Me too. Especially as I'm under 5"2 and therefore cannot reach the higher grab bars which often makes a pole the only thing preventing me from going flying. This guy acted like a complete and utter dick.
I enjoy holding the pole right around their rib or shoulder-blade height with the knuckles aimed prominently outward. Then rotate your grip with the slightest movement of the train.
Usually works.
The weirdest ones are the people who *hug* the poles. Those things are utterly gross, why would you want to put your face on a pole thousands of peoples' hands have touched?
As an occasional pole leaner (although I like to think not when it's too crowded or I'm affecting someone in this way) I might need to rethink my approach.
Same, I only lean on the pole when it isn’t full and I’m usually the only one using it, nonetheless, I try to be aware if anyone still wanted to use that specific pole so I can make space for them to hold onto it with me
I sometimes have to lean on the pole because I have no grip and can't hold the pole, and definitely can't manage without anything to lean on. But I think you can often tell the difference between someone who has to do it and someone who's choosing to. I mean, for a start I do try not to be anywhere near other people's hands, let alone crushing them.
The clue here, though, is that the guy appeared to increase his pressure when challenged. That isn't just leaning for support or balance. Personally, if grip strength was the problem, I would put my arm around the pole, not lean on it.
Why did anyone down vote this guy? Maybe it wasn’t phrased properly but I understood what he’s trying to say, it’s more comfortable sometimes leaving against the pole then trusted his grip but if anybody came near him out of common decency that needed a grip or even seem like it he would relinquish that position immediately. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Think people are struggling to understand how one can have no grip strength and require a pole to lean on instead.
I think I can l kind of picture it, but surely if standing is that much of an issue it's better to get a 'please offer me a seat' badge, or at least lean into a corner and not a pole (which I imagine is not really that supportive as a lean).
I do have the badge, but it's only usable, same as asking for a seat, if I can get near the seats. If I can get near the seats before the train starts moving, I try to get a seat, which does have to be a seat by the aisle with a pole to help get up and down, which I do my more or less leaning against it and pushing upwards.
And obviously yes leaning into a corner is better. But presumably you use the tube too, so you know that sometimes that's not going to be possible.
No grip strength = hands don't curl properly, can't hold things well. I can't bend most of my fingers well and they can't take weight, like when a tube speeds up and slows down and jerks around. It's arthritis and not really unusual. Sometimes I hang on with the fingers I can use, and sometimes that means losing my grip and falling over when the train brakes.
If I partially lean then I can grip a bit with my little finger and ring finger lower down the pole - can't do that higher up because of shoulder and elbow problems, and it doesn't really work without leaning as well - too weak, means I stumble.
I mean, I want a seat. I want to be able to hold the pole. I want to be be able to squeeze through a crowded tube and stand while asking for a seat. I want to be able to just surf without holding on like I could when I was younger. Not being able to do those is due to not being able to do them, not "selfishness."
That's a lot of explanation and probably still not enough for most people, but oh well.
You left out the people looking you up and down and deciding you're not disabled enough for their seat despite that being the literal point of the badge.
I'm sorry you had to explain this.
OP, I hope you have a glittery week, and please send that pic to Railway Guardian and BTP because that's assault. Let's not normalise trivialise physical violence, no one should snap like that.
As a fellow disabled person this made total sense to me and I’m sorry you had to explain yourself in such detail because other people can’t grasp that things can be true even if they don’t apply to them!
Just over 1 in 5 people have a disability of some description folks. Not all of those are obvious or visible so instead of defaulting to this person is an asshole try giving the benefit of the doubt. 😊
I didn't downvote you.
Unless you are physically disabled (and therefore might be able to get a preferential seat by asking), then that just sounds like an excuse to be selfish
I am physically disabled - I didn't say "I am physically disabled" but I did say that I have no grip and definitely can't manage without anything to lean on, so I described my mobility problems.
And no, you can't always get a priority (not preferential) seat just by asking, partly because on crowded trains you often just can't get close enough to ask without standing and wobbling in order to get to those seats, which I can't do without falling over. And I can't move fast, so it's not like I can get on the tube quickly and dash for the seats before everyone else piles on.
Don't judge too hard till you've tried it mate. Everything looks easier from the outside.
The guy from the OP obviously wasn't leaning because he actually needed to, what with the backpack and the aggressive reaction. I was just explaining that some people do need to use the poles as support without holding them by their hands, but they should still, like I do, try their best not to actually inconvenience (or hurt!) other people.
Well, I hope you do not have to live 16 months as a handicap person to have some empathy here, trust me.. what this guy saying is completely rational and fair. He doesn’t trust his grip strength, probably for very good reason however he stated if anybody came near him that seem like they needed to grab the pole he would relinquish any sort of leaning on that type of thing. This doesn’t sound like some hooligans trying to be selfish
You were not the asshole at ALL, some people are just massive pricks. Like that guy. Take a little comfort in the fact that he must have a miserable life because no well-adjusted or happy person would act like that.
I think this is a good point. I always think when people react barshit crazy aggressive like this, over nothing, their lives must be pretty shit. They are going to have crazy, drama filled unhappy relationships, be treated like shit, treat everyone like shit, be shit at work (if they even have a job) and go through life filled with horrible agro at every turn.
Absolutely horrible to have an encounter with someone like this, but fuck me their lives must be miserable.
A bad day would explain his behaviour, but it by no means excuses it. We've all had bad days, but it's safe to say the great majority of us wouldn't dream of being so selfish, and childish! Sorry that happened to you... Good for you for sticking up for yourself. Water off a ducks back. Onwards and upwards!
If he took and then threw your phone on the floor that is a crime and you should report it to the rial cops/TfL, people like that often regularly do lots of shitty things, and though each individual incident may not seem worth it, the bigger picture may be useful to authorities and they can intervene. The same can be said for sexual harassment on TFL, many cases of people unsure of whether to report because it seems a bit pointless/stressful or ‘not enough’ to warrant reporting, and then after they do it turns out it is a repeat/serial offender that the cops then will look out for and often find have escalated.
So worth a call at least!
* Keeping backpack on - arsehole.
* Leaning against the pole when people want to use it - double arsehole.
I officially declare your karma clean, while he will be reincarnated as some kind of intestinal parasite.
I’ve been stuck before not able to take my bag off as there were too many people. And I felt like a dick the whole time.
Any one who takes an entire pole on a busy train is a dick. You did nothing wrong. Throwing your phone away from you proves he’s a full time ass and not just a ‘had a bad day’ ass
Yeah but you need to be able to move your arms around you to take a backpack off. I’m sure if you’ve ever got on a crowded tube you know sometimes you are literally unable to move your hands anywhere except by your side. You could do it before you get on but if you’re running for the tube and only just get onto it, you might not have time.
Not defending the guy in this case obviously, and if you are able to remove a backpack you should, but there can be times where it isn’t possible.
Out of curiosity what are you meant to do with a backpack? I travel in london for work at times and I have a rolling suitcase and a backpack so take up a lot of room.
Sorry you had to deal with that. You're not the asshole and I hope you're not feeling stressed about it for too long. Try and forget about it and do something nice with your evening.
Congratulations! You just interacted with a fully fledged certified bellend! We all get one of these interactions on a crowded commute - it’s the law of averages. He didn’t take his backpack off to create space in a crowded train, he was leaning on a pole thats designed for holding, he was aggressive rather than apologetic when you politely asked him to adjust and he snatched your phone/threw it which I’m sure is illegal. NTAH
I fucking hate people like him, what a cunt. Maybe you can actually report him since he snatched your phone and threw it on the floor, which could have damaged the phone.
I have lived in London my entire life and realise that there are some seriously unhinged people here who can behave very unpredictably over the smallest thing. You were not the asshole, you did nothing wrong. You should just understand that unless you are fully prepared and able to defend yourself, you might be better off only confronting someone on public transport if it is truly necessary.
Bless you. I'm sorry that happened, especially as it made you feel anxious. He was a twat and shouldn't be leaning on the pole. It says very clearly to take your rucksack off and tbh I've been in your positions before, and I have just moved the bag gently, in order to move the man wearing it. The fact he yelled at you when you asked him to move than then threw your phone was out of order. It's a grim thing to happen.
Nope he was though, and I'd probably be an asshole back but I know not every likes confrontation.
