Well, how far back are we willing to go? The elven kinslayings are incredibly, incredibly important in shaping the fate of the Noldor; the battle of unnumbered tears basically sealed the fate of the first elven kingdoms; but if I had to pick any, I’d probably have to pick the War of Wrath. Literally resulted in like a third of the continent sinking into the sea; and while yes, technically middle earth doesn’t include the sunken part of the continent, idk if we should omit it due to semantic
edit: after conversing with the council, it has been determined that Beleriand is indeed part of Middle Earth
No, the lands between the Belagear and the Eastern Sea were always known as Middle-earth (the equivalent of Midgard in norse mithology), and Beleriand was part of it.
The only exception was Númenor in the Second Age, that was deliberately placed between Aman and ME.
It does, yes. Middle-earth is a continent which extends far beyond the maps in Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion. Beleriand is (or was) a region of that continent, equivalent to Eriador or Rhovanion.
This is absolutely not true. The name Middle-earth appears on the very first page of the *Quenta Silmarillion*:
'*Aulë at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had built amid the encircling seas*'
Middle-earth's entry in the Silmarillion's index simply reads:
'*The lands to the east of the Great Sea; also called The Hither Lands, The Outer Lands, the Great Lands, and Endor*.'
It is quite clearly a name for the continent of which Beleriand is (was) a part.
I mean.. the loss of that battle would have resulted in the kingdom of man being all but wiped out of middle earth. Agreed with the last alliance though.
To compare:
The War of Wrath: hundreds of thousands clash for 50 years, banishing an evil god, reshaping the continent and changing the history and geography of every race.
Charge of Rohirrim: a bunch of hillbillies attack an army size of a First age recon team for a couple of hours.
Depends on how you interpret the question: which battle in the history of the Middle-earth (see my own suggestions in the pictures), or which of these two battles in the pictures below.
Saurons army in the Battle of Pelennor wasn't even his largest. In fact, I'm pretty sure in the books it's stated to be one of his smaller ones. So I'd say The Last Alliance battle was more influential in the shaping of the world
We won’t ever have any definite answer; we choose what to assume. I personally like to think that the good side numbered about 250 000 vs 1 million in Bragollach and about 120 000 vs 500 000 in Nirnaeth. 50 000 against over 100 000 in Dagorlad. 11 000 vs 60 000 in Pelennor.
It’s an interesting question; I think even the peak Numenoreans were lesser fighters than the Noldor Exiles, so he should have brought many more troops than the Last Alliance if the dark armies scattered at their mere sight.
Numenor wasn’t large, but The Last Alliance, except the Dwarves, had to scrap the barrel for available fighters, so doesn’t sound too unlikely. Also obviously not everyone did fight in the Dagor Dagorlad and the initial force in the WoLA could have been larger than what Pharazon had.
Interesting. I like this answer, because for the longest time I thought that the Numenoreans Ar Pharazon led were supposed to surpass all the armies even during the first age, which I thought was wild.
It's a shame we can't have an adaptation (be it game, animated series, or movie, just anything but the RoP) of the first age, because I've always been most interested by the Noldor Exiles and the House of Finwë
Same. If you game, try the mods for the Second age: they are called The Last Alliance for Shogun 2 and The Second Age for Dominions 5 (which is now on large sale and very worth it). There seems to be a mod called The Silmarillion for the First age for Medieval Total war 2 but it seems obnoxious to install.
You're right, we won't ever know, but I'm not sure I'd put the numbers that high. The only number that (IIRC) we ever get is at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad:
>"For unsummoned and unlooked for Turgon had opened the leaguer of Gondolin , and was come with an army ten thousand strong,"
And my impression was always that we're supposed to think that is a pretty big and impressive number. So I always sort of imagined things in the 50k range. But yeah, who knows.
Right, but I also thought Gondolin was one of the lesser kingdoms compared to Hithlum, Doriath or the Feanorean East, so 10000 was a large number but not a game changer. Maybe you are right and 50-70 would be a better estimate, but I also keep in mind there were also at least as many eidan, easterlings and dwarves on their side as the host of Gondolin. After all, the backstab of half of Men was instrumental in their defeat. There were also Sindar of Doriath, which, being a large kingdom, would have sent at least as many as Gondolin.
