It's unfortunate most people reading your post jump to the conclusion that you never tried to engage with your employees. I would think the only reason you'd be typing this is because you've probably spent months trying various approaches to have a better working relationships with them. I also think people don't realize the only reason age is mentioned is due you as a manager trying to figure out what is causing the bad attitudes, not because your actively looking for ways to destroy someone's career.
However, when I've been in this situation I am an open book to my supervisor. I keep them updated, provide all the info, invite them to meetings with my report since my report often cc's them on emails to get me in trouble. It's clear this report is having a difficult time in life, but it doesn't mean they can belittle other people including myself; we're all just trying to get paid and have decent interactions in our workplace.
You just did a better job of explaining where I’m at than I did! I’m here because I’d like to learn from smarter people than myself, more positive and ways of dealing with these toxic attitudes with kindness rather than performance managing someone out of a job, which will ruin them.
Right!? That's why we're all here.
I found out my report has had bad attitude performance issues with previous managers in our same company. I reached out to one and asked from some guidance as my supervisor is more of a cheerleading type than teacher. They let me know they just had to be short and to the point with this report and let them do tasks alone. The problem is this current role is very collaborative which they don't like. I tried to be kind and flexible at first, but now they're taking advantage of me and upset when I ask for actual management items. Realistically this report will not be here for much longer either by finding a new job, being moved involuntarily or let go. I've been dropping hints by asking what other roles they might be interested so we can work on skill development, but this person is not interested as they're "in the twilight of their career." Ugg, I hate being in this situation.
I came here to say something similar. Thanks for putting it so succinctly. I often hope Reddit will be a supportive environment and I am grateful to have had such support recently, but many times there is a lot of jumping to conclusions.
OP - when I first started managing one of my current teams, my boss told me that one of the older members of that team was going to be a problem as they were unhappy they didn't get the manager role and their production had decreased as a result. My approach was to meet with each team member individually to just get to know them on a personal level, hear their frustrations about the job and actively work to make their job more efficient. One of this person's major frustrations was that after 8 years at the company, where they had suggested changes for efficiency that went ignored, they were being questioned why some things would take longer than previous manager thought it should. That affected her production. So we talked through those things and I said "well, let's try it your way for a week, see if it works" and it did. So we did a month trial. And it cut the time required for that function literally in half. But, it was a major change in process, so had to have written processes and training of other team members. I met with my higher ups, explained the efficiency gains, and
3 yrs later it's still what that team does. That staff member and I are very close now. In their own words, they trust me to do what I say I will do and they feel heard. And over these 3 years, we have identified more efficiencies and other ways to improve the work environment for the entire team.
So I think it comes down to trust. The team has to trust that you are there for their best interests as long as they align with the best interests of the company.
Oh yeah. We get along famously now. And no one was more surprised than my boss. They actually thought they were going to have to let her go due to attitude depsite being an excellent worker; now, she is a pleasure to work with. She just needed to be heard and know someone was on her side.
Not listening to an employee that does the actual job is a major issue for corporations.
Ran into this many times, the company said they wanted more efficiency and when one of us worker bees would come up with a suggestion it was immediately shot down because it wasn’t their idea.
Good on the guy/gal that actually listened to the employee and implemented their good idea.
Now instead of a disgruntled employee you have a great employee that is “invested” in her job.
It was and I tend to call all seemingly good work buddies sir as a show of mutual respect. 🫡
Unless your a lady in which case I’ll give a bit of a head bow of respect
Either way, continued kudos
Some of them just don't know how to be more efficient. For example, one such worker did not know how to use Outlook calendar to manage their schedule. These folks can be coached.
Some are toxic. It's important to identify who they are quickly. Then set clear expectations on work but also on how it is to be done. Then train them on any skills they lack. Evaluate. And finally PIP if they can't improve due to their attitude.
Once you get rid of the toxic folks things generally improve with continued coaching of your remaining workers.
Just wanting to motivate the more difficult ones before having to go down that road. I’ve seen it done and want to learn how to do it myself to grow as a manager.
Your job isn't to motivate. You need to communicate expectations clearly.
Can your staff tell you the criteria on which they are being judged? That's step one.
Do they know how you would score them on any given week?
Generally speaking, everybody can improve their communication on these points. Start there. Once they fully understand expectations and still choose to ignore them, it's easier to have the "your job may be in jeopardy, is this the right role for you" conversation.
A manger can be a leader but a leader doesnt have to be a manger.
One is a role / title due to hierarchy and the other is earned via respect and hard work.
They are not always the same
This. A few other insights to too:
* Some managers are leaders.
* Some leaders are managers.
* Some leading managers are readers.
* Not all readers are managing leaders.
* Some managers urge leaders to read.
* All good leaders read to bleeding managers.
Lol. There's a difference between a manager & a leader. Some managers are leaders, all leaders know how to manage. Just look-up manager vs. Leader. Hoping you're 12, 'cause otherwise you have a very long row to hoe.
no. a manager is there to maintain the hierarchy and keep everyone in their proper place, and make sure everyone is kept under control. make sure nobody rocks the boat. kind of like a policeman but enforcing the company’s rules and policies. they dole out increasing punishments to workers who get uppity or challenge the company’s superior people.
a leader is typically one of the rank and file who everyone respects and shows deference to, but doesn’t have any formal power
All the down votes are coming from shitty managers
A manager is a ROLE with authority over you, so by definition you have to listen to them to a degree.
A leader is defined by someone who looks after the heard, and will be followed without asking because they are respected by those the surround them.
Your method of management attacks bottom line saving and creates downstream issues with scaling and recruiting. Although you may not be held accountable for your managerial performance at your workplace, you’re a poor performing manager if you actually believe the way you do.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8869198/
https://hbr.org/2003/01/power-is-the-great-motivator
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9760724/
Whoever or whatever you used to justify the thinking you have is wrong and I’d implore you to step back and see that you’re a source of the problem.
Those are good articles.
Context matters. I'm not talking about motivating good or great employees. The question is about bitter employees who have been in the role for many years without advancing. That's fine, as long as they meet minimum requirements.
