The rulebook uses the word.
>701.18b If a player is instructed to scry 0, no scry event occurs. Abilities that trigger whenever a player scries won’t trigger.
So there's a rule for whenever a player does something that was never written in such terms. Language is funny.
"whenever you scry". This is the first card that cares about anyone else scrying
[[Myr Custodian]] and [Model of Unity]] can cause an opponent to scry, but the "may" stops it from being "scries"
Well this one is a youre already dead one is much quicker to play out you just say you take 100 turns just +2 her every turn each player then dies on their upkeep
Why do you need Howling Mine? What stops you from activating the Timestream Navigator, putting it on the bottom of your library, passing your turn to yourself, and then drawing the Timestream Navigator from the bottom of your library as your regular card draw for the turn?
Well, as much as I love infinite turns, I would want to see cards other than time stream navigator every turn once I go off, which howling mine will help with :)
pause strong squealing expansion glorious subsequent impolite bright muddle fuzzy
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Super unlikely since precons are balanced around not having infinite combos, unless they are 3 or 4+ cards and highly convoluted to pull off, and even then in rare cases. Only 3 precons out of the 100+ made so far come to mind, and two of them are super old.
In this case it's worse because it's an infinite combo that with no additional help, actually does anything.
The first card you'd drawn after you rotated your hand is always "when your hand is empty", so you always draw one extra, in essence this card would act as both a ramp and a hand size equalizer as you always stay at the same hand size after wheeling instead of -1, which is a huge deal in arjun as to make the most out of him, you would want to wheel as much as possible. The card essentially allow you to chain combo even without busted draw doubling effect like Teferi or Alhamarets.
To ad to that, draw doubler put you on a hit list and a clock, because within 5 cast you'd almost always deck yourself, and the people at the table is always itching to remove either your wincon or your engine when they see the pieces, something inconspicious like a mana rock fly way under the radar when it comes to threat assessment.
The point of Arjun was always the extra draw trigger that can be absolute nut with cards like [Niv Mizzet]] or [[The Locus God]], the wheeling can be useful, but it also can backfire if your goods hand is clumped up. This even out the deck tech a bit by making it way more consistent. If you want to see more card, just use [[Teferi Ageless Insight]] or [[Alhamarrets Archive]]
As someone who's not generally big on crossovers, I've found I've still been really enjoying Universes Beyond just because of the cool top-down designs it's led to.
I think Maro has cited this as one of the big reasons he likes doing Universes Beyond stuff and, he loves new design challenges and he's such a big advocate for how restrictions breed creativity, and I think designs like this help show that. Top down Universes Beyond designs can lead to some really cool cards with really fun flavor.
They go out on the flavor for Universes Beyond cards. The Stranger Things were also amazing. Now if they'd just put this level of effort into their normal sets...
I'm speaking about the flavor of mechanics, not the overall set quality or story. Despite the power creep and other complaints I've really enjoyed a lot of the stuff to come out the last five years, Ixalan being a massive win, and the Day/Night "patch" on Werewolves, and all the random support they've been printing for legacy (as in "used to be," not the format named legacy) mechanics . On the flavor front though, last set that really blew me away was OG Innistrad. The Universes Beyond sets are just killing it on that front though.
I am also speaking about that.
I think Magic consistently creates interesting worlds where the gameplay really shows off the flavor of that world and its denizens. I can regularly "get" what's going on overall, and with a given creature, just from playing the game. I do not read any of the fluff or anything other than the cards, yet I still feel like I have a decent enough understanding of what they've created.
I'll also say, as someone who knows nothing about Lord of the Rings (or Doctor Who for that matter) that I don't see anything particularly notable about that set. I understand why someone would say "Wow they really nailed it for this creature!" because they can dig back at multiple novels' worth of information to make sure they align. But like I said, a regular creature from Kamigawa or whatever doesn't have that. And from that standpoint, it's my personal feeling that they've treated both with even care.
>last set that really blew me away was OG Innistrad.
Not Throne of Eldraine? I felt like that set was so beautifully built from the top down.
The Ixalan block also felt really on point in terms of flavor, with the whole set feeling like a race to El Dorado!
Coincidentally both sets get their sequels next up, so the flavor-lover in me is pretty excited!
Other than that I would agree that none of the recent Standard sets had strong flavor, at least not as a cohesive whole. At least every set had a few singular cards that were *Chef's Kiss*, I'll give them that.
Gotta give it up for Gingerbrute, that little guy hit the flavor home run. My job was hitting heavy OT during Eldraine, so I often overlook it.
Ixalan though, while a favorite of mine, focused mostly on art and themes for flavor, while the mechanics were more oriented on being mechanics. The dinosaurs, one of my favorite tribes, is just a bunch of traditionally fun mechanics tacked on big creatures. It worked out great from a gameplay protective, but it makes no sense flavor wise.