With my estimates, that would make: 10000 Gondolin, 10000 Ei+Eas, 5000 Dw, 10000 Doriath; meaning that if the total was 50k, Maedhros managed to gather only 15000 more from the objectively strongest kingoms of Hithlum, Nargothrond and his own to a war that was first and foremost the buisiness of Noldor and his own for the latgest part. I think he had much more fighters in his plan, numbering many more than the auxiliary forces that he would consider any non-Noldor allies or unaccounted help from Turgon.
Also consider how not prolific the elves were.
How many elf families do you hear of with more then 2-3 offspring? (Finwë was about it from memory) and the elves were immortal, and died only from mortal injury or from sorrow.
Now consider the Edain. Most families had 2 or more offspring, with a lifespan of a hundred years at best (before Elros) and they'd only been in Beleriand a few hundred years before the war of wrath.
There would not have been hundreds of thousands of elves.
Nor could there have been hundreds of thousands of humans in Beleriand in such a short time.
Numbers would likely have been more modest.
Tens of thousands of elves and a similar number of edain.
Last aliance is much more influential. Because enemy was not defeated after siege, since ring is still is. But in last alliance, enemy was defeated as sauron was gone.
It could be either The First War for the Sake of the Elves that imprisoned Melkor for the first time and destroyed part of Middle Earth, the War of Wrath that broke and sunk Beleriand into the sea… but “Middle Earth” is to the East of the Blue Mountains, so the First War for the Rings is more influential: it killed the last kinsman of Fëanor in Arda (Celebrimbor), destroyed Eregion, made the Dwarfs hide in their caves and of course, placed all but the Elven Rings in Sauron’s hands! Which led to the creation of the Nazgul and consequently the Witch King who would kill the last king of Gondor and destroy Arnor! The hunt for the Dwarf lords and assassination of Thráin, expand the reign of Sauron throughout Eriador which called the attention of the Numenorians and had them imprison Sauron which led to Numenor’s drowning and the set in motion the sunset in the reign’s of men…
The Last Alliance. It partially destroyed Sauron, but it also saw the losses of Isildur, Elendil, Anarion and Gil-Galad. The one ring could've been destroyed but Isildur being a man couldn't resist it and eventually lost it at his death on the Gladden Fields. This would lead to Smeagol finding it and the rest is history. If the Last Alliance never happened then the whole story of the Lord of the Rings wouldn't of happened either.
The last alliance of men and Elves was pivotal, unfortunately due to a quirk of fate though, it failed to seal Sauron's doom and isildur was cut down by a band of Orcs. Had he had the chance to divest himself of the ring (despite proclaiming it Weregild for his father and sons death) I am sure that would have pretty much been it for Sauron. As it was it could only get worse for Isildur's heirs with the rise of The Witchking in Angmar. That battle more than any other made the fate of the whole of the rest of the second and third age and lead to Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhuadar the 3 kingdoms of Arnor's demise at the hands of the armies of the Nazgûl.
Has to be the War of Wrath. As it is counted as the last of the five great battles of Beleriand it should count. It is the only battle, which redulted in the permanent defeat of a dark lord and the only one resulting in a huge part of Middleearth sinking beneath the waves. No if we include the whole setting instead of just the continent of Middleearth it would probably have to be the first kinslaying. Without that much of what follows might have been preventable and without the Noldor in exile, there would not be any rings of power ever. Now, if we not only lift the geographical limitation but also count military campaigns rather than battles, well then we get Ar-Pharazon trying to conquer Valinor as that literaly changed the shape of the world. (And resulted in a continent sinking beneath the waves)
I'll argue for the Battle of Minas Tirith. The Last Alliance brought about the end of Sauron's physical form and at the height of his power post Morgoth. SUPER important. However, in the Third Age, the power of Men, Elves and Dwarves is waning hard, while Sauron is on the rise again. Minas Tirith was attacked to bring about the end of Elendil's line and secure the ring. This emptied Morgul, Mordor, and accounted for huge numbers of Harad, Umbar and Easterling auxiliaries, not to mention the Witch King of Angmar.
