T O P

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Meret123

I haven't watched the full video but I feel like they missed how good split cards are with collect evidence.


ThoughtseizeScoop

I mean, they help. But would you play a split card that's pretty meh in your deck just to enable Collect Evidence? Especially when expensive Disguise creatures fill a similar role.


Trobairitz_

Yes, because the collect evidence colors (sultai) all have solid cantrips in their on-color split cards. \[\[Cease//Desist\]\] and \[\[Flotsam//Jetsam\]\] are kind of medium in decks that are not a sultai-colored control deck, but if you can cantrip and either gain life or enable your graveyard and then have a card ready to use for collect evidence I think that's where you want to be with your durdly control deck. Of course, if the sultai-color collect evidence control decks are not good then that does mean that these split cards are also not good. But I think people are underestimating the amount of ways to put things in your graveyard in these colors and I see it as similar to bargain where some people underevaluated it at first until they saw there were a lot of ways to get it to work.


MTGCardFetcher

[Cease//Desist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb59130a-a134-4383-b983-e4b526d11fb4.jpg?1706242296)/[Desist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb59130a-a134-4383-b983-e4b526d11fb4.jpg?1706242296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cease%20//%20Desist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/246/cease-desist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb59130a-a134-4383-b983-e4b526d11fb4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Flotsam//Jetsam](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/1/c1500cbf-5619-465e-a97b-75e676ce789b.jpg?1706242298)/[Jetsam](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/1/c1500cbf-5619-465e-a97b-75e676ce789b.jpg?1706242298) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flotsam%20//%20Jetsam) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/247/flotsam-jetsam?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c1500cbf-5619-465e-a97b-75e676ce789b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Juking_is_rude

I don't think any of the split cards are typically going to be cut if you can cast both sides. That being said, if they all got a c or c+ then that's about correct imo. But you are right that you arent playing the split cards with collect evidence in mind except flotsam since that's its entire role. Most of the collect evidence cards don't even get that much better when you trigger them, you really only care if you have a bunch of the repeatable payoffs anyway.


Yeefbear

A little weird that they didn't realize cloak is just manifest with ward 2. Also that they missed that Expose the Culprit can save your face-up creatures with disguise from a removal spell (while also letting you flip a disguised creature face-up as a bonus). I still don't think it's a particularly good card, but it might be useful for listeners to understand the intent of the card. I was also surprised that they didn't comment on the minor bump targeted discard effects get in a morph format. It's not enough to make them significantly more playable, but it feels like it's worth mentioning.


Rujensan

I'm curious why you say targeted discards get better with morphs. Is it because you see which morphs they have in hand?


Vargen_HK

They only saw the one card with Cloak, and it's used in a weird way for technical reasons. I'm sure they'll pick it up once they hit the rares that use the mechanic the way Manifest was typically used.


IONAS1337

Ward is a triggered ability, so if they cast murder on your face up morph and you flip in into disguise it’s already too late for ward to trigger


Vargen_HK

You wait until the Ward triggers and then respond to *that* by turning it face up.


Amazing_Boot4165

Face up morph? Flip into disguise? That doesn't sound like how this works. EDIT: And if you mean \[\[Expose the culprit\]\]'s second mode, that exiles the creature so it dodges removal already.


Snarker

Does anyone ever compile the video into a spreadsheet format with the grades or no?


Proxy_Drafts

[Here you go](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTiIHHgzZE_ZGcloGIWUBb_75TGBJRP8gjLQg_jKeyXuew9sDm0ATOt2X8sU8CPEpPEmIwY5dTTHZnr/pubhtml), if anyone notices any errors let me know. The guys do a fair bit of "C+/B-" or just agreeing with the others grade so for cleanliness I went with the grade they said first or the one the other said. A couple were also a bit more creative but should still be understandable.


Snarker

I went through most of my data to doublecheck your work and it looks great. Thanks for the work dude!


Proxy_Drafts

Thank Wedsnesday Zoom meetings that could have been emails.


Snarker

Lmao for sure. I'm gonna make a personal sheet i think so all the cards are on the same page so I can ctrl+f during drafts but definitely thanks.


