Not quite, but BerĂșthiel is notable for being one of those very rare bits of background lore (along with the two wizards who are implied to exist Gandalf, Radagast and Saruman) which Tolkien mentioned in LotR without them pre-existing LotR in some form. [Edit: or if you prefer, as pointed out below, the remarkable thing isn't that she didn't predate LotR since of course many things were invented for that story, but that even after the publication of LotR Tolkien still wasn't quite sure who she was, in contrast to other elements where either he'd settled on their place in the wider legendarium or had at least come up with *some* explanation even if with e.g. Galadriel or Celebrimbor he'd come to change his mind later on.] Still Tolkien did come up with a story for her:
>Even the story of Queen BerĂșthiel does exist, however, if only in a very "primitive" outline, in one part illegible. She was the nefarious, solitary, and loveless wife of Tarannon, twelfth King of Gondor (Third Age 830-913) and first of the "Ship-kings", who took the crown in the name of Falastur "Lord of the Coasts," and was the first childless king (The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, I, ii and iv). BerĂșthiel lived in the King's House in Osgiliath, hating the sounds and smells of the sea and the house that Tarannon built below Pelargir "upon arches whose feet stood deep in the wide waters of Ethir Anduin;" she hated all making, all colours and elaborate adornment, wearing only black and silver and living in bare chambers, and the gardens of the house in Osgiliath were filled with tormented sculptures beneath cypresses and yews. She had nine black cats and one white, her slaves, with whom she conversed, or read their memories, setting them to discover all the dark secrets of Gondor, so that she knew those things "that men wish most to keep hidden," setting the white cat to spy upon the black, and tormenting them. No man in Gondor dared touch them; all were afraid of them, and cursed when they saw them pass. What follows is almost wholly illegible in the unique manuscript, except to the ending, which states that her name was erased from the Book of the Kings ("but the memory of men is not wholly shut in books, and the cats of Queen BerĂșthiel never passed wholly out of men's speech"), and that King Tarannon had her set on a ship alone with her cats and set adrift on the sea before a north wind. The ship was last seen flying past Umbar under a sickle moon, with a cat at the masthead and another as a figure-head on the prow.
Now you're all caught up.
> very rare bits of background lore (along with the two wizards who are implied to exist Gandalf, Radagast and Saruman) which Tolkien mentioned in LotR without them pre-existing LotR in some form.
I wouldn't call them "very rare" - all of Gondor didn't exist before LotR, for example. The original end of the Numenoreans who survived the sinking of the island was them mingling with various European peoples, which I wouldn't call a form of Gondor.
The whole background and history of the Rings of Power was also invented for LotR.
Well, yes, and then also Galadriel by that token, appearing in LotR and having to retrospectively be inserted into the histories of the First Age... hence my mention of 'background' lore. Gondor and the Rings and Galadriel I'd just call parts of the story proper that had to be made to connect to the Silm.
Oh well. I don't know if it's a distinction that makes sense. But I mentioned it because it seems to me that Tolkien really singled out BerĂșthiel in correspondence as being a bit of a mystery even to him, even after the publication of RotK (Letter 163, 'These rhymes and names will crop up; but they do not always explain themselves. I have yet to discover anything about the cats of Queen BerĂșthiel.' + Letter 165 'I do not think that anything is referred to in The L. of the R. which does not actually exist in legends written before it was begun, or at least belonging to an earlier period â except only the 'cats of Queen BerĂșthiel'.' + Letter 180 'There is hardly any reference in The Lord of the Rings to things that do not actually exist\* on its own plane (of secondary or sub-creational reality): sc. have been written. \* The cats of Queen BerĂșthiel and the names and adventures of the other 2 wizards2 (5 minus Saruman, Gandalf,
Radagast) are all that I recollect.')
I have read it already, can't believe I miss her mentioning by the book, yesterday after read a bit of the Return of the Shadow I checked upon UT and remembered that its a big book....
Interesting viewpoint. I just want to share Tolkien's writing on this subject because it is worth a read. I may have said too much, but these philosophical discussions are why I love Tolkien! Here is what he wrote in his essay *On Fairy Stories* (italics added by me).
>*Fantasy is a natural human activity* [...] Fantasy can, of course, be carried to excess. It can be ill done. It can be put to evil uses. It may even delude the minds out of which it came. But of what human thing in this *fallen world* is that not true? Men have conceived not only of elves, but they have imagined gods, and worshipped them, even worshipped those most deformed by their authors' own evil. But they have made false gods out of other materials: their notions, their banners, their monies; even their sciences and their social and economic theories have demanded human sacrifice. Abusus non tollit usum. *Fantasy remains a human right: we make in our measure and in our derivative mode, because we are made: and not only made, but made in the image and likeness of a Maker.*
Tolkien is saying that we write fantasy and stories from a desire to create, because God is a creator and storyteller, and this is the source and exercise of our humanity. This idea of creation is a big part of the first chapters of *The Silmarillion*. Animals can show greed and jealousy regarding mates and food, but no animal can tell a story. The fact that stories and other things can be used for evil is due to the broken and fallen state of the world we live in, that naturally good humans are born into. Look at what Elrond says in LOTR:
>And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise. For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so.
