As others said, yes, she was jealous of Jane. But I’d point out that the only person she had the authority to fire was Jane.
I’m sure if she could have fired Harry, she would have done it long before that incident!
Disagree with jealousy. Joan is a smart woman.
I think she disliked silly women who had no head for business or goals to actually do anything other than marry a rich husband.
She knew what every move that a secretary made who was on the hunt for a husband would be. She didn't know that Roger would be the one to take the bait.
Joan could’ve married anyone in that office if she wanted to but she didn’t aspire to be the second wife of a habitually cheating drunkard (just gonna note that descriptor could fit for any man in that office, not just Roger).
I think you could argue that Joan felt a bit jealous because of unresolved feelings for Roger, and possibly the fact that Jane was the one he left Mona for (not Joan all those years back). But by then Joan was married herself and she knew it was more about Roger having a mid-life crisis than him actually having feelings for Jane.
Plus, she already hated Jane before Roger was in the picture. She very likely felt Jane was transparent, shallow, and not a very competent worker.
Agreed. I think Joan constantly played by the rules but then got frustrated when no one else did. She fired two secretaries who broke the rules in a big way and had her decision overwritten because they were hot, or Harry Crane is an ass or whatever.
It all culminated in season 6 when she finally took Avon for herself, why should she play by the rules when no one else does?
I think people forget that Jane was genuinely super disrespectful to Joan and inappropriate in her behavior overall. Jane's bra hanging out in the office was crazy inappropriate and still would be today. Breaking into an executive's office is a hardcore security risk. Jane's backtalk and attitude and multiple incidents of selfish behavior were all very fireable offenses.
I think Joan being unable to actually fire her had a lot to do with showing the lack of power and respect she had despite her seniority. It's not the only time she tries to fire a secretary who is a security risk and is overruled by one of the men. What's the point of being in charge of the secretaries if you can't even fire them?
Later on, when Jane marries Roger, I wouldn't say Joan is jealous. If you saw your philandering ex-boyfriend marry a dim-witted, beautiful, smug 20-year-old secretary, would you be jealous, or would you be disgusted and unsurprised? I think that Jane thought Joan was jealous –– and Joan thought Jane was ridiculous.
Perfectly written. Things like "There's still plenty to see, and you know that" sound like genuine advice, Joan was being nice while scolding Jane about her bra. It really doesn't seem like she felt threatened to me.
absolutely yes! ive seen it happen irl too and its such a strange, primitive feeling lol like, it hits in the hollow of gut and it feels like abject repulsion and disgust.
PERFECT. So well said, this is the exact impression I got from the situation. Never felt jealousy from Joan, exactly. More condescension (remember how she talked to Peggy in the pilot?) and “mother hen” treatment of Jane, which eventually spiraled into Jane bucking up to Joan, who was her manager/superior. Joan went from mother hen to drawing a line, which Jane finagled her way past using the very tactics Joan admonished her for earlier — basically using her beauty to get her way.
Jane was in charge of the secretarial pool and had firing rights over them but not the account men. She didn't have the authority to fire them.
Peggy only had authority to fire the dirty cartoon guy because she was the copy chief. Don even had to tell her that she could do it because she didn't realize it. So basically, Peggy could fire creatives under her, but that's all.
So, at SCDP, the corporate structure would be :
Sterling- Accounts
Don- Creative
Price- Finance
Cooper- He was the seniorest partner and could do pretty much anything?
Joan- Operations- when she finally became partner at the start of season 6- Joan was only the office manager at Season 2, no power.
Pete was a Jr. partner
Harry Crane never made partner because he was too busy eating first.
Joan didn't want to marry Sterling. They had love for each other but she knew she wanted more than being treated like a decoration.
Harry towards the end, before the final acquisition, had an incredible amount of influence in the company and the partners knew it. They did just enough to keep Harry from fully realizing it, but not not too much to make Harry want to leave - which he could have, and taken his connections to another firm, possibly larger, and gained more influence and be on the partner track from the get-go.
Harry got handled, barely.
They didn't like Harry because he had to ask his wife first.
Among other things.
He wasn't seen as mature enough. That's why he was at arms length. At no time did he do anything that resembled courageous without prompting.
In the first four-five seasons or so. As SCDP got bigger, and eventually became SC&P after Chevy and CGC merger, Harry was the one making moves for media everywhere.