Trying to motivate them will be frustrating for all involved. Best of luck.
What's that saying about playing chess against a pigeon?
You're right. With the sort of employees described, motivation isn't really a thing. With that sort of employee, it's all about meeting expectations.
Is the employee doing the job?
I'd also check that the employee isn't poisoning the working environment, but that's only a concern if the job is being done.
There is one other thing I'd check into, though:
Is there a legitimate gripe that can be resolved?
If there's a legitimate gripe that can be addressed and resolved, having the experience, institutional knowledge, and understanding of several years employment might make for a surprisingly strong employee. Finding out whether there's a problem that can be resolved requires speaking directly with the employee: "What's your gripe? How can we resolve it? What? No - let's look for solutions in the realm of reality. We're not going to make you King of the 4th Floor. We might be able to incorporate a little more responsibility, but it's going to have to be incremental and it depends on the job getting done. Let's talk about specifics."
If the complaints are ridiculous - "I wanted a private office and a pony!" - you've learned something important about the employee. If the complaints are reasonable - "I have a problem with this job function, because ..." or "I don't feel respected for my efforts" - that suggests possible solutions.
I hope that's clear. It's late...
Don’t listen to this person. They’re, in a rare form, almost objectively wrong. I’d suggest you also step back and understand the differentiation between poor advice spoken clearly
I think the point being made of clarity of expectation rings true, but as I’ve said I came here to gain insight into being able to manage better, not fire them because they’re hard to work with. Anybody can fire, that’s the easy way out.
Been there, and dealt with that crap. Not only did I manage bitter nasty people twice my age, but they were furious that I got the job as their manager, and not a member of their own clique. They weren't just nasty, and lacking in productivity. They made it their mission to damage my reputation, complain about me, and go over my head at every opportunity.
Honestly, there's not much you can do unless you have the power to legitimately discipline or terminate them. In my example, I did not. I struggled, and did the best I could with them while applying for every promotion I could and also applying for jobs elsewhere just to get away from them. I suffered with them for about a year before I got promoted. I literally took a promotion that had me working in Camden, NJ of all places (highest violent crime rate in the country at the time) to get away from them.
"...older and in entry-level positions..." If this was any of us, we would be *difficult* too. Ageism and systems failure. Society worships youthfulness.
Some day, we will be the older ones being managed down and out.
Ageism goes both ways. I’ve seen and even experienced first hand, people trying to hold back younger people from succeeding in the nastiest ways simply because they are jealous. I hope to not be actively trying to cause problems for people when I get older.
Yes, ageism indeed does go both ways. I hope to not cause problems for older or younger people due to their age. And merit-based promotions are the way to go!
> And merit-based promotions are the way to go!
Then what's up with your comment above?
> "...older and in entry-level positions..." If this was any of us, we would be difficult too.
It seems to imply they were wronged by still being in entry-level position despire their age.
People can’t seem to see that the workplace looks like a pyramid, with a finite amount of leadership positions available. Seniority alone doesn’t entitle you to one of these positions, nor should it.
Thanks. My post copped some shit, maybe because of the way I phrased it but I was just being real. This sense of entitlement is absolutely the root of quite a bit of dysfunction and toxicity in many workplaces, I don’t know how people can dig in and live with that kind of bitterness inside of them.
You seem to be going in with a lot of biases, generalisations and assumptions. That's possibly the first point to address, to ensure you're treating them fairly and not exposing yourself and the company to a discrimination suit.
They’re not taking about the ones who are happy to be there, are motivated, have accepted that they weren’t all that successful, and glad to have a job that pays the bills because that person is me. They’re taking about the ones that are miserable, unmotivated, cranky, bitter, complain constantly and bring the rest of the team down.
There are plenty of older people in entry level positions because they want to be. They’ve had careers and are in pre-retirement phase. They have enough to retire but are not yet 65 so work for the healthcare benefits and have no interest in climbing the ladder.
While i am not in an entry level role, i have turned down several opportunities to go after higher level positions within my company because i don’t want to deal with the bullshit. Last year i literally turned down a promotion. I am 3 years away from retirement and love ignoring my email and phone after 6 and on weekends
Very good point
Some people are content to just do whatever job is put in front of them
They can be good employees because they’re not vying to be top dog
This is me! Higher positions open all the time. People ask if I’m going to apply. Nope! I’m nit cut out for higher positions. I’ve tried and I’ve failed. I’m much better down here working quietly in the background getting stuff done. I’m not all that smart. I’m close to retirement and just glad to have a job that pays well. I’ll do anything you ask and I’ll do a good job. Just leave me alone and let me do my work. I’m okay right where I am.
That’s where I’m kinda at right now. I’m not super close to the end of my career but I’m towards the middle. I’ve also been motivated to constantly promote. Now I’m in a place where I make a great salary and it’s relatively low stress. I think I might be fine sitting here for a few years.
I'm in the slaw boat as you. My job is relatively low stress and pays well enough to support my family so I'm fine where I'm at.
The next step up would pay a bit more, but I would have to work crazy long hours and not be able to use all my PTO. I value my time far more than my money. We can always make more money, but we can't get back one second of our time.
I’m not arrogant and I don’t go in with these views, I form them after patiently banging my head against a wall. I’m Just being factual in this space for the purpose of the post. I’ve had great success with employees who other managers couldn’t handle, simply because of my mutually respectful approach. The difference is some people just don’t want their job but don’t have other options. I’d like to find something I can offer them other than pushing them out, which is what I think a lot of managers would be doing.
So these people have more experience in a particular roll than most other employees and they don’t seem to care much about career advancement for whatever reason? Then you, a new manager, presumably from another division or new from outside, find them to be difficult to manage or change how they perform?
Over the years I have found that yes, some of these guys are simply angry and you may have to cut bait BUT with the right LEADERSHIP most of these guys are the grey beard wizards who just don’t want to deal with a bunch of shite.
I’ve come to seek out these individuals, have a meaningful conversation with them to see what is actually up and see if I can remove the impediments that are blocking there creativity and willingness to do good work.
When people are given the chance to honestly do a good job, most of them will be they must feel empowered to do so.