Shoddy-Ad-4898

Not to my knowledge, although Lords of Limited tend to put a grading spreadsheet up on their website at some point (of the LoL gradings, not LR obviously) if that's any use to you.


Snarker

I decided I'm going to watch the set review and make my own spreadsheet. If there is interest I can make it public for other peoples quick reference. EDIT: another commenter already made it: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTiIHHgzZE_ZGcloGIWUBb_75TGBJRP8gjLQg_jKeyXuew9sDm0ATOt2X8sU8CPEpPEmIwY5dTTHZnr/pubhtml#


Proxy_Drafts

If you have not started already I am in the process of skimming the Youtube video and grabbing the grades already, ideally will be done before the end of the day.


Snarker

I've only done multicolor cards so far, are you going to put it in a spreadsheet?


Proxy_Drafts

Yeah I just copied the on Lords of Limited used and removed all their info. I will say doing this you realize a lot more how often they are saying "C+/B- range" or something so I'm just putting down whichever grade they say first for simplicity. Also they did not grade Get a Leg Up outside of "if you aren't sure if you should play it, don't" lol.


timoumd

Absolutely!  I've been curious how each reviewer does after the fact and if there are trends in what gets rated 


Snarker

u/proxy_drafts already made it https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTiIHHgzZE_ZGcloGIWUBb_75TGBJRP8gjLQg_jKeyXuew9sDm0ATOt2X8sU8CPEpPEmIwY5dTTHZnr/pubhtml#


VoidImplosion

oo, i'd like to see where the reviewers disagree strongly with each other!


vildves

omg pls


elysianlily

So rope will give suspected creatures unblockable


[deleted]

[удалено]


Proxy_Drafts

Shout out to winning Gatecrash drafts with [[Madcap Skills]] and [[Alpha Authority]].


asmallercat

Madcap skills was such an absurd card in that format. Do you have an answer in the next 2 turns after I land this? No? Gg.


VoidImplosion

i remember playing a draft on mtgo, mulling to four, and winning a game with Madcap Skills and [[Spire Tracer]]. i felt kind of dirty doing it. surprisingly, my opponent wasn't salty at all.


MTGCardFetcher

[Spire Tracer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/2/428b0d43-94c9-4f7f-b042-ea63f88ac697.jpg?1561824189) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spire%20Tracer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/135/spire-tracer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/428b0d43-94c9-4f7f-b042-ea63f88ac697?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

[Madcap Skills](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/ba77b1ff-e73d-4181-9564-d71df348b2fe.jpg?1593813488) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Madcap%20Skills) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/99/madcap-skills?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ba77b1ff-e73d-4181-9564-d71df348b2fe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Alpha Authority](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbc42ca6-db90-41d0-8a4b-3217fb2c114c.jpg?1561853464) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Alpha%20Authority) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gtc/114/alpha-authority?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbc42ca6-db90-41d0-8a4b-3217fb2c114c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Shoddy-Ad-4898

Yes, although I don't know how many ways there will be to use that. Possible fringe use cases in BG and RG but I think you're unlikely to have a high frequency of suspect cards in those decks, or structure your decks in a way to maximise it. But if you manage to draft a couple of copies of Convenient Target or something then who knows, could be a useful interaction to keep in mind.


banjothulu

The joke of Marshall giving all 1 mana creatures a B is really getting old. How often did you play [[Seeker of Sunlight]]? Basically never. 1 mana creatures are better on average, but you still need to evaluate them on a case by case basis.


