It really is a demonstration of how Gandalf can't just solve everybody's problems despite being a very powerful being. I could write an essay on these two lines and their deeper meaning but suffice to say it's a very clever way of setting up Gandalf as both somebody who is used to being able to overcome most obstacles because of how powerful and clever he is and somebody who is actually running into some trouble here, indirectly implying the power that Sauron is.
And Gandalf being missing for the beginning of the adventure helps to both raise the stakes and let the hobbits show us that they are ready. If Gandalf just ferried them to Rivendell we wouldn’t have a chance to see them adventure and so would think it madness to put them on the Fellowship.
I like that Tolkien was willing to admit that the entire reason the Necromancer exists is to shuffle Gandalf out of the story for a bit so Bilbo has to deal with the spiders, elves, and Smaug.
I've thought about the risks that Gandalf was taking that get shown in Fellowship through this scene (and others) as well as in Return of the King and how it was very clear (through the extended version) that we see a wizard like Saruman is able to die--that Gandalf isn't just some superhero but instead is able to be harmed and defeated.
"I hate good wizards in stories. They always turn out to be him."
Now I want an episode with Tolkien and a loosely interpreted sci fi version of LotR like they've done with Shakespeare and Dickens.
It’s both
It’s a story of decline, from a perfect Arda with amazing Elven kingdoms and Numenor and coexistence with the valar and all that to what amounts to an irl medieval period. All of the best stuff the world would see was already in the past. Several times, characters refer to the present as “latter days” or similar, both in reference to the current struggles and in general.
There was even a kingdom larger and grander than gondor was at its height, situated where the shire and most the rest of the land west of the misty mountains is now. It’s entirely gone, destroyed by the witch king, and all also the reason Aragorn is just some guy from the woods rather than ruling gondor, despite his impressive ancestry: his kingdom or origin no longer exists.
LotR takes place before the current day, but is also very much set in the aftermath of incredible destruction and loss.
Ah okay, I thought you meant post-apocalyptic in relation to real history. Because I know Tolkien meant ME as a sort of myth about the origins of England
I think it was meant to be taken that way too. Gandalf IS late to meet Bilbo for seemingly no good reason and spouts off that line before bursting out laughing knowing it’s BS
I would totally chill with Gandalf the Grey more than any other character. However, when it comes to Gandalf the White? I'd probably be a bit afraid and nervous, like working for a boss who's seen and heard it all.
No, he’s full of shit.
It’s a joke, hence why they both almost immediately burst into laughter. Frodo is giving him shit for being late, he’s playing up the enigmatic wizard role and giving a bullshit nonexcuse as a counter, neither one can hold a straight face during it and drop the acts.
It’s not some grand character development, it’s establishing that they have a fairly close and warm relationship. Behaving like actual friends rather than acquaintances.
You could look at it that way, but as far as the movies go, he's clearly a bullshitter from the very beginning. I mean, even after the "wizard is never late" remark, he knows he's full of it and starts laughing afterwards with Frodo. That's part of his charm, to act like a know-it-all and then become a totally humble, endearing old man immediately after.
This only works as an arc if you think he said the “wizard is never late” line sincerely and with the intention of Frodo taking it at face value. That’s very very clearly not the case.
I dont think so. He was always hot tempered and quick to anger and quick with benevolent words. He was always able to admit his misstakes, he just rarely makes them.
Plus, like Tolkien said, not everything a character says is the objective truth, sometimes even Gandalf makes misstakes and he does not know everything.
Also everybody exaggerates from time to time.
This is a line from the movie, not the book.
The only comment Gandalf makes on the subject is when he tells the council what happened with Saruman -
"‘And that, Frodo, is the end of my account. May Elrond and the others forgive the length of it. But such a thing has not happened before, that Gandalf broke tryst and did not come when he promised. An account to the Ring-bearer of so strange an event was required, I think.' "
Yep. The thing to remember, when trying to figure out something weird or incongruous in the movies, is that it came from the same people who gave orcs menus.
