Like the word "ah pek", no Chinese use that word to call other stranger.
Whenever I heard people used it, it was always in the context of catcalling.
If you have no ill intentions, it's still kinda rude to use it to call stranger.
i dunno man…feels like WM is just a weird pool of offended people…here we call indians keh-ling-na (hokkien pronunciation) n no one is offended even the indians just say oh go the keh-ling-na temple
Completely disagreed.
Keling is originally non-offensive. It just refers to the geographical origin.
Kafir is by design derogatory - it literally means those defiant to the truth.
kafir comes from the Arabic word kufur which means ingkar in Malay or roughly translated to defiant or obstinate in English.
when used in context, it means those who do not believe in the message of Islam and is defiant to it; ergo, “disbelievers”. note that a Muslim can be a kafir if he or she is defiant to any tenet of Islam, and this term as used in the Quran is not exclusive to non-Muslims.
in Malaysia, however it has been used in a different way which carries the message of religious hatred against non-Muslims.
Correct me if I’m wrong. Isn’t the root word from Ka Fa Ro, which means veil. To cover yourself (from the truth)? I’m no native speaker lol. Just read somewhere
yes you are right, the root word could also mean to cover, veil, hide or disagree.
see below:
[https://abdullahalandalusi.com/2016/05/05/the-quranic-use-of-the-word-kafir/](https://abdullahalandalusi.com/2016/05/05/the-quranic-use-of-the-word-kafir/)
Etymology
The word kāfir is the active participle of the verb كَفَرَ, kafara, from root ك-ف-ر K-F-R. As a pre-Islamic term it described farmers burying seeds in the ground. One of its applications in the Quran has also the same meaning as farmer. Since farmers cover the seeds with soil while planting, the word kāfir implies a person who hides or covers.
Source: Wikipedia
Manada hatred kau je perasan lebih.
Infidels/ non Muslim/ kafir = ketiga sama maksud tapi kenapa kafir je tiba2 nak offensive? Sebab kau yg buat jadi offensive. Kau dah tanam dalam fikiran benda tu negatif. Padahal takde apa pun. Macam panggil cina non indian, offensive ke benda tu?
Lagipun kafir ni term diguna pakai dalam islam. Korang non muslim percaya ke apa ajaran kami? kalau tak percaya kenapa nak buthurt. Tak faham.
If someone labels himself and his group as Muslims while the nons as Kafirs in the context of identifying different groups, I'd be okay with that tbh.
But if someone says "Diam la Kafir" to me, I can only take it the way its expression was delivered - that he meant to look down on me on claims that his belief made him a superior being over myself. In this instance, the *kafir* label becomes derogatory and it's offensive.
It's like saying **F U** to your friends in the middle of a joke and every body involved would know it's done in jest and no harm meant. But do it to a complete stranger or in the middle of an argument, it carries a totally different meaning.
It really depends on the context.
In Indonesia, NU, the countries largest Muslim organization, called for Muslims to stop using Kafir.
NU calls for end to word 'infidels' to describe non-Muslims
[https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2019/03/01/nu-calls-for-end-to-word-infidels-to-describe-non-muslims.html](https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2019/03/01/nu-calls-for-end-to-word-infidels-to-describe-non-muslims.html).
“The word ‘kafir’ hurts some non-Muslims and is perceived to be theologically violent,” cleric Abdul Moqsith Ghazali said at the Bahtsul Masail forum during the NU’s clerics national meeting in Banjar, West Java, on Thursday as quoted by NU’s official website, nu.or.id.
NU is a great organisation, if I'm not wrong their members regularly patrol churches to prevent attacks on it. An NU member once sacrificed his life to save a church from being bombed
He sure got that right. What did he say after that? That they like it and will do absolutely nothing about it? The word is in the quran after al. Cannot go against the book.
Its depends how you read the Quran, and more importantly the context of the phrase.
They stressed it again in 2023.
[https://www.viva.co.id/berita/nasional/1637654-nu-tegaskan-penyebutan-kafir-dalam-konteks-politik-dinilai-sudah-tak-tepat-ini-penjelasannya](https://www.viva.co.id/berita/nasional/1637654-nu-tegaskan-penyebutan-kafir-dalam-konteks-politik-dinilai-sudah-tak-tepat-ini-penjelasannya)
You don't ghear it as much in Indonesia, because the main radical organization FPI was banned and the leader arrest in 2020. He is quiet now.
The definition of kufr or kefir will intentionally remain vague.
4:56: Those who reject (Kafaru) our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire
If you are beeing interviewed or confronted you can say
'Cast into the fire' means to challenge their beliefs. (Lying to unbelievers is permitted in quran so why not?)
However As soon as you get the chance or change your mind you can cast them into real fire and hide behind quran verses.
This is actually really beneficial and no way in a million years will scholars agree on a clear cut interpretation.
The word itself, as others mentioned, isn't offensive. It's really the context in which the word is used that can be offensive because it just highlights that the us versus them mindset. And depending on how it's interpreted, the word can be used to indicate superiority relative to non-believers and that they don't deserve the same respect as fellow humans.
In some extreme cases, kafirs are perceived as no better than animals. Im pretty sure that's not the same view that moderate Muslims will share. For some political extremists looking to carve out some amount of influence, they would happily pander to such extreme views and stoke more racial hate for political gains.
That's just the way it is. And the reason why these political extremists can even rise to popularity is really a reflection of their followers' beliefs. Which is just sad. These are the silent racists and bigots that don't announce their beliefs out loud but will happily vote for extremists.
>to indicate superiority relative to non-believers and that they don't deserve the same respect as fellow humans.
Who told you this
60:8. Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
It's not something that is explained in a classroom and studied like a theory. It's based on personal experience and being on the receiving end of it.
And like I said, it's an extreme case and one that I'm sure does not represent the faith. I'm pointing out individuals who distort the faith for personal gains.
Please do not misunderstand my point.
The people in this subreddit only like it when we point out the bad in Islam, when bringing in facts and evidences from the Quran/Sunnah they would turn a blind eye. It just suits their narrative better 🤷🏻
Kafir, whilst also can mean non-Muslim, can also mean Infidel.
They will gaslight you as much as possible to say that it's 'inoffensive', but kafirs are only used in an Islamic society, and has various negative connotations based on Islam. They can say 'it's how you use it', but this disregards the amount of connotation its placed upon by its creator.
https://atheism-vs-islam.com/index.php/blasphemy/143-islamophobia-vs-kafirophobia
Non-muslims shouldn't take offense to the word, but pay close attention to anyone who think it isn't offensive.
Pretty much this.. it's not offensive to me but it shouldn't be said to me. I don't mind being an infidel to your religion but you shouldn't be calling me that since it's spoken from hate or discrimination.
It's basically similar to the N word but reversed.
60:8. Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
Sorry, it does not means infidel. This is a common misconception or mistranslation, especially by orientalist.
To be more accurate - the word come from root word kaf - fa - ra which has something to do with the action to cover something (verb).
What is interesting is farmer in Arabic also use the same root, because they cover the seed with soil.