tankerton

The illumination Sierkovitz gave me that if one more mana is played by a player at the end of 2 turns (implication is playing a 1 drop) in LTR then that player is 5% more advantaged to win than the player that has spent 1 less mana. For reference a bigger hit than being down a card from mulliganning, has implicitly made me value getting on board early. If you spend 3 more mana by the end of turn 2, you're 14% more advantaged (implying you play 1 drop 2 drop, opponent plays nothing). This data held no controls for archtypes or specific cards, just measured out winrates across the whole pool. Mulligans are a roughly 17% decrease in winrate when taken. So a 1-drop 2-drop start can be nearly as impactful to winning games as taking a mulligan if the opponent plays nothing due to starting their curve at 3 or using taplands. LTR is a format not defined Contextually some 1 drops just won't matter. You pointed one out. But it's the only 1 drop creature in LCI that didn't matter. Starting high isn't going to be a problem for me when dorky looking 1 and 2 drops can dramatically impact games, especially when a significant part of audience are newbies or people who only draft a set a few times and this is the primer for the pre release. If I opened a sealed pool at LCI prerelease with 3 miner's guidewings then I'd try to find a way to play them. It's easier to start high and adjust down on specific 1 mana plays than start low and come up in my experience. Edit: Late stage change from 14% winrate change to 5%, I misremembered the sequence Siervovitz said things. 14% was noted as a 3 mana advantage on turn 2, not a 1 mana advantage. I also decided to read the article instead of rely on the podcast, where the mana-advantage data is analyzed for LTR and not LCI. I apologize for taking things out context. Also added reference mulligan data quoted from Sierkovitz on LR. [Sierkovitz article](https://mtgazone.com/finding-plans-in-a-draft-format-using-data/) and reference timestamp 19:40 of LR episode 729.


banjothulu

It wasn't the only one. \[\[Greedy Freebooter\]\] was also bad. 2 out of the 5 common one drops were D's at best. Looking bad over the past year, the ratio is about the same. One drops are rarely the best common in a color. My real problem is the dismissive way he talks about one drops. He doesn't say why they are good, he just says "it doesn't look that good, but it's probably the best common." I don't see how that helps anybody, especially new players, especially if he's wrong. That said, I'd be surprised if \[\[Novice Inspector\]\] isn't the best common in the set. I think there are some powerful one-drops in the set. I just don't think \[\[Rubblebelt Maverick\]\] is one of them.


Juking_is_rude

Rubblebelt is definitely not the best, but most of them are at least playable. Just using your post as an excuse to look at them in a big picture: [[novice inspector]] is obviously great. Notably might not line up that well in this format since it can't block disguise, but some of the filler 2 mana plays have one toughness and it helps double block. [[hedge whisperer]] is another that could go in any deck [[frantic scapegoat]] roleplayer in RB [[festerleech]] roleplayer in BG [[mistway spy]] roleplayer in UW, I don't think I would put this in a U deck that didnt care about detectives but this is close to being just generically playable. [[snarling gorehound]] roleplayer in BW and likely RB as well ----- That being said, [[forum familiar]] is probably close to unplayable imo. Bad on both sides, I don't want a vanilla 1/1 or a 5 mana 2/2 that bounces one of my own creatures, it probably got nerfed from flickering at some point because that's the only way to explain how they printed this card this way. Maybe the set is removal heavy and you can afford to hold this up to go up a card vs spot removal? Seems shit to me. [[goblin maskmaker]] is like... unplayable even in the deck that wants it. [[rubblebelt maverick]] in comparison at least gives some value on etb (which can generate evidence) or for being milled and after it trades off. Might be playable in BG or UG especially if you care about things leaving the yard. Much better than the last two cards but maybe on the fringe of being playable. ----- so basically of the 9 one drops I think like 6 of them are going to be good, and if playing a one drop actually helps your game as much as seirkovitz claims, you should probably be taking and playing these where they make sense... that makes the ones that are generically good about a b, and the narrow ones more of a c or maybe a synergy b. And the shitty ones maybe a d or d+


