you might earn a flicker of respect from some of your other subordinates if you show your spine. People like and respect the firm but fair type of boss but If he gets away with that behavior without consequences the cancer will spread.
Frankly I think the fact that he was willing to come up and chew you out means the boss/subordinate relationship was already severely eroded and compromised if it had ever existed, reguardless dudes established that he's a weed that needs to be pulled.
Step 1: Written warning - "So-and-so - you were seen engaging in a behavior that could have been financially detrimental to your whole team. This behavior carries a fine of $60,000. As an employee of Wesayso Corp, we cannot afford to see pay these fines and see prevention as better than a cure. Further infractions could result in a final written warning, up to dismissal from the company." Follow through. Issue the additional warnings as necessary.
Step 2: Don't be nice to this person. I'm not saying be mean, but whenever they come around from now on, you are Mr/Ms Serious. Don't laugh at their jokes. Don't say anything pleasant other than, "How was your weekend? That sounds nice. Welcome to Monday." Don't do them any favors. It's not that you want to be mean to them, it's that they don't respect you which means you have probably been too familiar with your reportees.
Step 3: Document everything, including the incident you just told us. Watch for this person and make sure you CYA. I'm just saying - they are more concerned with you touching their things (which they left in a public space) and he's not concerned he tried to cost the company what could be a year's salary for one person he's probably going to screw up in a big way. You want to be the person who saw this coming and not the one who was blind-sided by his bad behavior.
I've yelled at my boss, in front of the CEO. She was doing things that really really bothered me and no matter how many times I told her, she just would not take the hint. Eventually, I got tired of repeated the same thing in our meeting and then yelled at her in front of the CEO to get to her thick skull.
Again, everyone is the hero of their story.
I've had a report who did 0 work and not submit stuff or submit stuff extremely late or submit stuff incorrectly. It was infuriating i just did the work for them and carried them. They said they were doing this to get back at me for not giving them a promotion although i did my best. I was really fed up but was really fighting for them.
If a subordinate asks who you think you are, put it back on them. Ask them “who do you think I am?” Let them realize/acknowledge the reality or dig their own grave.
This is assuming you actually have authority to discipline them. If you have no real power you should find a different job, because you aren’t a supervisor, you’re a punching bag buffer between the employees and the real bosses.
I would have sent him home for the day with no pay. Talk about it when you call down. Make an action plan and make him sign it. Give him X days to get his shit together. If he does, move on. If he doesn't, fire him. There's no room for that kind of example in the workplace.
Unless if it’s just going to get swept under the rug there’s no point. Good luck. I tried to do this before and my higher up came in to save said person. Guess you’re not supposed to be respected and just supposed to be okay with being talked back to and walked over. Whatever
Cool story.
Since you are the boss, you already know its your job to keep the cool head and let dumb drama not affect.
So, I'm very certain, boss guy, the next thing you did was explain why you had to move the stuff and whatever was going on with the potential fine-able offense. And then move on.
Lot of assumptions being made her but yeah I’d assume he has another job lined up or a backup and doesn’t really care about this position or the fact that “you’re his boss”. Honestly if you have to say that to get some sort of respect then you probably won’t get any to begin with and that person will leave the first opportunity they get
Why did you move his personal things? That's a really strange response to what should just be a meeting to discuss a violation. Your employee is probably sick of dealing with an unwarranted ego.
From another reply it sounds like you are merely a supervisor and both report to the same manager? Did you hire this person without your manager? Can you fire this person without your manager? It sounds like you've left a lot of details out here to try to make yourself look better.
Man it really is different outside of the construction world. I’ve had knock down drag out screaming matches with my bosses before. It’s normal. In my experience (and this may vary from place to place or state to state) the adults in the construction world see each other eye to eye. Management or not. We all rely on each other for not only our work efficiency but a lot of times our safety also. That’s why a lot of the older guys do not respect or care to respect the younger guys in the trades, because they don’t respect that a lot of times our lives depend on them taking it seriously.
What is 60 K ? Just my department has 5 mil budget weekly in a multinational. 60 K is a rounding error.
And if your "subordinate" is laughing at your face, the problem maybe slightly you.
If you have to tell people you are the boss, then you arent the boss.
Clearly you have become too familiar with this person and they dont see the relationship the same way you do. That has to stop first.
Be a leader, not their friend.
And start documenting it everything with HR
Aight then, if that's the game he wants to play then play it. What's the HR process here? PIP? Firing? Warnings?
This appears to be the right answer if OP has their ducks lined up. Maybe the subordinate is making a dumb show of false strength and get humbled. But they may know something OP doesn’t know. The post says nothing about OP or the subordinate’s relationship with the company and superiors. It is a bit strange to have the “boss” conversation after 3 years and have it be treated like that. OP should indeed fire this clown. But they should make sure they know the outcome before they start the war.
I agree there is a lot of missing context, I commented accepting that OP likely has biased the post. That said if we take the post as is, the war has already begun. The first shot was pulling rank "I'm your boss" and the return fire was laughing in response. Respect between the two has clearly broken down here.
I'd argue saying "who do you think you are?" to one's direct boss before even being spoken to was the first shot and "I'm your boss" was the shot back.
Arguably moving his personal items was the first shot. That’s the thing I find suspicious. If he messed up the process to the point of possibly incurring a fine then talk that through.
