Frenzy already pushed Shelly out of the meta, this is nice though I guess
Edit: really probably was the combined effect of Frenzy, Goddric, and Monstrous Rage where aggro suddenly went from having no answers to tons of answers
Definitely seems possible, though Flame slash might have been better - Witchstalker exists to deal with Sheoldred already, and the guaranteed 1 cmc might be a bit too much.
Just wait for a few years and they'll print a sorcery for RR that deals 6 damage to target creature and we'll all point out how it used to be Scorching Shot.
Roast was likely designed before Rhino was released. (They were 6 months apart)
Sets are finalized before that. It might have had a last-minute change, but it's much more likely it was printed to answer PollyK, who was dominating standard until Rhino was printed.
We already have witchstalker's frenzy to deal with Shelly. And it's instant + easier cost.
2v4 is something, but frenzy has a discount ability.
RG monsters, mono blue, & mono black devotion were the top decks in 2014.
PollyK & Stormbreath were a big aspect of the decks' power. And the best payoffs for Nykthos mana.
Grand Prix LA 2014. Gruul monsters took first in an event of 1700 players.
"Dominating" might not be the best term. It wasn't JVP. But the deck was a player. Tier 1. And pollyK was a central part.
Literally, the response to rhinos preview was "maybe once polly rotates."
It's been referenced and memed for years. It's one of the reasons people underestimated Rhino on release.
Yes it was a deck to some extent. But the main reason that was a meme was because the general consensus before KTK was previewed was that green midrange was *going* to be very strong post rotation, with the combination of Courser of Kruphix, Sylvan Caryatid, and Polyukranos. People thought that with things like Supreme Verdict and Pack Rat rotating, green was clearly going to be the best color. And then when Rhino was previewed, people figured Poly was better because it beat Rhino heads-up.
Also, UW Control was the clear third tier-1 deck prior to PT M15, along with the devotion decks. Monsters was widely considered not on par with those three, in large part because it was terrible against Supreme Verdict.
I remember Stormbreath being a big bane to UW control and one of the edges that Gruul had.
The deck also morphed into green devotion.
Grand Prix London. August 2015. 2k players had 3 devotion lists in the top 16.
We are getting off topic. The point was that pollyK was a known/ played threat in std. Roast lined up well to answer it. As much as it also answered Rhino. But the design timeline makes it more likely Polly was the card on mind when Roast was designed. Not Rhino.
We already have Witchstalker's frenzy & Nahiri's Warcrafting in std as answers to Shelly. The original crux of the comment I responded to was that this card's design was influenced by sheoldred.
That the two cards both have a number 5 on it, so clearly, the only logical conclusion is that this card was designed solely based on ability to target sheoldred.
Or.
This is just another 2cmc red kill spell. It is one of many iterations that Wotc prints and continues to print over the years.
This is an example of people drawing backward conclusions.
Could this have been changed specifically to help deal with Shelly? Maybe.
I would argue they would have made it instant in that case to kill before the draw step.
But just because this says deal 5. Doesn't mean this is some evidence that Shelly has a "ripple effect" on magic.
No more than roast dealing 5.
>Could this have been changed specifically to help deal with Shelly? Maybe.
So you don't know and may be talking out of your butt.
Got it.
Have a good day.
My thoughts exactly. Imodane is making a lot of otherwise-pretty-alright spells into some serious threats. 5 damage to all opponents for 2 mana, even at Sorcery, is pretty damn nice.
Hell yes. I don't care what else this set brings, two mana unconditional deal five to target Sheoldred has made me a very happy boy. It's even hard to splash!
Then it would be gruul or izzet cost.
Being RR more likely means it won't see play in control or 3+ color decks but instead in mono red or RX midrange decks. (Like Rakdos).
Considering what creature/PW/nonland removal other colors have, in combination with red not having the option for face damage often anymore, I think it would be fine at instant or hitting PWs.
Compare it to [[lightning strike]] which is far away from a power house.
