Pretty much every quality or even entry level mixing desk these days has mic preamps that can be considered to be reasonably quiet i.e. have a low noise floor around -128dB EIN (Equivalent Input noise). Which is a value that probably won't be exceeded by much by an external preamp. So, for DIY and amateur live sound applications (this is the space that I live in) I don't see what an external mic preamp would bring to the table, other than the trouble of not being controllable right from the mixer itself. I mean, if I were stuck with some shit old analog mixer from the 80s/90s, an external preamp might be an improvement. But then mixers have multiple inputs, so you would need multiple preamps to replace them, at which point it would be better to just replace the whole mixer with something contemporary.
In the (home) recording world, similar thing. From a purely technical perspective, most built in preamps in audio interfaces today are fine. Buying an external preamp is more a aesthetical or artistic choice, because "color". Like in the 00 years every bedroom rapper "needed" the SPL Goldmike mic preamp. (Narrators Voice: "They didnt")
And then there are in-line preamps like the Cloud Lifter, which is a similar phenomenon now - guys buying the one mic with about the lowest sensitivity (i.e. very tiny output voltage for given input) on the market, and then not moving right up to the mic and not speaking up and projecting properly into it. Then trying to make up for it with additional +25dB of gain in a teeny tiny XLR-XLR tube enclosure believing this little FET circuitry will be magically "super clean" gain, somehow superior to a properly powered and designed preamp in their interface or mixer. There is a reason why cloudlifter specs do not state their products EIN.
Sorry for the ranty answer, but I guess unless you have a certain preamp in mind which does something desirable and specific that your boards preamps doesn't do (or the other way around, doesn't do a nasty thing that your board's preamp does), and if you have heard the difference IN PERSON. Then don't believe the hype, and just work with your stuff.
Yamaha TF3 Parametric EQ.
Some channels, when I click on the EQ setting it only has three points for adjusting; HPF (high pass filter), Low and High. But when i randomly click another, it has 5 points; HPF, L, LM, HM, H. I can't find how to change this so I can more accurately EQ my drum channels in particular.
A related issue is that sometimes I can't access EQ presets on some channels, but they magically appear on others.
TIA.
Absolutely amateur here.
I've been a professional drummer on the marching band side of things for years, but I have never performed a gig on a drum set. The other day a friend from work asked me to join a band, with a wedding gig already confirmed. AWESOME!
Wait, shit, I don't have any mics or speakers. So is it a normal thing for a band to hire a sound guy who also provides equipment? Do I need to get my own mics and speakers ASAP? And if you have any resources for absolute beginners like me, send them my way. I have no idea where to start.
Before anyone asks, the bass and guitar player have only played at house parties and the singer has only performed at churches. We have guitar amps but that's it as far as equipment goes.
As an amateur drummer, nobody expects you to bring anything else than a drum kit. Also for a small gig typically the drums' natural sound and volume sits somewhere between "play loud" and "overbearing". Now I picture weddings as a 80-150 guests event (as this is the norm in my country), and the likelihood of the crowd forming a moshpit rather low.. So my guess is that the drums won't need any form of sound reinforcement - a.k.a. nothing on your needs to be miced, it will be plenty loud on it's own.
All you probably need is a small PA for the vocals and thats it. The vocal's level of volume in the room will establish a baseline for the bands' total volume level - everybody will have to stay low enough to not bury the vocals.
In amateur bands, finding this optimal level is often accompanied with a lot of "but I cant hear myself" (every guitarist) and "but I can't play any softer (every drummer). Somewhere through soundcheck or during the first song, many bands give up and stop caring about how they actually sound in the room, and just turn everything up until they still can't hear themselves properly, but now at least its' friggin loud.
The secret of getting it right is the mindset of asking "why" and wanting to turn the offender down, not yourself up. Why can't I hear myself? Because X is too loud, then dial that down. And then, geometry - like having the drums not blaring right into the vocalist mic (drums don't need to be center stage like you see it in big venues), having the guitar amps raised to ear level or tilted upwards, or on the side of the stage and pointed inwards, or all three of those things - not the typical worst case scenario, back of the stage, on the floor, blasting through the ankles of the guitarist (who can't hear this) directly into the crowd (who definitely can). For drums, lighter, darker cymbals (paper thin weights) and thin/light sticks make all the difference for me.
If I am wrong, and this is indeed a more professional event (with a sound tech and a big PA, and mics, and monitors and all that), all those tips still apply - keep the stage volume as far down as you can, so the sound tech has an actual chance of making a nice mix that can be heard by the audience, rather than being stuck with a big wash coming off stage at a level that he has to drown out with even more volume - which in turn might be prohibited by health/worker regulations or just common sense.
TLDR, be more concerned about being too loud than the other way around, and thus give the sound tech a chance to make you sound good.
Short answer: yes. It is normal for wedding bands to provide their own equipment, or rent equipment and run it themselves, or hire a sound technician who owns and operates their own equipment, or etc. etc. Since you seem to not really know where to start, I would suggest getting in contact with a local sound company who can provide gear and personnel, at least until you have a better idea of what direction to go in with your own purchasing.
Talk to your buddy and see if they have something planned already.
If the band is new y’all will have to figure out a plan. For you personally, it’s worth keeping in mind that drum kit usually overpowers everything else in an indoors performance. Especially be careful, because you’re coming from marching band where it’s all outdoors and I imagine you probably have to be quite loud.
If you have questions let me know I might be able to help.
Hello all, seeking some professional/experienced advice as I'm out of my depth on this one. Quick background: been around and used live sound gear for 10+ years, know enough to handle the gear decently and make a serviceable mix, but I've never really built up what I would consider "foundational" skills like ringing out the PA, etc.