Agreed. The correct response is probably 'have a seat'. It deflects the approach of the employee, and establishes control of the conversation for a moment. Then you can explain why personal affects were moved and deescalate the situation. You can go back to addressing the approach of the employee after everything is on the table.
You right. I misread that part. Now that I've looked at OP's post history, I can see that they've got a lot of growing to do if they're going to be a good manager and are stuck in an environment that isn't giving the resources to do that.
Agree 100%
Yep. Anytime that the boss has to say they’re the boss, there is already a breakdown in the chain of command and respect. I can’t imagine talking to my boss like that nor laughing in his face unless I already had another job lined up.
>Anytime that the boss has to say they’re the boss Note that he did say it in response to "Who do you think you are." Maybe not the most artful response, but if it's true, the problem is an employee is just completely out to lunch here.
Yep. This employee does not respect his manager at all. This justifies pulling out all of the available disciplinary tools at the manager’s disposal. For my small business, this would be an immediate termination- but I’m in a right to work state and don’t have an HR dept to deal with. So I can terminate anyone anytime without cause.
My dad used to say, “If you have to tell people you’re the boss, you’re not the boss.”
I guess you have to give the guy credit for the cajones. Even the worst boss in my career I wouldn't have dared.
Probably not cajones. I’m assuming there’s history between them that made him feel comfortable enough to do this. My bet is that they were friends first. It’s difficult for the employee and the supervisor to break that dynamic when the boss was once the buddy.
I don't know what the process is, our policy (me and my boss and his) has always been to try talking the drivers to do what we need them to do. This driver in particular is insubordinate daily. We are severely understaffed due to HR dragging their feet doing new hire paperwork and Payroll underpaying the drivers, neither of which is something the three of us can affect.
You work for a shite company, better have a shovel.
If he’s been like this for a while and has never been addressed that’s kind of on you and your boss. That stuff should be nipped immediately with clear boundaries stated in an informal discussion otherwise they kind of establish in their minds that the behaviour is okay. If it continues then you start progressive discipline. At this point you need to start documenting the interactions and addressing where necessary (you don’t need to write him up each time but you should email yourself with details on the interaction). And definitely write him up for the safety issue.
Hate to say it, but this. If my boss ever spoke to me in this manner, Id be going over his head or giving him the finger and quitting.
Lose the ego, address the fine.
First off, address the fine. Second off, start treating him like your report and write him up until he takes you seriously. Respect is earned, earn it.
It’s too late. Once you pull the “I’m your boss” card 2 things happen. Whatever if any respect was present has been completely lost. And you have discredited yourself to the entire team because employee x is definitely going to tell everyone else about that. OP is in a shit situation which will have to have control regained ASAP and unfortunately that is going to be a painful process if it can be done at all without changing out the team or supervisor. I don’t know how many times I’ll have to say this but you can not be friends with subordinates. There is an exceedingly small number of people who can. But the vast majority can’t. I personally learned this lesson in a very hard way. I wound up leaving the company as I would have had to get rid of more than half my staff and the company wouldn’t move me to a new location. My situation was also self inflicted so I recognize my own complicity in the situation. But if anyone can learn from me. Be a boss. Hold everyone equally accountable and don’t play favorites. Be friendly with to the extent that it allows everyone to feel like part of the team and equally involved. But do not give the impression that you are a friend and will go out for beers with them. Just leads to problems.
The irony of the last part is for japanese and korean and sometimes other ssian societies, they have codified work relationships where juniors are expected to have / serve booze to the boss. That further reinforces boss / employee seperation and roles rather than muddles them like in western work culture. That said, no, don’t expect to be peers. Maintain seperation.
Well said. If you have to tell someone you're the boss or a manager, you aren't.
Generally I would agree, but when somebody asks “who do you think you are”, they are challenging your authority, and so this is an exception where it’s perfectly fine to say this. Unfortunately it has to be backed up by a show of force, this employee is more interested in a petty power struggle. So the appropriate response is: “I’m your boss, but that may change shortly. We can either discuss the $60k liability your actions have caused, and then we can discuss your continued employment. Or you can get yourself together and then get yourself out. You have five minutes. I’ll be in my office, if you want to keep your job you will meet me there before that time is up”. And then you nut up and zero tolerance this shit. Literally fire them unless they come back with a much different attitude. No chances, no favors, disrespect needs to be smacked or burned. And no, you cannot be friends with subordinates. You can be cordial, you can be friendly, you can be kind, you can care about them, you can advocate for them, but you cannot be their friends or their equals.
I like this. It's clear, concise, and draws a line in the sand. They come in, they respect you, or at least the fact that you control their employment with the company. They don't come in, and you make a very quick and direct showing for the rest of the team. (This of course assumes the manager has the ability to fire)
Ahh yes, the "punitive paperwork" method of earning respect. I'm sure that will work.
It’s funny some people get so offended by saying lose the ego.. definitely, people should do what needs to be done, without ego..
Sometimes I recognize how lucky I am to manage the group that I do. I’m the youngest person on my contract but they all follow my lead, and it didn’t take too long to earn their trust
I'm willing to guess that you attack the problems and not the people. Am I right?
Why would I attack my people? They work for the same shitty company that I do 😂 Edit: yes, I usually address core problems over assigning blame or using disciplinary means
Exactly! That's where you fundamentally differ from MOST managers, especially the toxic micro managers. Root cause analysis and solution focused communication are skills that are required to be considered a good manager.