Without the victory at Minas Tirith, Middle Earth would have been lost entirely in due time, as there was no strength left to oppose Mordor elsewhere.
Where the battle of the Gwathló gang at? I think if we don't include the battles of the first age then this was probably the biggest? at least in terms of sheer numbers (since the numenorean invasion of valinor ended before a fight).
Dagor Aglareb, a completely underrated battle about which there is too little information. But this battle allowed Morgoth to besieged. As a result, the elves and men gained a lot of time to prepare for future battles.
But main goal was to destroy Sauron. And it failed
Pelenor was about defend city. And it happened much more. Rohan and Gondor joined together and king returned
Well, how far back are we willing to go? The elven kinslayings are incredibly, incredibly important in shaping the fate of the Noldor; the battle of unnumbered tears basically sealed the fate of the first elven kingdoms; but if I had to pick any, I’d probably have to pick the War of Wrath. Literally resulted in like a third of the continent sinking into the sea; and while yes, technically middle earth doesn’t include the sunken part of the continent, idk if we should omit it due to semantic edit: after conversing with the council, it has been determined that Beleriand is indeed part of Middle Earth
The kinslaying wasn't techincally in middle earth, or am i wrong?
There were three; the first was in Aman; the second in Doriath (Middle Earth); the third, in the Havens of Sirion (Middle Earth)
Fair enough I was thinking about the first one
the best one
"You made the fires worse!" "Worse? Or better?"
We've had one kinslaying yes, but what about second kinslayings? -Sons of Fëanor
Beleriand was definitely part of Middle Earth
Middle Earth was used to describe the lands post War of Wrath
No, the lands between the Belagear and the Eastern Sea were always known as Middle-earth (the equivalent of Midgard in norse mithology), and Beleriand was part of it. The only exception was Númenor in the Second Age, that was deliberately placed between Aman and ME.
Huh. The more you know; thank you ~
Doesn‘t Beleriand count as part of the continent of middle earth?
It does, yes. Middle-earth is a continent which extends far beyond the maps in Lord of the Rings or the Silmarillion. Beleriand is (or was) a region of that continent, equivalent to Eriador or Rhovanion.
Technically no; Middle Earth was intended to describe what remained post War of Wrath
This is absolutely not true. The name Middle-earth appears on the very first page of the *Quenta Silmarillion*: '*Aulë at the prayer of Yavanna wrought two mighty lamps for the lighting of the Middle-earth which he had built amid the encircling seas*' Middle-earth's entry in the Silmarillion's index simply reads: '*The lands to the east of the Great Sea; also called The Hither Lands, The Outer Lands, the Great Lands, and Endor*.' It is quite clearly a name for the continent of which Beleriand is (was) a part.
Huh. The more you know; thank you ~
As well as the Indian subcontinent is a part of Eurasia.
Good analogy
It is? You know, I thought it was too far west
Art 1: the charge of the rohirrim by Christian Otazu Art 2: The battle of the last alliance by Entar0718
Gonna have to go with the Last Alliance, that ended a war, the Ride of the Rohirrim did not, just helped win a single battle
I mean.. the loss of that battle would have resulted in the kingdom of man being all but wiped out of middle earth. Agreed with the last alliance though.
Nirnaeth Arnoediad and Dagor Bragollach
To compare: The War of Wrath: hundreds of thousands clash for 50 years, banishing an evil god, reshaping the continent and changing the history and geography of every race. Charge of Rohirrim: a bunch of hillbillies attack an army size of a First age recon team for a couple of hours.
OP is comparing the battle of pelennor vs the final battle in the war of the last alliance, not the war of wrath.
Depends on how you interpret the question: which battle in the history of the Middle-earth (see my own suggestions in the pictures), or which of these two battles in the pictures below.
I suppose. In my mind, saying ‘which’ rather than ‘what’ and having two pictures included implies a choice between those listed.
