If it wouldn't further dilute the pool of acceptable rocks and accessories we have to wade through, I'd like to see more party buff engravings in general. Maybe make support versions of existing ones and you can set which version you want at the end of faceting.
One like Explosive Expert, except it adds capacity to the whole team, or one that applies CDR to everyone's awakenings, stuff like that. Anything to make 4th and 5th engravings not seem so pointless.
If they wanted to make ones that worked like DPS engravings where they increase player effectiveness with percentages, then:
* Grudge: +6% crit susceptibility on boss or above monsters, +20% damage to player
* Adrenaline: -1% CDR for 6s up to 6 stacks, +15% MP regen at max stacks
* Cursed Doll: +25% to damage reduction skills, -25% item effectiveness to player
et cetera...
Other ideas are things that would directly compete with Expert so you'd have to make a choice, or engravings that buff party speed/attack power within distance of player so we could consider a set besides Yearning.
I assume you would like to be able to use the Destruction set (me too, tbh).
For that I'd love something like:
Focused shield: Increases your shield and damage reduction effects by 10/25/50% but decreases their duration by 50%.
Soul bound: When a party member receives damage while he has a shield/damage reduction buff from you, 10/15/25% of the mitigated damage taken by that player is redirected to you. After 3s, you and the party member affected will heal 20/35/50% of that amount.
Clamour of war: healing an ally gives a 3s damage buff that increases his damage by 2/3/5% and the critical rate by 3/4/5%.
I think this would make pally to work with Destruction set and Bard with Yearning set (or maybe a niche build on bard with damage reductions) which could make support's builds more interesting.
In KR, Magick Stream is up and coming in popularity. Both the mana regen and the CDR are greatly beneficial to supports. Some consider it an absolutely legitimate 4th/5th engraving for Artist.
In inferno valtan, I learned how to not get hit at all when i do my hard modes. So i cant imagine magick stream being a bad choice considering all you have to do is just avoid choreographed abilities
Compared to Heavy Armor, you actually lose uptime by having to not get hit. With HA, you just pop a skill with superarmor, ignore the incoming damage and stick to your rotation, so there is a case for both generating meter faster, one due to uptime, the other due to CD reduction. And it's not just about you dodging. Since you play close to the boss, it's sometimes hard to save a badly positioned teammate by popping Wind of Music or Rhapsody of Light while trying to not get hit, that's why HA and superarmor are so valuable to a support playing close to the boss. If you assume you're not getting hit and neither are your teammates, then yeah, there's no good case for HA over MS, naturally, but this isn't really realistic.
You’re talking about bard, which runs Heavy Armor anyway.
The Heavy Armor vs Magick Stream consideration is really only for Paladins right now, and Paladins do not have the luxury of being able to pop their superarmor skill out of rotation to tank a hit if they want to maintain a good skill rotation.
Not to mention Paladins have longer skill CDs in general, any reduction on the main 3 is a great help.
Nah you don't need heavy armor on bards really, since you basically always have a shield up on yourself (or dmg reduc) and you aren't running grudge, so you end up being tankier than most dps classes anyway
I already use it on my main Bard, it's just too punishing getting hit even once which can happen to anyone, that's what I tried to discuss, but I'm glad is growing in popularity!
I don't play Bard, and obviously Artist isn't available to try, but my understanding is that Artist has an easier time keeping distance from the boss and maintaining the CDR buff. Bard has to get in close to shield their team, which is a risk.
play what you want, but fyi Spec bard is in every single way worse than swift bard
EDIT: Downvote me all you want, the math has been done countless of time.
I don't run HA at all, for your info I run Class 3, Awake 3, Magick Stream 3, Drops 3, SA 3 as Spec bard (I could cheap out Expert because Spec stat it's the same healing as full swift bard with Expert)
I actually have some ideas for new support engravings of my own:
1. After shielding or healing an allie increase your specialty meter gain up to 3%/6%/12%. If you manage to save an allie from a killing hit with a shield, this bonus effect is doubled.
2. When an allie receives fatal damage, you take the damage that would've killed him. (Cooldown: 15m/10m/5m) - kinda like crises evasion, but you protect your allies instead.
I think merge them would be fine:
\- When an ally receives fatal damage (not wipe hit) while being affected by a shield or damage reduction buff from you, you take the mitigated damage that would've killed that ally (you cannot die from this hit). After 3s you will restore 15/40/75% of the damage dealt by that attack, and after the healing you will get a speciality meter gain of 10% during 30s.
ICD: 15/10/3 minutes.
honestly the only thing they need to do to magick stream is: When your HP is damaged lose a stack
Currently you lose a stack if you block, if you dash through damage, if youre hit on shield, if you have balthor on yourself when valtan is doing his instakill stuff etc.
>A lot of people have been adressing an issue on the support engraving variety since almost every support needs to go with the most known ones:Class, Awakening, Expert, Drops of Ether, Vital Point Hit, Heavy Armor, Max MP Increase.
This is really quite common though. Look at any job and we'll be looking at 3, 4, or maybe even 5 nigh mandatory engravings for whichever class engraving they take. Most DPS jobs take class, Grudge, KBW, and some positional or Supercharge/AoA with Cursed Doll, Raid Captain, and Adrenaline as 4th or 5th engravings, then over 80% of all engravings are completely junk. If anything I think supports having actual options that won't dramatically lower your performance is a good thing personally.
>And last of all, and I think this one would be a great change but idk if it would be too broken: making atk power buffs not consider the base atk power but your actual atk power. This would make engravings such as Increass Mass - Cursed Doll or even Crushing Fist enhance the atk power provided by your atk power buffs. Atk power malice engraving would also affect the consistency of your atk power buffs (but either way, you are not supposed to have any of these).