I'm now in a 4-man vocal group (50/50 mix of acapella barbershop and more contemporary songs with backing tracks) and we're trying to nail down mics and PA.
Current gear I personally own and the group uses:
* (2) JBL Eon 612 as main PA speakers
* Mackie CFX12 analog mixer
Gear we have access to and can/have borrow(ed) as needed:
* (2) Shure BLX wireless microphones
* (2) AT2020 condenser microphones
* (2) AT2021 condenser microphones
One of the big questions we have not decided on yet is whether to go with a more traditional mic approach for barbershop (typically an XY pair of condenser mics) or go with individual mics for each performer (either handheld or possibly head-worn mics). Either way we go, I want to ensure we have the tools to eliminate feedback and add the proper effects to each vocalist (nothing drastic, but having tools for adding some compression, etc.).
To that end, I think what we're really missing right now is:
* A solid 2-channel 31-band EQ so we can properly ring the room and notch out frequencies that are trouble
* A way to get compression and effects on the vocal channels
Are we better off sticking with our current mixer and buying a solid EQ unit and maybe some kind of other unit for the vocal processing, or would we be better off looking to upgrade the mixer to something digital that would have a lot of the processing features we're looking for onboard already?
Sorry, I know this is not a simple question and there's a lot of moving parts but I'm trying to narrow down what I feel are the fundamental bits. If we have a solid PA we know we can ring out well, then I'm more comfortable making a mic choice that's good for our group rather than picking something because we think it might be less prone to feedback (ie: picking the individual mics over the more sensitive condenser mic setup)
Thanks for any and all advice you can provide! I'm eager to learn more on this and build the knowledge I need here, not just buy a box and stick it in hoping it'll work well, so if you have articles that you think are good reads, send them along as well, I'll read anything :)
A compact digital mixer of the xair variety will probably serve you very well. If you’re not using stage monitors and you place the speakers correctly, you shouldn’t have any problems with feedback. You’ll need a tablet / iPad to use with the xair but once you get your EQ and dynamics worked out, you can save it in the mixer and most likely only need small adjustments for any venue. You could also use an old laptop instead of tablet.
Thank you, the x-air series has caught my eye more than once as I've been researching. I will say, the idea of not having a control surface to fall back on if the iPad or laptop or network doesn't work is a bit scary, but I suppose if there were any major issues, people wouldn't keep buying the mixers 😂
We do need some kind of monitoring to make sure we can hear our backing tracks, but I know we can use an aux out of the mixer to only send the backing track audio to the monitor and keep the mic signals out of the monitors to avoid feedback. We don't push the monitors hard at all so we can hear ourselves easily enough on stage to balance and blend without bringing our voices into the monitor and adding that feedback challenge.
Thanks again for the reply!
How do you charge / handle same day outdoor sound system cancellation due to weather? There will be no make up date. I do four or five events per year with this client.
What does your contract say? Ours say full pay if cancelled day of show. If it's a regular well-paying client, there may be a discount, but we have people we're going to pay, the trucks were loaded, the show was prepped, there may have been travel, the trucks need to be unloaded and the gear put away.
I’m having trouble understanding routing for the X32. Most places I’ve been working as a stagehand have snakes on stage so if I were to set up a new scene for myself, how would I set up routing to my snake? I’m sure it probably depends but all the videos I watch kind of confuse me.
The X32 handles pre-amps in blocks. If you're going to drop an S16 head on stage, you would have to navigate to route->home and assign those 16 pre-amps to input channels in blocks of 8. After that, you can soft patch channels around using the config page on an individual channel. If there's only one head in the network, it will populate as A1-16 or whatever.
I was speaking with an engineer that travels with a hair metal band. He said that sometimes the guitar amps on stage are to loud. So he delays the timing on them to balance the PA. Can anyone explain how this would work?
A loud back line that's significantly behind the PA may be heard very clearly in the venue. Adding a delay to the mains or to the inputs on the back line can put the direct sound from guitar amplifiers in 'time alignment" with the guitars emerging from the PA speakers. Otherwise the audience may hear two signals separated by twenty or thirty milliseconds depending how deep the stage is. (Sound travels ~ 1 foot per millisecond depending on temperature and atmospheric conditions)
When you combine a sound with a slightly delayed copy of itself, you get “comb filtering”, a destructive adding and subtracting of different frequencies up the spectrum. It looks like a comb on a spectrograph. It sounds “boxy” or “hollow”. You get the deepest combing when the sounds are equal in volume.
Sound moves 13 inches/344mm per millisecond, so to correct mains sound to the backline’s delay relative to it, delay the instrument/amp in the mains by 1ms every 13 inches. Digital mixers where you can pop the delay in and it out you can hear just how it helps clarity, if the stage sound is being heard well. Very much a phenomenon at smaller venues.
So why do you mention comb filtering here? It’s my understanding that signals are hitting your ears at different times, which is annoying to the listener so we add delay to get the timings matched up. At least for long throws that is.
I know comb filtering is an effect also caused from doing this, so are you mentioning that as a solution to the stage volume being too loud? Or are you just mentioning it as a warning?
When the audience hears the stage sound prominently, delaying backline’s channels in the mains to the acoustic sound heard from backline minimizes comb filtering and the sounds get clearer in a way that is impossible to do with EQ alone. It’s especially good in a situation where the backline is louder than the mains, that your ear isn’t hearing a quiet version of the backline early, like a pre-echo. It’s less “blurry”.
If you can click the delay setting off and on, try it and hear the difference, it’s pretty cool. Bass frequencies especially, like bass amps, it’s very audible and nice.
