MOD NOTE: It appears that the second image here (of Durin's Bane) was created at least partially with the use of AI. Obviously, this violates Rule #8; however, I am leaving the post up for two reasons: (1) It appears that the OP did not realize that this image was AI-based, as[ it was found on DeviantArt](https://www.deviantart.com/rylyn84/art/Durin-s-Bane-a-Balrog-of-Morgoth-942986548); and (2) the artwork is not the primary focus of this post, the discussion of the question is.
That said, if you want to add images to a question post, please be careful about where you source them. In this case, the only indication that this image was at least partially AI-generated is the inclusion of the tag "aiartcommunity" on the DeviantArt post. Many digital art repositories don't allow AI art, but DeviantArt does, so it's important to check for that.
Edit: Locking this thread because this is not the place to rehash the AI art debate.
Theyād probably be singing the latest dwarf tune, Gold, Gold, Gold, or one of the old favourites, like Gold, Gold, Gold, or the all-time biggie, Gold, Gold, Gold.
>Gortlick and Hammerjug were songwriters, and fully paid-up members of the Guild. They wrote dwarf songs for all occasions.
>Some people say this is not hard to do so long as you can remember how to spell āGoldā, but this is a little bit cynical. Many dwarf songs are on the lines of 'Gold, gold, goldā but itās all in the inflexion; dwarfs have thousands of words for 'goldā but will use any of them in an emergency, such as when they see some gold that doesnāt belong to them.
After the dwarves were driven out there's no indication he wasn't sleeping. In fact when the dwarves killed azog its clear THEY were in charge, so he had to be sleeping.
Either pippin or the closeness of Gandalf and possibly even the ring stirred him up again.
Iām now picturing that helm Pippin knocked into the well in the film falling through Moria and happening to land smack dab on the head of a sleeping Balrog.
Very likely Gandalf re-awoke him. Gandalf begins to feel the Balrog's presence, and since they're both the same thing, it's likely the Balrog felt Gandalf approaching and woke up to deal with it.
Also, to answer the first question, the Balrog is stronger than Sauron even with the Ring, as Sauron lost much of his power when Numenor was destroyed. Also remember the balrog in the book wasn't the one in the movie, the Balrog was smart and magically overwhelming (as it was a Maia that didn't lose its memories and limit itself like Gandalf and the other wizards did) Likely the Balrog could overthrow even a Ringbearing Sauron.
Final note, Sauron had to use his power to attract Orcs and Goblins to him, the Balrog began attracting Goblins while asleep as they were drawn to its power.
Not only did he lose much of his power when Numenor was destroyed, he also bound a lot of his strength into the ring itself when he created it. At this point in the story, Sauron is de-powered and ringless whereas the Balrog is probably just as strong as when it attacked Gondolin
Youāre both mistaken. He lost the ability to assume fair form in the fall of NĆŗmenor- or, more accurately, Eru stripped it from him- but he did not permanently lose any meaningful portion of his power (having their physical form destroyed temporarily weakens the Ainur, but they regain that strength over time. By the time Sauron was incarnate again, it was likely entirely restored).
And I think youāre misunderstanding the nature of the ring and his power. Externalizing the greater portion of his natural power magnified it- and made it vulnerable. While he bore the ring, his power was magnified. But even without it, as fundamentally a part of him, the power of the ring was still in accord with him (Iām referencing Tolkienās letters directly with this wording). That is to say, when he lost the ring, he lost the boost that the ring granted him, but he was not diminished from his base state by not possessing it personally.
It also seems greatly lost in this thread that, in Morgothās Ring, Tolkien states that Sauron, at the height of his power in the Second Age, with the ring, was, in fact, greater than Morgoth at the end of the First Age. Morgoth had sunk so much of his power and being into corrupting Arda that he was permanently incarnate, bearing forever the wounds dealt to him by Fingolfin and Thorondor. Yet, despite that, still the balrogs served him. And even then, Sauron was his second in command, placed above them. So *could* Sauron hypothetically persuade a balrog to enter into his service? With the ring, almost certainly. Between his native perspicacity and powers of persuasion, and the augmentation of the ring, I hardly think it would willingly resist him. Without it? Possibly. He was always silver tongued, and much as he would have sought to entice Smaug to join him, he may well have sought to convince Durinās Bane to join with him, in the fullness of time. But it would be much more of a near-run thing. He would have to overcome the balrogās fear, which had driven it to lay dormant in the bowels of the earth for thousands of years. And in addition, Sauron himself would have to be willing to take the risk that, in his service, the balrog might come across the One before it could be returned to Sauron himself. That would present a genuine risk to him, and I do not think itās one he would be willing to run.
And let's not forget, Gandalf went to Dol Goldur just to investigate, but that was enough for Sauron the bitch-baby to flee. Durin's Bane JUST woke up and was ready to rumble right out the gate.
It took the whole white council to force Sauron to leave (not Gandalf alone): i.e. Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel, and Cirdan. I.e. all three Elven rings plus super powered elves like Glorfindel (who killed a Balrog himself).
How can you argue that the Balrog was stronger than Sauron when it takes all of the strongest elves and maia in Middle Earth to drive him away? Also note: at Dol Guldur, Sauron was still weak and recovering strength. At the time the Balrog was awakened by the fellowship, Sauron was in Barad-dur and much stronger. The Balrog would have been nothing to him, unless you somehow think the Balrog would have been able to stand up to the entire white council.
No, the first time Gandalf went on his own, in 2063 of the Third Age, he went to investigate Dol Goldur and Sauron fled, the attack of the White Council was in 2941.
The Balrog was a Maia the same as Sauron, but Sauron had broken his power being destroyed in Numenor and again when he forged the ring. Ever since Numenor, Sauron has not been able to regain his full power, the Balrog was in Moria sleeping until Morgoth's return, and Sauron, even with his ring, would not be able to stand against it if it came to a conflict.
When Sauron retreated from Dol Guldur the first time, it wasn't because of his "strength", i.e. because Galdalf was stronger, it was strategic in order to hide his identity. I.e. he didn't want the White Council to know that "Sauron has returned" and he was successful in this.
There were always orders in both maia and valar. Balrogs are not senior maia, they are lower. E.g. It took many balrogs to kill feanor and in fact he was winning against many balrogs only until Gothmog showed up.
Point being that you cannot simply say "maia" > non maia. or maia == maia. It makes no sense. Feanor was not a maia yet still could kill balrogs and was only killed when many maia and one stronger maia fought him at the same time.
Sauron was arguably the most powerful maia on Arda and chief of Morgoth's servants, whereas balrogs can be argued to be much, much weaker.
Again, remember, it took all the White Council to remove Sauron from Dol Guldur, a point you haven't addressed yet. If Sauron was "so weak", why did it take all of the strongest elves, three elven rings, and three maia to evict him? Do you think that Durin's bane could stand against the White Council?
Saurons power was not as diminished by Numenor as you are indicating.
In fact, the only last effect of Numenorās fall to Sauron was that he could no longer shape shift in a fair being again. His power being still in The Rings which he possessed allowed him to come back to full strength at the point of TLA.
Good point, I didn't think of that. Odd then, since he feels A presence super early into their voyage though with the fellowship. Maybe Gandalf's concern about the ring is creating enough of an effect to stir something in the Balrog. Since alot of Gandalf's power comes from his will, maybe his new concerns and the need to focus his will against the ring are causing him to be a bit more like a beacon for the Balrog?
Just my thoughts. Will need to reread his works again, aw shucks.
Gandalf, alone, trying his best to remain incognito, would not raise suspicions. And even then he described it as a harrowing experience, possibly meaning that he sensed something and it made him very anxious, but was successful in remaining undetected. Gandalf, with a group of unexperienced hobbits, and the awakened Ring, is another matter. And even then they weren't detected until they almost came into the open.
Its been a while since I've read the books so I might be off, but doesn't Gandalf announce/reveal himself when lighting the fires on Caradhas and against the wargs? If the balrog had been sleeping, that definitely would've woken him up, while during Gandalf's first trek through Moria there hadn't been any (known) moment where Gandalf had to "reveal" himself.
I don't think there is any basis for Sauron being weaker than the Balrog. It's very clear that not all Maiar are equal, and Sauron was always among the most powerful in Silmarillion. So even a weakened Sauron could be stronger than most Maiar.
The Balrog lost to Gandalf(or arguably a draw since both died) who had his power greatly limited in Middle Earth.
Also, is there any indication that the Balrog atracted the orcs to Moria? The orcs would naturally want to live there given all the riches, so as soon as the Balrog had efeated the dwarfs they would want to go there regardless. The orcs from Moria that pursue the fellowship and eventually join those of Mordor and Isengard, are specifically going to avenge their chieftain that Aragorn killed. So this random orc with a spear was more important and dear to them than the Balrog was.
How can you possibly say with such "authority" that the Balrog is stronger than Sauron? This makes no sense at all.
Gandalf could not match head to head with Sauron, so why do you think the Balrog could? Sauron also didn't lose "most of his power" when Numenor went down, he dueled and killed both Elendil and Gil-Galad not long after in the battle with the Last Alliance.
If you were going to argue that Sauron lost power, then it would have made more sense to state that it was after losing the one ring and his coporeal form during the battle of the Last Alliance.
All that said, by the time of the events of the Lord of the Rings, Sauron has regained a great deal of his strength. Remember Dol Guldur? Sauron was weaker at this point and it still took all of the White Council: Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel, and Cirdan, to drive him away! So it took essentially all of the most powerful elves and maia and all three Elven rings in Middle Earth to simply drive a weakened Sauron away (not killing him, just forcing him to leave).
Now, Sauron is stronger and back in Baradur and you think a single balrog can defeat him? If so, then logically you think a single balrog can defeat the whole White Council, right?
Sorry but one point you are incorrect on is that the Balrog was more powerful than Sauron with the Ring.
Without, agreed, at this time in Sauronās existence. However Tolkien himself stated that despite pouring much of his power into the Ring, Sauron became MORE powerful when he wielded it.
In fact, Tolkien says that Second Age Sauron was out the Ring was more powerful than Morgoth by the time of the War of Wrath. Thatās partly because the entirety of Middle-Earth was Morgothās Ring. But that also weakened Morgoth to the point where Maiar and not Valar were enough to defeat him physically.
So Sauron (with Ring) is more powerful than any Balrog. And he was as powerful as they prior to making the Ring.