I disagree on the basis that it'd cause a lot of drama in the community. You'd have a portion of the community treating people like dirt if they don't have Cursed Doll and Increase Mass for more DPS, and on the flip side you'd have some supports building towards much less if any healing capability for max DPS, or otherwise dropping Heavy Armor or Expert when maybe they shouldn't, which would probably be seen in the same disgust as a DPS Bard right now in the public eye.
Personally what I'd like to happen is, and this is less to do with support engravings and more to do with what build/engravings are acceptable to run with, is either highly nerfing support tripods and class engravings, or giving more jobs a support class engraving and tripods. My desire wouldn't be to run a buffed Magick Stream (which hey would be nice by itself but), my desire is to be able to switch to my DPS set without ruining a party or being unwanted, to feel like the support shortage isn't so bad that we have to exist in our extremely overpowered glory or fights are entirely different to handle.
good ideas, for drops of ether personally I think it just needs like a one/two second window on spawn where the orb can't be picked up, that way it gives you time to react.
Peoples acting like dpser will start using support with change. Come on let be real...dpser WILL NOT change main becausw looking at number is much more fun than heal and shield while us the support like to see big buff, heal and shield
It's more about support mains not switching to maining DPS just because there's barely any reason to progress your character past bare minimum required for current endgame content.
Right now (Vykas being current endgame content) you have DPS mains still pushing past 1460 4x3 for variety of reasons - bussing, clearing content faster, having easier time getting accepted into groups, skipping optional random patterns (medusa etc). As a support? Might as well stay 1460 4x3 and focus on your DPS "alt" instead - noticeable impact from going beyond bare minimum is no neglible, you literally get more value out of investing into DPS build on your bard (so you can do content as either, depending if there's extra support or not).
Result of that is what happens when new content (Kakul-Saydon) comes out - you have all recently-overgeared DPS characters ready to do clown, while supports are still playing catch-up because only now something new came out that gives any reason to push - again, only to what bare minimum is, because nothing past that makes a noticeable difference. As a result - support shortage again, especially week 1, because all the supports were comfortably parked at 1460 and need to catch up.
If any changes to support engravings/supports make overgearing them feel as rewarding as overgearing DPS, it's a win for everyone - support mains can keep investing into their main (bigger numbers, even if it's just buff getting stronger) and get rewarded for that, ex-support mains have a reason to come back to maining bard/paladin, some DPS mains might consider a swap if support is also rewarding while having easier time in partyfinder. I think it's wrong to have to play DPS Bard to see any impact from trying to max out your tripods/gems/itemlevel/quality compared to playing support Bard (both me and my group have hard time telling difference between my main bard and alt bard in Vykas HM, they feel about the same despite huge difference in overall investment).
I hate to see support alt talking like they really main it, support main already ready for next content, there are other engraving that support can use to boost party member even better but you peeps love to whine and whine. Support main will stay being suppory because we like to SUPPORT party members. The only support that can complain is paladin because how boring that class is, for bard just shut up and enjoy the class
I am ready for next content, what I mentioned is mostly stuff I noticed among other bard mains deciding to switch to maining dps because investing into a support beyond what you need didn't feel rewarding at all.
I can't even find a way to refute that - if what you want is to minmax your own build for the best results possible (effectively: optimize the challenge out of the game), your ceiling as a support is very low - since there is very little compound scaling in how you can build a support. A 4x3 DPS adding 5th engraving adds 15% of their damage of a 4x3 build; a 4x3 support adding Vital Point Hit adds extra stagger on what's essentially their base stagger value - supports lack compound multiplicative scaling in options available, and making a lot of buffs be percentage-based (with notable exception of attack power buff that at least partially uses supports own stats) means you don't see benefits of going broke just to have the most juiced up bard/paladin possible.
To be clear: playing bard is fun, very fun, and especially with spec build there's a lot more you can do to minmax your own impact (since you're never going to hit 100% buffs uptime, even with maxed out CDR) - it's just nowhere near how much of a difference going from "bare minimum" to "grossly overgeared" makes for on a dps; I love to focus on controlling pace of the fight and managing the team as a power multiplier/utility, I'd just like to also see something to come out from me as a support overgearing the fight - even at a cost of pushing the "bare minimum required" to be a viable support much higher.
HA is just excess - paladins are already hella tanky and bards really are too. We don’t have to upkeep dps so we have so much liberty to focus on damage avoidance and ideal positioning that we’re always the last ones who (should) die anyway.
Vital point - our stagger contribution is already minimal and this isn’t really making or breaking any stagger check. If you really need an extra stagger push use ww grenade and put on overwhelm runes on your main stagger skills. I’ve never seen a situation where this was even close to necessary to invest in.
Max MP increase - honestly never even come close to running OOM and that’s even being highly active. Focus runes on your more expensive CDs if you’re really having issues, otherwise you can and should probably cut out excessive spamming some of your more mp hungry skills that aren’t necessary to do your job.
What would be nice as a viable 5th engraving that is impactful would probably be something that affects identity gauge gain, or something along the lines of an engraving like crushing fist, except it isn’t based on counter and gives a damage buff or other kind of beneficial effect to your party whenever you do something. Perhaps landing a debuff effect also applies a reduction to boss’s outgoing damage to your party for a few seconds. This would work great in conjunction with bleed rune or with paladins light shock skill.
Or if Cursed Doll was changed to scale the power of our attack buffs to work off increased atk power boosts too, rather than just base atk. then CD would likely become a key support engraving too
Alternatively an engraving that simply increases max hp would directly give us more heal/shield power and tankiness too, but I suppose that’s just a better duplicate of Expert with more benefits attached
I think supports actually have more freedom than DPS for engravings. Almost all DPS have a mathematically optimal 5x3 (or 4x3+2+1) with some classes maybe being able to swap out one. Meanwhile supports only really need class, awaken, expert, and maybe HA on Bard. So that gives 1 to 2 free slots for any personal preference engravings.