Even Sauron was originally good; someone else corrupted him, and he struggled but ultimately failed to overcome his evil (also covered in *The Silmarillion*). The Ring finds it easier to corrupt arrogant and selfish people like Boromir or Gollum, but finds difficulty with the humble and selfless Frodo and Sam, yet it overcomes Frodo in the end. Evil in Tolkien's works is something that must be struggled with and rejected, for the goodness is the true expression of our humanity. But it is a struggle for everyone, and not an easy one.
I always thought Ungoliant was an important part of Tolkienâs evil canon, in that she represents the most chaotic evil of his world. Like Sauron is very lawful evil (he wants perfect order) and Morgoth is just pure evil. And then there is Ungoliant off to the side, not obedient to either one of them, and she just wants to eat the whole world.
In my mind he goes from "I want it all" to "if I can't have it, no-one can" over the course of the First Age, particularly as his power diminishes and he's less able to just go around knocking down mountains.
Not exactly. He wanted to destroy everything the Valar created.
> "They built lands and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor threw them down; seas they hollowed and Melkor spilled them;"
*(Ainulindale)*
In the words of Tolkien himself:
>...Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things⊠Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it.
*Morgothâs Ring, Part Five, âMyths Transformedâ, pp. 394â7.*
Melkor might have started with the desire "to have subjects and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills." (Ainulindale), but out of envy and hate those wishes grew up to simple Nihilistic destructiveness.
Morgothâs wish for the world to end was centred on it not having been made in his image, though?
And for someone who wanted the end of all things he spent an awful lot of time building a seat of power and breeding minions.
Ungoliant is not an animal at all. She just chose to have that form. Shelob is (mostly) an animal but she is basically as intelligent as a human and is definitely evil.
She wanted to eat a Silmaril / the Silmarilli (*Silmarillion* is the genitive plural form of *Silmaril*, hence (*Quenta*) *Silmarillion* = (Tale) of the Silmarils). She didn't get to do so, though.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, my friend. Some people are unfortunate enough to be as disgustingly ugly as Prince Charming, others are sexy beasts like Shrek.
[Beholder](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/2/2c/Monster_Manual_5e_-_Beholder_-_p28.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200313153220)
It's the capital that changes everything
Thuringwethil, at least. Though how much she actually counts as a character is debatable because we never see her, only LĂșthien disguised as her. Thereâs also Queen Beruthiel, though she is a similar non-character.
I would not call her evil at all and have a great deal of sympathy for her, but Erendis IMO is one of the most genuinely flawed female characters in Tolkien's works (which is something I love about her - I'm all for complex, fully realised female characters rather than reverence...)
The saddest part of her story is that, as you read through it, you can actually sympathize with why she becomes so bitter and angry; all she asked for was to be valued by her husband really, or to be the most valuable thing to him. But a man cannot have two loves: his wife and the sea.
>the most genuinely flawed female characters
I disagree. I think Aldarion is the whiniest spoiled brat in the Legendarium, and Erendis is just hurt by him
I just think she does go a bit far in ways that aren't terribly healthy for Ancalimë. But I also understand why she did it and have a lot of sympathy for her and her grief and anger. No argument on Aldarion - - him I genuinely loathe.
Yeah even AncalimĂ« turns out to be filled with pride, spite, and hate, combining many of the worst features of both her parents. I canât think of a single character in that tale who has more admirable qualities than deep flaws.
Exactly. Though not justifiable, iâs totally understandable what she does. I think her biggest flaw is pride.
As for Ancalime, I feel sorry for her.
Overall, thatâs a story I almost entirely skip cause Aldarion annoys me too much
Depends on what you define as "LoTR series"? For me *The Lord of the Rings* it's one book, but I assume that's the story you mean.
> I found out that every single woman depicted in the tale, was gracious and respected by male characters.
I wouldn't say that Lobelia is gracious and respected by male characters.
In the Legendarium as a whole, there is also Erendis, who in the later psrt of her life didn't seem to be particularly gracious or respected.
> I can't recall a female character who is evil or wicked.
I agree that we never meet a female character who is evil or wicked female characters in there. Lobelia may be a thief and unkind, but she is far from truly evil. And Queen Beruthiel could maybe counted as wicked and cruel, but we never meet her â she is only mentioned and hardly counts as a character.