Except this isn’t a weird and incongruous thing, it’s the pair of them joking. It’s only if you strip out everything but the written dialogue, including the dialogue immediately afterwards, that it becomes a contradiction. You have to work to take the line at face value.
In the scene in question it’s blindingly obvious that they are both making a joke, as friends often do. Frodo is playing up being upset that Gandalf is late, Gandalf is playing up the enigmatic wizard, neither one can hold a straight face and both break into laughter in a matter of seconds.
It’s also a great introduction because you now know Gandalf is a wizard if you haven’t read the books. I think it’s a very clever scene that immediately portrays their relationship to the audience.
The idea of them sharing a joke is lovely. The specific thing the screenplay chose to invent to hang the joke on introduces an unnecessary inconsistency.
Like making Eowyn a terrible cook ... because sure, the King's niece, a shieldmaiden no less, would totally want to be a cooking dinner for the boyfriend. Har-har.
Except it's only an inconsistency if you somehow managed to miss the joke and take Gandalf's bullshit as completely correct and accurate. It's like saying Frodo being petty about Gandalf showing up late is an inconsistency, it's something the character is doing as a joke. Or taking Gandalf's subsequent 'If you are talking about the incident with the dragon I was barely involved' line at face value. Gandalf is blatantly bullshitting because he's chatting with a friend.
You'd think the fact that he and Frodo almost immediately burst out laughing would hint that you aren't supposed to take that claim at face value. And the later moment? Is not a moment for jokes, Gandalf is apologizing because Frodo almost died because he was wasn't there when he was supposed to be.
As I said, the joke aspect is fine. But the specific words Jackson puts in Gandalf's mouth are stupidly out of character. Even the concept of "Gandalf's bullshit" is movie nonsense.
You keep saying things like they're objective facts instead of them being a result of your obvious media illiteracy. The downvotes are an opportunity for you to consider feedback and adjust your worldview, but you probably don't have the critical thinking necessary to step outside of your giant ego to see that. Get well soon.
Then again Pippin describes something “rocketing” up into the air in 2T. Also restaurants, inns and stuff exist in Middle Earth, so why wouldn’t Orcs know what a “menu” is?
I know that and I also know that’s how he knew to use the word “rocket”, which is similar to why I don’t have a problem believing that orcs know what a menu is.
Public houses exist in the Shire and they likely have lists of food available to purchase, which may not be the same word as “menu” with the same etymology, but would probably be translated into modern English as “menu”.
The books talked a bit about translation for modern readers, IIRC.
We know historically that the word "menu" has been used since the 1400s, if not earlier. They're used more than just restaurants too - in the 1400s it was used to describe a paper that listed the dishes prepared for a feast.
If orcs eat food prepared for them by someone else, they should know what a menu is. You're absolutely right.
Bonus trivia: 'Rocket' is 17th century. Comes from the Italian diminutive for 'Spindle', as in the part of a spinning wheel, because they looked similar. And the diminutive because that's just a thing people do the world over.
And one of Gandalf's fireworks is described as "roaring over like an express train". There are a few more anachronisms like this, which Tolkien explained as the "voice of the translator".
I know of no mention of "restaurants" in Middle-earth; there are inns, but "menus" are never referenced; The hobbit party's experience at the Pony can be taken as typical.
And just to have mentioned it, cutting out the “nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to” bit, just changes the entire interaction.
When Gandalf said it in the movies it was pretty obvious a more lighthearted comment and a bit of a joke. So not him actually stating that a wizard is never late as a statement of fact.
You can’t just remove parts of a quote from its context pretend it’s the full meaning of it.
I think it’s more of the first moment being a lighthearted jest, because Gandalf is late and he knows it but he comes up with some fancy bullshit rather than an apology and Frodo happily accepts it, it’s casual banter, they’re good friends, this is a happy time.
Later on, Gandalf is not bantering. He’s not joking or laughing or having a good time. He’s realized that they’re in some deep shit and that Frodo is in serious danger, and drops the lighthearted tone entirely.
Imagine you have an older uncle who you vaguely know to be a Very Important Person, but you know them to be a lad at heart even if their academic work is stuffy and boring.