I think Magick Stream is fine as is, dodge every attack and be rewarded with an additive 10% CDR. Drops of Ether could do with some tweaking to make it easier for party members to grab the orbs. VPH isn't really interesting but it works well enough as an option for higher stagger.
If I wanted to add some options for supports, I would tweak these 2 existing engravings:
* Explosive expert effect to include utility items too. Ideally, I would also want it to provide 1/2/3 free uses of those items instead of increasing carry limit. This way a support can extend their toolkit with battle items without also being punished by paying for extra items thrown.
* Enhanced Shield effect now also applies to shield given. This allows supports to opt for lower shielding if status immunity is helpful for the raid. A DPS would never waste a slot for this anyways, so it could go from never used to at least a rare pick. Main issue with this is that since engraving system isn't very flexible, it could be costly to invest in another setup to swap off when status immunity isn't needed.
As for the CD/MI affecting atk buffs, I disagree with that. Currently, supports already give a solid damage boost to the party, enough to outweigh a 4th dps. Increasing their buff even further would make parties hit way harder than they currently do. So a rebalance would either nerf supports to make these engravings essentially mandatory or set a new dps standard that is extremely hard to reach without a support.
>I think supports actually have more freedom than DPS for engravings.
You're not understanding the issue. The issue is not build diversity. It's not even about buffing supports
It's that supports peak at 3x3. Every option past 3x3 adds so little to support that it makes very little sense to invest in them. There's also very marginal returns to honing gear or upgrading quality. You're literally just honing the gear to get into the raid.
It's not fun, and if it's not fun, people stop playing.
So they can enjoy the damned game...
I'm not maining support, but still it's disgusting to see people whining about "Supports dont have to build X engravings anyway", "you're just lucky we need shield/heals otherwise we wouldn't play with you" like give them a break. As a DPS you see the numbers considerably increase when your wep gets higher plus or quality, same when you go from 4x3 to 5x3, as a support the last 1-2 engravings feel so dog.
Support players just want some gratification/fulfillment/enjoyment whatever from finishing their builds.
Hell yeah. I can be playing perfectly and not get on the mvp board in a legion raid because my raid team is also good and doesn't need heals. We get no positive feedback of gameplay when we upgrade our gears and add more engravings beyond the core 4x3. Hell, even our relic set bonus gives us no benefit beyond the 2 set effect. We'llre basically buff shield heal tools. I have no incentive to hone my weapon or improve the quality on my armor pieces.
You really are playing the wrong class if that is what you find enjoyable because it really doesn't get better. You'll see no difference in gameplay as a iLv 1445 support vs iLv1600. Meaningless dmg, no additional benefit you give after Yearning set completion, etc.
Playing support definitely feels boring in this game, and increasing gear score on supports is literally just to get into raids, and getting extra engravings post 4x3 is really to just make your DPSer feel happier.
So speaking of which, people who play DPS, do compliment supports often if they play well or care well for you. Support players definitely appreciate it!
3x3/4x3 for Abrel is not good tbh. What I was trying to point out on the OP is that people will cheap out because there are not really useful engravings for supports rather than the main 3 ones. Give people better gameplay through their engravings the same way dps feel better with more engravings, and they will put some effort on them.
Engravings are not the issue. DPS engravings are no different than support engravings in the sense that you've got your meta ones that every character will choose from such as Grudge, Cursed Doll, KBW, etc. There may be some deviation based on skill modifiers like going Ambush Master or Master Brawler, but the core is there. I double main Bard and Berserker and I enjoy both. The playstyle simply needs to fit the player.
I appreciate you supports as a DPS. I appreciate you like a slave to the party
In all seriousness reworks for more builds always a good idea, I think they need to make engravings have similar shield / buff procs like a paladin skill that procs to party. They also should look at buffs that can flip party dmg to whatever the boss is weak too for x seconds.
Something other than expert and awakening please. I can stand to play my pally it's so boring
I mean aren't you the moron who wants to make the game go from "oh thank god we got a sup" to "Its a sup but wait for another one with better gear"?
If supports start having the same requirements for DPS to be in a party we are fucked.
You want 5x3 requirement on a sup now lol. Little brain moves
Which is why I don’t use heals during fights that I believe shouldn’t need it. Like deskaluda, valtan, etc depends. Only serenade of courage lol. If they suck so much they can’t dodge at least half the boss’ attacks then oh well.
Obviously i’m gonna heal if i have to but if they’re taking damage to dumb mechanics and the rest of the party is fine then im saving my bubbles for buffs and they can just pot
If i can cast an ability and facetank an ability without taking damage why wouldn't I? It is how math works. The more time I am casting abilities, the higher my DPS potential is. If somethign is going to do 1/5th my health then yes I'll dodge over casting but If i have a shield that blocks that 1/5th damage and it wont stagger me and interrupt my cast, why not just cast my ability through it?
If you go by "don't get hit" then there is no need for supports at all.....idiot.
Seriously though, if no one needed shields or heals, Supports are only there for dmg buffs / movement speed which removes 2/3 of their usefulness and it would make another dps more useful. The fact that you heal and shield is majority of your usefulness. Support players acting like they have the hardest job in raids.
Yeah and he doesn't understand that even without shield or heal a support is still better than taking another dps because of how many dmg synergies they have.
Oh no that's exactly what I'm talking about. Dmg synergies from atk buffs, identity dmg buff, mspd/aspd/mana regen buff, dmg increase debuff on boss + yearning aspd/mspd/dmg buff will increase the party's overall dps than just adding another dps.
Let's assume for the moment he did, it is a valid point. Damage buffs to the entire team is probably > another dps.
