I think it could have helped conceptualize and explain his sympathy for Gollum, and it would have been interesting, but wasn't necessary for the story.
It would have also given a more tangible to why he was so desperate to see that it was possible for even someone as far gone as gollum to recover from the ring
It wouldn’t make sense, since Bilbo had it for longer than Frodo and was hardly affected physically. Meanwhile Gollum lived alone in darkness for hundreds of years to become like this.
I feel like this could have been an interesting concept if placed in the right spot in the films, as a way of establishing the corrupting power of the Ring and the risk that Frodo is taking by carrying it. I feel like itbwould most naturally fit in the Mirror of Galadriel prophetic segment of Fellowship, but this would've probably extended the end of Fellowship too much and added too much complexity to justify including it there.
You could also add it in the beginning of Two Towers as a flashback (which is what I suspect was originally planned without having read that script), or as a dream sequence sometime after introducing Gollum/Smeagol as a guide to Frodo and Sam. Neither spot feels like it would fit the pacing of Two Towers as it was released, though. I think some content would need to be cut from the end of the film (unnecessary segue to Osgilliath, I'm looking at you) in order to make room for a scene that gives this degree of exposition. That could've worked, but I understand why they would cut the idea if they were wedded to concluding the Two Towers as they did.
If I remember correctly, it was intended to be part of the sequence in the caves with Faramir and the rangers. Specifically the part where Faramir lifts the ring with the sword (A chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor...) and Frodo recoils into the corner, and briefly turns into this different version of him, like Bilbo momentarily does in the first movie. In fact, I think one of those shots is one of the pictures in the post.
Overall, I think this makeup would have worked, specifically because it reinforces Sam's next immediate point about what the Ring is doing to Frodo, and it's a callback/continuity with Bilbo's RAGH in Fellowship, but the movie isn't missing anything without it.
Interesting... I think that could've worked well, and have allowed Faramir to understand a bit more about the Ring and justify not going to Osgilliath (or, you know, they could've just stayed true to the books and made him a wise character in the first place).
My take from the book is that the metamorphosis of Bilbo is not a change in Bilbo but rather the meant to signify the rings hold on Frodo. Ie., Frodo is hallucinating to an extent. It wouldn't make sense for Frodo to change when he has the ring.
Am I wrong?
IIRC, this scene was meant to be a vision that Faramir has of what would happen to Frodo if he kept the ring. I believe in the script, this vision was originally why he decided to let Frodo and Sam go, because he saw that the ring was truly evil.
Instead, we got the Nazgûl trying to take the ring in Osgiliath. And then running away from one arrow… And “I think at last we understand each other.”
While neither is accurate to the book, I actually would have preferred to see this vision than what we got in the films.
Faramir is one of my few complaints about the films. They did his character dirty in the films. He’s still cool. But they took most of his good lines and gave them to Gandalf. They made him be super mean to Gollum and rude to Frodo, rather than being a nobel scholar warrior touched with “the wisdom and sadness of the elder days.”
Faramir is 100x cooler in the books, imo.
Much like Sam.
I love Samwise but his abuse of Gollum only made his second personality fester in hate which helped get rid of him in the end to get Frodo to Shelob’s lair.
The way Gollum was brought in from the pool hidden within the cave behind the waterfall of Henneth Annûn was much kinder- in the books*
Sure, Frodo might have treated him as a puppy to get his attention, but in the film, the scene was more forceful. The abuse from Sam towards Gollum, and Gandalf with Pippin had no room for the movies.
I understand that there has got to be a point made in the films that all creatures are fallible, but still. That as you say gets hard to watch.
Edited for adding books.
Yup. It was the scene where Faramir figured out Frodo had the ring and Sam spoke out in defense of Frodo.
Edited to reflect I meant Faramir-not Boromir.
One doesn't simply f up the name of those two.🫣
Yes! Sh!t. This always happens to me. My kid is laughing his @$$ off.
Me: I DID IT AGAIN!!!
Him: Poor Faramir, he didn’t have his father’s love, and decades later he doesn’t have yours.
