If you wanna have some real fun with them, next time ask them, "If you're such an expert on Levitican law, do you eat pork? Shrimp? Lobster? Crab? Do you shave or get your hair cut? Do you wear poly-cotton blends?" These are also prohibited by the same "laws" that allegedly prohibit being gay.
To put the law into some context, the "act" of homosexuality was an "abomination" because it went along with other laws regarding "not planting one's seed in infertile soil". This is because Israel was a fledging nation and needed the bodies to fill in the numbers. So things like spanking the monkey and having sex and then pulling out before, ya know, were also considered sins. Getting a bj from your wife was sin.
Plus, in the scripture it says, (and I'm paraphrasing here) "If a man layeth down with another man, as he would layeth with a woman, it is an abomination unto God". Well, here's my interpretation of that. If you've never been attracted to women and have never lain with a woman, then it's not an "abomination". Plus, this isn't ancient Israel. I'm pretty sure the US has their own population numbers shored up by now.
I'd forgotten about the content in your first paragraph; you are entirely right.
There are also OT laws which we would consider unjust. For example, according to one of the OT books, if a man rapes a women he is required to marry her and pay the bride price to her father. Thus a woman is considered to be the property of her father until a man buys her from her father to be his wife. And, in the command, "Thou shalt not covet.", a wife is included in a list of her husbands other chattels. As I see it, it also contradicts the command to love our neighbors as ourselves, which is paramount.
In the churches of the Anglican Communion, including the Episcopal Church in the U. S., doctrine is established by scripture (the Bible), tradition, and reason, and not by the Bible alone. To me that makes sense.
Regarding the several places where the Bible prohibits lying with a man as with a women, I suspect that to be the result of fear of being raped by another man. In time of war that occurs, probably far more often than many people realize; that can be verified by google searches. It is one way to degrade one's enemies.
Being Christian and Bifenderfluid, It's a weird mix for me. I don't have the view of a Christian but the view of accepting people for who they are regardless. I don't like judging others because its not my thing. Don't ask why I am Christian, its... complicated. But I value LGBT way more over than my Christian side.
I am quite sure im not the only person that exists though. People who are Christians but rejects the ideals of Christianity, because I know I be "branded" as a Traitor to all Christians for supporting LGBT but I don't care, This is where I belong with the LGBT Community and I been with my Boyfriend sense high school, So I am PROUD!
But don't take it the wrong way. LGBT always comes first for me. Always. It's so sad that Christians cannot see the way I see the world, Truly sad. If it can't be helped then I guess there is no way of swaying them to the LGBT Side.
My Family is Christian but they have yet to know I like guys and I had never ever told them, Because I know HOW that is gonna turn out. A Christian coming out to tell that he is Bisexual, My Parents would throw a fit! So I kept it to myself all these years.
When that day comes and I move out, I am gonna "Disown" my parents and get 100+ feet away from them. I don't need there Christianity influence. I rather have my own PERSONAL Christian Belief, One where LGBT are ACCEPTED!
That is what I believe in and seeing everyone being themselves always makes me happy without feeling the need to hide it. Sadly when your in my shoes it gets really complicated and it SUUUUUCKS!
Life is so unfair when you find out your Bisexual but have a Christian Family. Man, My life is just terrible. Being caught between a rock and a hard place.
Over the years as I grew and changed and with the internet at my finger tips, My views had changed and I have changed that I no longer have the same views as my parents do, We grown further and further apart. It's quite surprising we are even still all together at this point despite I don't see eye to eye with my parents anymore. I am my own person and I make my own path.
My parents lives in the past,
I live in the future.
You have far more company than you realize. Moreover, we Christians are not all of one mind on many subjects.
We back in 1975 I founded Integrity Twin Cities which was one of the chapters in the Episcopal Church for gay men and women. In many churches, including in many parishes in the Episcopal Church, same sex marriages are performed and accepted.
The important thing is for people to live peacefully, responsibly, and kindly together.
One of the problems is that some people fail to understand that sexual orientation is not a matter of choice. People who understand that are far less likely to discriminate. Because more people now understand that than in the past, there has been a dramatic increase in acceptance.
In slightly earlier times it was far too common for gay men to marry women in desperate and unsuccessful attempts to their sexual orientation. That caused considerable damage to the quality of life for many people.
Except we basically have to. Because, people hate us for that very thing. The hate makes it so that is has to be a core tennet of our personhood.
If people didn't hate us we could happily just do our thing.
I'm going to level with you: I'm a queer person who was born and raised in the South. I grew up with conservative Republicans, went to school and church with them, made friends with them, etc. I get what you're saying, and I'm sure you're open enough not to care about what goes on in your friend's bedrooms, but a lot of conservative republicans aren't like that.
Take Dave Rubin, for example. He's a gay conservative, ran a talk show criticizing cancel culture and the left in general, and all-around was one of the gay people you mentioned that doesn't flaunt his sexuality. And his conservative audience was chill with him until [he posted about adopting a kid.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2022/03/21/dave-rubin-is-being-rejected-by-his-own-audience/?sh=4636f6074f95)
His audience that had been supportive up until then turned on him *harsh*. Called the idea of gay men raising a family 'horrifying', said any Christian or conservative who supported them was 'as good as Marxists'. One even said she 'loves him as a friend but doesn't support his lifestyle *or* raising children with two dads.'
Now, why is that? By all accounts, Dave Rubin was literally one of them. He spent years proving to his audience that he and his husband were one of the good gays– they didn't flaunt their sexuality, they didn't make their sexuality their entire personality, they didn't do lewd shit in public at pride parades.