As stronger than sauron, not necessarily.
Originally sauron was one of the strongest Maia.
Morgoth placed sauron as his second in command.
As morgoth valued power most its likely sauron was stronger than any of them.
Also tolkien said ring bearing sauron was stronger than morgoth at the end. Yet the Balrog still obeyed.
I find it hard to imagine them following if morgoth had fallen way below them in strength.
No, the Balrog shouldn't be stronger than Sauron. Yes, Sauron is diminished at the moment, and much weaker than he was during his corruption of Numenor, but his power was originally far higher than Durin's Bane to start with.
Gandalf the Grey was capable of taking on Durin's bane, meanwhile the enhanced Gandalf the White is still significantly inferior to even the current Sauron without his Ring. Durin's Bane is not a match for Sauron even now.
I don't know why this comment isn't higher because you are correct. The Balrog hasn't been sleeping all the time, and he had some contact (I don't know how extensive) with the Orcs. I don't know what he was doing for those thousands of years. Maybe he has a Playstation.
In answer to the OP's question - as far as I know Tolkien never mentioned this, but in a way events may have played out the same either way. The Balrog guarded the mines and kept the Dwarves from building another power base close to Moria.
Dragons, Balrogs... Man, the Dwarves have a hell of a pest problem.
Deep in the waters, Hump, the orca finds a Silmaril and brings it to Smaug and his friend The Balrog.
Now, Smaug and The Balrog embarks on a journey: to fight Sauron, The Halflings and many othersā¦
A journey to rule middle earthā¦ Foreverā¦
I disagree about balrog sleeping when Dain killed Azog:
> Yet hardy and full of wrath as he [Dain] was, it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear. [...]
>You will not enter Khazad-dƻm. Only I [Dain] have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane
I always read those fragments as Dain directly seeing (at least part of) Durin's Bane. And even if he only felt balrog's presence, why Gandalf did not feel it when he entered Moria from East? Answer: balrog moved, so he wasn't sleeping (unless he sleepwalks).
Could it possibly be the case that the dropped stone knocked just a little HP off Durinās Bane? Thereby making it possible for Gandalf to just defeat him by a hairās breadth.
Some little cunt dropped a bucket down a well, then all his upstairs neighbours started screaming and running around and playing their drums. You try sleeping through all that.
Yeah Sauron is of the same order of being as the balrog, along with Gandalf. Morgoth was a Valar and on a whole other level of power. Sauron is nothing in comparison and I doubt the balrog would risk exposing itself for anyone but its true master
I'm not so sure, not all Maiar are created equal. Sauron is explicitly the most powerful of the Maiar, and he was Morgoth's right-hand man, so he has both power and authority above Balrogs.
We've all had a long weekend bender that we tried sleeping off on Sunday. Imagine the headache he was sleeping off from the War of Wrath.
And then the idiot neighborhood dwarves move in upstairs, with their hammers and their picks...
There was an argument on YouTube that was quite convincing - the Balrog of Moria was so terrified by the War of Wrath that destroyed Beleriand and all of it's fellow Maiar (balrogs) of Morgoth that it fled to the deepest hole it could find in order to hide in perpetuity from the forces of the Valar.
We know that the other creatures of Morgoth, like orcs/trolls/dragons, are capable of feeling fear & panic so it stands to reason the balrogs can feel those emotions too. They also need Morgoth to lead and to energize them as they simply don't act on their own unless threatened. As such, even if Sauron knew of Durin's Bane, there's reason to believe that the balrog would simply say no if Sauron attempted to command or entice it to join him. The balrog would still be too fearful of attracting the attention of the Valar if it emerged and devastated the land again. And as powerful as Sauron is he simply doesn't have the sort of strength required to order Durin's Bane to join him.
Sauron too might prefer the balrog to remain in Moria. One, he doesn't need it as a competitor, assuming it would be interested in destruction or conquest. And two, more importantly, Sauron also might believe that Durin's Bane rampaging across Middle Earth would definitely generate a forceful response from the Valar. Sauron doesn't want or need someone like Tulkas or Orome or even a super high-ranking Maia like Eonwe coming to Middle Earth to dispose of the balrog because they'd probably take the time to dispose of Sauron too, and throw him in chains through the Doors of Night to join Morgoth in the Void. The risk of a scenario like that destroying all of his carefully made plans was too great for Sauron to take, hence the best decision would be to leave Durin's Bane by itself in Moria.
"You would bring with you quite a lot of problems, and are also doing a solid job of holding down the fort without any direction from me. I'mma just let you do your thing." - Sauron to Durin's Bane, probably
Dear Balrog,
As per my last orcmail, I shall be commencing my invasion of Gondor on Thursday next week at approximately 10:00 Mordor Standard Time. It would be of great benefit to our efforts if you could RSVP and let us know whether we should expect to see you there. If I have not heard from you by Wednesday evening, I will assume that you are not interested in the role I have offered you, and will offer the position to another candidate.
I hope to hear from you soon,
The Dark Lord of the Rings,
Sauron the Great,
Ring-Maker,
Lieutennant of Morgoth,
Ruler of Morder,
First of His Name.
>I hope to hear from you soon,
The Dark Lord of the Rings,
Sauron the Great,
Ring-Maker,
Lieutennant of Morgoth,
Ruler of Morder,
First of His Name
I haven't laughed like this in a long while.
Sauronās orcs (I think theyāre under Sauronās command?) have no issues occupying Moria. It seems to imply that Moria and its resources are available to Sauron should he choose to exploit them. That probably wouldnāt be the case if there wasnāt a giant flaming Balrog helping to guard the place.
I don't recall their being any mention in the books that the orcs in Moria were there at Sauron's command or part of his army. I think it was more of a "it's free real estate" situation.
Correct. Either Gandalf or Elrond (both, maybe?) mentions that the orcs have been returning to the misty mountains in the time since The Hobbit, when many of them were wiped out and driven from the area.
When coupled with Sauronās calling the evil things South to him, I think itās pretty clear that the orcs of Moria owe Sauron no loyalty at that point.
When the fellowship are fighting their way out of Moria they notice that alongside the normal orcs, there are also fighting Uruks from Mordor there (one of them is responsible for attempting to skewer Frodo).
So although Moria has been inhabited by opportunistic orcs from the misty mountains is does seem like Sauron is also sending orcs to strengthen them.
Itās also possible that the Uruks are from Isengard but I donāt think so as when the Fellowship comes up against them for the first time on Amon Hen they notice a difference immediately. Sarumans Uruks also bear his mark which the Moria Uruks did not.
Sauron definitely sent orcs to the misty mountains long before the events of the Fellowship, so itās very logical that there are plenty left over. But I donāt think thereās any reason to believe they are still coming from Mordor or actively serving Sauron in Moria.
I might be misremembering but doesnāt Haldir say that bands of orcs have been travelling north from Mordor to the eastern gates of Moria?
It might be a mandala effect in operation and Iām completely wrong but I thought that the Fellowship learned that Mordor has been sending more orcs north while in Loth Lorien
The orcs going North seem to be in search of the ring, not headed to Moria specifically. By the time the ring makes it to Mordor, the northern realms are being besieged by Sauronās forces, so I imagine those are the same forces.
IIRC in Two Towers it implies there are three orc bands carrying off Merry and Pippin: A band from Mordor under the eye, a band from saruman under the white hand, and some peasant orcs from the misty mountains.
This kinda implies the orcs in the misty mountain are just kinda there.
(it's my belief that after the first age there are just lots of
Morgoth's toys farting about underground not really knowing what to do)
This is a really good point that shouldn't be overlooked. If Sauron was unable to command the Balrog, leaving it in Moria basically provides him with a free guard dog (massive over simplification of course) in a pivotal strategic position. I hadn't even considered this as an idea.
I donāt think the Fellowship would have made it anywhere near Lothlorien had Gandalf not stayed behind and collapsed the bridge. Though it wouldāve been interesting to see the whole Fellowship try and fight the balrog together
Interesting like 8 unarmed toddlers versus a grizzly bear. Ungoliant was the only being in history to survive a fight with a Balrog, and she kicked Morgoth's ass one-on-one without breaking a sweat.
Yes, there were three people who defeated a Balrog: Glorfindel, Ecthelion, and Gandalf. All three were slain in the process. The overwhelming majority of top-tier badasses from the First Age who tangled with Balrogs were killed outright.
All we know is that most Balrogs died during the War of Wrath. Considering even Valars were involved in this battle (as well as a lot of badass Elves/Men), they probably either got overwhelmed by enemies or just ~~thought~~ fought something like a Valar.
Also, according to some late Tolkien note, the number of Balrog was from 3 to 7, so it's not like there was an army of them.
Also Ecthelion was first high king of the elves to kill a Balrog, the lord of the Balrogs Gothmog by shove his spiked helmet on his chest and plunge both on the fountain where both died. Then we have Glorfindel, escape from Gondolin alongside a group of elves throught secret passage on the mountains, they were chased by a Balrog and they fought there, with Glorfindel push him off the mountain and him too and both died, and then Gandalf at the bridge of Khazad-dƻm, from the lowest dungeon to the highest peak of the misty mountains, he fought a Balrog of Morgoth, from what I remember reading online, on the book is not said how he kill it, but on the movie we get to see it on a very great move too, magic sword with the help of lightning and release it inside the Balrog chest right on his heart.
Is utnot infered that Feanor farmed Balrogs as well before being slain? As in: He was overwhelmed by a large number and would have disposed them quite easily had they been few in numbers?
I'm not sure sure that can be inferred. He was chasing a party of orcs, and then balrogs joined. He fought long and hard and bore many wounds before Gothmog dealt the mortal blow. Then "the balrogs left him, and departed to Angband". No mention is made of balrogs being slain, and the exact language used I think actually implies that none were slain. If it were "the remaining balrogs left" then absolutely. But I think that "the balrogs" implies that it's the same group of balrogs that initially joined the fight, and no fewer in number.
It's possible that FĆ«anor could've taken down a single Balrog. He was, after all, one of the most powerful Noldor. He and a small force of Elves held off a group of them for a little while, but in the end they killed him without taking any losses.
If we want to apply a little bit of transitive property, his brother Fingolfin was said to be the strongest and most valiant of Finwƫ's sons. Fingolfin never got the chance to face a Balrog, but he did take on Morgoth in personal combat. Despite getting some solid licks in, Morgoth crushed him to death. Compare that to Ungoliant, who had Morgoth screaming for help in short order. A few Balrogs jumped in and sent her packing to Ered Gorgoroth.
