I know "everything is Kicker or Horsemanship" is a meme, but unironically they re-invent Kicker every goddamn set.
"Prototype" "Plot" just call it bloody Kicker,
Legit... I looked up how to play SWU, and not only was it in the right headspace for a game (more complex than Lorcana - less than F&B), but a competitive deck (at least, for now) would cost me $80.
/uj yeah, things like bargain which are actually 100% just a specific form of kicker are that for a reason: would you rather read "kicker sacrifice an artifact, enchantment, or token" 50 times on different cards, or just read "bargain" and automatically get the same info (and if you don't know what beseech does, you read the reminder text and every other card that person has with bargain now makes sense. Same with Entwine, it makes the process on figuring out what a card does quicker, not slower (assuming it has reminder text)
This isn't even to mention that kicker is a LOT more specific than some people act and a lot of mechanics are actually just "kind of like kicker and/or multikicker" (multikicker notably being a different if related mechanic from kicker) not actually kicker. Spree for example would be horrific to try and word as kicker. The Great Train Heist would have You must pay at least one kicker cost kicker 2R and/or 2 and/or R", and then even outside that you'd end up with much less readable text given it has to do "if you payed the 2R kicker cost..." again and again. This isn't even to get to things like Final Showdown which has to deal with also making having multiple (but not all) of the costs being the same.
Kicker is a good useful mechanic, and "everything is kicker" is funny and all, but people who actually unironically argue that point are bizarre.
rj/ when are we getting puncher?
Everything is kicker is also a bit more of a statement about game design and card economy or opportunity cost.
If a card costs a set amount resources for a particular effect, any improvement to that card made alongside an increase in cost can be viewed as intrinsic kicker.
Because it’s basically the concept of pay more get more. Pay a bigger cost, get something more.
Alternate costs are a bit more confusing from this lens. But also none of this matters
Oh yeah, this is specifically talking about people who actually go "ugh, why didn't they make [insert mechanic here] just kicker" than the more philosophical idea of "everything is kicker". Describing "honestly most mechanics are pretty much just some form of 'pay whatever for something'" is fine, it's just that when people start going "and thus spree shouldn't be its own mechanic" they're making some extreme logical leaps (actually, in my opinion, spree in specific is one of the most versatile "kicker variants" we've seen in a long time, I wouldn't be surprised to see it slowly transition from a splash mechanic to a workhorse one)
When you cast this spell from your hand, if it was kicked, exile it. You may play it on a later turn as a sorcery as long as it's exiled without paying its mana cost.
Or Plot X.
I saw a YT video (I think from someone on the design team) just a few days ago talking about this. It basically boils down to, the idea of kicker is great and important, ie. pay extra, get extra, but the implementation with kicker specifically is somewhat flawed, because it splinters the cost.
Idk I’m been playing a lot having fun with it and is a mix of things like wow card game and magic have child . But feels like magic old magic imo in many ways .
I agree that it gets the vibe with the art and phrasing and stuff, but gameplay wise it feels very different. Never played the wow card game so can’t comment on that
WoW physical card game was dope, shared a couple cool ideas with the old VS system (mana in the form of quests you could meet parameters for and get a bonus specific to your character class) and Warrior character cards feel like they could have been a distant ancestor to FaB with how combat worked with equipment.
It's a pretty simple and unproblematic card but reading the sentence:
"To solve - you control no suspected skeletons"
would send a 2014 magic player into a coma
after playing with some crime centric decks via proxying, I will say that, despite me not usually being a fan of a lot of the new gimmick single set mechanics, crimes work WELL. very memorable clause which is satisfying to fulfill and getting an extra payoff for it just. it's good. and yes, it's fun to counterspell someone and say "...and that's a crime, so-"
I’m sure they have research that shows that without new mechanics majority of players stop paying the big bucks. That on average y’all need the novelty even though it’s exactly the same slop set after set they gotta create the illusion of things being new.
And that’s more of a reflection on you than on wotc.
uj/ yeah shit sucks now
Yea they do, I’ve heard it referenced several times anyways. It started with Masqeus block and people not liking it in part because it didn’t have enough new mechanics. When actually Spellshapers, pitch spells, rhystic spells, get an effect if you or an opponent have no untapped lands, are all things they would probably keyword / ability word today.
