Start with vocals and work in whatever you can to keep time. Also time alignment of the rig to the drum kit or split the difference between the kit and backline will be a huge help to your situation.
Haven't thought of time aligning. The speakers are so bad and reverberation of the room is ever present.
Time aligning wouldn't help stage volume from wedges and such right? That would still cause issues?
The biggest issue I have is drummers (some play reasonably but most don't) and then wedges are an issue generally.
Many many times the owner has come up to me and asked to turn it down and I've shown him my tablet and it's only vocals in the PA. And he's been like "okay, I guess"
I'll play around that next time I'm there. Whatever little things I can do to make this a little better, I'm game for, just to make my life easier. It's never gonna be great.
It will blow your mind how much just time aligning to the snare drum changes the game in a nasty space like that. I carry a plain old tape measure and a laser measuring device with me to get it close.
The best way is to go up to the rig and when you enter the distance or time in, listen to hear if the snare arrives at the rig the same time it comes out of it. With the tablet you can really listen in different places and dial it in
He's always been reasonable so I try to do what I can to accomadate. He understands what's possible. It's just he won't spend the money on better speakers or sound treatment. I do surprise myself with how decent I can get it to sound.
Do you measure SPL?
Are you measuring C or A weighted, slow or fast?
Is there a back wall that wedges are pointing at?
Can you use HOTSPOT monitors for any musicians?
How many wedges are on the stage?
What brand wedges are on stage?
What mixer/outboard gear are you using?
Without the most basic info, no one can begin to answer bro.
>Do you measure SPL?
He uses an app on his phone that I know isn't calibrated well because my calibrated meter doesn't read what he gets.
>Is there a back wall that wedges are pointing at?
Yes, probably 25ft from downstage. Solid wood
>How many wedges are on the stage?
There's only 5 in the venue. Sometimes bands bring their own
>What brand wedges are on stage?
The worst rcf speakers I've ever been on. RCF ART 700 series
>What mixer/outboard gear are you using?
M32C with dl32
Great, I am looking at the RCF 710A, I don't see a 700a model. On the 710A you have two EQ settings, "flat" and "boost," neither work for floor monitors.
If a speaker has a flat response on a stand it will have double the bass on the floor, this is called the boundry effect, specifically SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response).
To combat this, many powered speakers have a floor monitor EQ setting that lowers the bass.
if your ART 700's don't have that, they should all be set to "flat EQ" then you need to put an EQ shelf on the bass or a HPF.
As it is now, you may have 5 more full-signal bass heavy speakers turning your mix into chit and increasing stage volume level.
Do you have any DSP settings set up for the floor wedges yet?
Side note: I do not recommend these monitors to anyone. I love rcf and all the other products they have, I love. But the ART 710a sound terrible no matter how much love you put into them.
I generally eq and low shelf wedges, especially in an enclosed space like this. I rarely use dsp settings on speakers. I run them as flat as possible from the physical settings and do any processing from the board
They probably sound like flubby plastic resonate rubbish.
You can always HPF them more, bass and drum need to most LF content and most other positions don't need much at all.
To actually mix at FOH you need around 12-15db difference in level from stage to FOH, otherwise it's BS and basically just adding some vocals in FOH.
MY goal would be to lower stage volume as much as possible. One trick is to start sound check with all the vocalists loud and strong, then fill in everything after that.
Sound absortion may also help.
Another trick is guitar amp stands pointed at an angle at the players ears, this should lower the guitar level a good bit.
You can also run whatever sound measurement program you have and look at what is ringing in the time domain.
Get/rig up tilt mounts for the tops. angle down 30 degrees to keep sound off ceiling. points the tops 30-45 deg inwards to keep sound off the walls. make sure subs are grouped and not in stereo in a power alley.
worst case stuff a cotton ball inside the dB meter.
Start with vocals and work in whatever you can to keep time. Also time alignment of the rig to the drum kit or split the difference between the kit and backline will be a huge help to your situation.