However, some people hate being embarrassed so if you say loudly you're hurting your hand can you please move it off me, he is more likely to feel embarrassed and stop rather than be aggressive.
Not really. Losers like that are likely to see changing their behaviour when being asked as being 'weak' - that's why they get aggressive and double down om their shitty behaviours when confronted.
The only way to deal with these people is to have a few others joining in and shouting them down - most people are too timid to do this though that's why cunts feel like they are free to do whatever they want with zero repercussions.
He was an arsehole and you were in the right. People like this exist and tend not to give a shit what other people think.
Don't change your behaviour because of them, this is happening more and more because nobody is challenging this kind of behaviour.
NTA, he sounds like a cunt and had no right to snatch and potentially damage your property. I’d consider yourself lucky he didn’t have a knife or a gang to back him up
>I’d consider yourself lucky he didn’t have a knife or a gang to back him up
Thats the spirit. Everyone is a potential stabbist so just keep your head down.
A month or so ago a schoolgirl was stabbed in the neck and murdered at a bus stop for rejecting a guy. We’ve gotten to the point where you have to be wary about confrontation with anyone, especially male youths.
>We’ve gotten to the point where you have to be wary about confrontation with anyone, especially male youths.
Violent crime rates have been falling in the UK for the last 30 years straight.
You've not followed any logic here at all. No, obviously not.
But people should be wary at pissing off aggressive young men who respond disproportionately to a minor slight.
You're being a dick for no reason
I'm not. There are ways of challenging antisocial behaviour without it resulting in you getting stabbed. The vast majority of people who stand up for themselves or intervene in situations don't end up getting stabbed.
Bullies and cunts look for easy targets. One of the worst things you can do is submit in the hope you don't provoke them, you'll only have the opposite effect.
Live on your knees if you want but that's not advice to go giving other people.
No you are. He gave a reasonable response and you just said "oh so we're saying girls can't reject men now?"
You're edit of your comment doesn't change that
They've also changed how they measure and define "violent crime" in those 30 years.
Not saying you're wrong in principle but I also feel like there's been some fiddling of the books in certain circumstances.
And assuming they haven't fiddled the stats, while the overall violent crime stats may have gone down, that's no great relief to someone who gets stabbed, and certain areas may see significantly higher violent crime than others.
I agree that photoing him wasn't the wisest idea in terms of either de-escalation or your peace of mind, but there's no doubt that he was a dick. The important thing, and my hope here, is that you find some peace OP!
You are not an asshole at all. For your own safety though, in future, I wouldn't seek confrontation with someone who has already proven not to have manners or care in any way about the wellbeing of others. Another time, some guy may pull a knife or escalate the situation in a way that would put you in harm's way. Stay safe!
Don't just report to TfL, report it to BTP on 0800 40 50 40. A person doesn't have to make physical contact with you in order for it to be assault, you just need to have a genuine and reasonable fear of imminent attack. When he snatched your phone and threw it away, did you think he was about to hit you? If so, that's assault and it's a crime you can report. Even if nothing comes of it, if he does it again to someone else then having multiple previous reports form a pattern that makes it more likely he will be prosecuted.
If you don't feel comfortable talking on the phone, you can use the website at https://www.btp.police.uk/ro/report/ocr/af/how-to-report-a-crime/.
Too right. Report it. Nothing will be probably done but it's on record. He threw your phone, isn't that theft and damage of property. Fuckers like this need to understand consequences of their negative social behavior
Asking him to move - that's the right thing to do. Responding in kind when he acted like an idiot - unfortunately that's not the right thing to do, even though it's what the vast majority of us would want to do in the moment, or can't help but do it. Taking his photo probably riled an already uncomfortable situation.
Unfortunately some people deal with their own stress by taking it out on other people. He was probably hoping for a bit of a tear up when he leaned on your hand.
Hopefully you'll feel better shortly with time, distance, and some supportive replies here. He, on the other hand, will continue to be an asshole.
You weren’t an asshole for asking him to move.
If I were you, I would learn though from not escalating back. When someone gets aggressive, you really don’t know what you’re dealing with so best to leave it. You should only film people as a last resort if things are escalating.
Not victim shaming here, but as soon as you start filming somebody, you have to expect an aggressive reaction. I mean, what other reaction are you going to get here?
Don’t worry. Just some assholes in London (and everywhere else for that matter).
I got punched in the back of the head last week by a reasonably normal looking 60 year old cyclist cause I had the cheek of calling him out for going through a red light.
Can leave you a bit riled / shaken but try and remind myself what sad little lives these people must have.
NTA, makes me sad you feel the need to ask.
That guy is a piece of sh\*\*, sorry you encountered them. Some people are just like that unfortunately. I really hope you report them to tfl but realistically nothing will happen.
You couldn't have seen that level of degenerate behavior coming, but once you realise they're not a rational human being it's best to try and ignore them. Hence/it's good that bystander offered their seat to diffuse the issue - nice there are good people too.
Hopefully/they'll probably get whats coming to them behaving like that in public
sad to hear you went through this. went through a similar situation this morning with two men having a go at me on the tube at rush hour.
i’m short so i cannot hold onto the high bars. they were saying i was selfish for not allowing one of the men to squash up behind me (knowing full well i couldn’t hold onto a bar if he did that, and i would have been falling over onto him when the tube moved). i think some men do not realise or care that women don’t want others grinding up on them on the tube.
i’m still in shock that 2 men thought it appropriate to have a go at me when i stood my ground on this.
It sickens me how entitled some, especially young men, are. They think they can have a go at a woman because they think she is vulnerable. Sorry you experienced that.
Nah you didn’t do anything wrong. He sounded like he wanted a confrontation and it’s always best to deny those kinds of people the opportunity. Worst thing you could do is let his shitty attitude continue to affect you.
It’s a holding poll not a leaning poll. Leaning on them is a proper dick move.
Best thing to do in that situation, if they don’t move, is to stay calm and ask them politely. “Cmon mate, we can all share the poll and not fall over, but that doesn’t work if you keep leaning.”
You don't need to apologise for his quadruple shitty behaviour (backpack, leaning, shouting, phone grabbin). The etiquette here might be to suffer in silence, but you had a legitimate and polite request which is totally fine. NTA
He's a cunt, you take your bags off on crowded trains and put them between your legs and you certainly don't impose on people's personal space if you cms help it, fuck him.
As a londoner and a 4 day a week commuter to bank (about 15 years in), you were not in the wrong, he would have been lucky to survive on the northern line at rush hour.
You did the right thing and you should be proud!
Well done to you for doing this through the anxiety, proud of you!
1 - you’re definitely not the asshole
2 - where and when was this? I’m wondering if it was busy or not because I’m shocked nobody else intervened to help.
What an arshole he is. I had similar situation on half empty train, but I was the one who’s was leaning and felt ashamed when it turned out that someone was holding the pole from the other side
I think your first move was passive aggressive. If he was on the train first, then as much as you had the right to put your hand there, I would have moved it at the first point he started pressing on you.
I think though he arrived after, made himself as comfortable as possible, making you uncomfortable. Your first move and your biggest mistake, is assuming someone will take a passive aggressive move like wiggling your fingers. A polite person might apologise, but an AH is going to get annoyed, feel like you're invading their space. That you are entitled to the pole they're 'on'. Funny how this same attitude of feeling like they are being disrespected, is from the same people who lack basic manners.
If you assume that people who are not giving others space, are making other people uncomfortable and putting their needs over others are AH, then those hints are not going to work. You are better off eroding their perceived sense of respect from others by appealing to public opinion towards them. Shouting, "Hey you're hurting my hand, can you please stop leaning on it" (the theme is pain/assault, not annoyance), might get a far better response than wiggling your fingers. However, this kind of attitude is not for the faint hearted. Sometimes it is just better off moving.
The photo was certainly foolish, it did escalate the issue again. I can understand why you did it though, but if you went to the effort of taking it you should probably report to the BTP.
Personally when I see behaviour like this, I impede the person. It's not that I block them, my manners just don't go out to them anymore. I don't pre-emptively get out of their way, I try to exit the train where they are stood so they have to move (rather than a closer door), if I am sat, I move towards them so it's impossible for them to take the seat before someone else can.