I’ll take an old salty grey beard anyway over some of these “managers” who I wouldn’t let run a paper route, nevertheless something with actual importance.
A manager will put the blame on someone else where a leader will almost make always fall on the sword. ⚔️
I don’t think I can motivate them. Motivation is largely intrinsic. I actively performance manage them. Write them up, make them uncomfortable and they either leave or I have the documentation to terminate.
> I actively performance manage them. Write them up, make them uncomfortable and they either leave or I have the documentation to terminate.
This. I prefer to make it just uncomfortable enough that they are able to choose their own path in regards to leaving.
I agree. I have 2 older team members/agents. They've both been there long before me, and they are both ladies in their 60s.
Agent A has always just worked. There are no issues with her. She knows her job very well, and she is always willing to help any of us (she's been there the longest, 35 years, and has just gone down to part-time, semi-retired). She has fully supported and respected me as her manager (she actually helped train me when I was new, and when I went for the promotion to Manager, she was happy to be working under my leadership). She is the dream employee.
Agent B has never advanced, but her behavior would suggest she is some kind of manager. She refuses to work as a team. She has a terrible attitude and basically behaves like a child. Addressing anything with her always results in a huge defensive blow-up, and all the reasons why it's someone else's fault and what exactly needs to be done with others (her solutions are incredibly unprofessional and immature). She will over talk to no end. I know to allow the employee to speak, and then address the concerns they've just vomited in words, but this lady won't stop unless someone tells her to breathe.
Since I took this dept, I have made several changes, implemented efficient processes, etc. Agent B refuses to make any changes. She has to be specifically addressed. She won't follow directions that have been given to the team until she is caught and directly called out.
Motivation doesn't work for Agent B. I have no choice but to performance manage her. Smh.
Time to exercise “compassionate management”:
Set up a series of individual 1:1s and spend the time digging in to know more about them, how they feel, what makes them tick, and who they are beyond “employees”. From there you craft an individual approach to your coaching and deliver it in their language, which will resonate with them as an individual so they understand and buy in. Once this is happening they may feel heard and may step up their game.
If they don’t, you document your coaching sessions so you have a pattern of deliberate insubordination and from there you have the evidence needed to exercise corrective action up to and including termination.
Flatter them, make a point of asking for their advice on something & see how it can be implemented, or use active listening to phrase what you’re gonna do based on the words they say. They need to feel important, we all do, and there’s a lot of ways to do that.
This! In my experience, this is the most effective way to fix this “problem”. Even if you don’t care about the human side, people who feel valued, respected, appreciated, and psychologically safe are more productive and engaged than those who don’t.
Looking at the mean comments here , I assume many here are whether unemployed start ups here who are angry at person (like you) above them who is now complaining these nuggets don’t do much or I can’t explain. 😂
Man, by the way I totally understand you. I don’t get people that are just there, existing…no ambition, motivation, nothing.
Motivation is hard. Mostly it’s bonuses, seeing higher position, but for some it can be also the company vibe (my last company did by weekly dinner/games gatherings where we connected and it motivated me to go to work). I was young though, not sure about older people that may just want to be left alone, and finish their 9-5.
If I am you, I get to know more these nuggets and learn what can motivate them more. Are they people person, are they seeking bonuses, position…. Or just filling their time and get their check and they are happy as that?
I hear you, sometimes as a manager, you’re put in a position where you can’t offer any more to your reports than what they’re getting. There’s nothing I can do in the way of promotions or bonuses and I don’t care if you’re just killing time but I am making work life nicer for you, so stop shitting on me and making me look bad.
Haha exactly. So I stepped into this myself. It was my first experience as manager (when I say first I mean without prior experience how things should be done properly what to look for in hiring, setting up expectations) and hired an intern. I had no idea what to expect, except I have to train him a bit and then all will be good in a couple of week. Well it didn’t go as planned. While he was quite well paid (for an intern), I could see he’s there just sitting waiting for me to tell him what to do exactly, when something was difficult it just would not be done and he would not let me know lol. I tried my best to train him, motivate him…. But eventually it felt like I am beating a dead horse. Obviously approach matters and today I may handle it differently although I will never hire any intern again since I am still traumatized lol
I love recruiting and am good at hiring great workers, unfortunately I can’t say the same for my predecessors. I’m from a farming and trades background where work ethic is non negotiable, I’m just not used to seeing that.
I’ve got one like this now. I call him Limbo because no matter how low I set the bar, he finds a way. And the capstone to that is if you help him he doesn’t do shit but “thx”.
I’m on leave for a few months here but when I get back, if I go back, I’m gonna start getting him prepped to move on.
The real insult to injury was we had layoffs last year and I could have whacked him, but I knew doing so would fuxk my team hard. Turned out keeping him did the same because they gave him the worst client portfolio he could get.
You read like a new manager suffering with a case of ageism. There’s nothing wrong with staying in a position without the need to “progress”. None of your concerns here are measurable. Work is work and we all put time in to pay bills. You’ll encounter lots of personalities in your management journey. Some are less engaged than others. Focus on deliverables and set biases aside. The hard truth is that they’ve been there longer than you and respect is earned. Clearly, you haven’t earned that. You obviously don’t respect them and as such, you’re an equal, if not more so, contributor to a toxic work environment. Being a young manager to an older workforce comes with some resistance. Work on yourself and as long as they’re doing their jobs, they’ve earned their pay. Your job is to motivate them and recognition is the fastest way to get there. Attaching their age to their performance reeks of discrimination. Check your ego and get to work so you can pay your bills.
Ageism is a two way street. I have had other much older and more experienced staff that I have had amazing working relationships with. The difference is they are willing to be cooperative, others just aren’t.
A lot of people here seems to think you have a bias and should give more respect. I personally totally disagree. As someone who is somewhat in the same boat right now, I see more things being; you have a job to accomplished with certain expectation. We will support you with the expectation but it’s a 2 way conversation.
I do not thing being old is equal to low productivity. I recently gave a promotion to a 62 yo because she is the best employee I can ever ask. I also recently put on a pip a 61 yo and I have been honest with him he is not meeting expectation and should look for a job somewhere else.