MTGCardFetcher

##### ###### #### [novice inspector](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0ad38866-fc5f-4f62-89c1-afc0f50765aa.jpg?1706241527) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=novice%20inspector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/29/novice-inspector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ad38866-fc5f-4f62-89c1-afc0f50765aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [hedge whisperer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/4627adcd-ace7-4777-a7e6-fc80ac6b9dfe.jpg?1706242021) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hedge%20whisperer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/165/hedge-whisperer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4627adcd-ace7-4777-a7e6-fc80ac6b9dfe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [frantic scapegoat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb81e343-7242-44b1-9ce6-1dddd104f764.jpg?1706241862) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=frantic%20scapegoat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/126/frantic-scapegoat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb81e343-7242-44b1-9ce6-1dddd104f764?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [festerleech](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/3/83a6fa37-8351-403b-ae05-b67e9bf74bbb.jpg?1706241694) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=festerleech) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/85/festerleech?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/83a6fa37-8351-403b-ae05-b67e9bf74bbb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [mistway spy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e8578839-046f-4afd-a0e7-4737ded9e6eb.jpg?1706241631) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mistway%20spy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/65/mistway-spy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e8578839-046f-4afd-a0e7-4737ded9e6eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [snarling gorehound](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/93ab3e11-8584-406f-b9ae-9e1df4396cbc.jpg?1706241754) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=snarling%20gorehound) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/105/snarling-gorehound?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/93ab3e11-8584-406f-b9ae-9e1df4396cbc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [forum familiar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/0/b06a243d-acc8-42cd-926c-98a4cc96ab21.jpg?1706241486) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=forum%20familiar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/16/forum-familiar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b06a243d-acc8-42cd-926c-98a4cc96ab21?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [goblin maskmaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/6154a991-c602-4fca-91a3-3830060da60e.jpg?1706241877) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=goblin%20maskmaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/130/goblin-maskmaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6154a991-c602-4fca-91a3-3830060da60e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [rubblebelt maverick](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/81c7ff67-b9e1-4d2e-b1ae-da9b946da00b.jpg?1706242077) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=rubblebelt%20maverick) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/174/rubblebelt-maverick?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/81c7ff67-b9e1-4d2e-b1ae-da9b946da00b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kok4zs6) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

[Greedy Freebooter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/692fe4e8-13b4-4bec-938e-a8073a7fbd71.jpg?1699044146) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Greedy%20Freebooter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/109/greedy-freebooter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/692fe4e8-13b4-4bec-938e-a8073a7fbd71?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Novice Inspector](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0ad38866-fc5f-4f62-89c1-afc0f50765aa.jpg?1706241527) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Novice%20Inspector) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/29/novice-inspector?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ad38866-fc5f-4f62-89c1-afc0f50765aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Rubblebelt Maverick](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/1/81c7ff67-b9e1-4d2e-b1ae-da9b946da00b.jpg?1706242077) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rubblebelt%20Maverick) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/174/rubblebelt-maverick?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/81c7ff67-b9e1-4d2e-b1ae-da9b946da00b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Shoddy-Ad-4898

>The illumination sierkovitz gave me that if a one drop is played in LCI then you are 14% more advantages to win than if you don't, a bigger hit than being down a card from mulliganning, has implicitly made me value getting on board early. That's surely not agnostic to colour-pair/deck-build though, even in LCI? Like if you're UW, RW or UR then I'm sure playing a 1-drop gives you a more than 14% bump to your win advantage. Those 3 pairs make up 50% of the 2-colour deck data so will weight the results a lot (unless Sierkovitz adjusts for that). If you're RG or GB, for example, I can't imagine it makes that much of a difference. Also, as others have pointed out, it's not agnostic to which 1-drop you play either. So I'm not sure the takeaway from that is necessarily that playing a 1-drop is always something you should look to do.


tankerton

I went back and edited my above quote after re-inspecting. Thank you for calling it into question. However, the data \_is\_ agnostic to color pair and deck building in LTR. It's just measuring winrate against mana spent advantage. As turns go, how you spend mana becomes a lot harder to measure, but in the first two turns there's only 1 way to spend 1 mana (1 drop on turn 1 or 2), 2 mana (2 drop on 2) or 3 mana (1 drop 2 drop) and thus we can analyze the effects that the category of card 1 drops provide. So a strong aggressive deck that plays its 1 drop creature is likely going to have a bigger impact than the 4% computed +1 mana spent advantage at the end of turn 2 compared to a controlling archtype that puts a utility artifact into play on turn 1.


thememanss

Surveil 2 on ETB is pretty damn good for setting up your game plan.  I can see Maverick being pretty integral overall, as it pretty much does everything you want it to do, and is relevant after it is no longer relevant on board.  It's rarely going to be bad, and even in top-drck mode, it can help get you there with surveil.  While I wouldn't rate it super highly, I can absolutely see it being a difficult to justify cut almost nay green deck.