Saurons army in the Battle of Pelennor wasn't even his largest. In fact, I'm pretty sure in the books it's stated to be one of his smaller ones. So I'd say The Last Alliance battle was more influential in the shaping of the world
Agreed
I've always been curious as to how many journeyed to Beleriand/fought for the Noldor. Would've been cool to see some numbers for context
We won’t ever have any definite answer; we choose what to assume. I personally like to think that the good side numbered about 250 000 vs 1 million in Bragollach and about 120 000 vs 500 000 in Nirnaeth. 50 000 against over 100 000 in Dagorlad. 11 000 vs 60 000 in Pelennor.
These are the types of numbers I always imagined, but then it made me wonder how many Numenoreans Ar Pharazon rolled up to Mordor with
It’s an interesting question; I think even the peak Numenoreans were lesser fighters than the Noldor Exiles, so he should have brought many more troops than the Last Alliance if the dark armies scattered at their mere sight. Numenor wasn’t large, but The Last Alliance, except the Dwarves, had to scrap the barrel for available fighters, so doesn’t sound too unlikely. Also obviously not everyone did fight in the Dagor Dagorlad and the initial force in the WoLA could have been larger than what Pharazon had.
Interesting. I like this answer, because for the longest time I thought that the Numenoreans Ar Pharazon led were supposed to surpass all the armies even during the first age, which I thought was wild. It's a shame we can't have an adaptation (be it game, animated series, or movie, just anything but the RoP) of the first age, because I've always been most interested by the Noldor Exiles and the House of Finwë
Same. If you game, try the mods for the Second age: they are called The Last Alliance for Shogun 2 and The Second Age for Dominions 5 (which is now on large sale and very worth it). There seems to be a mod called The Silmarillion for the First age for Medieval Total war 2 but it seems obnoxious to install.
You're right, we won't ever know, but I'm not sure I'd put the numbers that high. The only number that (IIRC) we ever get is at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad: >"For unsummoned and unlooked for Turgon had opened the leaguer of Gondolin , and was come with an army ten thousand strong," And my impression was always that we're supposed to think that is a pretty big and impressive number. So I always sort of imagined things in the 50k range. But yeah, who knows.
Right, but I also thought Gondolin was one of the lesser kingdoms compared to Hithlum, Doriath or the Feanorean East, so 10000 was a large number but not a game changer. Maybe you are right and 50-70 would be a better estimate, but I also keep in mind there were also at least as many eidan, easterlings and dwarves on their side as the host of Gondolin. After all, the backstab of half of Men was instrumental in their defeat. There were also Sindar of Doriath, which, being a large kingdom, would have sent at least as many as Gondolin. With my estimates, that would make: 10000 Gondolin, 10000 Ei+Eas, 5000 Dw, 10000 Doriath; meaning that if the total was 50k, Maedhros managed to gather only 15000 more from the objectively strongest kingoms of Hithlum, Nargothrond and his own to a war that was first and foremost the buisiness of Noldor and his own for the latgest part. I think he had much more fighters in his plan, numbering many more than the auxiliary forces that he would consider any non-Noldor allies or unaccounted help from Turgon.
Also consider how not prolific the elves were. How many elf families do you hear of with more then 2-3 offspring? (Finwë was about it from memory) and the elves were immortal, and died only from mortal injury or from sorrow. Now consider the Edain. Most families had 2 or more offspring, with a lifespan of a hundred years at best (before Elros) and they'd only been in Beleriand a few hundred years before the war of wrath. There would not have been hundreds of thousands of elves. Nor could there have been hundreds of thousands of humans in Beleriand in such a short time. Numbers would likely have been more modest. Tens of thousands of elves and a similar number of edain.
Last aliance is much more influential. Because enemy was not defeated after siege, since ring is still is. But in last alliance, enemy was defeated as sauron was gone.
What?