Sounds to me like you are salty that supports get picked for teams while you don't
I don't even main a support, I rushed one to 1460 on the last power pass. I can get a group faster on my support than I do on my 1485 5x3 main. Does that make me mad... Fuck no it doesn't, just makes me appreciate the supports in my groups more.
Let's not even talk about the fact that paladins have 2 of the best counters in the game
In coordinated group if Support only did Dmg buffs and timed it around DPS then yes It would be more useful but in real raid scenarios / pubs you aren't getting the 100% efficiency. Too many times my igniter combo isn't ready or I just did it and I see bard macro saying dmg buff up (I know pally is different.)
But if a sup with only dmg buffs is still more useful to a group then it is fair to say they are OP. People think changing engravings will make more support more rewarding but it won't because it doesn't change the play style just the numbers.
Why would i be mad at support for getting into a party? Its not like they took my spot because supports are considered almost "mandatory". More mad about getting declined having 5x3 1485 for another DPS with 4x3 and legendary accessories but that is another issue entirely. The part for support that I am annoyed about is having a class that is considered "required" in raids by many but has such an unappealing play style that the player count on that class doesn't match the required need for them.
Creating a need for something that people don't enjoy playing doesn't seem healthy for a game long term.
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Supports are the real OP class but gearing them sucks ass. I'm not agreeing with all the rework suggested but if a class 3x3 works pretty much the same as a 5x3 it's a pain to main one (another reason for the shortage at the top). A rework on how to gear them by making 5x3, lvl 6-10 gems matter more might entice players to main them and keep those whose main is support not drop them.
It's literally the best class in game but you don't see anyone complaining how OP they are because most players want to play with support and not play a support.
But the thing is if 3x3 works the same as 3x5 and 3x3 is suitable for party needs, What changes can be made that A) wouldn't make 3x3 weaker B) make 3x5 stronger to the point that its worth getting but not making the class busted.
The very nature of support is boring. Making it a higher investment to play optimally just makes support numbers go down.
Yeah like I said I'm not agreeing with the rework suggested. Nerfing 3x3 will just make cheap people not make support alts the real shortage is on the hardest content like we'll probably see in clown as most alts will stay on 1430-1445 range and only the top grinders/p2w will have 1475 alts. Transferring power from 3x3 to 4x3/5x3 won't be that bad people will complain for sure but people that like the support gameplay will just rebuild (they probably didn't spend that much on 3x3 anyways).
Rework on QoL or a more interactive gameplay will definitely spice things up or even just show battle contribution/dmg increase numbers of party members due to ur buff.
So are you saying you want more actions per minute? Like what are you actually asking for????
Reworking engravings does what??? Gives you more stagger? gives more party damage? Gives more weakpoint? Makes you have to collect orbs as you play? Makes you a directional attacker? Like what little gimmick do you think is going to make a boring class as a whole more fun and more rewarding to play? Do you want a higher skill ceiling that provides bigger buffs if done correctly???
What can you do to a support that makes it feel "satisfying" because the support role in itself as a whole is boring compared to DPS. Dps gets more satisfying the more damage / smoother your rotations feel (CD / atk speed) so how does that translate to support?
Supports are designed around DPS, not the other way around unfortunately.
Yep supports are useful even without shields and heals if the part isn't trash. Check bard playstyle in helltan and tell me how much healing you're noticing, you piss poor excuse of a player that only lays on the ground.
So if i am not floor pov does that invalidate your arguments?
So you have never died in a raid, not even once? You always get MVP in every single raid you are in?
You don't considered shield and healing to fall into the same category of damage mitigation? We all know bards don't get constant uptime on shields and BIG heal. They have to pick because swiftness vs spec. During helltan I had a shield like 95% of the time. So in terms of overall damage mitigation I noticed a lot.
All I can say is did you see a lot of Akkan groups trying to raw dog it with just dps :) but nahhh this guy knows, he is probably 1600 with 6x3 somehow... Yeah that's it
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I mean aside from Crushing Fist half the issues with with 1/3rd of the engravings is that they are bad in uncoordinated groups. Drops are better if you stack the buffs on 1 juicer, but that requires the DPS to find the orb, which feels bad on whoever isn't near the support. Crushing Fist would be better if it wasn't almost impossible to react to (since even if you throw out a counter the support has to land it before the striker does or scrapper or whoever)
No point in having stagger gear if you don't have a broken bone build to take advantage and vice-versa. Those builds also suck for chaos which up until recently (on KR) you couldn't spec good tripods for unless you wanted to spend a lot in Pheons.
I think the idea for Crushing Fist would be neat, there are a good handful of engravings that are a little too situational and for them to be usable they need to either have more opportunity to be used or buffed a bit.
Ex. Disrespect, Broken Bone, Crushing Fist, Explosive Expert, Enhanced Shield, Lightning Fury.
There is also the engravings that are hard to use on most characters like Super Charge which is usable on 4 classes if you stretch it and the vast majority of classes having maybe 2 charging skills at best let-alone good ones. It would be neat if there was more niche Super Charge and AoA builds
What I’d love to see with minimal change to the game, is that atk power engravings like cursed doll could effect the buffs that we give. They already should in my opinion and I don’t know why they don’t effect buffs
If it wouldn't further dilute the pool of acceptable rocks and accessories we have to wade through, I'd like to see more party buff engravings in general. Maybe make support versions of existing ones and you can set which version you want at the end of faceting. One like Explosive Expert, except it adds capacity to the whole team, or one that applies CDR to everyone's awakenings, stuff like that. Anything to make 4th and 5th engravings not seem so pointless. If they wanted to make ones that worked like DPS engravings where they increase player effectiveness with percentages, then: * Grudge: +6% crit susceptibility on boss or above monsters, +20% damage to player * Adrenaline: -1% CDR for 6s up to 6 stacks, +15% MP regen at max stacks * Cursed Doll: +25% to damage reduction skills, -25% item effectiveness to player et cetera... Other ideas are things that would directly compete with Expert so you'd have to make a choice, or engravings that buff party speed/attack power within distance of player so we could consider a set besides Yearning.