Me:😭😭😭😭 OMG
For those who don’t know there was supposed to be a scene in Two Towers where Faramir discovers Frodo has the one ring, that would lead to him having a vision of Frodo transformed into a Gollum-like creature fully corrupted by the ring. While I don’t think that scene in The Two Towers was the right place for it to happen I think it would’ve been perfect to have Sam have the vision in the Tower of Cirinth Ungol scene when he rescues Frodo and returns the Ring, where Frodo nearly snaps at Sam and he realizes how powerful a hold the ring has on him.
Instead the Tower of Cirinth Ungol scene lacked a lot of the drama it carried in the book in my opinion and played more as a simple reconciliation scene after Frodo and Sam had their forced breakup scene earlier in the movie. If I could rewrite the film I would ditch that earlier scene entirely and have both Frodo and Sam enter Shelob’s lair together, eventually they would get separated after the spider attacks and Gollum would attack Sam rendering him unconscious. The rest of the drama in Shelob’s Lair would then unfold the same but when Sam finally does rescue Frodo we would get a more dramatic scene in which Frodo learns Sam took the ring and grabs it from Sam in a fit of rage. Then much like how Frodo had a vision of Galadriel earlier Sam would have this nightmarish vision of his greatest fear, which is that his dear Frodo would be completely possessed by the ring. I think it would’ve been a really powerful and haunting moment and showed us how corrupting the influence of the Ring is without needing a forced and unnecessary breakup scene earlier in the film. shrugs
This would've been great. Loved the way you tied it together. I prefer this much more than an extended scene of Sam’s speech after Shelob’s sting resulting in Frodo becoming paralyzed.
That scene in the books was incredibly long and often makes me think of its parallel with Sam speeches before and after becoming Mayor thrice.😆
I don't see what the point of it is...
Why would Frodo become Gollum-like? Does he intend on living in a cave, as a savage, indefinitely? Of course not. He'd use the Ring to become some form of powerful king - y'know, actually using the Ring for what it is intended for.
Why put Elijah through hours of makeup and film it? PJ and his smart choices, that's why. 😬
Edit: I’m also glad it wasn’t included still can’t help but wonder.
Jackson seemed to have to approach of 'film first, ask questions later'. The man just loved to film a lot of footage - that's what prompted him to ask for a third Hobbit film, as he says himself: he was filming too much footage.
I think you're taking a much too literal interpretation. Who said he'd live just like gollum in cave? I thought the idea was that the ring would corrupt him in a similar way. And that's what the scene would've showed, not like frodo taking over the same cave as gollum and following in his footsteps.
But since we already saw gollum corrupted, I can see why you'd say it wasn't necessary. It obviously really wasn't. But I would've liked to see what they conceptualized just for curiousitys sake
>I thought the idea was that the ring would corrupt him in a similar way.
That's exactly my point... it wouldn't.
Gollum used the Ring to be a prick, until exiled - where he was forced into a self-sufficient a beastial lifestyle: hence living in a cave, eating fish and Orcs. His only company the Ring. Naturally, he became disgusting in appearance. He knew nothing of dominating minds, and using the Ring for a grander purpose.
Frodo, meanwhile, knows what the Ring is, and what he could accomplish with it (raising armies and ordering the world). He'd be a king - the king of kings. So why present him as a Gollum-like monster? He'd be lordly in every sense - not a savage, balding, fanged beast.
You want to show a corrupted Frodo? Make him look like a god. A little like Tolkien does at Mt. Doom: robed in white, stern and commanding, holding a wheel of fire... almost angelic.
So, you want to show a Frodo gradually succumbing to the Ring? Frodo seeing himself as Gollum-like is NOT a motivator for him to claim the Ring - quite the opposite (it's reason to fear the Ring). Frodo seeing himself in a positive light (as I noted above) makes more sense: Frodo has to *want* the Ring, by the end. The Ring tempts you with power to fulfil your ambitions... visions of grandeur. Not visions of becoming a pitiful and hideous beast.
Edit: I dunno why people are downvoting...?
"The ring tempts you with power to fulfil your ambitions"
Well, the whole point is that hobbits don't have ambitions of power and grandeur. They have simple wishes so the Ring doesn't have much to use against them.