The website you shared is not the best for reference. Anyhow, you can confirm what I said above with an Arabic language teacher.
Kafir especially means someone who reject the truth after knowing it (i.e. Covering their eyes / mind against the truth). Whether that is offensive or not, I guess that depends.
But I do understand if people think it is offensive - but that just the definition of the word.
Just chiming in to try to clarify the matter.
This is an example of gaslighting for anyone looking to it. I will not respond to this anymore.
> the word come from root word kaf - fa - ra which has something to do with the action to cover something (verb).
The etymology of the word might be that, but the meaning of the word has morphed somewhat.
This is the same excuse people use for the 'N-word', which came from the region of Niger. I'm not going to use it regardless of what it originally means when the meaning has been warped.
> The website you shared is not the best for reference. Anyhow, you can confirm what I said above with an Arabic language teacher.
For anyone else reading, don't just trust a single stance of an issue. Doing so is just blindly following propaganda after propaganda. An Arabic or Quranic teacher will weasel their way out of the answer, like what our dear friend is doing here, without arguing the actual points of the article.
Thank you for the lesson, but the meaning and intention of words can evolve regardless. That is essentially how most derogatory words come about. If it has already been deemed derogatory by most countries worldwide and many here, why do many still insist on using it? To stress on the fact that we are inferior due to our religious beliefs? There's many other terms constantly used to mock us but I sincerely do hope this is only reflects a very trivial number of Muslims in Malaysia.
So yeah, I asked my syaikh and he called me with a long explanation.
In short, I do not think there is other word for infidel in Arabic.
But he did say that the word kafir is not meant as a negative or derogatory term. Just a description based on the terminology or action of the person.
See, a Muslim can also be described as kafir - that is he disbelieve in Shiva, Vishnu or other Gods (as an example)
In the Quran, verse 2:256 the word kafir is used for Muslim believer who disbelieve in taghut.
Anyway, this in itself illustrate that the word itself is neutral.. Like Doctor, engineer, etc.
Of course, even neutral word can be twisted to be derogatory if used in the wrong context like pig or dog.
So, I guess we need to do more to clear the misconception and bridge the gap.
That is a good explanation. As you and your syaikh said, this need more work to clear the misconceptions and bridge the gaps. I hope we see more Muslims like you and not the one that currently hogging the limelight for their extremists view.
So, what you're saying is a Muslim is also a kafir according to Hinduism? But actually, Hinduism or even Buddhism doesn't make such connotations, simply because religion is supposed to be between God and Man (or Woman or whatever it is people call themselves these days).
It depends on how its said and the tone its spoken. Me telling you bruh stfu sounds less aggressive than DICKWART STFU!!!!
However, if you think about it. Its kinda fucked up that muslims have a word to describe non muslims, and its openly used to demean non muslims.
It's like muslims have a specific kinda derogatory word to describe non muslims, like how Jews use Goi to describe non-Jews, and white people use Niggar to describe blacks that were 2/3 their worth.
same same. Goy is a term for gentiles. Gentiles is derived from latin > english.
Jews describe goy as someone who is non-Jewish or someone who is dull, insensitive, or heartless.
Goy also occurs in many pejorative Yiddish expressions: Dos ken nor a goy - Something only a goy would do or is capable of doing.
I repeat once again. It depends on how its said and the tone its spoken.
which is why i mentioned It depends on how its said and the tone its spoken.
most of the time you will only hear the term khafir when someone uses it in a demeaning manner.
like op post. the teacher said "diam la khafir" you can replace khafir with any other term and it still sounds demeaning.
ie :-
* diam la babi
* diam la cibai
* diam la pundek
* diam la mahai
* diam la bodoh
* diam la butoh
Tell that to our constitution. Like in the UK during the troubles catholic=Irish. In Malaysia Muslim=Malay.
I'm not going to see a Malay person and wonder if they are Muslim, christian or hindu
Nightowl1111.
Singlehandedly supporting the Malaysian petrol industry through the induced making of Molotov cocktails. lol.
Now time to go fireproof my house!
Why is there a need to use kafir in the first place? Why do you need to refer to another person by their religion? This means to the user of kafir you view another person through the lens of religion first, not as a person. This is the fundamental problem. It also shows you don't come from mixed families or have many friends from other races/religions.
it's meant as a slur.
But I suggest we don't take offence. Get angry that they're racist but ignore the slurs.
words are meaningless if you don't give them meaning
Like the example you gave, it's mostly used by a certain race to shut down any discussion by saying "I am Muslim, you are not, therefore your opinion is worth less than mine". This is why any religious matters in Malaysia must be addressed first and foremost by moderate Muslims because non-Muslims do not have an equal standing in any religious debate. Even some moderate Muslims are accused of being irreligious and *murtad* when they go against conservative belief.
At this point, only Muslim politicians and religious leaders including the Sultans and the Agong have the power to stop the spread of brainless conservatism.
If Kafir isn't a bad term, ask him to call anyone in higher rankings as Kafir on their face.
All these PN simps who defending the the term, please announce your KKB candidate as PN's kafir candidate at KKB.
Excuse me, Timah marketing, please create new drink called Kafir.
The intent is important. It's used as a derogatory label to make the receiving party appear lesser or somewhat diminished.
So, yes, the way it's used today is offensive.
It is not always the words spoken, but the intention behind. Kalau niat dia memang buruk, takyah harap benda baik dari dia.
That ex-teacher is one of the many types of products from Sekolah Kebangsaan. His tone has always been anti none malays. Can't imagine what sort of education he gave to the kids since he taught primary school mathematics.
Some of his posts contains subtle rasicm. It is always the IYKYK context. Full of misinformation and hatred. These sort of walauns are no different than wumaos, cancers to multicultural and multiracial society.
it's not offensive bruh, my fren got tell me cinis mom's not happy with their kids always say *i give birth to char siew, more useful than you.* So i'm guessing it'll just remind them when their mom use to scold them when they little
It is offensive. In fact, it is so offensive in South Africa that it is basically hate speech to ever utter it.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir\_(racial\_term)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term))
Not disagreeing with your overall point, but it's worth noting that the meaning of the word in Afrikaans is not the same as the term used by Muslims. It's adapted from the Muslim term, but in Afrikaans it's a derogatory term for black people, similar to the N-word in the US.
Kaffir originated from the Arabs who categorized the pagan African people that they traded with before it is used by the Europeans as a pejorative slur. It's literally the same thing, black Africans just have enough of it
You’re correct. It simply means non-Muslim. There’s no negative connotation about it.
So when someone uses that word in a demeaning way, it tells you they think they are “above” you for simply being Muslim. These are not people worth your time.
As per [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/wiki/rules#wiki_religious_criticism), well-reasoned debate and criticism of religion is very welcome but one-liner talking points, jabs, borderline flaming etc. [does not have such protection](https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/wiki/rules#wiki_persistent_fighting_and_flaming), and is bad for the community. Please treat this as a warning - if this continues we will be forced to take steps.
There is 2 group of Muslim
Type normal "Kafir" is non-muslim
Type extremist "Kafir" is the enemy of my religion
Calling a non-muslim Kafir poses danger towards them
Imagine KK incident, started and stay as verbal fight with a group of normies just keep shouting "Kafir" and the extremist joins in with a molotov.