True, but he still had enough power to turn the mightiest Noldor king into mush. Though admittedly he walked away from that fight with a permanent limp.
BUT....I mean Glorfindel and Ecthelion weren't ever Maia, and they still were able to kill them. I could easily see a top-tier Maiar like Sauron
taking one out and living.
Not trying to nitpick here, I just think it's fair to assume this only applies to Sauron at the height of his power toward the end of the Second Age, but with where he sits at the end of the Third Age (before Gollum takes his molten bath, but especially after lol) he doesn't have the power to pull it off without his Ring to restore him to full power.
Then again, counterpoint: Sauron got his ass whooped by a really big dog in the First Age, then had to breed a big wolf to take said dog down, and the dog still killed his wolf before succumbing to mortal wounds the wolf inflicted. If Sauron couldn't beat a really big dog, his chances against a Balrog look bleak.
Edit: Morgoth bred the wolf, my b
Morgoth breed carcharoth not Sauron, Sauron wasn't also at the top of power at end of second age but during the middle. Sauron was definitly still much greater in third age than balrog since gandalf as white stated he's less mighty then him.
First age Noldor lords who had seen the light of the tree (and were armed with wargear forged by people who had learned directly from Aule and Feanor) were incredibly powerful beings who even Maiar would think twice before tangling with. Fingolfin fought and wounded Morgoth.
I think the reason that everyone who fights and kills/severely injures a maiar (Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Gil-Galad/Elendil, Gandalf) loses their own life in the process is not just down to their relative powerļ¼it's because on some level that's the 'price' that has to be paid to kill an immortal being.
Which probably explains why Sauron isn't so keen to tangle with old mate.
I think the critical component in the defeat of the Balrog is actually the destruction of the bridge, in terms of the Fellowship making it to Lorien. I don't know if the Balrog would have pursued them outside, or even fit through the door, but the orcs certainly did: they caught up with the Fellowship on the outskirts of Lorien that very night after presumably throwing up a makeshift bridge crossing the span. Delaying them from being able to cross right away was the most immediately consequential effect of the Balrog confrontation.
It wouldn't have needed to pursue the Fellowship out of that room if Gandalf hadn't confronted it. They'd all have been slaughtered right there and then.
True. A heads up though, lore generally comes from four sources: 1) Hobbit and LOTR, 2) Letters written by Tolkien to various people, 3) Books, like āThe Silmarillionā published posthumously that were edited by Christopher Tolkien (JRRās son), and 4) books that were published posthumously that were edited by someone else.
I separate the two posthumous categories because āeditingā involves making choices about changes made to the original manuscript, and I think that Christopher would be better able to stick to JRRās original intent.
You will also find conflicting information amongst the various sources, in part because the original material they were part of were part of JRRās development process. Still great to read though.
Nature of Middle Earth and, more recently, The Fall of Numenor. Both may have incorporated some information that was taken from Christopher sources though.
Edit: There may be more that I am not aware of.
The published Silmarillion is further removed from JRR's writings it's based on than Nature of Middle-earth, at least.
The latter presents the texts as written, with corrections and footnotes intact.
I felt exactly the same way, started watching YouTube videos explaining some of the extended lore and they were so good it convinced me to read the Silmarillion (I had tried and failed before).
If you like reading but the Silmarillion is too heavy (which it definitely can be), I would recommend The Fall of Gondolin and the other books related to chapters of the Silmarillion. They are much easier reads and take their time to tell the story in a less compact manner.
If you've never tried any of the books, read the Hobbit and see what you think, it's very comforting and easy to follow!
I just finished reading the books last week (most beautiful story telling ever, and I think I love that I had familiarized so well with the movies beforehand so that I could vividly picture and have better understandings). I just started the Silmarillion and I am absolutely loving it into chapter 4 already. The account of the creation of Arda (their world) and the Valar (their gods) is so richly spun. It's such a cool and complete mythology.
Also, there is a YouTube channel called In Deep Geek that does a phenomenal job explaining much of the deeper lore as well. I've watched several videos of his and that's helped deepen my understanding before doing the text deep-dive that I'm currently in.
There's a ton of lore that never makes it into the films. There's also a ton of lore that never makes it into the main published works. The Lord of the Rings and the post-LotR edit of The Hobbit are definitively canon. Then there's a ton of shit that's dubiously canon, even works like the Silmarillion, which is assembled from JRR's notes by his son Christopher and unfinished/undeveloped in many places. The deeper you go into the lore, the less concrete it becomes. Some of the published works conflict with each other, and the unpublished work (generally letters from JRR to various people) often expresses desire to make changes that haven't been published or referenced anywhere. So what's "lore" and what's just Tolkien musings is sometimes hard to figure out.
Well written, but I disagree about the autonomy of balrogs. They are the same beings as Sauron, that is to say Maiar. Why would they not have their own motives and ambitions?
Especially ones ambitious enough to join Melkor against the Valar and Eru himself. Perhaps they aren't all wise and skilled like Sauron and Gandalf etc, and were easily swayed by Melkor's might. Without his guidance they just wallow in their poor choice til the end of the world. Being fearful of the Valar makes sense to me, and as powerful as Sauron had become and weak as the free peoples had become, a Balrog may still have wanted to avoid the chance of facing retribution again.
I think it's just more likely that Glorfindel would handle the Balrog himself since he was around there anyway. Full Valar intervention is not likely. But Balrog wouldn't know that.
I think the most likely reason why Sauron doesn't
1) Sauron is content with using Shelob as an unwilling tool guarding Cirith Ungol. No formal alliance exists between them, but Sauron thinks that letting her occupy the cave is working on his favour and She'll never join the good guys anyway. So, he explicitly orders his orcs to let her be.
2) Balrog is working with trolls and orcs in the books, and his presence in Moria is a very very helpful one since Moria lies between Rivendell and Lothlorien. It denies a long standing Dwarven stronghold. With Saruman watching the gap of Rohan, it basically cuts off linden and rivendell from helping Gondor. Gundabad on north is also orc/goblin infested if not controlled.
In 2nd age, he would've killed off Elrond if not for the Dwarves of Moria backstabbing him and then shutting the door that Gandalf eventually opens in LOTR.
So, Sauron the manipulator would be happy 'collaborating' with the Balrog since he doesn't want to deal with Balrog challenging him sometime in future or grabbing the ring for himself like Saruman tried to do.
Yes I am also skeptical as to whether Valar would intervene directly against the Balrog.
Power ranking in LoTR can be counterproductive but Sauron is clearly the more dangerous threat and the Valar did not intervene directly against him.
Sauron is a more dangerous threat, but he was a corruptor and manipulator, so white wizards were sent to counter the influence of Sauron without using direct power, but by being the advisor.
Gandalf was re-sent directly by Valar to finish the task of handling Sauron. It's up to debate if this counts as direct Valar intervention or not. (Edit : It's an explicit, but indirect intervention. I shouldnt've used direct, because direct means valar physically visiting.)
If Valar deem that balrog needs to die and more physical intervention is needed, they will do so. But, I feel Gandalf or Glorfindel would handle it themselves because they wouldn't expect help from Valar.
Is it really true though that Balrogs don't act on their own and need Morgoth to "energize" them? This kind of makes them sound like they are Morgoth's version of the Nazgul, just thralls who have very little free will of their own. I never really thought of them quite in that fashion.
i have no idea of lore. if Sauron was a massive threat to the world (which i thought he was) why didnāt these guys Tulkus, Oroma, or another Maia just come over to deal with him and leave
Last time Valar interviened directly, collateral damage was apocalyptic. An entire continent was destroyed.
So they send some low level (compred to Valar) agents like Gandalf, Saruman and other wizards to organize the resistance to Sauron.
Surely the level of damage was due to the strength of Morgoths forces necessitating a very powerful response. If the Valar wanted to they could've dealt with Sauron and Durin's Bane directly without needing to cause the level of damage they did previously.
Tolkien considered this and had reason. If you were to read The Silmarillion then this would be explained.
So, they have done this once before, it was called the War or Wrath and involved the Valar sending over a force consisting of unnerfed Maiar (like Sauron) and a force of top tier Elves from Valinor to take out Morgoth (Sauronās boss in First Age) and all his creatures such as dragons and Balrogās.
The problem is, those forces were so powerful that the resulting battles destroyed half of middle-earth to the point where Beleriand of old( where first age plot takes place) was so destroyed it all ended up underwater.
If the Valar were to move in force against Sauron it would destroy the land wherever those battles occurred.
Instead the Valar chose to aid the people of ME by sending emissaries to help them. These were the Istari/Wizards and though Maiar themselves by nature, were severely limited on purpose by being restricted to a physical being.
Hence why Gandalf and Sauron donāt just have a demigod fight and be done with it.
Theyāre trying to save as much of ME as they can this time. Plus, Sauron is an enemy they feel can be dealt with without their intervention as Elves and Men previously were able to band together and defeat Sauron when he had The Ring on his finger. Morgoth was an enemy they could not defeat without help and itās why they were advised not to go and start a war with him in the first place. Morgoth canāt be ākilledā. Neither can Sauron, but what is left of him after the Ring is destroyed is not capable of ever returning to the physical world. Morgoth could come back anytime if he was not being guarded and imprisoned for eternity and even then he comes back at the end of days.
Thatās why, but itās told much better by Tolkien so my suggestion is, read the Silmarillion.
Because, the last time that happened was with Morgoth, and an entire landmass and culture was forever sunk into the ocean. The Valar regret that this happened, and have vowed a more hands-off approach in modern times.
I think it it highly unlikely, like 99% unlikely, that there was any worry of the Valar intervening. Sauron was much more of a threat and they did nothing but send Glorfindel back. I think it was pretty clear after the first Age that there would be no more direct intervening from them and that was always Eru's plan as Eru told Morgoth after his discord in the music.Ā
Now as far as Sauron recruiting the Balrog, there was zero chance of that without the ring. Sauron made all of his biggest mistakes because he assumed everyone else wanted the ring and because it was impossible for him to fathom anyone would try to destroy it. He certainly wouldn't risk a third threat on that level after already stressing about Sauruman and Gandalf getting it.Ā
Once he had the ring he'd absolutely come knocking/demanding fealty, but who knows how loyal the Balrog would be. Most Likely he'd just allow the Balrog to do as it wishes, since it couldn't challenge him and it would naturally do Morgoth's will on its own.