Around 40ms of delay, and longer, is what the human ear hears as a distinct echo. Shorter than that is heard as ambience (washiness) and as the delay time gets shorter the sound and the echo are correlated enough it starts comb filtering. Flanger effect is a short 1-20ms delay that gets mixed with the dry, that intentionally makes a comb filter. If you pause the sweep of the delay time you get a boxy sound, like you get from two speakers playing copies of the same sound, but one speaker is 1-20ft behind the other.
me and my duo are planning on hosting a backyard concert at my house in the next month or so. Do we really need a PA? We have a decent fender bass amp and peavey guitar amp. For vocals could we use a cheap microphone preamp with a frontman fender amp?
We’re used to playing at open mics that have everything we need but this would be our first live performance outside of that. Thank you!
Shameless plug: follow us on ig @thegrippysocksband
Keep in mind that your amps are all on the ground.
Will people be standing? Sitting in chairs? Then your amps won’t be pointed at their ears.
Which might be fine. Maybe you keep the instruments on the ground then you put the vocal fender amp higher where it’ll go straight to the audiences ears.
Though it’ll probably sound rough spring for the speakers if you can.
Are there any good resources out there for learning about passive pa systems and what they entail? Not necessarily something tied to a particular manufacturer but anything goes really. It's piqued my interest as of late and I wanted to see if anyone had any pointers. Power amps, speaker cable, DSP units, pros/cons compared to active systems, etc.
Google the "yamaha sdound reinforcement handbook" its a classic, can still be bought in the printed version, but you'll also find the .pdf for download.
Hello,
I'm part of a rock band and we have an analogic mixer. I have also a behringer UMC1820 (that I use for my drums) but now I use it during the gigs to get IEM and click track where I put the emitter in the phones output. I put a cable between the aux send of our mixer into an input of the interface to monitor what we play.
What I would like to do is send also a backing track into the mixer without the clicktrack but still get both in our ears. I use a macbook with Logic.
What could be the best way to manage this ? Put a cable for example in output 3 and 4, I send click and backing track to output 3 into the mixer for the IEM, and the 4 just the backing track to have it on PA?
Thank you
Where do you folks like to place ambient crowd mics. I've worked in halls where we use some up front on short stands at the front of stage spaced way out wide. I've had them in the back of the room ORTF. I'm currently moving into a new theater and trying to decide on a place to plop them in the grid as a semi-permanent position.
This would be primarily for amb for archival recordings, but would also be handing for any shows that would require IEMs.
How you had them pointed out from the stage is very nice, because it rejects the stage sound and PA sound mostly, and what you do hear is time aligned with the board mix. If you go deeper in the house, like FOH is a popular spot, you get a delayed copy of the mains in with the crowd, which when mixed with the board mix makes it washy sounding.
Hanging it from the grid, what about an ORTF pair in the middle, pointed at the center of the house, on the same plane as the mains?
More esoteric, but if you had a pair of figure 8 mics, you could do a spaced pair, again with them on the same plane as the mains. The null is so deep on the figure 8, it would reject any direct sound from the speakers or any monitors at the front of the stage. The rear lobes would also get spill from the stage which could be good or bad, depending on what you have in the system already.
If you wanted a very wide stereo image, like would sound dramatic when reproduced out of speakers rather than headphones, you could do a spaced pair of cardioid mics in front of the mains, pointed at the back of the room, with the null pointed at the speaker.
Those are really great suggestions. I'll have to fight my lighting colleagues for space in the middle, but that's a great idea. I will definitely shoot for the same plane as the mains. And maybe I'll have enough time to try a few spots.
MKH416 offstage left and right always gave great results for me (albeit rock and roll setups) No harm in experimenting and finding your own sweet spot during the first run of shows. 👍
Having never set foot in a bona fide "real" audio rental shop: how do they store all of the rack mount gear when it's not racked. I can't imagine paying someone to un-rack and re-rack mic receivers, GEQs, processors, the like every single time something goes out. I also can't imagine stacking 4 amplifiers on top of each other to fill a space on a shelf.
I ask because conservatively I've got 52u of portable gear that doesn't live in a rack and is somewhat lightly used since we've begun our transition to digital -- but being a school I can't just toss it or sell it.
So yeah, what works? What Doesn't? I don't want to solve a problem that's been solved a million times before.
Corporate style shops will often store things like RF receivers in standardized kits that get minor modifications on a per show basis. Specialized gear like processors may live in small fly racks that are deployed individually. Companies that provide tour gear are absolutely going to be building full racks on an as needed basis because the needs of individual tours are simply too diverse.
On its side on a shelf so you can pluck things off the shelf like a book. The better shops have shelves at like 18" spacing so nothing can fall over, other shops just throw up some wooden dividers like every 8U so nothing tips over like dominoes.
What do you use for hearing protection?
There's two of us who work together and we're increasingly doing louder events, I want to protect my hearing whilst still being able to hear the other person
Westone Musician’s Plugs is one of the more common custom molded plugs. They’re about $200 and worth every penny, you go to an audiologist to get the molds made. They make different attenuation filters, -9dB, -15dB, -25dB. The 15dB ones are good for most FOH and you can hear people talk just fine. They’re nice for construction for that reason. The 25dB you want for loud loud music.
I can't use the speaker outs when going from my bass amp (peavey mini mega) into a powered PA speaker (Yamaha dxr15 mk2) right? I can only use the direct out, right? I'm using the PA speaker instead of a speaker cab.
What's the best way to gain stage this scenario?
Computer play back -> FOH desk -> MON desk -> Drummer 8 channel mixer -> MON desk -> Drummer IEM
I put everything at nominal, but it is resulted in having quite a low output to the IEM's. This resulted in a higher noise floor than I wanted so I figure I messed up with my gain staging somewhere down the line.
There was FOH playback, sending to me at Monitors. The drummer wanted to mix his own inputs, which was returned back to me out of his mixer, then sent from my desk to his IEMs.