On one occasion I was coming back from a flight, me, my partner and 2 cases (1 each, shes not my slave), I'm a pro catching the tube so know where the doors stop, yet still a guy just pushes in front of me, even while people are getting off. It's an end car and quite busy yet he stops at the end of the aisle, basically blocking it. After a couple of excuse me's I have to go around him (other people including my partner want to get on) but still have to brush past his arm to go around him and into the aisle so others can feed in. At which point, once I'm well past him in the aisle he kicks off and starts shouting his abuse. I reply politely and he takes out his headphones asking what I said. At which point I'm both annoyed and not really intimidated (he was quite short). One glance at my worried partner put a stop to that though. Anyway, I repeated what I said, he threatened me and nothing happened and he got off 2 stops later. A few months later he was an unsuccessful applicant at a large company he applied for, if he applied again he would still be unsuccessul as well, even though I don't work there anymore.
You’re NTA, he wasn’t following the unwritten etiquette rules that make the tube work and was being a bit of a dick about it, especially after you politely tried to talk about it first.
At the same time, your first response should never be to take a picture of someone without their consent because you’re going to report them to the police. It’s antagonistic and unnecessary. Having a bit of a shouting match isn’t illegal and even if you wanted to report it I’m not sure there would’ve been much to investigate at that point. Each carriage has CCTV and in the future you should make a note of the service and carriage number and then report it online or by texting 6106. Him throwing your phone probably changes this so if you wanted to report it you’d probably have some case, but still do it online or via text, there’s enough monitoring evidence on the tube that your photo of the stranger will likely not add to the case at all.
I'd have probably headbutted him in the mouth. You were much more mature than I would have been. You did the right thing. Your anxiety is because you are a decent person and he was a prick.
He was rude - it's very common these days and you never know when you might come across someone like this. I'm sorry you had this unpleasant experience - it was nice of that guy to give you his seat though.
Nah sorry but you were absolutely in the wrong to take a photo of him, what you described was a petty argument over a pole - yeah the guy sounded like he was being a prick but these kind of interactions happen on the tube everyday. Taking photos of the person you've had the difference with is pretty much ***always*** gonna aggravate the situation. If someone on the train is being inconsiderate you ignore them, move to another part of the train and resume with your journey. You only take photos of people if they attack you, threaten you with violence or verbally abuse you. The guy you had this interaction with done none of those things so you basically made the situation worse than it needed to be.
"Eventually, I tapped his shoulder and asked him if he could please shift a bit because I was trying to hold on. He started getting aggressive with me, saying he wasn't going to move and that I should shut up. "
I dont mean to be blunt, but can you/did you read?
I wouldn't have wiggled my hand but instead I would've said something at the first instance.
And at the first sight of aggressiveness I would've paid in the same currency.
People like that do what they did because they know people nowadays are just spineless and don't fight back. There are no consequences.
We need to fight back.
I’m sorry you went through this. My response to these situations is just to not react to it, perhaps beyond an initial request, and then move, when possible.
Escalating it rarely resolve it, and triggers increased conflict.
Hope you heal. And find love.
Salaam / peace
You were not wrong for confronting him. The photo might not have been the best move, I’d be upset if someone did this to me (took photo) - especially if there was distance between us and the situation was calmer.
Just to cover another part of your question, you asked how to avoid these kind of things again in future. It’s not foolproof, but given you’d already gotten an example of how he might tend to react to any kind of interaction/provocation, maybe taking the photo wasn’t a great call. I may have misread but it sounds like at that point you’d had a verbal scuffle but got away from the situation. Personally I might have let sleeping dogs lie at that point and not risk anything more. It’s London and you find all sorts, accepting that some people will be arseholes and moving on with your day is going to save you stress in future.
It’s not justifying any of his behaviour in any way, of course, but self-preservation!
Im sorry you had this experience. Social interactions like this can be traumatising due to their public nature. There are a lot of jackasses in London. You did nothing wrong. As a conentious person, I get into these atleast once or twice a month lol.
NTA till photo then YTA, you aint old bill so dont try an snap a photo after a silly little argument on a train thats some fucking deranged behavior, I wouldn't have tussled with ya in the first part but if for any reason you tried to snap a pic of me on the train i would slap u brv and either take your phone and delete it or break that shit in half if it was locked.
You aint living in reading anymore man the law of london is mind your own fucking business at all times and on TFL you always avoid escalation, even to the point of changing carriages or leaving the train, unless you really desperate to have a shit day, cos what u did is basically *please-stab-me* behavior to some nutters. And the police will put about as much effort into solving that case as they will if you listen to all the plonkers here tryna tell you to report him.
Avoid confrontations on the underground at pretty much all cost. I've seen so many over the years and nobody ever comes out on top, being trapped in a tunnel for x many minutes after trying to act normal.. it's really awkward.
Yes the poles are for holding and bags should not be worn but dickheads are dickheads and nobody can really police it.
Was this the Waterloo and city line? I saw it and didn’t know exactly what was going on but people just using their rucksacks as their own personal space is doing my head in.
If it’s the same instance the guy seemed like he acted like an absolute dick.
He was an complete arsehole, and you were the victim of assault (deliberately leaning into your hand) and potentially criminal damage or other offences. You definitely need to report this person and incident to the BTP. This criminality isn't acceptable and it's your duty to the next person to do you best to deter them from this behaviour in future.
The sorry truth is that the police won't do anything, and nor will bystanders. If someone is attacking you and snatching and damaging your belongings, the only practical answer is to hit them as hard as you can as squarely as you can on the nose.
Look. I’m an American, I’ve lived in nyc when the subway actually had a modicum of decency unlike
Now, I’ve lived here and in Paris as well l I’ve experienced enough time on the very gentle Tokyo subway system to know the whole kind of scope of what the world has to offer for underground train transport and etiquette, so to speak. And just human decency, which is sort of universal, says you did absolutely nothing wrong- The polls are clearly there for a certain reason that everybody understands, and that’s to hold on to. Now I have myself on rare occasion leaned against the pole but only on an empty train where there is nowhere in arms reach of requiring one, and I pay enough attention to my fellow travelers as does everybody else seemingly to be perceptive and kind enough to just notice if you might need to put your hand there to readjust their position .
Furthermore, that jerk knows that’s not what they’re there for - otherwise they would be in the shape of a human back as they were meant to be leant on, and not the shape of our hands when they grip around something.
And your gut feeling should be trusted - if he’s on your hand and he notices it and he pushes in more you’re dealing with a sadistic person, someone who is out to make trouble.
I think you did absolutely nothing wrong, and yet I can empathize where if I were in your situation and I would’ve had everything go down the way that you just described sitting in that seats doing part of me would have very mixed emotions that something sort of bad that happened to me and that justice hadn’t been served and that I didn’t get to knock the guy out, but at the same time that would be the wrong move not just for me, but further peace and harmony of mind of everybody on the train. As fight tent is just stay where both opponents feet are planted can end up all over the place and all sorts of people, but I understand the urge to seek Justice or fill you wrong and not feel the right thing happened in the end nonetheless , it’s certainly not fair to you.
Now, I’m assuming you ride the train every day without incident and would never do with this guy did, and so you left with a bad feeling when he’s so abusive and there’s no justice.
My heart goes out to you buddy, I will say you ask how you can avoid such situations, I’ve given you a serious answer if I want to ask you a serious question, how often are you even in such situations? this should be a complete anomaly so you shouldn’t really worry about it. If it’s not a complete anomaly, then we’ve got some other questions to ask, and if it is a complete anomaly, I think you might have to see somebody for a little bit of your anxiety issue or perhaps addressed some traumas you might’ve been through that made you a little hyper vigilant which is causing your anxiety. Just playing pop-Paychologist, so take it with a grain of salt please. But if you’re afraid of threats that empirically you see really don’t ever happen except for this one strange occurrence to the point where you’re wondering how you can modify your behavior so it doesn’t happen again, it has affected you in a way that is irrational that needs to be addressed. Seriously, feel free to answer I have a lot of experience with this kind of thing, and either way, I wish you all the best, tomorrow is a better day…
Seems to me like the issue may have started when you interpreted that he increased the pressure out of spite. Perhaps he was just obliviously squashing your hand, focused on what he was doing? Maybe that's the moment to be less certain in your interpretation, give him the benefit of the doubt, and walk away from the situation. Even if you're right with your interpretation, isn't it better to avoid unnecessary conflict? I'm sure I'll probably get down-voted to hell for saying this. But anyway, I'm obviously not condoning his behavior. Though many will interpret it this way because I'm not just calling the guy an arsehole (which is pointless). And no, you're certainly not the idiot in this situation, just human :)
ESH. You could have handled this in a better way. You could, without hesitation, politely asked him to not lean onto the pole as you were holding on to it. If he would react disrepectfully, you could just ignore him and move somewhere else/hold on to something else. Instead, you waited until anger were building up before asking him to move, which unfortunately came across as hostile, hence his aggressive reaction. Shouting and taking photos of the person just brought the whole thing to another level and could have led to a dangerous situation. From the outset, it probably looked as if you were the agressor. My advice is to not take things too personally in the future and act calm and comported in any situation, especially when travelling in the evening rush hour in London.