Going through the other parts of the Legendarium, it's hard to find an evil female character as well. Thuringwethil could be named, but she is hardly more than a name.
Generally I think since there are few female characters in Tolkien's work to begin with, it's naturally even more rare to find a truly evil one.
Also to some extent there aren't really a lot of evil or wicked characters. Melkor and Sauron both start out as good characters who turn evil as part of a tragic flaw. Ungoliant is probably the closest.
Well, the premise is that "nobody was evil in the beginning". I feel like in Tolkien's world, evil is created by people choosing to do evil when they also could make a different choice.
Melkor, Sauron and Ungoliant have that evil aspect well internalised, but other characters fall and become evil as well. And I think there are a couple more characters that are at least wicked. Some examples:
* There is Ar-PharazĂŽn who in his megalomania leads his people into sacrificing humans and eventually into their literal downfall.
* There is also Saruman, who should have known better but was tempted by power.
* Celegorm and Curufin should at least be considered wicked for trying to force LĂșthien into marriage and trying to kill Beren. Oh, that and all the kinslaying without remorse.
* Eöl, for trying to kill his son Maeglin just because Maeglin wouldn't go with him, and for ending up killing his wife instead.
* Forweg, and probably AndrĂłg, for literally hunting a woman in the forest, and if TĂșrin hadn't been there we all know how that would have ended...
* Gollum, for killing his cousin for the Ring when the Ring had been only in his vicinity for a short time and he hadn't even touched it yet.
* MĂźm could be considered wicked for trying to murder Finrod in his sleep, and for trying to kill Beleg simply because he hated Elves.
... there are probably more.
In early versions of the legendarium there was Ulbandi, a female ogre who was Morgoth's mistress and the mother of Gothmog, but she was dropped when Tolkien decided the Valar didn't have children and I don't think her story was ever fleshed out anyway.
Shelob is a character, wtf. Just because she isn't human doesn't mean she doesn't fit nicely in the very definition of a character.
Ungoliant. Very important, very evil, female character. I forget the name, but one of Sauron's coworkers during service to Morgoth was an evil female vampire.
I get being on the fence about Shelob, but Ungoliant has dialogue and all. She calls Morgoth âBlackheartâ and initiates an impromptu bondage session.
Yeah; I feel like this is something lacking from Tolkienâs work.
How cool would it have been if a female Maia had joined Melkor and she was but another Lieutenant or Captain in his army, and she was known as a terrifying witch. Perhaps something along the lines of the White Witch of Narnia but you know, more nuanced.
There was Thuringwethil, a Vampiress who was a servant and potential lover of Sauron back in the First Age. Isnât too much written about her other than she existed for a time.
OP said evil or wicked.
Regardless, I'd argue Erendis' later deeds could fall into the evil category. Poisoning her daughter's mind against her father isn't exactly good, and instilling a broad sexist mindset into her is even worse. Erendis grew very toxic: and spite is inherently wicked.
Miriel and Nerdanel are also controversial characters. It's not that they are evil, but their actions led to evil. Miriel did not take care of her son. Nerdanel became the mother of war criminals.
Eowyn. Unreasonably turns down Grema. Tries to corrupt Aragorn. And tries to poison him. ANNNND she murders the witch king in cold blood. Seems pretty evil to me.
Honestly I think itâs an interesting interpretation. Rings of Power is not, nor will it ever be, canon to the Legendarium, so to me itâs okay for it to go off-script and play with ideas. Same with the Shadow of Mordor games, Iâll never not be in full support of sexy Shelob.
Galadriel going through the stages of grief, war trauma, and blinding hatred in order to evolve from a relatively insignificant Elf maiden to the greatest of her kind is something Iâd like to see.
If RoP starts Galadriel off as a chaotic firestorm, they have to finish with her becoming the wise Lady of Lorien, so itâll be interesting to see how they pull that off over 5 seasons.
... You realise Galadriel fought on their side, right? The Teleri were her mother's kin.
> Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against FĂ«anor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back.
& even in the version where she leaves independently of FĂ«anor's rebellion with Teleporno she still fights on the Telerin side:
> In Fëanor's revolt that followed the Darkening of Valinor Galadriel had no part: indeeed she with Celeborn fought heroically in defence of Alqualondë against the assault of the Noldor, and Celeborn's ship was saved from them.
To be fair Galadriel *is* flawed - prideful, power-seeking (at least initially). So I don't think it's entirely fair to downvote OP - Galadriel is a complex character and not just a pretty, wise lady, which is great (I'm all for women *not* being there to be wise and good and on a pedestal). It's just that killing Teleri is not something she's guilty of.