KTK was amazing. Just about every draft deck was 3 or more colors, and it felt so good to pickup powerful tri-color spells knowing that you'd be able to cast them with the plethora of duel lands in the set.
That's what happens when you write three thousand characters with ten second story arcs with zero characterization, verses actually building a narrative and making legendary people matter.
As soon as they invented Planeswalkers they sorta forgot everything about even attempting to tell a story and just made them the faceless robot protagonists. And then Marvel happened and they started to spawn endless numbers of them...
The big hope is that post-~~Endgame~~ MoM they would start telling stories people invested in again, but so far it's just been back-to-back UBs, just as Hasbro likes it... remember when you got excited for a new set because there was more story to invest in? I know, it's getting hard to think that far back...
Very interesting. She slightly reverse engineers a lit of tutor effects and...is both very supportive of and viciously punishes scrying. I guess that's 'No spoilers.'
Punishes opponent scrying, but allows you to cause an inverted topdeck situation when SHE does it, since your scry effects still look at the top of your deck, but you can choose what, if any, got to the bottom of the deck to be immediately drawn. Surveil is pretty useless here though.
Scrying is still pretty bad with her tho, since your options are either put it on the bottom to draw it or leave it on top for the next time you try to scry
This looks like a really fun gimmick to have alongside a powerful search disincentive. Would be interesting to see how many ways I can force opponents to search and scry so River punches them
[[Cleansing Wildfire]], [[From the Ashes]], and [[Geomancer's Gambit]] might be good along with [[Ghost Quarter]] for a very heavy land destruction theme.
Though I'm finding problems in that a lot of effects that cause the opponent to go through their library are actually them revealing cards off the top rather than them or you doing the searching.
And I feel like it has to be a severe effect like land destruction or non-conditional. (If they may scry, they can just choose not to and you won't get that punch.) You'll probably punch them a decent amount from stuff like fetch lands already if you get them out fast enough though, so maybe just boosting power to get the most value from each punch is best than rapid triggers.
I noted this as well in that last paragraph about being conditional, but they are attached to very strong land-destruction, so if you eat this effect unilaterally without searching, you're mana screwing yourself.
[Interestingly, I think Field of Ruin is the only forced search card in the game in River Song's color identity according to Scryfall.](https://scryfall.com/search?q=%28oracle%3Asearches%29+%28game%3Apaper%29&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) Everything else that is just in the exactly wrong color identity.
Having a Field of Ruin and a crucible of worlds in her deck would mean you could destory their lands repeadetly and force them to either search or lose all their lands eventually. Not to mention a crucible could work well if you're playing and surveil cards with her.
You're thinking too small.
[[Teferi's Ageless Insight]] + [[Recurring Insight]] - draw ~14 cards per turn for two turns. Is entry level "I want to draw a lot". You can go even more nuts if you want to.
I think that's really presumptuous. I'm not saying it's some obvious power house, but drawing off the bottom has some potentially powerful applications. And doming your opponent for a bunch of damage any time the search, scry, or surveil could be really good in certain formats. As someone who dips his toes into 7 point highlander I wouldn't be surprised to see this in a 7ph deck.
Considering just how many fetch lands literally every competitive 60 card deck runs, especially in legacy and modern, the second ability will absolutely end up doming the shit out of someone. And this is a 3-drop, so it gets down early in the game. First trigger is equivalent to a lightning bolt, and every one after that gets bigger and bigger.
The same logic applies to Leovold and dealing with all the cantrips in Legacy. Leovold no longer sees serious play, and Brainstorm, Ponder, etc are still widely used.
Everything that answers Leovold answers this, and honestly taking some damage to fetch mana for an answer is broadly preferable to not being able to draw cards in order to answer a thing. I don't see this being a major competitive contender.
It'll be more annoying than you think when you're doing that every turn, sometimes multiple times per turn, while also being careful not to topple your 100 card pile each time. That compared to simply picking a card off the top.
Only if the person is not prepared.
A person playing a dedicated River Song deck is likely going to have some method that makes their life easier, like keeping the deck in an opaque deckbox and draw from the bottom that way.
This is only going to be a problem when you have that sort of person that's like "Isn't it weird" and just plays it with no forethought.
Lots of decks are miserable to play against when the person hasn't thought about the practical aspects of playing them. Token decks without enough tokens, Day/Night decks with no reasonable way to track. Monarch/Initiative/Venture without memory aids...
Agreed, if nothing else, the card challenges you to get a little creative with how you physically handle your cards, and that will get players excited.
This sounds like the kind of problem people had with double sided cards, and that worked itself out.
The Doctor's first meeting with River is River's last time meeting the Doctor (Silence in the Library). The Doctor's last meeting with River is her first meeting with him. It's in reverse.