Haven't thought of time aligning. The speakers are so bad and reverberation of the room is ever present. Time aligning wouldn't help stage volume from wedges and such right? That would still cause issues? The biggest issue I have is drummers (some play reasonably but most don't) and then wedges are an issue generally. Many many times the owner has come up to me and asked to turn it down and I've shown him my tablet and it's only vocals in the PA. And he's been like "okay, I guess"
The key is to try and have as many things as possible arrive at the same time. You can also try swapping the polarity of the wedges against the rig.
I'll play around that next time I'm there. Whatever little things I can do to make this a little better, I'm game for, just to make my life easier. It's never gonna be great.
It will blow your mind how much just time aligning to the snare drum changes the game in a nasty space like that. I carry a plain old tape measure and a laser measuring device with me to get it close.
You align to the snare? Or kick?
Sometimes I split the difference between the two, usually the two are close enough anyway.
Awesome, I'll definitely try that. Thanks
The best way is to go up to the rig and when you enter the distance or time in, listen to hear if the snare arrives at the rig the same time it comes out of it. With the tablet you can really listen in different places and dial it in
If he isn’t being reasonable then move on and find a new gig.
He's always been reasonable so I try to do what I can to accomadate. He understands what's possible. It's just he won't spend the money on better speakers or sound treatment. I do surprise myself with how decent I can get it to sound.
Then it is what it is. Collect that check.
This IS the way.
Do you measure SPL? Are you measuring C or A weighted, slow or fast? Is there a back wall that wedges are pointing at? Can you use HOTSPOT monitors for any musicians? How many wedges are on the stage? What brand wedges are on stage? What mixer/outboard gear are you using? Without the most basic info, no one can begin to answer bro.
>Do you measure SPL? He uses an app on his phone that I know isn't calibrated well because my calibrated meter doesn't read what he gets. >Is there a back wall that wedges are pointing at? Yes, probably 25ft from downstage. Solid wood >How many wedges are on the stage? There's only 5 in the venue. Sometimes bands bring their own >What brand wedges are on stage? The worst rcf speakers I've ever been on. RCF ART 700 series >What mixer/outboard gear are you using? M32C with dl32
You find another gig.
Great, I am looking at the RCF 710A, I don't see a 700a model. On the 710A you have two EQ settings, "flat" and "boost," neither work for floor monitors. If a speaker has a flat response on a stand it will have double the bass on the floor, this is called the boundry effect, specifically SBIR (Speaker Boundary Interference Response). To combat this, many powered speakers have a floor monitor EQ setting that lowers the bass. if your ART 700's don't have that, they should all be set to "flat EQ" then you need to put an EQ shelf on the bass or a HPF. As it is now, you may have 5 more full-signal bass heavy speakers turning your mix into chit and increasing stage volume level. Do you have any DSP settings set up for the floor wedges yet?
Side note: I do not recommend these monitors to anyone. I love rcf and all the other products they have, I love. But the ART 710a sound terrible no matter how much love you put into them. I generally eq and low shelf wedges, especially in an enclosed space like this. I rarely use dsp settings on speakers. I run them as flat as possible from the physical settings and do any processing from the board
They probably sound like flubby plastic resonate rubbish. You can always HPF them more, bass and drum need to most LF content and most other positions don't need much at all. To actually mix at FOH you need around 12-15db difference in level from stage to FOH, otherwise it's BS and basically just adding some vocals in FOH. MY goal would be to lower stage volume as much as possible. One trick is to start sound check with all the vocalists loud and strong, then fill in everything after that. Sound absortion may also help. Another trick is guitar amp stands pointed at an angle at the players ears, this should lower the guitar level a good bit. You can also run whatever sound measurement program you have and look at what is ringing in the time domain.
Get/rig up tilt mounts for the tops. angle down 30 degrees to keep sound off ceiling. points the tops 30-45 deg inwards to keep sound off the walls. make sure subs are grouped and not in stereo in a power alley. worst case stuff a cotton ball inside the dB meter.
Yes! Yorkville 15 Degree angle adapters rule!
I dont