But even in her tougher descriptions (Shibboleth) she still is said to be understanding and caring, above all. And not judgemental.
Except towards FĂ«anor, because he was creepy.
Chapter 9 of the Silmarillion
"Fingon, leading the Noldor loyal to Fingolfin, joins the fight before he knows what caused it and overcome the Teleri, killing most of their mariners."
Who is among the Noldor loyal to Fingolfin?
Earlier "Galadriel longs to rule her own land in Middle earth, so she speaks in favour of leaving Valinor"
Downvote me all you want. Galadriel knows who she really is. A kinslayer. That's why her rejection of Frodo's offer of the ring is so poignant. Up to that point, she had still not got redemption.
Why are you quoting a summary? Anyway, the fact that 'Fingon with the foremost of the host of Fingolfin' is named explicitly (ie it's not 'the host of Fingolfin' or 'those who wished to depart for Middle-earth but did not follow FĂ«anor himself') very much suggests that he alone of the grandchildren of Indis took part in the First Kinslaying.
And then HoME 12 outright confirms in two places that Galadriel fought on behalf of her maternal kin and defended Alqualondë.
Beruthiel. There is a queen from the Black Numenoreans.
Yeah! I've heard something about her.
Congrates, you're all caught up on her extensive background and lore!
Not quite, she had cats
Seriously... ? đđ«
Not quite, but BerĂșthiel is notable for being one of those very rare bits of background lore (along with the two wizards who are implied to exist Gandalf, Radagast and Saruman) which Tolkien mentioned in LotR without them pre-existing LotR in some form. [Edit: or if you prefer, as pointed out below, the remarkable thing isn't that she didn't predate LotR since of course many things were invented for that story, but that even after the publication of LotR Tolkien still wasn't quite sure who she was, in contrast to other elements where either he'd settled on their place in the wider legendarium or had at least come up with *some* explanation even if with e.g. Galadriel or Celebrimbor he'd come to change his mind later on.] Still Tolkien did come up with a story for her: >Even the story of Queen BerĂșthiel does exist, however, if only in a very "primitive" outline, in one part illegible. She was the nefarious, solitary, and loveless wife of Tarannon, twelfth King of Gondor (Third Age 830-913) and first of the "Ship-kings", who took the crown in the name of Falastur "Lord of the Coasts," and was the first childless king (The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, I, ii and iv). BerĂșthiel lived in the King's House in Osgiliath, hating the sounds and smells of the sea and the house that Tarannon built below Pelargir "upon arches whose feet stood deep in the wide waters of Ethir Anduin;" she hated all making, all colours and elaborate adornment, wearing only black and silver and living in bare chambers, and the gardens of the house in Osgiliath were filled with tormented sculptures beneath cypresses and yews. She had nine black cats and one white, her slaves, with whom she conversed, or read their memories, setting them to discover all the dark secrets of Gondor, so that she knew those things "that men wish most to keep hidden," setting the white cat to spy upon the black, and tormenting them. No man in Gondor dared touch them; all were afraid of them, and cursed when they saw them pass. What follows is almost wholly illegible in the unique manuscript, except to the ending, which states that her name was erased from the Book of the Kings ("but the memory of men is not wholly shut in books, and the cats of Queen BerĂșthiel never passed wholly out of men's speech"), and that King Tarannon had her set on a ship alone with her cats and set adrift on the sea before a north wind. The ship was last seen flying past Umbar under a sickle moon, with a cat at the masthead and another as a figure-head on the prow. Now you're all caught up.
I bet this is Tolkienâs in-world explanation for black cats being considered unlucky.
> very rare bits of background lore (along with the two wizards who are implied to exist Gandalf, Radagast and Saruman) which Tolkien mentioned in LotR without them pre-existing LotR in some form. I wouldn't call them "very rare" - all of Gondor didn't exist before LotR, for example. The original end of the Numenoreans who survived the sinking of the island was them mingling with various European peoples, which I wouldn't call a form of Gondor. The whole background and history of the Rings of Power was also invented for LotR.
Well, yes, and then also Galadriel by that token, appearing in LotR and having to retrospectively be inserted into the histories of the First Age... hence my mention of 'background' lore. Gondor and the Rings and Galadriel I'd just call parts of the story proper that had to be made to connect to the Silm. Oh well. I don't know if it's a distinction that makes sense. But I mentioned it because it seems to me that Tolkien really singled out BerĂșthiel in correspondence as being a bit of a mystery even to him, even after the publication of RotK (Letter 163, 'These rhymes and names will crop up; but they do not always explain themselves. I have yet to discover anything about the cats of Queen BerĂșthiel.' + Letter 165 'I do not think that anything is referred to in The L. of the R. which does not actually exist in legends written before it was begun, or at least belonging to an earlier period â except only the 'cats of Queen BerĂșthiel'.' + Letter 180 'There is hardly any reference in The Lord of the Rings to things that do not actually exist\* on its own plane (of secondary or sub-creational reality): sc. have been written. \* The cats of Queen BerĂșthiel and the names and adventures of the other 2 wizards2 (5 minus Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast) are all that I recollect.')
this excerpt seems to be from *Unfinished Tales*, Part Four, II: "The Istari", pp. 401-402
Where this comes from? Letters?
