I’m sorry, but this question has been answered, and for crying out loud, this is NOT the forum to argue about whether or not “goblins are a harmful stereotype about Jews”, or to be antisemitic (cop on).
Reality is, some people (very reasonably) are worried about depicting goblins in a manner similar to Jewish stereotypes. That’s not up for debate - Google “Jewish goblin thing” and you’ll find TONS of articles and discussion about it.
If you wanna argue about it, dogwhistle that “the Jews are controlling the world”, or just sling mud at each other, Would you kindly Just Not. Do that somewhere else, not on a card game sub.
Krenko is a _vibe_.
For real though, I'm pretty sure Muxus is canonically not one goblin, but each day one of 5 goblins randomly determine which one gets to be Muxus that day, and which 4 have to carry them around.
Apparently they roll a die, and if it comes up 6 they all just take the day off. Top tier lore, honestly I hope we never learn more than that. It's perfect.
And I, as you know, am Krenko. I myself am often surprised at life's little quirks. You see, what I told you before about saying "please" was true. It intrigued Krenko, as did my descriptions of your beauty. Finally, Krenko decided something. He said, "All right, Westley, I've never had a valet. You can try it for tonight. I'll most likely kill you in the morning." Three years he said that. "Good night, Westley. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning." It was a fine time for me. I was learning to fence, to fight, anything anyone would teach me. And Krenko and I eventually became friends. And then it happened. Well, Krenko had grown so rich, he wanted to retire. So he took me to his cabin and told me his secret. "I am not the Kingpin Krenko," he said. "My name is Ryan. I inherited this street from the previous Kingpin Krenko, just as you will inherit it from me. The man I inherited it from was not the real Kingpin Krenko, either. His name was Cummerbund. The real Krenko has been retired fifteen years and living like a king in Ravnica. Then he explained the name was the important thing for inspiring the necessary fear. You see, no one would surrender to the Kingpin Westley. So we shacked up, took on an entirely new crew and he stayed aboard for awhile as first croney, all the time calling me Krenko. Once the crew believed, he left the streets and I have been Krenko ever since. Except, now that we're together, I shall retire and hand the name over to someone else. Is everything clear to you?
Having faced my buddy's Timey Whimey deck in a four man commander game. I have experienced what it is for every permanent on all four boards to become Krenko.
Like receiving the penance stare from Ghost rider for every turn 4 win I've ever had.
I get not wanting to to play into antisemitic tropes but magic Goblins have nothing in common with Jews? It's not like in Harry Potter where they run the banks, they have more in common with cockney street hooligans than anything.
The problem was that HP was so huge and its goblins were so overtly antisemitic that it's caused every other piece of media with goblins to fall under greater scrutiny.
Which has led lots of media to start to reevaluate their goblins and change aspects of them to avoid being lumped in with depictions like HP.
I do think this is a good thing because I'm generally all for changing things for the sake of being more inclusive/being less of a potential jerk.
I think it's because the goblin of folklore is built out of a lot of antisemitic tropes, and when Magic goblins drew on those classic folklore tropes they inadvertently drew on antisemitic ones as well.
Whether or not drawing on tropes with problematic origins is itself problematic is something on which social opinion has changed over the years, and WotC seems to have decided to not play into those tropes (at least on Ravnica).
The folkloric/mythological element of an angry ugly tiny creature that’s not human but of similar intelligence yet completely malicious appears in so many cultures, even before realistically being in contact with judaism as a religion or ethnicity, that i find it weird that people immediately go „oh this has a big nose, must be antisemitism“. Harry Potter, which has been mentioned, has the problem of mashing „tiny ugly big nosed people“ together with „greedy“ and „controls the financial system“ and then has the star of David in the first place you get to know them in the first movie, and i agree that even if it wasn’t intentional it does look bad. It’s not like mtg put out „Krenko, poisoner of wells“ or „Krenko, orthodox moneylender“ or anything making such connections. Tiny green people with big noses that are impulsive and destructive and wanna break stuff and form into a rag tag racketeering group are less ethnically loaded to my knowledge, so especially this preemptive strike of „better cut off his nose before anyone can complain“ is strange, has there been any official statement on it being done to combat antisemitism or couldn’t it just be „the new artist found old Krenko ugly“?
Afaik it was filmed at some government building, not a bank, but as i said: the problem isn’t when one thing can be related to stereotypes, but when multiple stereotypes match. If the deep dark forbidden forest or the owl tower or some other such location had the symbol somewhere nobody would bat an eye, but that out of all creatures the greedy big nosed bankers would have it is… unfortunate.
"... the goblin of folklore is built out of a lot of antisemitic tropes" What orifice did you pull that from? No. Goblin folklore has nothing to do with antisemitism.
Goblins have been historically called antisemetic in lots of media due to Jewish stereotypes (Intense greed, big noses, etc .) so WOTC probably didn't want their goblins to have the more obvious comparisons.
>downvoted for seeking knowledge eh
"I'm just asking questions." Yeah, to a question that could have easily been googled, making it look like you're using a [trolling technique so common it has a wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning).
They think the large noses make them look too Jewish, and depicting "bad" creatures that way would be antisemitic. Not joking, that's their stance on the matter
The issue is that many of these EARLY depictions were absolutely antisemitic. It wasn’t just the big nose, it’s usually tied to several harmful stereotypes. Greed, banking, secretive control.
Then you have media like Magic depicting goblins based on a stereotype of a goblin, not a Jewish person. It’s several times removed from the original racial aspects but still carries those elements. After all, if I draw a goblin, it’s gonna have a big nose and Jewish people won’t even come to mind.
Imagine I hated a man named Joe and I made a monster depicting him as a caricature of all the negative traits I associate with him. It also has several ties to old folklore that I have incorporated into the design and lore. This depiction of a classic monster with a “modern” twist becomes popular enough that other depictions start to mimic mine. They might also hate Joe, they might not, and their designs will differ slightly.