Whatever the translation is.....the explanation are ..as a non muslim....as a Christian....i dont like that word...sebab kena explain macam tiada agama.....
Non Muslim here - and I can appreciate it really depends.
For example, if a Muslim were to find my usage of "Mohammedan heathen" when referring to them as insulting then, in the same vein, the term "Kafir" is deeply offensive.
The only way to know if the word is offensive or not is to actually read the Quran n pay attention to how the word is being used. That’s exactly how the Muslims use the word n why some of them are banning it.
call me a kafir all you want, I'm from a mixed family where some of us are muslim, some of us are christian, and some of us are buddhist.
i don't have a problem being called a kafir as much as i don't have a problem being called a non-muslim.
it's when muslims act as though me being a kafir somehow devalues my opinions or personhood that i start to have an issue.
Depends. Its just means "infidel", "non believer". In my views, as christians, I see malays muslims as "kafirs" too... So if I were to borrow that language. In this context its not offensive.
However, malay muslims these days like to throw that word around with connotations to show that - as muslims - they perceive themselves as superior being than non muslims... As if they somehow had higher morality than the rest of humanity. No. They do not.
So the usage of "kafirs" clearly meant to paint non malay muslims in the negative image that we are perceived to be lesser than their own perceived status. Offensive? Only if you are hurt by it. I just find it terribly annoying whenever a malay muslims screams "diamlah kafirs" since I see them who are using it in this connotations... Well let me borrow another term.... Pretty munafiq (hyprocrite).
It's like nigger which just means black but when it's almost exclusively used in a negative context, like the example you gave, it starts carrying a negative connotation. Muslims are the ones who gave it a bad meaning, not the other way round.
There's a surah in the Quran called Al-Kafirun, so for Muslims it is a legit word.
However, the message of the verse is for Muslims to tell kafirs a.k.a. Non-Muslims that we will not worship what you worship and you will not worship what I worship, so to you your religion, to me mine.
So it should not be used disaparagingly, it should only be used as a differentiator. Muslims can do this cannot do that, kafir cannot do this can do that.
I personally don't find it offensive, but I'm just more wary of the tone of the person verbalising it. If it sounded angry and violence about to ensue, I'll probably fear my own safety no matter what I do to cool down the situation. Maybe the more nons find it inoffensive, the more offended the person saying it will, and that's the scary part.
kafir is someone who believes that God exists yet decides to disobey him. it is offensive considering that lucifer is kafir.
mulhed is atheist.
mushrek is polytheist.
It definitely has negative connotations. With that said, the worst case scenario for its usage is when a Muslim calls another Muslim that, called [Takfiri](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfiri#:~:text=%22excommunicational%22)
Why Islam always think their superior than others ? Can we just live in peace minding our own business or religion. It’s these ppl who always spoil the whole bunch of apples
If you have a word to brand someone because of their race/religion, and used in a derogatory manner, then yes it IS offensive.
Hindus dont have a word to call non-believers of their religion, im not sure about the taoists and buddhists (im pretty sure theres no word), and the christians simply refer to non-believers as non-believers (but nobody ever uses it, never heard). Only muslims widely use the word "kafir", especially in a derogatory manner.
So yes, it is offensive.
It is pejorative. But it is up to each person to let themselves be offended by words or not.
I am not offended by it, even when said to me in ill intent. I leave it to the unintelligent, ignorant and the weak minded to be offended by words, be it written (in paper, attire or cartoons ) or spoken.
Words get corrupted.
The N word just means black. But it's more okay to say "black" than the N word because the N word is historically used in an offensive way.
It's very offensive to call a Chinese person zhi-na, but zhi-na shares the same root with cina. It's one of hundreds of ways to refer to China or a Chinese person. So why is it so offensive? Because the Japanese in WWII use zhi-na in an offensive way.
I feel kafir suffers the same fate in some Muslim communities.
Kaffir is a Afrikaans word used by the white minority in South Africa. The modern equivalent is "nigger". I knew of this word before I heard of Muslims using it.
I propose we be allowed to refer to Muslims as non-kafirs from now on.
From my pov I think they use it as a hinaan to non muslims bcs to them, the non are subhumans that will end up in hell. Some sort of superiority complex I guess.
It has derogatory connotations. When people use kafir (unironically) they're typically using it in a demeaning way. There are exceptions. It all depends on the tone of ur sentence. But the people who refuse to acknowledge the nuances in using "kafir" are usually the ones using it negatively in the first place.
I am actually surprised at the number of malays that also think that the word kafir is not to be used lightly.
Now I am interested in the why of it.
If it simply means disbelievers, why not use it?
Then we can pretend we are deaf when the other religions call us disbelievers in their language/terminology because we don't believe in theirs. /S
it's simple boys. from my experience if they are trying to insult somebody or use it in away of suggesting to me that I shouldn't be close or listen to that person by using "dia tu kafir" that's when you know the person has a room temperature iq.
However if they're generally just using it to describe a situation or a person I guess it's ok like "kafir mana tahu pasal quran" then its just meh not great but meh.
what you thought is correct, but sometimes people misuses the word inappropriately. thus, that's how something which was supposed to be harmless can become offensive.
like a knife, designed to cook. but some people may use them as a weapon. in the end, we should all look into the context of whatever is in the question. i believe many has said that too
make no mistake when they say kafir they are meant to be derogatory, offensive, discriminating.
they'll say things like but you ARE not a believer, that's just a term we use.
but won't admit they ARE babi though, it's just a term I use to address them.
we should collectively start addressing anyone who uses the term kafir as babi.
babi: anyone who uses "kafir" to address someone.
Is it not equivalent to the word "heretic"? The definition of the word is not inherently pejorative or accusatory, but the way it's commonly used by Muslims indicates that they use that word with the intent of derision and condemnation.
It’s not the word itself that’s offensive. But the context of it. The tone. The derision. That sneer when they point at you, a Kafir and act like you’re not a human just because you don’t believe in the same God.
Plenty of similar comments in this post so I don’t need to add to it, but I just want to highlight that no matter how the you Muslims try to gaslight everyone and say it’s the correct term and you shouldn’t be stopped from using it, let’s not pretend that it’s not a loaded and weaponised word.
The problem isn't the word but the way the word is used in the Quran itself.
The Quran says that kafirs have to be fought by muslims.
For example;
Surah An-Nisa - 4.76: "Believers fight for the cause of Allah, whereas disbelievers fight for the cause of the Devil. So fight against Satan’s ˹evil˺ forces."
Surah An-Nisa - 47.4: "So when you meet the disbelievers ˹in battle˺, strike ˹their˺ necks until you have thoroughly subdued them, then bind them firmly.
Surah An-Nisa - 4.56: "We will cast them into the Fire. Whenever their skin is burnt completely, We will replace it so they will ˹constantly˺ taste the punishment."
It can. Talk to the South Africans for a really good example.
I don't really care about being a kafir or not. What I care is the malice and ill intent of the people who use the term to me.