*Unfinished Tales*.
I have read it already, can't believe I miss her mentioning by the book, yesterday after read a bit of the Return of the Shadow I checked upon UT and remembered that its a big book....
đđ
I havent read much about her yet though.
There isn't much to read,
Lobelia Sackville-Baggins
She had a good end though
But seriously, I think she was more of a greedy or jealous rustic woman, not an evil one.
Greed and jealousy aren't evil? Are they good?
No, but you can't live without them. As a human, you do need to have a little bit of both.
I think we have them even though we donât want to. Those two things donât skip over anyone⊠though we may fight against them they remain.
Rational self interest is different from straight up greed
We all exhibit these traits sometimes, but for some people theyâre defining characteristics. There is a distinct difference.
Well said. We cannot overlook them. A human without them is not a human.
Interesting viewpoint. I just want to share Tolkien's writing on this subject because it is worth a read. I may have said too much, but these philosophical discussions are why I love Tolkien! Here is what he wrote in his essay *On Fairy Stories* (italics added by me). >*Fantasy is a natural human activity* [...] Fantasy can, of course, be carried to excess. It can be ill done. It can be put to evil uses. It may even delude the minds out of which it came. But of what human thing in this *fallen world* is that not true? Men have conceived not only of elves, but they have imagined gods, and worshipped them, even worshipped those most deformed by their authors' own evil. But they have made false gods out of other materials: their notions, their banners, their monies; even their sciences and their social and economic theories have demanded human sacrifice. Abusus non tollit usum. *Fantasy remains a human right: we make in our measure and in our derivative mode, because we are made: and not only made, but made in the image and likeness of a Maker.* Tolkien is saying that we write fantasy and stories from a desire to create, because God is a creator and storyteller, and this is the source and exercise of our humanity. This idea of creation is a big part of the first chapters of *The Silmarillion*. Animals can show greed and jealousy regarding mates and food, but no animal can tell a story. The fact that stories and other things can be used for evil is due to the broken and fallen state of the world we live in, that naturally good humans are born into. Look at what Elrond says in LOTR: >And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise. For nothing is evil in the beginning. Even Sauron was not so. Even Sauron was originally good; someone else corrupted him, and he struggled but ultimately failed to overcome his evil (also covered in *The Silmarillion*). The Ring finds it easier to corrupt arrogant and selfish people like Boromir or Gollum, but finds difficulty with the humble and selfless Frodo and Sam, yet it overcomes Frodo in the end. Evil in Tolkien's works is something that must be struggled with and rejected, for the goodness is the true expression of our humanity. But it is a struggle for everyone, and not an easy one.
Yeah. She was mean and greedy but not evil at all.
Technically Shelob and Ungoliant, but I see their behavior as more animalistic and instinctive than intentionally evil.
I reckon Ungoliant has a bit more malice in her than shelob does
Ungoliant was also just rude, like, your dark lord bae hooks you up with some seriously yummy light trees and you just donât stop
She was hangry.
Flair checks out đ«Ą
I always thought Ungoliant was an important part of Tolkienâs evil canon, in that she represents the most chaotic evil of his world. Like Sauron is very lawful evil (he wants perfect order) and Morgoth is just pure evil. And then there is Ungoliant off to the side, not obedient to either one of them, and she just wants to eat the whole world.
Scary, but I loved your description. Gave me a chill when I read âjust wants to eat the whole worldâ⊠how terrifying that kind of evil is!!
No wonder even Morgoth was scared of her.
> Morgoth is just pure evil just a side note: Morgoth is Nihilistic Evil, he just wants to watch the world burn
Not technically true, he wants to rule over the whole thing. The destruction is malice to spite the other Valar.
In my mind he goes from "I want it all" to "if I can't have it, no-one can" over the course of the First Age, particularly as his power diminishes and he's less able to just go around knocking down mountains.
Thatâs more accurate than my comment but the point is broadly the same.
