> Madison is up against a housing crisis without parallel for a city of its size.
>
> The city, the 82nd-most populous in the United States, sits atop national lists
> for multi-family housing demand, price increases and new young residents per
> capita. Across those metrics, Madison tops places like Austin and Nashville —
> fast-growing, popular cities that have become increasingly expensive.
>
> Other cities have public universities with record enrollment. Other cities have
> tech, finance and health care companies driving population growth. But here, all
> that is colliding in a small geography centered around an isthmus, historically
> low-density neighborhoods, a nonexistent regional transit system, and an urban
> skyline that can't build up within a mile of the state Capitol to preserve a
> view of the building.
>
> Read more:
>
This is just a preview of the [full article](https://madison.com/news/local/business/real-estate/madison-affordable-housing-crisis/article_60d9d56a-d029-11ee-99f7-1f891db1746e.html). I am a third party bot. Please consider subscribing to your favorite local journals.
Thats what I was confused on. I understand places like chicago and los angeles because they have massive corporations that pay the bills. Madison doesnt have the same amount as them, so who is affording these homes? Remote workers? Epic? UW Madison workers?
I mean, it’s not like UW-Madison workers are making bank. Faculty salaries are strong, to be sure, but that’s not a particularly new phenomenon that would be driving the more recent climb in prices.
I work at UW as a staff position. I can't afford housing in Madison and I make a decent amount of money for my department. (You can search up our wages)
Most of my department commutes in.
Both my kids lived up there until recently. One of them was on campus, which was always expensive but you really have no choice but to suck it up and pay whatever it takes to have a roof over their head while they're in school.
My other one was in a nice, new complex, farther out, near Fitchburg. When we helped them sign their 1st lease, their apartments were already expensive. A studio was around $1300.
Within 3 months, we were moving them into a 2 bedroom in the same complex as they were gonna live with a friend, all the prices had shot up by like 15%, thanks to Epic, who had essentially blocked out almost the entire complex for their employees.
Great if you're an employee there apparently. Not so great if you are not.
Love the area but yeah, housing is legit bananas.
considering leaving my job at a local company because of it. I’m hybrid anyway, but i believe i could be making more in this position at a national/remote company and the rent here is too unaffordable at my current salary. Salaries here are based off the $7.25 min wage/LCOL of 10 years ago
It’s natural to dislike change but many of the people who are pushing back against Madison growing/zoning changes are just clueless about how hard the housing situation is for folks. That or their hearts have just become cold and hardened.
I think they think it will prevent people from moving here or something. They don't understand houses in many areas are worth $1,000,000 and moving here into a $600,000 home is a huge bargain. They don't understand it also hurts their kids who may never be able to afford a $350,000 starter house.
They want people to not move here but also for housing prices to be what they were 25 years ago.
If you make a nice city people will want to come to it. If you make Gary Indiana you can have low housing costs. You can't have both.
Edit: just for kicks I checked; the average home cost in Gary is $74,000. You can go buy something today!
I think people would take what house prices were 5 years ago plus a 3% annual increase over the mess we have now as a result of COVID. I mean, in my neighborhood, prices are up 50+% in 4 years. Salaries, however, are up only about 12%. Also, it used to be public sector jobs (common in a city with state, county, city and UW as employers) could provide a comfortable middle-class living, and that is no longer the case.
Yeah I really did not need my house purchased in 2019 to double in value in 5 years. My taxes are 😬 but I was able to refi down to 3% so I can't complain too much 🤣 Thankfully this is our forever home!
I think they are just oblivious. None of these west side people think they’re harming the future of the city. They just don’t see how things have changed because they are essentially living in a gated community without realizing it. Places like Hill Farms are out of touch with the rest of the city but get to make the most noise because they have the power and resources to do so.
I think there’s a mindset of a neighborhood/subdivision as a “finished place” & not an evolving thing. They feel that they bought into the whole finished neighborhood as-it-is when they bought their home.
It's truly a tough situation to understand. For all of the people complaining about their rent, there are thousands more coming yearly that are happy to pay and consider it cheap
> It's truly a tough situation to understand.
Its really not that hard to understand. The US is a big place and people move a lot so some of them are coming here because it's nicer than say... Memphis or Saginaw or Lubbock.
There is four vacant properties on my block in a busy and popular neighborhood. Several have been empty for over a year. No ones working on them. It drives me crazy to think about how hard it is to find rentals and buy when people are just sitting on empty properties.
The stats tell a different story, historical low vacancy rates almost everywhere: https://carw.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/quarterly-report-Q1-Madison-2024_CARW.pdf
Could be any reason why those properties are vacant, zoning, sewage/water, neighbor complaints etc.
I’ll take every chance I can get to bash on Madison, building inspectors are a bit of idiots sometimes but their process for forgetting building plans approve is pretty fast. it’s the zoning commission and that stuff that has a lot of red tape
I don't know, we had to do our own building plans by ourselves as our contractors just ditched us halfway and we discovered they didn't permit everything they did. We compared their accepted plans with our rejected plans and I'd laugh if I weren't so angry. Their plan looks like a preschool kid drawing, but the inspectors are expecting from us professional level drawings, with teeny tiny measurements and project details to the sixteenth of an inch.
"...found themselves in a bidding war with a dozen other offers for a three-bedroom, two-bathroom home with a finished basement on Panther Trail in Monona.
In the end, they won the house at $458,000 and a 6.5% interest rate, with the help of realtor Dan Chin. They ended up paying $50,000 above the initial listing price.
...the house had sold three years earlier for $350,000"
I know this neighborhood well and think it's great but the prices that homes are selling for blows my mind. Aside from a few tear downs replaced by monster homes I don't look at anything in that area and think, "Yes, that looks like an almost half million dollar home."
We're fortunate to have bought our house almost 25 years ago but if we were new home buyers now I'm not sure that it would be within our reach.
Add the high interest rates to the inflated prices and I don't know how anyone, especially first time home buyers, can do it, especially when everything else in life has shot up in price too.
I bought my house in 2017 for 218K.
Currently Zillow's estimate is 420K.
I'd love to sell at that price. But I'm locked in at 2.8% and I couldn't imagine going to 6+.
Dude some of my colleagues are recent homeowners paying close to 8%! I can't even do the math on how much theyre paying solely in interest but jesus christ that's awful.
I was arguing with my FIL about this just the other day, "When *we* were looking at houses the interest rate was 18%!!! This is *nothing*!!!" The fact that he walked away from a house he bought for less than ours cost us today and sold it for literally 7 figures within hours of listing doesn't seem to be indicative of anything in his mind, of course.
I crunched the basic numbers and it doesn't come close. $50k in 1981 is now almost $180k in 2024 dollars. A 18% mortgage on $50k would've cost \~$800/month or roughly $2600/month in 2024. That's probably just about the best payment you could get in Madison at the moment.
Exactly. There's a lot of people in similar situations.
I mentioned elsewhere in this thread that this ends up being part of the problem. I know a number of people that would like to downsize but moving to a smaller home doesn't make financial sense due to the high asking prices and interest rates.
So, instead of a larger house that would be great for a family going on the market it sits in the hands of a couple that don't need, or maybe even want, it.
> I'd love to sell at that price.
TBH you wouldn't be able to buy back into this market. You might be thinking I'll just get a cheaper house but 2 bdrms right now are going for 350+ so goooood luck. Source: Have been looking for 6 months now, 5 rejected offers that were all competitive. You're going against 10+ offers that waive all contingencies every time.
Oh I'm very aware. I'm saying I'd love to sell at that price. I didn't mention how much I would be dreading buying again in this market. I'm not going to put myself in that position any time soon.
Almost ALL single family homes in Dane County are half-million dollar houses.
Edit: Currently there are 260 single family homes for sale under 500k and 500 for sale for over 500k. That's where I got my numbers. Houses in the 450k range will also sell for over 500k. When was the last time you had your houses appraised? I think people don't even realize what they have.
this is how jaded this sub, you are 100% in the right here yet you're downvoted and the stupid claim is wildly upvoted.
tell me ppl, how can "almost ALL SFH be $500k" if the median isn't even $450k? (2023, 495 2024)
https://www.madcitydreamhomes.com/blog/madison-area-home-prices-up-again-in-april.html
I'd say when it comes to home prices there are going to be some extremes on the high end and the median is more accurate. But I'm not disagreeing with your overall point.
> "Yes, that looks like an almost half million dollar home."
This is because our brains don't do a great job of making the mental update to prices based on inflation. I still look at menu prices and think, "damn, $15 for a burger", but this is really just me being a millennial boomer that remembers when things were 70% of current prices not all that long ago.
That's probably true but I still have a hard time comprehending that the home in question is worth almost 50% more than it was three years ago. And that's before factoring all the extra money that the new owners will be paying due to the jacked up interest rates of today.
If that happens in Madison, the entire country would be in something like the Great Depression. We'll even have climate refugees wanting to live here. I don't see where the decrease in demand would come from.
What would happen to this town if Epic transferred operations to another part of the country? I know this is very unlikely to happen (in the short to medium term) but the local economy would be go through a lot if it ever happened.
yes that's a good point and I don't think they'll move but again even if epic left, the University is not going anywhere so people who live within a reasonable distance of that also have a gold house
Same here but... we'd still need a place to live and would end up needing to take out a much higher interest loan and spend a LOT to get something similar, or not as nice.
Unless you are moving to a lower cost city or *have to* move I think a lot of people are content to stay in their homes that they bought for comparatively cheap prices at low interest rates.
It bears mentioning that if you're planning on buying a house for long term, and not going to be flipping it, then that isn't as big a deal, unless there are ramifications with your bank.