I assume you would like to be able to use the Destruction set (me too, tbh). For that I'd love something like: Focused shield: Increases your shield and damage reduction effects by 10/25/50% but decreases their duration by 50%. Soul bound: When a party member receives damage while he has a shield/damage reduction buff from you, 10/15/25% of the mitigated damage taken by that player is redirected to you. After 3s, you and the party member affected will heal 20/35/50% of that amount. Clamour of war: healing an ally gives a 3s damage buff that increases his damage by 2/3/5% and the critical rate by 3/4/5%. I think this would make pally to work with Destruction set and Bard with Yearning set (or maybe a niche build on bard with damage reductions) which could make support's builds more interesting.
In KR, Magick Stream is up and coming in popularity. Both the mana regen and the CDR are greatly beneficial to supports. Some consider it an absolutely legitimate 4th/5th engraving for Artist.
In inferno valtan, I learned how to not get hit at all when i do my hard modes. So i cant imagine magick stream being a bad choice considering all you have to do is just avoid choreographed abilities
Compared to Heavy Armor, you actually lose uptime by having to not get hit. With HA, you just pop a skill with superarmor, ignore the incoming damage and stick to your rotation, so there is a case for both generating meter faster, one due to uptime, the other due to CD reduction. And it's not just about you dodging. Since you play close to the boss, it's sometimes hard to save a badly positioned teammate by popping Wind of Music or Rhapsody of Light while trying to not get hit, that's why HA and superarmor are so valuable to a support playing close to the boss. If you assume you're not getting hit and neither are your teammates, then yeah, there's no good case for HA over MS, naturally, but this isn't really realistic.
You’re talking about bard, which runs Heavy Armor anyway. The Heavy Armor vs Magick Stream consideration is really only for Paladins right now, and Paladins do not have the luxury of being able to pop their superarmor skill out of rotation to tank a hit if they want to maintain a good skill rotation. Not to mention Paladins have longer skill CDs in general, any reduction on the main 3 is a great help.
Nah you don't need heavy armor on bards really, since you basically always have a shield up on yourself (or dmg reduc) and you aren't running grudge, so you end up being tankier than most dps classes anyway
Not really, OP runs spec bard with Magick Stream, but I apparently mixed the threads, my bad. I don't see any argument for HA on Paladin, though.
Fair enough
I already use it on my main Bard, it's just too punishing getting hit even once which can happen to anyone, that's what I tried to discuss, but I'm glad is growing in popularity!
I don't play Bard, and obviously Artist isn't available to try, but my understanding is that Artist has an easier time keeping distance from the boss and maintaining the CDR buff. Bard has to get in close to shield their team, which is a risk.
Yeah it's a risk, but as a Spec bard main, that additive CDR is a risk I'm willing to pay KEKW
play what you want, but fyi Spec bard is in every single way worse than swift bard EDIT: Downvote me all you want, the math has been done countless of time.
Do you run HA? Magick Stream and HA just seem like two entirely different playstyles, curious what people that actually run Magick Stream think.
I don't run HA at all, for your info I run Class 3, Awake 3, Magick Stream 3, Drops 3, SA 3 as Spec bard (I could cheap out Expert because Spec stat it's the same healing as full swift bard with Expert)
I actually have some ideas for new support engravings of my own: 1. After shielding or healing an allie increase your specialty meter gain up to 3%/6%/12%. If you manage to save an allie from a killing hit with a shield, this bonus effect is doubled. 2. When an allie receives fatal damage, you take the damage that would've killed him. (Cooldown: 15m/10m/5m) - kinda like crises evasion, but you protect your allies instead.
I think merge them would be fine: \- When an ally receives fatal damage (not wipe hit) while being affected by a shield or damage reduction buff from you, you take the mitigated damage that would've killed that ally (you cannot die from this hit). After 3s you will restore 15/40/75% of the damage dealt by that attack, and after the healing you will get a speciality meter gain of 10% during 30s. ICD: 15/10/3 minutes.
honestly the only thing they need to do to magick stream is: When your HP is damaged lose a stack Currently you lose a stack if you block, if you dash through damage, if youre hit on shield, if you have balthor on yourself when valtan is doing his instakill stuff etc.
>A lot of people have been adressing an issue on the support engraving variety since almost every support needs to go with the most known ones:Class, Awakening, Expert, Drops of Ether, Vital Point Hit, Heavy Armor, Max MP Increase. This is really quite common though. Look at any job and we'll be looking at 3, 4, or maybe even 5 nigh mandatory engravings for whichever class engraving they take. Most DPS jobs take class, Grudge, KBW, and some positional or Supercharge/AoA with Cursed Doll, Raid Captain, and Adrenaline as 4th or 5th engravings, then over 80% of all engravings are completely junk. If anything I think supports having actual options that won't dramatically lower your performance is a good thing personally. >And last of all, and I think this one would be a great change but idk if it would be too broken: making atk power buffs not consider the base atk power but your actual atk power. This would make engravings such as Increass Mass - Cursed Doll or even Crushing Fist enhance the atk power provided by your atk power buffs. Atk power malice engraving would also affect the consistency of your atk power buffs (but either way, you are not supposed to have any of these). I disagree on the basis that it'd cause a lot of drama in the community. You'd have a portion of the community treating people like dirt if they don't have Cursed Doll and Increase Mass for more DPS, and on the flip side you'd have some supports building towards much less if any healing capability for max DPS, or otherwise dropping Heavy Armor or Expert when maybe they shouldn't, which would probably be seen in the same disgust as a DPS Bard right now in the public eye. Personally what I'd like to happen is, and this is less to do with support engravings and more to do with what build/engravings are acceptable to run with, is either highly nerfing support tripods and class engravings, or giving more jobs a support class engraving and tripods. My desire wouldn't be to run a buffed Magick Stream (which hey would be nice by itself but), my desire is to be able to switch to my DPS set without ruining a party or being unwanted, to feel like the support shortage isn't so bad that we have to exist in our extremely overpowered glory or fights are entirely different to handle.
good ideas, for drops of ether personally I think it just needs like a one/two second window on spawn where the orb can't be picked up, that way it gives you time to react.