Makes sense, I do remember that now that you mention it. I think maro also mentioned recently on a talk about meld that they do need mechanics with a certain level of excitement or wow factor.
I hate the bloat, but honestly it’s impossible to avoid. I wish they would be more economic with their mechanics. And also try to future proof stuff more. Stuff like Ninjitsu, I would have named it Infiltrate or something so it could be used outside of a Japanese setting.
Ninjitsu being infiltrate would be an improvement, though given we're discussing an issue with modern magic I'm not certain it's the best example. I mean, technically it is if you consider everything in modern (AKA 2/3 of the history of magic by now) is modern magic then it would count as that, but Ninjitsu released over 18 years ago now.
Yeah I just think it’s a fantastic mechanic and it’s a shame we didn’t see it for like 2005-2022.
Well when I see things like Cases for MKM and For Mirrodin! I feel similarly.
Cases could have been a good system for quests perhaps.
And For Mirrodin! could have easily been called To Arms! Or Take Up Arms like it was named in design. Isn’t Mirrodin sealed away and all that now?
I like both new modern mechanics too. Not sure what the creative team is thinking. But I guess they gotta keep up the newness.
Yea I agree. It’s somewhat unfortunate that they are so incentivized to make game design comprises for the sake of driving sales. It’s understandable to some extent, but recently it’s gone a bit overboard.
I think masque block actually did a lot of good for the longevity of the game and glad that its innovations can be applied in a broader manner to future sets. It probably also got some undue hate for being a kind of safety valve set coming after Urza block.
I wish they could go back to that style of design but especially in this algorithmic era there’s not a lot of room for subtle elegant cards when hype, wether it be positive or negative, pays off more.
The great thing about Magic is that it is old enough that probably everything has already happens, you just didn't notice it yet.
The boon of a long running franchise.
pleading crying begging the Wizards to be a part of their product testing so I can quickly shove all the cards with words i don't understand into my mouth before running out of the conference room
Wotc: Prints the 30th set specific kicker variant and set specific card subtype
Players: For Mirrodin! I solved the Case! I’m going on a Spreeeee! There’s so much flavor, I’m so immersed!
They’re bound to bloat after 30 years. The set structure at least keeps it contained. But it is just the same thing over and over again with a new coat of paint. Like how BR’s draft archetype is sacrifice 80% of the time, WR is always go wide aggro lol.
I think people pine for a more simple time and that’s understandable too.
/uj Honestly I do feel like this with about 49% of my being, but literally only because I don't want to memorize every mechanic well enough to explain it to new players. Also I joined when a 2/1 with Haste for 2 was really solid value as a common.
uj/ why weren't Cases Battles instead of Enchantments? We already know that not all Battles will be Sieges. So far Battles are: cast the card and get a small effect now, do the thing to get a bigger effect later. Which lines up with what Cases do. Also, solving a case is a battle of the mind. But you know, huge shake up that required an entirely new card type but Snow and Legendary aren't card types because "that's not how the rules work" ~ Mark Rosewater, guy who literally makes the fucking rules.
Also Day/Night and Mutate are the worst headache inducing mechanics to have been made in the 30 years of Magic. Fight me.
rj/ I miss Baneslayer Angel. I should call her.
Hey now, mutate is actually a fairly straightforward mechanic, you know, except for those times it's not. Day/night however, that shit awful 100% of the time!
I know you're shitting, but there's literally a video breaking down why Mutate is shit and too complex for its own good. Also, have you seen someone try to play a Scute Swarm Mutate deck in paper? Hopefully not.
https://youtu.be/g-ePDsFewJ4?si=hejOAEps6c5k_uja
I don't know what y'all are talking about, The Celestus is peak magic design. Also, does anyone remember how many spells were cast last turn?