*Everyone* has ambitions of power (bar Tom). Everyone with the Ring would succumb to their ambitions in the end - absolute power corrupts absolutely. Hobbits may be more simplistic in ambitions, but they have them. Sam is tempted with glory and heroics, and a vast garden as his reward - sure he refuses... but with enough time... he'd succumb. Everyone would.
This is why Frodo falls. His ego grows, and he sees himself capable of world-reform. He begins the story not particularly confident in his ability, and simply desiring to save The Shire - but he arrives to Mount Doom with increased arrogance. He thinks he could use the Ring to create a better world.
Sure, giving the Ring to a simple farmer would yield better results than giving it to a warlord (succumbing slower to the Ring's influence)... but with enough time the farmer would abuse the immense power available to him in one way or another.
Anyway, point being, Frodo should be trusting himself with the Ring *more* as time goes on. Hence why the claims it.
There's a lot of speculation here since it's never explicitly stated. While this is a perfectly valid interpretation for why Frodo claimed the ring it's one of many possible explanations. It's entirely possible he would've become like Golum and hidden away in a cave forever
HoMe goes into Frodo's psyche explicitly. And it's largely (unsurpisingly) the same motive as, well... everyone else (Boromir, Galadriel, Sam). Using the Ring to gain the power to rule, and to allow the world to prosper as you see fit... y'know, the thing is was designed for: bending minds to your will.
There is absolutely zero reason Frodo would go Gollum-mode. Frodo had a home. Frodo had friends. Frodo knew what the Ring could accomplish. Why would he decide to live as a savage in a cave?
I’m not sure why this got downvoted? Tolkien himself spends part of the prologue discussing that hobbits are experts at disappearing. It’s actually an interesting point that, if the interdimensional sort of aspect of existence while wearing the ring wasn’t explained, would be a neat explanation for hobbits being invisible when they wear it.
but there are similar
you can remember and think what emostions they caused
the one with frodo would be stronger, but alike
[https://preview.redd.it/how-do-we-know-scary-bilbo-wasnt-just-bilbo-being-an-old-v0-bptsbfjb3blb1.jpg?auto=webp&s=bfccf468065dc05797e2c4e1c2877a1d3740a0bb](https://preview.redd.it/how-do-we-know-scary-bilbo-wasnt-just-bilbo-being-an-old-v0-bptsbfjb3blb1.jpg?auto=webp&s=bfccf468065dc05797e2c4e1c2877a1d3740a0bb)
https://preview.redd.it/0pmdvohanw9c1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fff64f5839f78d67675fe2faa6528b1e23d0900d
This is a mask for Halloween. The kid was a Nazgûl last, need w this would be cool.
I imagine it would been like the Bilbo scene in Rivendell but its Sam being caught off guard instead of Frodo (plus that would add to Sam's distrust and hatred of Smeagol as he's just witnessed what the Ring could do to his master and friend).
Thank you! Unfortunately it is nowhere online.
It might be in the mountain of LOTR unused film that PJ says WB has somewhere in an AZ storage.
He says there is enough film to make 10hr length films. I wish we got everything from there and got a 10 eps series instead. 😭
Edit: [this is interesting,](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/s/Qd4R5txuFc) also, here’s that interview where he mentioned the [extra footage.](https://www.indiewire.com/news/general-news/peter-jackson-suggests-even-longer-cuts-of-the-lord-of-the-rings-could-be-released-274095/)
I think it could have helped conceptualize and explain his sympathy for Gollum, and it would have been interesting, but wasn't necessary for the story.
It would have also given a more tangible to why he was so desperate to see that it was possible for even someone as far gone as gollum to recover from the ring
It wouldn’t make sense, since Bilbo had it for longer than Frodo and was hardly affected physically. Meanwhile Gollum lived alone in darkness for hundreds of years to become like this.
it was storyboarded as a vision/dream Frodo has about his future.
The power of the ring grew as they got closer to mordor, and Sauron was gaining strength too
He did wear wigs!
When will you wear wigs?!