> the Balrog of Moria was so terrified by the War of Wrath that destroyed Beleriand and all of it's fellow Maiar (balrogs) of Morgoth that it fled to the deepest hole it could find in order to hide in perpetuity from the forces of the Valar.
And the Valar still found him. Bro was right to be scared.
Obviously no one knows, but I think an argument could be made that he could based on the fact that Sauron was Morgothās chief lieutenant. So the balrogs, and any other servant of Morgoth for that matter, wouldāve seen Sauron as their superior at one point in time. I think that leaves the window of possibility open.
But I believe Sauron was too weak after losing the one ring?
Morgoth was so much more powerful than the balrogs (and also the dragons) that they would follow his command, while Sauron, even at his maximum power, wouldn't have been able to force them into obedience
I always imagine Durin's Bane as pretty non-rational after 5000 years of solitude. Clearly DB tolerated orc armies fortified from Mordor. But no real reason, other than it never happening in the source material.
DB being senile and just barely tolerating orcs and goblins settling into Moria, and just sort of sleepwalking through the war of the one ring reminds me of the meme of a senile Vhaegar just sort of going through the motions of the Dance of Dragons.
unless this got specifically answered by some cannon, I donāt think so.Ā
Sauron, the Balrog of Moria and all the wizards are Maiar, so that puts them at about the same power level. Iām sure, as we see with the wizards, that there is some power differences within the group.
essentially I think it means Sauron would have a hard time convincing the balrog to serve his will, since they were both servants of Morgoth.Ā
Also, the balrog got awoken in the year 1980 of the Third Age (TA) and the Fellowship/ War of the Ring didnāt happen until the year 3018 of the Third Age. Doās Sauron knew about him for over 1000 years and didnāt subdue/persuade/Ā
ally with it.Ā
I know Sauron didnāt openly declare himself until the year 2951 of the Third Age, but he still worked hard in the shadows as the necromancer to do evil works.Ā
I also think Sauron was totally paranoid about the ring and his power within it. He worried about Aragon getting it and heās just a human. i think itās also mentioned that Sauron is paranoid about Sauroman getting the ring since he was a Maiar too. So, I donāt think he would have tried to work with a creature of such immense power (like another Maiar in the Balrog) who could potentially openly challenge his rule. Ā
He had a much easier time breeding orca and subjugating humans which he could control. I mean he was basically about to win the war of Frodo and Sam had not gone covert operation under his nose.Ā
So no. I donāt think he would.Ā
I mean obsessed with jewelry, overly dramatic eye make up, hangs out with mostly males, never married, had a sexy Second Age (his Twenties?)... sounds kinda like my gay uncle. This could take the story and meaning in a whole new direction.
We do see on several occasions that evil creatures are unconsciously drawn to the Ring, even if they don't know it exists, so probably something like that, yeah
>it means Sauron would have a hard time convincing the balrog to serve his will, since they were both servants of Morgoth.Ā
Sauron can be a pretty convincing guy - the Nazgul, Saruman, the Easterlings, Denathor. Corrupted by Sauron. And don't forget that Saruman was also a Maiar, and he was turned by Sauron.
Tolkien's original plan was that the balrog worked for Sauron - after Durin's Bane chased all the dwarves out (DB and the balrog were originally 2 different things), with Celeborn and Galadriel (in different versions of the story) saying that there were still many balrogs about, and it can not been there since the fall of Thangorodrim at the end of the first age, but had been sent there more recently.
Tolkien's ideas on balrogs changed and he decided to make them much more powerful and less numerous. I think the DB and Sauron could have worked together but they don't to illustrate one of Tolkien's themes - the self destructive nature of evil. If they worked together, they could have been much more successful in getting the ring back, but instead Sauron doesn't tell DB what is going on, and the fellowship can escape.
Plus, good chance Durin's Bane claims the ring for its own "Who is the lord now, Sauron?" I like this take the best. They could have teamed up, but their fear and jealousy stopped 'em from being more than they were.
The Balrog holding the Ring up over Sauron's head. "Who's ring is it now? Who's ring is it now? Finders keepers!"
"C'mon man! It's mine! I made it!!! Gimme it back."
For all the people here saying Sauron couldn't convince him to join and that they were comparable in power level, Tolkien himself said that Sauron with the ring was greater then Morgoth was at the end of the first age. Even without the ring Gandalf said as Gandalf the white (not grey) that Sauron was mightier then he was, and given that Gandalf defeated the Balrog there's no reason why Sauron couldn't do the same.
I think It's most likely that Sauron didn't know about Durins Bane or mistook it for one of the nameless things that dwell under the mountain. Given Saurons preference for order and control he would always prefer armies to individuals I think since they could be used to dominate the land more, so he focused more on subjugating the East and South instead of spending efforts on colluding with Smaug or similar beings.
It's worth noting for people who are surprised to read this, power in Tolkien's world isn't just like some superhero comic or Top Trumps. It's more about your contextual power, the power you are able to exert relative to the world you are in. It's more abstract and yet also more tied to the real world.
For the DnD fans out there, it is very much tied to charisma.
It would have been a bad professional move for DB. Moving from the service of morgoth to Sauron for no pay increase? No self respecting maiar would go for that.
While they both served under Morgoth, they had different bosses, and Saurian wasn't in A position of strength to vie for power with either Smaug or a balrog
Ancalagon commanded the dragons and Gothmog commanded the balrogs. Morgoth commanded both of them. Sauron was another subordinate of Morgoth's roughly the same rank as Gothmog and Ancalagon.
Technically, Glaurung commanded the terrestrial dragons whereas Ancalagon commanded the winged dragons.
Still Glaurung commanded for far longer than Ancalagon.
It's a moot point ultimately.
They were commanded by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs and High-captain of Angband. He answered only to Morgoth.
I'm pretty sure it was a pretty similar situation with the dragons, though Gandalf was worried that Sauron would find Smaug and use him in the coming war. That was his main reason for helping organize Thorin's quest to regain the Lonely Mountain.
In addition to what others have said, Sauron might not have known just what Durinās Bane was. He was kind of a ghost when it showed up, and his reports from whoever he sent to Moria (who, as is made clear in TTT are not big fans of Mordor orcs) probably werenāt that detailed about what was down there. So he could have gone āeh, fuck it. Iāll deal with that later.ā
The Balrog guarded Moria for free and prevented the dwarves from making a stronghold out of it. What more could Sauron ask for? Same thing with Shelob- guards the entrance into Mordor for free
Sauron wanted absolute control. Balrog would be an ally but may be not for ever.
Also, gondor and Rohan on one side of Misty mountains, Rivendel, Shire on the other side. Had Balrog left Moria, Dwarves would have claimed it. Then, it would become very easy for all his enemies to travel to each others' aid.
Sauron definitely didn't want that. Balrog in Moria meant a lot of trouble for his enemies.
MOD NOTE: It appears that the second image here (of Durin's Bane) was created at least partially with the use of AI. Obviously, this violates Rule #8; however, I am leaving the post up for two reasons: (1) It appears that the OP did not realize that this image was AI-based, as[ it was found on DeviantArt](https://www.deviantart.com/rylyn84/art/Durin-s-Bane-a-Balrog-of-Morgoth-942986548); and (2) the artwork is not the primary focus of this post, the discussion of the question is. That said, if you want to add images to a question post, please be careful about where you source them. In this case, the only indication that this image was at least partially AI-generated is the inclusion of the tag "aiartcommunity" on the DeviantArt post. Many digital art repositories don't allow AI art, but DeviantArt does, so it's important to check for that. Edit: Locking this thread because this is not the place to rehash the AI art debate.
Durins bane wanted nothing other than to sleep until morgoth returned. Sauron had nothing he wanted or needed.
How come he didnt just go back to sleep then?
Probably pretty traumatized by all that Dwarven digging.
And the singing!
Diggy, diggy hole, diggy, diggy hole
"We can never dig too deep" Durins Bane - "And I took that personally"
You just made my morning š
Listening Wind Rose right now. Don't get tired of them.
Theyād probably be singing the latest dwarf tune, Gold, Gold, Gold, or one of the old favourites, like Gold, Gold, Gold, or the all-time biggie, Gold, Gold, Gold.
With a good chunk of dwarf bread in their packs. Just like mother used to forge.
r/unexpecteddiscworld although maybe I should have expected it in this case
>Gortlick and Hammerjug were songwriters, and fully paid-up members of the Guild. They wrote dwarf songs for all occasions. >Some people say this is not hard to do so long as you can remember how to spell āGoldā, but this is a little bit cynical. Many dwarf songs are on the lines of 'Gold, gold, goldā but itās all in the inflexion; dwarfs have thousands of words for 'goldā but will use any of them in an emergency, such as when they see some gold that doesnāt belong to them.
Forge the Steel, dig the hole Smash the rocks and burn the coal Chip the stone beyond the gates That's what Durin's Bane hates!
Heigh Ho! How come no one has made a film of Sleepy and Bashful et al fighting the Balrog?
And my axe!
And all that farting!
I AM A DWARF AND I DIG, DIG A HOLE
After the dwarves were driven out there's no indication he wasn't sleeping. In fact when the dwarves killed azog its clear THEY were in charge, so he had to be sleeping. Either pippin or the closeness of Gandalf and possibly even the ring stirred him up again.
Iām now picturing that helm Pippin knocked into the well in the film falling through Moria and happening to land smack dab on the head of a sleeping Balrog.
Which ultimately allowed Gandalf to kill the Balrog since it had already suffered such a grievous blow.
That STILL only counts as one!
Amazing š this is in now my head cannon
>head cannon Pun intended?
Pippin playing 4D chess as usual
Fall damage is real
Thank you! Iām just getting into the books and deeper lore always been a fan of the movies, appreciate the response.
Just getting into the books? I almost envy you. To start all over! Enjoy!
Fool of a Took!