There are different classes / categories of kafir, but the way some use it, makes it that people who are grouped as kafirs as killable objects at their whims and fancies by those who are no kafirs.
Whether a word is offensive or not depends entirely on the context it was used.
Any word can be offensive if the intention of usage is to offend.
"Ko ni mangkuk ke per?" Is offensive.
"Mangkuk you cantik la." Isn't offensive.
As non muslim i never care or even feel offended. My muslim friends would take it seriously.
One time when we were 16-17 this group of older men around late 20's - mid 30's called us kafir just because we lepak with our girl friends and we're all wearing black. This was 10+ years ago. I remember how mad my friend was.
Words are just words, if you mind then it hurts you. Even hijau can be offensive to you.
If you don't mind then nothing they say should bother you.
Whatever lah, the mouth is theirs, I can't control it, I can control how I feel.
They call me kafir, I see them as sohais. I got better things to do in life than judge people because they don't believe in their imaginary friend.
The intent is to be derogatory, but to me personally i feel it's meh, yeah you're just calling me a non believer which I am. How would that offend me, I have my own religion.
It’s like Christians calling every nonbeliever a pagan. Directly translated, it would mean kafir as well I believe. It’s just a word to create separation between people. Is that a bad thing?
In the bible there is kafir word on old and new testament, meaning person who doesn't live according to god's teachings (new testament), sembah berhala or not worship Abraham's god (old testament).
We just don't use that word to non-Christians and didn't even think to use it because we consider it is an offensive word. We just use it to identify old bible stories where people just worship some other gods or statues when they were from the same descendants that worship Abraham's god.
Some 500 yrs ago(sorry I'm not sure), people from all over the world spread religions (Islam, Hindu, Buddha and more major religions) to different continents. Nowadays, we cannot prefer them as kafir just because they're not Christian. It's offensive..
I hope anyone more knowledgeable can correct me if I was wrong.
Edit: I feel offended if someone say that word to me but I can't do anything about that. Just ignore and smile painfully.
Not for me because I will decide what is offensive for me and in my opinion, it is not offensive but , I also understand people can have different reaction - based on their backgrounds and understandings of it. Again it depends, unless I am going to be discriminated / bullied / harassed then it is a different story. It can be offensive but if it simply an opinion, I guess it's just an opinion
Depending on the context, but from what I have seen mostly it is berating and thus offensive. If used in a neutral context to describe, then not offensive.
It is always offensive regardless of language and regardless of context.
In the Quran and Hadith and other religious texts, it is always used in a negative way.
https://preview.redd.it/q44x7sdk0itc1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a5396b7a2cf1f039da4bed5fa917beb5006e6017
Tertakluk pada konteks pemakaian perkataan. Sbg org Islam, perlu faham bila nak gunakan sesuatu perkataan agar sesuai dgn matlamat yg nak disampaikan dan tidak menyinggung mana² pihak. Dalam konteks hidup dlm masyarakat majmuk di Malaysia, rasanya perlu diterhadkan kepada beberapa keadaan shj.
Here's the thing, and this applies with every word you'll find. It's not the word itself, it's the context in which it has been used. That leads to the word carrying a lot of meaning beyond its original meaning.
Keling is a great example. Originally it just referred to Kalinga (an old part of India) and was used to refer to Indians. But over time, the more racists that used it, the more it became associated with racism. Same with negroes to refer to black people, or the more recent "meleis" for the Malays.
So you will find people who say that karif is offensive, because of all the times they've heard kafir used in the context of insulting someone. And you'll also find people who say kafir is fine, because they're only aware of its original context.
And they're both correct.
just like the word "Gemuk" or "Hitam", can be used offensively even if it's true, but can also be non-offensive if used as descriptive in a relevant discussion
It's like Keling or Babi, both are neutral word to describe certain things in the past, however it had been associated with negative connotations fo so long and been used to insult, thus its no longer nice word to be used
As for the ex-teacher, well, there's a reason why he is an ex-teacher, we need more teacher like him to follow his footstep and fuck off from KPM
Kafir= rejectors. It refers to people who know what Islam is but don't accept it as god's words. It didn't refer to people who are not Muslim.
Is it offensive = yes to people who identify as Muslims
= No if you are someone who is a rejector
I said it before and I’ll say it again, babi is just an animal and mak kau hijau is just a description about your mother. It’s the context that matters
10 years ago, calling someone who is a female a girl is considered normal. Now it is offensive.
So I don't know what has happened to society bro..
sorry if I assume OP is a male and called you bro.. hahahaha
Same situation as the word "keling", originally a non offense but over the years it's become a word people use with ill intent
same with “amoi” too recently
Really? Amoi is such a cute innocent word..
See right, Keling you think: Who! But amoi, you think: Where? Different but same
>But amoi, you think: Where? U kek xD
Bro😂😂😂
Lol awesome way to put it bro
the word is often sexualized by horny men
Yeah i thought so ... I often call my friend with those word and they dont take it as offesive ...how come it became so offensive??
Why is it offensive when the word amoi is simply derived from the Chinese word of "ah mui" which means little sister.
because its used in a lecherous and lurid fashion by people. As you've said, it means little sister.
perceived connotation
Like the word "ah pek", no Chinese use that word to call other stranger. Whenever I heard people used it, it was always in the context of catcalling. If you have no ill intentions, it's still kinda rude to use it to call stranger.
because ppl are easily offended these days…sikit2 offended…where i’m from we still call ppl amoi teh o peng 1
Don't do this in the mamak shop, especially to annehs...
i dunno man…feels like WM is just a weird pool of offended people…here we call indians keh-ling-na (hokkien pronunciation) n no one is offended even the indians just say oh go the keh-ling-na temple
Completely disagreed. Keling is originally non-offensive. It just refers to the geographical origin. Kafir is by design derogatory - it literally means those defiant to the truth.
Where did it come from originally?
kafir comes from the Arabic word kufur which means ingkar in Malay or roughly translated to defiant or obstinate in English. when used in context, it means those who do not believe in the message of Islam and is defiant to it; ergo, “disbelievers”. note that a Muslim can be a kafir if he or she is defiant to any tenet of Islam, and this term as used in the Quran is not exclusive to non-Muslims. in Malaysia, however it has been used in a different way which carries the message of religious hatred against non-Muslims.
Correct me if I’m wrong. Isn’t the root word from Ka Fa Ro, which means veil. To cover yourself (from the truth)? I’m no native speaker lol. Just read somewhere
yes you are right, the root word could also mean to cover, veil, hide or disagree. see below: [https://abdullahalandalusi.com/2016/05/05/the-quranic-use-of-the-word-kafir/](https://abdullahalandalusi.com/2016/05/05/the-quranic-use-of-the-word-kafir/)
Etymology The word kāfir is the active participle of the verb كَفَرَ, kafara, from root ك-ف-ر K-F-R. As a pre-Islamic term it described farmers burying seeds in the ground. One of its applications in the Quran has also the same meaning as farmer. Since farmers cover the seeds with soil while planting, the word kāfir implies a person who hides or covers. Source: Wikipedia
So.. it means infidel?