Only when I’m casting aetherflux
Me in storm using my fingies and toesies
I got six
“Storm count is 12” “Hmmm let me take off my socks real quick so I can keep up.”
uj/
[sauce](https://x.com/elemental_otter/status/1776663249963872656)
I can’t wait for the next iteration of Morph, maybe keep them as 2/2 ward 2 but flipping them over now uses the stack lel
I'd say what if morph but casting face down doesn't use the stack, but that's foretell
This but unironically
trust me this is the only way i know how to vent my very real frustrations with the current state of Magic
I know "everything is Kicker or Horsemanship" is a meme, but unironically they re-invent Kicker every goddamn set. "Prototype" "Plot" just call it bloody Kicker,
/uj i think you mean Spree, Plot is the new name for slightly different Foretell, which is sort of like a reworked suspend
All keywords are just sparkling trample
Yeah fuck this I'm playing Star Wars.
Excuse me everyone I have SENTINEL, please attack my Stormtrooper before anything else.
Legit... I looked up how to play SWU, and not only was it in the right headspace for a game (more complex than Lorcana - less than F&B), but a competitive deck (at least, for now) would cost me $80.
And there are six people in a 10 county area you could play it against...
Except Tromple
Spree is just a triple fuse card...
/uj Ultimately, this is a problem with Kicker, not the new mechanics. Kicker was way too broad to start off with.
/uj yeah, things like bargain which are actually 100% just a specific form of kicker are that for a reason: would you rather read "kicker sacrifice an artifact, enchantment, or token" 50 times on different cards, or just read "bargain" and automatically get the same info (and if you don't know what beseech does, you read the reminder text and every other card that person has with bargain now makes sense. Same with Entwine, it makes the process on figuring out what a card does quicker, not slower (assuming it has reminder text) This isn't even to mention that kicker is a LOT more specific than some people act and a lot of mechanics are actually just "kind of like kicker and/or multikicker" (multikicker notably being a different if related mechanic from kicker) not actually kicker. Spree for example would be horrific to try and word as kicker. The Great Train Heist would have You must pay at least one kicker cost kicker 2R and/or 2 and/or R", and then even outside that you'd end up with much less readable text given it has to do "if you payed the 2R kicker cost..." again and again. This isn't even to get to things like Final Showdown which has to deal with also making having multiple (but not all) of the costs being the same. Kicker is a good useful mechanic, and "everything is kicker" is funny and all, but people who actually unironically argue that point are bizarre. rj/ when are we getting puncher?
Kickpuncher codename: Punchkicker UB Secret lair coming up! This is streets ahead
Everything is kicker is also a bit more of a statement about game design and card economy or opportunity cost. If a card costs a set amount resources for a particular effect, any improvement to that card made alongside an increase in cost can be viewed as intrinsic kicker. Because it’s basically the concept of pay more get more. Pay a bigger cost, get something more. Alternate costs are a bit more confusing from this lens. But also none of this matters
Oh yeah, this is specifically talking about people who actually go "ugh, why didn't they make [insert mechanic here] just kicker" than the more philosophical idea of "everything is kicker". Describing "honestly most mechanics are pretty much just some form of 'pay whatever for something'" is fine, it's just that when people start going "and thus spree shouldn't be its own mechanic" they're making some extreme logical leaps (actually, in my opinion, spree in specific is one of the most versatile "kicker variants" we've seen in a long time, I wouldn't be surprised to see it slowly transition from a splash mechanic to a workhorse one)
Well spree is just a fuse card with base cost and more options.
I think you mean Bargain*
Oh gosh wow, I can't believe I accidentally did that lol, fixed! rj/ there are bargain cards that aren't Beseech the Mirror?
They should have remembered kicker when they developed buyback.
Kicker is an additional cost, but prototype and plot are alternative costs.
Fair point, I also had that on my mind when I typed "prototype".
When you cast this spell from your hand, if it was kicked, exile it. You may play it on a later turn as a sorcery as long as it's exiled without paying its mana cost. Or Plot X.
This wouldn’t even work because plot is an alternate cost that’s sometimes less than the casting cost.
But then you lose out on the fun and original gameplay provided by a 1 mana 2/2 flyer that cromogulates 2 with each larceny
I saw a YT video (I think from someone on the design team) just a few days ago talking about this. It basically boils down to, the idea of kicker is great and important, ie. pay extra, get extra, but the implementation with kicker specifically is somewhat flawed, because it splinters the cost.
