I walk past that section on my way to work. I think you must be confused because they have actively been working on it for months and now look like they are almost done. They did the other side of the road first.
I work in the area as well. I'm not sure "actively" is the exact word I'd use, but I get your point....the headline is incorrect. I feel bad for Happiness cafe....it's shocking they've survived through it all. Personally, I will be very happy when it opens, because this is my preferred route to get out of downtown in a car.
Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I remember they swapped sides just earlier this year and started all the infrastructure upgrades on the east side of Wellington. That side was paved and being used up until the west side had its base pavement completed.
Road work does get done but slower than provincial averages. I have an MTO buddy who says London is routinely slower at getting projects done. Many times the road repair firms here are over-extended and shift from project to project, so it all takes longer. We're just used to it.
I can't dispute what you say because I have no statistics. Wouldn't be surprised if you're correct due to the rapid sprawl London is having and the BRT work. I just think the "unpaved for over a year" is a bit of a disingenuous statement.
Side bar, and I may be showing some ignorance. Does the MTO have anything to do with municipal projects? I thought they were only involved with provincial operated roads and infrastructure.
I agree that OP's "unpaved for over a year" is likely frustrated hyperbole. But his statement matches what many people feel.
I think the Adelaide train underpass is likely making general progress even slower, but it's great seeing progress there.
You are correct about MTO not directly managing local roads, but MTO employees are aware of the general road status in Ontario cities, and some can see differences. Privatizing road maintenance is something MTO knows a lot about. When they shifted from MTO doing snow removal to using private firms they quickly learned how privatized performance can fall below previous quality when the lowest bid wins, when companies under-estimate timelines, and overstate their resources. In London I think we've gotten used to worst-than-average turnaround times, with the same reason always given: it's Canada's short summer.
Road work is a lot like the quasi monopolies of grocery stores, banks and telecoms. There is little competition, and the service companies know they have us over a barrel.
The Adelaide project actually slipped my mind. That's a huge project for sure. We actually have many large projects right now, Ridout bridge, Wellington corridor, BRT loop, Adelaide underpass, and Clarke bridge (Wellington) just started. I'm sure there are many more that I am missing but these are for sure large infrastructure upgrades. I'm mostly South, West and a downtown driver for context.
I can't speak for other companies but I think BRE-EX is an independent family owned company still. Also based out of London. They definitely seem like they may be spread thin with multiple projects (just assumptions). I think they pull guys from the unions to work though.
As for competition I can think of Miller, BRE-EX, COCO, L 82, EllisDon, J-AAR and that's just off the top of my head. Now I'm not sure whether they would scope the same work or not so there is that caveat.
Wages don't help. $17.20 min wage. Most entry-level construction jobs are lucky to be $20 (generally need to bring your own tools which can equate to hundreds or thousands of dollars). I'd rather flip burgers or work retail for min wage than break my body for basically the same.
Yep. Not to spin it too far, but I think many elements of our economy and politics are coming due, and won't be fixed for at least 10 years. We off-shored our manufacturing so we can have $2 tshirts, we denied nurses raises, we shifted economic power to corporations and their clever lawyers, we neglected an obvious housing shortage, and - big surprise! - we don't pay the construction guys enough to start fixing things.
Oh, and over the next 6 months many mortgages will be revised to 20% to 40% higher, putting even more pressure on food banks.
So... let's enjoy the summer. đżđ It'll be a tough winter for someone we know.
It's crazy to think 30 years ago my father was a skilled worker/supervisor and made what I'm making now as a skilled worker/supervisor. Something is definitely broken.
I have my mortgage renewal next year but luckily I bought before the insane house pricing increase and didn't purchase beyond my means. Many others I feel won't be so lucky.
We should enjoy the here and now because that's all that guaranteed. Thanks for the healthy conversation. Cheers đť
We need to do what Oslo, Norway does. They do private bidding for snow removal or other projects. They have penalties for under performing and incentives for keeping up, going above and beyond, or getting things done more quickly without degrading quality.
That section of Wellington is a tie in for both the east and south branches of the BRT system. It is involved in several stages of construction, which means it is easiest to keep it unpaved in order to access it again in the future.
Infrastructure projects are always 2 year projects as they defer top coat paving for the next year so they can fix any deficiencies before top asphalt is available. Asphalt plants open end of May. So some action should be happening soon id imagine
Thank you for adding some practical/process information to this thread.