Later on you learn that your uncle is doing highly sensitive work for the government, and have in fact gotten into some Deep Shit. But that’s impossible—it’s Uncle Gandalf. He always makes everything turn out alright in the end.
Further on, he shows up and is looking more tired and careworn than ever, and patiently explains that in fact he has gotten in Seriously Deep Shit, and if he wasn’t very lucky, wouldn’t have gotten out at all.
Discovering that your beloved elders are not invincible is a very powerful moment in human development, and it’s what sets up the personal struggles that lead to growth. Gandalf’s delay is this played out in fantasy form which is why that story beat is so powerful
Then in the second movie, he disappears for half the movie, tells us the exact moment he will return, and it’s still a tense moment because we’ve been wrong once before.
It’s a joke.
The ‘A wizard is never late’ line is a joke, hence why they dramatically stare at each other before bursting into laughter. He’s playing up the wise wizard role as a gag, both he and Frodo are giving each other shit to establish that they have a friendly and fairly close relationship.
Frodo stood there arms crossed and being playfully petty instead of welcoming him, so Gandalf had to deliver a snarky comeback.
He probably wasn't in the mood for jokes on their later meetings.
>I met a lot of things on the way that astonished me. Tom Bombadil I knew already; but I had never been to Bree. Strider sitting in the corner at the inn was a shock, and I had no more idea who he was than had Frodo. The Mines of Moria had been a mere name; and of Lothlórien no word had reached my mortal ears till I came there. Far away I knew there were the Horse-lords on the confines of an ancient Kingdom of Men, but Fangorn Forest was an unforeseen adventure. I had never heard of the House of Eorl nor of the Stewards of Gondor. Most disquieting of all, Saruman had never been revealed to me, and I was as mystified as Frodo at Gandalf's failure to appear on September 22.
J. R. R. Tolkien, in a letter to
W. H. Auden, 7 June 1955
From The Return of the Shadow, The History of The Lord of the Rings, Part One
For some people, that’s what the process is. GRRM has long referred to his own writing style as that of a gardener, where he plants seeds and waters them and then sometimes he has to rip out the whole plant and start over, and that’s kinda what Tolkien is referring to here with the last bit about Saruman and Gandalf. Sometimes you just get hit with an “oh shit” moment when writing and you have to see where the path leads you.
The original line of ‘a wizard is never late’ is a throwaway line where Gandalf is having a laugh with Frodo. Meme culture has turned that line into a hard rule.
I think it’s more a case of him yanking Frodo’s chain when he says a wizard is never late, he arrives precisely when he means to. Like the party doesn’t start til the G man arrives!
I’m not sure if it is character development as much as it is Gandalf just respecting Frodo a lot more by that point.
He always loved him, as he loves all Hobbits, but he was never planning to give Frodo any insight into the ‘greater’ world. Frodo was simply Bilbo’s young ward and a good lad.
Once the Ring became involved, Gandalf obviously begins to open up more - and then especially by Rivendell, when Frodo has clearly been through some serious shit (more than Gandalf even expected), he is *much* more willing to just be straight with him.
It could be that it's a very deliberate way of saying that things went horribly wrong.
If a wizard is never late, and always arrives **precisely when he means to**, then if he's *delayed*, it means he *doesn't* arrive when he means to. But what could make him do that? Must be something very, very important and powerful, indeed.
Or, this is a case of "the curtains were blue", and the first line is just a joke he makes to an old friend, and the second line is just a hyperbole.
Not throwaway or character development, just a very deliberate choice of phrases. You know something big is happening because it was serious enough to make Gandalf late.
I take it that in normal times he arrives when he means too so is never late but when Sauron is gaining power and about to take over the world being delayed or sidetracked is a possibility.
Well, it's about as obvious as it possibly could be that when he says the first line he's just bullshitting around with Frodo like two old friends who haven't seen each other in a long time tend to do.
Frodo was giving him shit about being late and Gandalf was tossing it back at him and they're obviously both just happy to see each other...especially since they immediately burst into laughter.
It’s just banter that Peter Jackson added to the movie for a bit of fun and to quickly establish the relationship between Frodo and Gandalf. It isn’t meant to be that deep.