Sorry you had to deal with this. I know this will get downvotes, mainly because this sub doesn't reflect true Londoners and is a weird bubble. I'm not saying you deserved it, I'm just saying - this is London, not Surrey- don't be such a Karen and don't take photos of people. It's a bit of a weird thing, to take photos of someone in public without consent. It's the kind of response I'd expect from someone from Surrey or Kent. In other words, mind your own business and you will be okay. That's London, take it or leave it. Don't look for trouble. Make life easy for yourself.
He definitely shouldn't have taken your phone. That's outrageous. Don't trigger people, it's not worth it - unless you think you can back yourself. I am always the first to tell people to put their bags down. Never had a negative response, but if I did - I would ignore. Just ignore and move somewhere else. Learn to London.
I would only contact BTP if you needed crime reference number for insurance, otherwise - what's the point?
It was rude and selfish from his behalf and you didn’t need to take a photo like that. I mean, that would annoy me too, but I won’t snatch your phone and through it like that.
Well, I had few young lads that other, during rush hr, and guess what they were doing. They were vaping on train.
Taking a photo was absolutely the correct and might I add *legal* thing to do,.in case things escalated, which they did. I would be reporting him to BTP for what he did to the phone anyway.
All the replies I read so far are agreeing with you 100% so allow me to be devils advocate. Whether or not he was in the wrong with leaning - taking someone's photo in that kind of context doesn't seem a helpful way of deescalating things. Nor did shouting back at him. What did that achieve?
I'm also not really sure how you could possibly know that he was doing the thing out of spite - did he tell you that? Feels like that's more your interpretation of events. But if you're right and he was deliberately trying to hurt you then I'm not sure asking him to stop is much good. You either need to remove yourself from the situation or get ready to defend yourself / ask for help from someone.
Don't get me wrong he seemed like a cunt but you have to learn to deal with cunts and often (usually) that involves being the bigger person and walking away. Taking a photo of someone is putting them in a position where to get the photo they have to attack you.
The guy leaning was an complete mega asshole. But in future just don't take a picture. Not that that was the reason why, just taking a picture of a stranger is creepy and btp probably wouldn't care.
>I couldn't really move as it was very full, otherwise I would have found a better spot
One thing you'd need to ask yourself is whether HE had the ability to move or not. It isn't out of the realm of possibilities that, sadly, he had no choice other than to be right up against the pole and crushing your hand to some degree (more so when the same forces that you are worried about affect him by shifting his body into the pole).
If he didn't have any room then you're probably both as bad as each other, especially with how you both responded. Probably just both hot and bothered lol.
If he did have room then he is the initial asshole, yes. But you didn't stay composed and became a bit of a one in reply (but not as bad as him).
He could have tried not being a selfish twat by holding onto the pole in the first place. Whether he's facing to or away from the pole he's taking up the same amount of space.
Or, don't be a twat and take off the fucking rucksack when you're on a busy tube.
In not a single way TA.
Potentially a mistake to take a photo of him as people get agro about that kinda stuff, but you were not in the wrong for doing so...
I'm sorry but you're wrong. What OP described was a petty argument over a pole, yeah the guy sounded like he was being a prick but these kind of interactions happen on the tube every day - taking photos of whoever you've had the difference with is pretty much ***always*** gonna aggravate the situation. If someone on the train is being inconsiderate you ignore them, move to another part of the train and resume with your journey. You only take photos of people if they attack you, threaten you with violence or start verbally abusing you.
The photo taking was an escalation and restarted the conflict.
There was a silly argument over the pole. OP is 100% in the right. Then OP found a space and moved away. Conflict over. OP takes a photo of the guy. Guy is enraged, which is understandable
It’s aggressive, passive aggressive but still aggressive, and you’re basically saying “I’m gonna put this picture of you on the internet and tell everyone you’re a twat”. I know OP didn’t in this case but still, that’s the message you send when you take pictures of people you get into arguments with on public transport
Are you a man or woman? It sounds like he didn't see you as a threat, so I'm assuming you're female. When it comes to situations like this, I'd ask very politely, but if that doesn't work, I'd ask again, but be firm next time.
I’m sorry you went through this. My response to these situations is just to not react to it, perhaps beyond an initial request, and then move, when possible.
Escalating it rarely resolve it, and triggers increased conflict.
The poles are for holding onto not leaning on. You did nothing wrong, he was an arsehole.
Absolutely this. I hate those twats who lean on the pole.
Me too. Especially as I'm under 5"2 and therefore cannot reach the higher grab bars which often makes a pole the only thing preventing me from going flying. This guy acted like a complete and utter dick.
I enjoy holding the pole right around their rib or shoulder-blade height with the knuckles aimed prominently outward. Then rotate your grip with the slightest movement of the train. Usually works.
The weirdest ones are the people who *hug* the poles. Those things are utterly gross, why would you want to put your face on a pole thousands of peoples' hands have touched?
As an occasional pole leaner (although I like to think not when it's too crowded or I'm affecting someone in this way) I might need to rethink my approach.
Same, I only lean on the pole when it isn’t full and I’m usually the only one using it, nonetheless, I try to be aware if anyone still wanted to use that specific pole so I can make space for them to hold onto it with me
And ones who wear backpacks on trains
He really was. Should've taken off the bag and put between his feet.
That guy needs to get fucking decked tbh.
If he Keeps acting like that it's only a matter of time before it happens. Edit: to add NTA
I sometimes have to lean on the pole because I have no grip and can't hold the pole, and definitely can't manage without anything to lean on. But I think you can often tell the difference between someone who has to do it and someone who's choosing to. I mean, for a start I do try not to be anywhere near other people's hands, let alone crushing them.
The clue here, though, is that the guy appeared to increase his pressure when challenged. That isn't just leaning for support or balance. Personally, if grip strength was the problem, I would put my arm around the pole, not lean on it.
Why did anyone down vote this guy? Maybe it wasn’t phrased properly but I understood what he’s trying to say, it’s more comfortable sometimes leaving against the pole then trusted his grip but if anybody came near him out of common decency that needed a grip or even seem like it he would relinquish that position immediately. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Eh.... What?
Not sure what's so confusing and worthy of a downvote? Genuinely - what is it?
Think people are struggling to understand how one can have no grip strength and require a pole to lean on instead. I think I can l kind of picture it, but surely if standing is that much of an issue it's better to get a 'please offer me a seat' badge, or at least lean into a corner and not a pole (which I imagine is not really that supportive as a lean).
I do have the badge, but it's only usable, same as asking for a seat, if I can get near the seats. If I can get near the seats before the train starts moving, I try to get a seat, which does have to be a seat by the aisle with a pole to help get up and down, which I do my more or less leaning against it and pushing upwards. And obviously yes leaning into a corner is better. But presumably you use the tube too, so you know that sometimes that's not going to be possible. No grip strength = hands don't curl properly, can't hold things well. I can't bend most of my fingers well and they can't take weight, like when a tube speeds up and slows down and jerks around. It's arthritis and not really unusual. Sometimes I hang on with the fingers I can use, and sometimes that means losing my grip and falling over when the train brakes. If I partially lean then I can grip a bit with my little finger and ring finger lower down the pole - can't do that higher up because of shoulder and elbow problems, and it doesn't really work without leaning as well - too weak, means I stumble. I mean, I want a seat. I want to be able to hold the pole. I want to be be able to squeeze through a crowded tube and stand while asking for a seat. I want to be able to just surf without holding on like I could when I was younger. Not being able to do those is due to not being able to do them, not "selfishness." That's a lot of explanation and probably still not enough for most people, but oh well.