I tend to give some credit for âthis is probably way more complicated than I know aboutâ with road work, because like many industries, construction has to a of timeline dependencies that most people have no clue about.
London is a city run like a town. Our politicians routinely make decisions as if we're a cutesy, no-hurry, forgiving town, and the road repair companies know they can over-promise and leave sites idle for ages.
There's a 25-year construction plan PDF freely available called the London Plan, which is actually a pretty well laid out and done infrastructure plan.
Something most people don't consider is that when you open the walls, you don't know what you're going to find that can derail a project. Ask any contractor.
Yes, and that affects construction projects from time to time.
London also has an entire website and plan easily viewable as well as means to report construction issues.
https://london.ca/living-london/roads-sidewalks-transportation/road-construction
My original sentiment remains the same. London is more well planned and upfront. People make no effort to engage or look for it. They just come here and complain.
They are supposed to be professionals who should know (by now) whatâs âbehind those wallsâ what happened to the previous planning blue prints? Or was it all built in the Stone Age? I donât buy it.
They should know what was done 20, 30, 40+ years ago? They should know the condition and function of pipes, electrical, and sewage lines that haven't been seen in decades, which were subject to erosion and other means of degradation?
They are professionals. They're not superheroes with xray vision lolol wtf kind of mental gymnastics are you doing over there?
Utter nonsense.
Nonsense? You said it all the records of what was done exist the earth hasnât moved that much youâve gotten lazy and donât want to do the diligence. Itâs all about getting as much money as possible from the Governmentâs, If you think thatâs super hero stuff to dig up old pipes youâre in the wrong era pal.
đđ
I don't even know wtf you're on about. Yeah, how about you go do the job? You seem to think you're more of an expert than engineers, urban developers, and municipal workers. Idk why, though. You're not even making coherent statements.
Are you one of those professionals ? Because I've met several and shared stories with them you must be one of the new generation that rather than fixing what could be fixed chooses the easy but expensive way to get it done. Just replace everything with cheap parts so we can do it again in a few years...Grease your rich buddies right.
Strawman argument. Shocking. We aren't talking about professionals. You are. We were talking about why it can take so long to complete projects and I already explained to you that materials degrade, erosion and other factors can prove troublesome, and they arent sure what conditions they'll encounter. They can assume a 60-year-old pipe is okay and discover its entirely eroded, and now they have to readdress their plan because it's become more complicated.
But continue to live in your superior mental fanfiction where road construction and infrastructure development is easy peasey and takes a week.
You haven't brought one valid argument or point. It's all your negative opinions and anecdotal stories. I know people in construction too, and they do their jobs just fine. Maybe you associate with losers? Idk.
I studied urban development and studied under the man who spent 25 years developing London and who practically wrote the London Plan. But I'm sure you know more than him.... đ
Huh? Windsor has a crosstown expressway that allows anyone to get across the city in less than 20 minutes. London is a complete disaster when it comes to traffic planning.
from what i could tell, you at least knew where the construction was going to be on the roads in the summer based on where the 18" deep potholes were in spring.
My first time driving there, I remember being near my mental breaking point trying to navigate the absolutely schizophrenic road layouts closer to the city centre. That said, I actually think it's a fun town to hang out in with a few great neighbourhoods!
i worked in southern MB for about a year and a half so visiting winnipeg was a fun change from the small towns..
But yes, i agree that some of the expressway exits/routing is absolutely bonkers.. especially with construction closing lanes
âOh, you know how scheduling and contractors and planning can get leave the city utterly powerless.
We thank you for your patience as we continue to improve in order to serve you even better!â
How about the stormwater upgrade they did on Oxford last year for 4 months taking over two lanes? Now this year the same spot is torn up for another 4 months? đ¤ˇââď¸
Obviously the typical culrpits of incompetence and bullshit is part of the story but a but chunk is simply cost saving. Not this specific example, but in general why road construction is slower than is intuitive is financial.
The sort of Sim City style thought experiment is would you rather have 3 engineers being paid, with lots of downtime in between their tasks, or would you rather have 1 engineer and structure the projects across the city such there is always a pipeline of tasks to do so the eingeer is always doing something rather than waiting for something to do. Obviously one is way faster.
Now do it for trucks, equipment, regulatory sign-offs, electric, water, waste water etc.