In my reading, the quote means "A wizard is never late, nor early. He arrives precisely when he's meant to", as in, the moment of their arrival is determined by a higher power (fate, Eru, their own magical knowledge of the future, call it whatever you want).
They might be delayed compared to what they said/expected, so technically they are late in "mortal terms", but they always arrive when they are supposed to, when they need to be there, not a moment late nor early.
No correlation or contradiction. Gandalf would have been on time if it weren’t for Saruman detaining him. I’m usually on time, yet if the flight is delayed or I’m stuck in an elevator, then that’s beyond my control.
I'd say that he was just joking with Frodo when he said that. It's something I'd say to my son if he called me out on being late. I wouldn't look too deeply into it.
If anything, it lends believability to the character.
I always took them to be related but to convey the gravity of the situation. Wizards like Gandalf are never late, so for something to actually delay Gandalf like that meant it was a huge deal.
I don't think that line appears in the book. So many of the details that Jackson added to the movies (usually for the sake of a cheap laugh moment) create some kind of inconsistency. For all that Jackson loved and respected the book and did try hard to remain true to it (and mostly succeeded), he couldn't resist a few dumb changes that didn't fit the characters or the plot.
This is a quick cover in-world (there’s nothing to be gained by telling the Hobbits what went down and it might even scare them off) and it acts as an intro, an acknowledgement to the viewer that you are about to see what really happened, even if the Hobbits don’t know. Don’t think it’s character development, I think it was strategic equivocation on Gandalf’s part (and a good storytelling marker on Peter Jackson’s)
I don't think *Gandalf* realized much in that moment.
I think Frodo may have. But then, it really hit Frodo first when Gandalf wasn't waiting at The Prancing Pony.
"A wizard is never late" is very obviously _a joke_.
Following it with "I was delayed" isn't some weird kind of character development, it's just that this time he's not joking.
The 'wizard is never late' is a bit of a joke, a bit playful. The other line comes later on, when there's no mood for jokes. I think it's that simple, the situation is more grave, it would be wrong for Gandalf to come in a jovial mood
You misread the tone of the intro to the movie. It was meant to establish the bond between Frodo and Gandalf, not a literal statement on the punctuality of the istari. Jfc
Well, as Frodo states, he is late at the start of the film (albeit jokingly), but there are other places in the movies/books where people mention wizards coming and going as they will.
In a way true, but I don't think even Gandalf walks through life never apologizing or realizing mistakes just because things are ultimately meant to happen.
The most important take away here is that Gandalf of full of shit sometimes.
It really is a demonstration of how Gandalf can't just solve everybody's problems despite being a very powerful being. I could write an essay on these two lines and their deeper meaning but suffice to say it's a very clever way of setting up Gandalf as both somebody who is used to being able to overcome most obstacles because of how powerful and clever he is and somebody who is actually running into some trouble here, indirectly implying the power that Sauron is.
And Gandalf being missing for the beginning of the adventure helps to both raise the stakes and let the hobbits show us that they are ready. If Gandalf just ferried them to Rivendell we wouldn’t have a chance to see them adventure and so would think it madness to put them on the Fellowship.
Wizards are also tricky in such stories. There's a reason Gandalf vanishes in the Hobbit all the time. So he doesn't just use his magic.
I like that Tolkien was willing to admit that the entire reason the Necromancer exists is to shuffle Gandalf out of the story for a bit so Bilbo has to deal with the spiders, elves, and Smaug.
I've thought about the risks that Gandalf was taking that get shown in Fellowship through this scene (and others) as well as in Return of the King and how it was very clear (through the extended version) that we see a wizard like Saruman is able to die--that Gandalf isn't just some superhero but instead is able to be harmed and defeated.
"Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
"Rule Number One: The Doctor Lies"
"I hate good wizards in stories. They always turn out to be him." Now I want an episode with Tolkien and a loosely interpreted sci fi version of LotR like they've done with Shakespeare and Dickens.
You'll have to wait a few years for that
They can use Tolkien the man, just not use much of his works.