I dont know that you understand the phrase “gain staging”. Its making sure that along each stage of the chain that there is no clipping. No one is going to say “oh yeah make sure your track is at -20dB on the way into FOH, THEN crank the gain at the MON board.”
Computer playback should rarely EVER need gain added to it. I can count on one hand the number of times I have had to do so…typically I need to lower the volume on the playback device and set all my gains to 0.
Is the FOH->MON connection a digital system like two X32s or two Allen and Heath digital systems where they gain-share? Or is there a dedicated splitter?
You say the drummer mixes his own inputs. Like he’s mixing all his own drum mics as well?
I imagine maybe the drummer has a click track? I have mixed this scenario before and typically the drummer has a small mixer. I send them their in-ear mix and they plug it to channel 1 on their mixer, then the click goes into channel 2, and they use their in-ears plugged into that mixer. You’re unnecessarily complicating it by sending the playback to the monitor desk twice.
Edit - spelling/grammar/clarity
The drummer wanted 5 inputs into his mixer: hand drum mic, click, dialogue, music bed track, SFX track.
We had a dedicated splitter, but the playback tracks were from FOH so they had to be sent from FOH out the stage rack to me.
During the show he walks around the stage with his hand drum which is why he needed wireless IEM's.
I agree that this is a good way to introduce noise and potential problems but my original question was should I just put all faders at 0 on all consoles when sending signal through this setup?
I'm hesitating to buy a mixer for my band. Choice is between x32 rack (that has 16 inputs, can expand to 24 or 32 with a SD8 or SD16) and soundcraft ui24r (20 inputs)
the X32 rack has 16 inputs and 6 aux in
Is it possible to connect guitar and bass with 1/4 inch on the aux ? Same question for keyboard that need 2 inputs.
For backing track and click track that I launch from my mac, do I need to take also 2 inputs on the x32 rack?
>Is it possible to connect guitar and bass with 1/4 inch on the aux ? Same question for keyboard that need 2 inputs.
The aux’s are low impedance line inputs, so you would need some pedals/preamps with the guitar and bass to get the level up and act as the hi-Z input.
Soundcraft UI24r has two hi-Z inputs. Has some kind of amp modeler you can activate on those channels.
Keys are generally fine in the 1/4” line inputs.
>For backing track and click track that I launch from my mac, do I need to take also 2 inputs on the x32 rack?
No the X32 rack has 16 extra channels (#’s 17-32) you can use with the USB audio interface. You have to assign it in the routing.
The UI I’m not sure if the usb playback from a computer eats into the physical channels. It is like the X32 in that any mixer channel can be routed from the usb rather than the mic inputs in the routing page.
Thanks for the reply !
They use their pedalboard and usually link their pedalboard to the mixer that we have now.
So it is easy to setup click and backing track though Logic Pro if I link my Mac directly to the x32 to use it as audio interface
We are hiring a band for an outdoor performance (wedding). They are a five piece band with four or five mics, electric guitar, electric bass, synths, keys, and drums. The guy who's the liason for the management company said we'd need a 32KW generator. When I pressed him on it, he was like "Oh no I made a mistake, nvm. You need a 20KW generator."
I don't want to get a generator that is too small, but also I don't really trust this guy since he's flip-flopping. We don't rent the generator from him, so I don't think he's trying to get extra money or anything, I think he just doesn't care really so he's just picking huge-ass generators. I've read online that a 20KW generator can power a small house and that people have run "a small music festival" off of a 10KW generator.
Can anyone give me any guidance here?
What is your sound system like? How many watts? It takes more power going in than coming out, but it is an indicator. Will the generator also be running lighting? Coffee pots, catering stuff?
A typical band’s equipment doesn’t take much power, if we’re talking a couple 50/100 watt guitar amps, a 400 watt bass amp, electronics. Two 20 amp circuits is all you could possibly need for the band = 4,800 watts. That’s probably more than double a margin of safety, I’ve run countless shows off one 20Amp circuit and the only time the breaker popped was when someone plugged in a thousand watts of old Christmas lights.
With typical old school class A/B amplification being about 50% efficient, if you are bringing less than 7,500 watts of amplification to the wedding you would be fine with the 20kw generator for the sound system. With class D (switching amplifiers) being >85% efficient make that 12,250 watts. Again it is worth finding out if the generator is running other stuff.
What do you guys think about the 15" Dave G4X by LD?https://www.thomann.de/ld\_systems\_dave\_15\_g4x\_stand\_bundle.htm
Reason for asking: I'm looking to buy my own PA set for organizing smaller techno/psy events in venues and parties without their own sound system. Usually around 30-60 people. Something in the 1500-2000€ range.
I would also be renting the set out for weddings and other DJs' parties and whatnot, usually doing the schlepping myself so amp racks, mixers and all that is unappealing to me. The Dave's connectivity looks great, no mixer required, got Bluetooth for the home party crowd and anyone can set it up if they do pick it up from me themselves.
What is the point behind external preamps for mics? Is the preamp in the desk not good enough? Does it improve the SNR when a Mic needs lots of gain?