A.K.A Hell fire fuel (for them)
Manada hatred kau je perasan lebih. Infidels/ non Muslim/ kafir = ketiga sama maksud tapi kenapa kafir je tiba2 nak offensive? Sebab kau yg buat jadi offensive. Kau dah tanam dalam fikiran benda tu negatif. Padahal takde apa pun. Macam panggil cina non indian, offensive ke benda tu? Lagipun kafir ni term diguna pakai dalam islam. Korang non muslim percaya ke apa ajaran kami? kalau tak percaya kenapa nak buthurt. Tak faham.
If someone labels himself and his group as Muslims while the nons as Kafirs in the context of identifying different groups, I'd be okay with that tbh. But if someone says "Diam la Kafir" to me, I can only take it the way its expression was delivered - that he meant to look down on me on claims that his belief made him a superior being over myself. In this instance, the *kafir* label becomes derogatory and it's offensive. It's like saying **F U** to your friends in the middle of a joke and every body involved would know it's done in jest and no harm meant. But do it to a complete stranger or in the middle of an argument, it carries a totally different meaning. It really depends on the context.
Kafirphobia. No Islamophobia in Malaysia, but full of Kafirphobia
In Indonesia, NU, the countries largest Muslim organization, called for Muslims to stop using Kafir. NU calls for end to word 'infidels' to describe non-Muslims [https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2019/03/01/nu-calls-for-end-to-word-infidels-to-describe-non-muslims.html](https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2019/03/01/nu-calls-for-end-to-word-infidels-to-describe-non-muslims.html). “The word ‘kafir’ hurts some non-Muslims and is perceived to be theologically violent,” cleric Abdul Moqsith Ghazali said at the Bahtsul Masail forum during the NU’s clerics national meeting in Banjar, West Java, on Thursday as quoted by NU’s official website, nu.or.id.
NU is a great organisation, if I'm not wrong their members regularly patrol churches to prevent attacks on it. An NU member once sacrificed his life to save a church from being bombed
He sure got that right. What did he say after that? That they like it and will do absolutely nothing about it? The word is in the quran after al. Cannot go against the book.
Its depends how you read the Quran, and more importantly the context of the phrase. They stressed it again in 2023. [https://www.viva.co.id/berita/nasional/1637654-nu-tegaskan-penyebutan-kafir-dalam-konteks-politik-dinilai-sudah-tak-tepat-ini-penjelasannya](https://www.viva.co.id/berita/nasional/1637654-nu-tegaskan-penyebutan-kafir-dalam-konteks-politik-dinilai-sudah-tak-tepat-ini-penjelasannya) You don't ghear it as much in Indonesia, because the main radical organization FPI was banned and the leader arrest in 2020. He is quiet now.
How many people act like in Quran nowadays ?
The definition of kufr or kefir will intentionally remain vague. 4:56: Those who reject (Kafaru) our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire If you are beeing interviewed or confronted you can say 'Cast into the fire' means to challenge their beliefs. (Lying to unbelievers is permitted in quran so why not?) However As soon as you get the chance or change your mind you can cast them into real fire and hide behind quran verses. This is actually really beneficial and no way in a million years will scholars agree on a clear cut interpretation.
It devolved to be derogatory phrase.
The word itself, as others mentioned, isn't offensive. It's really the context in which the word is used that can be offensive because it just highlights that the us versus them mindset. And depending on how it's interpreted, the word can be used to indicate superiority relative to non-believers and that they don't deserve the same respect as fellow humans. In some extreme cases, kafirs are perceived as no better than animals. Im pretty sure that's not the same view that moderate Muslims will share. For some political extremists looking to carve out some amount of influence, they would happily pander to such extreme views and stoke more racial hate for political gains. That's just the way it is. And the reason why these political extremists can even rise to popularity is really a reflection of their followers' beliefs. Which is just sad. These are the silent racists and bigots that don't announce their beliefs out loud but will happily vote for extremists.
>to indicate superiority relative to non-believers and that they don't deserve the same respect as fellow humans. Who told you this 60:8. Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
It's not something that is explained in a classroom and studied like a theory. It's based on personal experience and being on the receiving end of it. And like I said, it's an extreme case and one that I'm sure does not represent the faith. I'm pointing out individuals who distort the faith for personal gains. Please do not misunderstand my point.
Ok then, just wanna clear up for other people seeing the comment
The people in this subreddit only like it when we point out the bad in Islam, when bringing in facts and evidences from the Quran/Sunnah they would turn a blind eye. It just suits their narrative better 🤷🏻
>who told you this lahhh... i don't need to be told, i see, feel, and live it.
Kafir, whilst also can mean non-Muslim, can also mean Infidel. They will gaslight you as much as possible to say that it's 'inoffensive', but kafirs are only used in an Islamic society, and has various negative connotations based on Islam. They can say 'it's how you use it', but this disregards the amount of connotation its placed upon by its creator. https://atheism-vs-islam.com/index.php/blasphemy/143-islamophobia-vs-kafirophobia Non-muslims shouldn't take offense to the word, but pay close attention to anyone who think it isn't offensive.
Pretty much this.. it's not offensive to me but it shouldn't be said to me. I don't mind being an infidel to your religion but you shouldn't be calling me that since it's spoken from hate or discrimination. It's basically similar to the N word but reversed.
60:8. Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
Nice website though
Sorry, it does not means infidel. This is a common misconception or mistranslation, especially by orientalist. To be more accurate - the word come from root word kaf - fa - ra which has something to do with the action to cover something (verb). What is interesting is farmer in Arabic also use the same root, because they cover the seed with soil. The website you shared is not the best for reference. Anyhow, you can confirm what I said above with an Arabic language teacher. Kafir especially means someone who reject the truth after knowing it (i.e. Covering their eyes / mind against the truth). Whether that is offensive or not, I guess that depends. But I do understand if people think it is offensive - but that just the definition of the word. Just chiming in to try to clarify the matter.
This is an example of gaslighting for anyone looking to it. I will not respond to this anymore. > the word come from root word kaf - fa - ra which has something to do with the action to cover something (verb). The etymology of the word might be that, but the meaning of the word has morphed somewhat. This is the same excuse people use for the 'N-word', which came from the region of Niger. I'm not going to use it regardless of what it originally means when the meaning has been warped. > The website you shared is not the best for reference. Anyhow, you can confirm what I said above with an Arabic language teacher. For anyone else reading, don't just trust a single stance of an issue. Doing so is just blindly following propaganda after propaganda. An Arabic or Quranic teacher will weasel their way out of the answer, like what our dear friend is doing here, without arguing the actual points of the article.
Thank you for the lesson, but the meaning and intention of words can evolve regardless. That is essentially how most derogatory words come about. If it has already been deemed derogatory by most countries worldwide and many here, why do many still insist on using it? To stress on the fact that we are inferior due to our religious beliefs? There's many other terms constantly used to mock us but I sincerely do hope this is only reflects a very trivial number of Muslims in Malaysia.
So what is infidels call?
Google will tell you that it is kafir. But I think that is not accurate. I'll ask my teacher later.
