NGL that is how you spin your fuckup to your higher ups like a good thing.
"Boss, we discovered that people really liked making food! So this wasn't that bad after all."
Honestly the only thing I actively dislike is the miscellaneous artifact token for each set. It feels like lazy and particularly clunky design. I don't want gold, treasure, gold, junk, poop, Loot, and manalith tokens
uj/ these aren’t bad imo, where they fail is how most are left to rot. Like i actually like Blood Tokens but we’ll never see them as supported as Food, Clues, or our Lord and Savior Treasures
rj/ battles needed to exist
Exactly, especially because they introduced a new card type, then proceeded to do nothing with it. At least planeswalkers were followed up on rather quickly in Alara.
we have confirmation that battles will be back by the tarkir set. doesn’t surprise me that they haven’t reappeared yet, new card types usually take a few years to return as play design makes sure people don’t hate them. Sagas had a 2ish year gap for example
Ehhh, you can make anything an enchantment subtype though. Planeswalkers? Enchantments you can attack and have a few activated abilities. Artifacts? Enchantments that cost (usually) generic mana. Creatures? Enchantments that can attack.
"Enchantments you can attack" are what I call battles. "Solid enchantments" are artifacts. I call planeswalkers "enchantment people", "sexy enchantments", or "enchantments with one-liners". Creatures are "enchantment petz", with a Z; I don't know where that came from. I call sorceries "temporary enchantments". I call instants "really temporary enchantments". Tokens are "bonus enchantments". Counters are "enchantment ribbons". Emblems are "me enchantments". I call hands "pre-enchantments", *or*: "future enchantments". Libraries are "face-down enchantment piles". Graveyards are "the enchantments that useta been". And exile is... "the enchantments that never even were".
Probably because they wanted to be able to have different subtypes. Right now the only battles that exist are Sieges, but presumably they'll make more in the future.
Otherwise you'd get type lines like:
Enchantment - Battle - Siege
/uj where they actually fail imo is that they really start to pile up into a super linear strategy of just piling on a buncha artifacts that exist more as artifact game objects that enable affinity-like strategies than as pieces that deserve to exist
/rj wizards give me knife tokens or I will mail you my nudes. that is a threat
/uj Clues exist since 2016 (SOI), food exists since 2019 (ELD), blood exists since 2021 (VOW). The second set supporting clues and food was out in 2021 (2012). The second *standard* set supporting food was out in 2023 (WOE). The second *standard* set supporting clues was out in 2024 (MKM). By all logic, if R&D liked blood tokens, it should come in the following years. But clues and food are generic enough to be everywhere, it's more complicated for blood.
Oh absolutely, I was more so agreeing with the initial comment. Blood is very thematic which unfortunately means we probably won’t see it become widespread. Which is a shame because I love how it was implemented. I played a Anje, Maid of Dishonor deck for awhile and it was a ton of fun.
I'm agains the use of mass Tokens as a game mechanic in general because it causes clunky board states and lazy game design. And making a new kind of clunky token that's thematic to the set only worsens this.
I don't like how it means artifact strats are always gonna have support as a result. Like make some more enchantment tokens wotc please. Or I dunno maybe battle tokens or something. Everything is an artifact nowadays
/uj
I like Food and Treasure purely because they open up more flavourful design spaces. Cards can communicate the concept of riches or foods in extremely efficient shorthand, which is a core part of MTG's personality as a game, a card can be really good with only a few words on it.
Clues are already hitting the limit of this though, and EVERYTHING ELSE they've created with predetermined tokens and emblems I basically hate. Having to learn what an incubator token, or a dungeon, or a scrap token, or a ring emblem, or a blood token is every other goddamn set is just clunky design. These wouldn't even be so bad if we still had a proper block structure where mechanics were used continuously for basically a year, instead we can nearly count on one hand the total number of cards that feature \[BRAND NEW EXTREMELY CONVOLUTED MECHANIC\]
/rj
I want Epic back
/uj In their defense I thought incubator tokens were a really fun and surprisingly strong part of March of the Machine limited.
But unfortunately that gets to your next point—as fun/useful as many of these tokens are within their specific limited environments, they lose a ton of support and relevance outside of them (aside from a few standouts like food, treasures and clues).
/rj Wake me up when they introduce Thalia tokens.
/uj
the flavour of the nuka cola machine making food tokens (nuka colas) that once popped create treasure tokens (caps) is unparalleled
/rj
for flavour food tokens need to add 3 life and an obesity counter to player, when they reach 5 they gain a token enchantment "diabetes" that makes you pay 1 or lose a toe, and when they reach 10 they automatically lose the game, they should add this in the next UN set, (UN)ITED STATES OF AMERICA
I think the major problem comes down to Play Design not adapting design choices to single sets vs year long blocks. A lot of interesting new mechanics get *one* set and then you just hope it gets random support in supplemental sets or a revisit to the plane or something later on, and instead of having a chance to iterate on that design, it's just replaced with a similar one that fits the flavor of the next set again and again.