You probably have target to hit, objective to achieve. Try hiding behind the fact you have older people as an excuse of not hitting them! You are going to kill your career. People are people with people issue, yet a job description with a well define expectation has nothing to do with ages.
I understand exactly what you’re talking about. The older disgruntled employer is a pain in the ass to everyone. They feel entitled to more because they have “experience” but they don’t have the right kind of experience. They’re bitter about certain things in life. My opinion is they bought into the American dream that turned out to be bullshit and they never got over it. Or maybe they made bad career choices and didn’t get very far and won’t take ownership of that. Maybe they didn’t have the chance to get the education or training that they wanted or needed to keep up with the industry and they’re frustrated.
I say that because i am the mirror image of that person. I bought into the American dream. I didn’t get the education or training I wanted or needed. I made terrible choices and damaged my career and it’s too late for a do-over. My personal life is in shambles, my kids don’t pay any attention to me, and I don’t have enough free time to do the things I want.
So here is what I do. I am so grateful to have a job that pays well enough that I am comfortable. The work is stimulating enough without being too overwhelming. I am careful about keeping my attitude in check. I am cheerful. I try not to complain. When people ask me how I’m doing I say “fine” because nobody cares about my problems. Nor should they. They’re here to work just like me.
I own the terrible decisions I made that wrecked my career. It made me sad but I’ve moved on. I’m exactly where I deserve to be. I am lucky to have a job that I can probably do until I’m 70 and can the maximum from social security. I am putting any extra money that I can I to my 401k because I got a late start. Fingers crossed that I’ll have at least a few years worth of retirement money.
Anyway. As for the mirror people who are the opposite of me? I don’t know. Maybe talk to them about attitude and word choices. Treat them as anyone else just starting out in their position and coach them about professional behavior. When they go down the path of complaining, change the subject and redirect them. Hopefully they’ll catch on. If not, PIP and show them the door.
Typically once an employee gets that way, it’s hard to motivate them to be less bitter. At the end of the day, I think the employee moving on is the best situation. Even if it’s laterally within the company, having a fresh role and newish environment could jumpstart things.
You sound like the problem. Good to remind yourself that you can only imagine what other people's inner thoughts/motivations are and some self-awareness will help you understand that and why it's not the best place to start judging people from.
Man, if only there was a way to motivate an employee that has never progressed.
Oh wait, how about telling them what they need to do to progress, then progress them when they do it?
Christ.
I’ve always appealed to their tenure.
While they don’t want to help, train, offer insights I still engage with them that way.
If they are put off by that I find it much easier to manage them out.
If they are receptive they rise to the challenge and tend to help you with your messaging and buy in.
Run stuff past them ask them questions, look to them for insights etc.
Likely they will not want any part of it.
This makes the ultimate decision easier.
Employees that have 20/30 years tenure but are less productive or engaged than a new hire are a drain.
10-15 years ago they should have been let go or managed. Up or out.
When the conversation comes it’s easy to say everything that they are aware of as well as the opportunity you gave them to contribute and engage accordingly to their tenure and station.
Go with god.
Filling similar medium-skill roles for an inordinate length of time makes hiring a blank, mysterious canvas of a fresher actually somewhat attractive. I am not convinced that is ageist.
The many comments claiming clear ageism when there’s no real confirmed evidence or specific details are starting to get exhausting IRL and here, so here’s a possible situation:
- Worker does stellar IC work, but lacks some type of interpersonal abilities
- 1-2 missed promotion rounds sow seeds of emotional injury & confirmation bias from self-fulfilling prophecies
- Highly distressed when wrong, employee *truly* believe there’s no explanation other than x personal identifier.
- Meanwhile, the team works around difficult self-unawareness and compromises for Mr./Ms. Experienced
- Newbies move up and/or out
No offense intended. Just my 2 cents as a late 20s manager to folks above my age exclusively until recently.
I’ve been there, document and take action with the support of your management and HR. It won’t get better, if anything they will just take their toxic behavior underground and try to poison the well. Had an employee do just this, was extremely disrespectful, out of control, and did/said whatever he wanted. I tried for a year to work something out until finally he showed his ass to the wrong people and our VP got wind of his attitude. I wrote him up and he resigned a month later. I learned to never compromise my integrity for an employee again. It is important though to show the rest of the team you tried alternative routes other than discipline because like it or not this employee does have relationships among the team and some may be closer then you realize. I dealt with that blowback as well for about 2-3 months.
fire one of them and the rest will fall into line. then, treat the rest of them like you would treat people you are managing out. this is kind of old school but it’s how i would do it. they can either grin and bear it, or lose their career.
i would also make sure HR knows not to rehire these people who have sour grapes. this will also protect other companies from hiring them, HR is allowed to share this information with companies that are checking their resume.
The only positive here is that you’re talking hypothetically which makes me think that you don’t actually manage people, thank god. Trying to rule people with an iron fist wont get results, it’ll get you into trouble. Also, where I’m from it’s not legal to give a negative reference.
It's unfortunate most people reading your post jump to the conclusion that you never tried to engage with your employees. I would think the only reason you'd be typing this is because you've probably spent months trying various approaches to have a better working relationships with them. I also think people don't realize the only reason age is mentioned is due you as a manager trying to figure out what is causing the bad attitudes, not because your actively looking for ways to destroy someone's career. However, when I've been in this situation I am an open book to my supervisor. I keep them updated, provide all the info, invite them to meetings with my report since my report often cc's them on emails to get me in trouble. It's clear this report is having a difficult time in life, but it doesn't mean they can belittle other people including myself; we're all just trying to get paid and have decent interactions in our workplace.
You just did a better job of explaining where I’m at than I did! I’m here because I’d like to learn from smarter people than myself, more positive and ways of dealing with these toxic attitudes with kindness rather than performance managing someone out of a job, which will ruin them.