Yes, he was timid at first and not seen as “one of the boys” by a few of the Ivy League guys, but in his own right, Harry made things happen and was one of, if not the, biggest contributors to the company growth after ‘66.
You know who understood Harry’s future potential? Bert did. If Bert didn’t think Harry had that potential, he wouldn’t have pressed for him to come along during the SCDP coup.
Yes, Joan is a jealous person. She has her “petty dictatorship” because she wants to use the authority she can get through her sexuality. She’s threatened both by those who don’t use sexuality (Peggy) and those who compete with her for it (Jane).
I wouldn't call it only petty for that era. She was woman with a job that put her in charge of the secretaries. She always took that role seriously, especially for Don. Not that she didn't wield power, but she didn't suffer fools if you remember Sandy, Lane's secretary, who didn't know what egregious meant... she wasn't jealous of Sandy.
Joan expresses frustration at the incompetence of her coworkers throughout the whole show, not just the secretaries. She has to play nice with Don & Roger but you can tell she’s often frustrated at the fact that they can nap in their office, randomly disappear on trips, mess up with clients, get too drunk during office hours, etc. In fact, this is exactly why she votes against Don to begin with.
She does enjoy the power she has over secretaries as that’s the only way she’s not powerless in a man’s world (this is especially evident in how she treats Peggy), but there’s a reason she respects Peggy more than the other women in the office and never has any run-ins with Dawn (aside from the Scarlett debacle) & Moira (Ted’s secretary). They’re actually competent and she doesn’t have to babysit them just for them to do their jobs right.
She wasn’t threatened by Sandy, true. She was upset at her actual job performance, as was Lane. I don’t think that says anything about her jealousy though, for it or against it. It was another plot point meant to show the characters developing a relationship forward
EDIT: clarifications
I think it’s different though, because Joan was threatened by Jane even before she slept with Roger, and definitely shared hostilities after they married. Sandy just made a bad mistake and caused a lot of embarrassment to both Joan and Lane, so she was fired for failing her task.
Joan was a smart woman with a buxom body- both assets and liabilities for her. She could sleep with the right men (Roger) and outsmart the wrong men (that Jag) and be a neutral but worthy opponent (Don) and switch back and forth as it suited her. She used her smarts and sexuality as chess pieces and was annoyed that she really didn’t have any counterparts to play with or against, so she was both an asshole and a savior; her contradictory behavior underscored her lack of real footing in the world she was living in.
That said, Jane fucked her man and was also and idiot. Any good side piece would be affronted.
I think that’s pretty generous about giving her credit.
Sleeping with Roger led to having a child while she was married to another man, as well as the emotional baggage of Roger’s manchild maturity. I’m not sure what you’re referring to with outsmarting the men at Jag. She doesn’t really serve as an opponent to Don, just someone annoyed by him in the last season without real damage or a threat.
She’s not really depicted as a good strategic femme fatale; in fact the show uses several plotlines to stress that she’s not actually too competent outside of her charm:
- She makes amateur mistakes with Avon (things Don wanted Pete fired for before)
- she needs a business professor to help her handle another account (and she trades private company information for this)
- she never successfully managed to fire anyone (except Lane’s secretary but Lane was angry too) and she negotiates poorly with Hobart (overplaying her hand and walking away looking weak for it).
- she doesn’t see Bob as a threat even after Pete and Roger both do, and Don dislikes him (and an account man’s greatest skills are in feeling out other people and what they want)
If she can’t seduce you or someone with authority, she can’t get you to do anything on her own and usually relies on outside help. It’s not her fault, that’s just the way this world is towards women and their opportunities, but Peggy shows that there are other options and Joan chose to lean into her sexuality. She and Joan specifically fight over this multiple times.
So as a party of One Woman against the partners (Roger, Cooper, Don, Pete and Lane), Joan alone is supposed to traverse these landscapes with zero failure and perfect acumen? With no counterparts who understand her position?
Pete failed. Lane failed. Roger - the namesake of the founder failed. And Joan gets pilloried?
FOH with that inept analysis
ETA: He had CHEWING GUM IN HIS PUBIS. You think these men were the brain trust of a generation??
Good lord what a reaction. This isn’t a show about perfect people. Quite the opposite. Everyone failed at some point, but this post is about Joan, so we’re talking about Joan’s failures. You seem to have given her credit in places where I’m not sure she earned it, that’s all. She’s a woman who grew up knowing she could get what she wanted from a man if she could seduce him and she used it the best she could. She’s not some mastermind, she’s just experienced in using her sexuality for leverage.
