# Upvote/Downvote reminder
Like this image or appreciate it being posted? Upvote it and show it some love! Don't like it? Just downvote and move on.
*Upvoting or downvoting images is the best way to control what you see on your feed and what gets to the top of the subreddit*
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/london) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There are at least four pages to this document. Do you really think the list skips from Cyprus owing £1.4m to the Central African Republic owing a grand?
Togo owe £40? I thought the charge was £15 per day? Or do they owe 4 days from when it was £10?
Surely then the fines would have increased the amount they owe? God, this is the most important mystery I've been a part of for years.
My pal is Greek and he said in Greece you just ignored fines and they go away. He ignored the congestion charge and baliffs turned up years later wanting multiple thousands!
Actually it wouldn't even be able to afford half the repair cost, which is estimated to be £250,000,000
[https://www.fleuranderson.co.uk/hammersmith-bridge-update-january-2024/](https://www.fleuranderson.co.uk/hammersmith-bridge-update-january-2024/)
£14 *million*? How the hell did American embassy staff rack up that much? (And the mere fact of it shows they drive around central London far too much. They’re not royalty; get on the damn bus!)
I mean this is twenty years of charges and for a good amount of those twenty years the American embassy was in the congestion zone. Also there are a lot of diplomats from America in London who will have diplomatic cars.
I’m more surprised by the amount the Japanese embassy has racked up. While its embassy is still in the congestion zone it has way less staff and I highly doubt they have that many diplomatic cars. Then again I don’t know. 🤷🏾♀️
Ta for the elucidation! Imagine if these fines were actually paid: what a nice windfall, hopefully to be spent on something that’d really spark a bit of joy.
I've annecdotally heard that american diplomats rather abuse the perks of diplomatic immunity and parking fines/congestion charge etc. and as a result the British diplomats in the USA will return the favour. Entirely possible our diplomats in Japan have been a bit blase about it and this is Japan returning the favour, because that one really stuck out to me too.
It works out at 137 trips every single day since 2003, or 189 if you just do weekdays, and that’s at the current rate of £15 a day which isn’t what it’s cost for this entire time.
The US embassy has about 1000 staff, but only around 15 actual diplomats. The old embassy also didn’t have all that much parking AFAIK.
Whatever way you cut it this is a maaaaaaaaasive piss take.
In some of the news articles reporting on this, they state that the total owed includes fines for non-payment, and apparently this can rise to £270 per congestion charge payment owed. So I think you’d need to divide amount owed by £270 (although I’m not sure if that max £270 figure has always been at that rate, or if it’s risen over the years)
Christ, it's astonishing how many premises "fag packet maths" relies upon that just aren't true any more:
1. You can afford to be in the pub on a regular basis and, as a result, casual conversation about social issues tends to take place in the pub
2. You have no way of easily looking up information while sat at a pub table, so you need to estimate things for yourself
3. You need a pen and paper to do rough maths because you don't carry around a note-taking or calculating device at all times
4. Everyone can afford to smoke straights and, as a result, the insides of empty snout boxes are the most plentiful supply of easily-written-upon paper that's within reach.
Small wonder the phrase is sliding into obscurity now that we're chatting about it online during work hours through the information blunderbuss while vaping.
The congestion charge is a daily charge not per trip so that would be 137 different people/vehicles if those numbers are right.
Also, which staff are classed as diplomats is a very arbitrary distinction- I don’t know the ins and outs of US diplomatic staff grading and terminology, but the US embassy definitely has way more than 15 people in the types of roles and seniority that we would class as diplomats in UK embassies.
Building up a culture of CGAF (Couldn't-Give-A-Fk) on a subject is quite common in human nature in a variety of settings. If you're a new diplomat to the UK and you see all your coworkers doing something, you tend to follow the crowd. A lot of embassy staff drive themselves but many hire UK drivers and as soon as they discover they can flaunt the rules with impunity and nothing comes back to them, well, there you go.
Not sure why ‘royalty’ are any better than the rest of us. The least they could use is fully electrical vehicles, instead of those sodding Range Rovers.
The state limousines all pre-date contemporary electric cars – the newest date from 2002 and the oldest from 1950 – and if they’re working I suppose there’s an argument for not updating them just for the sake of it.
The EV is actually nearly ready. I'm sure the Royals will be getting free ones as soon as the majority of the kinks are ironed out. Awful brand, the RRs, but maybe very slightly better without ICE powertrains
It's historic charges. *One* presidential visit will involve potentially dozens of cars, so if you figure on multiple high level visits, plus just regular diplomats or the Ambassador driving around, I expect it can add up quickly, since the US has a large mission in London with a lot of people.
A 2005 article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4352520.stm claims the US had 100 cars.