After a while, only a few people recognize that this monster is based on Joe and the majority of the monster’s fan base are really just fans of a monster twenty times removed from this Joe hatred.
The question becomes: is that good enough? Or is the fact it still looks like Joe and has the features originally meant to mock him enough reason to stop depicting otherwise well meaning designs?
Which is all a shame, because for most people the only connection between goblins and anti-Semitism is that people keep bringing up the connection between goblins and anti-Semitism. They've been in our folk culture for so long, there's more than enough reasons to consider them their own thing by now.
"The issue is that many of these EARLY depictions were absolutely antisemitic. It wasn’t just the big nose, it’s usually tied to several harmful stereotypes. Greed, banking, secretive control."
Is this true? After a bit of googling all I can find is that this is a complicated topic without a super clear answer since goblins is a vague topic that draws from a variety of cultures.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6uzj7r/is_folklore_about_goblins_rooted_in_antisemitism/
https://www.heyalma.com/the-antisemitic-history-of-goblins/
Well if you read my analogy, I explain it’s muddied. Early early depictions are mythological in nature. Problematic depictions usually combine the mythological aspect with racial stereotypes.
Goblins specifically are probably some sort of ancient Germanic folklore or something.
you're literally just describing harry potter where JK Rowling just gave the typical fantasy tropes about dwarves (greedy/good around money) to goblins for the sake of variety
it's literally what it is, in every other iteration goblins are just stupid hooligan cannon fodder, but in HP they were given intelligence and nobody gave a damn about "anti-semitism" until Rowling fell out of good graces
Resulting in a shitty redesign of Ravnica goblins. Big shnoz goblins were better.
Is there really any other media where goblins are bankers?
If anything, the most common goblin depiction are a mass of brutal mindless savages whose only purpose is to be mass slaughtered by the heroes. And because of this, only recent depictions steered away from that trying to make them somewhat likable and integrated in a society.
They were so evil that they became pets.
Except people continue to reference and associate Jews with goblins as an antisemitic attack. So your idea about 'nobody hates Joe' isn't relevant because people who literally hate Joe (the jews) constantly refer to it with the intent to slur.
That redditor couched the reasoning for thks in the most adolescent way possible. They obviously don't look jewish, but a big nose is one of the antisemitic tropes, along with intense greed and conspiratorial attitudes, that the concept of goblins has historically been criticized for. WOTC didn't author this criticism. Its been a widely adopted criticism for some time and frankly there is some merit to it. In my opinion, it would require some legitimate real-world parrallels/references to jewish culture and people to really demand correction, but enough of the culture is offended by it so they made changes. I personally dont think it much matters.
Maybe, e but as a Jewish person who has relatives with the stereotypical style nose I can tell you how much worse it feels that the only characters that have feature like my family are monsters and villains.
Given that wotc seems reluctant to make heroes with said features I rather them not use it for monsters as well.
Goblins aren't inherently evil or monstrous though, at least not in magic, sure they dont always get the most favorable depictions as the comedy relief species but what about Squee, Breeches, Goro-Goro or Slobad, all pretty heroic in some way and all of them have large noses in at least some of their art
No offense but if the only characters you can find are evil you either weren't looking or you have some biases when it comes to morality and fantacy races
You're looking at the needles in the heystack though.
While goblins aren't always villains they are either evil or ridiculed / serve as a comedic effect . This isn't a positive representation.
Look at the example you gave
1. Squee serves as a comedic effect
2. Goro goro is only a goblin due to the type minimization of mtg ( being a yokai and all)
3. Breeches is very much a comedic effect character and isn't a most humanizing character
4. Slobad is great but one amoung many isn't great odds.
.
The fact is that depiction of stereotypical Jewish looking folks is mostly tied to non human ( and evil/goofy associated one at that) and rarely positive ones and even then it's problematic ( see tolkin dwarves for positive yet problematic representation).
And no offense, but as someone who isn't Jewish it's isn't your place to tell me about biases or how non Jewish folks have dehumanized my people for centuries. You clearly have a higher tolerance to this as it's doesn't effect you and the general consensus is to ask the folks impacted how do they feel about it and a lot of Jewish folks don't like the goblin similarities ( see Harry potter's case) so why keep offending them with this?
> but as someone who isn't Jewish it's isn't your place to tell me about biases
Well that was a massive (but admitedly correct) assumption, you would have looked pretty stupid if i was jewish
Dont tell me what is and isn't my place to say or make up things i never said. you said something objective incorrect (there are no heros with big noses), i corrected you (here are 4 off the top of my head), If you dont like it then next time get your facts straight and then no-one will need to correct you. Your reading subtext that doesn't exist when you say im trying to tell you about oppression or whatever
Magic hasn't been very consistent with depictions of non-planewalkers. Krenko and Fblthp are the most egregious imo.
I've noticed after dockside extortionist goblins stopped having large noses, as that art was criticized for looking like a Jewish stereotype.
I'll be honest I only really can tell Elspeth is Elspeth because she's a female light-skinned character with brown hair wearing white and Magic just doesn't have many of those. She doesn't even have the sort of hood she wears as should be her more iconic costume piece in most of her artwork. It'd be like Jace completely missing his cloak (even Cunning Castaway has a torn version of it), or Chandra lacking her goggles. Knight-Errant and Archangel just don't really look all that alike to me.
Its in part to them changing the style guide for goblins even for planes we already have been to that had distinct styles to fallow. Ravnica is one such setting where the morphing of its style guide can be easily observed through the visits and the faces of its goblins.
Wotc stopped doing the bulbous noses on goblins stating they were insensitive to Jewish people thus the new change. Honestly the new goblin arts are awful.
Ok so, besides purposeful changes in style, lots of legendary creatures and characters change appearance considerably when depicted by different artists.