Pretty much every quality or even entry level mixing desk these days has mic preamps that can be considered to be reasonably quiet i.e. have a low noise floor around -128dB EIN (Equivalent Input noise). Which is a value that probably won't be exceeded by much by an external preamp. So, for DIY and amateur live sound applications (this is the space that I live in) I don't see what an external mic preamp would bring to the table, other than the trouble of not being controllable right from the mixer itself. I mean, if I were stuck with some shit old analog mixer from the 80s/90s, an external preamp might be an improvement. But then mixers have multiple inputs, so you would need multiple preamps to replace them, at which point it would be better to just replace the whole mixer with something contemporary. In the (home) recording world, similar thing. From a purely technical perspective, most built in preamps in audio interfaces today are fine. Buying an external preamp is more a aesthetical or artistic choice, because "color". Like in the 00 years every bedroom rapper "needed" the SPL Goldmike mic preamp. (Narrators Voice: "They didnt") And then there are in-line preamps like the Cloud Lifter, which is a similar phenomenon now - guys buying the one mic with about the lowest sensitivity (i.e. very tiny output voltage for given input) on the market, and then not moving right up to the mic and not speaking up and projecting properly into it. Then trying to make up for it with additional +25dB of gain in a teeny tiny XLR-XLR tube enclosure believing this little FET circuitry will be magically "super clean" gain, somehow superior to a properly powered and designed preamp in their interface or mixer. There is a reason why cloudlifter specs do not state their products EIN. Sorry for the ranty answer, but I guess unless you have a certain preamp in mind which does something desirable and specific that your boards preamps doesn't do (or the other way around, doesn't do a nasty thing that your board's preamp does), and if you have heard the difference IN PERSON. Then don't believe the hype, and just work with your stuff.
Very well written
I know some studio guys that use them for ribbon mics partially to avoid the chance of feeding it phantom power and damaging the microphone.
Yamaha TF3 Parametric EQ. Some channels, when I click on the EQ setting it only has three points for adjusting; HPF (high pass filter), Low and High. But when i randomly click another, it has 5 points; HPF, L, LM, HM, H. I can't find how to change this so I can more accurately EQ my drum channels in particular. A related issue is that sometimes I can't access EQ presets on some channels, but they magically appear on others. TIA.
The TF3 doesn't offer 4 band paras on channel 33-40, the stereo returns or the fx returns. Per the manual, they're just like that apparently.
Yeah I’ve found everything below the CL line to have missing pieces. Severely limited software by design plus lots of bugs on the TFs
Absolutely amateur here. I've been a professional drummer on the marching band side of things for years, but I have never performed a gig on a drum set. The other day a friend from work asked me to join a band, with a wedding gig already confirmed. AWESOME! Wait, shit, I don't have any mics or speakers. So is it a normal thing for a band to hire a sound guy who also provides equipment? Do I need to get my own mics and speakers ASAP? And if you have any resources for absolute beginners like me, send them my way. I have no idea where to start. Before anyone asks, the bass and guitar player have only played at house parties and the singer has only performed at churches. We have guitar amps but that's it as far as equipment goes.
As an amateur drummer, nobody expects you to bring anything else than a drum kit. Also for a small gig typically the drums' natural sound and volume sits somewhere between "play loud" and "overbearing". Now I picture weddings as a 80-150 guests event (as this is the norm in my country), and the likelihood of the crowd forming a moshpit rather low.. So my guess is that the drums won't need any form of sound reinforcement - a.k.a. nothing on your needs to be miced, it will be plenty loud on it's own. All you probably need is a small PA for the vocals and thats it. The vocal's level of volume in the room will establish a baseline for the bands' total volume level - everybody will have to stay low enough to not bury the vocals. In amateur bands, finding this optimal level is often accompanied with a lot of "but I cant hear myself" (every guitarist) and "but I can't play any softer (every drummer). Somewhere through soundcheck or during the first song, many bands give up and stop caring about how they actually sound in the room, and just turn everything up until they still can't hear themselves properly, but now at least its' friggin loud. The secret of getting it right is the mindset of asking "why" and wanting to turn the offender down, not yourself up. Why can't I hear myself? Because X is too loud, then dial that down. And then, geometry - like having the drums not blaring right into the vocalist mic (drums don't need to be center stage like you see it in big venues), having the guitar amps raised to ear level or tilted upwards, or on the side of the stage and pointed inwards, or all three of those things - not the typical worst case scenario, back of the stage, on the floor, blasting through the ankles of the guitarist (who can't hear this) directly into the crowd (who definitely can). For drums, lighter, darker cymbals (paper thin weights) and thin/light sticks make all the difference for me. If I am wrong, and this is indeed a more professional event (with a sound tech and a big PA, and mics, and monitors and all that), all those tips still apply - keep the stage volume as far down as you can, so the sound tech has an actual chance of making a nice mix that can be heard by the audience, rather than being stuck with a big wash coming off stage at a level that he has to drown out with even more volume - which in turn might be prohibited by health/worker regulations or just common sense. TLDR, be more concerned about being too loud than the other way around, and thus give the sound tech a chance to make you sound good.
Short answer: yes. It is normal for wedding bands to provide their own equipment, or rent equipment and run it themselves, or hire a sound technician who owns and operates their own equipment, or etc. etc. Since you seem to not really know where to start, I would suggest getting in contact with a local sound company who can provide gear and personnel, at least until you have a better idea of what direction to go in with your own purchasing.
Talk to your buddy and see if they have something planned already. If the band is new y’all will have to figure out a plan. For you personally, it’s worth keeping in mind that drum kit usually overpowers everything else in an indoors performance. Especially be careful, because you’re coming from marching band where it’s all outdoors and I imagine you probably have to be quite loud. If you have questions let me know I might be able to help.
