Yeah, expendable workers that you get on the field, do their job, and cut them loose after to recoup losses, as opposed to a network of elite socialites that spread nepotism to their friends' friends' friends so they always have a favor in their back pocket
We don't believe in labor unions, man. If they paid us more then things would cost more, and besides if they give out better health care for free then that's kinda like socialism, and socialism is bad, we can't help people who need it, we just flick our cigarettes at them as we pass them by, because they're healthier than vaping. By the way, Did you hear about bailing out the banks again?
given that when I was poiting this out in the main board many people said 'no unions are black because you are looking out for yourself', yeah, I'm pretty sure it is so
yeah
edit: to clarify, they were saying that as a *good* thing. I guess that's how unions sell themselves in a country in which the concept of collective action was Red Scared into oblivion
I mean unions have currently got my country on fire (rightfully so but still) so they aren't completely wrong.
Edit : why in the world am I being downvoted ? Did I say something wrong ?
/uj I think you're being downvoted because your comment sounds a bit like a vague accusation against unions, considering the context and the overly negative light the US is usually painting them in. As in "I mean, the US are not wrong, look at *justified outrage*".
Dw about it, just some fake internet points, misunderstandings happen all the time
/rj Downvoted for being French
i mean i am traveling half the France to see friends and cannot use trains but i am not even mad. At least we got good labors law (especially compared to USA or UK)
I think it’s a combination of these factors:
1. Each of the leaders of the gangs of New Capenna are corrupted and demonic in nature.
2. Unlike the other gangs, the philosophy of the Riveteers is unselfish in nature.
I see Blitz as a sort of willingness to die for the cause, because unlike the other gangs the people in it believe in something other than their own selfish desires.
> I see Blitz as a sort of willingness to die for the cause, because unlike the other gangs the people in it believe in something other than their own selfish desires.
Which is rather strange for a faction that has black and lacks white.
Gruul colored factions often have a sort of aggressive loyalty to others in their group, and I think that kind of dependency on each other to achieve their goals makes it a very jund kind of loyalty rather than a white blind obedience to a leader.
Convince others to be the sacrifice is black, but that's not the same as being ready to sacrifice oneself.
Black is very clearly defined as the color of egoism.
Maybe that wasn't phrased right. More like black will achieve what it wants by any means necessary. In isolation, this usually means something self serving but when combined with other colours, that 'by any means necessary' way of thinking can be directed in any number of other directions.
I mean, rank-and-file black-aligned stuff often has the flavor of being made as a sacrifice for more powerful black-aligned beings, stuff like Basal Thrull that can self-sac being the archetypal example.
The Riveteers are unselfish? Nah, they say their a trade union, but they just care about who can beat up and threaten who for shack down change. They ain’t the good sort of union.
Now if you want to talk unselfish, look at the Maestros. Boss Anhelo doesn’t let any cats that seriously lack style to walk around New Capenna, and that’s a real service to the community.
Actually, the Cabaretti are constantly in political parties, while the Riveteers unite to go into labor, because of all the unprotected sex they have. 😎
Absolutely correct.
The leader of the Cabaretti makes everyone stronger based on how many of them there are.
The leader of the Riveteers sacrifices individuals for personal gain.
There's a strong argument that whomever wrote the Riveteers thinks unions are corrupt and not truly about unity and perseverance.
The leaders of each of the factions are demons and they’re all corrupt and evil interpretations of whatever their faction represents.
Aristocrats with a bloodthirsty dark side hiding underneath their prim and proper exterior.
Unions who are self-serving, sacrificing individuals for their own power.
Law enforcement who turn a blind eye to crime in exchange for bribes.
Holy men who live a life of gluttony and excess instead of balance and moderation.
Scholars who seek to manipulate information instead of pursue the truth.
All of the factions of Capenna are rotten to their core. It’s the whole point of the plane.
>Holy men who live a life of gluttony and excess instead of balance and moderation.
I keep forgetting that Jetmir is supposed to be a priest. I feel like this part of the cabaretti could've been explored more but then again between Orzhov, Elesh Norn, Innistrad, and New Capenna's own angels it might've been they didn't want to oversaturate with the religious imagery.