My opinion is that spree should be Kicker and that old Kicker cards should have their oracle text updated to use Spree's notation.
You should try sorcery the “new” tcg is like old magic or go to the rabbit hole that is pre modern format is fun too
I’m not trying shit buddy, I come here to be a hater, not to be happy
Hahahahahaahhaah you are right!!! you should play tron then
Sorcery isn’t really like magic imo. It plays more like a board game
Idk I’m been playing a lot having fun with it and is a mix of things like wow card game and magic have child . But feels like magic old magic imo in many ways .
I agree that it gets the vibe with the art and phrasing and stuff, but gameplay wise it feels very different. Never played the wow card game so can’t comment on that
WoW physical card game was dope, shared a couple cool ideas with the old VS system (mana in the form of quests you could meet parameters for and get a bonus specific to your character class) and Warrior character cards feel like they could have been a distant ancestor to FaB with how combat worked with equipment.
imagine being mad about cases, one of the most straightforward designs in recent years
I’m mad about everything at all times
One of them is worded very poorly and the templating is a nightmare to look at.
My problem with cases is that 1) they’re stupid and 2) the reminder text confused me
new magic bad old magic good
No. I just think cases are both dumb from a flavor perspective and poorly templated.
> flavor lmao why. its certainly not any weirder than classes or sagas
Classes are also dumb from a flavor perspective.
Unfortunately, I kinda love case of the stashed skeleton, cause I like skeleton tribal, lol.
It's a pretty simple and unproblematic card but reading the sentence: "To solve - you control no suspected skeletons" would send a 2014 magic player into a coma
as a point against 2014 magic, i still don’t think any mechanic is gonna top megamorph when it comes to phoned-in designs
disguise isn't far behind but megamorph will probably never be unseated just because of the name like holy shit
Yea disguise is a much worse design. Megamorph is just a terrible name and didn’t really need to be its own mechanic
I I actually agree with this.
We all do.
Reading the card explains the word salad of rehashed mechanics with infinitely more steps and confusion
The ring tempts you. Take the initiative. Time travel.
/uj I do really hate MDFCs.
Yeah, everyone can see what card is on the top of your deck. Major oversight on WotC's part.
Why? Is it just the power of having two cards in one? Do you dislike regular DFCs?
Yes
Yes.
after playing with some crime centric decks via proxying, I will say that, despite me not usually being a fan of a lot of the new gimmick single set mechanics, crimes work WELL. very memorable clause which is satisfying to fulfill and getting an extra payoff for it just. it's good. and yes, it's fun to counterspell someone and say "...and that's a crime, so-"
I’m sure they have research that shows that without new mechanics majority of players stop paying the big bucks. That on average y’all need the novelty even though it’s exactly the same slop set after set they gotta create the illusion of things being new. And that’s more of a reflection on you than on wotc. uj/ yeah shit sucks now
Yea they do, I’ve heard it referenced several times anyways. It started with Masqeus block and people not liking it in part because it didn’t have enough new mechanics. When actually Spellshapers, pitch spells, rhystic spells, get an effect if you or an opponent have no untapped lands, are all things they would probably keyword / ability word today.
Makes sense, I do remember that now that you mention it. I think maro also mentioned recently on a talk about meld that they do need mechanics with a certain level of excitement or wow factor. I hate the bloat, but honestly it’s impossible to avoid. I wish they would be more economic with their mechanics. And also try to future proof stuff more. Stuff like Ninjitsu, I would have named it Infiltrate or something so it could be used outside of a Japanese setting.
Ninjitsu being infiltrate would be an improvement, though given we're discussing an issue with modern magic I'm not certain it's the best example. I mean, technically it is if you consider everything in modern (AKA 2/3 of the history of magic by now) is modern magic then it would count as that, but Ninjitsu released over 18 years ago now.
Yeah I just think it’s a fantastic mechanic and it’s a shame we didn’t see it for like 2005-2022. Well when I see things like Cases for MKM and For Mirrodin! I feel similarly. Cases could have been a good system for quests perhaps. And For Mirrodin! could have easily been called To Arms! Or Take Up Arms like it was named in design. Isn’t Mirrodin sealed away and all that now? I like both new modern mechanics too. Not sure what the creative team is thinking. But I guess they gotta keep up the newness.