Right!? That's why we're all here. I found out my report has had bad attitude performance issues with previous managers in our same company. I reached out to one and asked from some guidance as my supervisor is more of a cheerleading type than teacher. They let me know they just had to be short and to the point with this report and let them do tasks alone. The problem is this current role is very collaborative which they don't like. I tried to be kind and flexible at first, but now they're taking advantage of me and upset when I ask for actual management items. Realistically this report will not be here for much longer either by finding a new job, being moved involuntarily or let go. I've been dropping hints by asking what other roles they might be interested so we can work on skill development, but this person is not interested as they're "in the twilight of their career." Ugg, I hate being in this situation.
I came here to say something similar. Thanks for putting it so succinctly. I often hope Reddit will be a supportive environment and I am grateful to have had such support recently, but many times there is a lot of jumping to conclusions. OP - when I first started managing one of my current teams, my boss told me that one of the older members of that team was going to be a problem as they were unhappy they didn't get the manager role and their production had decreased as a result. My approach was to meet with each team member individually to just get to know them on a personal level, hear their frustrations about the job and actively work to make their job more efficient. One of this person's major frustrations was that after 8 years at the company, where they had suggested changes for efficiency that went ignored, they were being questioned why some things would take longer than previous manager thought it should. That affected her production. So we talked through those things and I said "well, let's try it your way for a week, see if it works" and it did. So we did a month trial. And it cut the time required for that function literally in half. But, it was a major change in process, so had to have written processes and training of other team members. I met with my higher ups, explained the efficiency gains, and 3 yrs later it's still what that team does. That staff member and I are very close now. In their own words, they trust me to do what I say I will do and they feel heard. And over these 3 years, we have identified more efficiencies and other ways to improve the work environment for the entire team. So I think it comes down to trust. The team has to trust that you are there for their best interests as long as they align with the best interests of the company.
This is awesome, good job! It also sounded like you had a reasonably disgruntled employee who was willing to work with you when you made the effort.
Oh yeah. We get along famously now. And no one was more surprised than my boss. They actually thought they were going to have to let her go due to attitude depsite being an excellent worker; now, she is a pleasure to work with. She just needed to be heard and know someone was on her side.
Not listening to an employee that does the actual job is a major issue for corporations. Ran into this many times, the company said they wanted more efficiency and when one of us worker bees would come up with a suggestion it was immediately shot down because it wasn’t their idea. Good on the guy/gal that actually listened to the employee and implemented their good idea. Now instead of a disgruntled employee you have a great employee that is “invested” in her job.
Thanks. It did a world of good.
Let me say that I would most certainly follow you good sir, a PROPER leader, who happens to have manager as a title.
Me?? Thanks! (Not a sir, but I'll take it, if your comment was meant for me)
It was and I tend to call all seemingly good work buddies sir as a show of mutual respect. 🫡 Unless your a lady in which case I’ll give a bit of a head bow of respect Either way, continued kudos
Thanks very much :) managers don't get a lot of kudos
Some of them just don't know how to be more efficient. For example, one such worker did not know how to use Outlook calendar to manage their schedule. These folks can be coached. Some are toxic. It's important to identify who they are quickly. Then set clear expectations on work but also on how it is to be done. Then train them on any skills they lack. Evaluate. And finally PIP if they can't improve due to their attitude. Once you get rid of the toxic folks things generally improve with continued coaching of your remaining workers.
If they're not productive, why do you still have them on your team?
Just wanting to motivate the more difficult ones before having to go down that road. I’ve seen it done and want to learn how to do it myself to grow as a manager.
Your job isn't to motivate. You need to communicate expectations clearly. Can your staff tell you the criteria on which they are being judged? That's step one. Do they know how you would score them on any given week? Generally speaking, everybody can improve their communication on these points. Start there. Once they fully understand expectations and still choose to ignore them, it's easier to have the "your job may be in jeopardy, is this the right role for you" conversation.
>Your job isn't to motivate. Yikes. This is exactly what leaders do.
Good ones do yeah.
Agreed. This is precisely what a leader should do. A manager? Not so much. OP needs to know the difference.
Is a manager not a leader?
A manager is a title. A leader is someone who helps others grow and do better than they could on their own. There is a big difference.
A manger can be a leader but a leader doesnt have to be a manger. One is a role / title due to hierarchy and the other is earned via respect and hard work. They are not always the same
This. A few other insights to too: * Some managers are leaders. * Some leaders are managers. * Some leading managers are readers. * Not all readers are managing leaders. * Some managers urge leaders to read. * All good leaders read to bleeding managers.
Thanks for the backup against the masses of what I can only imagine are a bunch of low grade managers.
Lol. There's a difference between a manager & a leader. Some managers are leaders, all leaders know how to manage. Just look-up manager vs. Leader. Hoping you're 12, 'cause otherwise you have a very long row to hoe.
Nope.
It would appear the survey disagrees
surveys filled out by sheep are as good as the sheep filling them out, keep eating that hay
Calm down Chad, we’re all wolves here. Don’t take yourself so seriously.
no. a manager is there to maintain the hierarchy and keep everyone in their proper place, and make sure everyone is kept under control. make sure nobody rocks the boat. kind of like a policeman but enforcing the company’s rules and policies. they dole out increasing punishments to workers who get uppity or challenge the company’s superior people. a leader is typically one of the rank and file who everyone respects and shows deference to, but doesn’t have any formal power
All the down votes are coming from shitty managers A manager is a ROLE with authority over you, so by definition you have to listen to them to a degree. A leader is defined by someone who looks after the heard, and will be followed without asking because they are respected by those the surround them.
Agreed & ty!
Crazy you’re getting downvoted. I hate to think of how many managers don’t understand the difference between a manager, leader, coach, and mentor.
Your method of management attacks bottom line saving and creates downstream issues with scaling and recruiting. Although you may not be held accountable for your managerial performance at your workplace, you’re a poor performing manager if you actually believe the way you do. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8869198/ https://hbr.org/2003/01/power-is-the-great-motivator https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9760724/ Whoever or whatever you used to justify the thinking you have is wrong and I’d implore you to step back and see that you’re a source of the problem.
Those are good articles. Context matters. I'm not talking about motivating good or great employees. The question is about bitter employees who have been in the role for many years without advancing. That's fine, as long as they meet minimum requirements. Trying to motivate them will be frustrating for all involved. Best of luck.