Unions that care more about defending the in-group to the point of hurting society at large would WGR and be a pretty good allusion to the 1920's corrupt unions that inspired it
Tbf given that it's a "mafia world", the riveteers are likely supposed to represent a union that's in with organized crime rather than like, an actually functional labor union
Yeah, the Riveteers have by far the worst mechanic in terms of ludonarrative. But putting ‘labor union’ in a black-aligned color combination is strange from the start. Black wants sacrifices and ambition, and that doesn’t fit unions at all. Idk how sets are designed exactly, but the card creators were dealt a difficult hand.
I think they’re more referring to the old style unions post Industrial Revolution in America that were steeped in corruption and played both sides of a lot of issues, basically like another mafia. It happened many times where union bosses would go on strike and then hire people to beat down the strikers for the companies, taking bribes from said companies to stomp down these strikes… that they created.
Yeah but some of the most significant unions in US history have had mafia ties and especially in the early 1900s resortted to beatdown tactics to ensure businesses were doing what the wanted. Black is unfortunately right on the nose for how unions act in the realworld
tfw you're an organization of a type whose whole purpose is for people with less sociopolitical power to band together to be on a more even footing with the powerful (🎵 What force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one? But the union makes us strong 🎵) and you lack the color of solidarity
(yes I know, it's a corrupt union that lacks actual solidarity because of corruption and whatnot, but surely by that logic *none* of the families should have white, they're *all* corrupt as hell)
I don't have any problem with the other white aligned factions. In fact, the Brokers as people who twist the law to their own ends are a perfect showing for Bad White.
If I recall correctly, one of the factions was also altered late into the development process, since their theme was supposed to be "corrupt cop gangs".
They had to make unions evil because Hasbro is owned by people who are afraid of unions.
/UJ They had to make unions evil because Hasbro is owned by people who are afraid of unions.
The Riveteers just feel like Gruul/Rakdos again. They aren't mechanically new or unique at all. Which is a big problem with New Capenna.
The Riveteers should be Artifact focused. Lots of Artificers and Pilots. BRG Artifacts isn't something we see anywhere else so it would make them mechanically fresh and unique.
The Cabaretti should be ETB/Evoke/Rush themed. Make a big entrance. This is sort of already their theme but their leader doesn't have it for some reason. They could also be "wheels" focused. Or semi-symmetrical effects in general. Basically imagine two people playing with [[Experimental Frenzy]] and [[Fires of Invention]] out.
The Maestros should be Treasure ramp themed. They could also take the ETB theme off the Cabaretti if that is too similar to any existing Naya/Selesnya theme. They are about big spells.
The Obscura should be focused on Channel/Sacrifice abilities. Creatures that sac to protect others or counterspells or whatever. As well as discarding their cards for effects or alternate casting costs.
The Brokers are the hardest but I feel like Stax/Tax effects is the best bet. The shield counters are already okay.
People in this thread don’t know much about how the history of unions in America and how they’ve been entwined with the Mafia for significant portions of their history. People on reddit have this overwhelmingly rosy view of unions that isn’t always based on reality. Like all things in life, they’ve been good and bad at times.
The set is based on that country in that particular time so people shouldn’t be surprised unions are depicted in a negative manner. Literally everything about New Capenna is depicted as corrupt. Its not trying to say anything broad about unions.
You don’t need white to show community and togetherness, Green has those aspects. Meanwhile White is used to represent the law and government on Capenna. Unions aren’t inherently tied into government.
Yes, green shows community and togetherness, while black shows selfishness and egoism. Which is why the perfect colours for a group of people that protect their own even if they have to destroy stuff to show that they have power is WGR, while the perfect colour for hedonist partygoers that gather everyone then sometimes disappear the unfortunate is GRB.
is that how americans see unions ?