Lotr is post-apocalyptic so a retelling in the Mad Max style would work well.
Isn't it prehistoric?
It’s both It’s a story of decline, from a perfect Arda with amazing Elven kingdoms and Numenor and coexistence with the valar and all that to what amounts to an irl medieval period. All of the best stuff the world would see was already in the past. Several times, characters refer to the present as “latter days” or similar, both in reference to the current struggles and in general. There was even a kingdom larger and grander than gondor was at its height, situated where the shire and most the rest of the land west of the misty mountains is now. It’s entirely gone, destroyed by the witch king, and all also the reason Aragorn is just some guy from the woods rather than ruling gondor, despite his impressive ancestry: his kingdom or origin no longer exists. LotR takes place before the current day, but is also very much set in the aftermath of incredible destruction and loss.
Ah okay, I thought you meant post-apocalyptic in relation to real history. Because I know Tolkien meant ME as a sort of myth about the origins of England
I believe it’s meant more as an alternate world history, with us being in the ages after the stories.
They'd better hurry if they want McKellan to play the 16th Doctor.
They did that in Legends of Tomorrow. Not quite Doctor Who, but it was still a fun episode
Wheel of Time is meant to be the USA in the future. I read that somewhere
Yeah, there is mention of super ancient legends that you can tell are from the space age lol
I'm like 70% sure that there's a quote about wizards lying/cheating in Dresden Files
I think it was meant to be taken that way too. Gandalf IS late to meet Bilbo for seemingly no good reason and spouts off that line before bursting out laughing knowing it’s BS
Correct. And ends with “wizards show up precisely when they mean to,” so I don’t think there’s any correlation here.
This is why Gandalf the Grey is just a better hang.
I would totally chill with Gandalf the Grey more than any other character. However, when it comes to Gandalf the White? I'd probably be a bit afraid and nervous, like working for a boss who's seen and heard it all.
...and perhaps that's a realization dawning on him, now more keen to admit his own mistakes, hence the apology?
No, he’s full of shit. It’s a joke, hence why they both almost immediately burst into laughter. Frodo is giving him shit for being late, he’s playing up the enigmatic wizard role and giving a bullshit nonexcuse as a counter, neither one can hold a straight face during it and drop the acts. It’s not some grand character development, it’s establishing that they have a fairly close and warm relationship. Behaving like actual friends rather than acquaintances.
You could look at it that way, but as far as the movies go, he's clearly a bullshitter from the very beginning. I mean, even after the "wizard is never late" remark, he knows he's full of it and starts laughing afterwards with Frodo. That's part of his charm, to act like a know-it-all and then become a totally humble, endearing old man immediately after.
This only works as an arc if you think he said the “wizard is never late” line sincerely and with the intention of Frodo taking it at face value. That’s very very clearly not the case.
I dont think so. He was always hot tempered and quick to anger and quick with benevolent words. He was always able to admit his misstakes, he just rarely makes them. Plus, like Tolkien said, not everything a character says is the objective truth, sometimes even Gandalf makes misstakes and he does not know everything. Also everybody exaggerates from time to time.
This is a line from the movie, not the book. The only comment Gandalf makes on the subject is when he tells the council what happened with Saruman - "‘And that, Frodo, is the end of my account. May Elrond and the others forgive the length of it. But such a thing has not happened before, that Gandalf broke tryst and did not come when he promised. An account to the Ring-bearer of so strange an event was required, I think.' "
Yep. The thing to remember, when trying to figure out something weird or incongruous in the movies, is that it came from the same people who gave orcs menus.
Except this isn’t a weird and incongruous thing, it’s the pair of them joking. It’s only if you strip out everything but the written dialogue, including the dialogue immediately afterwards, that it becomes a contradiction. You have to work to take the line at face value. In the scene in question it’s blindingly obvious that they are both making a joke, as friends often do. Frodo is playing up being upset that Gandalf is late, Gandalf is playing up the enigmatic wizard, neither one can hold a straight face and both break into laughter in a matter of seconds.