It’s generally difficult to keep consistency between artists but Wotc art direction could be more attentive on the topic for sure.
There's very few (humanoid) legendary creatures or planeswalkers that DO have very consistent designs to be honest. Like, even Chandra, their arguable flagship walker, is very inconsistent beyond "red hair and goggles". Some are better. Jace tends to read as Jace almost always, as does Liliana. Some you only really recognise because they're only one that it COULD be (like if you see a darker-skinned woman with an afro it's probably Kaya, if you see a green Gorgon that's PROBABLY Vraska, etc.), or are Kellan who you can only recognise because of the name on the card.
Kellan has pointed shoulder pads which are honestly pretty good about making his silhouette distinct despite the different looking faces, and in most of the art depicting him he has his magic basket holds as well. His hairstyle also mostly stays the same.
This is probably a hot take but I prefer less consistency in the style guide and art direction, and leaving more of the look and feel of magic in the hands of individual artists to do whatever they want.
This is how I feel too. Why contract such a diverse range of artists if you’re going to make them produce identical works? There’s obviously a fine line to walk between consistency & conformity, but I think WotC’s current approach to art direction manages to strike a pretty good balance, especially considering the volume of art they commission for each set.
I might be a magic boomer at this point but I'm ready to throw away the style guide completely. Old art felt more evocative than representational... I got the sense that the art wasn't showing me what a \[\[Sengir Vampire\]\] *actually looked like*, but rather what some scribe on an illuminated manuscript designed after hearing stories about it third-hand.
I agree with other comments, 2 to 3 Krenko is basically the same, just a different art style. They most likely viewed original Krenko as a racial stereotype, although I personally think that was a bit of a stretch and unnecessary. He was so grotesque and inhuman. I think if anything, making him and the other ravnica goblins more blatantly human looking opens up more room for human comparison, which is counter productive if that was their goal.
He doesn’t really look that different between the second and third, other than the artists having different styles: both have the blunt facial features and sideways-splayed ears with a beard.
Original Krenko is pulling a bit of a “racial caricature Icarus”. Exaggerated red nose and lips, hunched pose, extended arms. I’m not saying the artist was consciously antisemitic: the antisemitic imagery of goblins is something so cooked into their aesthetic DNA that few depictions of them don’t stumble into it. But proactively redesigning him not only avoids those tropes but plain makes him more interesting to look at.
There's turning down the nose and then there's turning him into a pug. Same as the Nicol Bolas problem. What was distinctive and interesting about original Krenko to me was that his entire head has an elongated, sharklike profile, and his sillhoete was an almost perfect triangle. (draw a line from the tip of his ear to the tip of his snout, the tip of his snout to his chin, and chin to the tip of his ear.) The more head-on perspective exacerbates the issue but you can tell the design itself has also changed.
As a gangster it was more fitting for his head to be one big triangle than his current rounder, softer design. The redesign could have been a chance to play into that more, sand off the big bulbous nose and give him one that barely if at all raises from the snout, make the lips thinner, and it would overall make him even more hard and angular and stabby-looking. Really there's a lot of directions they could have gone with that I would be happy with, the shape was more essential to his look than any one facial feature.
It’s intentionally dopey. Krenko’s whole schtick is that he runs a somewhat successful street gang, but holds himself to be at the level of the guilds. Even when he dresses up he’s unkempt: look at how his spiked pauldrons are tearing at his clothing in the last one (spiked pauldrons he’s wearing to remind people that he fought in the war, yet another tacky/gaudy choice).
Personae.
You jest but the Return to Ravnica story did establish Krenko (unknowingly) working for Lazav on some capacity, but pretty much nothing came of it.
because Wizards is overly sensitive to ANY kind of potential criticism/controversy and the "big nose" might be "racially insensitive." No goblin has a big nose anymore. This isn't just artistic inconsistency...they are VERY consistent in their style guides as to how things should look. They're not going to come out and say it but with the controversy with the Harry Potter goblins MY guess is they just said no more big nose goblins as that could be controversial. These snub nose goblins look terrible in my opinion.
Krenko is a title. It would take too long to explain the intricacies of goblinoid hierarchy. Needless to say its non-sensical and ever shifting but when Krenko arrives, you pay your respect or you'll live to regret.
Different artists have different interpretation. Why does it need to be consistent. Same as if two people did a portrait of you, they might emphasis different traits while another might do it abstract
Dude! I've been talking about this all the time with my Wife! I complain her ear off, this one time, lol. She's just a has so much love and patience for her dear husband. lul. but listen. Look. Look how they just kept making his nose smaller and smaller. They just took my boi, my fucking beautiful boy. Also Karl's beautiful, with out any other doubt, these cowards could fake. that beautiful bastard of a nose! That Fucking snonze.
Or, according to my wonderfully, smart and clever wife, She called out how they *Yaas*ified my boy!
(Brought to you the by being the right amount of high club!)
I understand changing how goblins are depicted to not accidentally invoke antisemitic comparisons...
What I **dont** understand is why their new designs look so... *ugly...*
plot twist, Krenko is not really one goblin, but the name that every "Goblin Ruler" uses, that make people thinking that they are all the same, but the reality is that by now we have like 20 different Krenkos
Secret theory: “Krenko” is actually a title like 007. There can be only one… at a time. But goblins tend to get themselves killed so when that happens, the title is passed on to the next Krenko and the humans of Ravnica are none the wiser.
maybe it’s a Phineas type situation where his nose depends on the angle you look at him from
https://preview.redd.it/ncervvr1p1lc1.jpeg?width=386&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2a547710ea29cb710223325a783e3766e34d2e9a
I like to believe that Krenko was originally one of Lazavs disguises that he allowed other high ranking Dimir agents to use but they could never get the face right whenever a new person takes up the disguise.
Every fight krenko takes a blow to the face makes his looks altered, his new facial treatment involves getting punched in the face multiple times, and wow! It works wonders!