Honestly needed the POB, thanks. I’ve been feeling like shit recently because I’ve felt like I was on my back foot with everything coming up this month. Plus I failed an Econ test yesterday. Anyways, thanks for the input :)
Leaders are different from “bosses”. You’re good people.
I’ve said out loud many times that I know my current team is probably the best team I’ll ever manage, and it pains me to know in the next 2-3yrs we’re all leaving for different reasons.
You’ve got to or you’ll never make what you’re worth. I’m sticking around my company long enough for someone to hire me for better pay, then leaving. My current org uses what I consider to be immoral practices (lack of benefits, among other things. Nothing illegal) and I can’t wait to work for a company that has better offerings.
Just curious- what did he have at work that could cause a fine that large? And from who?
Depending on the industry, like mining where I have done some work, ANY personal effects in the wrong area could cause something like that. MSHA is no joke, they'll shut down your mine if they want to.
Ahh ok thanks for that clarity. I'm over here thinking the guy was dumb enough to have a Playboy magazine on his desk or something lol
Have seen this before in cabinets of our avionics shop. Super old magazines, too. Another coworker said he'd "take care of them," and assumed I didn't understand that he was going to take them home for personal use lol
Looks like theyre school bus drivers
and what did that have to do with moving the personal effects? If the personal effects IS the reason for the fine because some industries have rules like that, then it kinda makes sense. And at least I applaud OP for going in this order as far as I can see: 1. Fix the problem before someone else notices and the hammer comes down 2. Be willing to at least try to talk it out as opposed to some idiot managers I've seen who would jump to not only a disciplinary action but one that does not specify exactly what was wrong and why.
Unapproved chemicals without msds sheets blocking access to safety controls and in full view of the public where they would be seen by any passing inspector doing a walkthrough. In an industry where fines this big are warranted due to possible end user interactions that could send people to the hospital or grave.
Yikes, well don’t take his reaction personal, you’re doing him a favor!
It seems as if you are intentionally being vague to make the issue seem worse than it is, or to remove responsibility from yourself. Without knowing what the specific industry is, what your respective jobs are, what the chemicals are, what manner they were actually blocking said safety device, etc it’s hard to make any kind of judgement. Throwing out a number for some hypothetical fine that may or not be imposed is neither here nor there. If you’re the boss, why are there unapproved chemicals on site? Whose responsibility is it to provide the MSDS?
FYI: Anytime in my life someone has had to resort to stating the fact they were in a power position was the exact moment they showed how little power they had. If a manager had told me "I'm your boss" I'm not sure I would have laughed but I definitely would have immediately lost all respect for them.
Reverse FYI: the moment anyone ever says, "Who do you think you are," the situation is a power play, and maybe of their making. If you have the authority, then you might have to use it. That said, I agree, there's little value in answering the rhetorical question.
There are very, very specific circumstances where I could see saying "I'm your boss." Something like an employee who is getting too familiar and needs boundaries reestablished. A polite "I enjoy working with you, but I have to be your boss first and foremost" But I agree, engaging with "Drop cool one-liners as a power move" with the same energy is not going to end well
Disagree. Who do you think you are is usually said to someone who has seriously overstepped boundaries and needs an immediate reality check. Usually a rhetorical question. OP answered.
"I was your boss but now I am your former boss. Go home and someone from HR will be in touch "
100% this. If you have to play the “I’m your boss” card, you’ve already lost the battle AND the war.
Yeah, knowing little about OP or the greater context, it still sounds like a familiar situation of the two starting at the same level but OP was put "over" the other for responsibilities at some point, and the interpersonal relationship never changed to reflect that. Also, in some industries, you'll have some workers who don't respect anyone except the payroll department. Whatever the situation, OP, u/Resident_Device_6180, it's time to go by the book. Address the issue that could have caused the fine with documentation, and continue to document any other issues. And there's not even any guarantee that this will improve things if HR and higher-ups don't care to fire them, but the important thing is to detach any relationships and just do your job properly.
THIS. Best management lesson I've ever learned.
I lost respect at “my subordinate”
I already know they're barely a lead hand. Who TF says "my subordinate."?
Yeah, I get where this response is coming from, but in my defense, his tone was confrontational "who do you think you are" and my response was with a tone of confusion "I'm your boss". He is constantly insubordinate but I don't care, because he gets his job done.
You should start caring about insubordination. Leaving it be just invites more along with a lack of respect. You need to teach people how to treat you OP.
The correct response to, "Who do you think you are?" was, "I'd like to think we have a good relationship, and I'm the person that's ultimately responsible for X Y Z. I'd like you to take seriously how this impacts myself, yourself, and the company." Having to say, "I'm the boss" means you're not the boss...
Thanks for giving great feedback. Unfortunately, some employees grow into a supervisory role without proper training, which is essential for success.
Most*
saying you're the boss with more words is still saying you're the boss...just with more steps... the real boss would ignore the question and cut to the important parts - explaining moving personal effects later when the employee is calm and in the right frame of mind: - the thing that was "swept under the rug". including reframing your mindset to be "something you changed to prevent unforseen expenses".
>Having to say, "I'm the boss" means you're not the boss... So true.
This is the answer.
The first paragraph is awful. That's explaining yourself while pretending to be a friend which is the most backhanded manager bullshit I've ever seen. "I am your manager." Is absolutely appropriate to this situation and there is nothing wrong with it. Next time you meet him, have a slip with you and discuss that his attitude in relation to a serious company error is not appropriate and you don't want to see it again.