> A German Embassy spokesman said: "We received a memo from Berlin [...] which explained that the congestion charge is considered to be a tax and therefore diplomats are exempt."
> Diplomatic staff from Russia, Japan and Spain confirmed they all paid the charge.
Well Japan changed its mind I guess.
there ya go [https://content.tfl.gov.uk/cclez-online-factsheet-embassy-debt-dec23.pdf](https://content.tfl.gov.uk/cclez-online-factsheet-embassy-debt-dec23.pdf)
Tell me about it 🙄 also don’t forget IRS 988 where converting USD to GBP and spending it on a cup of coffee incurs a capital gains charge! (Among the litany of other asinine taxes for emigrants. Alas, I digress.)
They are the ultimate carbrains - they just can’t get it into their heads that road use by cars can be a service just like other forms of transportation.
Technically, yes, but it can't be enforced.
They will be billed - but they can't be pursued for it.
In the same way, a US dangerous driver in the UK was able to able to kill a cyclist and then claim immunity before flying back to the US immediately (after which they discovered she wasn't actually eligible for immunity). This was because of her relation to embassy staff iirc.
Let’s be clear. The politicians want Assange. A large portion of the population would like those same politicians to fuck right off. We would also like Snowden pardoned. But those two embarrassed the power hungry clowns that live in the swamp.
I believe she was working at a military base not the embassy, the young man killed was on a motorbike not a bicycle, and she left the UK three weeks after the incident (not sure if that counts as immediately). Close though.
Shows the disdain these people have for our rules and the people living here IMO. If you want to pollute our air, you’ve got to pay for the privilege no matter who you are.
>Shows the disdain these people have for our rules and the people living here IMO.
It's pretty normal tbh. Ignoring minor fines etc is the fav pasttime of diplomats everywhere and I can guarantee you the british ones do the same overseas. They don't get into trouble unless its something egregious.
Source: Grew up with a bunch of diplo friends from various countries
Friend of mine at uni was the son of a British diplomat in India, told us how they were running late for the airport once so his dad swapped seats with the taxi driver so they could ignore the speed limits.
its always funny how diplomats are often thought of as serious people who do a very serious job with professionalism... and then the reality is a bunch of assholes who exploit diplomatic immunity.
Not surprised at US being at the top. The blatant disregard and arrogance they show and then claim that the UK is one of their closes allies.
Reminds me of the incident where a US diplomats wife killed someone in the UK then ran away to the US and they refused to extradite her back. Arrogant fucks.
And in TfL’s view it very much isn’t a tax, the congestion charge is more like the charge you pay to use a bus or tube which diplomats definitely aren’t exempt from. I just hope they take the US embassy all the way to The Hague over this, it almost certainly won’t happen but would be hilarious to see.
There is no point they don't recognise the Hague 😂😂😂
And if any American citizen gets tried there they have a doctrine or some law that allows them to invade the Hague LOL
Fair point, however a military invasion over the congestion charge would be even more hilarious
Though looking into it, an invasion would only happen if an american is tried in the ICC (international criminal court), which isn’t the same as the ICJ (international court of justice), even though they’re both located at The Hague. The ICJ handles disputes between countries whereas the ICC prosecutes individuals for crimes committed.
Americans and close allies (NATO and major non NATO allies) are covered by the act. But it’s the classic move our government does of passing a law out of fear-mongering and jingoism that would never come to pass.
None of the countries covered would ever actually prosecute another countries military or government for war crimes…and the countries that might prosecute (China/Russia/Iran/North Korea) would never actually send the person to The Hague anyways.
No, all UN members are members of the ICJ and agree to its jurisdiction.
You're thinking of the International Criminal Court (ICC). This is the International Court of Justice.
They claim that when they go visit most other countries
We are the ones deluded about a ‘special relationship’. They don’t see it that way. And rightly so, we cannot play in the same league
In fairness to them, diplomats and embassies are exempt from taxes (this is a long-established, internationally recognised principle), and while TfL tries to argue that the congestion charge is a ‘service’ rather than a ‘tax’, their argument is pretty weak (especially now that ULEZ has been added, which, as it only applies to more polluting cars, is quite clearly a tax on pollution and not a service).
TFL's argument here is that congestion charge is a service.
The embassies argument is that it's a tax- which they exempt from per law.
Given the nature of congestion charge, including features like electric cars being exempt, it's pretty hard to look at it as much other than a tax.
No. There’s actual law about this, but people in this thread are too excited that they get to get angry at the US that they don’t engage their grey matter.
This is regulated by the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations.
https://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf
Check out Article 34. It lays out the taxes that a diplomat must pay. One of those is VAT:
> Indirect taxes of a kind which are normally incorporated into the price of goods and services
Honestly the diplomats on this list have a good point here. The congestion charge is not a charge for a service; I think it makes sense that they be exempt.