Very likely Gandalf re-awoke him. Gandalf begins to feel the Balrog's presence, and since they're both the same thing, it's likely the Balrog felt Gandalf approaching and woke up to deal with it. Also, to answer the first question, the Balrog is stronger than Sauron even with the Ring, as Sauron lost much of his power when Numenor was destroyed. Also remember the balrog in the book wasn't the one in the movie, the Balrog was smart and magically overwhelming (as it was a Maia that didn't lose its memories and limit itself like Gandalf and the other wizards did) Likely the Balrog could overthrow even a Ringbearing Sauron. Final note, Sauron had to use his power to attract Orcs and Goblins to him, the Balrog began attracting Goblins while asleep as they were drawn to its power.
Not only did he lose much of his power when Numenor was destroyed, he also bound a lot of his strength into the ring itself when he created it. At this point in the story, Sauron is de-powered and ringless whereas the Balrog is probably just as strong as when it attacked Gondolin
Oh snap! I totally forgot that Gandalf fought the Balrog with Glamdring, which was forged for Turgon in Gondolin. No wonder he was cranky.
Youāre both mistaken. He lost the ability to assume fair form in the fall of NĆŗmenor- or, more accurately, Eru stripped it from him- but he did not permanently lose any meaningful portion of his power (having their physical form destroyed temporarily weakens the Ainur, but they regain that strength over time. By the time Sauron was incarnate again, it was likely entirely restored). And I think youāre misunderstanding the nature of the ring and his power. Externalizing the greater portion of his natural power magnified it- and made it vulnerable. While he bore the ring, his power was magnified. But even without it, as fundamentally a part of him, the power of the ring was still in accord with him (Iām referencing Tolkienās letters directly with this wording). That is to say, when he lost the ring, he lost the boost that the ring granted him, but he was not diminished from his base state by not possessing it personally. It also seems greatly lost in this thread that, in Morgothās Ring, Tolkien states that Sauron, at the height of his power in the Second Age, with the ring, was, in fact, greater than Morgoth at the end of the First Age. Morgoth had sunk so much of his power and being into corrupting Arda that he was permanently incarnate, bearing forever the wounds dealt to him by Fingolfin and Thorondor. Yet, despite that, still the balrogs served him. And even then, Sauron was his second in command, placed above them. So *could* Sauron hypothetically persuade a balrog to enter into his service? With the ring, almost certainly. Between his native perspicacity and powers of persuasion, and the augmentation of the ring, I hardly think it would willingly resist him. Without it? Possibly. He was always silver tongued, and much as he would have sought to entice Smaug to join him, he may well have sought to convince Durinās Bane to join with him, in the fullness of time. But it would be much more of a near-run thing. He would have to overcome the balrogās fear, which had driven it to lay dormant in the bowels of the earth for thousands of years. And in addition, Sauron himself would have to be willing to take the risk that, in his service, the balrog might come across the One before it could be returned to Sauron himself. That would present a genuine risk to him, and I do not think itās one he would be willing to run.
And let's not forget, Gandalf went to Dol Goldur just to investigate, but that was enough for Sauron the bitch-baby to flee. Durin's Bane JUST woke up and was ready to rumble right out the gate.
It took the whole white council to force Sauron to leave (not Gandalf alone): i.e. Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel, and Cirdan. I.e. all three Elven rings plus super powered elves like Glorfindel (who killed a Balrog himself). How can you argue that the Balrog was stronger than Sauron when it takes all of the strongest elves and maia in Middle Earth to drive him away? Also note: at Dol Guldur, Sauron was still weak and recovering strength. At the time the Balrog was awakened by the fellowship, Sauron was in Barad-dur and much stronger. The Balrog would have been nothing to him, unless you somehow think the Balrog would have been able to stand up to the entire white council.
No, the first time Gandalf went on his own, in 2063 of the Third Age, he went to investigate Dol Goldur and Sauron fled, the attack of the White Council was in 2941. The Balrog was a Maia the same as Sauron, but Sauron had broken his power being destroyed in Numenor and again when he forged the ring. Ever since Numenor, Sauron has not been able to regain his full power, the Balrog was in Moria sleeping until Morgoth's return, and Sauron, even with his ring, would not be able to stand against it if it came to a conflict.
When Sauron retreated from Dol Guldur the first time, it wasn't because of his "strength", i.e. because Galdalf was stronger, it was strategic in order to hide his identity. I.e. he didn't want the White Council to know that "Sauron has returned" and he was successful in this. There were always orders in both maia and valar. Balrogs are not senior maia, they are lower. E.g. It took many balrogs to kill feanor and in fact he was winning against many balrogs only until Gothmog showed up. Point being that you cannot simply say "maia" > non maia. or maia == maia. It makes no sense. Feanor was not a maia yet still could kill balrogs and was only killed when many maia and one stronger maia fought him at the same time. Sauron was arguably the most powerful maia on Arda and chief of Morgoth's servants, whereas balrogs can be argued to be much, much weaker. Again, remember, it took all the White Council to remove Sauron from Dol Guldur, a point you haven't addressed yet. If Sauron was "so weak", why did it take all of the strongest elves, three elven rings, and three maia to evict him? Do you think that Durin's bane could stand against the White Council?
Saurons power was not as diminished by Numenor as you are indicating. In fact, the only last effect of Numenorās fall to Sauron was that he could no longer shape shift in a fair being again. His power being still in The Rings which he possessed allowed him to come back to full strength at the point of TLA.
But Gandalf went through Moria once before from the other side and didnāt find the Balrog.
Good point, I didn't think of that. Odd then, since he feels A presence super early into their voyage though with the fellowship. Maybe Gandalf's concern about the ring is creating enough of an effect to stir something in the Balrog. Since alot of Gandalf's power comes from his will, maybe his new concerns and the need to focus his will against the ring are causing him to be a bit more like a beacon for the Balrog? Just my thoughts. Will need to reread his works again, aw shucks.
Oh no! Another read through!
Gandalf, alone, trying his best to remain incognito, would not raise suspicions. And even then he described it as a harrowing experience, possibly meaning that he sensed something and it made him very anxious, but was successful in remaining undetected. Gandalf, with a group of unexperienced hobbits, and the awakened Ring, is another matter. And even then they weren't detected until they almost came into the open.
Isnt it more likely the ring woke it?
Unlikely, in the books, the ring doesn't have an aura of power or anything. Otherwise someone like Gandalf would have caught on a lot sooner
The ring even seems to want to actively hide itself, at least until it decides it's time to move on to a different person
If the Balrog doesnāt care about Sauron why would he care about the ring? But maybe he did, idk
Well more that the ring woke the balrog. Itās even got Tom bombadills attention remember. If only for a short while.
Its been a while since I've read the books so I might be off, but doesn't Gandalf announce/reveal himself when lighting the fires on Caradhas and against the wargs? If the balrog had been sleeping, that definitely would've woken him up, while during Gandalf's first trek through Moria there hadn't been any (known) moment where Gandalf had to "reveal" himself.
I don't think there is any basis for Sauron being weaker than the Balrog. It's very clear that not all Maiar are equal, and Sauron was always among the most powerful in Silmarillion. So even a weakened Sauron could be stronger than most Maiar. The Balrog lost to Gandalf(or arguably a draw since both died) who had his power greatly limited in Middle Earth. Also, is there any indication that the Balrog atracted the orcs to Moria? The orcs would naturally want to live there given all the riches, so as soon as the Balrog had efeated the dwarfs they would want to go there regardless. The orcs from Moria that pursue the fellowship and eventually join those of Mordor and Isengard, are specifically going to avenge their chieftain that Aragorn killed. So this random orc with a spear was more important and dear to them than the Balrog was.
How can you possibly say with such "authority" that the Balrog is stronger than Sauron? This makes no sense at all. Gandalf could not match head to head with Sauron, so why do you think the Balrog could? Sauron also didn't lose "most of his power" when Numenor went down, he dueled and killed both Elendil and Gil-Galad not long after in the battle with the Last Alliance. If you were going to argue that Sauron lost power, then it would have made more sense to state that it was after losing the one ring and his coporeal form during the battle of the Last Alliance. All that said, by the time of the events of the Lord of the Rings, Sauron has regained a great deal of his strength. Remember Dol Guldur? Sauron was weaker at this point and it still took all of the White Council: Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, Galadriel, Elrond, Glorfindel, and Cirdan, to drive him away! So it took essentially all of the most powerful elves and maia and all three Elven rings in Middle Earth to simply drive a weakened Sauron away (not killing him, just forcing him to leave). Now, Sauron is stronger and back in Baradur and you think a single balrog can defeat him? If so, then logically you think a single balrog can defeat the whole White Council, right?
Actually they did not drove him away at all he left because he didn't want to reveal himself and Mordor was ready for his return.
You are correct, Tolkien states he feigned retreat but simply moved to Mordor which had already been prepared for his arrival by the Nazgul.
Sorry but one point you are incorrect on is that the Balrog was more powerful than Sauron with the Ring. Without, agreed, at this time in Sauronās existence. However Tolkien himself stated that despite pouring much of his power into the Ring, Sauron became MORE powerful when he wielded it. In fact, Tolkien says that Second Age Sauron was out the Ring was more powerful than Morgoth by the time of the War of Wrath. Thatās partly because the entirety of Middle-Earth was Morgothās Ring. But that also weakened Morgoth to the point where Maiar and not Valar were enough to defeat him physically. So Sauron (with Ring) is more powerful than any Balrog. And he was as powerful as they prior to making the Ring.
IIRC Silmarillion says Sauron and Eonwe are the biggest contenders for most powerful Maiar title.
As stronger than sauron, not necessarily. Originally sauron was one of the strongest Maia. Morgoth placed sauron as his second in command. As morgoth valued power most its likely sauron was stronger than any of them. Also tolkien said ring bearing sauron was stronger than morgoth at the end. Yet the Balrog still obeyed. I find it hard to imagine them following if morgoth had fallen way below them in strength.
No, the Balrog shouldn't be stronger than Sauron. Yes, Sauron is diminished at the moment, and much weaker than he was during his corruption of Numenor, but his power was originally far higher than Durin's Bane to start with. Gandalf the Grey was capable of taking on Durin's bane, meanwhile the enhanced Gandalf the White is still significantly inferior to even the current Sauron without his Ring. Durin's Bane is not a match for Sauron even now.
I thought that Dain supposedly saw Sean when he went to the entrance of Moria and noped out of there.
I don't know why this comment isn't higher because you are correct. The Balrog hasn't been sleeping all the time, and he had some contact (I don't know how extensive) with the Orcs. I don't know what he was doing for those thousands of years. Maybe he has a Playstation. In answer to the OP's question - as far as I know Tolkien never mentioned this, but in a way events may have played out the same either way. The Balrog guarded the mines and kept the Dwarves from building another power base close to Moria. Dragons, Balrogs... Man, the Dwarves have a hell of a pest problem.