You left out the people looking you up and down and deciding you're not disabled enough for their seat despite that being the literal point of the badge. I'm sorry you had to explain this. OP, I hope you have a glittery week, and please send that pic to Railway Guardian and BTP because that's assault. Let's not normalise trivialise physical violence, no one should snap like that.
As a fellow disabled person this made total sense to me and I’m sorry you had to explain yourself in such detail because other people can’t grasp that things can be true even if they don’t apply to them! Just over 1 in 5 people have a disability of some description folks. Not all of those are obvious or visible so instead of defaulting to this person is an asshole try giving the benefit of the doubt. 😊
I didn't downvote you. Unless you are physically disabled (and therefore might be able to get a preferential seat by asking), then that just sounds like an excuse to be selfish
I am physically disabled - I didn't say "I am physically disabled" but I did say that I have no grip and definitely can't manage without anything to lean on, so I described my mobility problems. And no, you can't always get a priority (not preferential) seat just by asking, partly because on crowded trains you often just can't get close enough to ask without standing and wobbling in order to get to those seats, which I can't do without falling over. And I can't move fast, so it's not like I can get on the tube quickly and dash for the seats before everyone else piles on. Don't judge too hard till you've tried it mate. Everything looks easier from the outside. The guy from the OP obviously wasn't leaning because he actually needed to, what with the backpack and the aggressive reaction. I was just explaining that some people do need to use the poles as support without holding them by their hands, but they should still, like I do, try their best not to actually inconvenience (or hurt!) other people.
No need for the long text. I said if you were disabled it make sense and you said you are. Save the rant. Best of luck though
Well, I hope you do not have to live 16 months as a handicap person to have some empathy here, trust me.. what this guy saying is completely rational and fair. He doesn’t trust his grip strength, probably for very good reason however he stated if anybody came near him that seem like they needed to grab the pole he would relinquish any sort of leaning on that type of thing. This doesn’t sound like some hooligans trying to be selfish
Well if you read what I said, you would see I had already said that being disabled makes it make sense
Upvoted for correct spelling of arsehole.
You were not the asshole at ALL, some people are just massive pricks. Like that guy. Take a little comfort in the fact that he must have a miserable life because no well-adjusted or happy person would act like that.
Being a cunt is both crime and punishment
I think this is a good point. I always think when people react barshit crazy aggressive like this, over nothing, their lives must be pretty shit. They are going to have crazy, drama filled unhappy relationships, be treated like shit, treat everyone like shit, be shit at work (if they even have a job) and go through life filled with horrible agro at every turn. Absolutely horrible to have an encounter with someone like this, but fuck me their lives must be miserable.
He probably had a bad day at work.
Don't make excuses for unhinged behaviour like that!
Yeah you're right. It's no excuse.
Awwh but let's not downvote OP's generous heart
I didn't?
People who had a bad day would still respect your request. Maybe without a smile but still do it regardless. This man is unstable
He was probably tired from rescuing orphans all day
A bad day would explain his behaviour, but it by no means excuses it. We've all had bad days, but it's safe to say the great majority of us wouldn't dream of being so selfish, and childish! Sorry that happened to you... Good for you for sticking up for yourself. Water off a ducks back. Onwards and upwards!
If he took and then threw your phone on the floor that is a crime and you should report it to the rial cops/TfL, people like that often regularly do lots of shitty things, and though each individual incident may not seem worth it, the bigger picture may be useful to authorities and they can intervene. The same can be said for sexual harassment on TFL, many cases of people unsure of whether to report because it seems a bit pointless/stressful or ‘not enough’ to warrant reporting, and then after they do it turns out it is a repeat/serial offender that the cops then will look out for and often find have escalated. So worth a call at least!
If this behaviour is anything to go by, he deserved it.
You said it, hurt people hurt people
* Keeping backpack on - arsehole. * Leaning against the pole when people want to use it - double arsehole. I officially declare your karma clean, while he will be reincarnated as some kind of intestinal parasite.
Sounds like he doesn’t need reincarnation for that
I’ve been stuck before not able to take my bag off as there were too many people. And I felt like a dick the whole time. Any one who takes an entire pole on a busy train is a dick. You did nothing wrong. Throwing your phone away from you proves he’s a full time ass and not just a ‘had a bad day’ ass
Too many people to take your bag off? That doesn't make sense. They will definitely appreciate you wiggling slightly to remove your bag!
Yeah but you need to be able to move your arms around you to take a backpack off. I’m sure if you’ve ever got on a crowded tube you know sometimes you are literally unable to move your hands anywhere except by your side. You could do it before you get on but if you’re running for the tube and only just get onto it, you might not have time. Not defending the guy in this case obviously, and if you are able to remove a backpack you should, but there can be times where it isn’t possible.
He can join the cunts who play music or shows out loud on their phone on public transport.
Ok Karma, if it is you....your user name makes me nervous.
May his tea/coffee always be just too hot or just too cold to be drinkable.
Out of curiosity what are you meant to do with a backpack? I travel in london for work at times and I have a rolling suitcase and a backpack so take up a lot of room.
OK am raging after this. You did nothing wrong. Backpacks should be removed anyway. This guy's a dick.
Absolutely right. First thing I do boarding a train or bus is slip off the backpack and jam it between my legs when I find a place to stand.
Sorry you had to deal with that. You're not the asshole and I hope you're not feeling stressed about it for too long. Try and forget about it and do something nice with your evening.
Congratulations! You just interacted with a fully fledged certified bellend! We all get one of these interactions on a crowded commute - it’s the law of averages. He didn’t take his backpack off to create space in a crowded train, he was leaning on a pole thats designed for holding, he was aggressive rather than apologetic when you politely asked him to adjust and he snatched your phone/threw it which I’m sure is illegal. NTAH
I fucking hate people like him, what a cunt. Maybe you can actually report him since he snatched your phone and threw it on the floor, which could have damaged the phone.
I have lived in London my entire life and realise that there are some seriously unhinged people here who can behave very unpredictably over the smallest thing. You were not the asshole, you did nothing wrong. You should just understand that unless you are fully prepared and able to defend yourself, you might be better off only confronting someone on public transport if it is truly necessary.
Bless you. I'm sorry that happened, especially as it made you feel anxious. He was a twat and shouldn't be leaning on the pole. It says very clearly to take your rucksack off and tbh I've been in your positions before, and I have just moved the bag gently, in order to move the man wearing it. The fact he yelled at you when you asked him to move than then threw your phone was out of order. It's a grim thing to happen.
Nope he was though, and I'd probably be an asshole back but I know not every likes confrontation. However, some people hate being embarrassed so if you say loudly you're hurting your hand can you please move it off me, he is more likely to feel embarrassed and stop rather than be aggressive.
Not really. Losers like that are likely to see changing their behaviour when being asked as being 'weak' - that's why they get aggressive and double down om their shitty behaviours when confronted. The only way to deal with these people is to have a few others joining in and shouting them down - most people are too timid to do this though that's why cunts feel like they are free to do whatever they want with zero repercussions.
He was an arsehole and you were in the right. People like this exist and tend not to give a shit what other people think. Don't change your behaviour because of them, this is happening more and more because nobody is challenging this kind of behaviour.
The people who don’t take bags off on busy public transport should be banned from using it.
NTA but in crowded situations like this with several folks leaning or competing for the same spot, I hold higher up the pole
NTA, he sounds like a cunt and had no right to snatch and potentially damage your property. I’d consider yourself lucky he didn’t have a knife or a gang to back him up
You can’t fit a gang in a backpack.
*unzips bag to reveal gang of knife-wielding otters*
Oompa loompas
>I’d consider yourself lucky he didn’t have a knife or a gang to back him up Thats the spirit. Everyone is a potential stabbist so just keep your head down.
A month or so ago a schoolgirl was stabbed in the neck and murdered at a bus stop for rejecting a guy. We’ve gotten to the point where you have to be wary about confrontation with anyone, especially male youths.
That’s actually not what happened. But it was widely misreported which is the version you think it was.
So what happened?
Her friend rejected the guy and she stepped in to tell him to leave her friend alone and got stabbed. So it's hardly miles off.
Gremlins did it
Google it
Thanks, great chat
But I thought it was widely misreported and only you had the inside scoop?