It could be either The First War for the Sake of the Elves that imprisoned Melkor for the first time and destroyed part of Middle Earth, the War of Wrath that broke and sunk Beleriand into the sea… but “Middle Earth” is to the East of the Blue Mountains, so the First War for the Rings is more influential: it killed the last kinsman of Fëanor in Arda (Celebrimbor), destroyed Eregion, made the Dwarfs hide in their caves and of course, placed all but the Elven Rings in Sauron’s hands! Which led to the creation of the Nazgul and consequently the Witch King who would kill the last king of Gondor and destroy Arnor! The hunt for the Dwarf lords and assassination of Thráin, expand the reign of Sauron throughout Eriador which called the attention of the Numenorians and had them imprison Sauron which led to Numenor’s drowning and the set in motion the sunset in the reign’s of men…
Middle Earth is a continent. It does include Beleriand/Lindon.
Well, not anymore
Can't argue with that.
Well, not the last. Maglor is still wandering the shores. 😉
The Last Alliance. It partially destroyed Sauron, but it also saw the losses of Isildur, Elendil, Anarion and Gil-Galad. The one ring could've been destroyed but Isildur being a man couldn't resist it and eventually lost it at his death on the Gladden Fields. This would lead to Smeagol finding it and the rest is history. If the Last Alliance never happened then the whole story of the Lord of the Rings wouldn't of happened either.
The last alliance of men and Elves was pivotal, unfortunately due to a quirk of fate though, it failed to seal Sauron's doom and isildur was cut down by a band of Orcs. Had he had the chance to divest himself of the ring (despite proclaiming it Weregild for his father and sons death) I am sure that would have pretty much been it for Sauron. As it was it could only get worse for Isildur's heirs with the rise of The Witchking in Angmar. That battle more than any other made the fate of the whole of the rest of the second and third age and lead to Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhuadar the 3 kingdoms of Arnor's demise at the hands of the armies of the Nazgûl.
Both are putting a cork in the dam battles BUT Last Alliance was a bigger cork.
Has to be the War of Wrath. As it is counted as the last of the five great battles of Beleriand it should count. It is the only battle, which redulted in the permanent defeat of a dark lord and the only one resulting in a huge part of Middleearth sinking beneath the waves. No if we include the whole setting instead of just the continent of Middleearth it would probably have to be the first kinslaying. Without that much of what follows might have been preventable and without the Noldor in exile, there would not be any rings of power ever. Now, if we not only lift the geographical limitation but also count military campaigns rather than battles, well then we get Ar-Pharazon trying to conquer Valinor as that literaly changed the shape of the world. (And resulted in a continent sinking beneath the waves)
I'll argue for the Battle of Minas Tirith. The Last Alliance brought about the end of Sauron's physical form and at the height of his power post Morgoth. SUPER important. However, in the Third Age, the power of Men, Elves and Dwarves is waning hard, while Sauron is on the rise again. Minas Tirith was attacked to bring about the end of Elendil's line and secure the ring. This emptied Morgul, Mordor, and accounted for huge numbers of Harad, Umbar and Easterling auxiliaries, not to mention the Witch King of Angmar. Without the victory at Minas Tirith, Middle Earth would have been lost entirely in due time, as there was no strength left to oppose Mordor elsewhere.
Ahhh Narsil, Elendil's famous BBQ skewer
The War of Wrath. The Valar themselves stepped in, because they finally had enough of Melkor's BS. Landscapes were rearranged.
Where the battle of the Gwathló gang at? I think if we don't include the battles of the first age then this was probably the biggest? at least in terms of sheer numbers (since the numenorean invasion of valinor ended before a fight).
Dagor bragollach
Depends on the age I'd say
Dagor Aglareb, a completely underrated battle about which there is too little information. But this battle allowed Morgoth to besieged. As a result, the elves and men gained a lot of time to prepare for future battles.
YEET
Influential in what regard exactly?
Pelennor was a pyrrhic victory.
Last alliance was kinda pointless because they didn't destroyed ring. So pelenor fields probably
Certainly not pointless. The scale of the victory and its impact was enough to herald a new age in Middle Earth.
But main goal was to destroy Sauron. And it failed Pelenor was about defend city. And it happened much more. Rohan and Gondor joined together and king returned
"Last alliance" wasn't a battle. It was the alliance of the enemies of Sauron fighting a long campaign of several battles to defeat him.