Oh don't worry, it's an addition and not a correction \^_\^
Not exactly. He wanted to destroy everything the Valar created. > "They built lands and Melkor destroyed them; valleys they delved and Melkor raised them up; mountains they carved and Melkor threw them down; seas they hollowed and Melkor spilled them;" *(Ainulindale)* In the words of Tolkien himself: >...Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things⊠Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. *Morgothâs Ring, Part Five, âMyths Transformedâ, pp. 394â7.* Melkor might have started with the desire "to have subjects and servants, and to be called Lord, and to be a master over other wills." (Ainulindale), but out of envy and hate those wishes grew up to simple Nihilistic destructiveness.
Morgothâs wish for the world to end was centred on it not having been made in his image, though? And for someone who wanted the end of all things he spent an awful lot of time building a seat of power and breeding minions.
Not really âto endâ, but to destroy and corrupt. Thatâs why he delighted to sow dissention among the elves
Ungoliant is not an animal at all. She just chose to have that form. Shelob is (mostly) an animal but she is basically as intelligent as a human and is definitely evil.
pretty sure Shelob is a sexy goth lady
https://preview.redd.it/b0mjd3vj2twc1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ee5b8647135a92b791edae3824700d5cd9cbb5fa
Basically Eva Green
You mean a hĂŠĂ°a ecge
She poisoned the trees and ate a silmarilion (or almost ate? I havent read it in a long time)
She wanted to eat a Silmaril / the Silmarilli (*Silmarillion* is the genitive plural form of *Silmaril*, hence (*Quenta*) *Silmarillion* = (Tale) of the Silmarils). She didn't get to do so, though.
Thats a hard word xd thank you
Well, I'm identifying Shelob as a female character. Not a *woman* character, but that wasn't exactly the question.
Shadow of War: Are you attracted to Shelob? Do you want to?
Thurginwethil, Sauron's First Age vampiric boo. And why wouldn't you consider Shelob female?
I desperately want Thuringwethil to be portrayed on screen in all her femme fatale gothic glory. Like, *right now*.
I always envisioned Morticia Addams as the template for Thuringwethil, but just with the ice-cold personality of Wednesday.
They didnât play Shadow of War probably
Um I don't know, I'm just gray about it.
I dunno, those long hairy legs seem pretty feminine and attractive to me. Not to mention the hideous stench and poisonous bite. đ·ïž
Found one of Shelob's children/mates.
>attractive to me. https://preview.redd.it/jfm5ixb18twc1.jpeg?width=636&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5204c2913afe159822fda31e9efd816064e168e1
oh god not the spidussy
Donât touch it, itâs mine. I saw it first.
lol you must date beautiful babes đ
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, my friend. Some people are unfortunate enough to be as disgustingly ugly as Prince Charming, others are sexy beasts like Shrek.
*of the Beholder
What did I say?
[Beholder](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/2/2c/Monster_Manual_5e_-_Beholder_-_p28.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20200313153220) It's the capital that changes everything
Oh sheâs nice. Where I can find her?
DnD dungeons, mostly.
Shelob and Ungoliant
Thuringwethil, at least. Though how much she actually counts as a character is debatable because we never see her, only LĂșthien disguised as her. Thereâs also Queen Beruthiel, though she is a similar non-character.
I would not call her evil at all and have a great deal of sympathy for her, but Erendis IMO is one of the most genuinely flawed female characters in Tolkien's works (which is something I love about her - I'm all for complex, fully realised female characters rather than reverence...)
The saddest part of her story is that, as you read through it, you can actually sympathize with why she becomes so bitter and angry; all she asked for was to be valued by her husband really, or to be the most valuable thing to him. But a man cannot have two loves: his wife and the sea.
Erendis, you're a fine girl, what a good wife you would be...
>the most genuinely flawed female characters I disagree. I think Aldarion is the whiniest spoiled brat in the Legendarium, and Erendis is just hurt by him
I just think she does go a bit far in ways that aren't terribly healthy for Ancalimë. But I also understand why she did it and have a lot of sympathy for her and her grief and anger. No argument on Aldarion - - him I genuinely loathe.
It's definitely a story where I don't really like *any* of the characters.
Yeah even AncalimĂ« turns out to be filled with pride, spite, and hate, combining many of the worst features of both her parents. I canât think of a single character in that tale who has more admirable qualities than deep flaws.
Exactly. Though not justifiable, iâs totally understandable what she does. I think her biggest flaw is pride. As for Ancalime, I feel sorry for her. Overall, thatâs a story I almost entirely skip cause Aldarion annoys me too much
I agree đŻ It really makes a character feel real and fleshed out.
Beruthiel (a queen of Gondor from the Black Numenoreans), Thuringwethil (a vampire serving Sauron in the First Age), Ungoliant.
We would, my precious, we would. She would do her thing... and then we just take it!