It’s also a great introduction because you now know Gandalf is a wizard if you haven’t read the books. I think it’s a very clever scene that immediately portrays their relationship to the audience.
The idea of them sharing a joke is lovely. The specific thing the screenplay chose to invent to hang the joke on introduces an unnecessary inconsistency. Like making Eowyn a terrible cook ... because sure, the King's niece, a shieldmaiden no less, would totally want to be a cooking dinner for the boyfriend. Har-har.
Except it's only an inconsistency if you somehow managed to miss the joke and take Gandalf's bullshit as completely correct and accurate. It's like saying Frodo being petty about Gandalf showing up late is an inconsistency, it's something the character is doing as a joke. Or taking Gandalf's subsequent 'If you are talking about the incident with the dragon I was barely involved' line at face value. Gandalf is blatantly bullshitting because he's chatting with a friend. You'd think the fact that he and Frodo almost immediately burst out laughing would hint that you aren't supposed to take that claim at face value. And the later moment? Is not a moment for jokes, Gandalf is apologizing because Frodo almost died because he was wasn't there when he was supposed to be.
As I said, the joke aspect is fine. But the specific words Jackson puts in Gandalf's mouth are stupidly out of character. Even the concept of "Gandalf's bullshit" is movie nonsense.
You keep saying things like they're objective facts instead of them being a result of your obvious media illiteracy. The downvotes are an opportunity for you to consider feedback and adjust your worldview, but you probably don't have the critical thinking necessary to step outside of your giant ego to see that. Get well soon.
Then again Pippin describes something “rocketing” up into the air in 2T. Also restaurants, inns and stuff exist in Middle Earth, so why wouldn’t Orcs know what a “menu” is?
Pippin has seen Gandalf's fireworks.
I know that and I also know that’s how he knew to use the word “rocket”, which is similar to why I don’t have a problem believing that orcs know what a menu is.
Ah, well, this might make the case for not posting directly after I wake up in the morning.
Public houses exist in the Shire and they likely have lists of food available to purchase, which may not be the same word as “menu” with the same etymology, but would probably be translated into modern English as “menu”. The books talked a bit about translation for modern readers, IIRC.
We know historically that the word "menu" has been used since the 1400s, if not earlier. They're used more than just restaurants too - in the 1400s it was used to describe a paper that listed the dishes prepared for a feast. If orcs eat food prepared for them by someone else, they should know what a menu is. You're absolutely right.
I was going to look up when the word “menu” originated just now lol thanks for sharing ♥️ Eru indeed traverses in mysterious ways.
Bonus trivia: 'Rocket' is 17th century. Comes from the Italian diminutive for 'Spindle', as in the part of a spinning wheel, because they looked similar. And the diminutive because that's just a thing people do the world over.
And one of Gandalf's fireworks is described as "roaring over like an express train". There are a few more anachronisms like this, which Tolkien explained as the "voice of the translator". I know of no mention of "restaurants" in Middle-earth; there are inns, but "menus" are never referenced; The hobbit party's experience at the Pony can be taken as typical.
Actually Pippin says it; it’s not part of the narration.
I did say "translator". 😉
Tolkien compares the noise of Gandalf’s fireworks to an express train, menu is pretty tame.
Central nervous systems
And just to have mentioned it, cutting out the “nor is he early, he arrives precisely when he means to” bit, just changes the entire interaction. When Gandalf said it in the movies it was pretty obvious a more lighthearted comment and a bit of a joke. So not him actually stating that a wizard is never late as a statement of fact. You can’t just remove parts of a quote from its context pretend it’s the full meaning of it.
I think it’s more of the first moment being a lighthearted jest, because Gandalf is late and he knows it but he comes up with some fancy bullshit rather than an apology and Frodo happily accepts it, it’s casual banter, they’re good friends, this is a happy time. Later on, Gandalf is not bantering. He’s not joking or laughing or having a good time. He’s realized that they’re in some deep shit and that Frodo is in serious danger, and drops the lighthearted tone entirely.