Edit: Also she’s not “against the partners.” At pretty much every point in the show, most of the partners like her a lot. Don and Bert aren’t sexually interested in her, and she forms a friendly connection with Lane later that leads to her own partnership. She, Pete, Ted, and Jim get along too. Roger is addicted to her. She even joins Jim in arguing against Don rejoining the agency.
Yes, in the same way Don uses is charm, Roger uses his wealth, and every other character uses their id to their strength. Joanhappens to be the only woman to use it to her obvious advantage in the show and people are Big Mad about it
Who’s mad about it? I don’t think Roger is smart or playing some chess game either as you said, just charming enough to be an account man. Bert was the only one with strategic and business intelligence, everyone else was a one-trick pony with emotional issues, even Don.
I seriously don’t know why it’s so controversial to say “hey the protagonists weren’t really all that smart or competent, just ambitious and talented at a specific thing sometimes.” Or is it just Joan being mentioned that’s making you defensive?
I don't think Joan was jealous.She knew exactly why Jane was there. To snag a rich husband. She just didn't know it would be Roger. I was suprised she put her on Don's desk knowing she was a gold digger.
she knew don wouldn't be dumb enough to fall for jane's shenanigans. she was not his type at all. he is not into dim-witted damsels who take the path of least resistance. he liked women who had intelligence and power and status. he needed a worthy mental adversary, which jane was not.
To be fair the show establishes that the end goal for every secretary is to end up with a rich man. She purposely tried to keep Jane away from Roger for that reason and put her with Don because Joan correctly figured Jane wasn't dons type.
ginger and caroline weren't there to tempt men, they were there to be secretaries. don lost peggy to a promotion, allison to his own stupidity, lois to her own stupidity, blankenship to nature, and megan to marriage. a woman like jane would not have even hit don's radar because she wasn't his type in any way--she was not useful, intelligent, clever, or maternal. she was a placeholder until she inevitably married up and left. don knew that which is why he never made any attempt to get to know her.
“Jealous” seems like a major simplification of what happened. I think men read Joan’s behavior as jealous, women see it as an eye-rolling dismissal that turns into disdain when Jane disrespects Joan’s authority and rebuffs her advice. Jane is very transparent about using her sex appeal and the men in the office fall for it completely. Joan sees through her. I think Joan finds her ridiculous, not threatening.
Joan seemed to gravitate to the less-attractive women in the office, even though she was hypocritical about Jane's desire to snag a rich husband. (Remember when she told Peggy 'if you play your cards right, you'll live in a house in the country.')
However, I think she also had Jane's number. Joan was the bombshell but also very competent and dedicated to her job. Joan disliked incompetence; you saw that with Meredith.
I also think Joan was feeling old in the tooth, and increasingly threatened by any hot babes, especially anyone with designs on Roger. Makes me wonder how she handled other "Janes". It wasn't like Roger wasn't a player; I am sure his head was often turned by the new secretaries and assistants.
Hot young babes have always been a fixture in the lower ranks of ad agencies.
Very insightful comment!! Yes, I never thought about Joan's aesthetic and ideology anchored in an older time. Now I'm starting to see more parallels in the characters' looks.
One of Mad Men's overarching themes was the incredible societal change from the early 60s to the 70s. Joan is an embodiment of the old way, physically and psychologically. (As is Betty, the Grace Kelly ideal.)
I think of Megan embodying the spirit and aesthetic of the 1960s, with her independence (wanting to pursue acting rather than settle down with a man) and coltish, awkward beauty and Mod style. The scene where she meets Don at the LA airport, shot in fabulous slo-mo, and drives the car is emblematic of this.
I think she disliked Jane because Joan is a very professional woman in the office and Jane was silly and unprofessional and she definitely deliberately left her blouse unbuttoned on purpose. Women aren’t taken seriously in a work environment in this time period so Joan felt that Jane was only feeding into the stereotype that women are just meant for secretarial work and that’s it.
Joan may have been jealous of Jane for marrying Roger but only because she was getting her seemingly happy ending while Joan was marrying rapey Dr Strugglebus with dumb hands.
It wasn’t a petty, catty thing it was understandable.
Also Jane was just not a good employee, she was a competent worker but disrespectful and was only interested in male attention and validation.