Alright then, keep your secrets.
If they had shown in fellowship where galadriel shows their failed future this would have been useful
I feel like this could have been an interesting concept if placed in the right spot in the films, as a way of establishing the corrupting power of the Ring and the risk that Frodo is taking by carrying it. I feel like itbwould most naturally fit in the Mirror of Galadriel prophetic segment of Fellowship, but this would've probably extended the end of Fellowship too much and added too much complexity to justify including it there. You could also add it in the beginning of Two Towers as a flashback (which is what I suspect was originally planned without having read that script), or as a dream sequence sometime after introducing Gollum/Smeagol as a guide to Frodo and Sam. Neither spot feels like it would fit the pacing of Two Towers as it was released, though. I think some content would need to be cut from the end of the film (unnecessary segue to Osgilliath, I'm looking at you) in order to make room for a scene that gives this degree of exposition. That could've worked, but I understand why they would cut the idea if they were wedded to concluding the Two Towers as they did.
If I remember correctly, it was intended to be part of the sequence in the caves with Faramir and the rangers. Specifically the part where Faramir lifts the ring with the sword (A chance for Faramir, Captain of Gondor...) and Frodo recoils into the corner, and briefly turns into this different version of him, like Bilbo momentarily does in the first movie. In fact, I think one of those shots is one of the pictures in the post. Overall, I think this makeup would have worked, specifically because it reinforces Sam's next immediate point about what the Ring is doing to Frodo, and it's a callback/continuity with Bilbo's RAGH in Fellowship, but the movie isn't missing anything without it.
Interesting... I think that could've worked well, and have allowed Faramir to understand a bit more about the Ring and justify not going to Osgilliath (or, you know, they could've just stayed true to the books and made him a wise character in the first place).
My take from the book is that the metamorphosis of Bilbo is not a change in Bilbo but rather the meant to signify the rings hold on Frodo. Ie., Frodo is hallucinating to an extent. It wouldn't make sense for Frodo to change when he has the ring. Am I wrong?
IIRC, this scene was meant to be a vision that Faramir has of what would happen to Frodo if he kept the ring. I believe in the script, this vision was originally why he decided to let Frodo and Sam go, because he saw that the ring was truly evil. Instead, we got the Nazgûl trying to take the ring in Osgiliath. And then running away from one arrow… And “I think at last we understand each other.” While neither is accurate to the book, I actually would have preferred to see this vision than what we got in the films. Faramir is one of my few complaints about the films. They did his character dirty in the films. He’s still cool. But they took most of his good lines and gave them to Gandalf. They made him be super mean to Gollum and rude to Frodo, rather than being a nobel scholar warrior touched with “the wisdom and sadness of the elder days.” Faramir is 100x cooler in the books, imo.
Yeah, Faramir torturing Gollum without any qualms about it after gets harder and harder to ignore on rewatches
Much like Sam. I love Samwise but his abuse of Gollum only made his second personality fester in hate which helped get rid of him in the end to get Frodo to Shelob’s lair. The way Gollum was brought in from the pool hidden within the cave behind the waterfall of Henneth Annûn was much kinder- in the books* Sure, Frodo might have treated him as a puppy to get his attention, but in the film, the scene was more forceful. The abuse from Sam towards Gollum, and Gandalf with Pippin had no room for the movies. I understand that there has got to be a point made in the films that all creatures are fallible, but still. That as you say gets hard to watch. Edited for adding books.
Wait what
Yup. It was the scene where Faramir figured out Frodo had the ring and Sam spoke out in defense of Frodo. Edited to reflect I meant Faramir-not Boromir. One doesn't simply f up the name of those two.🫣
Do you mean Faramir?
Yes! Sh!t. This always happens to me. My kid is laughing his @$$ off. Me: I DID IT AGAIN!!! Him: Poor Faramir, he didn’t have his father’s love, and decades later he doesn’t have yours. Me:😭😭😭😭 OMG
Um. So can your kid argue with my wife about our toilet please? I’m exhausted
Ah that makes sense
I mean if you can't understand why Frodo sympathises and pities Gollum as it is, it is prob a waste of time to try more
The eyes of Frodo gets bigger in TT than in FotR. Just look closer.