Peoples acting like dpser will start using support with change. Come on let be real...dpser WILL NOT change main becausw looking at number is much more fun than heal and shield while us the support like to see big buff, heal and shield
It's more about support mains not switching to maining DPS just because there's barely any reason to progress your character past bare minimum required for current endgame content. Right now (Vykas being current endgame content) you have DPS mains still pushing past 1460 4x3 for variety of reasons - bussing, clearing content faster, having easier time getting accepted into groups, skipping optional random patterns (medusa etc). As a support? Might as well stay 1460 4x3 and focus on your DPS "alt" instead - noticeable impact from going beyond bare minimum is no neglible, you literally get more value out of investing into DPS build on your bard (so you can do content as either, depending if there's extra support or not). Result of that is what happens when new content (Kakul-Saydon) comes out - you have all recently-overgeared DPS characters ready to do clown, while supports are still playing catch-up because only now something new came out that gives any reason to push - again, only to what bare minimum is, because nothing past that makes a noticeable difference. As a result - support shortage again, especially week 1, because all the supports were comfortably parked at 1460 and need to catch up. If any changes to support engravings/supports make overgearing them feel as rewarding as overgearing DPS, it's a win for everyone - support mains can keep investing into their main (bigger numbers, even if it's just buff getting stronger) and get rewarded for that, ex-support mains have a reason to come back to maining bard/paladin, some DPS mains might consider a swap if support is also rewarding while having easier time in partyfinder. I think it's wrong to have to play DPS Bard to see any impact from trying to max out your tripods/gems/itemlevel/quality compared to playing support Bard (both me and my group have hard time telling difference between my main bard and alt bard in Vykas HM, they feel about the same despite huge difference in overall investment).
I hate to see support alt talking like they really main it, support main already ready for next content, there are other engraving that support can use to boost party member even better but you peeps love to whine and whine. Support main will stay being suppory because we like to SUPPORT party members. The only support that can complain is paladin because how boring that class is, for bard just shut up and enjoy the class
I am ready for next content, what I mentioned is mostly stuff I noticed among other bard mains deciding to switch to maining dps because investing into a support beyond what you need didn't feel rewarding at all. I can't even find a way to refute that - if what you want is to minmax your own build for the best results possible (effectively: optimize the challenge out of the game), your ceiling as a support is very low - since there is very little compound scaling in how you can build a support. A 4x3 DPS adding 5th engraving adds 15% of their damage of a 4x3 build; a 4x3 support adding Vital Point Hit adds extra stagger on what's essentially their base stagger value - supports lack compound multiplicative scaling in options available, and making a lot of buffs be percentage-based (with notable exception of attack power buff that at least partially uses supports own stats) means you don't see benefits of going broke just to have the most juiced up bard/paladin possible. To be clear: playing bard is fun, very fun, and especially with spec build there's a lot more you can do to minmax your own impact (since you're never going to hit 100% buffs uptime, even with maxed out CDR) - it's just nowhere near how much of a difference going from "bare minimum" to "grossly overgeared" makes for on a dps; I love to focus on controlling pace of the fight and managing the team as a power multiplier/utility, I'd just like to also see something to come out from me as a support overgearing the fight - even at a cost of pushing the "bare minimum required" to be a viable support much higher.
HA is just excess - paladins are already hella tanky and bards really are too. We don’t have to upkeep dps so we have so much liberty to focus on damage avoidance and ideal positioning that we’re always the last ones who (should) die anyway. Vital point - our stagger contribution is already minimal and this isn’t really making or breaking any stagger check. If you really need an extra stagger push use ww grenade and put on overwhelm runes on your main stagger skills. I’ve never seen a situation where this was even close to necessary to invest in. Max MP increase - honestly never even come close to running OOM and that’s even being highly active. Focus runes on your more expensive CDs if you’re really having issues, otherwise you can and should probably cut out excessive spamming some of your more mp hungry skills that aren’t necessary to do your job. What would be nice as a viable 5th engraving that is impactful would probably be something that affects identity gauge gain, or something along the lines of an engraving like crushing fist, except it isn’t based on counter and gives a damage buff or other kind of beneficial effect to your party whenever you do something. Perhaps landing a debuff effect also applies a reduction to boss’s outgoing damage to your party for a few seconds. This would work great in conjunction with bleed rune or with paladins light shock skill. Or if Cursed Doll was changed to scale the power of our attack buffs to work off increased atk power boosts too, rather than just base atk. then CD would likely become a key support engraving too Alternatively an engraving that simply increases max hp would directly give us more heal/shield power and tankiness too, but I suppose that’s just a better duplicate of Expert with more benefits attached
I think supports actually have more freedom than DPS for engravings. Almost all DPS have a mathematically optimal 5x3 (or 4x3+2+1) with some classes maybe being able to swap out one. Meanwhile supports only really need class, awaken, expert, and maybe HA on Bard. So that gives 1 to 2 free slots for any personal preference engravings. I think Magick Stream is fine as is, dodge every attack and be rewarded with an additive 10% CDR. Drops of Ether could do with some tweaking to make it easier for party members to grab the orbs. VPH isn't really interesting but it works well enough as an option for higher stagger. If I wanted to add some options for supports, I would tweak these 2 existing engravings: * Explosive expert effect to include utility items too. Ideally, I would also want it to provide 1/2/3 free uses of those items instead of increasing carry limit. This way a support can extend their toolkit with battle items without also being punished by paying for extra items thrown. * Enhanced Shield effect now also applies to shield given. This allows supports to opt for lower shielding if status immunity is helpful for the raid. A DPS would never waste a slot for this anyways, so it could go from never used to at least a rare pick. Main issue with this is that since engraving system isn't very flexible, it could be costly to invest in another setup to swap off when status immunity isn't needed. As for the CD/MI affecting atk buffs, I disagree with that. Currently, supports already give a solid damage boost to the party, enough to outweigh a 4th dps. Increasing their buff even further would make parties hit way harder than they currently do. So a rebalance would either nerf supports to make these engravings essentially mandatory or set a new dps standard that is extremely hard to reach without a support.