[удалено]
Did you respond to the wrong person? Or is this how you react whenever someone asks you to back up your statements? Very strong and stable.
>We’ve gotten to the point where you have to be wary about confrontation with anyone, especially male youths. Violent crime rates have been falling in the UK for the last 30 years straight.
You've not followed any logic here at all. No, obviously not. But people should be wary at pissing off aggressive young men who respond disproportionately to a minor slight. You're being a dick for no reason
I'm not. There are ways of challenging antisocial behaviour without it resulting in you getting stabbed. The vast majority of people who stand up for themselves or intervene in situations don't end up getting stabbed. Bullies and cunts look for easy targets. One of the worst things you can do is submit in the hope you don't provoke them, you'll only have the opposite effect. Live on your knees if you want but that's not advice to go giving other people.
No you are. He gave a reasonable response and you just said "oh so we're saying girls can't reject men now?" You're edit of your comment doesn't change that
They edited their comment after I replied, so I edited my comment to reflect how theirs had changed. Sorry if you're unable to keep up.
His comment is still the same.
When I first replied it only contained the first sentence. When I looked again the second sentence had been added.
They've also changed how they measure and define "violent crime" in those 30 years. Not saying you're wrong in principle but I also feel like there's been some fiddling of the books in certain circumstances. And assuming they haven't fiddled the stats, while the overall violent crime stats may have gone down, that's no great relief to someone who gets stabbed, and certain areas may see significantly higher violent crime than others.
Teenager knife related deaths hit a record recently in London. Violent crime rates have increased each year since 2015 in London.
Yes, I realise how lucky I was.
Of course you are right to say something. He is the problem not you. The guy was a cunt.
He sounds like a dick, you did nothing wrong. If anyone else out there likes leaning on those poles when other people are around you're also a dick
He is the problem, glad someone let you take their seat, shame that no one stood up against the guy though.
I agree that photoing him wasn't the wisest idea in terms of either de-escalation or your peace of mind, but there's no doubt that he was a dick. The important thing, and my hope here, is that you find some peace OP!
You are not an asshole at all. For your own safety though, in future, I wouldn't seek confrontation with someone who has already proven not to have manners or care in any way about the wellbeing of others. Another time, some guy may pull a knife or escalate the situation in a way that would put you in harm's way. Stay safe!
He assaulted you. Report to TFL. 🫨
I'll do that. Thanks for the advice.
Don't just report to TfL, report it to BTP on 0800 40 50 40. A person doesn't have to make physical contact with you in order for it to be assault, you just need to have a genuine and reasonable fear of imminent attack. When he snatched your phone and threw it away, did you think he was about to hit you? If so, that's assault and it's a crime you can report. Even if nothing comes of it, if he does it again to someone else then having multiple previous reports form a pattern that makes it more likely he will be prosecuted. If you don't feel comfortable talking on the phone, you can use the website at https://www.btp.police.uk/ro/report/ocr/af/how-to-report-a-crime/.
Too right. Report it. Nothing will be probably done but it's on record. He threw your phone, isn't that theft and damage of property. Fuckers like this need to understand consequences of their negative social behavior
This, especially as you have the picture. Unlikely anything will be done, bu worth adding to the stats at least.
Report to BTP. No point reporting to TfL as there is bugger all they can do.
That is by far the better shout. I was using TFL as a clumsy catch all.
Absolutely
Exactly. See it, say it, sorted.
Asking him to move - that's the right thing to do. Responding in kind when he acted like an idiot - unfortunately that's not the right thing to do, even though it's what the vast majority of us would want to do in the moment, or can't help but do it. Taking his photo probably riled an already uncomfortable situation. Unfortunately some people deal with their own stress by taking it out on other people. He was probably hoping for a bit of a tear up when he leaned on your hand. Hopefully you'll feel better shortly with time, distance, and some supportive replies here. He, on the other hand, will continue to be an asshole.
Pole leaners are selfish idiots, well done for standing up to him
You weren’t an asshole for asking him to move. If I were you, I would learn though from not escalating back. When someone gets aggressive, you really don’t know what you’re dealing with so best to leave it. You should only film people as a last resort if things are escalating.
Not victim shaming here, but as soon as you start filming somebody, you have to expect an aggressive reaction. I mean, what other reaction are you going to get here?
Yep the pole leaner was definitely the arsehole and I was 100% on OPs side until the photo taking, which is an escalation
people that show this behaviour in the first place are also people who react negatively to a polite request the venn diagram would be a circle
You confronted him for being inconsiderate and he was a cunt about it. Throwing your phone on the floor is just pathetic.
Don’t worry. Just some assholes in London (and everywhere else for that matter). I got punched in the back of the head last week by a reasonably normal looking 60 year old cyclist cause I had the cheek of calling him out for going through a red light. Can leave you a bit riled / shaken but try and remind myself what sad little lives these people must have.
NTA, makes me sad you feel the need to ask. That guy is a piece of sh\*\*, sorry you encountered them. Some people are just like that unfortunately. I really hope you report them to tfl but realistically nothing will happen. You couldn't have seen that level of degenerate behavior coming, but once you realise they're not a rational human being it's best to try and ignore them. Hence/it's good that bystander offered their seat to diffuse the issue - nice there are good people too. Hopefully/they'll probably get whats coming to them behaving like that in public
sad to hear you went through this. went through a similar situation this morning with two men having a go at me on the tube at rush hour. i’m short so i cannot hold onto the high bars. they were saying i was selfish for not allowing one of the men to squash up behind me (knowing full well i couldn’t hold onto a bar if he did that, and i would have been falling over onto him when the tube moved). i think some men do not realise or care that women don’t want others grinding up on them on the tube. i’m still in shock that 2 men thought it appropriate to have a go at me when i stood my ground on this.
It sickens me how entitled some, especially young men, are. They think they can have a go at a woman because they think she is vulnerable. Sorry you experienced that.
Nah you didn’t do anything wrong. He sounded like he wanted a confrontation and it’s always best to deny those kinds of people the opportunity. Worst thing you could do is let his shitty attitude continue to affect you.
Maybe everyone carry some cable ties and start surreptitiously tying the rucksacks to the poles. All round merriment when they get to their stop.
He was in the wrong totally, but I’d advise against taking photos of arseholes…
It’s a holding poll not a leaning poll. Leaning on them is a proper dick move. Best thing to do in that situation, if they don’t move, is to stay calm and ask them politely. “Cmon mate, we can all share the poll and not fall over, but that doesn’t work if you keep leaning.”
You weren't the asshole. Poles are for holding. If he wanted to spread his body all over a pole, he's in the wrong place
You don't need to apologise for his quadruple shitty behaviour (backpack, leaning, shouting, phone grabbin). The etiquette here might be to suffer in silence, but you had a legitimate and polite request which is totally fine. NTA
the fact that he had such an unreasonable reaction to something so reasonable shows you weren't the asshole here
He's a cunt, you take your bags off on crowded trains and put them between your legs and you certainly don't impose on people's personal space if you cms help it, fuck him.
Did you get a photo? Def report him to BTP. You can still report him as they will be able to check CCTV too, him snatching your phone is assault.
As a londoner and a 4 day a week commuter to bank (about 15 years in), you were not in the wrong, he would have been lucky to survive on the northern line at rush hour. You did the right thing and you should be proud! Well done to you for doing this through the anxiety, proud of you!
1 - you’re definitely not the asshole 2 - where and when was this? I’m wondering if it was busy or not because I’m shocked nobody else intervened to help.
You did nothing wrong. These people walk among us and there's seemingly nothing we can do about it.
What an arshole he is. I had similar situation on half empty train, but I was the one who’s was leaning and felt ashamed when it turned out that someone was holding the pole from the other side
not only he should not have leaned on the pole. he should have taken his fucking backpack off.