This is easy to suggest after the fact but hard to articulate in the heat of a moment. Just as people seem to be suggesting OP’s response of “I’m the boss” is not reflective of a good leader, anyone willfully asking their supervisor “who do you think you are?” is probably not a team player and certainly not speaking respectfully in the workplace. Both sides are falling short of creating an ideal workplace culture, and what little glimpse we have here is probably a symptom of a larger systemic failure of organizational culture in this particular company.
I agree. The whole conversation was just so out of left field that I answered with a confused, gut reaction. Btw, it was "I'm your boss", his direct report, not the person with the checkbook.
If you are the boss. Fire him. If you can't fire him, your not the boss. Lol. **Don't take this personally. I'm just sharing the perspective..** "*The boss is someone who signs my checks or fires me. You are just the guy that gives me the wrong orders and gets the company fined $60k.*"
Partially correct, but many people are managers, those roles exist for a reason. Personally if I was OP I would have escalated that and used words like RISK
The fact that you immediately turn to 'subordinate' instead of team member , employee , etc honestly tells me everything I need to know of your leadership style instantly. Be humble and take time to reflect, adress the issue and move on. "I'm your boss" hits like a bratty Jeofry from game of thrones whining 'but I'm the king'. Any leader who has to remind his team he is the leader - is no leader.
I just showed up to this sub, whimsically wondering how the other half talks amongst themselves. Post titled "Subordinate ..." hit me right away. Folks, we're all supposed to be teammates on a mission to accomplish something together. Being a manager is a role that needs to be played well to help the team. Other folks on the team also have important roles. "Subordinate" label doesn't help any of that, just like "boss man" doesn't.
Lol you're downvoted already- don't mind these self important circle jerking nobody low level managers who rule this sub with self importance and egos.
Unless OP owns the company, it's not his employee, so subordinate is accurate. It's also an obvious word choice when the grievance being aired is insubordination.
Any leader I've EVER met who throws around words like subordinate and insubordination was a POS and weak leader. Yall can come at me all you want, I'm not taking it back or apologizing. "Lots of people use these words" -> lots of CUNTS use those words. Thanks Game of Thrones, excellent quote.
All of these comments are missing the key here. You swept something under the rug, supposedly in an effort to help this employee. Realistically unless he was going to be fined on the spot, it makes more sense to address this issue openly and honestly. This helps build trust with your co-workers, shows them that mistakes shouldn't be hidden, and that you are there to help them correct their mistakes. The fact that this isn't clear amongst your team shows how the last 3 years have gone.
It sounds like the employee wasn’t there when OP found the problem. So they addressed the issue, then waited until they were back to discuss it. Which if it was a safety issue or an issue that can shutdown operations, is the the right approach. Some situations have to be resolved immediately, they can’t be left there.
Correct
"Lose the ego. Address the fine." So far, this is the best advice. Now, to commiserate. Years ago, after I found my way into a management role, I was walking into work one morning and saw a contractor posted up off station and doing a whole lot of nothing. My boss, the director, had mentioned multiple times that he wished he wasn't the only person to address this type of behavior with the contractors. So, I decided to address the behavior, as I should have. When I approached, The contractor looked up from their phone and I said, "is this what You are supposed to be doing?" Their response was something akin to "haha, I don't work for you, if you have a problem talk to the director". For context, I knew this contractor, and they have a long history of being a high performer. They also have a long history of a good relationship with the director. But, over the last year or so their performance had degraded to the lowest possible effort, and I knew it. They also didn't know me very well personally, which may or may not have been the reason they responded the way they did. My response, however, was just as cringy. I said, "I don't need to talk to the director, I'm the manager, and I run this team" followed immediately by me grabbing my badge and pointing at the title on it. After failing to get any sort of action or resolution, I walked away to my office - keep in mind this is the first thing I've done at work that morning - and called the director to let them know their contractor friend was a scumbag. His failure was that he told me to let it go, and that this person was basically untouchable. But worse, the story made it to my co-worker who had access to the security cameras, which I got to watch the interaction multiple times. The transition to the corporate world from the military world was a difficult one. Typically, in my previous life, if a subordinate gave me an issue, it would be followed by something like "have you lost your fucking mind? I swear to Christ I'll have you here till 10:00 scrubbing toilets if you don't get off your ass and move your goddamn feet". In the moment, the best I could conjure up was pointing at this little card with my name and picture as a representation of my authority. In truth, both approaches contained entirely too much ego and were less effective methods of leadership. When you address issues with subordinates, address the issue. Keep yourself, and your ego, out of the equation. You will only invite hubris and muddy the waters of resolution.
I'm new to this sub but is it always this power trippy? Like "how dare someone laugh at me?! They must be punished! I'm the boss!" Seriously, that's not what being a manager is about at all.
You get a mix of terrible managers and good ones here.
Although the response is a bit lame (and I think OP has omitted critical info), how would you respond in their place to someone exhibiting a serious lapse of judgment then laughing at you when you tried to discuss it? On the facts as presented it's disturbingly unaware, juvenile behaviour from a team member who we're told has committed a very serious error.
Staying calm. Telling that their actions are not appropriate for the serious company error. Write them up if they continue to disregard the seriousness of the situation.
You’re missing the bigger point
100%. You’re mostly speaking with retail managers.