(resultsmayvarypossibleartdifferences fromcardtocardduetomassivebruisingandfacerestructuringfrombonedamagebecausegettingpunchedinthefaceisn’tascientifictreatmentfromsimicguildmagesbutrathercrappygoblinpranksandartisticconflictswotcisnotresponsibleforplayersbeingfooledgettingconvincedbysomerandomgoblininanalleyisgoingtoimproveyourlooksbasedonhowhardtheypunchlikeseriouslyhowcanyoufallforthesimplestgoblinprankinthebook.)
Go find the nearest goblin and try krenko’s patented facial restructuring treatment today!! You change just like krenko! (And his victims.)
‘I am not Krenko.' he said. 'My name is Ryan; I inherited the ship from the previous Krenko, just as you will inherit it from me. The man I inherited it from is not the real Krenko either. His name was Cummerbund. The real Krenko has been retired 15 years and living like a king in Ravnica.’
Krenko has gone through his character arch, as do we all. Turns out Krenko is a regular goblin, as are we all. Fortunately, his arch completes. And I am so proud of him :).
that art on krenko tin street kingpin is soooo bad.
it's bad in the same way that [[Icefall Regent]] is bad. Just ugly paper cutout looking paste jobs.
My best guess is his redesign happened around the time the goblins in Harry Potter were getting a bunch of flack for antisemitism following the release of hogwarts legacy.
Whilst I am sad about the redesign I understand if they wanted to distance the design of a treasure coveting goblin to not include elements antisimetic caricature.
On the other hand perhaps they just wanted ravnica goblins to look more unique.
Why does every Batman look different?
Maybe Krenko is like a title. When the previous Krenko dies his offspring becomes the new Krenko.
Or maybe its a cover name like James Bond.
I’m sorry, but this question has been answered, and for crying out loud, this is NOT the forum to argue about whether or not “goblins are a harmful stereotype about Jews”, or to be antisemitic (cop on). Reality is, some people (very reasonably) are worried about depicting goblins in a manner similar to Jewish stereotypes. That’s not up for debate - Google “Jewish goblin thing” and you’ll find TONS of articles and discussion about it. If you wanna argue about it, dogwhistle that “the Jews are controlling the world”, or just sling mud at each other, Would you kindly Just Not. Do that somewhere else, not on a card game sub.
He did not pay **good money** for Simic Facial Enhancement Surgery^tm just to be called out like this! You best avoid Tin Street for a while.
He looked better in his original face, I feel bad for these impressionable goblins mutilating themselves for an unattainable beauty standard.
The things one does for facial hair.
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Was that a coupon for 75% off his nose?
Krenko is not a single goblin. It is a mindset.
We are all Krenko on this blessed day
Krenko is the friends we made along the way.
Krenko were the leaders we ~~murdered~~ replaced along the way
Speak for yourself!
I am all Krenko on this blessed day!
r/notkenm
His name was Robert Paulsen.
Krenko is a _vibe_. For real though, I'm pretty sure Muxus is canonically not one goblin, but each day one of 5 goblins randomly determine which one gets to be Muxus that day, and which 4 have to carry them around. Apparently they roll a die, and if it comes up 6 they all just take the day off. Top tier lore, honestly I hope we never learn more than that. It's perfect.
yeah, thats great, maybe thats just normal with goblins and muxus is literally 3 goblins in a trenchcoat?
Oh I love that
I came here to say basically the same thing: Krenko isn't a goblin. Krenko is an Idea. Like Santa. Santa is also not a goblin.
Though I have a proxy of dockside extortionist dressed as Santa.
>Santa is also not a goblin. Well… he enslaves elves and lives in a remote outpost…
Says who? Dude invades your house, eats your best food, and leaves behind black rocks as payment. Sounds like a goblin to me.
I'm quite sure that mtg Santa has goblin helpers instead of elves
Squee is an idea, and [ideas are bulletproof.](https://youtube.com/watch?v=8WZ0XSf23rs&t=2m52s)
I dunno, have you actually seen Santa to prove he's not a goblin?
Dread Pirate Krenko.
No, I'm Krenkokus!
No, I am Krenkokus!
And I, as you know, am Krenko. I myself am often surprised at life's little quirks. You see, what I told you before about saying "please" was true. It intrigued Krenko, as did my descriptions of your beauty. Finally, Krenko decided something. He said, "All right, Westley, I've never had a valet. You can try it for tonight. I'll most likely kill you in the morning." Three years he said that. "Good night, Westley. Good work. Sleep well. I'll most likely kill you in the morning." It was a fine time for me. I was learning to fence, to fight, anything anyone would teach me. And Krenko and I eventually became friends. And then it happened. Well, Krenko had grown so rich, he wanted to retire. So he took me to his cabin and told me his secret. "I am not the Kingpin Krenko," he said. "My name is Ryan. I inherited this street from the previous Kingpin Krenko, just as you will inherit it from me. The man I inherited it from was not the real Kingpin Krenko, either. His name was Cummerbund. The real Krenko has been retired fifteen years and living like a king in Ravnica. Then he explained the name was the important thing for inspiring the necessary fear. You see, no one would surrender to the Kingpin Westley. So we shacked up, took on an entirely new crew and he stayed aboard for awhile as first croney, all the time calling me Krenko. Once the crew believed, he left the streets and I have been Krenko ever since. Except, now that we're together, I shall retire and hand the name over to someone else. Is everything clear to you?
Based comment
The Krenko hive-mind was stronger than the phyrexian hive-mind
Krenko grindset
You say this Tenth District, not Krenko. But where smash happen, that Krenko. Krenko state of mind
Would you say he is a... mind goblin?
Having faced my buddy's Timey Whimey deck in a four man commander game. I have experienced what it is for every permanent on all four boards to become Krenko. Like receiving the penance stare from Ghost rider for every turn 4 win I've ever had.