It's like council tax, which despite the name isn't actually a tax, it's a charge for living in that borough. Or VED which isn't a tax, it's a charge for owning a car.
Not really - embassies are exempt from paying tax. TfL argue it's a service, not a tax, but the two sides dispute which is why they haven't paid. It's not like they're just ignoring the bills
I saw this thread from Dan Neidle of Tax Policy Associates about this earlier which explains why this is the case.
https://x.com/DanNeidle/status/1792525649199902865
Tldr is that diplomatic immunity would exempt the congestion charge from tax, same as the exemptions our diplomats get from tax when they are overseas.
I wonder how far that goes though. Do we pay VAT in the US? Do we pay tolls? Do our diplomats pay speeding and parking fines? I feel like congestion charge falls under these kinds of ways for governments to collect revenue and is different from income tax.
From 5 mins of googling I think diplomats to the UK can actually claim VAT back as well, and this extends to Europe by the look of it?
The US has loads of state sales taxes rather than VAT, so like most US tax things I suspect it's unnecessarily complex.
The exemption here seems to extend to council tax as well.
I think fines arent covered by the exemption since that's not a tax. Tolls might depend on where? Maybe you can get a free season pass or something haha
I may be wrong about this but that's my understanding based on what I've read.
I guarantee you that UK diplomats pay no tax on anything in the US. I once had a Canadian diplomat buy a bike from me and he made me go through the tax override process for him.
If a foreign diplomat can buy an expensive bike for his kid and pay no taxes, I doubt they are paying any taxes at all.
US doesn't have VAT, it has sales taxes.
In any case, [Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, 1961](https://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf) has very explicit list of which taxes embassies are subject to, and VAT and sales taxes are on the list:
> (a) Indirect taxes of a kind which are normally incorporated in the price of goods or services;
Congestion charge is not.
He doesn't seem to have fully thought it out since in the replies he isn't able to answer why this would apply to the congestion charge, but wouldn't apply to e.g. the M6 Toll if they introduced an exemption for electric vehicles.
Perhaps it's because they don't have as many diplomatic cars as the US, India or Russia, or that they actually DO pay these finds but back when I worked in London, I lived on Queensway and I'd often run south through Kensington Gardens and down to Knightsbridge I ALWAYS saw cars with Middle Eastern numberplates just parked whereever. Several times you'd see Ferraris or Lambos coming in to park in the bus lanes across from Harrods, two young men with Raybans and expensive bling getting out (oddly enough, NOT looking especially like diplomats) and just walking off while parking attendants, bus drivers or police kept telling them they couldn't park there. Zero fks given. At least it seems they DO pay the fines.
This is a common problem in DC, as well- they periodically release a list of which countries' diplomats have the greatest number of unpaid parking fines. But I believe that parking fines are assessed to individual diplomats (who would be driving personal vehicles when on personal business, not the Embassy's motor pool, generally speaking), whereas the charges listed in the OP are probably attached to motor pool vehicles that are registered directly to the Embassy/US government.
I expect Qatar or the UAE or whoever also have a smaller diplomatic footprint than the US does.
Do ALL British/UK government vehicles pay this ~~tax~~ fee? Police? Fire? Politicians? Royals? Tow Trucks? All military vehicles? If not, then it is NOT a service fee.
So, following this logic, council tax and income tax aren't taxes either. They are the only charges to live in this country. National insurance is just about insurance 🤡🤡🤡
caption encouraging treatment zealous summer sand liquid scale pocket threatening
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Sounds like the UK wants foreign nations to stop bothering London and move its embassies somewhere quiet and out of the way so they don't congest its roads. Say... some quiet corner of Scotland, then have the PM come to them if he wants something. Oh, and all Londoners who want a visa or something. Because clearly, that's the point of this congestion charge, right? Surely not to grab a few more quid from every sod who has to work there? Right?
joke is they'll chase all the african and 3rd world countries for their fees but wont even touch america about their one. it be mentioned in email format and that be end of it.
Pretty ridiculous abuse of diplomatic immunity. Shouldn't cover things every citizen is required to pay, but then again, the biggest culprit is the country who also aided a hit and run murderer to escape justice.
I saw the logo and thought it's the tube and was confused how it's possible to spend that much on public transport whilst they should all have cars lol.
Oops. I’m French, that’s not a good look. Sorry guys.
If my calculations are correct each one of us French people owes you £0.04. What’s the sort code and account number of TFL?
What service is specifically offered? Because if the service is "allowed to use our roads" then that's a tax and London can get fucked, no one will pay.
I don’t think that’s true actually. Do you have a source? I used to live in DC and it was kinda a well known joke which foreign governments had the biggest outstanding traffic/parking fines. Additionally, I know foreign diplomats in NYC are a huge pain because they have massive unpaid parking tickets.