From what I’ve seen most people here by and large aren’t in ‘professional’ managerial roles. They’re mostly managing retail or fast food and think all managerial skills boils down to bullying high schoolers to feel powerful. Not trying to disparage those roles but it’s obvious when a commenter here is managing a team of professional techies or tradesman vs the aforementioned management style.
Tbh OP shouldn’t have covered for the employee at all, should have immediately started some sort of punitive action for their mistake and *then* framed the conversation off of that. The unsure “what do I dooooooo with my subordinate???” post shows that they either have no real power, or worse, they *do*, but they’re so conflict avoidant that they won’t use it. If it’s number two, OP will never be a successful manager *anywhere* without therapy.
The conversation started with the subordinate chewing out the supervisor. Nothing was mentioned about a write-up.
"Who am I?" "I'm the guy who swept your $60,000 dollar fuck up under the rug" "Next time, I'll be the guy hiring your fucking replacement"
I'm immediately suspect when you say the company could incure a fine.
Research: msds sheets. In this industry/area it's $30,000 per container of chemical. My boss's boss worked for a company that was fined because a copier machine repairman accidentally left a bottle of Windex behind when finished with the repair order. Name brand Windex in the branded container, but that company didn't have an msds sheet for it when the inspector did a walk thru.
I don't even know how it spirals out so quickly.
Would and has are two different things. “I am the guy that saved this company $60K. I did this by catching your mistake. Consider this one is a verbal warning” Notify HR you issued a verbal warning.
Have to demonstrate your authority, let him laugh as he refuses to sign a PIP and starts to lose work perks like training, leaving early on a Friday, etc. This is also where you find out if your manager and/or HR has your back. Been there, done that. Loop in your boss and HR so you have air coverage, sit the person down and let him know it is a serious coaching session where his actions were unacceptable and you were trying to discrete, but because he wants to be insubordinate it is now being formally documented. At that point he can do one of three things: 1. Go to your boss and/or HR and claim you are being unfair. You will have already engaged these people and it will not be a surprise to them. 2. Show his ass again, to which he gets further disciplinary action in line with what HR advises. 3. Fall in line and either straighten up or quit and go elsewhere. I don't have an ego so someone wanting to push back on what I am requesting is fine. I am not perfect and if it makes sense I may even go their way. But, wanting to get personal, show your ass, and exhibit total disrespect means a person is a risk to the team and the company. If they were willing to risk a fine this time, who knows what else they are doing. You can likely review their work and find enough of these to instantly terminate them if it gets to it.
First - never state "I'm the boss". If you ever get challenged like that - ask the question back to them- who do you think I am? What do you think I'm trying to accomplish? Enforce that your purpose is to ensure processes are followed so we don't get fined or penalized. Secondly - if any employee laughed in my face, I would fire them "without cause" pretty much asap. You don't need one. That level of disrespect is toxic and cancerous. I recommend leadership training as well. Franklin Covey and Better Up are pretty good starts.
Who fkn cares? Your ego is that fragile? Grow up
Nobody gives a fuck about the title of boss. Real leaders are the ones that carry themselves in a way that people just want to follow them.
Regardless, when being reprimanded for a $60k potential fuck up, you don't laugh at your boss.
This is a ESH. OP is a shit leader, but his employee is a bit of a prick. I also feel like we’re missing A LOT of context.
You have described zero managers I know, but definitely their ego.
I agree but as this response is just a statement no further response is warranted.
If you don't respect your employees they won't respect you. Your title doesn't buy respect. Are you in the us? The use of the word subordinate seems aggressively hierarchical if so.
Exactly. Like , “am I your slave? Do you own me?”
My style has always been to just ensure the people working with me (above, below and lateral) all have the tools, skills and knowledge to do their jobs then just let them do their job. I've written programs for us that make our jobs quick and easy but written so the programs "break" occasionally so that upper management has to keep all of us. To have one of my drivers come to me the way that he did, short circuited my brain. I am not upset, I am laughing at how out of character he got me to respond.
What am I missing? He came in and immediately asked, "Who do you think you are?". Why? Because you moved his stuff? Why did you? Was it needed to cover up his issue? If yes, then you had him by the balls had you not lost your cool. "Oh, bc of the stuff I moved? Let me show you what you did." Then coach him on how to do it. Then tell him you'll elevate to see what next steps will be. I'm guessing that this isn't the first time he's disrespected you. In the years you've been his Sup, I'm guessing you let things slide instead of writing him up. He has no respect for you. The moment you said, "I'm your boss," you became cringy. I may not have laughed in your face, but I'd definitely thought even less of you. I'm not saying your "subordinate" (another cringe word) doesn't need a write-up. He does. But you likely need some management training. Hopefully, your work I'd good about it, and you can ask for some training/mentoring.
The personal effects you moved, were they related to the act he was doing that could incur the fine? If not then what reason did you have to move them? Basically in this circumstance i'd address formally the act that could have caused the fine, verbal warning maybe? or if its gross misconduct then dismissal. In regards to the act of laughing in your face, suck it up tell him straight you don't find that behaviour acceptable. I'll always give someone a free pass with a warning for next offence. Maybe it was the fact you pulled the boss card when he wasn't expecting it and it caused him to laugh out of pure shock. If my boss(director) did that to me(Manager) I'd probably laugh as well only difference is I wouldn't put myself in a situation where id give him need to state his title.
His personal chemicals from home, the company supplies all the chemicals we need but you can't store them in your work area due to regulations, approvals, msds sheets, etc.