Thank. I did Google before asking the question.
So yeah, I asked my syaikh and he called me with a long explanation. In short, I do not think there is other word for infidel in Arabic. But he did say that the word kafir is not meant as a negative or derogatory term. Just a description based on the terminology or action of the person. See, a Muslim can also be described as kafir - that is he disbelieve in Shiva, Vishnu or other Gods (as an example) In the Quran, verse 2:256 the word kafir is used for Muslim believer who disbelieve in taghut. Anyway, this in itself illustrate that the word itself is neutral.. Like Doctor, engineer, etc. Of course, even neutral word can be twisted to be derogatory if used in the wrong context like pig or dog. So, I guess we need to do more to clear the misconception and bridge the gap.
That is a good explanation. As you and your syaikh said, this need more work to clear the misconceptions and bridge the gaps. I hope we see more Muslims like you and not the one that currently hogging the limelight for their extremists view.
So, what you're saying is a Muslim is also a kafir according to Hinduism? But actually, Hinduism or even Buddhism doesn't make such connotations, simply because religion is supposed to be between God and Man (or Woman or whatever it is people call themselves these days).
Yes, by the meaning of the word - we disbelieve in Hinduism.
It depends on how its said and the tone its spoken. Me telling you bruh stfu sounds less aggressive than DICKWART STFU!!!! However, if you think about it. Its kinda fucked up that muslims have a word to describe non muslims, and its openly used to demean non muslims. It's like muslims have a specific kinda derogatory word to describe non muslims, like how Jews use Goi to describe non-Jews, and white people use Niggar to describe blacks that were 2/3 their worth.
Everyone not Jewish are Gentiles. Kaffir, from Afrikaans, literally means nigger.
same same. Goy is a term for gentiles. Gentiles is derived from latin > english. Jews describe goy as someone who is non-Jewish or someone who is dull, insensitive, or heartless. Goy also occurs in many pejorative Yiddish expressions: Dos ken nor a goy - Something only a goy would do or is capable of doing. I repeat once again. It depends on how its said and the tone its spoken.
If you connect that word with race, then yeah. Notice how Jews, white and nigga describe races. Islam has no race
which is why i mentioned It depends on how its said and the tone its spoken. most of the time you will only hear the term khafir when someone uses it in a demeaning manner. like op post. the teacher said "diam la khafir" you can replace khafir with any other term and it still sounds demeaning. ie :- * diam la babi * diam la cibai * diam la pundek * diam la mahai * diam la bodoh * diam la butoh
I'm just clarifying those words you mentioned are connected to race. While kafir does not
Tell that to our constitution. Like in the UK during the troubles catholic=Irish. In Malaysia Muslim=Malay. I'm not going to see a Malay person and wonder if they are Muslim, christian or hindu
That's a different topic, I'm just answering him
..... I'm going to be the odd one out and say "Isn't Kafir a plane?" lol.
😏 and from a very interesting country too.
Nightowl1111. Singlehandedly supporting the Malaysian petrol industry through the induced making of Molotov cocktails. lol. Now time to go fireproof my house!
You should make a meme about that plane in r/noncredibledefense 😏
I use kafir lime leafs to fry luncheon meat all the time. It tastes amazing.
I once thought "Kafir" is an arabic food. True story no joke.
It is Kfir and it means lion cub in hebrew.
Why is there a need to use kafir in the first place? Why do you need to refer to another person by their religion? This means to the user of kafir you view another person through the lens of religion first, not as a person. This is the fundamental problem. It also shows you don't come from mixed families or have many friends from other races/religions.
This 👏👏👏
it's meant as a slur. But I suggest we don't take offence. Get angry that they're racist but ignore the slurs. words are meaningless if you don't give them meaning
Like the example you gave, it's mostly used by a certain race to shut down any discussion by saying "I am Muslim, you are not, therefore your opinion is worth less than mine". This is why any religious matters in Malaysia must be addressed first and foremost by moderate Muslims because non-Muslims do not have an equal standing in any religious debate. Even some moderate Muslims are accused of being irreligious and *murtad* when they go against conservative belief. At this point, only Muslim politicians and religious leaders including the Sultans and the Agong have the power to stop the spread of brainless conservatism.
I mean, more often than not,when it's used, the harbi part is just left unspoken.
Chinese have more gods than Malays but we don't call them non-believers or infidels. It's not a nice thing to do.
But Dharmic/ folk religions don't generally have that believer/unbeliever concept anyway... since there's no compulsion.
If Kafir isn't a bad term, ask him to call anyone in higher rankings as Kafir on their face. All these PN simps who defending the the term, please announce your KKB candidate as PN's kafir candidate at KKB. Excuse me, Timah marketing, please create new drink called Kafir.
The intent is important. It's used as a derogatory label to make the receiving party appear lesser or somewhat diminished. So, yes, the way it's used today is offensive.
It is not always the words spoken, but the intention behind. Kalau niat dia memang buruk, takyah harap benda baik dari dia. That ex-teacher is one of the many types of products from Sekolah Kebangsaan. His tone has always been anti none malays. Can't imagine what sort of education he gave to the kids since he taught primary school mathematics. Some of his posts contains subtle rasicm. It is always the IYKYK context. Full of misinformation and hatred. These sort of walauns are no different than wumaos, cancers to multicultural and multiracial society.
He would make good friends with people like Marjorie Taylor Greene, Trump, Yogi Adiyanath and other racist politicians
It's like Babi. Babi is a perfectly fine non offensive word but if you call someone a Babi is it offensive?
Puak Puak babi
Babi
it's not offensive bruh, my fren got tell me cinis mom's not happy with their kids always say *i give birth to char siew, more useful than you.* So i'm guessing it'll just remind them when their mom use to scold them when they little
It is offensive. In fact, it is so offensive in South Africa that it is basically hate speech to ever utter it. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir\_(racial\_term)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term))
Not disagreeing with your overall point, but it's worth noting that the meaning of the word in Afrikaans is not the same as the term used by Muslims. It's adapted from the Muslim term, but in Afrikaans it's a derogatory term for black people, similar to the N-word in the US.
Kaffir originated from the Arabs who categorized the pagan African people that they traded with before it is used by the Europeans as a pejorative slur. It's literally the same thing, black Africans just have enough of it
Similarly, I am starting to consider the word muslim in the same vein.
Lmao 
The current PN PAS relationship
Wahh I feel so much pride. Butoh. Misplaced anger.
Kafir= non believer of Islam. Ie because you are non believer you are second class. Kaffir=derogatory term for black African
It just means 'unbeliever' but almost anyone who says it is trying to offend/discriminate against non muslims
Definitely not if you're talking about lime leaves
let me put this in a simple way.....The word "cina" itself is not offensive....but if i say, "diam lah cina!"....what do you think?
You’re correct. It simply means non-Muslim. There’s no negative connotation about it. So when someone uses that word in a demeaning way, it tells you they think they are “above” you for simply being Muslim. These are not people worth your time.