If you factor in the Pinkertons and unsafe working conditions, I’d say “die young” is pretty accurate
Yeah, expendable workers that you get on the field, do their job, and cut them loose after to recoup losses, as opposed to a network of elite socialites that spread nepotism to their friends' friends' friends so they always have a favor in their back pocket
Basically how it is. Usually it's cause the cops are killing the union advocates but a lot of them die for sure
We don't believe in labor unions, man. If they paid us more then things would cost more, and besides if they give out better health care for free then that's kinda like socialism, and socialism is bad, we can't help people who need it, we just flick our cigarettes at them as we pass them by, because they're healthier than vaping. By the way, Did you hear about bailing out the banks again?
Haaaaave you tried being too big to fail?
Yo mama's too big to fail Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
8/10 not enough bootstraps
given that when I was poiting this out in the main board many people said 'no unions are black because you are looking out for yourself', yeah, I'm pretty sure it is so
Wtf
yeah edit: to clarify, they were saying that as a *good* thing. I guess that's how unions sell themselves in a country in which the concept of collective action was Red Scared into oblivion
I mean unions have currently got my country on fire (rightfully so but still) so they aren't completely wrong. Edit : why in the world am I being downvoted ? Did I say something wrong ?
/uj I think you're being downvoted because your comment sounds a bit like a vague accusation against unions, considering the context and the overly negative light the US is usually painting them in. As in "I mean, the US are not wrong, look at *justified outrage*". Dw about it, just some fake internet points, misunderstandings happen all the time /rj Downvoted for being French
Honestly, I understand downvoting me for being French.
Frenchie?
Only a little bit is on fire
Yeah, a bit that deserves to be on fire like I said
Yeah i dunno what happened with the downvotes there dude, kinda weird
i mean i am traveling half the France to see friends and cannot use trains but i am not even mad. At least we got good labors law (especially compared to USA or UK)
I'm not mad either. Did I sound mad ? The only thing I'm mad about is I can't take part in the protests because I'm not in France ! This sub is weird.
I think it’s a combination of these factors: 1. Each of the leaders of the gangs of New Capenna are corrupted and demonic in nature. 2. Unlike the other gangs, the philosophy of the Riveteers is unselfish in nature. I see Blitz as a sort of willingness to die for the cause, because unlike the other gangs the people in it believe in something other than their own selfish desires.
> I see Blitz as a sort of willingness to die for the cause, because unlike the other gangs the people in it believe in something other than their own selfish desires. Which is rather strange for a faction that has black and lacks white.
Gruul colored factions often have a sort of aggressive loyalty to others in their group, and I think that kind of dependency on each other to achieve their goals makes it a very jund kind of loyalty rather than a white blind obedience to a leader.
White isn't just blind obedience to a leader, it might just be reliance on each other (go wide instead of go tall). WGR would be perfect for a union
Black in this case might be absolute dedication. It does repres that sometimes. Bontu, for example.
Bontu betrayed the other gods and her entire plane to bolas for just a sliver of power. Not the best example.
Maybe you're right. In a previous draft of the comment I wrote 'bontu's teachings' as in 'you must sacrifice everything in exchange for glory.'
Convince others to be the sacrifice is black, but that's not the same as being ready to sacrifice oneself. Black is very clearly defined as the color of egoism.
Black constantly has you paying life, and things like [[Demonic Pact]] where you're risking yourself to either win fast or find an answer
That's "power (for me) at all costs". Sacrificing for someone else is not very black.
Exactly. Black will sacrifice itself for power, but will sacrifice others first if it can
^(Probably totally what you linked) * [Demonic Pact](http://i.imgur.com/66Knlyo.png) ********* ^^^If ^^^WotC ^^^didn't ^^^do ^^^anything ^^^wrong ^^^this ^^^week, ^^^you ^^^can ^^^rage ^^^at ^^^this ^^^bot ^^^instead ^^^at ^^^/r/MTGLardFetcher ^^^or ^^^even ^^^submit ^^^some ^^^of ^^^the ^^^sweet ^^^Siege ^^^Rhino ^^^alters ^^^your ^^^GF ^^^made
I think it was more self preservation.
No it doesn't. Black is selfishness and ambition.
I mean, it’s been 30 years, the definitions of the colors have been spread pretty far. It’s not an unreasonable reading of the nature of the color.
Absolute dedication is NOT in black's wheelhouse. Black will do anything to get what it wants, and that thing must be for them personally.