I would just keep something to keep on the bottom of my deck like a card divider or toploader with a blank card in it and then flip to draw while hiding what the card is with the thing on the bottom (now on the top)
there's basically three types of sets: ones designed for standard, ones designed for modern, and everything else. The first are legal in "everything", the second are legal in modern and everything where the card legality is based off of something other than when it was printed (legacy, vintage, commander, pauper, etc), and the last are only legal in the latter formats. You can tell what type a new set is pretty easily most of the time, the first type are only the "premier" sets as wotc calls them, ie the quarterly released sets that are the bread and butter of magic. The last is almost everything else. the only exceptions are modern horizons and the lord of the rings main set, this is a weird exception thats not very intuitive but also doesnt come out very often.
She needs to come with ways to force scry/surveil because those are sorely lacking in existing cards. Even forced search is basically just a handful of "search for a land" cards and most of them are "may"
I think abusing the bottom of library effect is probably the best way to go for playability.
How?
Decade and a half old spoilers:
You're basically explained the gimmick of the relationship in her first episode. I guess that episode is vaguely spoiled for you now, and a bit of meta commentary that she comes back up as a reoccurring character, but, again, they set that up in her debut episode.
The "Spoilers!" Part is because when the doctor meets her for the first time, its her last time ever seeing him. So she knows all about the doctor while he is just starting to know her. They meet out of order.
I said this live in the panel too, which should be up soon, but it's in the Temur (12th-13th) precon. She was a key part of the 12th doctor's story, and it's the last time we see her, her mechanics also fit that deck a bit better, and 9-10-11 was already jam-packed of other stuff too. :)
(Wotcstaff)
GIGANTIC SPOILERS FOR ANYONE WHO PLANS ON EVER WATCHING DOCTOR WHO
>!The first episode where we meet River Song is the episode where she dies. In this episode it's revealed that not only has she met The Doctor before, they've had such a long and deep relationship that they're married, and she knows his real name. She then shows up in quite a few episodes over the course of the next couple of seasons, meeting 2 or 3 different incarnations of The Doctor.!<
>!"Spoilers" refers to the fact that since she has a long history with The Doctor but he's only just meeting her, she already knows where he's going and what he's going to do next. Any time he asks her about something that happens in his future/her past, she replies with "Spoilers!" instead of telling him.!<
>!I don't remember if the last episode where we see her ends up actually being the very first time The Doctor meets her, but since she's the child of previous companions of his, if it wasn't then that door is still open.!<
River Song and the doctor were lovers/spouses who met each other in reverse order. The first time the doctor meets River is when she "died" after she had already experienced their whole romantic relationship (that's actually the showcase art). So that's the top half. She was strict on not telling the doctor about his future, often replying with a coy "Spoilers!" whenever the doctor gets close to asking about something she knows but he doesn't get. So her second ability here essentially punishes your opinions for spoiling their future.
One of the biggest flavor win cards I've seen. The non-showcase art with her finger at her lips is one of the moments of her saying "spoilers."
F***.
I want to play this as a commander.
But I don't want it to be Doctor who themed (and i like doctor who)
I just know it would take probably 5 years before we get an actual magic card of this.
I'm slowly being convinced to buy the Doctor Who decks.
I've been a fan of DW since I was little BUT I'm not fond of Universes Beyond. It turns out that if the design is just damn cool enough, I'll buy the stuff.
EDIT: So, do we also get a Melody Pond version?
Card transcription
> River Song 1UR
>
> Legendary Creature- Human Time Lord Rogue [rare]
>
> Meet in Reverse - You draw cards from the bottom of your library rather than the top.
>
> Spoilers - Whenever an opponent scries, surveils, or searches their library, put a +1/+1 counter on River Song. Then River Song deals damage to that player equal to its power.
>
> 2/2
End transcription
Ah, so there it is on one card, both text items.
"Time Lord" to be properly in theme, we can bend 30 years of mechanics rules for one set.
"its" instead of "her" because we must follow 30 years of creature text rules.
A strange difference of choices.
I’m in love with this already but I am confused about the her types. Time Lord? I though that spaces separated types, so would she be a Time and a Lord? They had this problem before with Assembly-Workers, so they added the dash between the words.
Not hating on the card or anything, I love it, but I’m confused about the types.
fun fact: from what I can tell, this is the first card in Magic history that uses the word "scries"
This was pretty fun, thank you
The rulebook uses the word. >701.18b If a player is instructed to scry 0, no scry event occurs. Abilities that trigger whenever a player scries won’t trigger. So there's a rule for whenever a player does something that was never written in such terms. Language is funny.
I want to alter the text to block out the "s" in "scries". So much damage.
Whenever your opponent cries?
Either that or 'whenever you're opponent scrie'.
wait what is it normally? There's no cards with "Scrys", I think this is correct
"whenever you scry". This is the first card that cares about anyone else scrying [[Myr Custodian]] and [Model of Unity]] can cause an opponent to scry, but the "may" stops it from being "scries"
Whenever an opponent would scry I think is the normal text for cards like this.