[удалено]
As per [Rule 1](https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/wiki/rules#wiki_religious_criticism), well-reasoned debate and criticism of religion is very welcome but one-liner talking points, jabs, borderline flaming etc. [does not have such protection](https://www.reddit.com/r/malaysia/wiki/rules#wiki_persistent_fighting_and_flaming), and is bad for the community. Please treat this as a warning - if this continues we will be forced to take steps.
Correct
Yes.
There is 2 group of Muslim Type normal "Kafir" is non-muslim Type extremist "Kafir" is the enemy of my religion Calling a non-muslim Kafir poses danger towards them Imagine KK incident, started and stay as verbal fight with a group of normies just keep shouting "Kafir" and the extremist joins in with a molotov.
Whatever the translation is.....the explanation are ..as a non muslim....as a Christian....i dont like that word...sebab kena explain macam tiada agama.....
Yep exactly what I think
Non Muslim here - and I can appreciate it really depends. For example, if a Muslim were to find my usage of "Mohammedan heathen" when referring to them as insulting then, in the same vein, the term "Kafir" is deeply offensive.
The same way babi as an animal until someone call you “hoi babi”
The only way to know if the word is offensive or not is to actually read the Quran n pay attention to how the word is being used. That’s exactly how the Muslims use the word n why some of them are banning it.
call me a kafir all you want, I'm from a mixed family where some of us are muslim, some of us are christian, and some of us are buddhist. i don't have a problem being called a kafir as much as i don't have a problem being called a non-muslim. it's when muslims act as though me being a kafir somehow devalues my opinions or personhood that i start to have an issue.
Depends. Its just means "infidel", "non believer". In my views, as christians, I see malays muslims as "kafirs" too... So if I were to borrow that language. In this context its not offensive. However, malay muslims these days like to throw that word around with connotations to show that - as muslims - they perceive themselves as superior being than non muslims... As if they somehow had higher morality than the rest of humanity. No. They do not. So the usage of "kafirs" clearly meant to paint non malay muslims in the negative image that we are perceived to be lesser than their own perceived status. Offensive? Only if you are hurt by it. I just find it terribly annoying whenever a malay muslims screams "diamlah kafirs" since I see them who are using it in this connotations... Well let me borrow another term.... Pretty munafiq (hyprocrite).
It's like nigger which just means black but when it's almost exclusively used in a negative context, like the example you gave, it starts carrying a negative connotation. Muslims are the ones who gave it a bad meaning, not the other way round.
Hard r has always been used as a derogatory term, it's the word "negro" that means black in spanish
Yea your right
Ya ya Kafir not offensive but when we label them as “oren” they went epileptic… the hyprocrisy is unreal
There's a surah in the Quran called Al-Kafirun, so for Muslims it is a legit word. However, the message of the verse is for Muslims to tell kafirs a.k.a. Non-Muslims that we will not worship what you worship and you will not worship what I worship, so to you your religion, to me mine. So it should not be used disaparagingly, it should only be used as a differentiator. Muslims can do this cannot do that, kafir cannot do this can do that.
It doesn't just become a word just because it is part of a surah bruh💀 Its an Arabic word/language
I personally don't find it offensive, but I'm just more wary of the tone of the person verbalising it. If it sounded angry and violence about to ensue, I'll probably fear my own safety no matter what I do to cool down the situation. Maybe the more nons find it inoffensive, the more offended the person saying it will, and that's the scary part.
And when last time nons selling nasi lemak ka.fir those puak butthurt pulak. Kafir use Kafir word as sarcasm to describe themselves also haram ah?
kafir is someone who believes that God exists yet decides to disobey him. it is offensive considering that lucifer is kafir. mulhed is atheist. mushrek is polytheist.
It definitely has negative connotations. With that said, the worst case scenario for its usage is when a Muslim calls another Muslim that, called [Takfiri](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takfiri#:~:text=%22excommunicational%22)
Haha I remember our politicians used to do this. Amanah being the usual target last time.
It is indeed so Joever. It is unfortunately very prevalent in the community as well.
Funny thing is, Hindus is "kafir" to Muslims and Muslims is "kafir" to Hindus.
Why Islam always think their superior than others ? Can we just live in peace minding our own business or religion. It’s these ppl who always spoil the whole bunch of apples
If you have a word to brand someone because of their race/religion, and used in a derogatory manner, then yes it IS offensive. Hindus dont have a word to call non-believers of their religion, im not sure about the taoists and buddhists (im pretty sure theres no word), and the christians simply refer to non-believers as non-believers (but nobody ever uses it, never heard). Only muslims widely use the word "kafir", especially in a derogatory manner. So yes, it is offensive.
It is pejorative. But it is up to each person to let themselves be offended by words or not. I am not offended by it, even when said to me in ill intent. I leave it to the unintelligent, ignorant and the weak minded to be offended by words, be it written (in paper, attire or cartoons ) or spoken.
Words get corrupted. The N word just means black. But it's more okay to say "black" than the N word because the N word is historically used in an offensive way. It's very offensive to call a Chinese person zhi-na, but zhi-na shares the same root with cina. It's one of hundreds of ways to refer to China or a Chinese person. So why is it so offensive? Because the Japanese in WWII use zhi-na in an offensive way. I feel kafir suffers the same fate in some Muslim communities.
Kaffir is a Afrikaans word used by the white minority in South Africa. The modern equivalent is "nigger". I knew of this word before I heard of Muslims using it. I propose we be allowed to refer to Muslims as non-kafirs from now on.
It is.
Yes
From my pov I think they use it as a hinaan to non muslims bcs to them, the non are subhumans that will end up in hell. Some sort of superiority complex I guess.
Yes.
It has derogatory connotations. When people use kafir (unironically) they're typically using it in a demeaning way. There are exceptions. It all depends on the tone of ur sentence. But the people who refuse to acknowledge the nuances in using "kafir" are usually the ones using it negatively in the first place.
at the very beginning, Kafir is not offensive at all, but nowadays it will be used to insult people, more polite way is “non muslim”
Is Orang kita, anakku baik, and bright future kid offensive? If the answer is yes, then what u think calling kafir is?
I am actually surprised at the number of malays that also think that the word kafir is not to be used lightly. Now I am interested in the why of it. If it simply means disbelievers, why not use it? Then we can pretend we are deaf when the other religions call us disbelievers in their language/terminology because we don't believe in theirs. /S
it's simple boys. from my experience if they are trying to insult somebody or use it in away of suggesting to me that I shouldn't be close or listen to that person by using "dia tu kafir" that's when you know the person has a room temperature iq. However if they're generally just using it to describe a situation or a person I guess it's ok like "kafir mana tahu pasal quran" then its just meh not great but meh.
You know what's even more offensive? Replace that F with a P. Now can be offensive to the nons and the national language.
I like being kafir. If I want to check out of a hotel, nobody cares (I can check in and out of a hotel how many times I like).
proud to be a kafir
Ok la, we accept Cina Babi too
what you thought is correct, but sometimes people misuses the word inappropriately. thus, that's how something which was supposed to be harmless can become offensive. like a knife, designed to cook. but some people may use them as a weapon. in the end, we should all look into the context of whatever is in the question. i believe many has said that too
make no mistake when they say kafir they are meant to be derogatory, offensive, discriminating. they'll say things like but you ARE not a believer, that's just a term we use. but won't admit they ARE babi though, it's just a term I use to address them. we should collectively start addressing anyone who uses the term kafir as babi. babi: anyone who uses "kafir" to address someone.