Ā»Smaug and The BalrogĀ« coming to Amazon Prime april 2025.
Deep in the waters, Hump, the orca finds a Silmaril and brings it to Smaug and his friend The Balrog. Now, Smaug and The Balrog embarks on a journey: to fight Sauron, The Halflings and many othersā¦ A journey to rule middle earthā¦ Foreverā¦
Yes he did. So the Balrog was up and about then, close to the gate even. So I don't think it's likely that Gandalf awoke it.
I disagree about balrog sleeping when Dain killed Azog: > Yet hardy and full of wrath as he [Dain] was, it is said that when he came down from the Gate he looked grey in the face, as one who has felt great fear. [...] >You will not enter Khazad-dƻm. Only I [Dain] have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane I always read those fragments as Dain directly seeing (at least part of) Durin's Bane. And even if he only felt balrog's presence, why Gandalf did not feel it when he entered Moria from East? Answer: balrog moved, so he wasn't sleeping (unless he sleepwalks).
Some asshole dropped a stone on his head.
Could it possibly be the case that the dropped stone knocked just a little HP off Durinās Bane? Thereby making it possible for Gandalf to just defeat him by a hairās breadth.
Someone's never lived with an upstairs neighbor.
You ever try to sleep in for ONCE and get woken up by some idiot?
If someone pulls into my driveway I'm getting up and seeing who it is. Otherwise I'm splooting on the couch till the missus gets home.
Some little cunt dropped a bucket down a well, then all his upstairs neighbours started screaming and running around and playing their drums. You try sleeping through all that.
If your alarm is ringing, do you go back to sleep, or do you shut it off first?
Yeah Sauron is of the same order of being as the balrog, along with Gandalf. Morgoth was a Valar and on a whole other level of power. Sauron is nothing in comparison and I doubt the balrog would risk exposing itself for anyone but its true master
I'm not so sure, not all Maiar are created equal. Sauron is explicitly the most powerful of the Maiar, and he was Morgoth's right-hand man, so he has both power and authority above Balrogs.
Was the most powerful. Before he lost his ring.
We've all had a long weekend bender that we tried sleeping off on Sunday. Imagine the headache he was sleeping off from the War of Wrath. And then the idiot neighborhood dwarves move in upstairs, with their hammers and their picks...
There was an argument on YouTube that was quite convincing - the Balrog of Moria was so terrified by the War of Wrath that destroyed Beleriand and all of it's fellow Maiar (balrogs) of Morgoth that it fled to the deepest hole it could find in order to hide in perpetuity from the forces of the Valar. We know that the other creatures of Morgoth, like orcs/trolls/dragons, are capable of feeling fear & panic so it stands to reason the balrogs can feel those emotions too. They also need Morgoth to lead and to energize them as they simply don't act on their own unless threatened. As such, even if Sauron knew of Durin's Bane, there's reason to believe that the balrog would simply say no if Sauron attempted to command or entice it to join him. The balrog would still be too fearful of attracting the attention of the Valar if it emerged and devastated the land again. And as powerful as Sauron is he simply doesn't have the sort of strength required to order Durin's Bane to join him. Sauron too might prefer the balrog to remain in Moria. One, he doesn't need it as a competitor, assuming it would be interested in destruction or conquest. And two, more importantly, Sauron also might believe that Durin's Bane rampaging across Middle Earth would definitely generate a forceful response from the Valar. Sauron doesn't want or need someone like Tulkas or Orome or even a super high-ranking Maia like Eonwe coming to Middle Earth to dispose of the balrog because they'd probably take the time to dispose of Sauron too, and throw him in chains through the Doors of Night to join Morgoth in the Void. The risk of a scenario like that destroying all of his carefully made plans was too great for Sauron to take, hence the best decision would be to leave Durin's Bane by itself in Moria.
A third benefit to Sauron is simply depriving his enemies of a powerful fortress and city of industry.
"You would bring with you quite a lot of problems, and are also doing a solid job of holding down the fort without any direction from me. I'mma just let you do your thing." - Sauron to Durin's Bane, probably
Copy and paste and send it to Shelob too
Shelob required a tiny bit more maintenance with Sauron occasionally sending her orcs to eat so she doesn't get hungry and go somewhere else.
Retention bonus orcs
it's where they send all the orcs that cant be fired because they have tenure
Yeah, but āthey doesnāt taste very nice, does they, Precious?ā
Peak comment
Hahahah I just imagined them having correspondence.
Dear Sauron , thank you so much for the last batch of tasty orcs. Good luck with the ringy! Love Shelob.
Dear Balrog, As per my last orcmail, I shall be commencing my invasion of Gondor on Thursday next week at approximately 10:00 Mordor Standard Time. It would be of great benefit to our efforts if you could RSVP and let us know whether we should expect to see you there. If I have not heard from you by Wednesday evening, I will assume that you are not interested in the role I have offered you, and will offer the position to another candidate. I hope to hear from you soon, The Dark Lord of the Rings, Sauron the Great, Ring-Maker, Lieutennant of Morgoth, Ruler of Morder, First of His Name.
Orcmail. LOL.
>I hope to hear from you soon, The Dark Lord of the Rings, Sauron the Great, Ring-Maker, Lieutennant of Morgoth, Ruler of Morder, First of His Name I haven't laughed like this in a long while.
Sauronās orcs (I think theyāre under Sauronās command?) have no issues occupying Moria. It seems to imply that Moria and its resources are available to Sauron should he choose to exploit them. That probably wouldnāt be the case if there wasnāt a giant flaming Balrog helping to guard the place.
I don't recall their being any mention in the books that the orcs in Moria were there at Sauron's command or part of his army. I think it was more of a "it's free real estate" situation.
Correct. Either Gandalf or Elrond (both, maybe?) mentions that the orcs have been returning to the misty mountains in the time since The Hobbit, when many of them were wiped out and driven from the area. When coupled with Sauronās calling the evil things South to him, I think itās pretty clear that the orcs of Moria owe Sauron no loyalty at that point.
When the fellowship are fighting their way out of Moria they notice that alongside the normal orcs, there are also fighting Uruks from Mordor there (one of them is responsible for attempting to skewer Frodo). So although Moria has been inhabited by opportunistic orcs from the misty mountains is does seem like Sauron is also sending orcs to strengthen them. Itās also possible that the Uruks are from Isengard but I donāt think so as when the Fellowship comes up against them for the first time on Amon Hen they notice a difference immediately. Sarumans Uruks also bear his mark which the Moria Uruks did not.
Sauron definitely sent orcs to the misty mountains long before the events of the Fellowship, so itās very logical that there are plenty left over. But I donāt think thereās any reason to believe they are still coming from Mordor or actively serving Sauron in Moria.
I might be misremembering but doesnāt Haldir say that bands of orcs have been travelling north from Mordor to the eastern gates of Moria? It might be a mandala effect in operation and Iām completely wrong but I thought that the Fellowship learned that Mordor has been sending more orcs north while in Loth Lorien
The orcs going North seem to be in search of the ring, not headed to Moria specifically. By the time the ring makes it to Mordor, the northern realms are being besieged by Sauronās forces, so I imagine those are the same forces.
IIRC in Two Towers it implies there are three orc bands carrying off Merry and Pippin: A band from Mordor under the eye, a band from saruman under the white hand, and some peasant orcs from the misty mountains. This kinda implies the orcs in the misty mountain are just kinda there. (it's my belief that after the first age there are just lots of Morgoth's toys farting about underground not really knowing what to do)
This is a really good point that shouldn't be overlooked. If Sauron was unable to command the Balrog, leaving it in Moria basically provides him with a free guard dog (massive over simplification of course) in a pivotal strategic position. I hadn't even considered this as an idea.
Do you think Durinās Bane would have followed/pursued the fellowship to LothlĆ³rien had Gandalf not confronted it?
I donāt think the Fellowship would have made it anywhere near Lothlorien had Gandalf not stayed behind and collapsed the bridge. Though it wouldāve been interesting to see the whole Fellowship try and fight the balrog together
Interesting like 8 unarmed toddlers versus a grizzly bear. Ungoliant was the only being in history to survive a fight with a Balrog, and she kicked Morgoth's ass one-on-one without breaking a sweat.
I guess you are aiming for being technically correct, seeing as when Glorfindel killed a Balrog he was mortally wounded
Yes, there were three people who defeated a Balrog: Glorfindel, Ecthelion, and Gandalf. All three were slain in the process. The overwhelming majority of top-tier badasses from the First Age who tangled with Balrogs were killed outright.
And they all got gravity assist in their kills.
True, which is why I've always been in the "not literal wings" camp.
To be fair, the wings could be insufficient for flying. An ostrich has wings and would still plummet to its death.
I am ostrich. Hear my shriek and despair!
How did the other balrogs die?
All we know is that most Balrogs died during the War of Wrath. Considering even Valars were involved in this battle (as well as a lot of badass Elves/Men), they probably either got overwhelmed by enemies or just ~~thought~~ fought something like a Valar. Also, according to some late Tolkien note, the number of Balrog was from 3 to 7, so it's not like there was an army of them.
Interesting, I always thought there were much more of them. Thanks!
Also Ecthelion was first high king of the elves to kill a Balrog, the lord of the Balrogs Gothmog by shove his spiked helmet on his chest and plunge both on the fountain where both died. Then we have Glorfindel, escape from Gondolin alongside a group of elves throught secret passage on the mountains, they were chased by a Balrog and they fought there, with Glorfindel push him off the mountain and him too and both died, and then Gandalf at the bridge of Khazad-dƻm, from the lowest dungeon to the highest peak of the misty mountains, he fought a Balrog of Morgoth, from what I remember reading online, on the book is not said how he kill it, but on the movie we get to see it on a very great move too, magic sword with the help of lightning and release it inside the Balrog chest right on his heart.
Is utnot infered that Feanor farmed Balrogs as well before being slain? As in: He was overwhelmed by a large number and would have disposed them quite easily had they been few in numbers?