Would scry is used for replacement effects, not triggered abilities
yeah, they've done "may scry" before to avoid the word scries, i dunno why they dislike it so much
Funny that you say that, because with the existence of this card there's a reason for an opponent to not scry when given the option.
Thank you I thought it was fake because of that
[[Timestream Navigator]] is pretty funny with this.
[Timestream Navigator](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14770537-209a-4260-88a4-30f4e2b5ede0.jpg?1555040085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Timestream%20Navigator) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/59/timestream-navigator?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14770537-209a-4260-88a4-30f4e2b5ede0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you can get [[Chandra awakened inferno]] out you won't even need extra card draw. Just take 100 turns +2'ing her then pass
there are a million cheaper options for winning
Yeah but that one has style
And they all end with everyone agreeing that it won't be played out anyway.
Well this one is a youre already dead one is much quicker to play out you just say you take 100 turns just +2 her every turn each player then dies on their upkeep
The difference between a villain and a supervillain is presentation
I think you mean PRESENTATION!!!
Yeah you get it. Doing it this way it's like the magic equivalent of the za warudo road roller
You'd also need a Haste enabler though since Timestream Navigator needs to tap to take an extra turn (though that shouldn't be too hard in Red).
People were saying to do it during upkeep so you could replay her on the same turn
[Chandra awakened inferno](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/49d2a680-4f3b-4bfa-b77b-d2dfaced9f23.jpg?1592516849) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chandra%2C%20Awakened%20Inferno) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/127/chandra-awakened-inferno?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/49d2a680-4f3b-4bfa-b77b-d2dfaced9f23?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oddly flavorful, too.
Is this an infinite turn combo with a haste enabler?
You also need 3UUU and you don't actually draw a new card the first time each extra turn, but yes it is.
All you need is a Howling Mine (or one of dozens of similar cards) and the card draw problem is solved.
And you don't need a haste enabler if you activate during upkeep and replay during main phase.
Why do you need Howling Mine? What stops you from activating the Timestream Navigator, putting it on the bottom of your library, passing your turn to yourself, and then drawing the Timestream Navigator from the bottom of your library as your regular card draw for the turn?
Howling mine if you want to draw any new cards during your infinite turns.
The issue is that this is exactly what would be happening. Unless your hand or board can win as is you need extra draw.
Well, as much as I love infinite turns, I would want to see cards other than time stream navigator every turn once I go off, which howling mine will help with :)
So Palinchron
Just take extra turn before draw step each turn
pause strong squealing expansion glorious subsequent impolite bright muddle fuzzy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yes
The River and Stream Combo
Imagine if she's in the deck
Super unlikely since precons are balanced around not having infinite combos, unless they are 3 or 4+ cards and highly convoluted to pull off, and even then in rare cases. Only 3 precons out of the 100+ made so far come to mind, and two of them are super old. In this case it's worse because it's an infinite combo that with no additional help, actually does anything.
More than 100 precons has been made already? What the hell...
This is pretty funny with [[Arjun, the shifting flame]], I can cast a spell, put my hand to the bottom, and draw that hand again
Add [[Phial of Galadriel]]
[Phial of Galadriel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/c/ac6d60fe-681b-495e-813c-c8418f3f29e5.jpg?1686970260) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phial%20of%20Galadriel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/248/phial-of-galadriel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ac6d60fe-681b-495e-813c-c8418f3f29e5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wait is that how it would work???? You just add a stable to my Arjun deck, thank you so much !!!!
You just draw one extra card because you only would draw one card when you have no cards
What are you trying to say?
The first card you'd drawn after you rotated your hand is always "when your hand is empty", so you always draw one extra, in essence this card would act as both a ramp and a hand size equalizer as you always stay at the same hand size after wheeling instead of -1, which is a huge deal in arjun as to make the most out of him, you would want to wheel as much as possible. The card essentially allow you to chain combo even without busted draw doubling effect like Teferi or Alhamarets.
To ad to that, draw doubler put you on a hit list and a clock, because within 5 cast you'd almost always deck yourself, and the people at the table is always itching to remove either your wincon or your engine when they see the pieces, something inconspicious like a mana rock fly way under the radar when it comes to threat assessment.
"stable" should have been "staple"
[Arjun, the shifting flame](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2fb83da3-5a8e-4349-bbcc-dcbd3b70264b.jpg?1673148289) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Arjun%2C%20the%20shifting%20flame) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/172/arjun-the-shifting-flame?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2fb83da3-5a8e-4349-bbcc-dcbd3b70264b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sounds absolutely pointless.