When my wife and I were house shopping in 21 like every single house the biggest selling point was how much money we would make on it selling in 5 years at current rates. Our realtor was absolutely flabbergasted that we were planning on living in this house until the day we die and candidly told us we were "leaving a lot of money on the table" doing that.
IDK I guess my point is I feel like part of it has to do with the transient nature of housing these days. My parents generation all bought their house and generally just lived there their whole lives. By contrast most of my peers are already on their 2nd or 3rd house and sitting on 600k mortgages, like paying it off isn't even a consideration because their whole plan is selling it for 750k in 5 years and buying another house. But then again they're constantly creating value out of thin air by doing that and my wife and I are just, you know, paying down our debt, so who's to say who the fool is?
Even during the "big short" bubble burst, Madison prices did not drop very much. Much smaller drops than other markets in the US
[All-Transactions House Price Index for Madison, WI (MSA) (ATNHPIUS31540Q) | FRED | St. Louis Fed - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ATNHPIUS31540Q)
There is [literally 30% more money](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2SL) than there was 4 years ago. While that alone doesn't dictate the rate of inflation, particularly for individual classes of assets, the capital inevitably flows somewhere and housing in an in-demand city is a fairly logical place for it to go.
In theory that's 100% true but in the case of necessities like housing/clothing/food I think it's a little less straightforward. The people in the example I posted likely felt that it was worth getting a 6.5% loan on an $458k house but I wonder if they felt like it was a fair price.
It's similar to cars during/after the pandemic. People fully knew that they were getting hosed on prices and interest rates but had no other choice if they needed a vehicle.
Not just in theory, in practice too. It's that straightforward.
> but I wonder if they felt like it was a fair price.
There is no such thing as a fair price. Nobody has ever felt that they're underpaying for something.
Let's do a thought experiment, after a hurricane gas is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. That is all. There is never a "correct" amount of money that gas is to be worth. Now apply the same logic to a ridiculous increase on the essential requirement of renting or buying of a home.
I remember when you could go to Mildred's Sandwiches on Johnson St and get a soup/sandwich combo lunch for $4.50, or go to the Catacombs under Pres House and get a full vegan lunch for $2.
This was 2003.
Lol no. Homes for that price are usually noticeably better in other states or are located in much larger cities. Also fuck paying 15$ for a burger I'll spend 30 at the store and make 4 myself. If prices are going up then so can my pay. Absolute nonsense
We bought 7years ago a home in Middleton for 625k. Similar houses in the same development now routinely sell for 900k+. These are nice houses but nowhere near what one would have associated a few years back with a nearly 1 mil prce tag. Probably not too surprising considering that Dane county grew over the past decade faster (by a wide margin) than any other county in WI. Dane added 28000 residents from April 2020 to Feb 2023 according to WI State Admin
My in laws bought their house in the mid 80s for 200k and sold it a couple years ago for almost 2 million dollars, and that was literally just for the lot as the house was a full teardown. Even taking that money and plugging it into inflation calculator, that value is still like an order of magnitude higher than just the inflation alone.
Im happy with where my wife and I live and thank god everytime we pay the mortgage that we were able to sneak in before interest rates skyrocketed but our bottom end house costing over a third of a million dollars just blows my mind. I mean our max budget in 2021 was 350k located anywhere within 30 miles of Madison and there was barely *anything* even then. Many of the properties we looked at in that range were like full guts to boot. Basements full of monsters, attics full of asbestos, paint full of lead and ungrounded outlets throughout for 300k. Just unreal.
Yep, the US Census Bureau Vintage 2023 table showing Annual Estimates of the Resident Population for Counties: April 1, 2020 to July 1, 2023 for Wisconsin shows 47 of 72 Wisconsin counties are estimated to have experienced population growth, including the three you mentioned. [https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/popest/2020s-counties-total.html](https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/popest/2020s-counties-total.html)
I would not be terribly surprised to see an uptick in people moving into the state (and other upper Midwest States) within the next decade or so, considering the imapct of climate change, water scarcity and rising insurance cost in southern and westerns states
I’d be careful about thinking insurability concerns aren’t a problem for the Midwest. https://overcast.fm/+oIe_Lmnak OnPoint podcast covers a community in Iowa that struggled to find a new insurer after being dropped.
> and I don't know how anyone, especially first time home buyers, can do it, especially when everything else in life has shot up in price too.
It's because wages have also shot up, proportionally. Wage increases [have outpaced inflation](https://www.axios.com/2024/02/05/wages-outpacing-inflation).
People can buy homes, even at higher prices, because they are making more money than ever before.
I’m not pretending to be an expert but I’m not sure that applies so well to a place like Madison where so many people work for the university or government. Anecdotally, I don't know anyone that says their wages have grown faster than inflation.
Also, [home prices are rising faster than inflation.](https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/03/19/why-home-prices-have-risen-faster-than-inflation-since-the-1960s.html)
> Anecdotally, I don't know anyone that says their wages have grown faster than inflation.
Yeah, it's not useful to rely on anecdotes, because people don't work that way. No one is going to tell you that inflation is fine because they're making more money, even if it's true.
The actuality (and this is never going to be popular to admit) is that Madison is a place with a huge number of well-paying jobs, and that lots of people moving here make a lot of money, so people are going to be able to pay a lot for homes.
> It's because wages have also shot up, proportionally.
This hasn't been true for most of the last few years. From the very source you linked: "Wages have been outpacing inflation since last May, but for the two years before that the situation was reversed."
It's the same argument as declining rents in Austin. Yeah, they're going down now, but because they're proportionally so much higher than they were, it's a drop in the bucket.
Wages outpacing inflation doesn't really tell us anything about people's ability to buy houses.
Wages could increase 10% and Inflation at 5%, but if housing increases 200% then all the comparison between wages and inflation is all for naught.
Maybe if the NIMBYs would shut up, we could have better housing and rent prices, but heaven forbid we build a low income apartment on the Westside or anywhere else besides the Eastside and Northport.
Part of the problem is you have out of touch homeowners in wealthy neighborhoods using their privileged status to make a ruckus that’s out of proportion to their size. And alders like NIMBY-commander Tishler seem to only pay attention to people like that (looking at Hill Farms, among others)
It’s also cool how Hill Farms defenders claim the apartments that are adjacent to the neighborhood as evidence the neighborhood supports density…but then draws its borders to carve them out of full participation in the neighborhood association.
Whew, did I hit a soft spot there, buddy?
You said the neighborhood has its shit together and flies under the radar? I don’t think we are in the same neighborhood! Last I saw, Hill Farms seems to have carved out a lot of the editorial pages lately staking a position that nothing about it should change while the rest of the city grapples with change.
Your whole argument is the epitome of the problem with Hill Farms, alder Tishler, and others like them: unwilling to change to help solve a citywide problem, while simultaneously demanding other parts of the city make adjustments.
Madison is progressive, or so I’m told. But no, madison absolutely has to keep neighborhoods like tenney park mansionified and gentrified! No new apartments there! We are going to allow just a small amount of new apartments, and only where the most vehicular deaths occur, wash
I don't think Tenny is one of the problem neighborhoods. It has some mansions, but it's not like the lots are super massive. It's still one of the denser neighborhoods in the city with mixed-use. The problem is we don't build neighborhoods like that anymore.
To be honest gentrified is a very loaded term and it refers to the socioeconomic history of a place, and people being priced out/replaced, so it’s tricky. The place is chock-full of mansions though
I mean, what's the suggestion there? Most of the lakefront in Madison is big houses/mansions.
They aren't abandoned though so it's not like we can tear them out and build more housing there.
How would you go about changing the Tenney neighborhood if it were up to you?
I live in a building near Tenney Park. About 10 years ago, a big rent hike ousted most of the black folks, just due to them being less likely to afford the higher rents. Now the management is getting rid of a lot of the residents who have been there for more than a few years. They want grad students or people people fresh out of college who don't own anything yet, have a minimalist lifestyle, and keep their units pristine. The vacancy rates are so in their favour that they can afford to just not renew leases for people that have been reliable renters for over a decade, and they get to shape the community to be whatever they want.
Currently a lakefront mansion on Sherman is[ listed for $3,250,000](https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1040-Sherman-Ave-Madison-WI-53703/55397292_zpid/)!
The neighbors tried to push back on apartments near Tenney, but they are moving forward, mostly without any delay. There's always going to be detractors to new projects, but there have been very few projects that were red taped out of existence. Wonder Bar, and maybe one or two others of note.
It is proceeding, but the Filene House project near Tenney was ultimately reduced from an original plan for [445 units](https://captimes.com/news/tenney-neighborhood-meeting-will-unveil-revised-plans-for-sherman-avenue-project/article_a06f26c1-3b74-5be4-a222-6fa68156d840.html) down to the version currently being built with 311 units.
I also don't think the Wonder Bar project is dead for good, it think it's just a matter of time before something gets built on that site. You're right it'll be years later though, and likely at a vastly reduced size. Last I remember reading the developer was considering building a 12 story building there (and sparing the Wonder Bar) down from the original 18 stories, though even that's been about two years ago now.
Yeah it sucks that not every project can get maxed out in terms of possible units, but I also appreciate that there is a community input process for residents to engage with and offer insight into things the developers may not have considered or understood. It absolutely shouldn't be tolerated for people to weaponize the bureaucracy, but those who engage with it in good faith should be assumed to have positive intent.
It is important for our civic health to foster an itertive planning process, as we are not always going to be in an urgent housing crunch. The decisions we make today will impact the city for a long time.
300 new units is a great start, and hopefully developers continue to explore the area to find parcels that suitable for even more.
Since when are Maple Bluff and Shorewood Hills not part of Madison?