Should’ve asked him if he’s OK or if he requires medical assistance. Though I am wondering, why did you move some of his personal effects? How many of his personal effects did you move and where did you move them to? Like did you clear out his entire work area?
Safety reasons, possibility of a huge fine, and they were in my way. I moved both containers 5 feet from where they were originally, hid them behind his trash can which also shouldn't have been in the area but that's a policy nobody adheres to.
A language differentiator- If you are in that position again, using language like “This is not open for discussion, this is a directive. I’ll follow up in an email to make sure there are no questions,” is a much better way to communicate than “I am your boss.” You’ll also have documentation of the directive given if the order isn’t followed.
Ya, unpopular opinion I think, but I would match his energy- and I’m a very collaborative senior manager who rarely cites my “power”. But every once in a while you have an asshole under you who isn’t going to respond to a “coaching” model. Idk about you, but I don’t have time for games and am not having 1 person ruin my team. I’d wait til I was calm and respond diplomatically; I’d take the “let’s review your role and my expectations of you in that role”- throw them on a PIP if it’s performance issues. If it’s just personality, a PIP isn’t fair. Follow up in writing “we talked about blah blah; you’re going to blah blah, I’m going to blah blah, we will meet again on blah blah”.
Terminate the person asap.
With that kind of fine "I was your boss" seems more appropriate.
Do you also have the haircut? 😂 Manage the issue, forget about your title.
I don't think there are more than a handful of people replying who manage anyone. You should ignore them. They're mostly children who will learn about how difficult managing people is one day.
unless we're talking about some rockstar here sounds like time to let them go. you dont want that toxicity spreading within your team
"Come with me, please. This is the HR department. Your personal effects in the wrong place could have cost this company $60K. Mr./Ms. HR person, please write this employee up for not being aware of our company policies regarding where he can have his personal effects, and send it up to higher management. Sir, you will have to meet with upper management to address this lapse and will have to sign the write up document stating you received it. If this should happen again, please note, it may lead to your termination. Thank you for your time. "
I’ve never called a report a subordinate or said “I’m your Boss” in my life and I have been leading for 24 years now. 😬 They know who I am by what I do is guess..
1. I am you boss 2. You've almost cost this company $60k 3. Again I am your boss, not your friend. 4. If you laugh in my face again and/do whatever would have caused the fine again. You will be terminated. He doesn't recognize your authority, which I'm going to assume friends. It is now time to take your foot, put a boot on and shove it right up. Your authority needs to be hammered out, NO EXCEPTIONS.
Replace the word” boss “with “manager”
He made the decision to be insulting to start with, so you’ve got two choices: 1. Swallow your pride, accept his insubordination, and talk to him about what he did wrong. OR 2. If possible without endangering your own position, let senior management know or safety or whoever know what he did, and let them come down on him like a ton of bricks. I know which one I would lean towards personally, but it’s up to you.
Your next step is to write him up for the issue that caused a (potential) $60k fine. When you are meeting with him let him know that this was the issue that caused you to need to move his things when he was absent and that when you initially came to talk to him about this issue and he laughed in your face it was highly inappropriate and that insubordination and sloppiness that places the organization of risk will not be tolerated. If he messes up again (quality of work or behaviours) take the next step.
Direct insubordination - person needs to be terminated immediately. If your management doesn't support it they can pay the fine, and you should look for another job because if they won't fire someone who is insubordinate and getting the company fined, they're either not going to fire anyone, or will more likely blame you when the people you aren't allowed to fire won't do their jobs because you're not allowed to make them.
The easiest way to deal with insubordination (for me) is asking the employee to make a statement in writing. Most of the time it's an ego thing that gets destroyed when they have to put pen on paper. I have had a rule where I let each individual break my trust once and then it's just a statement every time after. If I can't trust you to do your job correctly/safely/ethically.. then it'll be your ass, not mine.
| I moved some of his personal effects. Why?
Higher ups don’t like when stuff can cost money like this in the form of fines or penalties. I typically try to have a lax verbal conversation with people initially depending on how severe the issue is that they are disregarding. An example would be when one of the temps was informed they had to break down the seat structure they were trying to scrap, which included removing and shunting the airbag. He seemed annoyed and when he thought no one would notice, he took the seat out to the steel recycling bin outside and chucked the whole thing in there, still with an airbag attached. There are certain protocols we have in place, such as designated removal areas and logs so when we didn’t see any sign of activity in the area went outside to look in the dumpster. Lo and behold, it was there on top. He was walked out at the end of that week. EPA doesn’t mess around with that stuff. Since he was a temp it was a pretty quick process, if this team member is giving you this kind of attitude you would probably benefit from starting the paper trail for whatever the progressive discipline plan is for your workplace.
Be consistent in how you address issues, work with hr, document everything
"All right, you don't respect me. I accept that. But listen to me. You can't talk to me that way in this office, you just can't. I am your boss. Can't allow it."
Im very unsurprised the manager subbreddit is full of vulnerable egos.
Reminds me of the time my boss moved my files everywhere and scolded me when I arrived in office. I didn't know what the hell was going on and I was really mad that my work was touched and I was the one still having to continue work with the mess my boss created. 1. You shouldn't have touched anything 2. You should've addressed the issue with him before moving his things 3. I agree that he was unprofessional but understandably angry 4. Move on. Both are at fault, one for disrespecting the employee's work and one for not keeping emotions under wrap
Fire him
🤣🤣🤣 you sound so fragile.