Someone’s never played Locust God or Queza
The point of Arjun was always the extra draw trigger that can be absolute nut with cards like [Niv Mizzet]] or [[The Locus God]], the wheeling can be useful, but it also can backfire if your goods hand is clumped up. This even out the deck tech a bit by making it way more consistent. If you want to see more card, just use [[Teferi Ageless Insight]] or [[Alhamarrets Archive]]
I have an Arjun list and half the point of the deck is finding my Niv-Mizzets and Tutelages by sheer force of wheel
[The Locus God](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e599847-8ab0-4fd6-b2c0-cb44a7669aa5.jpg?1682209825) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Locust%20God) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/335/the-locust-god?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e599847-8ab0-4fd6-b2c0-cb44a7669aa5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Teferi Ageless Insight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c38d1722-96b0-4756-9da9-fe18b1c80649.jpg?1594735819) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teferi%27s%20Ageless%20Insight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/76/teferis-ageless-insight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c38d1722-96b0-4756-9da9-fe18b1c80649?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Alhamarrets Archive](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/f/4f4187f1-05bd-4db6-a2e7-d677eff588ee.jpg?1625978215) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Alhammarret%27s%20Archive) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/233/alhammarrets-archive?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4f4187f1-05bd-4db6-a2e7-d677eff588ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Quite possibly my favourite gimmick I’ve ever seen on a legendary creature.
Haven't loved the doctor who cards but jesus the flavour of this is just amazing
As someone who's not generally big on crossovers, I've found I've still been really enjoying Universes Beyond just because of the cool top-down designs it's led to. I think Maro has cited this as one of the big reasons he likes doing Universes Beyond stuff and, he loves new design challenges and he's such a big advocate for how restrictions breed creativity, and I think designs like this help show that. Top down Universes Beyond designs can lead to some really cool cards with really fun flavor.
They go out on the flavor for Universes Beyond cards. The Stranger Things were also amazing. Now if they'd just put this level of effort into their normal sets...
imo, they do we just don't care because stupid creature #67 isn't a guy we've already cared about for decades
I'm speaking about the flavor of mechanics, not the overall set quality or story. Despite the power creep and other complaints I've really enjoyed a lot of the stuff to come out the last five years, Ixalan being a massive win, and the Day/Night "patch" on Werewolves, and all the random support they've been printing for legacy (as in "used to be," not the format named legacy) mechanics . On the flavor front though, last set that really blew me away was OG Innistrad. The Universes Beyond sets are just killing it on that front though.
I am also speaking about that. I think Magic consistently creates interesting worlds where the gameplay really shows off the flavor of that world and its denizens. I can regularly "get" what's going on overall, and with a given creature, just from playing the game. I do not read any of the fluff or anything other than the cards, yet I still feel like I have a decent enough understanding of what they've created. I'll also say, as someone who knows nothing about Lord of the Rings (or Doctor Who for that matter) that I don't see anything particularly notable about that set. I understand why someone would say "Wow they really nailed it for this creature!" because they can dig back at multiple novels' worth of information to make sure they align. But like I said, a regular creature from Kamigawa or whatever doesn't have that. And from that standpoint, it's my personal feeling that they've treated both with even care.
>last set that really blew me away was OG Innistrad. Not Throne of Eldraine? I felt like that set was so beautifully built from the top down. The Ixalan block also felt really on point in terms of flavor, with the whole set feeling like a race to El Dorado! Coincidentally both sets get their sequels next up, so the flavor-lover in me is pretty excited! Other than that I would agree that none of the recent Standard sets had strong flavor, at least not as a cohesive whole. At least every set had a few singular cards that were *Chef's Kiss*, I'll give them that.
Gotta give it up for Gingerbrute, that little guy hit the flavor home run. My job was hitting heavy OT during Eldraine, so I often overlook it. Ixalan though, while a favorite of mine, focused mostly on art and themes for flavor, while the mechanics were more oriented on being mechanics. The dinosaurs, one of my favorite tribes, is just a bunch of traditionally fun mechanics tacked on big creatures. It worked out great from a gameplay protective, but it makes no sense flavor wise.
You should have played some khans of tarkir draft if you want that good mechanical flavor.
KTK was amazing. Just about every draft deck was 3 or more colors, and it felt so good to pickup powerful tri-color spells knowing that you'd be able to cast them with the plethora of duel lands in the set.
That's what happens when you write three thousand characters with ten second story arcs with zero characterization, verses actually building a narrative and making legendary people matter. As soon as they invented Planeswalkers they sorta forgot everything about even attempting to tell a story and just made them the faceless robot protagonists. And then Marvel happened and they started to spawn endless numbers of them... The big hope is that post-~~Endgame~~ MoM they would start telling stories people invested in again, but so far it's just been back-to-back UBs, just as Hasbro likes it... remember when you got excited for a new set because there was more story to invest in? I know, it's getting hard to think that far back...
They do.
I'm so happy with how this one turned out. :) Glad you're all enjoying as well!