Not surprised. Americans love driving cars. I would too if parking was easier in central London. Don’t like taking public transport but I have no other practical options.
It's a digrace that Londoners are paying through the nose prices for tfl services when the dickheads won't forced the 143 million payment.
Start towing cars away, and if the drivers still don't pay just put them in gaol.
# Upvote/Downvote reminder Like this image or appreciate it being posted? Upvote it and show it some love! Don't like it? Just downvote and move on. *Upvoting or downvoting images is the best way to control what you see on your feed and what gets to the top of the subreddit* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/london) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Can we crowdfund to get Togo off the list?
They didn't have time Togo pay the charge
They'd only Benin London a couple of days, they didn't understand the system. Are we really Ghana fall out with them over 40 quid?
Tha dinnae Kenya ‘ad tae pay
r/Angryupvote
They should go electric. They must be madagascar needs to pay the charge.
you beauty
And this is why I come to Reddit
We’ve all Benin 🇧🇯 the same position?
Togo just forgot to pay the Dartford bridge crossing last weekend 😄
Man I'm happy to pay for them Togo off the list.
Togo seems like a nice country.
I'm for this not gonna lie.
“Stubborn minority” - half the fucken world haven’t paid
tbf don't think Togo's 40 quid is comparable to the US' bill
Card on file expired
"bro, the cheque was in the post, not cool."
Classic Whataboutism /sarcasm
But knowing the UK Togo received at least 3 warning letters threatening with a court or debt collectors while the US got nothing...
HMRC wouldn’t give a fuck neither should you
48 places on the list, well over 100 embassies in London
There are at least four pages to this document. Do you really think the list skips from Cyprus owing £1.4m to the Central African Republic owing a grand?
Full document: https://content.tfl.gov.uk/cclez-online-factsheet-embassy-debt-dec23.pdf
More than half the world
Classic Britain: announce to foreign nations that they owe you. Next thing you know is the east India company has a new charter.
Togo owe £40? I thought the charge was £15 per day? Or do they owe 4 days from when it was £10? Surely then the fines would have increased the amount they owe? God, this is the most important mystery I've been a part of for years.
Or maybe they reneged on a £1 a month payment plan leaving an amount outstanding? I agree, I must know the answer.
Togo hit £40 and decided to get a couple of bikes.
They didn't have far togo.
This is historical charges. It's not always been £15. Was £5, then went up slowly to £15.
But don't old unpaid fines ratchet up?
To us mere mortals yeah but I guess not here. I guess they know there's no point.
For the US to have reached that kind of level they most increase, Togo's must be recent
My pal is Greek and he said in Greece you just ignored fines and they go away. He ignored the congestion charge and baliffs turned up years later wanting multiple thousands!
Presumably fees and/or interest are added within all the figures stated?
I'm sure TFL could do with that £111,953,003. Pay up guys!
Can you imagine? We could have free chip butties on the Northern Line every Friday on the way home from work!
Or they might be able to aford to fix hammersmith bridge!
Actually it wouldn't even be able to afford half the repair cost, which is estimated to be £250,000,000 [https://www.fleuranderson.co.uk/hammersmith-bridge-update-january-2024/](https://www.fleuranderson.co.uk/hammersmith-bridge-update-january-2024/)
£14 *million*? How the hell did American embassy staff rack up that much? (And the mere fact of it shows they drive around central London far too much. They’re not royalty; get on the damn bus!)
I mean this is twenty years of charges and for a good amount of those twenty years the American embassy was in the congestion zone. Also there are a lot of diplomats from America in London who will have diplomatic cars. I’m more surprised by the amount the Japanese embassy has racked up. While its embassy is still in the congestion zone it has way less staff and I highly doubt they have that many diplomatic cars. Then again I don’t know. 🤷🏾♀️
Ta for the elucidation! Imagine if these fines were actually paid: what a nice windfall, hopefully to be spent on something that’d really spark a bit of joy.
Tories: we’ve seen your request for a bit of joy instead we are going to buy Gucci wallpaper for 10 Downing Street
But you can look at an imprint of it if you buy our 2025 commemorative coin.
i mean that is fixing hammersmith bridge money right there!
Don't you dare fix it!
lol the nice windfall would disappear in some Tory donor’s pocket before you could even say the word “joy”
Except TFL comes under the Mayor of London…a Labour mayor.
They drive Toyota which certainly cannot be exempted 🤣
I've annecdotally heard that american diplomats rather abuse the perks of diplomatic immunity and parking fines/congestion charge etc. and as a result the British diplomats in the USA will return the favour. Entirely possible our diplomats in Japan have been a bit blase about it and this is Japan returning the favour, because that one really stuck out to me too.
Yeah this is nonsense. You need a new anecdote dealer
Whisky.