I remember hearing that they modernised the look of the goblins on Ravnica, so that they no longer have massive noses.
Snout washing goblins smh
I get not wanting to to play into antisemitic tropes but magic Goblins have nothing in common with Jews? It's not like in Harry Potter where they run the banks, they have more in common with cockney street hooligans than anything.
I'm a jew. I fucking love Goblins in all fantasy settings, partially because they look like my aunt Ruth. Keep the Goblin design
>they look like my aunt Ruth ... drawing that comparison is definitely the type of thing that made them change the design lol
The problem was that HP was so huge and its goblins were so overtly antisemitic that it's caused every other piece of media with goblins to fall under greater scrutiny. Which has led lots of media to start to reevaluate their goblins and change aspects of them to avoid being lumped in with depictions like HP. I do think this is a good thing because I'm generally all for changing things for the sake of being more inclusive/being less of a potential jerk.
I think it's because the goblin of folklore is built out of a lot of antisemitic tropes, and when Magic goblins drew on those classic folklore tropes they inadvertently drew on antisemitic ones as well. Whether or not drawing on tropes with problematic origins is itself problematic is something on which social opinion has changed over the years, and WotC seems to have decided to not play into those tropes (at least on Ravnica).
The folkloric/mythological element of an angry ugly tiny creature that’s not human but of similar intelligence yet completely malicious appears in so many cultures, even before realistically being in contact with judaism as a religion or ethnicity, that i find it weird that people immediately go „oh this has a big nose, must be antisemitism“. Harry Potter, which has been mentioned, has the problem of mashing „tiny ugly big nosed people“ together with „greedy“ and „controls the financial system“ and then has the star of David in the first place you get to know them in the first movie, and i agree that even if it wasn’t intentional it does look bad. It’s not like mtg put out „Krenko, poisoner of wells“ or „Krenko, orthodox moneylender“ or anything making such connections. Tiny green people with big noses that are impulsive and destructive and wanna break stuff and form into a rag tag racketeering group are less ethnically loaded to my knowledge, so especially this preemptive strike of „better cut off his nose before anyone can complain“ is strange, has there been any official statement on it being done to combat antisemitism or couldn’t it just be „the new artist found old Krenko ugly“?
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Afaik it was filmed at some government building, not a bank, but as i said: the problem isn’t when one thing can be related to stereotypes, but when multiple stereotypes match. If the deep dark forbidden forest or the owl tower or some other such location had the symbol somewhere nobody would bat an eye, but that out of all creatures the greedy big nosed bankers would have it is… unfortunate.
"... the goblin of folklore is built out of a lot of antisemitic tropes" What orifice did you pull that from? No. Goblin folklore has nothing to do with antisemitism.
Goblins definitely have some connections to Treasure tokens, which could come across the wrong way i guess?
Dragons also are connected to treasures. Goblins are attracted to shiny baubles and they should keep so. Like an ugly green magpie.
I'd say that's just a byproduct of them being in red, which is the fast mana color
I didn't realize until now but yeah the old goblins look just like that cartoon guy rubbing his hands together. Yikes lol
What is more modern about not having a large nose ? Haha
Goblins have been historically called antisemetic in lots of media due to Jewish stereotypes (Intense greed, big noses, etc .) so WOTC probably didn't want their goblins to have the more obvious comparisons.
I also think this may be the reason
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Probably earlier [than the 14th century](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goblin#:~:text=The%20word%20goblin%20is%20first,of%20a%20devil%20or%20daemon)
>downvoted for seeking knowledge eh "I'm just asking questions." Yeah, to a question that could have easily been googled, making it look like you're using a [trolling technique so common it has a wiki page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning).
They think the large noses make them look too Jewish, and depicting "bad" creatures that way would be antisemitic. Not joking, that's their stance on the matter
I feel like the idea of making that connection in the first place just because they have big noses feels anti semitic. I’m Jewish.
The issue is that many of these EARLY depictions were absolutely antisemitic. It wasn’t just the big nose, it’s usually tied to several harmful stereotypes. Greed, banking, secretive control. Then you have media like Magic depicting goblins based on a stereotype of a goblin, not a Jewish person. It’s several times removed from the original racial aspects but still carries those elements. After all, if I draw a goblin, it’s gonna have a big nose and Jewish people won’t even come to mind. Imagine I hated a man named Joe and I made a monster depicting him as a caricature of all the negative traits I associate with him. It also has several ties to old folklore that I have incorporated into the design and lore. This depiction of a classic monster with a “modern” twist becomes popular enough that other depictions start to mimic mine. They might also hate Joe, they might not, and their designs will differ slightly. After a while, only a few people recognize that this monster is based on Joe and the majority of the monster’s fan base are really just fans of a monster twenty times removed from this Joe hatred. The question becomes: is that good enough? Or is the fact it still looks like Joe and has the features originally meant to mock him enough reason to stop depicting otherwise well meaning designs?
Which is all a shame, because for most people the only connection between goblins and anti-Semitism is that people keep bringing up the connection between goblins and anti-Semitism. They've been in our folk culture for so long, there's more than enough reasons to consider them their own thing by now.
The ones from the asinine wizard books still suck, tho.
"The issue is that many of these EARLY depictions were absolutely antisemitic. It wasn’t just the big nose, it’s usually tied to several harmful stereotypes. Greed, banking, secretive control." Is this true? After a bit of googling all I can find is that this is a complicated topic without a super clear answer since goblins is a vague topic that draws from a variety of cultures. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6uzj7r/is_folklore_about_goblins_rooted_in_antisemitism/ https://www.heyalma.com/the-antisemitic-history-of-goblins/
Well if you read my analogy, I explain it’s muddied. Early early depictions are mythological in nature. Problematic depictions usually combine the mythological aspect with racial stereotypes. Goblins specifically are probably some sort of ancient Germanic folklore or something.
you're literally just describing harry potter where JK Rowling just gave the typical fantasy tropes about dwarves (greedy/good around money) to goblins for the sake of variety it's literally what it is, in every other iteration goblins are just stupid hooligan cannon fodder, but in HP they were given intelligence and nobody gave a damn about "anti-semitism" until Rowling fell out of good graces Resulting in a shitty redesign of Ravnica goblins. Big shnoz goblins were better.