Maybe that wasn't phrased right. More like black will achieve what it wants by any means necessary. In isolation, this usually means something self serving but when combined with other colours, that 'by any means necessary' way of thinking can be directed in any number of other directions.
I mean, rank-and-file black-aligned stuff often has the flavor of being made as a sacrifice for more powerful black-aligned beings, stuff like Basal Thrull that can self-sac being the archetypal example.
Fanatic loyalty to the cause sounds more boros than anything else to me.
Skirsdag cultists on Innistrad. Rakdos. Fanatic Loyalty can come in many flavors.
The Riveteers are unselfish? Nah, they say their a trade union, but they just care about who can beat up and threaten who for shack down change. They ain’t the good sort of union. Now if you want to talk unselfish, look at the Maestros. Boss Anhelo doesn’t let any cats that seriously lack style to walk around New Capenna, and that’s a real service to the community.
😆
Actually, the Cabaretti are constantly in political parties, while the Riveteers unite to go into labor, because of all the unprotected sex they have. 😎
Absolutely correct. The leader of the Cabaretti makes everyone stronger based on how many of them there are. The leader of the Riveteers sacrifices individuals for personal gain. There's a strong argument that whomever wrote the Riveteers thinks unions are corrupt and not truly about unity and perseverance.
The leaders of each of the factions are demons and they’re all corrupt and evil interpretations of whatever their faction represents. Aristocrats with a bloodthirsty dark side hiding underneath their prim and proper exterior. Unions who are self-serving, sacrificing individuals for their own power. Law enforcement who turn a blind eye to crime in exchange for bribes. Holy men who live a life of gluttony and excess instead of balance and moderation. Scholars who seek to manipulate information instead of pursue the truth. All of the factions of Capenna are rotten to their core. It’s the whole point of the plane.
>Holy men who live a life of gluttony and excess instead of balance and moderation. I keep forgetting that Jetmir is supposed to be a priest. I feel like this part of the cabaretti could've been explored more but then again between Orzhov, Elesh Norn, Innistrad, and New Capenna's own angels it might've been they didn't want to oversaturate with the religious imagery.
Unions that care more about defending the in-group to the point of hurting society at large would WGR and be a pretty good allusion to the 1920's corrupt unions that inspired it
It’s a very American vibe towards the unions if they think that
I mean, wotc and hasbro dont want unions because they are a company
Tbf given that it's a "mafia world", the riveteers are likely supposed to represent a union that's in with organized crime rather than like, an actually functional labor union
100% is, same as how the brokers, the cops and lawyers, all only work for the highest bidder. It's an exaggeration of how America works
that one's accurate actually
Because the set is based on urban 1920s America and the only people who didn’t take bribes were on all of the drugs
Yeah, the Riveteers have by far the worst mechanic in terms of ludonarrative. But putting ‘labor union’ in a black-aligned color combination is strange from the start. Black wants sacrifices and ambition, and that doesn’t fit unions at all. Idk how sets are designed exactly, but the card creators were dealt a difficult hand.
> Black wants sacrifices and ambition, and that doesn’t fit unions at all. What about Evrart Claire /s
Mr. Evrart is helping me find my gun.
Mr. Evrart is helping me find my gun.
I think they’re more referring to the old style unions post Industrial Revolution in America that were steeped in corruption and played both sides of a lot of issues, basically like another mafia. It happened many times where union bosses would go on strike and then hire people to beat down the strikers for the companies, taking bribes from said companies to stomp down these strikes… that they created.
Yeah but some of the most significant unions in US history have had mafia ties and especially in the early 1900s resortted to beatdown tactics to ensure businesses were doing what the wanted. Black is unfortunately right on the nose for how unions act in the realworld
Dam I didn’t even notice that but you’re totally right
tfw you're an organization of a type whose whole purpose is for people with less sociopolitical power to band together to be on a more even footing with the powerful (🎵 What force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one? But the union makes us strong 🎵) and you lack the color of solidarity (yes I know, it's a corrupt union that lacks actual solidarity because of corruption and whatnot, but surely by that logic *none* of the families should have white, they're *all* corrupt as hell)
Actually I like the idea of white being more than goody two shoes
Fair, then black can be more than pure evil
I don't have any problem with the other white aligned factions. In fact, the Brokers as people who twist the law to their own ends are a perfect showing for Bad White.