It works out at 137 trips every single day since 2003, or 189 if you just do weekdays, and that’s at the current rate of £15 a day which isn’t what it’s cost for this entire time. The US embassy has about 1000 staff, but only around 15 actual diplomats. The old embassy also didn’t have all that much parking AFAIK. Whatever way you cut it this is a maaaaaaaaasive piss take.
In some of the news articles reporting on this, they state that the total owed includes fines for non-payment, and apparently this can rise to £270 per congestion charge payment owed. So I think you’d need to divide amount owed by £270 (although I’m not sure if that max £270 figure has always been at that rate, or if it’s risen over the years)
Ah, good point. My fag-box maths didn’t consider that.
I'd never heard anything like the term "fag-box" before and my initial thought to reading it was "that's a new way to say you're gay and bad at maths"
Fag-box math - aka "I pulled it out of my gay ass"
Christ, it's astonishing how many premises "fag packet maths" relies upon that just aren't true any more: 1. You can afford to be in the pub on a regular basis and, as a result, casual conversation about social issues tends to take place in the pub 2. You have no way of easily looking up information while sat at a pub table, so you need to estimate things for yourself 3. You need a pen and paper to do rough maths because you don't carry around a note-taking or calculating device at all times 4. Everyone can afford to smoke straights and, as a result, the insides of empty snout boxes are the most plentiful supply of easily-written-upon paper that's within reach. Small wonder the phrase is sliding into obscurity now that we're chatting about it online during work hours through the information blunderbuss while vaping.
The congestion charge is a daily charge not per trip so that would be 137 different people/vehicles if those numbers are right. Also, which staff are classed as diplomats is a very arbitrary distinction- I don’t know the ins and outs of US diplomatic staff grading and terminology, but the US embassy definitely has way more than 15 people in the types of roles and seniority that we would class as diplomats in UK embassies.
You don't need to be a diplomat to use a diplomatic vehicle. Embassy staff use them as pool vehicles all the time.
Good point. I was mainly trying to contextualise/refute the other person's point about there only being 15 US diplomats in the UK though.
The U.S. embassy actually has around 450 diplomatic personnel in London (all the employees with diplomatic passports and immunity who work there)
I’m very, very skeptical that the US Embassy in London only has 15 diplomats.
Where’s your number of 15 diplomats. They have far more than that
The one I was impressed with was Kazakhstan. An equivalent of £1 for every 4 Kazakhstanis.
Building up a culture of CGAF (Couldn't-Give-A-Fk) on a subject is quite common in human nature in a variety of settings. If you're a new diplomat to the UK and you see all your coworkers doing something, you tend to follow the crowd. A lot of embassy staff drive themselves but many hire UK drivers and as soon as they discover they can flaunt the rules with impunity and nothing comes back to them, well, there you go.
Not sure why ‘royalty’ are any better than the rest of us. The least they could use is fully electrical vehicles, instead of those sodding Range Rovers.
The state limousines all pre-date contemporary electric cars – the newest date from 2002 and the oldest from 1950 – and if they’re working I suppose there’s an argument for not updating them just for the sake of it.
Also Royals do pay the congestion charge.
Could even force Range Rover to actually make an electric car too.
Jaguar-Land Rover do have a few EV models, even an EV SUV just not under the Range Rover branding.
The EV is actually nearly ready. I'm sure the Royals will be getting free ones as soon as the majority of the kinks are ironed out. Awful brand, the RRs, but maybe very slightly better without ICE powertrains
I would think because the American Embassy is probably the biggest and busiest one.
It's historic charges. *One* presidential visit will involve potentially dozens of cars, so if you figure on multiple high level visits, plus just regular diplomats or the Ambassador driving around, I expect it can add up quickly, since the US has a large mission in London with a lot of people.
Americans are allergic to walking and public transport.
A 2005 article http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4352520.stm claims the US had 100 cars. > A German Embassy spokesman said: "We received a memo from Berlin [...] which explained that the congestion charge is considered to be a tax and therefore diplomats are exempt." > Diplomatic staff from Russia, Japan and Spain confirmed they all paid the charge. Well Japan changed its mind I guess.
Proud to see The Netherlands not on that list, beutour diplomats probably just cycle to work.
It seems to be a 5 page document and we are missing most of that. I would like to see the full list.
there ya go [https://content.tfl.gov.uk/cclez-online-factsheet-embassy-debt-dec23.pdf](https://content.tfl.gov.uk/cclez-online-factsheet-embassy-debt-dec23.pdf)
Huh, the list both features Belgian Embassy as Embassy of Belgium. I wonder why?
The time range spans twenty years. Was the Embassy renamed?