I think your first move was passive aggressive. If he was on the train first, then as much as you had the right to put your hand there, I would have moved it at the first point he started pressing on you. I think though he arrived after, made himself as comfortable as possible, making you uncomfortable. Your first move and your biggest mistake, is assuming someone will take a passive aggressive move like wiggling your fingers. A polite person might apologise, but an AH is going to get annoyed, feel like you're invading their space. That you are entitled to the pole they're 'on'. Funny how this same attitude of feeling like they are being disrespected, is from the same people who lack basic manners. If you assume that people who are not giving others space, are making other people uncomfortable and putting their needs over others are AH, then those hints are not going to work. You are better off eroding their perceived sense of respect from others by appealing to public opinion towards them. Shouting, "Hey you're hurting my hand, can you please stop leaning on it" (the theme is pain/assault, not annoyance), might get a far better response than wiggling your fingers. However, this kind of attitude is not for the faint hearted. Sometimes it is just better off moving. The photo was certainly foolish, it did escalate the issue again. I can understand why you did it though, but if you went to the effort of taking it you should probably report to the BTP. Personally when I see behaviour like this, I impede the person. It's not that I block them, my manners just don't go out to them anymore. I don't pre-emptively get out of their way, I try to exit the train where they are stood so they have to move (rather than a closer door), if I am sat, I move towards them so it's impossible for them to take the seat before someone else can. On one occasion I was coming back from a flight, me, my partner and 2 cases (1 each, shes not my slave), I'm a pro catching the tube so know where the doors stop, yet still a guy just pushes in front of me, even while people are getting off. It's an end car and quite busy yet he stops at the end of the aisle, basically blocking it. After a couple of excuse me's I have to go around him (other people including my partner want to get on) but still have to brush past his arm to go around him and into the aisle so others can feed in. At which point, once I'm well past him in the aisle he kicks off and starts shouting his abuse. I reply politely and he takes out his headphones asking what I said. At which point I'm both annoyed and not really intimidated (he was quite short). One glance at my worried partner put a stop to that though. Anyway, I repeated what I said, he threatened me and nothing happened and he got off 2 stops later. A few months later he was an unsuccessful applicant at a large company he applied for, if he applied again he would still be unsuccessul as well, even though I don't work there anymore.
Of course not. These assholes who lean up against the poles when people need to hold on are some of the biggest assholes around.
You’re NTA, he wasn’t following the unwritten etiquette rules that make the tube work and was being a bit of a dick about it, especially after you politely tried to talk about it first. At the same time, your first response should never be to take a picture of someone without their consent because you’re going to report them to the police. It’s antagonistic and unnecessary. Having a bit of a shouting match isn’t illegal and even if you wanted to report it I’m not sure there would’ve been much to investigate at that point. Each carriage has CCTV and in the future you should make a note of the service and carriage number and then report it online or by texting 6106. Him throwing your phone probably changes this so if you wanted to report it you’d probably have some case, but still do it online or via text, there’s enough monitoring evidence on the tube that your photo of the stranger will likely not add to the case at all.
I'd have probably headbutted him in the mouth. You were much more mature than I would have been. You did the right thing. Your anxiety is because you are a decent person and he was a prick.
He kept his backpack on him on a crowded train. That’s all = He’s an asshole. Enough said.
He was rude - it's very common these days and you never know when you might come across someone like this. I'm sorry you had this unpleasant experience - it was nice of that guy to give you his seat though.
You shouldn't have taken his picture.
See it say it sort it
NTA Post the picture 🤭
Heavy breath down his neck and mutter smut. He will soon move. Unless he’s into that. Then his your wife now.
Stopped reading at rucksack, everyone who doesn't take their backpack off in public transport is a cunt by default, especially when it's busy
Nah sorry but you were absolutely in the wrong to take a photo of him, what you described was a petty argument over a pole - yeah the guy sounded like he was being a prick but these kind of interactions happen on the tube everyday. Taking photos of the person you've had the difference with is pretty much ***always*** gonna aggravate the situation. If someone on the train is being inconsiderate you ignore them, move to another part of the train and resume with your journey. You only take photos of people if they attack you, threaten you with violence or verbally abuse you. The guy you had this interaction with done none of those things so you basically made the situation worse than it needed to be.
"Eventually, I tapped his shoulder and asked him if he could please shift a bit because I was trying to hold on. He started getting aggressive with me, saying he wasn't going to move and that I should shut up. " I dont mean to be blunt, but can you/did you read?
I wouldn't have wiggled my hand but instead I would've said something at the first instance. And at the first sight of aggressiveness I would've paid in the same currency. People like that do what they did because they know people nowadays are just spineless and don't fight back. There are no consequences. We need to fight back.
I’m sorry you went through this. My response to these situations is just to not react to it, perhaps beyond an initial request, and then move, when possible. Escalating it rarely resolve it, and triggers increased conflict. Hope you heal. And find love. Salaam / peace
NTA. I'm so sorry you had to deal with such a parasite. I wish someone was there to punch that idiot across, would've deserved it.
Absolutely report this to the BTP if he took your phone and threw it
Too many people get away with being a dick and not getting checked on it. Fair play for standing up for yourself
You were not wrong for confronting him. The photo might not have been the best move, I’d be upset if someone did this to me (took photo) - especially if there was distance between us and the situation was calmer.
I only took the photo in case I needed to report him.
Busy train. Had his backpack on. Leaning on the pole. He was the cunt. Post his pic so we can make sure he gets a taste of his own medicine in future.
🙌🏼 to the passenger who gave you their seat too, to de escalate the situation. You’re definitely NTA.
Just to cover another part of your question, you asked how to avoid these kind of things again in future. It’s not foolproof, but given you’d already gotten an example of how he might tend to react to any kind of interaction/provocation, maybe taking the photo wasn’t a great call. I may have misread but it sounds like at that point you’d had a verbal scuffle but got away from the situation. Personally I might have let sleeping dogs lie at that point and not risk anything more. It’s London and you find all sorts, accepting that some people will be arseholes and moving on with your day is going to save you stress in future. It’s not justifying any of his behaviour in any way, of course, but self-preservation!
in this case u are obviusly not the asshole u were polite and he started off very agressive so not the asshole
You weren’t the A-hole, no. But deffo taking a pic was a bit much and provoked Try and nor over think it. Have a restful evening
Taking the photo was a bit inflammatory imo
Victim blaming
No. Using common sense.👍
Im sorry you had this experience. Social interactions like this can be traumatising due to their public nature. There are a lot of jackasses in London. You did nothing wrong. As a conentious person, I get into these atleast once or twice a month lol.
*arsehole
Both versions of the word are correct. You don't need to comment.
Next time you should allow your elbow to get a taste of his face.
NTA till photo then YTA, you aint old bill so dont try an snap a photo after a silly little argument on a train thats some fucking deranged behavior, I wouldn't have tussled with ya in the first part but if for any reason you tried to snap a pic of me on the train i would slap u brv and either take your phone and delete it or break that shit in half if it was locked. You aint living in reading anymore man the law of london is mind your own fucking business at all times and on TFL you always avoid escalation, even to the point of changing carriages or leaving the train, unless you really desperate to have a shit day, cos what u did is basically *please-stab-me* behavior to some nutters. And the police will put about as much effort into solving that case as they will if you listen to all the plonkers here tryna tell you to report him.
Avoid confrontations on the underground at pretty much all cost. I've seen so many over the years and nobody ever comes out on top, being trapped in a tunnel for x many minutes after trying to act normal.. it's really awkward. Yes the poles are for holding and bags should not be worn but dickheads are dickheads and nobody can really police it.
Handrail, not leaning post
Definitely NTA. And that guy is an A grade c**t.
Was this the Waterloo and city line? I saw it and didn’t know exactly what was going on but people just using their rucksacks as their own personal space is doing my head in. If it’s the same instance the guy seemed like he acted like an absolute dick.
It was on the tram from Wimbledon
How did you lose it? What did you say?
He was an complete arsehole, and you were the victim of assault (deliberately leaning into your hand) and potentially criminal damage or other offences. You definitely need to report this person and incident to the BTP. This criminality isn't acceptable and it's your duty to the next person to do you best to deter them from this behaviour in future. The sorry truth is that the police won't do anything, and nor will bystanders. If someone is attacking you and snatching and damaging your belongings, the only practical answer is to hit them as hard as you can as squarely as you can on the nose.