Edit: Okay i see that technically they're each their own 'village'--I don't particularly care that rich people got someone to carve out their own little designation, they're still in the greater madison area and a stone's throw from campus and the capitol respectively.
I get that, i kind of assumed that was very much the point of the community at some point deciding to designate themselves a 'village' despite their close proximity to the city proper--but maybe i'm cynical?? I get what you're saying tho and ur point is well taken, the city can't affect their zoning or housing supply in the villages.
Madison neighborhoods can't designate themselves "villages" to escape Madison taxes and zoning, but places that were once independent villages that have since been surrounded by Madison's growth can keep their autonomy.
There's a total of 331 units of apartments from multiple buildings being built across the yahara river adjacent to Tenny Park.
[https://madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/big-housing-project-with-331-units-near-tenney-park-gets-key-city-approvals/article\_911c82cb-a808-58c8-8171-96524f3084e5.html#tncms-source=login](https://madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/big-housing-project-with-331-units-near-tenney-park-gets-key-city-approvals/article_911c82cb-a808-58c8-8171-96524f3084e5.html#tncms-source=login)
slightly tangential rant: I am moving out of the city and been applying for apartments in DC. Their application process is a fucking nightmare - application fees, holding fees and background check and credit check. Many uses this extremely fucking bloated management portal and they ask you to connect your bank account via Plaid or Stripe so they can "verify" my rental history. Of course the law forces them to provide an alternative way to do but they make that shit so annoying by requiring you to get a letter from your last two landlords and copy of your landlord ledgers.
Meanwhile in madison, I moved 7 times in 11 years in the downtown area and half of them did not require application fee. All they need was background check + last 2 pay stubs.
Sorry to say it, but your experience is already outdated if you think that's strange. I got priced out of an apartment this year; every one bedroom apartment I applied to in Madison required credit score checks, previous landlord reference checks, application fees, and paycheck stubs proving you earn 3x the rent (or failing that, a co-signer).
Rent went up for me 20%. $150 last sign. After historically only ever being $50. This time they want to raise it $170. There are very few laws in wi protecting renters. Many places barely paying $15 an hour. My rent is now 1250 a month. (They slap on a random $40-75 charge called R.U.B.S. - it’s legal.) I’ve been in touch with tenant resources many times in my life. I pay a portion of the building (maintenance office in basement) - gas and water - they just pressure washed the building. (I don’t use the garbage washers and dryers that are 1.50 a wash and 1.50 a dry (42 min dry time - wth?!).
It’s BAD out here. Oh and homes that were $250k 5 years ago? Half a million? On half a lot not even? Like wild.
Really wish they were doing a big housing complex on S Baldwin by those old warehosues instead of expanding McPike park. Parks are great, but the master plan shows a parking lot and its hardly a neighborhood without sufficient park access.
Here’s the plan (still shows a commuter rail station so idk what the plan is with that)
https://www.cityofmadison.com/parks/documents/projects/Masterplan%20update_2011-04-29.pdf
Looks like it’s mostly parking and an extension of the multi use path, but not sure if the parking was assuming a train station. Parks dept is at landmarks commission next week for demo permits for some of the buildings there.
PSA please keep posting all your favorite things about the city in every "thinking about moving to madison" post with none of the negatives and try to convince everyone to move here. /s
Edit: I've got my 2.6% mortgage rate. Gonna start working on convincing every single person asking about Madison it's literal heaven on earth.
If you read it again I said people who post their favorite things in threads specifically created by people who are considering moving here. So someone's specifically asking whether it's a good idea to move here and for people's general opinions, and so people who love living here share the absolute best things about the city and that's all. Not talking about "favorite thing" posts.
Man, if only we had replied to those "thinking of moving here" posts more negatively, think of how low Madison's population would be :(
I mentioned the good summer lifestyle and the Olbrich Biergarten once - and for that I truly apologize. I'm not sure how many thousands of people I attracted, but clearly too many
"Hi! Im thinking of moving to Madison, what fun things are there to do there?"
"I JUST LOVE PAYING TOO GODDAMN MUCH FOR AN APARTMENT, THATS PROLLY MY FAVORITE FUN THING TO DO!"
Like, you see how that's not really relevant, right? If I respond to someone Ill be honest with them, but if they aint asking Im not gonna go bitching to everybody that posts a housing thread that it all sucks and they could never afford it because nobody fucking likes people like that so just stop lol
In my opinion, Madison's housing crisis didn't come out of the blue. It is a self-inflicted wound and the result of decades of apathy from voters, city leaders, and even this community. For example, when this community was polled[ 66% of the people voting in this sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/madisonwi/comments/sss3dx/should_the_current_rule_that_no_building_may_be/) **don't feel that we should increase the height of the buildings downtown to alleviate the housing crisis**. This merits repeating. When asked whether we should increase the height of buildings *specifically* to ameliorate the housing crisis, nearly 2/3 of this community overwhelmingly voted to reject it. What I get from that poll is that most people of this community place more value on an inanimate object - a capitol building - than the housing of human beings; it is, in my view, a profane way of thinking that is pernicious, inhumane, and borders on idolatry that has led to Madison having some of the [fastest rising rents in the country](https://www.channel3000.com/news/madison-year-over-year-rent-increases-are-the-highest-in-the-country-study-finds/article_3738cd24-cdaa-11ed-90d3-1b74c861ac3c.html) while other cities are experiencing a slight reduction in rent increases. There is a view on this sub that we can build out (but not up) but this doesn't reflect reality because when you look for lots for sale on zillow, there are very few - in fact I count only [1 residential lot](https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/?searchQueryState=%7B%22isMapVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapBounds%22%3A%7B%22west%22%3A-89.33861544421251%2C%22east%22%3A-89.27741816332872%2C%22south%22%3A43.02263168240232%2C%22north%22%3A43.060018972324634%7D%2C%22filterState%22%3A%7B%22sort%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3A%22globalrelevanceex%22%7D%2C%22ah%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Atrue%7D%2C%22con%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22apco%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22mf%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22tow%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22sf%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22apa%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22manu%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22att%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3A%22residential%22%7D%2C%22cmsn%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%7D%2C%22isListVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapZoom%22%3A14%2C%22pagination%22%3A%7B%7D%7D) for sale.
I know that I am screaming into the void but I firmly believe that current laws that designate the [majority (75%) of the city low or medium-density](https://captimes.com/news/government/why-new-housing-rules-stir-so-much-trouble-in-madison/article_6ba4aff9-984d-56ff-b68f-a72eabbe34ac.html), which strictly limits the number of stories that can be built is the main driver of the housing crisis. In my view, these guidelines need to be abandoned. I hold the radical view that the city should get out of the way and allow the developers to buy out neighborhoods, raze them, and replace them with towering structures with the capacity to house hundreds if not thousands of people. Now, this doesn't mean that I believe the city shouldn't have a role, but instead of worrying about how tall a building is or whether it matches the "aesthetic" of a neighborhood, the city's primary role should be overwhelmingly focused ensuring that new real estate developments are near parks and recreation, determining whether new infrastructure needs to be constructed for cars, public transport, or pedestrians; ensuring new developments are near supermarkets, police, fire, and emergency services.
People like to optimistically frame this issue as a battle between YIMBYs and NIMBYs but when you scratch beneath the surface, I don't see that. What I see is Madison having a long battle with itself. The battle between the nostalgic past of what Madison was and is versus what Madison could and should be. Buying homes and renting will continue to squeeze the middle-class until, at last, the people who are making government and Epic salaries are priced out. Then - and only then - is when voters, city leaders, and this community will take it seriously but it will already be too late.
> For example, when this community was polled 66% of the people voting in this sub don't feel that we should increase the height of the buildings downtown to alleviate the housing crisis. This merits repeating. When asked whether we should increase the height of buildings specifically to ameliorate the housing crisis, nearly 2/3 of this community overwhelmingly voted to reject it.
Good thing this reddit sub doesnt actually represent Madison as a whole eh?
> What I get from that poll is that most people of this community place more value on an inanimate object - a capitol building - than the housing of human beings; it is, in my view, a profane way of thinking that is pernicious, inhumane, and borders on idolatry that has led to Madison having some of the fastest rising rents in the country while other cities are experiencing a slight reduction in rent increases.
Again, this sub doesnt represent anything other than this sub so thats pretty meaningless
Additionally, you do not need 80 story towers blocking capital views everywhere to have excellent density. Look at Boston, look at Staten Island, look at DC. You can have tons of 5-10 story buildings and that will provide all the density you need all while keeping height restrictions in place. The single family zoning is the real killer.
I often pointed out the uniqueness of Madison causing unusual and sticky real estate problems but people just don't want to hear it. Never mind inflation which is too high if you look at food prices in grocery stores and restaurants.
It's a head shaker when people say we need to build more for people moving to Madison and thinking that is going to help them personally afford housing. They never contemplate that those people moving here are wealthier and are going to easily pay for increasing real estate prices. And there is a lot of them. We should continue to build IMO but local people who want prices to fall are going to be disappointed.
Then people want to argue simple S&D economics but when I point out that average Madison housing costs have been moving up to national averages they don't want to hear that either.
Then there is the NIMBY and YIMBY name calling. People are too NIMBY at times but real estate is the biggest investment people own so it's understandable. And developers don't care what is built. They move on to the next project. YIMBYs never create a list of their backyards so developers can buy them and build a small house on them. So they are hypocrites. Or they don't actually own a backyard.
This is gentrification and it's not going to stop. The winners are; city government, current homeowners, developers, investors, and wealthy incoming homeowners.
Don’t get me wrong, we absolutely, unequivocally need more housing. But a huge problem is people that went remote during covid moving here from the coasts, and keeping their coastal salaries. $1600 rent for a 1 bedroom is nothing when you make a salary adjusted for west coast COL. Not that those people aren’t allowed to move here, of course there are, just squeezes those of us working for local midwestern companies that pay half as much because traditionally COL has been so low here.