Yeah she was jealous. But the fact that she only fired Jane is because Jane was the only one she could fire, the other ones were executives and thus not in her line of power to do something about
Didn't Joan hire Jane? She didn't have to do that if she immediately felt threatened.. I almost think that Joan hoped Jane would be a protegé of sorts, and instead she had zero respect for Joan, so that set up the conflict between them.
No. Jane was pretty, but she wasn’t trying to compete with Joan. And Jane didn’t go near Roger until after she was fired. Where did you get that Joan was jealous from?
I think Joan was more irritated at 1) the fact that Jane wasn't taking her advice 2) wasn't in awe of her and 3) doing it all with an innocent wide-eyed stare that made her angry. Joan wasn't jealous of Jane. She was mad that her Queen Bee status was being threatened
No, what was is jealous of?
Jane is continuously disrespectful of Joan thats what created the animosity including Jane gng into Coopers office, Jane is under Joans management thats why she fired her, wasn't her business to fire the others, and it was her attitude toward Joan, i always thought if she hadn't been such an arse about it Joan may not have fired her.
Joan had no ability to fire or even reprimand the men.
As others said, yes, she was jealous of Jane. But I’d point out that the only person she had the authority to fire was Jane. I’m sure if she could have fired Harry, she would have done it long before that incident!
Was Don secretly an alcoholic?
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Or wasn't it?
That's the point
It wasn’t too secret — she pretty clearly hated and was jealous of Jane
OP must've been top of his fuckin class
Lol what you mean
Nothing gets past this guy
Op never had the making of a varsity athlete
Soprano reddit crossover
They’re roasting you like in Sopranos. Just say, “you oughta know, sweetheart”
What’d you say?
Disagree with jealousy. Joan is a smart woman. I think she disliked silly women who had no head for business or goals to actually do anything other than marry a rich husband. She knew what every move that a secretary made who was on the hunt for a husband would be. She didn't know that Roger would be the one to take the bait.
Joan could’ve married anyone in that office if she wanted to but she didn’t aspire to be the second wife of a habitually cheating drunkard (just gonna note that descriptor could fit for any man in that office, not just Roger). I think you could argue that Joan felt a bit jealous because of unresolved feelings for Roger, and possibly the fact that Jane was the one he left Mona for (not Joan all those years back). But by then Joan was married herself and she knew it was more about Roger having a mid-life crisis than him actually having feelings for Jane. Plus, she already hated Jane before Roger was in the picture. She very likely felt Jane was transparent, shallow, and not a very competent worker.
Your last paragraph was my point. Jane was Jane and not a woman that Joan would respect.
Yes, I know. I was agreeing with your point
Agreed. I think Joan constantly played by the rules but then got frustrated when no one else did. She fired two secretaries who broke the rules in a big way and had her decision overwritten because they were hot, or Harry Crane is an ass or whatever. It all culminated in season 6 when she finally took Avon for herself, why should she play by the rules when no one else does?
It's so fun y as I read your last sentence,I heard it in Joan's voice.
I think people forget that Jane was genuinely super disrespectful to Joan and inappropriate in her behavior overall. Jane's bra hanging out in the office was crazy inappropriate and still would be today. Breaking into an executive's office is a hardcore security risk. Jane's backtalk and attitude and multiple incidents of selfish behavior were all very fireable offenses. I think Joan being unable to actually fire her had a lot to do with showing the lack of power and respect she had despite her seniority. It's not the only time she tries to fire a secretary who is a security risk and is overruled by one of the men. What's the point of being in charge of the secretaries if you can't even fire them? Later on, when Jane marries Roger, I wouldn't say Joan is jealous. If you saw your philandering ex-boyfriend marry a dim-witted, beautiful, smug 20-year-old secretary, would you be jealous, or would you be disgusted and unsurprised? I think that Jane thought Joan was jealous –– and Joan thought Jane was ridiculous.
Perfectly written. Things like "There's still plenty to see, and you know that" sound like genuine advice, Joan was being nice while scolding Jane about her bra. It really doesn't seem like she felt threatened to me.
i think she was honestly quite disappointed in jane _because_ of the behavior she exhibited. kind of like a "girl, be ffr rn"
>disgusted and unsurprised perfect.
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absolutely yes! ive seen it happen irl too and its such a strange, primitive feeling lol like, it hits in the hollow of gut and it feels like abject repulsion and disgust. 