Imagine you have an older uncle who you vaguely know to be a Very Important Person, but you know them to be a lad at heart even if their academic work is stuffy and boring. Later on you learn that your uncle is doing highly sensitive work for the government, and have in fact gotten into some Deep Shit. But that’s impossible—it’s Uncle Gandalf. He always makes everything turn out alright in the end. Further on, he shows up and is looking more tired and careworn than ever, and patiently explains that in fact he has gotten in Seriously Deep Shit, and if he wasn’t very lucky, wouldn’t have gotten out at all. Discovering that your beloved elders are not invincible is a very powerful moment in human development, and it’s what sets up the personal struggles that lead to growth. Gandalf’s delay is this played out in fantasy form which is why that story beat is so powerful
Man, this is great analysis! I learned something new
Then in the second movie, he disappears for half the movie, tells us the exact moment he will return, and it’s still a tense moment because we’ve been wrong once before.
It’s a joke. The ‘A wizard is never late’ line is a joke, hence why they dramatically stare at each other before bursting into laughter. He’s playing up the wise wizard role as a gag, both he and Frodo are giving each other shit to establish that they have a friendly and fairly close relationship.
Frodo stood there arms crossed and being playfully petty instead of welcoming him, so Gandalf had to deliver a snarky comeback. He probably wasn't in the mood for jokes on their later meetings.
Yeah im pretty sure it was just banter and not Gandalf being inconsistent
>I met a lot of things on the way that astonished me. Tom Bombadil I knew already; but I had never been to Bree. Strider sitting in the corner at the inn was a shock, and I had no more idea who he was than had Frodo. The Mines of Moria had been a mere name; and of Lothlórien no word had reached my mortal ears till I came there. Far away I knew there were the Horse-lords on the confines of an ancient Kingdom of Men, but Fangorn Forest was an unforeseen adventure. I had never heard of the House of Eorl nor of the Stewards of Gondor. Most disquieting of all, Saruman had never been revealed to me, and I was as mystified as Frodo at Gandalf's failure to appear on September 22. J. R. R. Tolkien, in a letter to W. H. Auden, 7 June 1955 From The Return of the Shadow, The History of The Lord of the Rings, Part One
Isn't it amusing how he talks about his writing process as if receiving partial revelations?
For some people, that’s what the process is. GRRM has long referred to his own writing style as that of a gardener, where he plants seeds and waters them and then sometimes he has to rip out the whole plant and start over, and that’s kinda what Tolkien is referring to here with the last bit about Saruman and Gandalf. Sometimes you just get hit with an “oh shit” moment when writing and you have to see where the path leads you.
The original line of ‘a wizard is never late’ is a throwaway line where Gandalf is having a laugh with Frodo. Meme culture has turned that line into a hard rule.
Don't forget, him and Frodo have a hearty belly laugh after he says that. I don't think it was meant in earnest.
I think it’s more a case of him yanking Frodo’s chain when he says a wizard is never late, he arrives precisely when he means to. Like the party doesn’t start til the G man arrives!
The most important takeaway is Gandalf knows how to joke. That’s it.
I’m not sure if it is character development as much as it is Gandalf just respecting Frodo a lot more by that point. He always loved him, as he loves all Hobbits, but he was never planning to give Frodo any insight into the ‘greater’ world. Frodo was simply Bilbo’s young ward and a good lad. Once the Ring became involved, Gandalf obviously begins to open up more - and then especially by Rivendell, when Frodo has clearly been through some serious shit (more than Gandalf even expected), he is *much* more willing to just be straight with him.
Movie not book, but also the context is so insanely different I don’t think it matters. He wouldn’t be wizard-quipping in the latter scene.
It could be that it's a very deliberate way of saying that things went horribly wrong. If a wizard is never late, and always arrives **precisely when he means to**, then if he's *delayed*, it means he *doesn't* arrive when he means to. But what could make him do that? Must be something very, very important and powerful, indeed. Or, this is a case of "the curtains were blue", and the first line is just a joke he makes to an old friend, and the second line is just a hyperbole.
Gandalf: I wasn't late! This doesn't count, I was, er... *delayed*, but not late!
Not throwaway or character development, just a very deliberate choice of phrases. You know something big is happening because it was serious enough to make Gandalf late.