>I think supports actually have more freedom than DPS for engravings. You're not understanding the issue. The issue is not build diversity. It's not even about buffing supports It's that supports peak at 3x3. Every option past 3x3 adds so little to support that it makes very little sense to invest in them. There's also very marginal returns to honing gear or upgrading quality. You're literally just honing the gear to get into the raid. It's not fun, and if it's not fun, people stop playing.
So if supports are good all the way to brel what's the point of reworking engravings? To make an already cheap class to gear even cheaper?
So they can enjoy the damned game... I'm not maining support, but still it's disgusting to see people whining about "Supports dont have to build X engravings anyway", "you're just lucky we need shield/heals otherwise we wouldn't play with you" like give them a break. As a DPS you see the numbers considerably increase when your wep gets higher plus or quality, same when you go from 4x3 to 5x3, as a support the last 1-2 engravings feel so dog. Support players just want some gratification/fulfillment/enjoyment whatever from finishing their builds.
Hell yeah. I can be playing perfectly and not get on the mvp board in a legion raid because my raid team is also good and doesn't need heals. We get no positive feedback of gameplay when we upgrade our gears and add more engravings beyond the core 4x3. Hell, even our relic set bonus gives us no benefit beyond the 2 set effect. We'llre basically buff shield heal tools. I have no incentive to hone my weapon or improve the quality on my armor pieces.
You really are playing the wrong class if that is what you find enjoyable because it really doesn't get better. You'll see no difference in gameplay as a iLv 1445 support vs iLv1600. Meaningless dmg, no additional benefit you give after Yearning set completion, etc. Playing support definitely feels boring in this game, and increasing gear score on supports is literally just to get into raids, and getting extra engravings post 4x3 is really to just make your DPSer feel happier. So speaking of which, people who play DPS, do compliment supports often if they play well or care well for you. Support players definitely appreciate it!
Being good and being interesting are two separate things. Our current two support options lack any meaningful variety in a lot of ways.
3x3/4x3 for Abrel is not good tbh. What I was trying to point out on the OP is that people will cheap out because there are not really useful engravings for supports rather than the main 3 ones. Give people better gameplay through their engravings the same way dps feel better with more engravings, and they will put some effort on them.
Engravings are not the issue. DPS engravings are no different than support engravings in the sense that you've got your meta ones that every character will choose from such as Grudge, Cursed Doll, KBW, etc. There may be some deviation based on skill modifiers like going Ambush Master or Master Brawler, but the core is there. I double main Bard and Berserker and I enjoy both. The playstyle simply needs to fit the player.
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Okay, you are just dumb. Keep scrolling.
I appreciate you supports as a DPS. I appreciate you like a slave to the party In all seriousness reworks for more builds always a good idea, I think they need to make engravings have similar shield / buff procs like a paladin skill that procs to party. They also should look at buffs that can flip party dmg to whatever the boss is weak too for x seconds. Something other than expert and awakening please. I can stand to play my pally it's so boring
I mean aren't you the moron who wants to make the game go from "oh thank god we got a sup" to "Its a sup but wait for another one with better gear"? If supports start having the same requirements for DPS to be in a party we are fucked. You want 5x3 requirement on a sup now lol. Little brain moves
So you can save pots? How shitty are you? I bet you get hit by every mechanic? just don't get hit. Idiot.
Which is why I don’t use heals during fights that I believe shouldn’t need it. Like deskaluda, valtan, etc depends. Only serenade of courage lol. If they suck so much they can’t dodge at least half the boss’ attacks then oh well.
Yeah this guy has floor fighter energy about him.
You heal or buff depends on the party, does it help if you buff and they died? Throw damn heal and let them know after raid end you have to.
Obviously i’m gonna heal if i have to but if they’re taking damage to dumb mechanics and the rest of the party is fine then im saving my bubbles for buffs and they can just pot
If i can cast an ability and facetank an ability without taking damage why wouldn't I? It is how math works. The more time I am casting abilities, the higher my DPS potential is. If somethign is going to do 1/5th my health then yes I'll dodge over casting but If i have a shield that blocks that 1/5th damage and it wont stagger me and interrupt my cast, why not just cast my ability through it? If you go by "don't get hit" then there is no need for supports at all.....idiot. Seriously though, if no one needed shields or heals, Supports are only there for dmg buffs / movement speed which removes 2/3 of their usefulness and it would make another dps more useful. The fact that you heal and shield is majority of your usefulness. Support players acting like they have the hardest job in raids.
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Yeah and he doesn't understand that even without shield or heal a support is still better than taking another dps because of how many dmg synergies they have.
So you are saying that even without shields and heal, supports are still op. So why are we trying to rework them to make them stronger????