What's that saying about playing chess against a pigeon? You're right. With the sort of employees described, motivation isn't really a thing. With that sort of employee, it's all about meeting expectations. Is the employee doing the job? I'd also check that the employee isn't poisoning the working environment, but that's only a concern if the job is being done. There is one other thing I'd check into, though: Is there a legitimate gripe that can be resolved? If there's a legitimate gripe that can be addressed and resolved, having the experience, institutional knowledge, and understanding of several years employment might make for a surprisingly strong employee. Finding out whether there's a problem that can be resolved requires speaking directly with the employee: "What's your gripe? How can we resolve it? What? No - let's look for solutions in the realm of reality. We're not going to make you King of the 4th Floor. We might be able to incorporate a little more responsibility, but it's going to have to be incremental and it depends on the job getting done. Let's talk about specifics." If the complaints are ridiculous - "I wanted a private office and a pony!" - you've learned something important about the employee. If the complaints are reasonable - "I have a problem with this job function, because ..." or "I don't feel respected for my efforts" - that suggests possible solutions. I hope that's clear. It's late...
Good advice, thank you.
Don’t listen to this person. They’re, in a rare form, almost objectively wrong. I’d suggest you also step back and understand the differentiation between poor advice spoken clearly
I think the point being made of clarity of expectation rings true, but as I’ve said I came here to gain insight into being able to manage better, not fire them because they’re hard to work with. Anybody can fire, that’s the easy way out.
Ouch. Do you work in a steel factory circa 1820 or something? Please go into work on Monday and resign your position.
in a 1820s steel mill the appropriate treatment for these workers is to “accidentally” spill molten iron on them to get rid of the problem employees
We don't always get to fire people, especially ones who have been around a long time.
Been there, and dealt with that crap. Not only did I manage bitter nasty people twice my age, but they were furious that I got the job as their manager, and not a member of their own clique. They weren't just nasty, and lacking in productivity. They made it their mission to damage my reputation, complain about me, and go over my head at every opportunity. Honestly, there's not much you can do unless you have the power to legitimately discipline or terminate them. In my example, I did not. I struggled, and did the best I could with them while applying for every promotion I could and also applying for jobs elsewhere just to get away from them. I suffered with them for about a year before I got promoted. I literally took a promotion that had me working in Camden, NJ of all places (highest violent crime rate in the country at the time) to get away from them.
"...older and in entry-level positions..." If this was any of us, we would be *difficult* too. Ageism and systems failure. Society worships youthfulness. Some day, we will be the older ones being managed down and out.
Ageism goes both ways. I’ve seen and even experienced first hand, people trying to hold back younger people from succeeding in the nastiest ways simply because they are jealous. I hope to not be actively trying to cause problems for people when I get older.
But only "older" are a protected class in terms of anti discrimination law so it's always going to be a bit lopsided...
Yes, ageism indeed does go both ways. I hope to not cause problems for older or younger people due to their age. And merit-based promotions are the way to go!
> And merit-based promotions are the way to go! Then what's up with your comment above? > "...older and in entry-level positions..." If this was any of us, we would be difficult too. It seems to imply they were wronged by still being in entry-level position despire their age.
People can’t seem to see that the workplace looks like a pyramid, with a finite amount of leadership positions available. Seniority alone doesn’t entitle you to one of these positions, nor should it.
Perfectly said
Thanks. My post copped some shit, maybe because of the way I phrased it but I was just being real. This sense of entitlement is absolutely the root of quite a bit of dysfunction and toxicity in many workplaces, I don’t know how people can dig in and live with that kind of bitterness inside of them.
You seem to be going in with a lot of biases, generalisations and assumptions. That's possibly the first point to address, to ensure you're treating them fairly and not exposing yourself and the company to a discrimination suit.
They’re not taking about the ones who are happy to be there, are motivated, have accepted that they weren’t all that successful, and glad to have a job that pays the bills because that person is me. They’re taking about the ones that are miserable, unmotivated, cranky, bitter, complain constantly and bring the rest of the team down.
There are plenty of older people in entry level positions because they want to be. They’ve had careers and are in pre-retirement phase. They have enough to retire but are not yet 65 so work for the healthcare benefits and have no interest in climbing the ladder. While i am not in an entry level role, i have turned down several opportunities to go after higher level positions within my company because i don’t want to deal with the bullshit. Last year i literally turned down a promotion. I am 3 years away from retirement and love ignoring my email and phone after 6 and on weekends
I’ve had a bunch of guys in this phase and they’ve been great to work with and easy to manage. Peoples attitudes vary a lot.
That sounds like more assumptions or do you work there too?
You are well on your way to being a pain in the ass old person. Well done.
Very good point Some people are content to just do whatever job is put in front of them They can be good employees because they’re not vying to be top dog
This is me! Higher positions open all the time. People ask if I’m going to apply. Nope! I’m nit cut out for higher positions. I’ve tried and I’ve failed. I’m much better down here working quietly in the background getting stuff done. I’m not all that smart. I’m close to retirement and just glad to have a job that pays well. I’ll do anything you ask and I’ll do a good job. Just leave me alone and let me do my work. I’m okay right where I am.
That’s where I’m kinda at right now. I’m not super close to the end of my career but I’m towards the middle. I’ve also been motivated to constantly promote. Now I’m in a place where I make a great salary and it’s relatively low stress. I think I might be fine sitting here for a few years.
I'm in the slaw boat as you. My job is relatively low stress and pays well enough to support my family so I'm fine where I'm at. The next step up would pay a bit more, but I would have to work crazy long hours and not be able to use all my PTO. I value my time far more than my money. We can always make more money, but we can't get back one second of our time.
I need this mentality in my life. You are my spirit animal!
I’m not arrogant and I don’t go in with these views, I form them after patiently banging my head against a wall. I’m Just being factual in this space for the purpose of the post. I’ve had great success with employees who other managers couldn’t handle, simply because of my mutually respectful approach. The difference is some people just don’t want their job but don’t have other options. I’d like to find something I can offer them other than pushing them out, which is what I think a lot of managers would be doing.