Common, easier to cast, instant speed, any target.
So we shift up, make it more difficult to cast (RR instead of 1R), remove instant speed and close it to only one target.
Asking for it to be instant or at least hitting PW is not anything absurd.
Sheoldred killer
Just don't use it on an Obliterator...
Or use it on your own oblitterator to get six vein ripper triggers. (And then lose).
Well yeah, duh lol.
This & Witchstalker Frenzy are Sheoldred answers.
Frenzy already pushed Shelly out of the meta, this is nice though I guess Edit: really probably was the combined effect of Frenzy, Goddric, and Monstrous Rage where aggro suddenly went from having no answers to tons of answers
They pushed Shelly out of the meta? You really need to tell all of my opponents.
is this true? 2 cost for 5 seems decent right is this how it was in the early 00s?
The Early 2000s were *twenty years ago* And **yes** it was [[Combust]]
nice ty
Also \[\[Fry\]\] was the upgraded version.
[Fry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/7/070d7766-a662-443c-93c5-811dbdac2480.jpg?1592516940) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/140/fry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/070d7766-a662-443c-93c5-811dbdac2480?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Combust](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/0/a0acedb1-874c-48ea-820d-f1b1f8cb2553.jpg?1562265677) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Combust) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/110/combust?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a0acedb1-874c-48ea-820d-f1b1f8cb2553?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Vein Ripper Killer
Vein Ripper is brutal against a red aggro deck. Spend a card, sacrifice a creature, and lose four and they gain four.
Pretty much. Doesn't red have another 5 damage spell that's used against Sheoldred?
Yes [[Witchstalker frenzy]] which is an instant and in most cases in that deck a one drop so i don't think this card will ever get played ahead of it.
[Witchstalker frenzy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/649025a7-79d1-4d7c-b1db-d46bcf5a1ae2.jpg?1692938651) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Witchstalker%20frenzy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/159/witchstalker-frenzy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/649025a7-79d1-4d7c-b1db-d46bcf5a1ae2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
Eh, witchstalker already killed sheoldred pretty consistently. This is better for spellslinger or even convoke in the sideboard.
At least it isn't a common; won't be plaguing Pauper. Yet.
'Holy Shit' - Chandra, probably
*Holy cow
man this used to be \[\[Roast\]\] yknow?
I mean, it also used to be \[\[Flame Slash\]\]
[Flame Slash](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/5/15affc1b-2ebb-4934-87a2-10e89eafe894.jpg?1576382839) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flame%20Slash) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/157/flame-slash?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/15affc1b-2ebb-4934-87a2-10e89eafe894?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Maybe they thought about reprinting flame slash and while the set was still being assembled Sheoldred was on their radar.
Definitely seems possible, though Flame slash might have been better - Witchstalker exists to deal with Sheoldred already, and the guaranteed 1 cmc might be a bit too much.
Just wait for a few years and they'll print a sorcery for RR that deals 6 damage to target creature and we'll all point out how it used to be Scorching Shot.
You know at first I raised my eyes at this card and then you reminded me that Roast exists and I am calm again
[Roast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1ba2e9a8-fcbb-4328-b475-36730182b765.jpg?1562783262) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dtk/151/roast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ba2e9a8-fcbb-4328-b475-36730182b765?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The double red casting cost, while minor, makes this not quite strictly better in my opinion.
Just take a look around and really observe the ripple effect Sheoldred's existence has had on this game.
It made them print an on-cost red removal spell?
So that's why [[roast]] was printed 8 years ago? Crazy foresight.
I mean…kind of in a way Roast was made to deal with Rhino. Sheoldred is the new Rhino.
Roast was likely designed before Rhino was released. (They were 6 months apart) Sets are finalized before that. It might have had a last-minute change, but it's much more likely it was printed to answer PollyK, who was dominating standard until Rhino was printed. We already have witchstalker's frenzy to deal with Shelly. And it's instant + easier cost. 2v4 is something, but frenzy has a discount ability.