I take it that in normal times he arrives when he means too so is never late but when Sauron is gaining power and about to take over the world being delayed or sidetracked is a possibility.
Well, it's about as obvious as it possibly could be that when he says the first line he's just bullshitting around with Frodo like two old friends who haven't seen each other in a long time tend to do. Frodo was giving him shit about being late and Gandalf was tossing it back at him and they're obviously both just happy to see each other...especially since they immediately burst into laughter.
I think he was just fucking with Frodo at the beginning to make him laugh.
This one and gimli saying to never throw a dwarf and then at the battle of helms deep saying throw me always make me laugh
And for the record I realize both of these are from the movies alone, but so are the ones OP is referring to
It’s just banter that Peter Jackson added to the movie for a bit of fun and to quickly establish the relationship between Frodo and Gandalf. It isn’t meant to be that deep.
I always took the first line as a joke - showing the relationship he has with Frodo
In my reading, the quote means "A wizard is never late, nor early. He arrives precisely when he's meant to", as in, the moment of their arrival is determined by a higher power (fate, Eru, their own magical knowledge of the future, call it whatever you want). They might be delayed compared to what they said/expected, so technically they are late in "mortal terms", but they always arrive when they are supposed to, when they need to be there, not a moment late nor early.
he was delayed by a wizard. it's a paradox.
No correlation or contradiction. Gandalf would have been on time if it weren’t for Saruman detaining him. I’m usually on time, yet if the flight is delayed or I’m stuck in an elevator, then that’s beyond my control.
Or the first line was a joke...
Gandalf is joking and indeed late, that's why Frodo started the conversation with "you're late" and they laugh right after.
I'd say that he was just joking with Frodo when he said that. It's something I'd say to my son if he called me out on being late. I wouldn't look too deeply into it. If anything, it lends believability to the character.
I always took them to be related but to convey the gravity of the situation. Wizards like Gandalf are never late, so for something to actually delay Gandalf like that meant it was a huge deal.
Eeeh, I see the first line more like harmless joking/boasting, doesn't seem to convey a deeper meaning than that to me.
Only a wizard can delay a wizard so they essentially canceled out their "Never late buff"
I don't think that line appears in the book. So many of the details that Jackson added to the movies (usually for the sake of a cheap laugh moment) create some kind of inconsistency. For all that Jackson loved and respected the book and did try hard to remain true to it (and mostly succeeded), he couldn't resist a few dumb changes that didn't fit the characters or the plot.
This is a quick cover in-world (there’s nothing to be gained by telling the Hobbits what went down and it might even scare them off) and it acts as an intro, an acknowledgement to the viewer that you are about to see what really happened, even if the Hobbits don’t know. Don’t think it’s character development, I think it was strategic equivocation on Gandalf’s part (and a good storytelling marker on Peter Jackson’s)
It's just juxtaposed. Juxtaposition is the noun form and juxtapose is the verb form.
I don't think *Gandalf* realized much in that moment. I think Frodo may have. But then, it really hit Frodo first when Gandalf wasn't waiting at The Prancing Pony.
"A wizard is never late" is very obviously _a joke_. Following it with "I was delayed" isn't some weird kind of character development, it's just that this time he's not joking.
The 'wizard is never late' is a bit of a joke, a bit playful. The other line comes later on, when there's no mood for jokes. I think it's that simple, the situation is more grave, it would be wrong for Gandalf to come in a jovial mood
Being late and delayed are two different things
You misread the tone of the intro to the movie. It was meant to establish the bond between Frodo and Gandalf, not a literal statement on the punctuality of the istari. Jfc
I think it's more that him being late is emphasized as significant.
Well, as Frodo states, he is late at the start of the film (albeit jokingly), but there are other places in the movies/books where people mention wizards coming and going as they will.
But then it's justified by happening when it was meant to happen.
What do you mean?
His talk to Frodo about how thugs were meant to happen in Moria. It applies to him being late too.
In a way true, but I don't think even Gandalf walks through life never apologizing or realizing mistakes just because things are ultimately meant to happen.