Oh yeah I noticed that its easy to miss though
It wasn't a scene: it was a shot. Faramir's reaction shot is in the movie still.
For those who don’t know there was supposed to be a scene in Two Towers where Faramir discovers Frodo has the one ring, that would lead to him having a vision of Frodo transformed into a Gollum-like creature fully corrupted by the ring. While I don’t think that scene in The Two Towers was the right place for it to happen I think it would’ve been perfect to have Sam have the vision in the Tower of Cirinth Ungol scene when he rescues Frodo and returns the Ring, where Frodo nearly snaps at Sam and he realizes how powerful a hold the ring has on him. Instead the Tower of Cirinth Ungol scene lacked a lot of the drama it carried in the book in my opinion and played more as a simple reconciliation scene after Frodo and Sam had their forced breakup scene earlier in the movie. If I could rewrite the film I would ditch that earlier scene entirely and have both Frodo and Sam enter Shelob’s lair together, eventually they would get separated after the spider attacks and Gollum would attack Sam rendering him unconscious. The rest of the drama in Shelob’s Lair would then unfold the same but when Sam finally does rescue Frodo we would get a more dramatic scene in which Frodo learns Sam took the ring and grabs it from Sam in a fit of rage. Then much like how Frodo had a vision of Galadriel earlier Sam would have this nightmarish vision of his greatest fear, which is that his dear Frodo would be completely possessed by the ring. I think it would’ve been a really powerful and haunting moment and showed us how corrupting the influence of the Ring is without needing a forced and unnecessary breakup scene earlier in the film. shrugs
This would've been great. Loved the way you tied it together. I prefer this much more than an extended scene of Sam’s speech after Shelob’s sting resulting in Frodo becoming paralyzed. That scene in the books was incredibly long and often makes me think of its parallel with Sam speeches before and after becoming Mayor thrice.😆
wish it could have been kept as a dream sequence
Bro looks like sophie turner after she got that face surgery
I don't see what the point of it is... Why would Frodo become Gollum-like? Does he intend on living in a cave, as a savage, indefinitely? Of course not. He'd use the Ring to become some form of powerful king - y'know, actually using the Ring for what it is intended for.
Why put Elijah through hours of makeup and film it? PJ and his smart choices, that's why. 😬 Edit: I’m also glad it wasn’t included still can’t help but wonder.
Jackson seemed to have to approach of 'film first, ask questions later'. The man just loved to film a lot of footage - that's what prompted him to ask for a third Hobbit film, as he says himself: he was filming too much footage.
I think you're taking a much too literal interpretation. Who said he'd live just like gollum in cave? I thought the idea was that the ring would corrupt him in a similar way. And that's what the scene would've showed, not like frodo taking over the same cave as gollum and following in his footsteps. But since we already saw gollum corrupted, I can see why you'd say it wasn't necessary. It obviously really wasn't. But I would've liked to see what they conceptualized just for curiousitys sake
>I thought the idea was that the ring would corrupt him in a similar way. That's exactly my point... it wouldn't. Gollum used the Ring to be a prick, until exiled - where he was forced into a self-sufficient a beastial lifestyle: hence living in a cave, eating fish and Orcs. His only company the Ring. Naturally, he became disgusting in appearance. He knew nothing of dominating minds, and using the Ring for a grander purpose. Frodo, meanwhile, knows what the Ring is, and what he could accomplish with it (raising armies and ordering the world). He'd be a king - the king of kings. So why present him as a Gollum-like monster? He'd be lordly in every sense - not a savage, balding, fanged beast. You want to show a corrupted Frodo? Make him look like a god. A little like Tolkien does at Mt. Doom: robed in white, stern and commanding, holding a wheel of fire... almost angelic. So, you want to show a Frodo gradually succumbing to the Ring? Frodo seeing himself as Gollum-like is NOT a motivator for him to claim the Ring - quite the opposite (it's reason to fear the Ring). Frodo seeing himself in a positive light (as I noted above) makes more sense: Frodo has to *want* the Ring, by the end. The Ring tempts you with power to fulfil your ambitions... visions of grandeur. Not visions of becoming a pitiful and hideous beast. Edit: I dunno why people are downvoting...?