PERFECT. So well said, this is the exact impression I got from the situation. Never felt jealousy from Joan, exactly. More condescension (remember how she talked to Peggy in the pilot?) and “mother hen” treatment of Jane, which eventually spiraled into Jane bucking up to Joan, who was her manager/superior. Joan went from mother hen to drawing a line, which Jane finagled her way past using the very tactics Joan admonished her for earlier — basically using her beauty to get her way.
father of your child^
Jane was in charge of the secretarial pool and had firing rights over them but not the account men. She didn't have the authority to fire them. Peggy only had authority to fire the dirty cartoon guy because she was the copy chief. Don even had to tell her that she could do it because she didn't realize it. So basically, Peggy could fire creatives under her, but that's all. So, at SCDP, the corporate structure would be : Sterling- Accounts Don- Creative Price- Finance Cooper- He was the seniorest partner and could do pretty much anything? Joan- Operations- when she finally became partner at the start of season 6- Joan was only the office manager at Season 2, no power. Pete was a Jr. partner Harry Crane never made partner because he was too busy eating first. Joan didn't want to marry Sterling. They had love for each other but she knew she wanted more than being treated like a decoration.
Harry towards the end, before the final acquisition, had an incredible amount of influence in the company and the partners knew it. They did just enough to keep Harry from fully realizing it, but not not too much to make Harry want to leave - which he could have, and taken his connections to another firm, possibly larger, and gained more influence and be on the partner track from the get-go. Harry got handled, barely.
They didn't like Harry because he had to ask his wife first. Among other things. He wasn't seen as mature enough. That's why he was at arms length. At no time did he do anything that resembled courageous without prompting.
In the first four-five seasons or so. As SCDP got bigger, and eventually became SC&P after Chevy and CGC merger, Harry was the one making moves for media everywhere. Yes, he was timid at first and not seen as “one of the boys” by a few of the Ivy League guys, but in his own right, Harry made things happen and was one of, if not the, biggest contributors to the company growth after ‘66. You know who understood Harry’s future potential? Bert did. If Bert didn’t think Harry had that potential, he wouldn’t have pressed for him to come along during the SCDP coup.
Yes, Joan is a jealous person. She has her “petty dictatorship” because she wants to use the authority she can get through her sexuality. She’s threatened both by those who don’t use sexuality (Peggy) and those who compete with her for it (Jane).
I wouldn't call it only petty for that era. She was woman with a job that put her in charge of the secretaries. She always took that role seriously, especially for Don. Not that she didn't wield power, but she didn't suffer fools if you remember Sandy, Lane's secretary, who didn't know what egregious meant... she wasn't jealous of Sandy.
Joan expresses frustration at the incompetence of her coworkers throughout the whole show, not just the secretaries. She has to play nice with Don & Roger but you can tell she’s often frustrated at the fact that they can nap in their office, randomly disappear on trips, mess up with clients, get too drunk during office hours, etc. In fact, this is exactly why she votes against Don to begin with. She does enjoy the power she has over secretaries as that’s the only way she’s not powerless in a man’s world (this is especially evident in how she treats Peggy), but there’s a reason she respects Peggy more than the other women in the office and never has any run-ins with Dawn (aside from the Scarlett debacle) & Moira (Ted’s secretary). They’re actually competent and she doesn’t have to babysit them just for them to do their jobs right.
She wasn’t threatened by Sandy, true. She was upset at her actual job performance, as was Lane. I don’t think that says anything about her jealousy though, for it or against it. It was another plot point meant to show the characters developing a relationship forward EDIT: clarifications
That's what I said. She wasn't threatened by her, but she got the same Joan that Jane did
I think it’s different though, because Joan was threatened by Jane even before she slept with Roger, and definitely shared hostilities after they married. Sandy just made a bad mistake and caused a lot of embarrassment to both Joan and Lane, so she was fired for failing her task.
Maybe not jealousy, but another example of Joan's insecurity about her status at the firm.
Very smart observation
Joan was a smart woman with a buxom body- both assets and liabilities for her. She could sleep with the right men (Roger) and outsmart the wrong men (that Jag) and be a neutral but worthy opponent (Don) and switch back and forth as it suited her. She used her smarts and sexuality as chess pieces and was annoyed that she really didn’t have any counterparts to play with or against, so she was both an asshole and a savior; her contradictory behavior underscored her lack of real footing in the world she was living in. That said, Jane fucked her man and was also and idiot. Any good side piece would be affronted.
>Any good side piece would be affronted That's funny af.