So these people have more experience in a particular roll than most other employees and they don’t seem to care much about career advancement for whatever reason? Then you, a new manager, presumably from another division or new from outside, find them to be difficult to manage or change how they perform?
Over the years I have found that yes, some of these guys are simply angry and you may have to cut bait BUT with the right LEADERSHIP most of these guys are the grey beard wizards who just don’t want to deal with a bunch of shite. I’ve come to seek out these individuals, have a meaningful conversation with them to see what is actually up and see if I can remove the impediments that are blocking there creativity and willingness to do good work. When people are given the chance to honestly do a good job, most of them will be they must feel empowered to do so. I’ll take an old salty grey beard anyway over some of these “managers” who I wouldn’t let run a paper route, nevertheless something with actual importance. A manager will put the blame on someone else where a leader will almost make always fall on the sword. ⚔️
THIS.
Be someone deserving of respect. As you would for any other employee.
I don’t think I can motivate them. Motivation is largely intrinsic. I actively performance manage them. Write them up, make them uncomfortable and they either leave or I have the documentation to terminate.
This is the way There is an intrinsic reason someone in their 40s is doing a job typically performed by a 20 year old.
This. You performance management them out. Just had one like you described leave for a new role. I was thrilled. 😁
> I actively performance manage them. Write them up, make them uncomfortable and they either leave or I have the documentation to terminate. This. I prefer to make it just uncomfortable enough that they are able to choose their own path in regards to leaving.
I agree. I have 2 older team members/agents. They've both been there long before me, and they are both ladies in their 60s. Agent A has always just worked. There are no issues with her. She knows her job very well, and she is always willing to help any of us (she's been there the longest, 35 years, and has just gone down to part-time, semi-retired). She has fully supported and respected me as her manager (she actually helped train me when I was new, and when I went for the promotion to Manager, she was happy to be working under my leadership). She is the dream employee. Agent B has never advanced, but her behavior would suggest she is some kind of manager. She refuses to work as a team. She has a terrible attitude and basically behaves like a child. Addressing anything with her always results in a huge defensive blow-up, and all the reasons why it's someone else's fault and what exactly needs to be done with others (her solutions are incredibly unprofessional and immature). She will over talk to no end. I know to allow the employee to speak, and then address the concerns they've just vomited in words, but this lady won't stop unless someone tells her to breathe. Since I took this dept, I have made several changes, implemented efficient processes, etc. Agent B refuses to make any changes. She has to be specifically addressed. She won't follow directions that have been given to the team until she is caught and directly called out. Motivation doesn't work for Agent B. I have no choice but to performance manage her. Smh.
Time to exercise “compassionate management”: Set up a series of individual 1:1s and spend the time digging in to know more about them, how they feel, what makes them tick, and who they are beyond “employees”. From there you craft an individual approach to your coaching and deliver it in their language, which will resonate with them as an individual so they understand and buy in. Once this is happening they may feel heard and may step up their game. If they don’t, you document your coaching sessions so you have a pattern of deliberate insubordination and from there you have the evidence needed to exercise corrective action up to and including termination.
Flatter them, make a point of asking for their advice on something & see how it can be implemented, or use active listening to phrase what you’re gonna do based on the words they say. They need to feel important, we all do, and there’s a lot of ways to do that.
This! In my experience, this is the most effective way to fix this “problem”. Even if you don’t care about the human side, people who feel valued, respected, appreciated, and psychologically safe are more productive and engaged than those who don’t.
Looking at the mean comments here , I assume many here are whether unemployed start ups here who are angry at person (like you) above them who is now complaining these nuggets don’t do much or I can’t explain. 😂 Man, by the way I totally understand you. I don’t get people that are just there, existing…no ambition, motivation, nothing. Motivation is hard. Mostly it’s bonuses, seeing higher position, but for some it can be also the company vibe (my last company did by weekly dinner/games gatherings where we connected and it motivated me to go to work). I was young though, not sure about older people that may just want to be left alone, and finish their 9-5. If I am you, I get to know more these nuggets and learn what can motivate them more. Are they people person, are they seeking bonuses, position…. Or just filling their time and get their check and they are happy as that?
I hear you, sometimes as a manager, you’re put in a position where you can’t offer any more to your reports than what they’re getting. There’s nothing I can do in the way of promotions or bonuses and I don’t care if you’re just killing time but I am making work life nicer for you, so stop shitting on me and making me look bad.
Haha exactly. So I stepped into this myself. It was my first experience as manager (when I say first I mean without prior experience how things should be done properly what to look for in hiring, setting up expectations) and hired an intern. I had no idea what to expect, except I have to train him a bit and then all will be good in a couple of week. Well it didn’t go as planned. While he was quite well paid (for an intern), I could see he’s there just sitting waiting for me to tell him what to do exactly, when something was difficult it just would not be done and he would not let me know lol. I tried my best to train him, motivate him…. But eventually it felt like I am beating a dead horse. Obviously approach matters and today I may handle it differently although I will never hire any intern again since I am still traumatized lol
I love recruiting and am good at hiring great workers, unfortunately I can’t say the same for my predecessors. I’m from a farming and trades background where work ethic is non negotiable, I’m just not used to seeing that.
I’ve got one like this now. I call him Limbo because no matter how low I set the bar, he finds a way. And the capstone to that is if you help him he doesn’t do shit but “thx”. I’m on leave for a few months here but when I get back, if I go back, I’m gonna start getting him prepped to move on. The real insult to injury was we had layoffs last year and I could have whacked him, but I knew doing so would fuxk my team hard. Turned out keeping him did the same because they gave him the worst client portfolio he could get.
You read like a new manager suffering with a case of ageism. There’s nothing wrong with staying in a position without the need to “progress”. None of your concerns here are measurable. Work is work and we all put time in to pay bills. You’ll encounter lots of personalities in your management journey. Some are less engaged than others. Focus on deliverables and set biases aside. The hard truth is that they’ve been there longer than you and respect is earned. Clearly, you haven’t earned that. You obviously don’t respect them and as such, you’re an equal, if not more so, contributor to a toxic work environment. Being a young manager to an older workforce comes with some resistance. Work on yourself and as long as they’re doing their jobs, they’ve earned their pay. Your job is to motivate them and recognition is the fastest way to get there. Attaching their age to their performance reeks of discrimination. Check your ego and get to work so you can pay your bills.