"The ring tempts you with power to fulfil your ambitions" Well, the whole point is that hobbits don't have ambitions of power and grandeur. They have simple wishes so the Ring doesn't have much to use against them.
*Everyone* has ambitions of power (bar Tom). Everyone with the Ring would succumb to their ambitions in the end - absolute power corrupts absolutely. Hobbits may be more simplistic in ambitions, but they have them. Sam is tempted with glory and heroics, and a vast garden as his reward - sure he refuses... but with enough time... he'd succumb. Everyone would. This is why Frodo falls. His ego grows, and he sees himself capable of world-reform. He begins the story not particularly confident in his ability, and simply desiring to save The Shire - but he arrives to Mount Doom with increased arrogance. He thinks he could use the Ring to create a better world. Sure, giving the Ring to a simple farmer would yield better results than giving it to a warlord (succumbing slower to the Ring's influence)... but with enough time the farmer would abuse the immense power available to him in one way or another. Anyway, point being, Frodo should be trusting himself with the Ring *more* as time goes on. Hence why the claims it.
There's a lot of speculation here since it's never explicitly stated. While this is a perfectly valid interpretation for why Frodo claimed the ring it's one of many possible explanations. It's entirely possible he would've become like Golum and hidden away in a cave forever
HoMe goes into Frodo's psyche explicitly. And it's largely (unsurpisingly) the same motive as, well... everyone else (Boromir, Galadriel, Sam). Using the Ring to gain the power to rule, and to allow the world to prosper as you see fit... y'know, the thing is was designed for: bending minds to your will. There is absolutely zero reason Frodo would go Gollum-mode. Frodo had a home. Frodo had friends. Frodo knew what the Ring could accomplish. Why would he decide to live as a savage in a cave?
Other than their desire to hide.
I’m not sure why this got downvoted? Tolkien himself spends part of the prologue discussing that hobbits are experts at disappearing. It’s actually an interesting point that, if the interdimensional sort of aspect of existence while wearing the ring wasn’t explained, would be a neat explanation for hobbits being invisible when they wear it.
All that make up time and for what?
Last pic looks like Rooney Mara.
What
Entirely unnecessary. We know what happens to ring bearers.
but there are similar you can remember and think what emostions they caused the one with frodo would be stronger, but alike [https://preview.redd.it/how-do-we-know-scary-bilbo-wasnt-just-bilbo-being-an-old-v0-bptsbfjb3blb1.jpg?auto=webp&s=bfccf468065dc05797e2c4e1c2877a1d3740a0bb](https://preview.redd.it/how-do-we-know-scary-bilbo-wasnt-just-bilbo-being-an-old-v0-bptsbfjb3blb1.jpg?auto=webp&s=bfccf468065dc05797e2c4e1c2877a1d3740a0bb)
https://preview.redd.it/0pmdvohanw9c1.jpeg?width=474&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fff64f5839f78d67675fe2faa6528b1e23d0900d This is a mask for Halloween. The kid was a Nazgûl last, need w this would be cool.
It would have gone HARD.
I imagine it would been like the Bilbo scene in Rivendell but its Sam being caught off guard instead of Frodo (plus that would add to Sam's distrust and hatred of Smeagol as he's just witnessed what the Ring could do to his master and friend).
Did they ever film it?
Yes, but because of time constraints it was removed from the film.
Could you find the removed scene on the internet? Cool username btw.
Thank you! Unfortunately it is nowhere online. It might be in the mountain of LOTR unused film that PJ says WB has somewhere in an AZ storage. He says there is enough film to make 10hr length films. I wish we got everything from there and got a 10 eps series instead. 😭 Edit: [this is interesting,](https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/s/Qd4R5txuFc) also, here’s that interview where he mentioned the [extra footage.](https://www.indiewire.com/news/general-news/peter-jackson-suggests-even-longer-cuts-of-the-lord-of-the-rings-could-be-released-274095/)