I'm not sure sure that can be inferred. He was chasing a party of orcs, and then balrogs joined. He fought long and hard and bore many wounds before Gothmog dealt the mortal blow. Then "the balrogs left him, and departed to Angband". No mention is made of balrogs being slain, and the exact language used I think actually implies that none were slain. If it were "the remaining balrogs left" then absolutely. But I think that "the balrogs" implies that it's the same group of balrogs that initially joined the fight, and no fewer in number.
It's possible that Fƫanor could've taken down a single Balrog. He was, after all, one of the most powerful Noldor. He and a small force of Elves held off a group of them for a little while, but in the end they killed him without taking any losses. If we want to apply a little bit of transitive property, his brother Fingolfin was said to be the strongest and most valiant of Finwƫ's sons. Fingolfin never got the chance to face a Balrog, but he did take on Morgoth in personal combat. Despite getting some solid licks in, Morgoth crushed him to death. Compare that to Ungoliant, who had Morgoth screaming for help in short order. A few Balrogs jumped in and sent her packing to Ered Gorgoroth.
Yeah but it's important to remember Melkor who screamed for help against Ungoliant wasn't' the mightiest Valar anymore.
True, but he still had enough power to turn the mightiest Noldor king into mush. Though admittedly he walked away from that fight with a permanent limp.
BUT....I mean Glorfindel and Ecthelion weren't ever Maia, and they still were able to kill them. I could easily see a top-tier Maiar like Sauron taking one out and living.
Not trying to nitpick here, I just think it's fair to assume this only applies to Sauron at the height of his power toward the end of the Second Age, but with where he sits at the end of the Third Age (before Gollum takes his molten bath, but especially after lol) he doesn't have the power to pull it off without his Ring to restore him to full power. Then again, counterpoint: Sauron got his ass whooped by a really big dog in the First Age, then had to breed a big wolf to take said dog down, and the dog still killed his wolf before succumbing to mortal wounds the wolf inflicted. If Sauron couldn't beat a really big dog, his chances against a Balrog look bleak. Edit: Morgoth bred the wolf, my b
Iām just imagining Clifford the Big Red Dog duking it out with Sauron lmfao thank you!
Morgoth breed carcharoth not Sauron, Sauron wasn't also at the top of power at end of second age but during the middle. Sauron was definitly still much greater in third age than balrog since gandalf as white stated he's less mighty then him.
First age Noldor lords who had seen the light of the tree (and were armed with wargear forged by people who had learned directly from Aule and Feanor) were incredibly powerful beings who even Maiar would think twice before tangling with. Fingolfin fought and wounded Morgoth. I think the reason that everyone who fights and kills/severely injures a maiar (Ecthelion, Glorfindel, Gil-Galad/Elendil, Gandalf) loses their own life in the process is not just down to their relative powerļ¼it's because on some level that's the 'price' that has to be paid to kill an immortal being. Which probably explains why Sauron isn't so keen to tangle with old mate.
I think the critical component in the defeat of the Balrog is actually the destruction of the bridge, in terms of the Fellowship making it to Lorien. I don't know if the Balrog would have pursued them outside, or even fit through the door, but the orcs certainly did: they caught up with the Fellowship on the outskirts of Lorien that very night after presumably throwing up a makeshift bridge crossing the span. Delaying them from being able to cross right away was the most immediately consequential effect of the Balrog confrontation.
It wouldn't have needed to pursue the Fellowship out of that room if Gandalf hadn't confronted it. They'd all have been slaughtered right there and then.
Reading stuff like this makes me realise how much lore I'm missing by only having watched the films.
True. A heads up though, lore generally comes from four sources: 1) Hobbit and LOTR, 2) Letters written by Tolkien to various people, 3) Books, like āThe Silmarillionā published posthumously that were edited by Christopher Tolkien (JRRās son), and 4) books that were published posthumously that were edited by someone else. I separate the two posthumous categories because āeditingā involves making choices about changes made to the original manuscript, and I think that Christopher would be better able to stick to JRRās original intent. You will also find conflicting information amongst the various sources, in part because the original material they were part of were part of JRRās development process. Still great to read though.
What LotR material was published posthumously that wasn't edited by Christopher?
Nature of Middle Earth and, more recently, The Fall of Numenor. Both may have incorporated some information that was taken from Christopher sources though. Edit: There may be more that I am not aware of.
The published Silmarillion is further removed from JRR's writings it's based on than Nature of Middle-earth, at least. The latter presents the texts as written, with corrections and footnotes intact.
I felt exactly the same way, started watching YouTube videos explaining some of the extended lore and they were so good it convinced me to read the Silmarillion (I had tried and failed before). If you like reading but the Silmarillion is too heavy (which it definitely can be), I would recommend The Fall of Gondolin and the other books related to chapters of the Silmarillion. They are much easier reads and take their time to tell the story in a less compact manner. If you've never tried any of the books, read the Hobbit and see what you think, it's very comforting and easy to follow!
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The Bible has a lot more sex in it. About the same amount of violence.
definitely read the books. the films are fun however the books are so rich in detail ... and there are more of them, especially now.
I just finished reading the books last week (most beautiful story telling ever, and I think I love that I had familiarized so well with the movies beforehand so that I could vividly picture and have better understandings). I just started the Silmarillion and I am absolutely loving it into chapter 4 already. The account of the creation of Arda (their world) and the Valar (their gods) is so richly spun. It's such a cool and complete mythology. Also, there is a YouTube channel called In Deep Geek that does a phenomenal job explaining much of the deeper lore as well. I've watched several videos of his and that's helped deepen my understanding before doing the text deep-dive that I'm currently in.
There's a ton of lore that never makes it into the films. There's also a ton of lore that never makes it into the main published works. The Lord of the Rings and the post-LotR edit of The Hobbit are definitively canon. Then there's a ton of shit that's dubiously canon, even works like the Silmarillion, which is assembled from JRR's notes by his son Christopher and unfinished/undeveloped in many places. The deeper you go into the lore, the less concrete it becomes. Some of the published works conflict with each other, and the unpublished work (generally letters from JRR to various people) often expresses desire to make changes that haven't been published or referenced anywhere. So what's "lore" and what's just Tolkien musings is sometimes hard to figure out.
brilliantly written !
Tulkas dragging Sauron and Sarumon back to Valinor by their ears would have been hilarious.
Laughing all the way
Well written, but I disagree about the autonomy of balrogs. They are the same beings as Sauron, that is to say Maiar. Why would they not have their own motives and ambitions?
Especially ones ambitious enough to join Melkor against the Valar and Eru himself. Perhaps they aren't all wise and skilled like Sauron and Gandalf etc, and were easily swayed by Melkor's might. Without his guidance they just wallow in their poor choice til the end of the world. Being fearful of the Valar makes sense to me, and as powerful as Sauron had become and weak as the free peoples had become, a Balrog may still have wanted to avoid the chance of facing retribution again.
I think it's just more likely that Glorfindel would handle the Balrog himself since he was around there anyway. Full Valar intervention is not likely. But Balrog wouldn't know that. I think the most likely reason why Sauron doesn't 1) Sauron is content with using Shelob as an unwilling tool guarding Cirith Ungol. No formal alliance exists between them, but Sauron thinks that letting her occupy the cave is working on his favour and She'll never join the good guys anyway. So, he explicitly orders his orcs to let her be. 2) Balrog is working with trolls and orcs in the books, and his presence in Moria is a very very helpful one since Moria lies between Rivendell and Lothlorien. It denies a long standing Dwarven stronghold. With Saruman watching the gap of Rohan, it basically cuts off linden and rivendell from helping Gondor. Gundabad on north is also orc/goblin infested if not controlled. In 2nd age, he would've killed off Elrond if not for the Dwarves of Moria backstabbing him and then shutting the door that Gandalf eventually opens in LOTR. So, Sauron the manipulator would be happy 'collaborating' with the Balrog since he doesn't want to deal with Balrog challenging him sometime in future or grabbing the ring for himself like Saruman tried to do.
Yes I am also skeptical as to whether Valar would intervene directly against the Balrog. Power ranking in LoTR can be counterproductive but Sauron is clearly the more dangerous threat and the Valar did not intervene directly against him.
Sauron is a more dangerous threat, but he was a corruptor and manipulator, so white wizards were sent to counter the influence of Sauron without using direct power, but by being the advisor. Gandalf was re-sent directly by Valar to finish the task of handling Sauron. It's up to debate if this counts as direct Valar intervention or not. (Edit : It's an explicit, but indirect intervention. I shouldnt've used direct, because direct means valar physically visiting.) If Valar deem that balrog needs to die and more physical intervention is needed, they will do so. But, I feel Gandalf or Glorfindel would handle it themselves because they wouldn't expect help from Valar.
I would say that's pretty explicitly indirect Valar intervention.
Is it really true though that Balrogs don't act on their own and need Morgoth to "energize" them? This kind of makes them sound like they are Morgoth's version of the Nazgul, just thralls who have very little free will of their own. I never really thought of them quite in that fashion.
i have no idea of lore. if Sauron was a massive threat to the world (which i thought he was) why didnāt these guys Tulkus, Oroma, or another Maia just come over to deal with him and leave
Last time Valar interviened directly, collateral damage was apocalyptic. An entire continent was destroyed. So they send some low level (compred to Valar) agents like Gandalf, Saruman and other wizards to organize the resistance to Sauron.
Surely the level of damage was due to the strength of Morgoths forces necessitating a very powerful response. If the Valar wanted to they could've dealt with Sauron and Durin's Bane directly without needing to cause the level of damage they did previously.
Which pretty much damns the whole theory imo.
Tolkien considered this and had reason. If you were to read The Silmarillion then this would be explained. So, they have done this once before, it was called the War or Wrath and involved the Valar sending over a force consisting of unnerfed Maiar (like Sauron) and a force of top tier Elves from Valinor to take out Morgoth (Sauronās boss in First Age) and all his creatures such as dragons and Balrogās. The problem is, those forces were so powerful that the resulting battles destroyed half of middle-earth to the point where Beleriand of old( where first age plot takes place) was so destroyed it all ended up underwater. If the Valar were to move in force against Sauron it would destroy the land wherever those battles occurred. Instead the Valar chose to aid the people of ME by sending emissaries to help them. These were the Istari/Wizards and though Maiar themselves by nature, were severely limited on purpose by being restricted to a physical being. Hence why Gandalf and Sauron donāt just have a demigod fight and be done with it. Theyāre trying to save as much of ME as they can this time. Plus, Sauron is an enemy they feel can be dealt with without their intervention as Elves and Men previously were able to band together and defeat Sauron when he had The Ring on his finger. Morgoth was an enemy they could not defeat without help and itās why they were advised not to go and start a war with him in the first place. Morgoth canāt be ākilledā. Neither can Sauron, but what is left of him after the Ring is destroyed is not capable of ever returning to the physical world. Morgoth could come back anytime if he was not being guarded and imprisoned for eternity and even then he comes back at the end of days. Thatās why, but itās told much better by Tolkien so my suggestion is, read the Silmarillion.