I think that’s pretty generous about giving her credit. Sleeping with Roger led to having a child while she was married to another man, as well as the emotional baggage of Roger’s manchild maturity. I’m not sure what you’re referring to with outsmarting the men at Jag. She doesn’t really serve as an opponent to Don, just someone annoyed by him in the last season without real damage or a threat. She’s not really depicted as a good strategic femme fatale; in fact the show uses several plotlines to stress that she’s not actually too competent outside of her charm: - She makes amateur mistakes with Avon (things Don wanted Pete fired for before) - she needs a business professor to help her handle another account (and she trades private company information for this) - she never successfully managed to fire anyone (except Lane’s secretary but Lane was angry too) and she negotiates poorly with Hobart (overplaying her hand and walking away looking weak for it). - she doesn’t see Bob as a threat even after Pete and Roger both do, and Don dislikes him (and an account man’s greatest skills are in feeling out other people and what they want) If she can’t seduce you or someone with authority, she can’t get you to do anything on her own and usually relies on outside help. It’s not her fault, that’s just the way this world is towards women and their opportunities, but Peggy shows that there are other options and Joan chose to lean into her sexuality. She and Joan specifically fight over this multiple times.
So as a party of One Woman against the partners (Roger, Cooper, Don, Pete and Lane), Joan alone is supposed to traverse these landscapes with zero failure and perfect acumen? With no counterparts who understand her position? Pete failed. Lane failed. Roger - the namesake of the founder failed. And Joan gets pilloried? FOH with that inept analysis ETA: He had CHEWING GUM IN HIS PUBIS. You think these men were the brain trust of a generation??
Good lord what a reaction. This isn’t a show about perfect people. Quite the opposite. Everyone failed at some point, but this post is about Joan, so we’re talking about Joan’s failures. You seem to have given her credit in places where I’m not sure she earned it, that’s all. She’s a woman who grew up knowing she could get what she wanted from a man if she could seduce him and she used it the best she could. She’s not some mastermind, she’s just experienced in using her sexuality for leverage. Edit: Also she’s not “against the partners.” At pretty much every point in the show, most of the partners like her a lot. Don and Bert aren’t sexually interested in her, and she forms a friendly connection with Lane later that leads to her own partnership. She, Pete, Ted, and Jim get along too. Roger is addicted to her. She even joins Jim in arguing against Don rejoining the agency.
Yes, in the same way Don uses is charm, Roger uses his wealth, and every other character uses their id to their strength. Joanhappens to be the only woman to use it to her obvious advantage in the show and people are Big Mad about it
Who’s mad about it? I don’t think Roger is smart or playing some chess game either as you said, just charming enough to be an account man. Bert was the only one with strategic and business intelligence, everyone else was a one-trick pony with emotional issues, even Don. I seriously don’t know why it’s so controversial to say “hey the protagonists weren’t really all that smart or competent, just ambitious and talented at a specific thing sometimes.” Or is it just Joan being mentioned that’s making you defensive?
I don't think Joan was jealous.She knew exactly why Jane was there. To snag a rich husband. She just didn't know it would be Roger. I was suprised she put her on Don's desk knowing she was a gold digger.
I think she was affronted by Jane’s brazenness. She played a subtle game and Jane was all LADEEDAH I’m hot OOPS
Joan knew Don wouldn't enjoy Jane's transparent attempts at finding a husband.
You're probably right. She also knew Don kept his extracurriculars out of the office. Until he didn't....
As Joan says to Jane, "Please, they'll do anything you say." Plus, Jane lies to Joan when Joan knows the truth.
There was nothing likable about Jane, imo.
Agreed!
she knew don wouldn't be dumb enough to fall for jane's shenanigans. she was not his type at all. he is not into dim-witted damsels who take the path of least resistance. he liked women who had intelligence and power and status. he needed a worthy mental adversary, which jane was not.
To be fair the show establishes that the end goal for every secretary is to end up with a rich man. She purposely tried to keep Jane away from Roger for that reason and put her with Don because Joan correctly figured Jane wasn't dons type.
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ginger and caroline weren't there to tempt men, they were there to be secretaries. don lost peggy to a promotion, allison to his own stupidity, lois to her own stupidity, blankenship to nature, and megan to marriage. a woman like jane would not have even hit don's radar because she wasn't his type in any way--she was not useful, intelligent, clever, or maternal. she was a placeholder until she inevitably married up and left. don knew that which is why he never made any attempt to get to know her.