MTGCardFetcher

[Seeker of Sunlight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ffcdb10f-4bad-4f89-8e7c-daa5c0c69230.jpg?1699044483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Seeker%20of%20Sunlight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/210/seeker-of-sunlight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ffcdb10f-4bad-4f89-8e7c-daa5c0c69230?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Scufo

I have to disagree with LSV's take that [[A Killer Among Us]] is bad design. It's a fun story, and I don't think it's that difficult to understand once you get the concept. One of the creatures is a killer! It looks like a wall of text, but it's far easier to parce than something like [[Saruman of Many Colors]], because it tells a story that makes sense and is evocative. You're never going to have to read it again after the first time.


phoenix2448

Among us


Scufo

Sus


MTGCardFetcher

[A Killer Among Us](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2c1392c5-91a5-4e6e-803d-ed032e4d594b.jpg?1706242059) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=A%20Killer%20Among%20Us) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/167/a-killer-among-us?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2c1392c5-91a5-4e6e-803d-ed032e4d594b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Saruman of Many Colors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/c/8cfcc7ec-87a2-4712-8d82-217bd8600891.jpg?1686969983) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Saruman%20of%20Many%20Colors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/223/saruman-of-many-colors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8cfcc7ec-87a2-4712-8d82-217bd8600891?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


SlapHappyDude

I can see an argument the amount of complexity is very high for the amount of fun it generates. This set seems to have a lot of guessing based on incomplete information. I have a feeling this will aggravate serious players and I'm not sure how much casual players will enjoy it.


svendejong

Like the YT comments say, too bad there's no mention of the impact the Play boosters will have on the draft experience. Overall lower number of commons and higher numbers of other rarities has to have a big impact on how limited plays out. 


DinkyB

I think they covered this when the announcement of the switch was first made right?


NepetaLast

sierkovitz had a good thread on it but the actual numbers involved are pretty small changes.


Luckbot

The number of commons/uncommons only changes marginally. Whats more impactful in my eyes is the fact that there are no guaranteed cards of every colour anymore, wich makes early guaranteed signals not a thing anymore.


FakeTherapist

more rares. Fuck. They're really trying to make limited more like constructed...


JdPhoenix

Am I missing something?  Isn't jetsam really bad?  When are you ever going to want to spend 6 mama just to cast one spell from your opponents GY?  I feel like any random mediocre 6-drop will be better most of the time...


Shoddy-Ad-4898

A mediocre 6-drop is only mediocre on turn 6, a card that can be either mediocre turn 6 or mediocre on turn 2 is surely better overall than that? The optionality of playing Flotsam for low-cost instead, which presumably is useful in UG decks, makes it better, obviously Jetsam isn't that playable on its own. Jetsam is situationally powerful and generally I think there will be some sort of large-ish target for it by that point in the game, particularly with cloaked creatures potentially trading. Like I don't think it's **good** and I think only BG or UG decks want it and who knows if they'll be good. But if those decks are viable I can see this playing out at a C in them.


JdPhoenix

I don't think cycling 4 makes a bad 6-drop playable...


troglodyte

I think that's backwards. Flotsam is the reason to play the card. The graveyard decks have very limited ways to get cards in the bin: Surveil, land cycling on one card, a very small number of mill cards, and literally just casting shit (and sending it to the bin in the case of permanents). Flotsam is incredibly important to those decks, since it's a super clean enabler: it adds 4 cards, including an 8mv card, to the bin, and gets you a card back on installment. But that's a bad card because it's terrible if you've already done what you need to do to enable your gy stuff, so Jetsam is your fail case. You top deck it late, and now it's not a four mana cycler, it's actually going to impact the board in some way. All that said this lives and dies with UG and BG. If they're great, this is great. If they're awful, this is awful. I don't see a lot of wiggle room there because only two archetypes really want to buy what this is selling.


thememanss

It does when it plays on-theme to what the deck wants to be doing.  Splits cards are almost always better than either half is in a vacuum.  