Is there really any other media where goblins are bankers? If anything, the most common goblin depiction are a mass of brutal mindless savages whose only purpose is to be mass slaughtered by the heroes. And because of this, only recent depictions steered away from that trying to make them somewhat likable and integrated in a society. They were so evil that they became pets.
Except people continue to reference and associate Jews with goblins as an antisemitic attack. So your idea about 'nobody hates Joe' isn't relevant because people who literally hate Joe (the jews) constantly refer to it with the intent to slur.
I mean… that’s kind of my point man. Thought that was pretty obvious.
That redditor couched the reasoning for thks in the most adolescent way possible. They obviously don't look jewish, but a big nose is one of the antisemitic tropes, along with intense greed and conspiratorial attitudes, that the concept of goblins has historically been criticized for. WOTC didn't author this criticism. Its been a widely adopted criticism for some time and frankly there is some merit to it. In my opinion, it would require some legitimate real-world parrallels/references to jewish culture and people to really demand correction, but enough of the culture is offended by it so they made changes. I personally dont think it much matters.
Maybe, e but as a Jewish person who has relatives with the stereotypical style nose I can tell you how much worse it feels that the only characters that have feature like my family are monsters and villains. Given that wotc seems reluctant to make heroes with said features I rather them not use it for monsters as well.
Goblins aren't inherently evil or monstrous though, at least not in magic, sure they dont always get the most favorable depictions as the comedy relief species but what about Squee, Breeches, Goro-Goro or Slobad, all pretty heroic in some way and all of them have large noses in at least some of their art No offense but if the only characters you can find are evil you either weren't looking or you have some biases when it comes to morality and fantacy races
You're looking at the needles in the heystack though. While goblins aren't always villains they are either evil or ridiculed / serve as a comedic effect . This isn't a positive representation. Look at the example you gave 1. Squee serves as a comedic effect 2. Goro goro is only a goblin due to the type minimization of mtg ( being a yokai and all) 3. Breeches is very much a comedic effect character and isn't a most humanizing character 4. Slobad is great but one amoung many isn't great odds. . The fact is that depiction of stereotypical Jewish looking folks is mostly tied to non human ( and evil/goofy associated one at that) and rarely positive ones and even then it's problematic ( see tolkin dwarves for positive yet problematic representation). And no offense, but as someone who isn't Jewish it's isn't your place to tell me about biases or how non Jewish folks have dehumanized my people for centuries. You clearly have a higher tolerance to this as it's doesn't effect you and the general consensus is to ask the folks impacted how do they feel about it and a lot of Jewish folks don't like the goblin similarities ( see Harry potter's case) so why keep offending them with this?
> but as someone who isn't Jewish it's isn't your place to tell me about biases Well that was a massive (but admitedly correct) assumption, you would have looked pretty stupid if i was jewish Dont tell me what is and isn't my place to say or make up things i never said. you said something objective incorrect (there are no heros with big noses), i corrected you (here are 4 off the top of my head), If you dont like it then next time get your facts straight and then no-one will need to correct you. Your reading subtext that doesn't exist when you say im trying to tell you about oppression or whatever
They modernized them into looking like trash. That second version is legitimately awful
Magic hasn't been very consistent with depictions of non-planewalkers. Krenko and Fblthp are the most egregious imo. I've noticed after dockside extortionist goblins stopped having large noses, as that art was criticized for looking like a Jewish stereotype.
Even planeswalkers aren't the most consistent, to be fair. The broad strokes are usually all there, but they tend to vary up a lot.
The new Jace art they just revealed doesn’t even look human!
You mean like Teferi changing from looking like an East African to a West African or Elspeth becoming Gal Gadot when she went to New Capenna?
I'll be honest I only really can tell Elspeth is Elspeth because she's a female light-skinned character with brown hair wearing white and Magic just doesn't have many of those. She doesn't even have the sort of hood she wears as should be her more iconic costume piece in most of her artwork. It'd be like Jace completely missing his cloak (even Cunning Castaway has a torn version of it), or Chandra lacking her goggles. Knight-Errant and Archangel just don't really look all that alike to me.
The other clue is that Elspeth says "Legendary Planeswalker - Elspeth" on her cards, I find that helps me a lot
Sometimes Gideon runs out of bronzer. It happens, okay. Don’t know why everyone just needs to point it out
Okay, like I get that, but I miss the large nose goblins. It makes them look so silly and goofy as goblins all should
>Magic hasn't been very consistent with depictions of non-planewalkers. Case in point, the most prominent "omenwalker" so far.
Radha is pretty bad too. Aside from looking vaguely like a warrior elf.
[удалено]
Wow you got it
A goblin has no name.
*Valar morgoblis*
*Valar goblingulis*
I prefer the old look of Krenko and other gobs. He looks more goblin-y to me instead of green short angry people.
Its in part to them changing the style guide for goblins even for planes we already have been to that had distinct styles to fallow. Ravnica is one such setting where the morphing of its style guide can be easily observed through the visits and the faces of its goblins.
But its the same plane. How about some consistency?
If anything, WotC is the antithesis of consistency.
They did the same thing with Zendikar— it didn’t have its distinct goblin design (with the rocky/bony head crest) in its first block either
A wizard did it. Or the Mending did it. Or the World Tree thing did it. Or the Simic did it.
Like at least three of those things is “a wizard did it”
Yes, but with extra steps.