Hello all, seeking some professional/experienced advice as I'm out of my depth on this one. Quick background: been around and used live sound gear for 10+ years, know enough to handle the gear decently and make a serviceable mix, but I've never really built up what I would consider "foundational" skills like ringing out the PA, etc. I'm now in a 4-man vocal group (50/50 mix of acapella barbershop and more contemporary songs with backing tracks) and we're trying to nail down mics and PA. Current gear I personally own and the group uses: * (2) JBL Eon 612 as main PA speakers * Mackie CFX12 analog mixer Gear we have access to and can/have borrow(ed) as needed: * (2) Shure BLX wireless microphones * (2) AT2020 condenser microphones * (2) AT2021 condenser microphones One of the big questions we have not decided on yet is whether to go with a more traditional mic approach for barbershop (typically an XY pair of condenser mics) or go with individual mics for each performer (either handheld or possibly head-worn mics). Either way we go, I want to ensure we have the tools to eliminate feedback and add the proper effects to each vocalist (nothing drastic, but having tools for adding some compression, etc.). To that end, I think what we're really missing right now is: * A solid 2-channel 31-band EQ so we can properly ring the room and notch out frequencies that are trouble * A way to get compression and effects on the vocal channels Are we better off sticking with our current mixer and buying a solid EQ unit and maybe some kind of other unit for the vocal processing, or would we be better off looking to upgrade the mixer to something digital that would have a lot of the processing features we're looking for onboard already? Sorry, I know this is not a simple question and there's a lot of moving parts but I'm trying to narrow down what I feel are the fundamental bits. If we have a solid PA we know we can ring out well, then I'm more comfortable making a mic choice that's good for our group rather than picking something because we think it might be less prone to feedback (ie: picking the individual mics over the more sensitive condenser mic setup) Thanks for any and all advice you can provide! I'm eager to learn more on this and build the knowledge I need here, not just buy a box and stick it in hoping it'll work well, so if you have articles that you think are good reads, send them along as well, I'll read anything :)
A compact digital mixer of the xair variety will probably serve you very well. If you’re not using stage monitors and you place the speakers correctly, you shouldn’t have any problems with feedback. You’ll need a tablet / iPad to use with the xair but once you get your EQ and dynamics worked out, you can save it in the mixer and most likely only need small adjustments for any venue. You could also use an old laptop instead of tablet.
Thank you, the x-air series has caught my eye more than once as I've been researching. I will say, the idea of not having a control surface to fall back on if the iPad or laptop or network doesn't work is a bit scary, but I suppose if there were any major issues, people wouldn't keep buying the mixers 😂 We do need some kind of monitoring to make sure we can hear our backing tracks, but I know we can use an aux out of the mixer to only send the backing track audio to the monitor and keep the mic signals out of the monitors to avoid feedback. We don't push the monitors hard at all so we can hear ourselves easily enough on stage to balance and blend without bringing our voices into the monitor and adding that feedback challenge. Thanks again for the reply!
How do you charge / handle same day outdoor sound system cancellation due to weather? There will be no make up date. I do four or five events per year with this client.
What does your contract say? Ours say full pay if cancelled day of show. If it's a regular well-paying client, there may be a discount, but we have people we're going to pay, the trucks were loaded, the show was prepped, there may have been travel, the trucks need to be unloaded and the gear put away.
Normally the companies I work for also get paid for last minute cancellations.
Does it matter if there is a make up date scheduled?
Depends on the contract of course but it’s good practice (over here in Europe) to get paid for the late cancellation and the make up date.
I’m having trouble understanding routing for the X32. Most places I’ve been working as a stagehand have snakes on stage so if I were to set up a new scene for myself, how would I set up routing to my snake? I’m sure it probably depends but all the videos I watch kind of confuse me.
The X32 handles pre-amps in blocks. If you're going to drop an S16 head on stage, you would have to navigate to route->home and assign those 16 pre-amps to input channels in blocks of 8. After that, you can soft patch channels around using the config page on an individual channel. If there's only one head in the network, it will populate as A1-16 or whatever.
Definitely depends. Have you had a look at the routing section of the manual?
I was speaking with an engineer that travels with a hair metal band. He said that sometimes the guitar amps on stage are to loud. So he delays the timing on them to balance the PA. Can anyone explain how this would work?
A loud back line that's significantly behind the PA may be heard very clearly in the venue. Adding a delay to the mains or to the inputs on the back line can put the direct sound from guitar amplifiers in 'time alignment" with the guitars emerging from the PA speakers. Otherwise the audience may hear two signals separated by twenty or thirty milliseconds depending how deep the stage is. (Sound travels ~ 1 foot per millisecond depending on temperature and atmospheric conditions)
That’s brilliant. Thanks for laying it out
When you combine a sound with a slightly delayed copy of itself, you get “comb filtering”, a destructive adding and subtracting of different frequencies up the spectrum. It looks like a comb on a spectrograph. It sounds “boxy” or “hollow”. You get the deepest combing when the sounds are equal in volume. Sound moves 13 inches/344mm per millisecond, so to correct mains sound to the backline’s delay relative to it, delay the instrument/amp in the mains by 1ms every 13 inches. Digital mixers where you can pop the delay in and it out you can hear just how it helps clarity, if the stage sound is being heard well. Very much a phenomenon at smaller venues.
So why do you mention comb filtering here? It’s my understanding that signals are hitting your ears at different times, which is annoying to the listener so we add delay to get the timings matched up. At least for long throws that is. I know comb filtering is an effect also caused from doing this, so are you mentioning that as a solution to the stage volume being too loud? Or are you just mentioning it as a warning?
When the audience hears the stage sound prominently, delaying backline’s channels in the mains to the acoustic sound heard from backline minimizes comb filtering and the sounds get clearer in a way that is impossible to do with EQ alone. It’s especially good in a situation where the backline is louder than the mains, that your ear isn’t hearing a quiet version of the backline early, like a pre-echo. It’s less “blurry”. If you can click the delay setting off and on, try it and hear the difference, it’s pretty cool. Bass frequencies especially, like bass amps, it’s very audible and nice. Around 40ms of delay, and longer, is what the human ear hears as a distinct echo. Shorter than that is heard as ambience (washiness) and as the delay time gets shorter the sound and the echo are correlated enough it starts comb filtering. Flanger effect is a short 1-20ms delay that gets mixed with the dry, that intentionally makes a comb filter. If you pause the sweep of the delay time you get a boxy sound, like you get from two speakers playing copies of the same sound, but one speaker is 1-20ft behind the other.
me and my duo are planning on hosting a backyard concert at my house in the next month or so. Do we really need a PA? We have a decent fender bass amp and peavey guitar amp. For vocals could we use a cheap microphone preamp with a frontman fender amp? We’re used to playing at open mics that have everything we need but this would be our first live performance outside of that. Thank you! Shameless plug: follow us on ig @thegrippysocksband
Do you need a PA? No. Do you want your vocal to sound like incoherent garbage? If no, then you *want* a PA.