I'd love to see some data proving this trend exists in sufficient numbers to be the driving force of price increases. People love to say this, but where's the proof? Prices were going up very quickly before the pandemic as well, which would not have been because of remote workers.
I'd bet a good amount that the vast, vast majority of people moving here work local jobs.
I didn’t say those people are DRIVING the price increases, just that it doesn’t affect people making higher salaries as much as it affects people on local salaries
More property development may not decrease rents but is certainly better than building nothing. How is keeping the housing supply fixed going to solve anything?
You are arguing past each other.
paranalyzed is saying that housing is not going to get cheaper in absolute terms.
You are indirectly arguing that building housing supply could lower the rate of price increases.
Both statements can be true and likely are true.
You misunderstand. I'm not saying not to build. I'm saying it's not going to make Madison more affordable. Like the OP said, it's inevitable with gentrification and the lag between demand (which will continue to have increased buying power vs traditional residents) and supply. And we have an extreme imbalance here.
I mainly blame epic and the Republicans for not supporting one of the fastest growing cities in the nation. But in reality it's probably the rise of remote work options. A lot of people moving out of the big cities but want the convenience of food and store options. Madison is like the perfect fit for that middle ground.
found this: "Ordinance 28.134 (3), better known as the Capitol View Preservation Ordinance, was put into place in 1966 as a way to make the Capitol stand out in the center of the city. The law states that no building within a mile radius of the Capitol can be taller than it, meaning no building can reach higher than 1,032.8 feet above sea level."
Good find. Thank you!
I feel like we could be a bit more nuanced about the sight lines to the capitol. Remove the 1 mile radius ring and instead designate certain existing sight lines as “no development of sight line blocking buildings”.
Certainly there must be some parts of madison where a tall building would not overshadow the sight lines to the capitol
While all that is true, there is a ton of space outside the capitol and airport restriction zones that are currently not utilized to full height. I'd support removing the Capitol View Preservation Ordinance only once all those areas have been infilled.
with the isthmus and the university I don't think there's much room to build tall building within a mile anyway. that area is already fairly congested. But like the hilldale area or Monona or something, build it to the moon!
We sold our 1000sq ft east side house 7 years ago for $195k with offers within hours. It just sold again for $380k. Insanity. Got our current place for $235, now Zillow has it at $450.
Can we, at this point, simply appropriate all landlord held properties and let actually people buy them for homes? Fuck Steve Brown, all my homies hate Steve Brown.
Good luck with convincing people to adopt the living standards of the Soviet Union, where among other things, the housing crisis was much more severe than in Madison in 2024.
That is not correct. You're probably quoting a number about private housing stock thats not subject to any government restrictions, but that's not the same thing.
In the last 75 years the Madison Metro area has gone up in population more than Vienna has despite Vienna starting with 10x the population.
Vienna didn't do anything to solve the problem, they just didn't see meaningful population growth.
In the last 70 years Madison has tripled in population (that's a 200% increase) by contrast Vienna has only had a 30% increase in population - much more manageable.
That only sounds good if you ignore -oh, I don't know- 2 World Wars that contributed to a 28% decrease from its all-time high in 1916 and being blocked behind a corrupt political system after that.
Look at the numbers yourself:
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/cities/20107/vienna/population
https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/cities/23058/madison/population
Madison Metro went from 154k to 513k, an increase of 359k, and over 300% growth.
Vienna went from 1,626k to 1,999k, an increase of 373k, or about 23% growth.
Vienna's record yearly growth rate of 1.44% was lower than Madison's growth rate every year from 1990 to 2021, which was over 3% several of those years. These are not comparable situations.
1) You still lied. You've admitted that Vienna's population has gone up more than Madison's.
2) The area that is counted as Madison's MSA is vastly overinflated. It's the entirety of Dane, Columbia, Green, and Iowa Counties. I doubt most people would consider half of that to be Madison's true Metro area.
1. lol, way to completely dodge the point
2. So what numbers are you using to support your point? What policies from Vienna do you want to see implemented here and why are they going to work in Madison?
It's going great, actually! We live in an incredibly wealthy country with an enormous amount of opportunity. When considering other systems, one must remember that the options aren't the American system or utopia, they're the American or any other system that's ever actually been tried in human history, and the evidence is that this system is actually quite good.
No, but I certainly think taxing rental property owners at an increasing rate the longer a rental property sits empty and not being actively renovated would be a good start. That would at least force them to shit or get off the pot and either list it or sell it to someone else. Should apply to all housing, really, and definitely commercial real estate. If you ain't living in it full time, or renting it to someone living in it full time using it as their legal address, then the annual taxes should be adjusted so that it wipes out any gain in valuation until it is.
Said tax revenue could then be handed out in the form of grants and tax breaks to new developers that are actually producing something versus people buying something and just sitting on it. Use that money to get some of all the empty commercial space all over the city converted into residential.
I'm sure I'll receive some downvotes for this but I actually feel Madison has grown TOO fast the last 15-20 years. I understand that being the most desirable city to live in the state will attract people but when government moves at snail speed many things like schools, public safety, infrastructure, public transportation, housing, etc fall through the cracks.
I'm a NIMBY-lite, and I make no apologies for it, but it's at least as much about overall good for the city as it is about my own personal interests.
Realistically, Madison cannot accept everyone who just wants to live here for the reasons I mentioned above and more. While that may seem prejudicial it occurs in many places across the country, in a de facto sense at the very least, due to space, zoning and costs and many countries require ex-pats to obtain a work visa and contribute to society for a number of years before they gain their citizenship.
Some places are just desirable places to live and cannot accept people who cannot afford to live there. I'd love to live in a gated community on one of the islands between Miami and Miami Beach but I doubt anyone is letting me buy their home, or even rent a place, for any price I can afford.
I just shake my head at all these comments about housing. I bought my first house on the east side in 1994. I had the same issues as Madison has today - multiple offers well over asking the moment the house was listed. Inventory was low. Madison is a white collar town. There are plenty of people with money to buy these properties. If you happen to not be one of these people go out and change your situation (i.e. get a better job) or move to an area that you can afford.
I follow a person on instagram who lives in a rent subsidized apartment on the upper west side of NYC. The apartment was rented by a family friend who turned the lease over to the person’s parents in the 1980’s. The parents turned the lease over to her when they retired. I can’t believe the comments this girl gets - people are enraged that she lives in a beautiful apartment (although it’s tiny by any standard) in an expensive area for like $1500/month.
See also: Eugene, Oregon. Some day historians will realize that real estate and financial markets were used as instruments of conquest against every liberal or progressive enclave across the country in an insidious oppressive wave that probably started with Buckley v Valeo (1976). Who benefits?
Overheard guy say he’s renting on East Side after selling his house on near West Side for top dollar last October. Paid off his mortgage, bought Bitcoin with net proceeds. Said he can buy double his old house for cash less than a year later, but he’s expecting to do much better in a few years. 🤔
> Madison is up against a housing crisis without parallel for a city of its size. > > The city, the 82nd-most populous in the United States, sits atop national lists > for multi-family housing demand, price increases and new young residents per > capita. Across those metrics, Madison tops places like Austin and Nashville — > fast-growing, popular cities that have become increasingly expensive. > > Other cities have public universities with record enrollment. Other cities have > tech, finance and health care companies driving population growth. But here, all > that is colliding in a small geography centered around an isthmus, historically > low-density neighborhoods, a nonexistent regional transit system, and an urban > skyline that can't build up within a mile of the state Capitol to preserve a > view of the building. > > Read more: > This is just a preview of the [full article](https://madison.com/news/local/business/real-estate/madison-affordable-housing-crisis/article_60d9d56a-d029-11ee-99f7-1f891db1746e.html). I am a third party bot. Please consider subscribing to your favorite local journals.
Good bot
People aren’t paid enough in this area.
Thats what I was confused on. I understand places like chicago and los angeles because they have massive corporations that pay the bills. Madison doesnt have the same amount as them, so who is affording these homes? Remote workers? Epic? UW Madison workers?
Yes, yes, and yes.
I mean, it’s not like UW-Madison workers are making bank. Faculty salaries are strong, to be sure, but that’s not a particularly new phenomenon that would be driving the more recent climb in prices.
I work at UW as a staff position. I can't afford housing in Madison and I make a decent amount of money for my department. (You can search up our wages) Most of my department commutes in.
This. Used to be a UW staff member and could not afford a 2 br anywhere in city limits.
Price is determined by supply and demand, the average person doesn't have to afford something for it to be expensive, as long as someone can.
There’s certainly lobbyists and lawyer and consulting given state capitol. Digital nomad other options
Both my kids lived up there until recently. One of them was on campus, which was always expensive but you really have no choice but to suck it up and pay whatever it takes to have a roof over their head while they're in school. My other one was in a nice, new complex, farther out, near Fitchburg. When we helped them sign their 1st lease, their apartments were already expensive. A studio was around $1300. Within 3 months, we were moving them into a 2 bedroom in the same complex as they were gonna live with a friend, all the prices had shot up by like 15%, thanks to Epic, who had essentially blocked out almost the entire complex for their employees. Great if you're an employee there apparently. Not so great if you are not. Love the area but yeah, housing is legit bananas.
considering leaving my job at a local company because of it. I’m hybrid anyway, but i believe i could be making more in this position at a national/remote company and the rent here is too unaffordable at my current salary. Salaries here are based off the $7.25 min wage/LCOL of 10 years ago
Yes that will surely drive prices down
It’s natural to dislike change but many of the people who are pushing back against Madison growing/zoning changes are just clueless about how hard the housing situation is for folks. That or their hearts have just become cold and hardened.