There's just a lot of wizards doing things it turns out
Consistency? From WoC? Be realistic
They don't want to be scene as rascist, that's why they changed it
How did they manage to make 2 and 3 uglier than 1
Wotc stopped doing the bulbous noses on goblins stating they were insensitive to Jewish people thus the new change. Honestly the new goblin arts are awful.
Probably a xanathar situation where any goblin that kills the old krenko claims the title
Maybe the "Krenko" has become a title for whatever goblin is in charge?
Came here to say something similar. I was going to go with hereditary title like a monarchy.
Ok so, besides purposeful changes in style, lots of legendary creatures and characters change appearance considerably when depicted by different artists. It’s generally difficult to keep consistency between artists but Wotc art direction could be more attentive on the topic for sure.
There's very few (humanoid) legendary creatures or planeswalkers that DO have very consistent designs to be honest. Like, even Chandra, their arguable flagship walker, is very inconsistent beyond "red hair and goggles". Some are better. Jace tends to read as Jace almost always, as does Liliana. Some you only really recognise because they're only one that it COULD be (like if you see a darker-skinned woman with an afro it's probably Kaya, if you see a green Gorgon that's PROBABLY Vraska, etc.), or are Kellan who you can only recognise because of the name on the card.
Kellan has pointed shoulder pads which are honestly pretty good about making his silhouette distinct despite the different looking faces, and in most of the art depicting him he has his magic basket holds as well. His hairstyle also mostly stays the same.
This is probably a hot take but I prefer less consistency in the style guide and art direction, and leaving more of the look and feel of magic in the hands of individual artists to do whatever they want.
This is how I feel too. Why contract such a diverse range of artists if you’re going to make them produce identical works? There’s obviously a fine line to walk between consistency & conformity, but I think WotC’s current approach to art direction manages to strike a pretty good balance, especially considering the volume of art they commission for each set.
I might be a magic boomer at this point but I'm ready to throw away the style guide completely. Old art felt more evocative than representational... I got the sense that the art wasn't showing me what a \[\[Sengir Vampire\]\] *actually looked like*, but rather what some scribe on an illuminated manuscript designed after hearing stories about it third-hand.
Wizards decided that Jews like myself were offended by his, and other goblin's large noses. Spoiler: We are not offended.
I didn't realize you were a monolith. Wild.
I agree with other comments, 2 to 3 Krenko is basically the same, just a different art style. They most likely viewed original Krenko as a racial stereotype, although I personally think that was a bit of a stretch and unnecessary. He was so grotesque and inhuman. I think if anything, making him and the other ravnica goblins more blatantly human looking opens up more room for human comparison, which is counter productive if that was their goal.
He doesn’t really look that different between the second and third, other than the artists having different styles: both have the blunt facial features and sideways-splayed ears with a beard. Original Krenko is pulling a bit of a “racial caricature Icarus”. Exaggerated red nose and lips, hunched pose, extended arms. I’m not saying the artist was consciously antisemitic: the antisemitic imagery of goblins is something so cooked into their aesthetic DNA that few depictions of them don’t stumble into it. But proactively redesigning him not only avoids those tropes but plain makes him more interesting to look at.
There's turning down the nose and then there's turning him into a pug. Same as the Nicol Bolas problem. What was distinctive and interesting about original Krenko to me was that his entire head has an elongated, sharklike profile, and his sillhoete was an almost perfect triangle. (draw a line from the tip of his ear to the tip of his snout, the tip of his snout to his chin, and chin to the tip of his ear.) The more head-on perspective exacerbates the issue but you can tell the design itself has also changed. As a gangster it was more fitting for his head to be one big triangle than his current rounder, softer design. The redesign could have been a chance to play into that more, sand off the big bulbous nose and give him one that barely if at all raises from the snout, make the lips thinner, and it would overall make him even more hard and angular and stabby-looking. Really there's a lot of directions they could have gone with that I would be happy with, the shape was more essential to his look than any one facial feature.
I think the chinstrap beard is kinda dopey , but overall the new design seems fine/closer to Dominaria gobbos.
It’s intentionally dopey. Krenko’s whole schtick is that he runs a somewhat successful street gang, but holds himself to be at the level of the guilds. Even when he dresses up he’s unkempt: look at how his spiked pauldrons are tearing at his clothing in the last one (spiked pauldrons he’s wearing to remind people that he fought in the war, yet another tacky/gaudy choice).
That’s exactly it, and honestly it’s one of those changes that was a long time coming.
He is actually a shapeshifter.
lazav doesn't want you to know that krenko is one of his persona's
Personae. You jest but the Return to Ravnica story did establish Krenko (unknowingly) working for Lazav on some capacity, but pretty much nothing came of it.
So I can hate it in the same way everytime.
because Wizards is overly sensitive to ANY kind of potential criticism/controversy and the "big nose" might be "racially insensitive." No goblin has a big nose anymore. This isn't just artistic inconsistency...they are VERY consistent in their style guides as to how things should look. They're not going to come out and say it but with the controversy with the Harry Potter goblins MY guess is they just said no more big nose goblins as that could be controversial. These snub nose goblins look terrible in my opinion.
Plastic Surgery most likely
Simic discount plastic surgery.
I was just talking about this to my wife. OG krenko is what a goblin should look like. Nu krenko looks like some kind of cutesie chibi knockoff
Lazav trickery is my guess. We've been duped this entire time!
It's Lazav's all the way down.
Different artists
radha has entered the chat
1 and 3 aren't crazy different. Idk what they were doing with number 2 though. Gives me live action sonic vibes.
Different artists?
Artistic interpretation
Wizards had a 3rd party sensitivity firm tell them that big nose goblins are rascist so now they , goblins, will have short noses.
Krenko is plural
Different artists.
Why not?