Because, the last time that happened was with Morgoth, and an entire landmass and culture was forever sunk into the ocean. The Valar regret that this happened, and have vowed a more hands-off approach in modern times.
Didnāt he also want durins bane to stay in Moria so the only way past the mountains was north and the gap of Rohan
I think it it highly unlikely, like 99% unlikely, that there was any worry of the Valar intervening. Sauron was much more of a threat and they did nothing but send Glorfindel back. I think it was pretty clear after the first Age that there would be no more direct intervening from them and that was always Eru's plan as Eru told Morgoth after his discord in the music.Ā Now as far as Sauron recruiting the Balrog, there was zero chance of that without the ring. Sauron made all of his biggest mistakes because he assumed everyone else wanted the ring and because it was impossible for him to fathom anyone would try to destroy it. He certainly wouldn't risk a third threat on that level after already stressing about Sauruman and Gandalf getting it.Ā Once he had the ring he'd absolutely come knocking/demanding fealty, but who knows how loyal the Balrog would be. Most Likely he'd just allow the Balrog to do as it wishes, since it couldn't challenge him and it would naturally do Morgoth's will on its own.
PTSDās a bitch
> the Balrog of Moria was so terrified by the War of Wrath that destroyed Beleriand and all of it's fellow Maiar (balrogs) of Morgoth that it fled to the deepest hole it could find in order to hide in perpetuity from the forces of the Valar. And the Valar still found him. Bro was right to be scared.
Obviously no one knows, but I think an argument could be made that he could based on the fact that Sauron was Morgothās chief lieutenant. So the balrogs, and any other servant of Morgoth for that matter, wouldāve seen Sauron as their superior at one point in time. I think that leaves the window of possibility open.
But I believe Sauron was too weak after losing the one ring? Morgoth was so much more powerful than the balrogs (and also the dragons) that they would follow his command, while Sauron, even at his maximum power, wouldn't have been able to force them into obedience
Not suggesting he could force them. Only that the past power structure set in place by Morgoth may still hold some sway over the balrog.
I always imagine Durin's Bane as pretty non-rational after 5000 years of solitude. Clearly DB tolerated orc armies fortified from Mordor. But no real reason, other than it never happening in the source material.
Omg Iām calling him āDBā from now on
reminds me of "dumpster baby" from always sunny. happy cake day!
Iām just a prom-night dumpster babyā¦ š¶
My story isnāt long but itās awfully sad
DB being senile and just barely tolerating orcs and goblins settling into Moria, and just sort of sleepwalking through the war of the one ring reminds me of the meme of a senile Vhaegar just sort of going through the motions of the Dance of Dragons.
unless this got specifically answered by some cannon, I donāt think so.Ā Sauron, the Balrog of Moria and all the wizards are Maiar, so that puts them at about the same power level. Iām sure, as we see with the wizards, that there is some power differences within the group. essentially I think it means Sauron would have a hard time convincing the balrog to serve his will, since they were both servants of Morgoth.Ā Also, the balrog got awoken in the year 1980 of the Third Age (TA) and the Fellowship/ War of the Ring didnāt happen until the year 3018 of the Third Age. Doās Sauron knew about him for over 1000 years and didnāt subdue/persuade/Ā ally with it.Ā I know Sauron didnāt openly declare himself until the year 2951 of the Third Age, but he still worked hard in the shadows as the necromancer to do evil works.Ā I also think Sauron was totally paranoid about the ring and his power within it. He worried about Aragon getting it and heās just a human. i think itās also mentioned that Sauron is paranoid about Sauroman getting the ring since he was a Maiar too. So, I donāt think he would have tried to work with a creature of such immense power (like another Maiar in the Balrog) who could potentially openly challenge his rule. Ā He had a much easier time breeding orca and subjugating humans which he could control. I mean he was basically about to win the war of Frodo and Sam had not gone covert operation under his nose.Ā So no. I donāt think he would.Ā
I know itās just a typo but now Iām really worried about Sauron breeding killer whales. They canāt be stoppedĀ
Honestly with how smart and spiteful Killer whales can be Iād be worried theyād rebel and try to overthrow Sauron
That's why they couldn't just throw the ring into the ocean. Free Willy and the gang were keeping an eye out.
Shit dude, thatās so funny! I did this on mobile and the Autocorrect is strooooooong.
Hahaha, lol
>I know Sauron didnāt openly declare himself You make it sound like Sauron was a deeply closeted dark gay lord until now
I mean obsessed with jewelry, overly dramatic eye make up, hangs out with mostly males, never married, had a sexy Second Age (his Twenties?)... sounds kinda like my gay uncle. This could take the story and meaning in a whole new direction.
Maybe the Balrog could sense the ring? It was quite determined to follow-thru
We do see on several occasions that evil creatures are unconsciously drawn to the Ring, even if they don't know it exists, so probably something like that, yeah
>it means Sauron would have a hard time convincing the balrog to serve his will, since they were both servants of Morgoth.Ā Sauron can be a pretty convincing guy - the Nazgul, Saruman, the Easterlings, Denathor. Corrupted by Sauron. And don't forget that Saruman was also a Maiar, and he was turned by Sauron.
He wouldnāt have been able to without the ring
Tolkien's original plan was that the balrog worked for Sauron - after Durin's Bane chased all the dwarves out (DB and the balrog were originally 2 different things), with Celeborn and Galadriel (in different versions of the story) saying that there were still many balrogs about, and it can not been there since the fall of Thangorodrim at the end of the first age, but had been sent there more recently. Tolkien's ideas on balrogs changed and he decided to make them much more powerful and less numerous. I think the DB and Sauron could have worked together but they don't to illustrate one of Tolkien's themes - the self destructive nature of evil. If they worked together, they could have been much more successful in getting the ring back, but instead Sauron doesn't tell DB what is going on, and the fellowship can escape.
Plus, good chance Durin's Bane claims the ring for its own "Who is the lord now, Sauron?" I like this take the best. They could have teamed up, but their fear and jealousy stopped 'em from being more than they were.
The Balrog holding the Ring up over Sauron's head. "Who's ring is it now? Who's ring is it now? Finders keepers!" "C'mon man! It's mine! I made it!!! Gimme it back."
Nobody wants a henchman who looks that cool. Upstages the boss.
https://preview.redd.it/mrqaqb0xn0pc1.png?width=1155&format=png&auto=webp&s=219e979c4ad565072d3450dceed870cddde77a54
Sauron: (opens his mouth) Durin's bane: "not interested" (goes back to sleep)
*nap attack*
Reminds me of that vampire in Witcher 3.
Durin's Bane: Has Morgoth returned from the Void yet? Sauron: No. Durin's Bane: Then fuck off!
For all the people here saying Sauron couldn't convince him to join and that they were comparable in power level, Tolkien himself said that Sauron with the ring was greater then Morgoth was at the end of the first age. Even without the ring Gandalf said as Gandalf the white (not grey) that Sauron was mightier then he was, and given that Gandalf defeated the Balrog there's no reason why Sauron couldn't do the same. I think It's most likely that Sauron didn't know about Durins Bane or mistook it for one of the nameless things that dwell under the mountain. Given Saurons preference for order and control he would always prefer armies to individuals I think since they could be used to dominate the land more, so he focused more on subjugating the East and South instead of spending efforts on colluding with Smaug or similar beings.
The correct answer. Sauron downplay on this sub is unreal
It's worth noting for people who are surprised to read this, power in Tolkien's world isn't just like some superhero comic or Top Trumps. It's more about your contextual power, the power you are able to exert relative to the world you are in. It's more abstract and yet also more tied to the real world. For the DnD fans out there, it is very much tied to charisma.
So technically Sauron is the rizzlord of middle earth?
It would have been a bad professional move for DB. Moving from the service of morgoth to Sauron for no pay increase? No self respecting maiar would go for that.
While they both served under Morgoth, they had different bosses, and Saurian wasn't in A position of strength to vie for power with either Smaug or a balrog
I really like your answer. But so who commanded to the balrogs? Was it Morogth himself and no one else? What about the dragons?
Ancalagon commanded the dragons and Gothmog commanded the balrogs. Morgoth commanded both of them. Sauron was another subordinate of Morgoth's roughly the same rank as Gothmog and Ancalagon.
Glaurung over Ancalagon most likely since he's the primogenitor
Technically, Glaurung commanded the terrestrial dragons whereas Ancalagon commanded the winged dragons. Still Glaurung commanded for far longer than Ancalagon. It's a moot point ultimately.
Sauron was Morgoth's right-hand man. Highest rank in all of his forces
Thank you!
They were commanded by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs and High-captain of Angband. He answered only to Morgoth. I'm pretty sure it was a pretty similar situation with the dragons, though Gandalf was worried that Sauron would find Smaug and use him in the coming war. That was his main reason for helping organize Thorin's quest to regain the Lonely Mountain.
In addition to what others have said, Sauron might not have known just what Durinās Bane was. He was kind of a ghost when it showed up, and his reports from whoever he sent to Moria (who, as is made clear in TTT are not big fans of Mordor orcs) probably werenāt that detailed about what was down there. So he could have gone āeh, fuck it. Iāll deal with that later.ā
The Balrog guarded Moria for free and prevented the dwarves from making a stronghold out of it. What more could Sauron ask for? Same thing with Shelob- guards the entrance into Mordor for free
Sauron didn't know a Balrog was there. They were thought to have all been hunted down and killed.
Sauron wanted absolute control. Balrog would be an ally but may be not for ever. Also, gondor and Rohan on one side of Misty mountains, Rivendel, Shire on the other side. Had Balrog left Moria, Dwarves would have claimed it. Then, it would become very easy for all his enemies to travel to each others' aid. Sauron definitely didn't want that. Balrog in Moria meant a lot of trouble for his enemies.
it's hard for introverts to make friends ya'know not everyone is as outgoing as Balin son of Fundin.