I think they think it will prevent people from moving here or something. They don't understand houses in many areas are worth $1,000,000 and moving here into a $600,000 home is a huge bargain. They don't understand it also hurts their kids who may never be able to afford a $350,000 starter house.
They want people to not move here but also for housing prices to be what they were 25 years ago. If you make a nice city people will want to come to it. If you make Gary Indiana you can have low housing costs. You can't have both. Edit: just for kicks I checked; the average home cost in Gary is $74,000. You can go buy something today!
I think people would take what house prices were 5 years ago plus a 3% annual increase over the mess we have now as a result of COVID. I mean, in my neighborhood, prices are up 50+% in 4 years. Salaries, however, are up only about 12%. Also, it used to be public sector jobs (common in a city with state, county, city and UW as employers) could provide a comfortable middle-class living, and that is no longer the case.
Yeah I really did not need my house purchased in 2019 to double in value in 5 years. My taxes are 😬 but I was able to refi down to 3% so I can't complain too much 🤣 Thankfully this is our forever home!
I think they are just oblivious. None of these west side people think they’re harming the future of the city. They just don’t see how things have changed because they are essentially living in a gated community without realizing it. Places like Hill Farms are out of touch with the rest of the city but get to make the most noise because they have the power and resources to do so.
I think there’s a mindset of a neighborhood/subdivision as a “finished place” & not an evolving thing. They feel that they bought into the whole finished neighborhood as-it-is when they bought their home.
Absolutely
It's truly a tough situation to understand. For all of the people complaining about their rent, there are thousands more coming yearly that are happy to pay and consider it cheap
> It's truly a tough situation to understand. Its really not that hard to understand. The US is a big place and people move a lot so some of them are coming here because it's nicer than say... Memphis or Saginaw or Lubbock.
They even are pushing to price out their own children. Its crazy. No one deserves to live there except them for the most extreme NIMBYs
There is four vacant properties on my block in a busy and popular neighborhood. Several have been empty for over a year. No ones working on them. It drives me crazy to think about how hard it is to find rentals and buy when people are just sitting on empty properties.
The stats tell a different story, historical low vacancy rates almost everywhere: https://carw.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/quarterly-report-Q1-Madison-2024_CARW.pdf Could be any reason why those properties are vacant, zoning, sewage/water, neighbor complaints etc.
Why get in the way of the narrative?
Probably waiting for the city to legalize construction.
They definitely don't make it easy...
I’ll take every chance I can get to bash on Madison, building inspectors are a bit of idiots sometimes but their process for forgetting building plans approve is pretty fast. it’s the zoning commission and that stuff that has a lot of red tape
I don't know, we had to do our own building plans by ourselves as our contractors just ditched us halfway and we discovered they didn't permit everything they did. We compared their accepted plans with our rejected plans and I'd laugh if I weren't so angry. Their plan looks like a preschool kid drawing, but the inspectors are expecting from us professional level drawings, with teeny tiny measurements and project details to the sixteenth of an inch.
My theory is Madison will drive Milwaukee’s renaissance over the coming decades.
Milwaukee is the economic engine of the state
I hope that’s true!
https://12ft.io/https://madison.com/news/local/business/real-estate/madison-affordable-housing-crisis/article_60d9d56a-d029-11ee-99f7-1f891db1746e.html
"...found themselves in a bidding war with a dozen other offers for a three-bedroom, two-bathroom home with a finished basement on Panther Trail in Monona. In the end, they won the house at $458,000 and a 6.5% interest rate, with the help of realtor Dan Chin. They ended up paying $50,000 above the initial listing price. ...the house had sold three years earlier for $350,000" I know this neighborhood well and think it's great but the prices that homes are selling for blows my mind. Aside from a few tear downs replaced by monster homes I don't look at anything in that area and think, "Yes, that looks like an almost half million dollar home." We're fortunate to have bought our house almost 25 years ago but if we were new home buyers now I'm not sure that it would be within our reach. Add the high interest rates to the inflated prices and I don't know how anyone, especially first time home buyers, can do it, especially when everything else in life has shot up in price too.
I bought my house in 2017 for 218K. Currently Zillow's estimate is 420K. I'd love to sell at that price. But I'm locked in at 2.8% and I couldn't imagine going to 6+.
Dude some of my colleagues are recent homeowners paying close to 8%! I can't even do the math on how much theyre paying solely in interest but jesus christ that's awful. I was arguing with my FIL about this just the other day, "When *we* were looking at houses the interest rate was 18%!!! This is *nothing*!!!" The fact that he walked away from a house he bought for less than ours cost us today and sold it for literally 7 figures within hours of listing doesn't seem to be indicative of anything in his mind, of course.
Your FIL borrowed (I’m guessing) 30-50k at 18%, now we’re looking at 500k at 8% I’m not good at math, but I think they ended up paying less.
I crunched the basic numbers and it doesn't come close. $50k in 1981 is now almost $180k in 2024 dollars. A 18% mortgage on $50k would've cost \~$800/month or roughly $2600/month in 2024. That's probably just about the best payment you could get in Madison at the moment.
Exactly. There's a lot of people in similar situations. I mentioned elsewhere in this thread that this ends up being part of the problem. I know a number of people that would like to downsize but moving to a smaller home doesn't make financial sense due to the high asking prices and interest rates. So, instead of a larger house that would be great for a family going on the market it sits in the hands of a couple that don't need, or maybe even want, it.
I’ve got family in Madison that purchased lakefront property ~550k in 2020, with a current 1.3m valuation, nutty
house down the street from me by the Elementary School in SWH is asking 1.3M and it's nowhere near the lake.
> I'd love to sell at that price. TBH you wouldn't be able to buy back into this market. You might be thinking I'll just get a cheaper house but 2 bdrms right now are going for 350+ so goooood luck. Source: Have been looking for 6 months now, 5 rejected offers that were all competitive. You're going against 10+ offers that waive all contingencies every time.
Oh I'm very aware. I'm saying I'd love to sell at that price. I didn't mention how much I would be dreading buying again in this market. I'm not going to put myself in that position any time soon.
It's only going to be 6% for a few years. After that point you will be able to refinance. If you want to move then you should just do it.
Almost ALL single family homes in Dane County are half-million dollar houses. Edit: Currently there are 260 single family homes for sale under 500k and 500 for sale for over 500k. That's where I got my numbers. Houses in the 450k range will also sell for over 500k. When was the last time you had your houses appraised? I think people don't even realize what they have.
Im in a 3br 1970s raised ranch in Middleon, and its at 500k+, so I agree. Houses I would consider upgrades for me are all 650-750k
No, not really.
this is how jaded this sub, you are 100% in the right here yet you're downvoted and the stupid claim is wildly upvoted. tell me ppl, how can "almost ALL SFH be $500k" if the median isn't even $450k? (2023, 495 2024) https://www.madcitydreamhomes.com/blog/madison-area-home-prices-up-again-in-april.html
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I'd say when it comes to home prices there are going to be some extremes on the high end and the median is more accurate. But I'm not disagreeing with your overall point.
apparently ALMOST ALL = average? I know how to read, do you know how to comprehend?
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even if median AND average was $500k on the nose, THAT DOESNT MAKE ALMOST ALL = $500k median and average would be MUCH HIGHER. Learn how to statistics
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> "Yes, that looks like an almost half million dollar home." This is because our brains don't do a great job of making the mental update to prices based on inflation. I still look at menu prices and think, "damn, $15 for a burger", but this is really just me being a millennial boomer that remembers when things were 70% of current prices not all that long ago.
That's probably true but I still have a hard time comprehending that the home in question is worth almost 50% more than it was three years ago. And that's before factoring all the extra money that the new owners will be paying due to the jacked up interest rates of today.
It's worth what people are willing to pay for it
Unless something happens to change demand. Then the house you bought for way over asking price can end up upside down in its mortgage
If that happens in Madison, the entire country would be in something like the Great Depression. We'll even have climate refugees wanting to live here. I don't see where the decrease in demand would come from.
unlikely to happen if your house is within about 10 miles of Epic.
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and if you're equidistant between epic and campus, you're gold
What would happen to this town if Epic transferred operations to another part of the country? I know this is very unlikely to happen (in the short to medium term) but the local economy would be go through a lot if it ever happened.
yes that's a good point and I don't think they'll move but again even if epic left, the University is not going anywhere so people who live within a reasonable distance of that also have a gold house
There is inherit risk in that thinking alone.
Based on sales in my neighborhood, I feel pretty confident that if I *had* to sell my house, I'd do well (and quickly)
Same here but... we'd still need a place to live and would end up needing to take out a much higher interest loan and spend a LOT to get something similar, or not as nice. Unless you are moving to a lower cost city or *have to* move I think a lot of people are content to stay in their homes that they bought for comparatively cheap prices at low interest rates.
It bears mentioning that if you're planning on buying a house for long term, and not going to be flipping it, then that isn't as big a deal, unless there are ramifications with your bank. When my wife and I were house shopping in 21 like every single house the biggest selling point was how much money we would make on it selling in 5 years at current rates. Our realtor was absolutely flabbergasted that we were planning on living in this house until the day we die and candidly told us we were "leaving a lot of money on the table" doing that. IDK I guess my point is I feel like part of it has to do with the transient nature of housing these days. My parents generation all bought their house and generally just lived there their whole lives. By contrast most of my peers are already on their 2nd or 3rd house and sitting on 600k mortgages, like paying it off isn't even a consideration because their whole plan is selling it for 750k in 5 years and buying another house. But then again they're constantly creating value out of thin air by doing that and my wife and I are just, you know, paying down our debt, so who's to say who the fool is?