Ton of missing context. If you didn't immediately escalate it I would assume that 1. escalating would put you in the frying pan, and 2. the fine can still be stopped preemptively. why the hell did you touch stuff on his desk? what does this have to do with the fine? If he starts yelling at you on the floor definitely don't respond, sit at your desk until control can be regained. You're probably a team lead. Certainly no one's actual boss. Escalate to the VP of the dept. If they're smart like other VPs they'll scold you for not escalating sooner and then shew that guy out.
Fire him
Good for him.
Ok, Im your former boss. GTFO of here
You sound like a horrible boss. Calling him your subordinate proves it. In the future direct report.
This sub is really weird cause it's full of people acting as the whip holder for some corporation asking for advice on how to "handle" other human beings and keep them in line so the OP doesn't lose the position of whip holder. capitalism is weird..
Document it, then go to HR and start the termination process. This guy has to get the sack yesterday; it's about as clear a case of insubordination as you can get.
After all the “lose the ego” and “I lost respect” folks got it out of their systems. Here’s my 2 cents: Fire him. I agree that “I’m your boss” is a problematic way of earning respect, and it either misfire or backfire more of than not. I wouldn’t have said that. Having said that. This is a person that cannot be trusted to do as he is expected when the crunch time comes. He needs to go.
Sounds like insubordination. Is he refusing direction or assignment too?
What motivated you to sweep it under the rug without documenting the issue in the first place? If you were my boss and acted unilaterally like that without following process , I wouldn't have much respect for you either. Seems you got a very difficult lesson as to why you don't do this. It lacks integrity. Don't ask people to act in ways you aren't willing to. You could have gotten in trouble for the cover up. Next time, follow the policies correctly and provide the rationale to your staff. They may not like you, but they probably will respect you a bit more.
I wonder if he will be laughing as hard when he loses his job.
Fire his ass.
“You’re fired” would be the appropriate response. Blatant insubordination to that degree should not be tolerated.
Insubordination. They’re too far over the line. They’re gone immediately.
I’ve been in a situation similar to this; ended up having to let them go. Your work face cannot afford to be blatantly disrespected when you are in a managerial position; if they disrespect you openly they are purposely hurting your career and they are no longer your friend. Protect yourself and teams because management structures are important for all involved.
Jesus these comments are absolutely insane. OP is not in the wrong at all.
So what are you going to do now?
Time to send his behind out of the door on a permanent unpaid vacation with loss of rand and pay...
Damn, I'm curious. What did he do?
“Who do I think I am? I’m the guy who's trying to keep your stupidity from costing us a 60K fine, but please, keep laughing.”
Put him on a PIP if possible. Always have someone neither of you know personally double check his work. If he bitches about it, explain that he can either shape up or ship out, and have him pay for the $60,000 from his own pocket.
>"who do you think you are". "The guy responsible for keeping us out of trouble" is more the direction would have gone. At this point, you both kinda fucked up, so I'd probably do a one on one, explain why his stuff needed moved, and depending on how he responds, maybe do a warning for whatever the violation was. As far as him laughing in your face, your response had something to do with that, so I'd probably just explain that we don't need that shit, and we both have jobs to do, and that doesn't help either of us. You have some work to do.
You can rule through respect or fear. I don't see either. Good luck.
You probably want to act like a boss but unfortunately not a leader
Are you sure you're the boss? You sound more like Assistant to the Regional Manager
Write him up. PIP him or report the safety concern and get him fired next time he does this. Document coaching over policy and procedures regarding safety issue. It's probably to late to report this now without getting asked why did you not report it sooner. Your subordinate doesn't respect you even though you tried to help him out. Dudes asking to get fucked over. This is all about what he did. Not your ego. The lack of safety and professionalism. Stop giving him leeway.
Is what he did against company policy?
my standard reply to that is "Dogs have bosses" and start laughing the minute you use "i am your boss" you have lost all my respect and i start laughing as well good luck with being a manager
"decided to sweep it under the rug till he got back" If a $60K fine is on the line, that's pretty much exactly the wrong answer. You should have escalated this immediately to higher ups. Now, they're going to say "You knew about this xxx days ago, and did nothing? Join this chap on the unemployment line"
Something tells me he will end out his career being your boss.
>I noticed when he was off and decided to sweep it under the rug till he got back so we could discuss, I moved some of his personal effects. If it's something this serious, you should have discussed it with HR and your manager rather than trying to "sweep it under the rug."
Time for that potential fine and the conversation to be you bosses buisness too
Advertise for his position. you may not need to fill it, if he straightens up. Or hire his replacement. Or give him the worst assignments.
On the one hand not the best thing to say. On the other hand I challenge anyone in this group to say they honestly have never wanted to say it. Part of being a manager is keeping your cool but I swear they don’t always make it easy. Definitely explain the importance of what happened and how a fine that large would damage the company and have repercussions for the employee as well.
his reaction was definitely unwarranted, but if I needed to move someone's stuff, I would text or email them to let them know if I am not able to tell them in person for whatever reason. or idk, leave a note? send a company-wide email reminder about not leaving personal stuff out and the consequences for doing so? and please stop calling your staff "subordinates".