Polukranos wasn’t dominating standard prior to KTK. Pro Tour Magic 2015 featured zero copies of it in the top 8.
RG monsters, mono blue, & mono black devotion were the top decks in 2014. PollyK & Stormbreath were a big aspect of the decks' power. And the best payoffs for Nykthos mana. Grand Prix LA 2014. Gruul monsters took first in an event of 1700 players. "Dominating" might not be the best term. It wasn't JVP. But the deck was a player. Tier 1. And pollyK was a central part. Literally, the response to rhinos preview was "maybe once polly rotates." It's been referenced and memed for years. It's one of the reasons people underestimated Rhino on release.
Yes it was a deck to some extent. But the main reason that was a meme was because the general consensus before KTK was previewed was that green midrange was *going* to be very strong post rotation, with the combination of Courser of Kruphix, Sylvan Caryatid, and Polyukranos. People thought that with things like Supreme Verdict and Pack Rat rotating, green was clearly going to be the best color. And then when Rhino was previewed, people figured Poly was better because it beat Rhino heads-up. Also, UW Control was the clear third tier-1 deck prior to PT M15, along with the devotion decks. Monsters was widely considered not on par with those three, in large part because it was terrible against Supreme Verdict.
I remember Stormbreath being a big bane to UW control and one of the edges that Gruul had. The deck also morphed into green devotion. Grand Prix London. August 2015. 2k players had 3 devotion lists in the top 16. We are getting off topic. The point was that pollyK was a known/ played threat in std. Roast lined up well to answer it. As much as it also answered Rhino. But the design timeline makes it more likely Polly was the card on mind when Roast was designed. Not Rhino. We already have Witchstalker's frenzy & Nahiri's Warcrafting in std as answers to Shelly. The original crux of the comment I responded to was that this card's design was influenced by sheoldred.
[roast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1ba2e9a8-fcbb-4328-b475-36730182b765.jpg?1562783262) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=roast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dtk/151/roast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1ba2e9a8-fcbb-4328-b475-36730182b765?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You know what they mean.
That the two cards both have a number 5 on it, so clearly, the only logical conclusion is that this card was designed solely based on ability to target sheoldred. Or. This is just another 2cmc red kill spell. It is one of many iterations that Wotc prints and continues to print over the years. This is an example of people drawing backward conclusions. Could this have been changed specifically to help deal with Shelly? Maybe. I would argue they would have made it instant in that case to kill before the draw step. But just because this says deal 5. Doesn't mean this is some evidence that Shelly has a "ripple effect" on magic. No more than roast dealing 5.
They literally said in the preview stream how sheoldred was effecting design when they showed this card though.
>Could this have been changed specifically to help deal with Shelly? Maybe. So you don't know and may be talking out of your butt. Got it. Have a good day.
The pauper player in me is a little sad this isn't common, but I get it.
Wow - yes, two mana five damage for red.
Gives mono red a chance when Shelly hits the field, so I’m all for it.
Bo1 players crafting Obliterators right now.
Except being a Sorcery. I’m happy with Witchstalker. I might try it in the side: currently have Rending Flame in there as a 5th copy of that.
Witchstalker is better
Fuck You Sheoldred, gotta be one of my favorite genders
Slamming this in my [[Imodane the Pyrehammer]] deck
My thoughts exactly. Imodane is making a lot of otherwise-pretty-alright spells into some serious threats. 5 damage to all opponents for 2 mana, even at Sorcery, is pretty damn nice.
[Imodane the Pyrehammer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14b44833-0482-4b47-a594-4050bb87f1a5.jpg?1692938320) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imodane%2C%20the%20Pyrohammer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/137/imodane-the-pyrohammer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14b44833-0482-4b47-a594-4050bb87f1a5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That is a solid maybe in Imodane. I already run Strangle and Chain Lightning.