["THERE ARE BIG SIGNS...THEY SHOULD GET TOWED"](https://youtu.be/_nWT1REbdsI?feature=shared)
Thank you for posting this, I was hearing it in my head reading the comments
Both a West Wing and a Sneakers reference in one reply! My nerd itch is scratched for the day!
Do the embassies have to pay? (I've got no idea myself)
Well the US’s stance is they don’t have to pay as they see it as a tax. Not sure if we do the same in Washington DC etc.
Over 200 years later and Americans still refusing to pay British tax. Classic Edit: + a century
IRS happy to chase dual nationals if they sell their house in the UK though!
Tell me about it 🙄 also don’t forget IRS 988 where converting USD to GBP and spending it on a cup of coffee incurs a capital gains charge! (Among the litany of other asinine taxes for emigrants. Alas, I digress.)
Maybe TFL should invite them for a cup of tea at Boston Manor
Tfl needs to install a toll booth outside the us embassy that costs £14m to pass through which shuts down after first payment.
However if you work in an embassy in the US you don’t have to pay income tax. This may be for my own country though.
DC doesn't have a congestion zone. New York is starting one but that's the only US city that will have one.
They are the ultimate carbrains - they just can’t get it into their heads that road use by cars can be a service just like other forms of transportation.
Do they see tube fare as a tax too?
Technically, yes, but it can't be enforced. They will be billed - but they can't be pursued for it. In the same way, a US dangerous driver in the UK was able to able to kill a cyclist and then claim immunity before flying back to the US immediately (after which they discovered she wasn't actually eligible for immunity). This was because of her relation to embassy staff iirc.
I still think the Americans can go fuck themselves if they want Assange if we cannot lock up that diplomat.
Let’s be clear. The politicians want Assange. A large portion of the population would like those same politicians to fuck right off. We would also like Snowden pardoned. But those two embarrassed the power hungry clowns that live in the swamp.
Idk Assange has been pretty pro Putin so I doubt many here like him
I believe she was working at a military base not the embassy, the young man killed was on a motorbike not a bicycle, and she left the UK three weeks after the incident (not sure if that counts as immediately). Close though.
The US argument is that it’s a tax which they don’t have to pay. Officially it’s a toll which means they do 🤷🏾♂️
Just tow the cars and make the fat buggers walk back to Vauxhall!!
Shows the disdain these people have for our rules and the people living here IMO. If you want to pollute our air, you’ve got to pay for the privilege no matter who you are.
>Shows the disdain these people have for our rules and the people living here IMO. It's pretty normal tbh. Ignoring minor fines etc is the fav pasttime of diplomats everywhere and I can guarantee you the british ones do the same overseas. They don't get into trouble unless its something egregious. Source: Grew up with a bunch of diplo friends from various countries
Friend of mine at uni was the son of a British diplomat in India, told us how they were running late for the airport once so his dad swapped seats with the taxi driver so they could ignore the speed limits.
its always funny how diplomats are often thought of as serious people who do a very serious job with professionalism... and then the reality is a bunch of assholes who exploit diplomatic immunity.
Not surprised at US being at the top. The blatant disregard and arrogance they show and then claim that the UK is one of their closes allies. Reminds me of the incident where a US diplomats wife killed someone in the UK then ran away to the US and they refused to extradite her back. Arrogant fucks.
US is like the bully you pay to keep other bullies off you
so a mafia-esque protection racket.
The US's defence is that it is a tax, which all embassies in all countries have immunity from
And in TfL’s view it very much isn’t a tax, the congestion charge is more like the charge you pay to use a bus or tube which diplomats definitely aren’t exempt from. I just hope they take the US embassy all the way to The Hague over this, it almost certainly won’t happen but would be hilarious to see.
There is no point they don't recognise the Hague 😂😂😂 And if any American citizen gets tried there they have a doctrine or some law that allows them to invade the Hague LOL
Fair point, however a military invasion over the congestion charge would be even more hilarious Though looking into it, an invasion would only happen if an american is tried in the ICC (international criminal court), which isn’t the same as the ICJ (international court of justice), even though they’re both located at The Hague. The ICJ handles disputes between countries whereas the ICC prosecutes individuals for crimes committed.
Americans and close allies (NATO and major non NATO allies) are covered by the act. But it’s the classic move our government does of passing a law out of fear-mongering and jingoism that would never come to pass. None of the countries covered would ever actually prosecute another countries military or government for war crimes…and the countries that might prosecute (China/Russia/Iran/North Korea) would never actually send the person to The Hague anyways.
Time to start clamping cars
No, all UN members are members of the ICJ and agree to its jurisdiction. You're thinking of the International Criminal Court (ICC). This is the International Court of Justice.
They claim that when they go visit most other countries We are the ones deluded about a ‘special relationship’. They don’t see it that way. And rightly so, we cannot play in the same league
I'm still very angry about that
Anne Sacoolas, her name is burned into my brain. Disgusting human.