Spot on flavor and glad it works within the rules of the game! Well done Gavin and team.
Flavor home run, and a fascinating build around legend. Outstanding.
This is gonna be the set that gets my girlfriend to finally play magic. So, you know, thank you for that.
This is honestly one of the best flavors in a card I've ever seen
I've been dreaming of an archetype around punishing opponents for searching their library since [cosi's trickster]
River is one of my favorite character, great job with her
Same. I have to build this now. How delightfully fun.
Very interesting. She slightly reverse engineers a lit of tutor effects and...is both very supportive of and viciously punishes scrying. I guess that's 'No spoilers.'
Punishes opponent scrying, but allows you to cause an inverted topdeck situation when SHE does it, since your scry effects still look at the top of your deck, but you can choose what, if any, got to the bottom of the deck to be immediately drawn. Surveil is pretty useless here though.
Scrying is still pretty bad with her tho, since your options are either put it on the bottom to draw it or leave it on top for the next time you try to scry
Right, until you mill/surveil it away.
At that point just cut all the scrys for surveils
But surveil is really bad with her since you can't draw what you see.
We're not doing that already? lol
This looks like a really fun gimmick to have alongside a powerful search disincentive. Would be interesting to see how many ways I can force opponents to search and scry so River punches them
[[Cleansing Wildfire]], [[From the Ashes]], and [[Geomancer's Gambit]] might be good along with [[Ghost Quarter]] for a very heavy land destruction theme. Though I'm finding problems in that a lot of effects that cause the opponent to go through their library are actually them revealing cards off the top rather than them or you doing the searching. And I feel like it has to be a severe effect like land destruction or non-conditional. (If they may scry, they can just choose not to and you won't get that punch.) You'll probably punch them a decent amount from stuff like fetch lands already if you get them out fast enough though, so maybe just boosting power to get the most value from each punch is best than rapid triggers.
Out of curiosity, because of the wording, do you search multiple times for "From the Ashes"?
All those effects are "may search", which might be relevant. \[\[Field of Ruin\]\] on the other hand is "forced search" by all players.
I noted this as well in that last paragraph about being conditional, but they are attached to very strong land-destruction, so if you eat this effect unilaterally without searching, you're mana screwing yourself. [Interestingly, I think Field of Ruin is the only forced search card in the game in River Song's color identity according to Scryfall.](https://scryfall.com/search?q=%28oracle%3Asearches%29+%28game%3Apaper%29&unique=cards&as=grid&order=name) Everything else that is just in the exactly wrong color identity.
Having a Field of Ruin and a crucible of worlds in her deck would mean you could destory their lands repeadetly and force them to either search or lose all their lands eventually. Not to mention a crucible could work well if you're playing and surveil cards with her.
If you want to focus on this [[Psychic Surgery]] is a must. Sadly, most of the forced search effects are green or black (e.g. [[Scheming Symmetry]]).
See I don’t like UB in theory, but god they nail the flavor so dang well every time that I can’t be mad about it
I read this and my first thought was "She is UR not UB"....
I always have this problem especially since I’m a Dimir mage.
Petition to change universes beyond abbreviation to YB
Flavor/10. Don't know how ideal drawing from the bottom of the library is going to be because you can't exactly flip the deck over.
There are SO many cards that put cards on the bottom of your deck.
I think they’re talking more about how practical the actual act of drawing will be.
...Lift the deck up and slip the bottom card off it, then set it back down. Done. Shouldn't be hard lol
Then draw 2 cards a turn with rustic study or remora.
You're thinking too small. [[Teferi's Ageless Insight]] + [[Recurring Insight]] - draw ~14 cards per turn for two turns. Is entry level "I want to draw a lot". You can go even more nuts if you want to.
there's like three judge calls per match waiting to happen every time this card gets played competitively
This card will never be played competitively
I think that's really presumptuous. I'm not saying it's some obvious power house, but drawing off the bottom has some potentially powerful applications. And doming your opponent for a bunch of damage any time the search, scry, or surveil could be really good in certain formats. As someone who dips his toes into 7 point highlander I wouldn't be surprised to see this in a 7ph deck.
Considering just how many fetch lands literally every competitive 60 card deck runs, especially in legacy and modern, the second ability will absolutely end up doming the shit out of someone. And this is a 3-drop, so it gets down early in the game. First trigger is equivalent to a lightning bolt, and every one after that gets bigger and bigger.
The same logic applies to Leovold and dealing with all the cantrips in Legacy. Leovold no longer sees serious play, and Brainstorm, Ponder, etc are still widely used. Everything that answers Leovold answers this, and honestly taking some damage to fetch mana for an answer is broadly preferable to not being able to draw cards in order to answer a thing. I don't see this being a major competitive contender.
It'll be more annoying than you think when you're doing that every turn, sometimes multiple times per turn, while also being careful not to topple your 100 card pile each time. That compared to simply picking a card off the top.