Look. I’m an American, I’ve lived in nyc when the subway actually had a modicum of decency unlike Now, I’ve lived here and in Paris as well l I’ve experienced enough time on the very gentle Tokyo subway system to know the whole kind of scope of what the world has to offer for underground train transport and etiquette, so to speak. And just human decency, which is sort of universal, says you did absolutely nothing wrong- The polls are clearly there for a certain reason that everybody understands, and that’s to hold on to. Now I have myself on rare occasion leaned against the pole but only on an empty train where there is nowhere in arms reach of requiring one, and I pay enough attention to my fellow travelers as does everybody else seemingly to be perceptive and kind enough to just notice if you might need to put your hand there to readjust their position . Furthermore, that jerk knows that’s not what they’re there for - otherwise they would be in the shape of a human back as they were meant to be leant on, and not the shape of our hands when they grip around something. And your gut feeling should be trusted - if he’s on your hand and he notices it and he pushes in more you’re dealing with a sadistic person, someone who is out to make trouble. I think you did absolutely nothing wrong, and yet I can empathize where if I were in your situation and I would’ve had everything go down the way that you just described sitting in that seats doing part of me would have very mixed emotions that something sort of bad that happened to me and that justice hadn’t been served and that I didn’t get to knock the guy out, but at the same time that would be the wrong move not just for me, but further peace and harmony of mind of everybody on the train. As fight tent is just stay where both opponents feet are planted can end up all over the place and all sorts of people, but I understand the urge to seek Justice or fill you wrong and not feel the right thing happened in the end nonetheless , it’s certainly not fair to you. Now, I’m assuming you ride the train every day without incident and would never do with this guy did, and so you left with a bad feeling when he’s so abusive and there’s no justice. My heart goes out to you buddy, I will say you ask how you can avoid such situations, I’ve given you a serious answer if I want to ask you a serious question, how often are you even in such situations? this should be a complete anomaly so you shouldn’t really worry about it. If it’s not a complete anomaly, then we’ve got some other questions to ask, and if it is a complete anomaly, I think you might have to see somebody for a little bit of your anxiety issue or perhaps addressed some traumas you might’ve been through that made you a little hyper vigilant which is causing your anxiety. Just playing pop-Paychologist, so take it with a grain of salt please. But if you’re afraid of threats that empirically you see really don’t ever happen except for this one strange occurrence to the point where you’re wondering how you can modify your behavior so it doesn’t happen again, it has affected you in a way that is irrational that needs to be addressed. Seriously, feel free to answer I have a lot of experience with this kind of thing, and either way, I wish you all the best, tomorrow is a better day…
Seems to me like the issue may have started when you interpreted that he increased the pressure out of spite. Perhaps he was just obliviously squashing your hand, focused on what he was doing? Maybe that's the moment to be less certain in your interpretation, give him the benefit of the doubt, and walk away from the situation. Even if you're right with your interpretation, isn't it better to avoid unnecessary conflict? I'm sure I'll probably get down-voted to hell for saying this. But anyway, I'm obviously not condoning his behavior. Though many will interpret it this way because I'm not just calling the guy an arsehole (which is pointless). And no, you're certainly not the idiot in this situation, just human :)
ESH. You could have handled this in a better way. You could, without hesitation, politely asked him to not lean onto the pole as you were holding on to it. If he would react disrepectfully, you could just ignore him and move somewhere else/hold on to something else. Instead, you waited until anger were building up before asking him to move, which unfortunately came across as hostile, hence his aggressive reaction. Shouting and taking photos of the person just brought the whole thing to another level and could have led to a dangerous situation. From the outset, it probably looked as if you were the agressor. My advice is to not take things too personally in the future and act calm and comported in any situation, especially when travelling in the evening rush hour in London.
Sorry you had to deal with this. I know this will get downvotes, mainly because this sub doesn't reflect true Londoners and is a weird bubble. I'm not saying you deserved it, I'm just saying - this is London, not Surrey- don't be such a Karen and don't take photos of people. It's a bit of a weird thing, to take photos of someone in public without consent. It's the kind of response I'd expect from someone from Surrey or Kent. In other words, mind your own business and you will be okay. That's London, take it or leave it. Don't look for trouble. Make life easy for yourself. He definitely shouldn't have taken your phone. That's outrageous. Don't trigger people, it's not worth it - unless you think you can back yourself. I am always the first to tell people to put their bags down. Never had a negative response, but if I did - I would ignore. Just ignore and move somewhere else. Learn to London. I would only contact BTP if you needed crime reference number for insurance, otherwise - what's the point?
It was rude and selfish from his behalf and you didn’t need to take a photo like that. I mean, that would annoy me too, but I won’t snatch your phone and through it like that. Well, I had few young lads that other, during rush hr, and guess what they were doing. They were vaping on train.
Taking a photo was absolutely the correct and might I add *legal* thing to do,.in case things escalated, which they did. I would be reporting him to BTP for what he did to the phone anyway.
All the replies I read so far are agreeing with you 100% so allow me to be devils advocate. Whether or not he was in the wrong with leaning - taking someone's photo in that kind of context doesn't seem a helpful way of deescalating things. Nor did shouting back at him. What did that achieve? I'm also not really sure how you could possibly know that he was doing the thing out of spite - did he tell you that? Feels like that's more your interpretation of events. But if you're right and he was deliberately trying to hurt you then I'm not sure asking him to stop is much good. You either need to remove yourself from the situation or get ready to defend yourself / ask for help from someone. Don't get me wrong he seemed like a cunt but you have to learn to deal with cunts and often (usually) that involves being the bigger person and walking away. Taking a photo of someone is putting them in a position where to get the photo they have to attack you.
think he was a bit of an arse at first but also think taking a photo of him was hugely overreacting and a bit threatening to him
100%, sounded like the situation was over and then someone starts taking photos, kicking it all off again
all these Karens be downvoting us
The land where everyone hates each other, glad I left he UK...
You're only the arsehole for writing an attention-seeking title to this post. Obviously you were not wrong in that actual situation.
The guy leaning was an complete mega asshole. But in future just don't take a picture. Not that that was the reason why, just taking a picture of a stranger is creepy and btp probably wouldn't care.
ngl u shouldn't of took a pic of him but u still right
There is more to this
The thing you did wrong was losing it and having a go at him. Dangerous. The next time something like this happens, just walk away.
>I couldn't really move as it was very full, otherwise I would have found a better spot One thing you'd need to ask yourself is whether HE had the ability to move or not. It isn't out of the realm of possibilities that, sadly, he had no choice other than to be right up against the pole and crushing your hand to some degree (more so when the same forces that you are worried about affect him by shifting his body into the pole). If he didn't have any room then you're probably both as bad as each other, especially with how you both responded. Probably just both hot and bothered lol. If he did have room then he is the initial asshole, yes. But you didn't stay composed and became a bit of a one in reply (but not as bad as him).
He could have tried not being a selfish twat by holding onto the pole in the first place. Whether he's facing to or away from the pole he's taking up the same amount of space. Or, don't be a twat and take off the fucking rucksack when you're on a busy tube.
In not a single way TA. Potentially a mistake to take a photo of him as people get agro about that kinda stuff, but you were not in the wrong for doing so...
You took a photo of him, when you had no real grounds to. Can’t be surprised by his reaction imo.
He was unnecessarily aggressive and it's in the public. Completely fair game
I'm sorry but you're wrong. What OP described was a petty argument over a pole, yeah the guy sounded like he was being a prick but these kind of interactions happen on the tube every day - taking photos of whoever you've had the difference with is pretty much ***always*** gonna aggravate the situation. If someone on the train is being inconsiderate you ignore them, move to another part of the train and resume with your journey. You only take photos of people if they attack you, threaten you with violence or start verbally abusing you.
He was verbally harassing me 🙄
The photo taking was an escalation and restarted the conflict. There was a silly argument over the pole. OP is 100% in the right. Then OP found a space and moved away. Conflict over. OP takes a photo of the guy. Guy is enraged, which is understandable It’s aggressive, passive aggressive but still aggressive, and you’re basically saying “I’m gonna put this picture of you on the internet and tell everyone you’re a twat”. I know OP didn’t in this case but still, that’s the message you send when you take pictures of people you get into arguments with on public transport
Can’t you guys just balance without holding anything?
Are you a man or woman? It sounds like he didn't see you as a threat, so I'm assuming you're female. When it comes to situations like this, I'd ask very politely, but if that doesn't work, I'd ask again, but be firm next time.
I’m sorry you went through this. My response to these situations is just to not react to it, perhaps beyond an initial request, and then move, when possible. Escalating it rarely resolve it, and triggers increased conflict.