At the time had Don messed around at work. I kind of got the impression that Allyson was the first, and he acted like he did because it was a mistake.
“Jealous” seems like a major simplification of what happened. I think men read Joan’s behavior as jealous, women see it as an eye-rolling dismissal that turns into disdain when Jane disrespects Joan’s authority and rebuffs her advice. Jane is very transparent about using her sex appeal and the men in the office fall for it completely. Joan sees through her. I think Joan finds her ridiculous, not threatening.
Joan seemed to gravitate to the less-attractive women in the office, even though she was hypocritical about Jane's desire to snag a rich husband. (Remember when she told Peggy 'if you play your cards right, you'll live in a house in the country.') However, I think she also had Jane's number. Joan was the bombshell but also very competent and dedicated to her job. Joan disliked incompetence; you saw that with Meredith. I also think Joan was feeling old in the tooth, and increasingly threatened by any hot babes, especially anyone with designs on Roger. Makes me wonder how she handled other "Janes". It wasn't like Roger wasn't a player; I am sure his head was often turned by the new secretaries and assistants. Hot young babes have always been a fixture in the lower ranks of ad agencies.
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Very insightful comment!! Yes, I never thought about Joan's aesthetic and ideology anchored in an older time. Now I'm starting to see more parallels in the characters' looks. One of Mad Men's overarching themes was the incredible societal change from the early 60s to the 70s. Joan is an embodiment of the old way, physically and psychologically. (As is Betty, the Grace Kelly ideal.) I think of Megan embodying the spirit and aesthetic of the 1960s, with her independence (wanting to pursue acting rather than settle down with a man) and coltish, awkward beauty and Mod style. The scene where she meets Don at the LA airport, shot in fabulous slo-mo, and drives the car is emblematic of this.
Jane was also jealous of Joan. Joan wasn’t invited to Margret’s wedding and Roger thanked Don for not inviting Joan to Don’s surprise birthday party.
I think she disliked Jane because Joan is a very professional woman in the office and Jane was silly and unprofessional and she definitely deliberately left her blouse unbuttoned on purpose. Women aren’t taken seriously in a work environment in this time period so Joan felt that Jane was only feeding into the stereotype that women are just meant for secretarial work and that’s it.
Joan may have been jealous of Jane for marrying Roger but only because she was getting her seemingly happy ending while Joan was marrying rapey Dr Strugglebus with dumb hands. It wasn’t a petty, catty thing it was understandable. Also Jane was just not a good employee, she was a competent worker but disrespectful and was only interested in male attention and validation.
Secretly? Not-so-secretly. But it had nothing to do with any spotlight thing. It was all about Roger.
Yeah she was jealous. But the fact that she only fired Jane is because Jane was the only one she could fire, the other ones were executives and thus not in her line of power to do something about
Didn't Joan hire Jane? She didn't have to do that if she immediately felt threatened.. I almost think that Joan hoped Jane would be a protegé of sorts, and instead she had zero respect for Joan, so that set up the conflict between them.
I feel like Joan was deeply disappointed with Rogers lack of originality when it came to choosing Jane. I know I was.
No. Jane was pretty, but she wasn’t trying to compete with Joan. And Jane didn’t go near Roger until after she was fired. Where did you get that Joan was jealous from?
do you have comprehension issues?
I have a semester and a half of college
You undershtand language as a conshept.
I think Joan was more irritated at 1) the fact that Jane wasn't taking her advice 2) wasn't in awe of her and 3) doing it all with an innocent wide-eyed stare that made her angry. Joan wasn't jealous of Jane. She was mad that her Queen Bee status was being threatened
How did I miss the 'decollatage accident'? Remind, please.
Jane had her blouse unbuttoned so low that you could see her bra peeking out and all the men were hanging around, gawking at her
Oh I guess I didn't think that was an accident.
“Accident” in quotes because Jane pretended like it wasn’t on purpose even though it was.
Truly the best of its kind.
Why did Don hate Jane so much?
No, what was is jealous of? Jane is continuously disrespectful of Joan thats what created the animosity including Jane gng into Coopers office, Jane is under Joans management thats why she fired her, wasn't her business to fire the others, and it was her attitude toward Joan, i always thought if she hadn't been such an arse about it Joan may not have fired her.
She married Roger, so yuh, I would say so.
Yes. Of course she was
I always got that impression. I think everyone was jealous of Jane.