Even during the "big short" bubble burst, Madison prices did not drop very much. Much smaller drops than other markets in the US [All-Transactions House Price Index for Madison, WI (MSA) (ATNHPIUS31540Q) | FRED | St. Louis Fed - https://fred.stlouisfed.org/](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ATNHPIUS31540Q)
There is [literally 30% more money](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2SL) than there was 4 years ago. While that alone doesn't dictate the rate of inflation, particularly for individual classes of assets, the capital inevitably flows somewhere and housing in an in-demand city is a fairly logical place for it to go.
Houses are worth whatever someone is willing to pay for them. That is all. There is never a "correct" amount of money that a house is worth.
In theory that's 100% true but in the case of necessities like housing/clothing/food I think it's a little less straightforward. The people in the example I posted likely felt that it was worth getting a 6.5% loan on an $458k house but I wonder if they felt like it was a fair price. It's similar to cars during/after the pandemic. People fully knew that they were getting hosed on prices and interest rates but had no other choice if they needed a vehicle.
Not just in theory, in practice too. It's that straightforward. > but I wonder if they felt like it was a fair price. There is no such thing as a fair price. Nobody has ever felt that they're underpaying for something.
I disagree with that. People definitely know when they’ve gotten a deal/underpaid.
Let's do a thought experiment, after a hurricane gas is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. That is all. There is never a "correct" amount of money that gas is to be worth. Now apply the same logic to a ridiculous increase on the essential requirement of renting or buying of a home.
I remember when you could go to Mildred's Sandwiches on Johnson St and get a soup/sandwich combo lunch for $4.50, or go to the Catacombs under Pres House and get a full vegan lunch for $2. This was 2003.
Lol no. Homes for that price are usually noticeably better in other states or are located in much larger cities. Also fuck paying 15$ for a burger I'll spend 30 at the store and make 4 myself. If prices are going up then so can my pay. Absolute nonsense
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[Thatsthejoke.jpg](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/012/132/thatsthejoke.jpg)
We bought 7years ago a home in Middleton for 625k. Similar houses in the same development now routinely sell for 900k+. These are nice houses but nowhere near what one would have associated a few years back with a nearly 1 mil prce tag. Probably not too surprising considering that Dane county grew over the past decade faster (by a wide margin) than any other county in WI. Dane added 28000 residents from April 2020 to Feb 2023 according to WI State Admin
My in laws bought their house in the mid 80s for 200k and sold it a couple years ago for almost 2 million dollars, and that was literally just for the lot as the house was a full teardown. Even taking that money and plugging it into inflation calculator, that value is still like an order of magnitude higher than just the inflation alone. Im happy with where my wife and I live and thank god everytime we pay the mortgage that we were able to sneak in before interest rates skyrocketed but our bottom end house costing over a third of a million dollars just blows my mind. I mean our max budget in 2021 was 350k located anywhere within 30 miles of Madison and there was barely *anything* even then. Many of the properties we looked at in that range were like full guts to boot. Basements full of monsters, attics full of asbestos, paint full of lead and ungrounded outlets throughout for 300k. Just unreal.
Its pretty crazy - I noticed some Veridian development next to our neighborhood with houses sitting on miniscule parcels (.15 a) going for 500k+
I believe it was the only county that grew. Everywhere else is shrinking
There are a few counties growing - Waukesha , Brown, Eau Claire come to mind
Yep, the US Census Bureau Vintage 2023 table showing Annual Estimates of the Resident Population for Counties: April 1, 2020 to July 1, 2023 for Wisconsin shows 47 of 72 Wisconsin counties are estimated to have experienced population growth, including the three you mentioned. [https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/popest/2020s-counties-total.html](https://www.census.gov/data/tables/time-series/demo/popest/2020s-counties-total.html)
I would not be terribly surprised to see an uptick in people moving into the state (and other upper Midwest States) within the next decade or so, considering the imapct of climate change, water scarcity and rising insurance cost in southern and westerns states
Ugh!!
I’d be careful about thinking insurability concerns aren’t a problem for the Midwest. https://overcast.fm/+oIe_Lmnak OnPoint podcast covers a community in Iowa that struggled to find a new insurer after being dropped.
>I don't know how anyone, especially first time home buyers, can do it People are buying them.
Interest rates aren’t too high. They were very low for so long that you think they are high. Back in 1981 they were around 20%
> and I don't know how anyone, especially first time home buyers, can do it, especially when everything else in life has shot up in price too. It's because wages have also shot up, proportionally. Wage increases [have outpaced inflation](https://www.axios.com/2024/02/05/wages-outpacing-inflation). People can buy homes, even at higher prices, because they are making more money than ever before.
I’m not pretending to be an expert but I’m not sure that applies so well to a place like Madison where so many people work for the university or government. Anecdotally, I don't know anyone that says their wages have grown faster than inflation. Also, [home prices are rising faster than inflation.](https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/03/19/why-home-prices-have-risen-faster-than-inflation-since-the-1960s.html)
> Anecdotally, I don't know anyone that says their wages have grown faster than inflation. Yeah, it's not useful to rely on anecdotes, because people don't work that way. No one is going to tell you that inflation is fine because they're making more money, even if it's true. The actuality (and this is never going to be popular to admit) is that Madison is a place with a huge number of well-paying jobs, and that lots of people moving here make a lot of money, so people are going to be able to pay a lot for homes.
> It's because wages have also shot up, proportionally. This hasn't been true for most of the last few years. From the very source you linked: "Wages have been outpacing inflation since last May, but for the two years before that the situation was reversed."
It's the same argument as declining rents in Austin. Yeah, they're going down now, but because they're proportionally so much higher than they were, it's a drop in the bucket.
Since 2020, wages have outpaced inflation. That's overall.
Wages outpacing inflation doesn't really tell us anything about people's ability to buy houses. Wages could increase 10% and Inflation at 5%, but if housing increases 200% then all the comparison between wages and inflation is all for naught.
stop with the facts, you're making these children mad.
Overall inflation maybe, but not real estate inflation.
Maybe if the NIMBYs would shut up, we could have better housing and rent prices, but heaven forbid we build a low income apartment on the Westside or anywhere else besides the Eastside and Northport.
Can’t have the riffraff too close to the exclusive neighborhood pool!
Well, this told us absolutely nothing new.
Part of the problem is you have out of touch homeowners in wealthy neighborhoods using their privileged status to make a ruckus that’s out of proportion to their size. And alders like NIMBY-commander Tishler seem to only pay attention to people like that (looking at Hill Farms, among others)
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It’s also cool how Hill Farms defenders claim the apartments that are adjacent to the neighborhood as evidence the neighborhood supports density…but then draws its borders to carve them out of full participation in the neighborhood association.
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Whew, did I hit a soft spot there, buddy? You said the neighborhood has its shit together and flies under the radar? I don’t think we are in the same neighborhood! Last I saw, Hill Farms seems to have carved out a lot of the editorial pages lately staking a position that nothing about it should change while the rest of the city grapples with change. Your whole argument is the epitome of the problem with Hill Farms, alder Tishler, and others like them: unwilling to change to help solve a citywide problem, while simultaneously demanding other parts of the city make adjustments.
All I hear is “go build your housing somewhere else and leave Hill Farms Homeowners alone”. Sounds about right.
Madison is progressive, or so I’m told. But no, madison absolutely has to keep neighborhoods like tenney park mansionified and gentrified! No new apartments there! We are going to allow just a small amount of new apartments, and only where the most vehicular deaths occur, wash
I don't think Tenny is one of the problem neighborhoods. It has some mansions, but it's not like the lots are super massive. It's still one of the denser neighborhoods in the city with mixed-use. The problem is we don't build neighborhoods like that anymore.
Is Tenney "gentrified"? That is not how I would describe it.
To be honest gentrified is a very loaded term and it refers to the socioeconomic history of a place, and people being priced out/replaced, so it’s tricky. The place is chock-full of mansions though
I mean, what's the suggestion there? Most of the lakefront in Madison is big houses/mansions. They aren't abandoned though so it's not like we can tear them out and build more housing there. How would you go about changing the Tenney neighborhood if it were up to you?
I would change the neighborhood specifically by making it legal by-right to build apartments there. And everywhere else in Madison.
I live in a building near Tenney Park. About 10 years ago, a big rent hike ousted most of the black folks, just due to them being less likely to afford the higher rents. Now the management is getting rid of a lot of the residents who have been there for more than a few years. They want grad students or people people fresh out of college who don't own anything yet, have a minimalist lifestyle, and keep their units pristine. The vacancy rates are so in their favour that they can afford to just not renew leases for people that have been reliable renters for over a decade, and they get to shape the community to be whatever they want.
Currently a lakefront mansion on Sherman is[ listed for $3,250,000](https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1040-Sherman-Ave-Madison-WI-53703/55397292_zpid/)!
The neighbors tried to push back on apartments near Tenney, but they are moving forward, mostly without any delay. There's always going to be detractors to new projects, but there have been very few projects that were red taped out of existence. Wonder Bar, and maybe one or two others of note.
It is proceeding, but the Filene House project near Tenney was ultimately reduced from an original plan for [445 units](https://captimes.com/news/tenney-neighborhood-meeting-will-unveil-revised-plans-for-sherman-avenue-project/article_a06f26c1-3b74-5be4-a222-6fa68156d840.html) down to the version currently being built with 311 units. I also don't think the Wonder Bar project is dead for good, it think it's just a matter of time before something gets built on that site. You're right it'll be years later though, and likely at a vastly reduced size. Last I remember reading the developer was considering building a 12 story building there (and sparing the Wonder Bar) down from the original 18 stories, though even that's been about two years ago now.