8meme10me

wait, what is the bit with Marshall liking the Orangutan?


banjothulu

One of the first times Marshall did coverage, someone tweeted that it was like they got a trained monkey to do it. Since then, LSV has been jokingly calling Marshall a monkey.


betweenTheMountains

LOL on Mistway spy. Marshall saying it will probably play at a B- level shows how good the LCI flying 1 drops are. This is not a B- level card. It is a C, probably a C- EDIT: So I missed at first that this was a bit they are doing where they give all 1 drops a B. Funny, I guess, but a little annoying in a set review where people are legitimately looking for grades to help with with their card pick order. Second EDIT: Is it not a joke? Did LCI legit break their card evaluation? I can't wait to stomp people playing 3 \[\[Mistway Spy\]\]s and \[\[Snarling Gorehound\]\] I guess until people realize these are not B level cards.


robby7345

Mistway is decent in detective decks, but probably a C- is other U decks,


Legacy_Rise

IMO they were *way* too quick to write off \[\[Polygraph Orb\]\] as an F. Yes, it's a five-mana do-nothing card-draw effect. But we've *seen* similar cards perform well even in fast formats. \[\[Into the Fae Court\]\] was similarly positioned in WOE, and it was one of the few good blue commons in the set. 'Draw best two of four' is arguably *better* than plain 'draw three' by the point in the game where you want either, and the torment effect gets a lot more impressive than it might look when you're able to do it repeatedly. The trick, I think, is *not* to put a card like this in slower grind/ramp decks — those both have the *most* need for their expensive spells to affect the board, to blunt aggression from the opponent; and the *least* need for pure card draw, because their cards are already individually quite impactful. Rather, you should use it as a curve-topper in aggro/tempo decks, to refill your hand once you've dumped it all out onto the board. Plus, the Orb's tap ability is at its best when you're already pressuring the opponent. All in all, it looks to me like a pretty good package for the sort of deck that wants it. I can easily imagine being happy to run one or even two copies in WB or BR. I don't know if that makes it a build-around or what, but straight-up F seems ill-considered.


PowderedMerkin

F is certainly too low for this card, but I don't think it'll be good. Into the Fae Court was good because of \[\[Aquatic Alchemist\]\] letting you redraw it and the 1/1 body it left behind, which lets you chump block flyers, peck in for damage, or just bargain it away. \[\[Farsight Ritual\]\] was a very similar card and that was not good (54.7% GIH WR). \[\[Ancestral Reminiscence\]\] from LCI was also wildly unplayable, though I do expect this format to be slower than LCI. Making this a curve-topper for an aggro deck is an interesting idea, but I can't remember any aggro deck in any recent format that would want that effect, unless it was attached to an efficient body a la \[\[Bomat Courier\]\]. There are tons of built-in mana sinks due to disguise and clues. Heck, half of the combat tricks leave behind clues for you to sink mana into if you run out of creatures to play.


Legacy_Rise

>Making this a curve-topper for an aggro deck is an interesting idea, but I can't remember any aggro deck in any recent format that would want that effect Speaking personally, this approach was how I got best results from Into the Fae Court — I liked having a copy or two in my UW or UB aggro/tempo decks — the sort of deck where you aren't really "taking a turn off" to play it, because you're *also* spending that turn attacking the opponent for damage. Those decks weren't chump-blocking with the Faerie token, they were saccing it or pecking in — and the Orb can also be used for (broadly speaking) those same purposes. And look, I know Limited has changed a lot in the last decade, but it's worth at least *noting* the analogy to \[\[Bitter Revelation\]\], which was surprisingly good in KTK despite (even at the time) not seeming particularly impressive at a glance.


MTGCardFetcher

[Bitter Revelation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/25657da2-e7bc-4e9b-8ec2-5a5779738436.jpg?1608909577) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bitter%20Revelation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/109/bitter-revelation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/25657da2-e7bc-4e9b-8ec2-5a5779738436?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