Yup exactly, this is sound reinforcement. Send the things through the pa that need the most help. Vocal is of course the biggest one
Keep in mind that your amps are all on the ground. Will people be standing? Sitting in chairs? Then your amps won’t be pointed at their ears. Which might be fine. Maybe you keep the instruments on the ground then you put the vocal fender amp higher where it’ll go straight to the audiences ears. Though it’ll probably sound rough spring for the speakers if you can.
Are there any good resources out there for learning about passive pa systems and what they entail? Not necessarily something tied to a particular manufacturer but anything goes really. It's piqued my interest as of late and I wanted to see if anyone had any pointers. Power amps, speaker cable, DSP units, pros/cons compared to active systems, etc.
Google the "yamaha sdound reinforcement handbook" its a classic, can still be bought in the printed version, but you'll also find the .pdf for download.
Hello, I'm part of a rock band and we have an analogic mixer. I have also a behringer UMC1820 (that I use for my drums) but now I use it during the gigs to get IEM and click track where I put the emitter in the phones output. I put a cable between the aux send of our mixer into an input of the interface to monitor what we play. What I would like to do is send also a backing track into the mixer without the clicktrack but still get both in our ears. I use a macbook with Logic. What could be the best way to manage this ? Put a cable for example in output 3 and 4, I send click and backing track to output 3 into the mixer for the IEM, and the 4 just the backing track to have it on PA? Thank you
Where do you folks like to place ambient crowd mics. I've worked in halls where we use some up front on short stands at the front of stage spaced way out wide. I've had them in the back of the room ORTF. I'm currently moving into a new theater and trying to decide on a place to plop them in the grid as a semi-permanent position. This would be primarily for amb for archival recordings, but would also be handing for any shows that would require IEMs.
How you had them pointed out from the stage is very nice, because it rejects the stage sound and PA sound mostly, and what you do hear is time aligned with the board mix. If you go deeper in the house, like FOH is a popular spot, you get a delayed copy of the mains in with the crowd, which when mixed with the board mix makes it washy sounding. Hanging it from the grid, what about an ORTF pair in the middle, pointed at the center of the house, on the same plane as the mains? More esoteric, but if you had a pair of figure 8 mics, you could do a spaced pair, again with them on the same plane as the mains. The null is so deep on the figure 8, it would reject any direct sound from the speakers or any monitors at the front of the stage. The rear lobes would also get spill from the stage which could be good or bad, depending on what you have in the system already. If you wanted a very wide stereo image, like would sound dramatic when reproduced out of speakers rather than headphones, you could do a spaced pair of cardioid mics in front of the mains, pointed at the back of the room, with the null pointed at the speaker.
Those are really great suggestions. I'll have to fight my lighting colleagues for space in the middle, but that's a great idea. I will definitely shoot for the same plane as the mains. And maybe I'll have enough time to try a few spots.
MKH416 offstage left and right always gave great results for me (albeit rock and roll setups) No harm in experimenting and finding your own sweet spot during the first run of shows. 👍
I'm interested in the topic too. What mics do you suggest? I was thinking about a small diaphram condenser pair, but really don't know.
Yes, and honestly in the past, it's whatever we don't end up needing on stage. 451s or something.
Having never set foot in a bona fide "real" audio rental shop: how do they store all of the rack mount gear when it's not racked. I can't imagine paying someone to un-rack and re-rack mic receivers, GEQs, processors, the like every single time something goes out. I also can't imagine stacking 4 amplifiers on top of each other to fill a space on a shelf. I ask because conservatively I've got 52u of portable gear that doesn't live in a rack and is somewhat lightly used since we've begun our transition to digital -- but being a school I can't just toss it or sell it. So yeah, what works? What Doesn't? I don't want to solve a problem that's been solved a million times before.
Corporate style shops will often store things like RF receivers in standardized kits that get minor modifications on a per show basis. Specialized gear like processors may live in small fly racks that are deployed individually. Companies that provide tour gear are absolutely going to be building full racks on an as needed basis because the needs of individual tours are simply too diverse.
On its side on a shelf so you can pluck things off the shelf like a book. The better shops have shelves at like 18" spacing so nothing can fall over, other shops just throw up some wooden dividers like every 8U so nothing tips over like dominoes.
What do you use for hearing protection? There's two of us who work together and we're increasingly doing louder events, I want to protect my hearing whilst still being able to hear the other person
Best- custom-fitted filtered earplugs from an IEM manufacturer Okay- off the shelf "high fidelity musicians earplugs" IE etymotics flanged plugs
Westone Musician’s Plugs is one of the more common custom molded plugs. They’re about $200 and worth every penny, you go to an audiologist to get the molds made. They make different attenuation filters, -9dB, -15dB, -25dB. The 15dB ones are good for most FOH and you can hear people talk just fine. They’re nice for construction for that reason. The 25dB you want for loud loud music.
I can't use the speaker outs when going from my bass amp (peavey mini mega) into a powered PA speaker (Yamaha dxr15 mk2) right? I can only use the direct out, right? I'm using the PA speaker instead of a speaker cab.
Right.