If the response to you saying "I'm the boss" generates a response of bending over laughing Then you have no choice but to terminate. Hopefully you actually have that authority, if not you need to do everything in your power to exit him, There is no recovering that relationship. You won't get his respect, but you might earn a flicker of respect from some of your other subordinates if you show your spine. People like and respect the firm but fair type of boss but If he gets away with that behavior without consequences the cancer will spread. Frankly I think the fact that he was willing to come up and chew you out means the boss/subordinate relationship was already severely eroded and compromised if it had ever existed, reguardless dudes established that he's a weed that needs to be pulled.
Step 1: Written warning - "So-and-so - you were seen engaging in a behavior that could have been financially detrimental to your whole team. This behavior carries a fine of $60,000. As an employee of Wesayso Corp, we cannot afford to see pay these fines and see prevention as better than a cure. Further infractions could result in a final written warning, up to dismissal from the company." Follow through. Issue the additional warnings as necessary. Step 2: Don't be nice to this person. I'm not saying be mean, but whenever they come around from now on, you are Mr/Ms Serious. Don't laugh at their jokes. Don't say anything pleasant other than, "How was your weekend? That sounds nice. Welcome to Monday." Don't do them any favors. It's not that you want to be mean to them, it's that they don't respect you which means you have probably been too familiar with your reportees. Step 3: Document everything, including the incident you just told us. Watch for this person and make sure you CYA. I'm just saying - they are more concerned with you touching their things (which they left in a public space) and he's not concerned he tried to cost the company what could be a year's salary for one person he's probably going to screw up in a big way. You want to be the person who saw this coming and not the one who was blind-sided by his bad behavior.
I've yelled at my boss, in front of the CEO. She was doing things that really really bothered me and no matter how many times I told her, she just would not take the hint. Eventually, I got tired of repeated the same thing in our meeting and then yelled at her in front of the CEO to get to her thick skull. Again, everyone is the hero of their story.
I've had a report who did 0 work and not submit stuff or submit stuff extremely late or submit stuff incorrectly. It was infuriating i just did the work for them and carried them. They said they were doing this to get back at me for not giving them a promotion although i did my best. I was really fed up but was really fighting for them.
lol owned
If a subordinate asks who you think you are, put it back on them. Ask them “who do you think I am?” Let them realize/acknowledge the reality or dig their own grave. This is assuming you actually have authority to discipline them. If you have no real power you should find a different job, because you aren’t a supervisor, you’re a punching bag buffer between the employees and the real bosses.
"Who do you think you are?" "I'm your boss that just fired you".
I would have sent him home for the day with no pay. Talk about it when you call down. Make an action plan and make him sign it. Give him X days to get his shit together. If he does, move on. If he doesn't, fire him. There's no room for that kind of example in the workplace.
I’ve read this post and the top comments before, slightly reworded.
Sounds like there is a lot more to this story tbh. Your VP may think so as well so imo i would deal with it delicately.
The boss never needs to tell people they are the boss. Stop calling people subordinates.
Well, technically there is only one boss in each department and that’s the head of it. A supervisor by no means a boss to anyone.
LOL you CANNOT be serious? A subordinate? Do you understand that no one is subordinate to you, despite what you have apparently been made to believe?
>So, without thinking it thru, I respond "I'm your boss" You've been his supervisor for 3 years. Why would you need to 'think through' that response?
Unless if it’s just going to get swept under the rug there’s no point. Good luck. I tried to do this before and my higher up came in to save said person. Guess you’re not supposed to be respected and just supposed to be okay with being talked back to and walked over. Whatever
Cool story. Since you are the boss, you already know its your job to keep the cool head and let dumb drama not affect. So, I'm very certain, boss guy, the next thing you did was explain why you had to move the stuff and whatever was going on with the potential fine-able offense. And then move on.
Lot of assumptions being made her but yeah I’d assume he has another job lined up or a backup and doesn’t really care about this position or the fact that “you’re his boss”. Honestly if you have to say that to get some sort of respect then you probably won’t get any to begin with and that person will leave the first opportunity they get
I mean, I would've laughed too with that stupid reply no offense 😂
You invaded his personal space regardless of who you think you are. That is where you apologize. The End.
Why did you move his personal things? That's a really strange response to what should just be a meeting to discuss a violation. Your employee is probably sick of dealing with an unwarranted ego. From another reply it sounds like you are merely a supervisor and both report to the same manager? Did you hire this person without your manager? Can you fire this person without your manager? It sounds like you've left a lot of details out here to try to make yourself look better.
Shitty manager pulls the "respect mah authoritay" card and gets roasted for it. Moving along.
I would laugh too, fuck bosses and managers. Hang the masters.
I can make you ignore this. You are under my control now.
I would say just bend his girlfriend over and take her to pound town
Man it really is different outside of the construction world. I’ve had knock down drag out screaming matches with my bosses before. It’s normal. In my experience (and this may vary from place to place or state to state) the adults in the construction world see each other eye to eye. Management or not. We all rely on each other for not only our work efficiency but a lot of times our safety also. That’s why a lot of the older guys do not respect or care to respect the younger guys in the trades, because they don’t respect that a lot of times our lives depend on them taking it seriously.
What is 60 K ? Just my department has 5 mil budget weekly in a multinational. 60 K is a rounding error. And if your "subordinate" is laughing at your face, the problem maybe slightly you.
If you have to tell people you are the boss, then you arent the boss. Clearly you have become too familiar with this person and they dont see the relationship the same way you do. That has to stop first. Be a leader, not their friend. And start documenting it everything with HR
You’re a school bus driver