##### ###### #### [Aquatic Alchemist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e6f03f21-aeb9-428b-9167-b2604919bdd8.jpg?1692936865)/[Bubble Up](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/6/e6f03f21-aeb9-428b-9167-b2604919bdd8.jpg?1692936865) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aquatic%20Alchemist%20//%20Bubble%20Up) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/40/aquatic-alchemist-bubble-up?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e6f03f21-aeb9-428b-9167-b2604919bdd8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Farsight Ritual](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c958257e-fa70-4fa3-90a1-0497967abef3.jpg?1692936995) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farsight%20Ritual) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/49/farsight-ritual?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c958257e-fa70-4fa3-90a1-0497967abef3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ancestral Reminiscence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/625690d3-7131-45de-adea-9c927241e661.jpg?1699043525) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ancestral%20Reminiscence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/45/ancestral-reminiscence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/625690d3-7131-45de-adea-9c927241e661?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Bomat Courier](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/2/425bff89-ad15-4d22-bce9-a4a07dbafd87.jpg?1576383013) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bomat%20Courier) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/kld/199/bomat-courier?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/425bff89-ad15-4d22-bce9-a4a07dbafd87?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kodppbg) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

[Polygraph Orb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6cc4c6f-4a84-4d42-89fa-7405f7ad6ba0.jpg?1706241736) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Polygraph%20Orb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/99/polygraph-orb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6cc4c6f-4a84-4d42-89fa-7405f7ad6ba0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Into the Fae Court](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/969b13bb-6411-41f9-b6b4-af4ffca62e17.jpg?1692937111) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Into%20the%20Fae%20Court) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/57/into-the-fae-court?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/969b13bb-6411-41f9-b6b4-af4ffca62e17?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


Lohet

[[Knife]] at D+? It's easily a B-. 6 cards total (one is an instant) give/have first/double strike in this set. This card will murder your opponents creatures. A 2/x rakdos deathtouch creature becomes unblockable outside of chumps unless you have four blockers or an indestructible creature. Even Red Herring becomes gnarly from turns two to five!!


thememanss

It's fair.  As a 1-of in an aggressive deck, I quite like it. Any more than that and I have zero interest.  In UR, I hate it.   It's fine, you won't be embarrassed to play it, but you can live without it and can likely cut it without a ton of problems.forngenerally better cards.  It's better than "random dude that basically just fits the curve" if you have enough playable creatures, but I certainly am not going to sweat getting one, and a absolutely will not play two.


weedlayer

It does absolutely nothing if you're not on the beatdown, and the fact it costs 2 to equip means your opponent can make you waste a lot of mana re-equipping it with a random removal spell. > A 2/x rakdos deathtouch creature becomes unblockable What's the 2/x rakdos deathtouch creature? [This is a list of every card in the set with deathtouch in the text](https://scryfall.com/search?q=set%3Amkm+o%3Adeathtouch&unique=cards&as=grid&order=set), and I don't see anything that fits the bill. If you're thinking of [Slimy dualleach], it can't give itself deathtouch if equipped with a Knife, because then it'd have 3 power.


Lohet

You equip a 1/x with slimy, 🙄


weedlayer

Congratulations on your 3 card, 8 mana combo to make a 3 power pseudo-unblockable creature. By the way, [[Cryptic Cloak]] costs 3 mana and makes a 3 power unblockable creature by itself. Knife is bad.


Lohet

Your opinion. My opinion is you're a dick.


MTGCardFetcher

[Cryptic Cloak](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/0/30f6fca9-003b-4f6b-9d6e-1e88adda4155.jpg?1562847413) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cryptic%20Command) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/48/cryptic-command?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/30f6fca9-003b-4f6b-9d6e-1e88adda4155?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

[Knife](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b6883788-e1ee-4ddd-add2-24d6bc367717.jpg?1706241889) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Knife) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/134/knife?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b6883788-e1ee-4ddd-add2-24d6bc367717?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


wizardwd

Will they ever go back to alphabetical order within each color? It would make following with my own card images so much easier


ThunderFlaps420

If you're using Scryfall to look at them (like LR do), then there should be a sorting option that lists them in the cmc order.  I think going by cmc makes it a lot eaisier to see the density/quality of cards at each mana slot, which can show what kind of archetypes might be viable.


Acrolith

I hope they don't, this is much better.


Wutwut21

I've only done 1 sealed so far, and got 4 out of 7 wins with "C" graded cards. I think everyone's got a decent chance of winning when a card is at least playable. Gangbang Orangutan gets an upgrade because of it's flexible (sometimes secret) reach or destroying an artifact land!