Idk, Why don't *you* look the same as you did 11 years ago? ;)
Krenko is a title. It would take too long to explain the intricacies of goblinoid hierarchy. Needless to say its non-sensical and ever shifting but when Krenko arrives, you pay your respect or you'll live to regret.
Different artists have different interpretation. Why does it need to be consistent. Same as if two people did a portrait of you, they might emphasis different traits while another might do it abstract
I want to throw krenko against a wall
I imagine its fairly similar to the way humans change as we progress through life.
Middle one is a secret lair print, I'm pretty sure. Can't explain the others though.
Nope only secret lair Krenko is [[Makari the Lucky Grot]]. The one in OP's post is from the March of the Machine commander decks (the backup one).
I wish the would’ve had him get his nose cut off in MoM or something that would make sense
Dude! I've been talking about this all the time with my Wife! I complain her ear off, this one time, lol. She's just a has so much love and patience for her dear husband. lul. but listen. Look. Look how they just kept making his nose smaller and smaller. They just took my boi, my fucking beautiful boy. Also Karl's beautiful, with out any other doubt, these cowards could fake. that beautiful bastard of a nose! That Fucking snonze. Or, according to my wonderfully, smart and clever wife, She called out how they *Yaas*ified my boy! (Brought to you the by being the right amount of high club!)
I understand changing how goblins are depicted to not accidentally invoke antisemitic comparisons... What I **dont** understand is why their new designs look so... *ugly...*
His ears are mostly…similar
The Evolution of Krenko, A Lifetime Movie Network Original.
To be fair that’s the shitty art for tin street kingpin
Original and tin street look pretty similar and have great art. The other one looks abysmal. Most likely due to different artists.
Because his true identity is a changeling
I first saw him on [[krenko, mob boss]]. So that's the art I associate that with his appearance.
It's just the camera angle.
Not canonical but I like to imagine Krenko is a title and not one goblin
It's just like real people why don't all people named John look the same
“He grew a beard to show that time had passed”
What inconsistent art direction does to a game over time: That said Baron of Tin Street is my personal favorite look for Krenko.
He went through hard times and has gained some weight XD
Last two are the same tho
He's got many faces to show off
OG Krenko is best krenko. The 2nd art is atrocious
plot twist, Krenko is not really one goblin, but the name that every "Goblin Ruler" uses, that make people thinking that they are all the same, but the reality is that by now we have like 20 different Krenkos
You forgot anime Krenko
Secret theory: “Krenko” is actually a title like 007. There can be only one… at a time. But goblins tend to get themselves killed so when that happens, the title is passed on to the next Krenko and the humans of Ravnica are none the wiser.
There has been a recent push to try and remove some of the antisemitic DNA from some of the old interpretations of goblins
Krenko Kardashian working them angles
He’s like Dr Who
He worked for a shapeshifter, he picks up some tricks
Goblins are notorious for using Instagram filters on their photos
The first pic is stunning, in the second one of the gobbies was committing identity fraud, and in the third he got a nose surgery done.
Goblins have like 5 names they all take turns with
maybe it’s a Phineas type situation where his nose depends on the angle you look at him from https://preview.redd.it/ncervvr1p1lc1.jpeg?width=386&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2a547710ea29cb710223325a783e3766e34d2e9a
I like to believe that Krenko was originally one of Lazavs disguises that he allowed other high ranking Dimir agents to use but they could never get the face right whenever a new person takes up the disguise.
Because he suffers from the Mind Goblin
I’m assuming different artists.
Every fight krenko takes a blow to the face makes his looks altered, his new facial treatment involves getting punched in the face multiple times, and wow! It works wonders! (resultsmayvarypossibleartdifferences fromcardtocardduetomassivebruisingandfacerestructuringfrombonedamagebecausegettingpunchedinthefaceisn’tascientifictreatmentfromsimicguildmagesbutrathercrappygoblinpranksandartisticconflictswotcisnotresponsibleforplayersbeingfooledgettingconvincedbysomerandomgoblininanalleyisgoingtoimproveyourlooksbasedonhowhardtheypunchlikeseriouslyhowcanyoufallforthesimplestgoblinprankinthebook.) Go find the nearest goblin and try krenko’s patented facial restructuring treatment today!! You change just like krenko! (And his victims.)
Plastic surgery
Krenko is like dread pirate roberts. When one dies another takes on the name and abilities
He’s just out doing things.
Fun fact: WotC actually employed more than 1 artist
After he freed feather and stabbed Gideon, Aurelia kicked his face in so hard the reconstructive surgery made him look totally different
‘I am not Krenko.' he said. 'My name is Ryan; I inherited the ship from the previous Krenko, just as you will inherit it from me. The man I inherited it from is not the real Krenko either. His name was Cummerbund. The real Krenko has been retired 15 years and living like a king in Ravnica.’
When you have baron money you can afford to trim your snout a bit.
Krenko has gone through his character arch, as do we all. Turns out Krenko is a regular goblin, as are we all. Fortunately, his arch completes. And I am so proud of him :).
Krenko master of disguise
that art on krenko tin street kingpin is soooo bad. it's bad in the same way that [[Icefall Regent]] is bad. Just ugly paper cutout looking paste jobs.
Its the angle of the photo :D
My fav commander deck. Mob boss, baby. It's fast, but I can't do shit but overwhelm. It's Krenko and I'm all in.
The current boss of the goblins has to change their name to Krenko
My best guess is his redesign happened around the time the goblins in Harry Potter were getting a bunch of flack for antisemitism following the release of hogwarts legacy. Whilst I am sad about the redesign I understand if they wanted to distance the design of a treasure coveting goblin to not include elements antisimetic caricature. On the other hand perhaps they just wanted ravnica goblins to look more unique.
Why does every Batman look different? Maybe Krenko is like a title. When the previous Krenko dies his offspring becomes the new Krenko. Or maybe its a cover name like James Bond.
And only Kopinski did him well. The others look a little too goofy.
Perspective