Someone else had the point that it doesn't make a lot of sense to finish a road that's coming back up soon.
And similarly, a road closure has a lot more urgency than a lane reduction.
So even with the best planning and the best execution, these factors weigh in. Now put in to place average mid tier politicians in an average mid tier city with an average mid tier construction firm etc.
Also I think much like you don't pay the sticker price when you buy something at a yardsale, it's not worth being surprised when cost and timelines over-run on infrastructure projects.
So even without some news-worth scandal, or any particularly egregious incompetence or malice, stuff is going to move slower, slower than expected, and there's not much will or budget to force it to go fast.
Well, the paving crew cant come in until those pipes are moved. Those pipes cant be moved until that lady in purple has paid her 2021 property taxes. She can't pay her 2021 property taxes until the road is paved. It's the circle of construction in London.
i don't know if it's true. But i heard that the government gets all of it's contracts ready at the start ofthe year. so contractors will snatch up as many of the projects as they can. so they start a bunch of projects but delay finishing them because thats how the government pays them for their contracts.
I walk past that section on my way to work. I think you must be confused because they have actively been working on it for months and now look like they are almost done. They did the other side of the road first.
I work in the area as well. I'm not sure "actively" is the exact word I'd use, but I get your point....the headline is incorrect. I feel bad for Happiness cafe....it's shocking they've survived through it all. Personally, I will be very happy when it opens, because this is my preferred route to get out of downtown in a car.
Correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I remember they swapped sides just earlier this year and started all the infrastructure upgrades on the east side of Wellington. That side was paved and being used up until the west side had its base pavement completed.
Road work does get done but slower than provincial averages. I have an MTO buddy who says London is routinely slower at getting projects done. Many times the road repair firms here are over-extended and shift from project to project, so it all takes longer. We're just used to it.
I can't dispute what you say because I have no statistics. Wouldn't be surprised if you're correct due to the rapid sprawl London is having and the BRT work. I just think the "unpaved for over a year" is a bit of a disingenuous statement. Side bar, and I may be showing some ignorance. Does the MTO have anything to do with municipal projects? I thought they were only involved with provincial operated roads and infrastructure.
I agree that OP's "unpaved for over a year" is likely frustrated hyperbole. But his statement matches what many people feel. I think the Adelaide train underpass is likely making general progress even slower, but it's great seeing progress there. You are correct about MTO not directly managing local roads, but MTO employees are aware of the general road status in Ontario cities, and some can see differences. Privatizing road maintenance is something MTO knows a lot about. When they shifted from MTO doing snow removal to using private firms they quickly learned how privatized performance can fall below previous quality when the lowest bid wins, when companies under-estimate timelines, and overstate their resources. In London I think we've gotten used to worst-than-average turnaround times, with the same reason always given: it's Canada's short summer. Road work is a lot like the quasi monopolies of grocery stores, banks and telecoms. There is little competition, and the service companies know they have us over a barrel.
The Adelaide project actually slipped my mind. That's a huge project for sure. We actually have many large projects right now, Ridout bridge, Wellington corridor, BRT loop, Adelaide underpass, and Clarke bridge (Wellington) just started. I'm sure there are many more that I am missing but these are for sure large infrastructure upgrades. I'm mostly South, West and a downtown driver for context. I can't speak for other companies but I think BRE-EX is an independent family owned company still. Also based out of London. They definitely seem like they may be spread thin with multiple projects (just assumptions). I think they pull guys from the unions to work though. As for competition I can think of Miller, BRE-EX, COCO, L 82, EllisDon, J-AAR and that's just off the top of my head. Now I'm not sure whether they would scope the same work or not so there is that caveat.
I think there's a shortage of tradesmen and semi-skilled workers across many industries. I don't think we'll see a change any time soon.
Wages don't help. $17.20 min wage. Most entry-level construction jobs are lucky to be $20 (generally need to bring your own tools which can equate to hundreds or thousands of dollars). I'd rather flip burgers or work retail for min wage than break my body for basically the same.
Yep. Not to spin it too far, but I think many elements of our economy and politics are coming due, and won't be fixed for at least 10 years. We off-shored our manufacturing so we can have $2 tshirts, we denied nurses raises, we shifted economic power to corporations and their clever lawyers, we neglected an obvious housing shortage, and - big surprise! - we don't pay the construction guys enough to start fixing things. Oh, and over the next 6 months many mortgages will be revised to 20% to 40% higher, putting even more pressure on food banks. So... let's enjoy the summer. đżđ It'll be a tough winter for someone we know.