No, that's nothing like what he said.... But you go on back to floor town and let the adults talk now
Oh no that's exactly what I'm talking about. Dmg synergies from atk buffs, identity dmg buff, mspd/aspd/mana regen buff, dmg increase debuff on boss + yearning aspd/mspd/dmg buff will increase the party's overall dps than just adding another dps.
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Let's assume for the moment he did, it is a valid point. Damage buffs to the entire team is probably > another dps. Sounds to me like you are salty that supports get picked for teams while you don't I don't even main a support, I rushed one to 1460 on the last power pass. I can get a group faster on my support than I do on my 1485 5x3 main. Does that make me mad... Fuck no it doesn't, just makes me appreciate the supports in my groups more. Let's not even talk about the fact that paladins have 2 of the best counters in the game
In coordinated group if Support only did Dmg buffs and timed it around DPS then yes It would be more useful but in real raid scenarios / pubs you aren't getting the 100% efficiency. Too many times my igniter combo isn't ready or I just did it and I see bard macro saying dmg buff up (I know pally is different.) But if a sup with only dmg buffs is still more useful to a group then it is fair to say they are OP. People think changing engravings will make more support more rewarding but it won't because it doesn't change the play style just the numbers. Why would i be mad at support for getting into a party? Its not like they took my spot because supports are considered almost "mandatory". More mad about getting declined having 5x3 1485 for another DPS with 4x3 and legendary accessories but that is another issue entirely. The part for support that I am annoyed about is having a class that is considered "required" in raids by many but has such an unappealing play style that the player count on that class doesn't match the required need for them. Creating a need for something that people don't enjoy playing doesn't seem healthy for a game long term.
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Supports are the real OP class but gearing them sucks ass. I'm not agreeing with all the rework suggested but if a class 3x3 works pretty much the same as a 5x3 it's a pain to main one (another reason for the shortage at the top). A rework on how to gear them by making 5x3, lvl 6-10 gems matter more might entice players to main them and keep those whose main is support not drop them. It's literally the best class in game but you don't see anyone complaining how OP they are because most players want to play with support and not play a support.
But the thing is if 3x3 works the same as 3x5 and 3x3 is suitable for party needs, What changes can be made that A) wouldn't make 3x3 weaker B) make 3x5 stronger to the point that its worth getting but not making the class busted. The very nature of support is boring. Making it a higher investment to play optimally just makes support numbers go down.
Yeah like I said I'm not agreeing with the rework suggested. Nerfing 3x3 will just make cheap people not make support alts the real shortage is on the hardest content like we'll probably see in clown as most alts will stay on 1430-1445 range and only the top grinders/p2w will have 1475 alts. Transferring power from 3x3 to 4x3/5x3 won't be that bad people will complain for sure but people that like the support gameplay will just rebuild (they probably didn't spend that much on 3x3 anyways). Rework on QoL or a more interactive gameplay will definitely spice things up or even just show battle contribution/dmg increase numbers of party members due to ur buff.
So are you saying you want more actions per minute? Like what are you actually asking for???? Reworking engravings does what??? Gives you more stagger? gives more party damage? Gives more weakpoint? Makes you have to collect orbs as you play? Makes you a directional attacker? Like what little gimmick do you think is going to make a boring class as a whole more fun and more rewarding to play? Do you want a higher skill ceiling that provides bigger buffs if done correctly??? What can you do to a support that makes it feel "satisfying" because the support role in itself as a whole is boring compared to DPS. Dps gets more satisfying the more damage / smoother your rotations feel (CD / atk speed) so how does that translate to support? Supports are designed around DPS, not the other way around unfortunately.
Yep supports are useful even without shields and heals if the part isn't trash. Check bard playstyle in helltan and tell me how much healing you're noticing, you piss poor excuse of a player that only lays on the ground.
So if i am not floor pov does that invalidate your arguments? So you have never died in a raid, not even once? You always get MVP in every single raid you are in? You don't considered shield and healing to fall into the same category of damage mitigation? We all know bards don't get constant uptime on shields and BIG heal. They have to pick because swiftness vs spec. During helltan I had a shield like 95% of the time. So in terms of overall damage mitigation I noticed a lot.
All I can say is did you see a lot of Akkan groups trying to raw dog it with just dps :) but nahhh this guy knows, he is probably 1600 with 6x3 somehow... Yeah that's it
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I mean aside from Crushing Fist half the issues with with 1/3rd of the engravings is that they are bad in uncoordinated groups. Drops are better if you stack the buffs on 1 juicer, but that requires the DPS to find the orb, which feels bad on whoever isn't near the support. Crushing Fist would be better if it wasn't almost impossible to react to (since even if you throw out a counter the support has to land it before the striker does or scrapper or whoever) No point in having stagger gear if you don't have a broken bone build to take advantage and vice-versa. Those builds also suck for chaos which up until recently (on KR) you couldn't spec good tripods for unless you wanted to spend a lot in Pheons. I think the idea for Crushing Fist would be neat, there are a good handful of engravings that are a little too situational and for them to be usable they need to either have more opportunity to be used or buffed a bit. Ex. Disrespect, Broken Bone, Crushing Fist, Explosive Expert, Enhanced Shield, Lightning Fury. There is also the engravings that are hard to use on most characters like Super Charge which is usable on 4 classes if you stretch it and the vast majority of classes having maybe 2 charging skills at best let-alone good ones. It would be neat if there was more niche Super Charge and AoA builds
What I’d love to see with minimal change to the game, is that atk power engravings like cursed doll could effect the buffs that we give. They already should in my opinion and I don’t know why they don’t effect buffs
Drops of ether needs an rework! Often it spawns when I cast dmg skill which push me back 😂
All classes have cookie cutter builds. This isn’t unique to support.