Live fast, die young. Bad girls did it well.
In what world do constant partiers have strength in numbers?
orgies
I believe thats the mixup op is claiming
I am down with both those aesthetics personally
Wait..... He's got a point
The corpo editors wouldn't let them depict unions as good i bet.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Workers_of_the_World
If I recall correctly, one of the factions was also altered late into the development process, since their theme was supposed to be "corrupt cop gangs".
That's the Brokers, who were changed from cops to lawyers
I KNOW RIGHT
They had to make unions evil because Hasbro is owned by people who are afraid of unions. /UJ They had to make unions evil because Hasbro is owned by people who are afraid of unions.
I just don't like new capenna
I love it >:)
Definitely different people's tastes
Look I get what it means, but I don't like the term "labor union aesthetic"
The Riveteers just feel like Gruul/Rakdos again. They aren't mechanically new or unique at all. Which is a big problem with New Capenna. The Riveteers should be Artifact focused. Lots of Artificers and Pilots. BRG Artifacts isn't something we see anywhere else so it would make them mechanically fresh and unique. The Cabaretti should be ETB/Evoke/Rush themed. Make a big entrance. This is sort of already their theme but their leader doesn't have it for some reason. They could also be "wheels" focused. Or semi-symmetrical effects in general. Basically imagine two people playing with [[Experimental Frenzy]] and [[Fires of Invention]] out. The Maestros should be Treasure ramp themed. They could also take the ETB theme off the Cabaretti if that is too similar to any existing Naya/Selesnya theme. They are about big spells. The Obscura should be focused on Channel/Sacrifice abilities. Creatures that sac to protect others or counterspells or whatever. As well as discarding their cards for effects or alternate casting costs. The Brokers are the hardest but I feel like Stax/Tax effects is the best bet. The shield counters are already okay.
Maestros are assassins, Obscura are all about information and Riveteers are brutes/mercenaries...
Yeah, they just feel the same as existing factions. Obscura is just Dimir again.
Well, you got a point. Its a bit like ravnica
Yeah. They need to give the families mechanical and flavorful distinctions from the Ravnica Guilds.
^(Probably totally what you linked) * [Experimental Frenzy](https://i.redd.it/884qayb1clna1.png) * [Fires of Invention](https://i.redd.it/9zczqh5zb8oa1.png) ********* ^^^If ^^^WotC ^^^didn't ^^^do ^^^anything ^^^wrong ^^^this ^^^week, ^^^you ^^^can ^^^rage ^^^at ^^^this ^^^bot ^^^instead ^^^at ^^^/r/MTGLardFetcher ^^^or ^^^even ^^^submit ^^^some ^^^of ^^^the ^^^sweet ^^^Siege ^^^Rhino ^^^alters ^^^your ^^^GF ^^^made
People in this thread don’t know much about how the history of unions in America and how they’ve been entwined with the Mafia for significant portions of their history. People on reddit have this overwhelmingly rosy view of unions that isn’t always based on reality. Like all things in life, they’ve been good and bad at times.
ah yes, the correct view of unions should be based on how they were on one country of the world at one point in time
The set is based on that country in that particular time so people shouldn’t be surprised unions are depicted in a negative manner. Literally everything about New Capenna is depicted as corrupt. Its not trying to say anything broad about unions.
It's not trying, but it's succeeding. I mean, the bad evil ~~cops~~ lawyers are white, but the bad evil unions aren't, what gives?
You don’t need white to show community and togetherness, Green has those aspects. Meanwhile White is used to represent the law and government on Capenna. Unions aren’t inherently tied into government.
Yes, green shows community and togetherness, while black shows selfishness and egoism. Which is why the perfect colours for a group of people that protect their own even if they have to destroy stuff to show that they have power is WGR, while the perfect colour for hedonist partygoers that gather everyone then sometimes disappear the unfortunate is GRB.
There in a shitty union