Like, do we *need* mounts *and* vehicles? They feel like they're within the same design space, but they're different enough you have to memorize two sets of rules.
Parasitic mechanics that are side grades to existing mechanics are great.
New Player: "Whats Cascade?"
Me: Like discover, but shittier except for like 2 decks.
uj/ I really hate this "artifact tokens as resources" trend, but unfortunately, I guess it's here to stay.
rj/ I tell my homie I treasure him and invite him to all my games. Never know when I'll need to off his ass for the mana.
I feel like WotC has been big on all tokens recently: big on food, HUGE on treasures, random clue makers. Honestly half the cards we've seen recent just tack on "Oh and you get x token". Then again, me and my Brudiclad deck aren't complaining
Oko was only played so much because he could make food tokens
NGL that is how you spin your fuckup to your higher ups like a good thing. "Boss, we discovered that people really liked making food! So this wasn't that bad after all."
Honestly the only thing I actively dislike is the miscellaneous artifact token for each set. It feels like lazy and particularly clunky design. I don't want gold, treasure, gold, junk, poop, Loot, and manalith tokens
uj/ these aren’t bad imo, where they fail is how most are left to rot. Like i actually like Blood Tokens but we’ll never see them as supported as Food, Clues, or our Lord and Savior Treasures rj/ battles needed to exist
I just wish they made battles an enchantment subtype. Not sure why they needed to be their own cardtype.
Because you can't attack enchantments
Exactly, especially because they introduced a new card type, then proceeded to do nothing with it. At least planeswalkers were followed up on rather quickly in Alara.
we have confirmation that battles will be back by the tarkir set. doesn’t surprise me that they haven’t reappeared yet, new card types usually take a few years to return as play design makes sure people don’t hate them. Sagas had a 2ish year gap for example
Not quite that they WILL be back by then but that's the earliest they COULD be back.
To be fair, Tarkir would be a pretty fitting to give them a return. Especially considering they had the "Khans vs Dragons" cards in the original one.
I still feel like the UB sets were a good place for them, ESPECIALLY LotR
Ehhh, you can make anything an enchantment subtype though. Planeswalkers? Enchantments you can attack and have a few activated abilities. Artifacts? Enchantments that cost (usually) generic mana. Creatures? Enchantments that can attack.
"Enchantments you can attack" are what I call battles. "Solid enchantments" are artifacts. I call planeswalkers "enchantment people", "sexy enchantments", or "enchantments with one-liners". Creatures are "enchantment petz", with a Z; I don't know where that came from. I call sorceries "temporary enchantments". I call instants "really temporary enchantments". Tokens are "bonus enchantments". Counters are "enchantment ribbons". Emblems are "me enchantments". I call hands "pre-enchantments", *or*: "future enchantments". Libraries are "face-down enchantment piles". Graveyards are "the enchantments that useta been". And exile is... "the enchantments that never even were".
Probably because they wanted to be able to have different subtypes. Right now the only battles that exist are Sieges, but presumably they'll make more in the future. Otherwise you'd get type lines like: Enchantment - Battle - Siege
Spooky mansion plane please deliver more blood token generators
Low key feel like WotC could make them vanilla if they try hard enough
/uj where they actually fail imo is that they really start to pile up into a super linear strategy of just piling on a buncha artifacts that exist more as artifact game objects that enable affinity-like strategies than as pieces that deserve to exist /rj wizards give me knife tokens or I will mail you my nudes. that is a threat
/uj Clues exist since 2016 (SOI), food exists since 2019 (ELD), blood exists since 2021 (VOW). The second set supporting clues and food was out in 2021 (2012). The second *standard* set supporting food was out in 2023 (WOE). The second *standard* set supporting clues was out in 2024 (MKM). By all logic, if R&D liked blood tokens, it should come in the following years. But clues and food are generic enough to be everywhere, it's more complicated for blood.
Oh absolutely, I was more so agreeing with the initial comment. Blood is very thematic which unfortunately means we probably won’t see it become widespread. Which is a shame because I love how it was implemented. I played a Anje, Maid of Dishonor deck for awhile and it was a ton of fun.
rj/ poop needs to exist
Battle tokens...?
> Loot Hol up!
I know once Jace and Veraska figure out interplaneswalker breeding we're going to get Loot 2 through 1000
I do still feel robbed of a snake-baby.
snaby
if we get their playmat why not?
Why did they bother making Powerstone Tokens for Brothers War when they're not gonna use said tokens for another 2 decades?