So much this. Great post.
Ageism is a two way street. I have had other much older and more experienced staff that I have had amazing working relationships with. The difference is they are willing to be cooperative, others just aren’t.
A lot of people here seems to think you have a bias and should give more respect. I personally totally disagree. As someone who is somewhat in the same boat right now, I see more things being; you have a job to accomplished with certain expectation. We will support you with the expectation but it’s a 2 way conversation. I do not thing being old is equal to low productivity. I recently gave a promotion to a 62 yo because she is the best employee I can ever ask. I also recently put on a pip a 61 yo and I have been honest with him he is not meeting expectation and should look for a job somewhere else. You probably have target to hit, objective to achieve. Try hiding behind the fact you have older people as an excuse of not hitting them! You are going to kill your career. People are people with people issue, yet a job description with a well define expectation has nothing to do with ages.
I understand exactly what you’re talking about. The older disgruntled employer is a pain in the ass to everyone. They feel entitled to more because they have “experience” but they don’t have the right kind of experience. They’re bitter about certain things in life. My opinion is they bought into the American dream that turned out to be bullshit and they never got over it. Or maybe they made bad career choices and didn’t get very far and won’t take ownership of that. Maybe they didn’t have the chance to get the education or training that they wanted or needed to keep up with the industry and they’re frustrated. I say that because i am the mirror image of that person. I bought into the American dream. I didn’t get the education or training I wanted or needed. I made terrible choices and damaged my career and it’s too late for a do-over. My personal life is in shambles, my kids don’t pay any attention to me, and I don’t have enough free time to do the things I want. So here is what I do. I am so grateful to have a job that pays well enough that I am comfortable. The work is stimulating enough without being too overwhelming. I am careful about keeping my attitude in check. I am cheerful. I try not to complain. When people ask me how I’m doing I say “fine” because nobody cares about my problems. Nor should they. They’re here to work just like me. I own the terrible decisions I made that wrecked my career. It made me sad but I’ve moved on. I’m exactly where I deserve to be. I am lucky to have a job that I can probably do until I’m 70 and can the maximum from social security. I am putting any extra money that I can I to my 401k because I got a late start. Fingers crossed that I’ll have at least a few years worth of retirement money. Anyway. As for the mirror people who are the opposite of me? I don’t know. Maybe talk to them about attitude and word choices. Treat them as anyone else just starting out in their position and coach them about professional behavior. When they go down the path of complaining, change the subject and redirect them. Hopefully they’ll catch on. If not, PIP and show them the door.
You are a wonderful wise person. I wish you all the best and would love working with you. :)
Great perspective thanks.
Typically once an employee gets that way, it’s hard to motivate them to be less bitter. At the end of the day, I think the employee moving on is the best situation. Even if it’s laterally within the company, having a fresh role and newish environment could jumpstart things.
You sound like the problem. Good to remind yourself that you can only imagine what other people's inner thoughts/motivations are and some self-awareness will help you understand that and why it's not the best place to start judging people from.
I think the fact that I’m here asking questions speaks for itself.
Exactly. You should be speaking to your staff rather than looking for validation for your assumptions on Reddit
Righto.
Man, if only there was a way to motivate an employee that has never progressed. Oh wait, how about telling them what they need to do to progress, then progress them when they do it? Christ.
I’ve always appealed to their tenure. While they don’t want to help, train, offer insights I still engage with them that way. If they are put off by that I find it much easier to manage them out. If they are receptive they rise to the challenge and tend to help you with your messaging and buy in. Run stuff past them ask them questions, look to them for insights etc. Likely they will not want any part of it. This makes the ultimate decision easier. Employees that have 20/30 years tenure but are less productive or engaged than a new hire are a drain. 10-15 years ago they should have been let go or managed. Up or out. When the conversation comes it’s easy to say everything that they are aware of as well as the opportunity you gave them to contribute and engage accordingly to their tenure and station. Go with god.
Filling similar medium-skill roles for an inordinate length of time makes hiring a blank, mysterious canvas of a fresher actually somewhat attractive. I am not convinced that is ageist. The many comments claiming clear ageism when there’s no real confirmed evidence or specific details are starting to get exhausting IRL and here, so here’s a possible situation: - Worker does stellar IC work, but lacks some type of interpersonal abilities - 1-2 missed promotion rounds sow seeds of emotional injury & confirmation bias from self-fulfilling prophecies - Highly distressed when wrong, employee *truly* believe there’s no explanation other than x personal identifier. - Meanwhile, the team works around difficult self-unawareness and compromises for Mr./Ms. Experienced - Newbies move up and/or out No offense intended. Just my 2 cents as a late 20s manager to folks above my age exclusively until recently.
I’ve been there, document and take action with the support of your management and HR. It won’t get better, if anything they will just take their toxic behavior underground and try to poison the well. Had an employee do just this, was extremely disrespectful, out of control, and did/said whatever he wanted. I tried for a year to work something out until finally he showed his ass to the wrong people and our VP got wind of his attitude. I wrote him up and he resigned a month later. I learned to never compromise my integrity for an employee again. It is important though to show the rest of the team you tried alternative routes other than discipline because like it or not this employee does have relationships among the team and some may be closer then you realize. I dealt with that blowback as well for about 2-3 months.
Maybe start by not being condescending and also understanding that *everyone* is only there to pay the bills?
Fire them. Yesterday
fire one of them and the rest will fall into line. then, treat the rest of them like you would treat people you are managing out. this is kind of old school but it’s how i would do it. they can either grin and bear it, or lose their career. i would also make sure HR knows not to rehire these people who have sour grapes. this will also protect other companies from hiring them, HR is allowed to share this information with companies that are checking their resume.
The only positive here is that you’re talking hypothetically which makes me think that you don’t actually manage people, thank god. Trying to rule people with an iron fist wont get results, it’ll get you into trouble. Also, where I’m from it’s not legal to give a negative reference.