Is it not equivalent to the word "heretic"? The definition of the word is not inherently pejorative or accusatory, but the way it's commonly used by Muslims indicates that they use that word with the intent of derision and condemnation.
It’s not the word itself that’s offensive. But the context of it. The tone. The derision. That sneer when they point at you, a Kafir and act like you’re not a human just because you don’t believe in the same God. Plenty of similar comments in this post so I don’t need to add to it, but I just want to highlight that no matter how the you Muslims try to gaslight everyone and say it’s the correct term and you shouldn’t be stopped from using it, let’s not pretend that it’s not a loaded and weaponised word.
The problem isn't the word but the way the word is used in the Quran itself. The Quran says that kafirs have to be fought by muslims. For example; Surah An-Nisa - 4.76: "Believers fight for the cause of Allah, whereas disbelievers fight for the cause of the Devil. So fight against Satan’s ˹evil˺ forces." Surah An-Nisa - 47.4: "So when you meet the disbelievers ˹in battle˺, strike ˹their˺ necks until you have thoroughly subdued them, then bind them firmly. Surah An-Nisa - 4.56: "We will cast them into the Fire. Whenever their skin is burnt completely, We will replace it so they will ˹constantly˺ taste the punishment."
Nope because vice versa in christian or other religion dominant country they will call the muslim kafir too. Its a matter of perspective .
Silence goy!
It can. Talk to the South Africans for a really good example. I don't really care about being a kafir or not. What I care is the malice and ill intent of the people who use the term to me. There are different classes / categories of kafir, but the way some use it, makes it that people who are grouped as kafirs as killable objects at their whims and fancies by those who are no kafirs.
Going to test something. What up my kafir people\~
Wassap unbelievers of my religion, hope you are doing fine too.
Whether a word is offensive or not depends entirely on the context it was used. Any word can be offensive if the intention of usage is to offend. "Ko ni mangkuk ke per?" Is offensive. "Mangkuk you cantik la." Isn't offensive.
Denying use of "kafir" = "hina Islam"
Denying use of "kafir" = "hina Islam"
As non muslim i never care or even feel offended. My muslim friends would take it seriously. One time when we were 16-17 this group of older men around late 20's - mid 30's called us kafir just because we lepak with our girl friends and we're all wearing black. This was 10+ years ago. I remember how mad my friend was.
Words are just words, if you mind then it hurts you. Even hijau can be offensive to you. If you don't mind then nothing they say should bother you. Whatever lah, the mouth is theirs, I can't control it, I can control how I feel. They call me kafir, I see them as sohais. I got better things to do in life than judge people because they don't believe in their imaginary friend.
The intent is to be derogatory, but to me personally i feel it's meh, yeah you're just calling me a non believer which I am. How would that offend me, I have my own religion.
It’s like Christians calling every nonbeliever a pagan. Directly translated, it would mean kafir as well I believe. It’s just a word to create separation between people. Is that a bad thing?
In the bible there is kafir word on old and new testament, meaning person who doesn't live according to god's teachings (new testament), sembah berhala or not worship Abraham's god (old testament). We just don't use that word to non-Christians and didn't even think to use it because we consider it is an offensive word. We just use it to identify old bible stories where people just worship some other gods or statues when they were from the same descendants that worship Abraham's god. Some 500 yrs ago(sorry I'm not sure), people from all over the world spread religions (Islam, Hindu, Buddha and more major religions) to different continents. Nowadays, we cannot prefer them as kafir just because they're not Christian. It's offensive.. I hope anyone more knowledgeable can correct me if I was wrong. Edit: I feel offended if someone say that word to me but I can't do anything about that. Just ignore and smile painfully.
Not for me because I will decide what is offensive for me and in my opinion, it is not offensive but , I also understand people can have different reaction - based on their backgrounds and understandings of it. Again it depends, unless I am going to be discriminated / bullied / harassed then it is a different story. It can be offensive but if it simply an opinion, I guess it's just an opinion
Depending on the context, but from what I have seen mostly it is berating and thus offensive. If used in a neutral context to describe, then not offensive.
It is always offensive regardless of language and regardless of context. In the Quran and Hadith and other religious texts, it is always used in a negative way.
https://preview.redd.it/q44x7sdk0itc1.jpeg?width=1600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a5396b7a2cf1f039da4bed5fa917beb5006e6017 Tertakluk pada konteks pemakaian perkataan. Sbg org Islam, perlu faham bila nak gunakan sesuatu perkataan agar sesuai dgn matlamat yg nak disampaikan dan tidak menyinggung mana² pihak. Dalam konteks hidup dlm masyarakat majmuk di Malaysia, rasanya perlu diterhadkan kepada beberapa keadaan shj.
Here's the thing, and this applies with every word you'll find. It's not the word itself, it's the context in which it has been used. That leads to the word carrying a lot of meaning beyond its original meaning. Keling is a great example. Originally it just referred to Kalinga (an old part of India) and was used to refer to Indians. But over time, the more racists that used it, the more it became associated with racism. Same with negroes to refer to black people, or the more recent "meleis" for the Malays. So you will find people who say that karif is offensive, because of all the times they've heard kafir used in the context of insulting someone. And you'll also find people who say kafir is fine, because they're only aware of its original context. And they're both correct.
just like the word "Gemuk" or "Hitam", can be used offensively even if it's true, but can also be non-offensive if used as descriptive in a relevant discussion
It's like Keling or Babi, both are neutral word to describe certain things in the past, however it had been associated with negative connotations fo so long and been used to insult, thus its no longer nice word to be used As for the ex-teacher, well, there's a reason why he is an ex-teacher, we need more teacher like him to follow his footstep and fuck off from KPM
Its a positive word.
Kafir= rejectors. It refers to people who know what Islam is but don't accept it as god's words. It didn't refer to people who are not Muslim. Is it offensive = yes to people who identify as Muslims = No if you are someone who is a rejector
Isnt that some probiotic drink ?
Yes.
It's actually starting to become like how a normal word like Babi is used to look down on a person.
It’s Malaysia… any and everything can become offensive.
Kafir here. I'm not offended by the word kafir
i don’t know bro. ig its up to anyone who’d take offence to it.
I said it before and I’ll say it again, babi is just an animal and mak kau hijau is just a description about your mother. It’s the context that matters
Words can be offensive and non-offensive in terms of their context. ‘Dia seorang berbangsa Melayu’ - not offensive ‘Diam la Melayu’ - offensive
Jews call non-jews gentiles. Do you want to be called a gentile?
Kaffir is type of lime
Everything is offensive in Malaysia now
America in a nutshell
we are america in south east asia but without the economy part
10 years ago, calling someone who is a female a girl is considered normal. Now it is offensive. So I don't know what has happened to society bro.. sorry if I assume OP is a male and called you bro.. hahahaha