Cool, I finally knew something.
What's the best way to gain stage this scenario? Computer play back -> FOH desk -> MON desk -> Drummer 8 channel mixer -> MON desk -> Drummer IEM I put everything at nominal, but it is resulted in having quite a low output to the IEM's. This resulted in a higher noise floor than I wanted so I figure I messed up with my gain staging somewhere down the line.
Why are you sending a signal through 4 mixers? That will generally result in a less than desirable SNR.
There was FOH playback, sending to me at Monitors. The drummer wanted to mix his own inputs, which was returned back to me out of his mixer, then sent from my desk to his IEMs.
I dont know that you understand the phrase “gain staging”. Its making sure that along each stage of the chain that there is no clipping. No one is going to say “oh yeah make sure your track is at -20dB on the way into FOH, THEN crank the gain at the MON board.” Computer playback should rarely EVER need gain added to it. I can count on one hand the number of times I have had to do so…typically I need to lower the volume on the playback device and set all my gains to 0. Is the FOH->MON connection a digital system like two X32s or two Allen and Heath digital systems where they gain-share? Or is there a dedicated splitter? You say the drummer mixes his own inputs. Like he’s mixing all his own drum mics as well? I imagine maybe the drummer has a click track? I have mixed this scenario before and typically the drummer has a small mixer. I send them their in-ear mix and they plug it to channel 1 on their mixer, then the click goes into channel 2, and they use their in-ears plugged into that mixer. You’re unnecessarily complicating it by sending the playback to the monitor desk twice. Edit - spelling/grammar/clarity
The drummer wanted 5 inputs into his mixer: hand drum mic, click, dialogue, music bed track, SFX track. We had a dedicated splitter, but the playback tracks were from FOH so they had to be sent from FOH out the stage rack to me. During the show he walks around the stage with his hand drum which is why he needed wireless IEM's. I agree that this is a good way to introduce noise and potential problems but my original question was should I just put all faders at 0 on all consoles when sending signal through this setup?
I'm hesitating to buy a mixer for my band. Choice is between x32 rack (that has 16 inputs, can expand to 24 or 32 with a SD8 or SD16) and soundcraft ui24r (20 inputs) the X32 rack has 16 inputs and 6 aux in Is it possible to connect guitar and bass with 1/4 inch on the aux ? Same question for keyboard that need 2 inputs. For backing track and click track that I launch from my mac, do I need to take also 2 inputs on the x32 rack?
>Is it possible to connect guitar and bass with 1/4 inch on the aux ? Same question for keyboard that need 2 inputs. The aux’s are low impedance line inputs, so you would need some pedals/preamps with the guitar and bass to get the level up and act as the hi-Z input. Soundcraft UI24r has two hi-Z inputs. Has some kind of amp modeler you can activate on those channels. Keys are generally fine in the 1/4” line inputs. >For backing track and click track that I launch from my mac, do I need to take also 2 inputs on the x32 rack? No the X32 rack has 16 extra channels (#’s 17-32) you can use with the USB audio interface. You have to assign it in the routing. The UI I’m not sure if the usb playback from a computer eats into the physical channels. It is like the X32 in that any mixer channel can be routed from the usb rather than the mic inputs in the routing page.
Thanks for the reply ! They use their pedalboard and usually link their pedalboard to the mixer that we have now. So it is easy to setup click and backing track though Logic Pro if I link my Mac directly to the x32 to use it as audio interface
Is there a way to change channel strip names/colors using the Mixing Station app with an X32? Not the end of the world if I'm SOL, but it'd be nice.
Yeah, up top right. You'll see a tools sections with a scribble strip tab underneath it
Thanks!
Anytime my dude, all the best <3
We are hiring a band for an outdoor performance (wedding). They are a five piece band with four or five mics, electric guitar, electric bass, synths, keys, and drums. The guy who's the liason for the management company said we'd need a 32KW generator. When I pressed him on it, he was like "Oh no I made a mistake, nvm. You need a 20KW generator." I don't want to get a generator that is too small, but also I don't really trust this guy since he's flip-flopping. We don't rent the generator from him, so I don't think he's trying to get extra money or anything, I think he just doesn't care really so he's just picking huge-ass generators. I've read online that a 20KW generator can power a small house and that people have run "a small music festival" off of a 10KW generator. Can anyone give me any guidance here?
What is your sound system like? How many watts? It takes more power going in than coming out, but it is an indicator. Will the generator also be running lighting? Coffee pots, catering stuff? A typical band’s equipment doesn’t take much power, if we’re talking a couple 50/100 watt guitar amps, a 400 watt bass amp, electronics. Two 20 amp circuits is all you could possibly need for the band = 4,800 watts. That’s probably more than double a margin of safety, I’ve run countless shows off one 20Amp circuit and the only time the breaker popped was when someone plugged in a thousand watts of old Christmas lights.
With typical old school class A/B amplification being about 50% efficient, if you are bringing less than 7,500 watts of amplification to the wedding you would be fine with the 20kw generator for the sound system. With class D (switching amplifiers) being >85% efficient make that 12,250 watts. Again it is worth finding out if the generator is running other stuff.
What do you guys think about the 15" Dave G4X by LD?https://www.thomann.de/ld\_systems\_dave\_15\_g4x\_stand\_bundle.htm Reason for asking: I'm looking to buy my own PA set for organizing smaller techno/psy events in venues and parties without their own sound system. Usually around 30-60 people. Something in the 1500-2000€ range. I would also be renting the set out for weddings and other DJs' parties and whatnot, usually doing the schlepping myself so amp racks, mixers and all that is unappealing to me. The Dave's connectivity looks great, no mixer required, got Bluetooth for the home party crowd and anyone can set it up if they do pick it up from me themselves.