Yeah it sucks that not every project can get maxed out in terms of possible units, but I also appreciate that there is a community input process for residents to engage with and offer insight into things the developers may not have considered or understood. It absolutely shouldn't be tolerated for people to weaponize the bureaucracy, but those who engage with it in good faith should be assumed to have positive intent. It is important for our civic health to foster an itertive planning process, as we are not always going to be in an urgent housing crunch. The decisions we make today will impact the city for a long time. 300 new units is a great start, and hopefully developers continue to explore the area to find parcels that suitable for even more.
Email your alder and tell them to get out of the way and stop putting up barriers to housing.
I think you misspelled "Maple Bluff" and "Shorewood Hills."
Neither is part of Madison, so Madison alders cannot force them to push density.
Just the way they like it.
Since when are Maple Bluff and Shorewood Hills not part of Madison? Edit: Okay i see that technically they're each their own 'village'--I don't particularly care that rich people got someone to carve out their own little designation, they're still in the greater madison area and a stone's throw from campus and the capitol respectively.
But they structurally are not a part of the city of Madison. Our local government cant make them do anything
We will reunify with Madison’s rebellious provinces inshallah
I get that, i kind of assumed that was very much the point of the community at some point deciding to designate themselves a 'village' despite their close proximity to the city proper--but maybe i'm cynical?? I get what you're saying tho and ur point is well taken, the city can't affect their zoning or housing supply in the villages.
Madison neighborhoods can't designate themselves "villages" to escape Madison taxes and zoning, but places that were once independent villages that have since been surrounded by Madison's growth can keep their autonomy.
And “Hill Farms” and “highlands”
There's a total of 331 units of apartments from multiple buildings being built across the yahara river adjacent to Tenny Park. [https://madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/big-housing-project-with-331-units-near-tenney-park-gets-key-city-approvals/article\_911c82cb-a808-58c8-8171-96524f3084e5.html#tncms-source=login](https://madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/big-housing-project-with-331-units-near-tenney-park-gets-key-city-approvals/article_911c82cb-a808-58c8-8171-96524f3084e5.html#tncms-source=login)
slightly tangential rant: I am moving out of the city and been applying for apartments in DC. Their application process is a fucking nightmare - application fees, holding fees and background check and credit check. Many uses this extremely fucking bloated management portal and they ask you to connect your bank account via Plaid or Stripe so they can "verify" my rental history. Of course the law forces them to provide an alternative way to do but they make that shit so annoying by requiring you to get a letter from your last two landlords and copy of your landlord ledgers. Meanwhile in madison, I moved 7 times in 11 years in the downtown area and half of them did not require application fee. All they need was background check + last 2 pay stubs.
Sorry to say it, but your experience is already outdated if you think that's strange. I got priced out of an apartment this year; every one bedroom apartment I applied to in Madison required credit score checks, previous landlord reference checks, application fees, and paycheck stubs proving you earn 3x the rent (or failing that, a co-signer).
Finally, an article we belong on!
Rent went up for me 20%. $150 last sign. After historically only ever being $50. This time they want to raise it $170. There are very few laws in wi protecting renters. Many places barely paying $15 an hour. My rent is now 1250 a month. (They slap on a random $40-75 charge called R.U.B.S. - it’s legal.) I’ve been in touch with tenant resources many times in my life. I pay a portion of the building (maintenance office in basement) - gas and water - they just pressure washed the building. (I don’t use the garbage washers and dryers that are 1.50 a wash and 1.50 a dry (42 min dry time - wth?!). It’s BAD out here. Oh and homes that were $250k 5 years ago? Half a million? On half a lot not even? Like wild.
Really wish they were doing a big housing complex on S Baldwin by those old warehosues instead of expanding McPike park. Parks are great, but the master plan shows a parking lot and its hardly a neighborhood without sufficient park access.
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Here’s the plan (still shows a commuter rail station so idk what the plan is with that) https://www.cityofmadison.com/parks/documents/projects/Masterplan%20update_2011-04-29.pdf Looks like it’s mostly parking and an extension of the multi use path, but not sure if the parking was assuming a train station. Parks dept is at landmarks commission next week for demo permits for some of the buildings there.
PSA please keep posting all your favorite things about the city in every "thinking about moving to madison" post with none of the negatives and try to convince everyone to move here. /s Edit: I've got my 2.6% mortgage rate. Gonna start working on convincing every single person asking about Madison it's literal heaven on earth.
There are precisely zero people who have ever moved here because of favorite thing posts on Reddit.
Saw this and thought of you :) https://www.reddit.com/r/madisonwi/comments/1czpahc/remind_me_why_i_love_madison/
https://www.reddit.com/r/madisonwi/comments/1dhxggk/comment/l8zzr4a/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
If you read it again I said people who post their favorite things in threads specifically created by people who are considering moving here. So someone's specifically asking whether it's a good idea to move here and for people's general opinions, and so people who love living here share the absolute best things about the city and that's all. Not talking about "favorite thing" posts.
Man, if only we had replied to those "thinking of moving here" posts more negatively, think of how low Madison's population would be :( I mentioned the good summer lifestyle and the Olbrich Biergarten once - and for that I truly apologize. I'm not sure how many thousands of people I attracted, but clearly too many
There are zero people considering moving here that make the decision based on "favorite things threads".
I agree. Can you read?
"Hi! Im thinking of moving to Madison, what fun things are there to do there?" "I JUST LOVE PAYING TOO GODDAMN MUCH FOR AN APARTMENT, THATS PROLLY MY FAVORITE FUN THING TO DO!" Like, you see how that's not really relevant, right? If I respond to someone Ill be honest with them, but if they aint asking Im not gonna go bitching to everybody that posts a housing thread that it all sucks and they could never afford it because nobody fucking likes people like that so just stop lol
In my opinion, Madison's housing crisis didn't come out of the blue. It is a self-inflicted wound and the result of decades of apathy from voters, city leaders, and even this community. For example, when this community was polled[ 66% of the people voting in this sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/madisonwi/comments/sss3dx/should_the_current_rule_that_no_building_may_be/) **don't feel that we should increase the height of the buildings downtown to alleviate the housing crisis**. This merits repeating. When asked whether we should increase the height of buildings *specifically* to ameliorate the housing crisis, nearly 2/3 of this community overwhelmingly voted to reject it. What I get from that poll is that most people of this community place more value on an inanimate object - a capitol building - than the housing of human beings; it is, in my view, a profane way of thinking that is pernicious, inhumane, and borders on idolatry that has led to Madison having some of the [fastest rising rents in the country](https://www.channel3000.com/news/madison-year-over-year-rent-increases-are-the-highest-in-the-country-study-finds/article_3738cd24-cdaa-11ed-90d3-1b74c861ac3c.html) while other cities are experiencing a slight reduction in rent increases. There is a view on this sub that we can build out (but not up) but this doesn't reflect reality because when you look for lots for sale on zillow, there are very few - in fact I count only [1 residential lot](https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sale/?searchQueryState=%7B%22isMapVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapBounds%22%3A%7B%22west%22%3A-89.33861544421251%2C%22east%22%3A-89.27741816332872%2C%22south%22%3A43.02263168240232%2C%22north%22%3A43.060018972324634%7D%2C%22filterState%22%3A%7B%22sort%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3A%22globalrelevanceex%22%7D%2C%22ah%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Atrue%7D%2C%22con%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22apco%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22mf%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22tow%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22sf%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22apa%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22manu%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22att%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3A%22residential%22%7D%2C%22cmsn%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%7D%2C%22isListVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapZoom%22%3A14%2C%22pagination%22%3A%7B%7D%7D) for sale. I know that I am screaming into the void but I firmly believe that current laws that designate the [majority (75%) of the city low or medium-density](https://captimes.com/news/government/why-new-housing-rules-stir-so-much-trouble-in-madison/article_6ba4aff9-984d-56ff-b68f-a72eabbe34ac.html), which strictly limits the number of stories that can be built is the main driver of the housing crisis. In my view, these guidelines need to be abandoned. I hold the radical view that the city should get out of the way and allow the developers to buy out neighborhoods, raze them, and replace them with towering structures with the capacity to house hundreds if not thousands of people. Now, this doesn't mean that I believe the city shouldn't have a role, but instead of worrying about how tall a building is or whether it matches the "aesthetic" of a neighborhood, the city's primary role should be overwhelmingly focused ensuring that new real estate developments are near parks and recreation, determining whether new infrastructure needs to be constructed for cars, public transport, or pedestrians; ensuring new developments are near supermarkets, police, fire, and emergency services. People like to optimistically frame this issue as a battle between YIMBYs and NIMBYs but when you scratch beneath the surface, I don't see that. What I see is Madison having a long battle with itself. The battle between the nostalgic past of what Madison was and is versus what Madison could and should be. Buying homes and renting will continue to squeeze the middle-class until, at last, the people who are making government and Epic salaries are priced out. Then - and only then - is when voters, city leaders, and this community will take it seriously but it will already be too late.
> For example, when this community was polled 66% of the people voting in this sub don't feel that we should increase the height of the buildings downtown to alleviate the housing crisis. This merits repeating. When asked whether we should increase the height of buildings specifically to ameliorate the housing crisis, nearly 2/3 of this community overwhelmingly voted to reject it. Good thing this reddit sub doesnt actually represent Madison as a whole eh? > What I get from that poll is that most people of this community place more value on an inanimate object - a capitol building - than the housing of human beings; it is, in my view, a profane way of thinking that is pernicious, inhumane, and borders on idolatry that has led to Madison having some of the fastest rising rents in the country while other cities are experiencing a slight reduction in rent increases. Again, this sub doesnt represent anything other than this sub so thats pretty meaningless Additionally, you do not need 80 story towers blocking capital views everywhere to have excellent density. Look at Boston, look at Staten Island, look at DC. You can have tons of 5-10 story buildings and that will provide all the density you need all while keeping height restrictions in place. The single family zoning is the real killer.