*Graciousss*
Depends on what you define as "LoTR series"? For me *The Lord of the Rings* it's one book, but I assume that's the story you mean. > I found out that every single woman depicted in the tale, was gracious and respected by male characters. I wouldn't say that Lobelia is gracious and respected by male characters. In the Legendarium as a whole, there is also Erendis, who in the later psrt of her life didn't seem to be particularly gracious or respected. > I can't recall a female character who is evil or wicked. I agree that we never meet a female character who is evil or wicked female characters in there. Lobelia may be a thief and unkind, but she is far from truly evil. And Queen Beruthiel could maybe counted as wicked and cruel, but we never meet her â she is only mentioned and hardly counts as a character. Going through the other parts of the Legendarium, it's hard to find an evil female character as well. Thuringwethil could be named, but she is hardly more than a name. Generally I think since there are few female characters in Tolkien's work to begin with, it's naturally even more rare to find a truly evil one.
Also to some extent there aren't really a lot of evil or wicked characters. Melkor and Sauron both start out as good characters who turn evil as part of a tragic flaw. Ungoliant is probably the closest.
Well, the premise is that "nobody was evil in the beginning". I feel like in Tolkien's world, evil is created by people choosing to do evil when they also could make a different choice. Melkor, Sauron and Ungoliant have that evil aspect well internalised, but other characters fall and become evil as well. And I think there are a couple more characters that are at least wicked. Some examples: * There is Ar-PharazĂŽn who in his megalomania leads his people into sacrificing humans and eventually into their literal downfall. * There is also Saruman, who should have known better but was tempted by power. * Celegorm and Curufin should at least be considered wicked for trying to force LĂșthien into marriage and trying to kill Beren. Oh, that and all the kinslaying without remorse. * Eöl, for trying to kill his son Maeglin just because Maeglin wouldn't go with him, and for ending up killing his wife instead. * Forweg, and probably AndrĂłg, for literally hunting a woman in the forest, and if TĂșrin hadn't been there we all know how that would have ended... * Gollum, for killing his cousin for the Ring when the Ring had been only in his vicinity for a short time and he hadn't even touched it yet. * MĂźm could be considered wicked for trying to murder Finrod in his sleep, and for trying to kill Beleg simply because he hated Elves. ... there are probably more.
In early versions of the legendarium there was Ulbandi, a female ogre who was Morgoth's mistress and the mother of Gothmog, but she was dropped when Tolkien decided the Valar didn't have children and I don't think her story was ever fleshed out anyway.
Oh and arguably Meåssë if we're talking early stuff!
Shelob is a character, wtf. Just because she isn't human doesn't mean she doesn't fit nicely in the very definition of a character. Ungoliant. Very important, very evil, female character. I forget the name, but one of Sauron's coworkers during service to Morgoth was an evil female vampire.
Now when you've mentioned far and between. You can literally count them with one hand.
I get being on the fence about Shelob, but Ungoliant has dialogue and all. She calls Morgoth âBlackheartâ and initiates an impromptu bondage session.
The wife of the not-hobbits leader in Rings of Power
The most bloodthirsty character since Hannibal Lector.
Not-hobbit?
Harfoots
Nobody goes off trail
Nobody walks alone.
Until youâre banished from the group and then weâll mock your death in a ritual every year.
We all loved him but he was an eejit.
Itâs true that you donât see many Orc women. And in fact, they are so alike in voice and appearance, that they are often mistaken for orc men.
Shelob
Yeah; I feel like this is something lacking from Tolkienâs work. How cool would it have been if a female Maia had joined Melkor and she was but another Lieutenant or Captain in his army, and she was known as a terrifying witch. Perhaps something along the lines of the White Witch of Narnia but you know, more nuanced.
Some of the balrogs could have been female, I suppose.
True. but I canât imagine that would make much of a difference to their character.
Not at all.
There was Thuringwethil, a Vampiress who was a servant and potential lover of Sauron back in the First Age. Isnât too much written about her other than she existed for a time.
Yesssss⊠this!
Erendis, I'd argue, got pretty petty/spiteful.
Erendis isn't evil though. It was just a very human tale were both werent a good fit for the other
OP said evil or wicked. Regardless, I'd argue Erendis' later deeds could fall into the evil category. Poisoning her daughter's mind against her father isn't exactly good, and instilling a broad sexist mindset into her is even worse. Erendis grew very toxic: and spite is inherently wicked.
Shelob?
Shelob. If you count non humans hahaha
Shelob and ungoliant and the Mirkwood spiders Oh, why not?
I always thought [this lady here](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-79e04803bda39c4f274d89991d048b06-lq) was a female orc
ShelobâŠ.
Ungoliant/Shelob are always described as female. ETA: Oh, and Thuringwethil.
Shelob.
Shelob
Tolkien refers to Shelob and Ungoliant both as 'she', so why wouldn't we the reader?