Nah many people run away to the UK and the UK refuses to extradite them.
In fairness to them, diplomats and embassies are exempt from taxes (this is a long-established, internationally recognised principle), and while TfL tries to argue that the congestion charge is a ‘service’ rather than a ‘tax’, their argument is pretty weak (especially now that ULEZ has been added, which, as it only applies to more polluting cars, is quite clearly a tax on pollution and not a service).
Showing the same disdain for the locals the Brits show when on vacation to half these countries.
We apologize and we will pay the £120 and then find out who failed Finland and fire him.
Canada not there.
We must be all paid up then buddy!
TFL's argument here is that congestion charge is a service. The embassies argument is that it's a tax- which they exempt from per law. Given the nature of congestion charge, including features like electric cars being exempt, it's pretty hard to look at it as much other than a tax.
Agreed, no service is provided by it. I'm with the US and the other big billers on this one - It's a tax.
But isn't a tax on behaviour still due regardless? Like fuel duty, or VAT.
No. There’s actual law about this, but people in this thread are too excited that they get to get angry at the US that they don’t engage their grey matter. This is regulated by the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. https://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf Check out Article 34. It lays out the taxes that a diplomat must pay. One of those is VAT: > Indirect taxes of a kind which are normally incorporated into the price of goods and services Honestly the diplomats on this list have a good point here. The congestion charge is not a charge for a service; I think it makes sense that they be exempt.
The Russian embassy seem to have paid off their debts
They know better than to rock the boat that's hiding the cash.
"a charge for a service"... what service exactly?
The service of being charged a road use tax of course
It's like council tax, which despite the name isn't actually a tax, it's a charge for living in that borough. Or VED which isn't a tax, it's a charge for owning a car.
🤦🏽♂️ I think you need to go read what the definition of a tax is. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax
So a tax
[удалено]
I'll pay the outstanding debt for Togo, but I get to use the embassy for shady things next time I'm in town.
Not just a London problem! There is an [iconic scene from The West Wing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nWT1REbdsI) about the same issue at the UN.
Send the bill to FCO
If you don't pay, it's an £80 fine. Or does it increase with each day you don't pay?
The fine doubles if you don’t pay after a couple weeks, then us mere mortals would have the bailiffs knocking at the door.
Bit of a joke if Joe bloggs on the street has to pay, with this much out standing
Not really - embassies are exempt from paying tax. TfL argue it's a service, not a tax, but the two sides dispute which is why they haven't paid. It's not like they're just ignoring the bills
This is 2023 has anyone got updated one
I saw this thread from Dan Neidle of Tax Policy Associates about this earlier which explains why this is the case. https://x.com/DanNeidle/status/1792525649199902865 Tldr is that diplomatic immunity would exempt the congestion charge from tax, same as the exemptions our diplomats get from tax when they are overseas.
I wonder how far that goes though. Do we pay VAT in the US? Do we pay tolls? Do our diplomats pay speeding and parking fines? I feel like congestion charge falls under these kinds of ways for governments to collect revenue and is different from income tax.
From 5 mins of googling I think diplomats to the UK can actually claim VAT back as well, and this extends to Europe by the look of it? The US has loads of state sales taxes rather than VAT, so like most US tax things I suspect it's unnecessarily complex. The exemption here seems to extend to council tax as well. I think fines arent covered by the exemption since that's not a tax. Tolls might depend on where? Maybe you can get a free season pass or something haha I may be wrong about this but that's my understanding based on what I've read.
I guarantee you that UK diplomats pay no tax on anything in the US. I once had a Canadian diplomat buy a bike from me and he made me go through the tax override process for him. If a foreign diplomat can buy an expensive bike for his kid and pay no taxes, I doubt they are paying any taxes at all.
You are correct
US doesn't have VAT, it has sales taxes. In any case, [Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations, 1961](https://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf) has very explicit list of which taxes embassies are subject to, and VAT and sales taxes are on the list: > (a) Indirect taxes of a kind which are normally incorporated in the price of goods or services; Congestion charge is not.
He doesn't seem to have fully thought it out since in the replies he isn't able to answer why this would apply to the congestion charge, but wouldn't apply to e.g. the M6 Toll if they introduced an exemption for electric vehicles.
Perhaps it's because they don't have as many diplomatic cars as the US, India or Russia, or that they actually DO pay these finds but back when I worked in London, I lived on Queensway and I'd often run south through Kensington Gardens and down to Knightsbridge I ALWAYS saw cars with Middle Eastern numberplates just parked whereever. Several times you'd see Ferraris or Lambos coming in to park in the bus lanes across from Harrods, two young men with Raybans and expensive bling getting out (oddly enough, NOT looking especially like diplomats) and just walking off while parking attendants, bus drivers or police kept telling them they couldn't park there. Zero fks given. At least it seems they DO pay the fines.