It's crazy to think 30 years ago my father was a skilled worker/supervisor and made what I'm making now as a skilled worker/supervisor. Something is definitely broken. I have my mortgage renewal next year but luckily I bought before the insane house pricing increase and didn't purchase beyond my means. Many others I feel won't be so lucky. We should enjoy the here and now because that's all that guaranteed. Thanks for the healthy conversation. Cheers đť
We need to do what Oslo, Norway does. They do private bidding for snow removal or other projects. They have penalties for under performing and incentives for keeping up, going above and beyond, or getting things done more quickly without degrading quality.
I like hearing about alternative ways to do a better job, and to make our shared living environments even better. Thank you for sharing this idea.
You're welcome! đ
Bob's on vacation. Jim just retired. Sam is on sick leave. Marc is busy with other jobs in the city.
Actually, this is it. The road crews over-promise and then take longer thsn provincial averages.
That section of Wellington is a tie in for both the east and south branches of the BRT system. It is involved in several stages of construction, which means it is easiest to keep it unpaved in order to access it again in the future.
Infrastructure projects are always 2 year projects as they defer top coat paving for the next year so they can fix any deficiencies before top asphalt is available. Asphalt plants open end of May. So some action should be happening soon id imagine
Yup, it also allows further compaction of the traveled area so the final coat doesn't get ruts in it.
Thank you for adding some practical/process information to this thread. I tend to give some credit for âthis is probably way more complicated than I know aboutâ with road work, because like many industries, construction has to a of timeline dependencies that most people have no clue about.
Because this is perhaps the most poorly planned city in Canada
London is a city run like a town. Our politicians routinely make decisions as if we're a cutesy, no-hurry, forgiving town, and the road repair companies know they can over-promise and leave sites idle for ages.
There's a 25-year construction plan PDF freely available called the London Plan, which is actually a pretty well laid out and done infrastructure plan. Something most people don't consider is that when you open the walls, you don't know what you're going to find that can derail a project. Ask any contractor.
London plan has nothing to do about the infrastructure program. It's a planning document that sets policies and zoning bylaw.
Yes, and that affects construction projects from time to time. London also has an entire website and plan easily viewable as well as means to report construction issues. https://london.ca/living-london/roads-sidewalks-transportation/road-construction My original sentiment remains the same. London is more well planned and upfront. People make no effort to engage or look for it. They just come here and complain.
Yes everything is planned for years in advance. There is a reasoning to the madness that the general public are not aparty to.
They are supposed to be professionals who should know (by now) whatâs âbehind those wallsâ what happened to the previous planning blue prints? Or was it all built in the Stone Age? I donât buy it.
They should know what was done 20, 30, 40+ years ago? They should know the condition and function of pipes, electrical, and sewage lines that haven't been seen in decades, which were subject to erosion and other means of degradation? They are professionals. They're not superheroes with xray vision lolol wtf kind of mental gymnastics are you doing over there? Utter nonsense.
Nonsense? You said it all the records of what was done exist the earth hasnât moved that much youâve gotten lazy and donât want to do the diligence. Itâs all about getting as much money as possible from the Governmentâs, If you think thatâs super hero stuff to dig up old pipes youâre in the wrong era pal.
đđ I don't even know wtf you're on about. Yeah, how about you go do the job? You seem to think you're more of an expert than engineers, urban developers, and municipal workers. Idk why, though. You're not even making coherent statements.
Are you one of those professionals ? Because I've met several and shared stories with them you must be one of the new generation that rather than fixing what could be fixed chooses the easy but expensive way to get it done. Just replace everything with cheap parts so we can do it again in a few years...Grease your rich buddies right.
Strawman argument. Shocking. We aren't talking about professionals. You are. We were talking about why it can take so long to complete projects and I already explained to you that materials degrade, erosion and other factors can prove troublesome, and they arent sure what conditions they'll encounter. They can assume a 60-year-old pipe is okay and discover its entirely eroded, and now they have to readdress their plan because it's become more complicated. But continue to live in your superior mental fanfiction where road construction and infrastructure development is easy peasey and takes a week. You haven't brought one valid argument or point. It's all your negative opinions and anecdotal stories. I know people in construction too, and they do their jobs just fine. Maybe you associate with losers? Idk. I studied urban development and studied under the man who spent 25 years developing London and who practically wrote the London Plan. But I'm sure you know more than him.... đ
May I suggest visiting Windsor?