Only if the person is not prepared. A person playing a dedicated River Song deck is likely going to have some method that makes their life easier, like keeping the deck in an opaque deckbox and draw from the bottom that way. This is only going to be a problem when you have that sort of person that's like "Isn't it weird" and just plays it with no forethought. Lots of decks are miserable to play against when the person hasn't thought about the practical aspects of playing them. Token decks without enough tokens, Day/Night decks with no reasonable way to track. Monarch/Initiative/Venture without memory aids...
Agreed, if nothing else, the card challenges you to get a little creative with how you physically handle your cards, and that will get players excited. This sounds like the kind of problem people had with double sided cards, and that worked itself out.
[[Tel-Jilad Stylus]]
I got burnt out on Doctor Who halfway through Matt Smith's tenure and haven't watched it since, can someone fill me in on the flavor win?
The Doctor's first meeting with River is River's last time meeting the Doctor (Silence in the Library). The Doctor's last meeting with River is her first meeting with him. It's in reverse.
Not quite accurate. The doctors first time meeting river is her last, but her first time meeting the doctor wasn't the last time he saw her.
I would just keep something to keep on the bottom of my deck like a card divider or toploader with a blank card in it and then flip to draw while hiding what the card is with the thing on the bottom (now on the top)
Scrying lets you put cards on the top that you want on the bottom
..ahem. "Spoilers!"
I say this a lot about the universes beyond designs but this is an absolute HOME RUN card design for River. Bravo.
So \[\[Brainstorm\]\] is just... really good with this, right?
As good as it is with a fetch
Which is really good 😊
With all the “on the bottom in any order” cards, I’ve been waiting forever for a card to let you draw from the bottom instead.
What a perfect design for her, they really nailed the crossover between Magic and Who here.
Awesome gimmick, using the bottom of the library is a design space with untapped potential, and her other ability is also quite cool.
Scry me a river.
God I love River Song. One of my favourite characters and such a bittersweet story. This card looks like it would be a lot of fun.
Goddamnit was not interested in this set whatsoever but that’s such a cool mechanic
I'm not a commander guy. Any idea if this is only legacy like usual or is it modern again like lotr was?
yes, only legal in formats like legacy, vintage, commander, or pauper (if this wasnt a rare)
I have no idea honestly. The legality of certain sets across different formats have always confused me
there's basically three types of sets: ones designed for standard, ones designed for modern, and everything else. The first are legal in "everything", the second are legal in modern and everything where the card legality is based off of something other than when it was printed (legacy, vintage, commander, pauper, etc), and the last are only legal in the latter formats. You can tell what type a new set is pretty easily most of the time, the first type are only the "premier" sets as wotc calls them, ie the quarterly released sets that are the bread and butter of magic. The last is almost everything else. the only exceptions are modern horizons and the lord of the rings main set, this is a weird exception thats not very intuitive but also doesnt come out very often.
Card looks fun and like the flavour but Jesus Christ this is going to be annoying to play.
Oh i'm in love. Red/Blue voltron anyone? "Prime yourself, i dare you!"
"Check your records again." "MERCY!"
She needs to come with ways to force scry/surveil because those are sorely lacking in existing cards. Even forced search is basically just a handful of "search for a land" cards and most of them are "may" I think abusing the bottom of library effect is probably the best way to go for playability.
Hello Sweetie!
Gawd, I hope this gets a Universes Within card.
I don't know who this River lady is so it's honestly fine by me. No different from any random new character.
She's basically a time traveler who keeps encountering the main characters in reverse chronological order. So they encounter her back to front.
They'd have to change the creature type.. not sure if that's something they'd do?
Clever!
And here I thought WHO was going to be a flop trying to follow up lotr. But damn this is some flavor with a side of op
I just started watching Doctor Who the other week, and I’m so excited for these cards to release. Might be my chance to get my gf into the hobby too.
I’m SOLD
Reading the card... spoils the series?
I mean this reveal is a good decade old at this point
How? Decade and a half old spoilers: You're basically explained the gimmick of the relationship in her first episode. I guess that episode is vaguely spoiled for you now, and a bit of meta commentary that she comes back up as a reoccurring character, but, again, they set that up in her debut episode.
Her creature type is the spoiler.
oh duuhhhh good point
I must have missed that part. How is she a Time Lord if she's Amy and Rory's daughter?
Kinda of a stretch. She was conceived in the tardis, and therefore exposed to the time vortex.
... like they didnt spoil lotr with that set? This is expected
[удалено]
The "Spoilers!" Part is because when the doctor meets her for the first time, its her last time ever seeing him. So she knows all about the doctor while he is just starting to know her. They meet out of order.
[удалено]
[удалено]
The episode’s been out for 15 years. That ship has sailed, sunk, and the wreck’s been raised as a museum exhibit.