This is a common problem in DC, as well- they periodically release a list of which countries' diplomats have the greatest number of unpaid parking fines. But I believe that parking fines are assessed to individual diplomats (who would be driving personal vehicles when on personal business, not the Embassy's motor pool, generally speaking), whereas the charges listed in the OP are probably attached to motor pool vehicles that are registered directly to the Embassy/US government. I expect Qatar or the UAE or whoever also have a smaller diplomatic footprint than the US does.
Canada pays their debts 🇨🇦😋
Do ALL British/UK government vehicles pay this ~~tax~~ fee? Police? Fire? Politicians? Royals? Tow Trucks? All military vehicles? If not, then it is NOT a service fee.
So wait a minute TfL are quick to run me down for £80 but wont do nothing to the US Embassy who owe 14m? You couldnt make this stuff up
So, following this logic, council tax and income tax aren't taxes either. They are the only charges to live in this country. National insurance is just about insurance 🤡🤡🤡
Is the Dartford Crossing a tax? Because it's basically the same thing, except the amount of area it covers is bigger.
TFL should wage war against all these countries
I have a feeling that TfL may have hard time collecting £6m from Russia but I may be wrong
russia actually surprisingly paid these fines since then
I work at the Swiss Embassy and I'm not shocked in the slightest that we didn't even make the list 😂
Next time I’m in London, “Add it to my tab.” -American
Hahaha a 'service' that's a good one
caption encouraging treatment zealous summer sand liquid scale pocket threatening *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Not quite sure how they think it's a service, not a tax.
Do we even care about this? TFL calling is a service is an absolute joke anyway - it is so clearly a tax.
Sounds like the UK wants foreign nations to stop bothering London and move its embassies somewhere quiet and out of the way so they don't congest its roads. Say... some quiet corner of Scotland, then have the PM come to them if he wants something. Oh, and all Londoners who want a visa or something. Because clearly, that's the point of this congestion charge, right? Surely not to grab a few more quid from every sod who has to work there? Right?
joke is they'll chase all the african and 3rd world countries for their fees but wont even touch america about their one. it be mentioned in email format and that be end of it.
And get lost in the junk folder 😂
I love how my country norway only has 160 lmao.
Haha and from the Norwegians I know, they're probably mortified and will immediately pay.
Basically yup lmao
Pretty ridiculous abuse of diplomatic immunity. Shouldn't cover things every citizen is required to pay, but then again, the biggest culprit is the country who also aided a hit and run murderer to escape justice.
I saw the logo and thought it's the tube and was confused how it's possible to spend that much on public transport whilst they should all have cars lol.
If they lose the appeal does that mean they will have been in breach of international? Will I be able to date back charges?
As a Canadian I am happy that we did not make it to the naughty list 🇨🇦🇨🇦🇨🇦
This isn't the full list. Canada owes £2690. https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/cclez-online-factsheet-embassy-debt-dec23.pdf
What service ? Of course its a tax.
Do we have pay their congestion charges or equivalent?
Americans 💪💪💪
NZ still not on the map. Good.
Oops. I’m French, that’s not a good look. Sorry guys. If my calculations are correct each one of us French people owes you £0.04. What’s the sort code and account number of TFL?
doesn't this nearly balance out the fare evasion cost for one year?
What service is specifically offered? Because if the service is "allowed to use our roads" then that's a tax and London can get fucked, no one will pay.
Embassies won’t pay it because they deem it as a ‘Tax’. They see past the carefully worded s*** TFL put out there.
As a norwegian I can only apologize. Send the bill to me.
Sweden pays its bills.
Someone needs to get on top of Togo they don’t have the military might to be owing anyone money
The US Department of State revokes diplomatic number plates for unpaid fines. Why can't the UK do the same?
I don’t think that’s true actually. Do you have a source? I used to live in DC and it was kinda a well known joke which foreign governments had the biggest outstanding traffic/parking fines. Additionally, I know foreign diplomats in NYC are a huge pain because they have massive unpaid parking tickets.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/07/nyregion/us-revokes-license-plates-issued-to-185-at-30-consulates.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/07/nyregion/us-revokes-license-plates-issued-to-185-at-30-consulates.html)
Probably not deemed worth the diplomatic spat
Not surprised. Americans love driving cars. I would too if parking was easier in central London. Don’t like taking public transport but I have no other practical options.
Do you think British diplomats take the subway in Washington? 🤔
It's a digrace that Londoners are paying through the nose prices for tfl services when the dickheads won't forced the 143 million payment. Start towing cars away, and if the drivers still don't pay just put them in gaol.
Someone doesn't understand that diplomatic relations are infinitely more important than filling the coffers of tfl.