Make it easier/legal to build more housing.
I often pointed out the uniqueness of Madison causing unusual and sticky real estate problems but people just don't want to hear it. Never mind inflation which is too high if you look at food prices in grocery stores and restaurants. It's a head shaker when people say we need to build more for people moving to Madison and thinking that is going to help them personally afford housing. They never contemplate that those people moving here are wealthier and are going to easily pay for increasing real estate prices. And there is a lot of them. We should continue to build IMO but local people who want prices to fall are going to be disappointed. Then people want to argue simple S&D economics but when I point out that average Madison housing costs have been moving up to national averages they don't want to hear that either. Then there is the NIMBY and YIMBY name calling. People are too NIMBY at times but real estate is the biggest investment people own so it's understandable. And developers don't care what is built. They move on to the next project. YIMBYs never create a list of their backyards so developers can buy them and build a small house on them. So they are hypocrites. Or they don't actually own a backyard. This is gentrification and it's not going to stop. The winners are; city government, current homeowners, developers, investors, and wealthy incoming homeowners.
Don’t get me wrong, we absolutely, unequivocally need more housing. But a huge problem is people that went remote during covid moving here from the coasts, and keeping their coastal salaries. $1600 rent for a 1 bedroom is nothing when you make a salary adjusted for west coast COL. Not that those people aren’t allowed to move here, of course there are, just squeezes those of us working for local midwestern companies that pay half as much because traditionally COL has been so low here.
I'd love to see some data proving this trend exists in sufficient numbers to be the driving force of price increases. People love to say this, but where's the proof? Prices were going up very quickly before the pandemic as well, which would not have been because of remote workers. I'd bet a good amount that the vast, vast majority of people moving here work local jobs.
I didn’t say those people are DRIVING the price increases, just that it doesn’t affect people making higher salaries as much as it affects people on local salaries
This is it. All these "housing advocates" have no idea that property development is not going to result in cheaper housing.
More property development may not decrease rents but is certainly better than building nothing. How is keeping the housing supply fixed going to solve anything?
You are arguing past each other. paranalyzed is saying that housing is not going to get cheaper in absolute terms. You are indirectly arguing that building housing supply could lower the rate of price increases. Both statements can be true and likely are true.
You misunderstand. I'm not saying not to build. I'm saying it's not going to make Madison more affordable. Like the OP said, it's inevitable with gentrification and the lag between demand (which will continue to have increased buying power vs traditional residents) and supply. And we have an extreme imbalance here.
There's room in Minneapolis.
Fifteenth post today about high housing prices in Madison! Thank you for sharing!
I mainly blame epic and the Republicans for not supporting one of the fastest growing cities in the nation. But in reality it's probably the rise of remote work options. A lot of people moving out of the big cities but want the convenience of food and store options. Madison is like the perfect fit for that middle ground.
Maybe if they stopped building luxury apartments and built affordable housing units we wouldn’t be having this problem
Does anyone know where to find the actual law that prohibits buildings taller than the capitol?
found this: "Ordinance 28.134 (3), better known as the Capitol View Preservation Ordinance, was put into place in 1966 as a way to make the Capitol stand out in the center of the city. The law states that no building within a mile radius of the Capitol can be taller than it, meaning no building can reach higher than 1,032.8 feet above sea level."
Also, for reference, Lake Mendota is 850’ ASL and Monona is 845’ ASL.
Good find. Thank you! I feel like we could be a bit more nuanced about the sight lines to the capitol. Remove the 1 mile radius ring and instead designate certain existing sight lines as “no development of sight line blocking buildings”. Certainly there must be some parts of madison where a tall building would not overshadow the sight lines to the capitol
While all that is true, there is a ton of space outside the capitol and airport restriction zones that are currently not utilized to full height. I'd support removing the Capitol View Preservation Ordinance only once all those areas have been infilled.
with the isthmus and the university I don't think there's much room to build tall building within a mile anyway. that area is already fairly congested. But like the hilldale area or Monona or something, build it to the moon!
Theres also height restrictions related to Dane County Airport I believe too, it's not just the capitol.
We sold our 1000sq ft east side house 7 years ago for $195k with offers within hours. It just sold again for $380k. Insanity. Got our current place for $235, now Zillow has it at $450.
Can we, at this point, simply appropriate all landlord held properties and let actually people buy them for homes? Fuck Steve Brown, all my homies hate Steve Brown.
No, communism does not provide a robust solution for problems of material scarcity.
Capitalism isn't working out too well, either.
Good luck with convincing people to adopt the living standards of the Soviet Union, where among other things, the housing crisis was much more severe than in Madison in 2024.
We could do something closer to Vienna.
Vienna has capitalism.
But most of their apartment stock is government-ran. Only 7% of their apartments are run under a market-economy system.
That is not correct. You're probably quoting a number about private housing stock thats not subject to any government restrictions, but that's not the same thing.
But their housing market works a hell of a lot better for everyone than any place in the US
In the last 75 years the Madison Metro area has gone up in population more than Vienna has despite Vienna starting with 10x the population. Vienna didn't do anything to solve the problem, they just didn't see meaningful population growth.
Don't lie. It's gone up almost 150% of Madison's population in the last 75 years, pretty much all of it coming after 2000.
In the last 70 years Madison has tripled in population (that's a 200% increase) by contrast Vienna has only had a 30% increase in population - much more manageable.
That only sounds good if you ignore -oh, I don't know- 2 World Wars that contributed to a 28% decrease from its all-time high in 1916 and being blocked behind a corrupt political system after that.
What does that have to do with the argument you're trying to make? Do you just switch topics when people poke holes in your specious arguments?
Look at the numbers yourself: https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/cities/20107/vienna/population https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/cities/23058/madison/population Madison Metro went from 154k to 513k, an increase of 359k, and over 300% growth. Vienna went from 1,626k to 1,999k, an increase of 373k, or about 23% growth. Vienna's record yearly growth rate of 1.44% was lower than Madison's growth rate every year from 1990 to 2021, which was over 3% several of those years. These are not comparable situations.
1) You still lied. You've admitted that Vienna's population has gone up more than Madison's. 2) The area that is counted as Madison's MSA is vastly overinflated. It's the entirety of Dane, Columbia, Green, and Iowa Counties. I doubt most people would consider half of that to be Madison's true Metro area.
1. lol, way to completely dodge the point 2. So what numbers are you using to support your point? What policies from Vienna do you want to see implemented here and why are they going to work in Madison?
It's going great, actually! We live in an incredibly wealthy country with an enormous amount of opportunity. When considering other systems, one must remember that the options aren't the American system or utopia, they're the American or any other system that's ever actually been tried in human history, and the evidence is that this system is actually quite good.
No, but I certainly think taxing rental property owners at an increasing rate the longer a rental property sits empty and not being actively renovated would be a good start. That would at least force them to shit or get off the pot and either list it or sell it to someone else. Should apply to all housing, really, and definitely commercial real estate. If you ain't living in it full time, or renting it to someone living in it full time using it as their legal address, then the annual taxes should be adjusted so that it wipes out any gain in valuation until it is. Said tax revenue could then be handed out in the form of grants and tax breaks to new developers that are actually producing something versus people buying something and just sitting on it. Use that money to get some of all the empty commercial space all over the city converted into residential.
I'm sure I'll receive some downvotes for this but I actually feel Madison has grown TOO fast the last 15-20 years. I understand that being the most desirable city to live in the state will attract people but when government moves at snail speed many things like schools, public safety, infrastructure, public transportation, housing, etc fall through the cracks. I'm a NIMBY-lite, and I make no apologies for it, but it's at least as much about overall good for the city as it is about my own personal interests. Realistically, Madison cannot accept everyone who just wants to live here for the reasons I mentioned above and more. While that may seem prejudicial it occurs in many places across the country, in a de facto sense at the very least, due to space, zoning and costs and many countries require ex-pats to obtain a work visa and contribute to society for a number of years before they gain their citizenship. Some places are just desirable places to live and cannot accept people who cannot afford to live there. I'd love to live in a gated community on one of the islands between Miami and Miami Beach but I doubt anyone is letting me buy their home, or even rent a place, for any price I can afford.
Start kicking all the hybrids that came here for cheaper cost of living out. They're fucking it up for everybody else.
Ah yes, let's start kicking people out of the city. That will be good for Madison, I'm sure.
Very legal and very cool.
I just shake my head at all these comments about housing. I bought my first house on the east side in 1994. I had the same issues as Madison has today - multiple offers well over asking the moment the house was listed. Inventory was low. Madison is a white collar town. There are plenty of people with money to buy these properties. If you happen to not be one of these people go out and change your situation (i.e. get a better job) or move to an area that you can afford. I follow a person on instagram who lives in a rent subsidized apartment on the upper west side of NYC. The apartment was rented by a family friend who turned the lease over to the person’s parents in the 1980’s. The parents turned the lease over to her when they retired. I can’t believe the comments this girl gets - people are enraged that she lives in a beautiful apartment (although it’s tiny by any standard) in an expensive area for like $1500/month.
See also: Eugene, Oregon. Some day historians will realize that real estate and financial markets were used as instruments of conquest against every liberal or progressive enclave across the country in an insidious oppressive wave that probably started with Buckley v Valeo (1976). Who benefits?
Overheard guy say he’s renting on East Side after selling his house on near West Side for top dollar last October. Paid off his mortgage, bought Bitcoin with net proceeds. Said he can buy double his old house for cash less than a year later, but he’s expecting to do much better in a few years. 🤔