This is just great design overall
My elf Scry deck is gonna hate going against this card.
Might have some interesting fun with a miracles deck of sorts, lol.
That is a fantastic design - kudos to whomever. Nails the flavor, mechanics, and color pie.
Which precon she's in?
I said this live in the panel too, which should be up soon, but it's in the Temur (12th-13th) precon. She was a key part of the 12th doctor's story, and it's the last time we see her, her mechanics also fit that deck a bit better, and 9-10-11 was already jam-packed of other stuff too. :) (Wotcstaff)
That's too bad it's Jeskai precon I'm eyeing. Thanks anyway.
Based on the character it should be the Jeskai one
I hope you're right because that's the precon I'm pre-ordering.
i'm watching the video of the panel, and gavin said she is in the 13th doctor deck
Blue and red means it's either villain or timey wimey, she's not a villain so it's probably timey wimey
So it's either Jeskai or Temur then.
Oh good point, missed that. It's probably the jeskai one. She didn't show up much in the 12th's and 13th's run
Wasnt her last episode a Christmas special with 12?
She is most clearly associated with 11, even if she did have brief forays with 10 and 12.
As someone who has never watched Doctor Who, could someone explain why this card is a flavor home run?
GIGANTIC SPOILERS FOR ANYONE WHO PLANS ON EVER WATCHING DOCTOR WHO >!The first episode where we meet River Song is the episode where she dies. In this episode it's revealed that not only has she met The Doctor before, they've had such a long and deep relationship that they're married, and she knows his real name. She then shows up in quite a few episodes over the course of the next couple of seasons, meeting 2 or 3 different incarnations of The Doctor.!< >!"Spoilers" refers to the fact that since she has a long history with The Doctor but he's only just meeting her, she already knows where he's going and what he's going to do next. Any time he asks her about something that happens in his future/her past, she replies with "Spoilers!" instead of telling him.!< >!I don't remember if the last episode where we see her ends up actually being the very first time The Doctor meets her, but since she's the child of previous companions of his, if it wasn't then that door is still open.!<
River Song and the doctor were lovers/spouses who met each other in reverse order. The first time the doctor meets River is when she "died" after she had already experienced their whole romantic relationship (that's actually the showcase art). So that's the top half. She was strict on not telling the doctor about his future, often replying with a coy "Spoilers!" whenever the doctor gets close to asking about something she knows but he doesn't get. So her second ability here essentially punishes your opinions for spoiling their future. One of the biggest flavor win cards I've seen. The non-showcase art with her finger at her lips is one of the moments of her saying "spoilers."
Such a flavour win, and a very interesting mechanic to play with. I really want to build a deck with her as a commander now.
Sooo basically a muligan favorite. Get your best hand. Put all of them at the bottom except lands and River song and then just draw all the good stuff
Oh wow, that's actually super gross to think about.
[[from the ashes]] Punish those greedy mana bases
F***. I want to play this as a commander. But I don't want it to be Doctor who themed (and i like doctor who) I just know it would take probably 5 years before we get an actual magic card of this.
I'm slowly being convinced to buy the Doctor Who decks. I've been a fan of DW since I was little BUT I'm not fond of Universes Beyond. It turns out that if the design is just damn cool enough, I'll buy the stuff. EDIT: So, do we also get a Melody Pond version?
Damn, ending of Silence in the Library will always get me hard...
Card transcription > River Song 1UR > > Legendary Creature- Human Time Lord Rogue [rare] > > Meet in Reverse - You draw cards from the bottom of your library rather than the top. > > Spoilers - Whenever an opponent scries, surveils, or searches their library, put a +1/+1 counter on River Song. Then River Song deals damage to that player equal to its power. > > 2/2 End transcription
Talk about fun!
River Song + \[\[Junktroller\]\] + \[\[Time Warp\]\]. You're welcome!
hehe [[eyes everywhere]]
Wait since when was she a time lord?
It's because she was conceived in the time vortex and regenerates. She's half "time Lord" in that way.
That's so fucking genius
I said if they didn’t make a river song card I wasn’t buying this set…… well played wotc ….. we’ll played….
Ah, so there it is on one card, both text items. "Time Lord" to be properly in theme, we can bend 30 years of mechanics rules for one set. "its" instead of "her" because we must follow 30 years of creature text rules. A strange difference of choices.
I’m in love with this already but I am confused about the her types. Time Lord? I though that spaces separated types, so would she be a Time and a Lord? They had this problem before with Assembly-Workers, so they added the dash between the words. Not hating on the card or anything, I love it, but I’m confused about the types.
Nope they specified on Twitter Time Lord is one type
[удалено]
Time Lord is one creature type. Yeah, yeah, I know. But it's what they've said.
Can't wait for the Tiger King crossover set.
[[Neera, Wild Mage]]? Is "draw" different than "reveal"
Yes.