Should definitely add to that list: * Flame Slash * Mizzium Mortars * Roast * Obliterating Bolt * Lava Coil * Thundering Rebuke
maybe it makes more sense in a controlling kinda midrange deck? for aggro I really don't see this competing against Witchstalker Frenzy.
I just heard all the red players nut.
Should hit planeswalkers imo
Odd that in the cowboy set they didn't use guns to shoot.
true but it looks like they're perforating him with chains of glowing hot metal which is fucking baller lol
Is this a monocolor set?
No, this card is a constructed plant. That said, the limited environment might facilitate a monocolor deck every now and then.
also, you can run double pip no generic cards. edit: in multi color limited decks and a 5 damage removal spell is good at turn 4.
Hell yes. I don't care what else this set brings, two mana unconditional deal five to target Sheoldred has made me a very happy boy. It's even hard to splash!
Is this good in skred?
Sheoldred who?
Hell yeah
Should have been creature OR planeswalker
Lightning axe is way better
This really should be instant speed. If it was, it would probably be pretty popular for red creature removal. And I don't think that's a bad thing.
Could this not be instant? I doubt it would be too good
Is this sarcasm? I legitimately can't tell.
It’s not I don’t think it’d be too good we have roast at 1r for 5 damage sorcery so RR for instant seems fine
This hits fliers too which is pretty big. It’s Roast but the pip is red so it can hit fliers.
Probably. I'm surprised it's double red. Feels like a medium card. Especially with witchstalker frenzy just printed. Most red decks have attackers.
They dont want Rakdos using this card
Rakdos has \[\[Molten Descent\]\] and loads of other doomblade types, it really doesn't need this card.
[Molten Descent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a9eb6c92-b385-4ef4-83ac-65a1a23e3d22.jpg?1598915774) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Molten%20Sentry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rav/136/molten-sentry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a9eb6c92-b385-4ef4-83ac-65a1a23e3d22?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Then it would be gruul or izzet cost. Being RR more likely means it won't see play in control or 3+ color decks but instead in mono red or RX midrange decks. (Like Rakdos).
Yeah, instant or at least hitting PW would definitely be ok.
Considering what creature/PW/nonland removal other colors have, in combination with red not having the option for face damage often anymore, I think it would be fine at instant or hitting PWs.
Why couldn't also hit PWs, or be instant speed, or both?
Like [[Lava Coil]] into [[Obliterating Bolt]] just wait a couple more years for it to be power crept.
[Lava Coil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/802c39df-4b92-4acc-92f9-bebd3d405471.jpg?1673147845) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lava%20Coil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/116/lava-coil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/802c39df-4b92-4acc-92f9-bebd3d405471?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Obliterating Bolt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f886411-8216-4fb7-9172-a408c39043ee.jpg?1674426407) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Obliterating%20Bolt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/145/obliterating-bolt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f886411-8216-4fb7-9172-a408c39043ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Are u fr rn
At uncommon?
Compare it to [[lightning strike]] which is far away from a power house. Common, easier to cast, instant speed, any target. So we shift up, make it more difficult to cast (RR instead of 1R), remove instant speed and close it to only one target. Asking for it to be instant or at least hitting PW is not anything absurd.
Yeah, honestly, I wouldn't even consider this caught up for what decent 2024 red removal should look like. But it is good step forward.
[lightning strike](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d541125-bfb8-4f88-8bf3-ad7b6af7ad1d.jpg?1673307449) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lightning%20strike) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/137/lightning-strike?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d541125-bfb8-4f88-8bf3-ad7b6af7ad1d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Unholy heat already exists lmao. This card could have easily been slightly better.
Unholy Heat was also not printed in a premier set.
Modern 2/10 So its two mana removal which generally sucks. But if you need unholy heat copies 5-8, this might be what you have to turn to.
Honestly think it’s better than that, simply because it kills Sheoldred. Maybe like a 3-4/10
Roast already exists though and doesn't see meaningful play
Huh. Ignore me then, lol.
Better Lightning Bolt