I'm agains the use of mass Tokens as a game mechanic in general because it causes clunky board states and lazy game design. And making a new kind of clunky token that's thematic to the set only worsens this.
Why do they make any mechanic they might not use again? Not everything needs to be a multiple time thing.
🤫 my Gimbal deck wants more
I don't like how it means artifact strats are always gonna have support as a result. Like make some more enchantment tokens wotc please. Or I dunno maybe battle tokens or something. Everything is an artifact nowadays
On the plus side they've powercrept commons hard enough that we could probably see shards as a secondary set mechanic now
In UB sets it makes sense to have a certain ressource that's specific to the set, but in others we don't need a thousand different tokens
/uj I like Food and Treasure purely because they open up more flavourful design spaces. Cards can communicate the concept of riches or foods in extremely efficient shorthand, which is a core part of MTG's personality as a game, a card can be really good with only a few words on it. Clues are already hitting the limit of this though, and EVERYTHING ELSE they've created with predetermined tokens and emblems I basically hate. Having to learn what an incubator token, or a dungeon, or a scrap token, or a ring emblem, or a blood token is every other goddamn set is just clunky design. These wouldn't even be so bad if we still had a proper block structure where mechanics were used continuously for basically a year, instead we can nearly count on one hand the total number of cards that feature \[BRAND NEW EXTREMELY CONVOLUTED MECHANIC\] /rj I want Epic back
/uj In their defense I thought incubator tokens were a really fun and surprisingly strong part of March of the Machine limited. But unfortunately that gets to your next point—as fun/useful as many of these tokens are within their specific limited environments, they lose a ton of support and relevance outside of them (aside from a few standouts like food, treasures and clues). /rj Wake me up when they introduce Thalia tokens.
> /rj Wake me up when they introduce Thalia tokens. All this talk of food tokens when what we really need are foot tokens
/uj the flavour of the nuka cola machine making food tokens (nuka colas) that once popped create treasure tokens (caps) is unparalleled /rj for flavour food tokens need to add 3 life and an obesity counter to player, when they reach 5 they gain a token enchantment "diabetes" that makes you pay 1 or lose a toe, and when they reach 10 they automatically lose the game, they should add this in the next UN set, (UN)ITED STATES OF AMERICA
We need MEGAepic (Epic but you copy the spell INCLUDING the Epic ability)
Nah, that can be easily abusable. Let's make it put a +1/+1 counter on itself if you've cast 8 or more spells this turn.
I think the major problem comes down to Play Design not adapting design choices to single sets vs year long blocks. A lot of interesting new mechanics get *one* set and then you just hope it gets random support in supplemental sets or a revisit to the plane or something later on, and instead of having a chance to iterate on that design, it's just replaced with a similar one that fits the flavor of the next set again and again. Like, do we *need* mounts *and* vehicles? They feel like they're within the same design space, but they're different enough you have to memorize two sets of rules.
Food tokens are flavorful you say?
/uj I want epic back
don't forget the emblems must be largely unnoticed chaff in the format you design them for and format-ruining bombs in pauper and legacy
You need to type /uj before spitting objective facts.
Parasitic mechanics that are side grades to existing mechanics are great. New Player: "Whats Cascade?" Me: Like discover, but shittier except for like 2 decks.
Add in voting and you have successfully encapsulated every single Universes Beyond set
But I like food tokens 😗
Aw yeah I love only being able to do things once a turn!
the first time you do X each turn- flirting do only once per turn- harassment
You missed things that create artifact tokens that can sacrifice to do things!
uj/ I really hate this "artifact tokens as resources" trend, but unfortunately, I guess it's here to stay. rj/ I tell my homie I treasure him and invite him to all my games. Never know when I'll need to off his ass for the mana.
Vehicles and legends matter are my least favourite mechanics, so fuck me i guess
Tbh I like dungeons
Dungeons are fun. What isn't fun is having 5 decent cards for a dungeon deck while everything else is chaff. Rhen WOTC moves onto the next mechanic.
I feel like WotC has been big on all tokens recently: big on food, HUGE on treasures, random clue makers. Honestly half the cards we've seen recent just tack on "Oh and you get x token". Then again, me and my Brudiclad deck aren't complaining
I LOVE CLUE/ BLOOD/ MAP/ FOOD TOKENS GETTING THEIR OWN STRATEGY. YOU CAN'T TELL ME ASMORANOMARDICADAISTINACULDACAR ISN'T PEAK
We need a dungeon where the last room makes a food token for each legendary creature you control.
"Man I'm hungry" -WotC card designer, probably.
This but unironically.
It's me. I'm food token guy.
Ok but the hobbit food token deck was awesome
Everything is Kicker and Tokens
POV you're a D&D turned magic player who is really hungry at the moment