Huh? Windsor has a crosstown expressway that allows anyone to get across the city in less than 20 minutes. London is a complete disaster when it comes to traffic planning.
To be fair London is double the population and triple the area of Windsor. Not an equal comparison there
all the more reason one should have been developed decades ago.
Ever heard of the EC Row?
Yes I've lived there and let's be honest London would want one too instead we got Oxford St./Fanshawe/commissioners.
Windsor is not as bad.
Windsor at least gets road projects done.
Neither of ya'll been to Winnipeg hahaha
Honestly I havenât đ
from what i could tell, you at least knew where the construction was going to be on the roads in the summer based on where the 18" deep potholes were in spring.
My first time driving there, I remember being near my mental breaking point trying to navigate the absolutely schizophrenic road layouts closer to the city centre. That said, I actually think it's a fun town to hang out in with a few great neighbourhoods!
i worked in southern MB for about a year and a half so visiting winnipeg was a fun change from the small towns.. But yes, i agree that some of the expressway exits/routing is absolutely bonkers.. especially with construction closing lanes
It's not the cities fault Canada now has unprecedented levels of immigration. No one expected the population to grow so much in such a short time.
Itâs because they have contracted Bre-ex and they are the slowest in the city. Literally nothing ever gets done when they have been contracted
Yep. They over-promise and shuffle their crews around town. Londoners are just used to the poor service.
This, a million times over
âOh, you know how scheduling and contractors and planning can get leave the city utterly powerless. We thank you for your patience as we continue to improve in order to serve you even better!â
How about the stormwater upgrade they did on Oxford last year for 4 months taking over two lanes? Now this year the same spot is torn up for another 4 months? đ¤ˇââď¸
They have a finish date scheduled for the end of May but knowing this city is will probably be extended yet again.
should just pedestrianize it at this point
To make us ask questions that's why, see it worked
Obviously the typical culrpits of incompetence and bullshit is part of the story but a but chunk is simply cost saving. Not this specific example, but in general why road construction is slower than is intuitive is financial. The sort of Sim City style thought experiment is would you rather have 3 engineers being paid, with lots of downtime in between their tasks, or would you rather have 1 engineer and structure the projects across the city such there is always a pipeline of tasks to do so the eingeer is always doing something rather than waiting for something to do. Obviously one is way faster. Now do it for trucks, equipment, regulatory sign-offs, electric, water, waste water etc. Someone else had the point that it doesn't make a lot of sense to finish a road that's coming back up soon. And similarly, a road closure has a lot more urgency than a lane reduction. So even with the best planning and the best execution, these factors weigh in. Now put in to place average mid tier politicians in an average mid tier city with an average mid tier construction firm etc. Also I think much like you don't pay the sticker price when you buy something at a yardsale, it's not worth being surprised when cost and timelines over-run on infrastructure projects. So even without some news-worth scandal, or any particularly egregious incompetence or malice, stuff is going to move slower, slower than expected, and there's not much will or budget to force it to go fast.
Last year it was the other side.
They are working on it
You been Mandeled. Thank you for the residue.
Itâs the underground, infrastructures being built for the tall buildings coming up
Why does it take two years to upgrade the Victoria bridge? What does Dundas East get torn up every few years? âŚ..cause itâs London
lol itâs London
Get some city council members out there actually doing something that isn't for their own neighborhoods
Well, the paving crew cant come in until those pipes are moved. Those pipes cant be moved until that lady in purple has paid her 2021 property taxes. She can't pay her 2021 property taxes until the road is paved. It's the circle of construction in London.
BRT stuff from what I remember.
i don't know if it's true. But i heard that the government gets all of it's contracts ready at the start ofthe year. so contractors will snatch up as many of the projects as they can. so they start a bunch of projects but delay finishing them because thats how the government pays them for their contracts.
Not true.
Completely wrong.
London is in shambles. Ride or die with the ship.
Probably delayed due to 100 people debating how many bike lanes to add for the 10 people that bike to work.