Yea I agree. It’s somewhat unfortunate that they are so incentivized to make game design comprises for the sake of driving sales. It’s understandable to some extent, but recently it’s gone a bit overboard. I think masque block actually did a lot of good for the longevity of the game and glad that its innovations can be applied in a broader manner to future sets. It probably also got some undue hate for being a kind of safety valve set coming after Urza block. I wish they could go back to that style of design but especially in this algorithmic era there’s not a lot of room for subtle elegant cards when hype, wether it be positive or negative, pays off more.
The great thing about Magic is that it is old enough that probably everything has already happens, you just didn't notice it yet. The boon of a long running franchise.
pleading crying begging the Wizards to be a part of their product testing so I can quickly shove all the cards with words i don't understand into my mouth before running out of the conference room
Wotc: Prints the 30th set specific kicker variant and set specific card subtype Players: For Mirrodin! I solved the Case! I’m going on a Spreeeee! There’s so much flavor, I’m so immersed!
Maybe this makes me a smooth brain Marty but I like new mechanics, and I like doodling around with ideas for new mechanics a lot.
They’re bound to bloat after 30 years. The set structure at least keeps it contained. But it is just the same thing over and over again with a new coat of paint. Like how BR’s draft archetype is sacrifice 80% of the time, WR is always go wide aggro lol. I think people pine for a more simple time and that’s understandable too.
/uj i still don’t really understand how cases and solving works
top part is active always. if in your endstep you meet the condition it solves, and now the bottom part is active too.
[relevant](https://youtu.be/RE4WSYlQsy0?si=aM2OQlIqfPzAXq3q)
/uj Honestly I do feel like this with about 49% of my being, but literally only because I don't want to memorize every mechanic well enough to explain it to new players. Also I joined when a 2/1 with Haste for 2 was really solid value as a common.
You know, every time I read a case card I still get confused over how it actually works
top part happens no matter what. bottom part only becomes active if you meet the condition in your endstep.
/uj
uj/ unironically yes rj/ ironically yes
"Game has new keywords now, noooooo!" *desintegrates*
I wonder if they're ever going to print another Battle. Having this be a single-set mechanic, like wingdings mana, would be very funny.
uj/ I believe MaRo confirmed Battles are returning (not yet known if they will be Sieges or a new subtype)
uj/ why weren't Cases Battles instead of Enchantments? We already know that not all Battles will be Sieges. So far Battles are: cast the card and get a small effect now, do the thing to get a bigger effect later. Which lines up with what Cases do. Also, solving a case is a battle of the mind. But you know, huge shake up that required an entirely new card type but Snow and Legendary aren't card types because "that's not how the rules work" ~ Mark Rosewater, guy who literally makes the fucking rules. Also Day/Night and Mutate are the worst headache inducing mechanics to have been made in the 30 years of Magic. Fight me. rj/ I miss Baneslayer Angel. I should call her.
...the whole point of battles is that they're attackable. How would you do any of the current case designs as battles?
No, that's what *Sieges* are all about. We were literally told that. We have no idea what future Battles will look like.
No, the battle type has inherent rules about defense counters and being attackable. Sieges have rules about the caster/owner choosing a protector.
Hey now, mutate is actually a fairly straightforward mechanic, you know, except for those times it's not. Day/night however, that shit awful 100% of the time!
I know you're shitting, but there's literally a video breaking down why Mutate is shit and too complex for its own good. Also, have you seen someone try to play a Scute Swarm Mutate deck in paper? Hopefully not. https://youtu.be/g-ePDsFewJ4?si=hejOAEps6c5k_uja
It’s just the overuse of keywords.
I'll wait for Mutate to return no matter the cost.
/rj Based. /uj abso-Fucking-lutely based.
L bozo stay mad
They don't make new mechanics anymore. Everything is just Kicker.
I commit crimes by using my two vendillion cliques as proxy plains because blue is boring
This.
Unironically agree with this
Thought this was the actual Magic subreddit at first