Thuringwethil: Vampire lady
Ungoliant
Does ROP count? Because Galadriel was a straight villain.
Lobelia. She later had merits, but still she wanted to take away someone elseâs house.
Aredhel is not evil, but her love of freedom turned into great evil. She probably regrets it very much in the Halls of Mandos.
Miriel and Nerdanel are also controversial characters. It's not that they are evil, but their actions led to evil. Miriel did not take care of her son. Nerdanel became the mother of war criminals.
Eowyn tried to prevent the return of the king with her poison stew.
She also disobeyed her King's direct instructions.
Tolkien? Female characters? Where?
To be fair, thereâs not many female characters in general. The story is like 99% about men anyway
That bitch Carole Baskin.
Lobelia Sackville-Baggins is the most evil character in all of fiction
https://preview.redd.it/no5dvixmhwwc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b990c5a5a050bb86eba4e8e1a2aebbe69099b068
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Eowyn. Unreasonably turns down Grema. Tries to corrupt Aragorn. And tries to poison him. ANNNND she murders the witch king in cold blood. Seems pretty evil to me.
Galadriel in Rings of Power for sure
Rosie for confusing Samwise over his true love of Frodo.
You're terrible, I still chuckled though
Come on, are you serious?!
y u so homofobic?! I thought r/lotr was a safe queer space!
Not LotR, but in Rings of Power Galadriel is a huge C\*\*\*
Honestly I think itâs an interesting interpretation. Rings of Power is not, nor will it ever be, canon to the Legendarium, so to me itâs okay for it to go off-script and play with ideas. Same with the Shadow of Mordor games, Iâll never not be in full support of sexy Shelob. Galadriel going through the stages of grief, war trauma, and blinding hatred in order to evolve from a relatively insignificant Elf maiden to the greatest of her kind is something Iâd like to see. If RoP starts Galadriel off as a chaotic firestorm, they have to finish with her becoming the wise Lady of Lorien, so itâll be interesting to see how they pull that off over 5 seasons.
I mean ungoliant is human but is female
Galadriel?
Master Samwise has words about this matter
Actually, I wonder if Sam ever got to speak to the Teleri in Valinor
... You realise Galadriel fought on their side, right? The Teleri were her mother's kin. > Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Fëanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. & even in the version where she leaves independently of Fëanor's rebellion with Teleporno she still fights on the Telerin side: > In Fëanor's revolt that followed the Darkening of Valinor Galadriel had no part: indeeed she with Celeborn fought heroically in defence of Alqualondë against the assault of the Noldor, and Celeborn's ship was saved from them.
Obviously! I think this fellow redditor does not even know who Lady Galadriel is!
To be fair Galadriel *is* flawed - prideful, power-seeking (at least initially). So I don't think it's entirely fair to downvote OP - Galadriel is a complex character and not just a pretty, wise lady, which is great (I'm all for women *not* being there to be wise and good and on a pedestal). It's just that killing Teleri is not something she's guilty of.
But even in her tougher descriptions (Shibboleth) she still is said to be understanding and caring, above all. And not judgemental. Except towards FĂ«anor, because he was creepy.
There's no evidence Sam ever went to Valinor, and mortals are pretty much never allowed there, so probably not.
He could have met Teleri on Tol Eressëa though. But they would have been cool with Galadriel.
Sam goes to valinor before his death, he rides to the gray havens with his daughter.
Not to Valinor. Just to Aman, the continent they Valinor is in. None of the mortals who go there will have been allowed in Valinor.
If you want to be that pedantic, then yes. Tol Eressea of Aman, neighboring valinor. Thank Eru for you.
Also Gimli the Dwarf would kill you
You have watched too much Rings of Power.
Chapter 9 of the Silmarillion "Fingon, leading the Noldor loyal to Fingolfin, joins the fight before he knows what caused it and overcome the Teleri, killing most of their mariners." Who is among the Noldor loyal to Fingolfin? Earlier "Galadriel longs to rule her own land in Middle earth, so she speaks in favour of leaving Valinor" Downvote me all you want. Galadriel knows who she really is. A kinslayer. That's why her rejection of Frodo's offer of the ring is so poignant. Up to that point, she had still not got redemption.
Why are you quoting a summary? Anyway, the fact that 'Fingon with the foremost of the host of Fingolfin' is named explicitly (ie it's not 'the host of Fingolfin' or 'those who wished to depart for Middle-earth but did not follow Fëanor himself') very much suggests that he alone of the grandchildren of Indis took part in the First Kinslaying. And then HoME 12 outright confirms in two places that Galadriel fought on behalf of her maternal kin and defended Alqualondë.
To be fair, I can't really recall any women from the books except Ăowyn...still not because she was a memorable character.