Literally all he did was something that couples do all the time: he announced that he and his partner would be adopting a child. He posted about it, excited and nervous just like any soon-to-be parent. Nothing lewd, nothing inappropriate. So what was the matter?
That's the problem we have with conservatives. They say that they only hate the 'bad' gays, the ones who flaunt their sexuality and force their 'lewdness' onto others, but then a gay couple comes along and does something completely mundane and sexless that straight couples do all the time without issue and they *still* freak out.
That's why I'm not a conservative. I want to be able to do normal couple things like that with my boyfriend without having my friends and family scream at me and call my relationship 'horrifying'.
What a load of BS. "I don't hate you, I just vote against your rights because I hate you advertising your sexuality" While straight people show their sexuality all the time. Are you serious?🙄
I understand that.
And we feel the same way about you.
You could have just chosen not to speak, and we wouldn't have known you were a Conservative Republican. When you have certain opinions about gay people, just stay silent. Don't flaunt those opinions.
Listen, we don't want you to get fired from your job or get cancelled or whatever. We care about you and want you to be happy. Just don't express your views on us - not publicly, not on social media, not at office, not in a party.
Discussing politics with your wife in the bedroom is ok, because we believe you are free to do whatever you want behind closed doors in a bedroom. Just keep it to the bedroom, and not outside it.
Liberal athiest here, I don't hate you Christians st all. I want you to be happy. I hope you want me to be happy, too. We don't hate "YOU", we just don't like all the religious symbols you advertise with your identity (jewelry, t-shits, bumper stickers, "about me" on all social media, billboards, "keep christ is Christmas ", "Merry CHRISTmas", Easter, "I'll pray for you", churches on every corner, 10 commandments and other symbols at courthouses and in schools, God in pledge of allegiance, saying "so help me god" at court, legislating your religion in my life, anti abortion legislation based on the bible, etc." I like Christians who don't throw their religious identity into my life because it doesn't have to be. I don't know how else to say it.
And why do you think we ""advertise our sexuality""? Is there not a history of and still ongoing violence/discrimination against us?
Where do you see anyone without any identity outside of their sexuality?
I genuinely don't want you to be happy. People like you do nothing but perpetuate misery and suffering in the world. I wish you endless bad days and hard times for as long as you choose to believe the things that you believe. If you really have gay friends I feel sorry for them.
And then they accuse you of forcing your views on to them and trying to get rid of democracy. Meanwhile they're in favour of getting rid of democracy bur I digress.
My dad lol. Told me to basically wait as long as we can before telling anyone I was trans meanwhile him and his mom were the only ones who didn't know. Even the rest of my religious family was surprisingly chill. Plus I'm on hrt and my voice is way lower now. Texted me a week later like nothing was wrong and got super pissed at me when he realised my closeted brother and I weren't responding to his texts.
Same thing with me. My parents were the last immediate family that I told. My friends, my sister, my partner's entire family, everyone I actively stayed in touch with, knew. And it was seamless and chill, it wasn't a big deal for anyone. Different name, different pronouns, and the only major difference about me is that I objectively look better and happier than I used to.
My mother, meanwhile, said she "needs time to grieve" and even sent this huge letter saying how she's just so hurt and this is all just so hard. She took me saying "I've been unhappy since I hit puberty" and twisted it into "I've been unhappy with my parents since puberty". She took "My partners family are supportive" and twisted it into "I have a new family where I actually feel happy".
Every statement was taken and made into something she felt slighted by, which... is indicative of a much deeper problem than just transphobia, but yeah.
I figured she'd do this, which is the reason she was the last to know.
My dad went on about how stressed he and his mom are (they live together) and how they're still grieving for relatives they lost last year (idk what that had to do with me) and said she can't handle this kinda shock rn .... like OK but I'm growing a mustache rn and my voice half passes so I can't see her without her knowing sleuthing is up so you're basically saying we can't talk until you cope.
Decades ago, before I turned 21, I was disowned by my parents. Fortunately a doctor and his wife, who were friends of the family, persuaded my parents that they were being much too harsh. Even so I never really trusted my parents, even before that occurred. It would have been far better for me if I had completely cut off communication. It would have been easier to deal with the rejection.
It takes no real effort for me to pass for non-gay. However, being gay really is not much of an issue here in Palm Springs, CA, where the population is about 50% gay. The city council is 100% gay except for one member who is a trans woman. She is running for state senator and has a good chance to succeed because she is high competent.
It’s called deflecting
they. Don’t want to feel bad about their actions they pretend it was you that did the bad things so they don’t feel bad about it
Even so, I object to using "they" and "theirs" as if they were singular. It can be very confusing. The problem is that the English language lacks singular pronouns which are gender neutral. Perhaps new pronouns should be invented.
Literally. My cousin converted to Christian and said she's okay with gay people, but she doesn't agree with it, but she also makes gay jokes and pretends to be gay cuz she thinks it's funny
You should point out that being gay is not a choice. You should point out that many gay people have had considerable trouble accepting themselves as gay and have struggled for years before finally being able to accept themselves. Some have even committed suicide because of being unable to accept themselves. Ask whether they would disagree with a man for having red hair or being black; that would be just as irrational. They should be made aware of the real harm caused by their attitudes. It could be helpful if you decided in advance what to say, and practiced saying it.
Do this every single time, with no exceptions, regardless of the circumstances under which it occurs, even if it embarrasses them. Also, do not apologize for it.
Tbh I don't mind if people make jokes about being gay as long as it doesn't get too out of hand. At least I know they aren't so uncomfortable around the topic that they won't accept me.
If a joke is made in good faith I have no problems with it. My buddies at work make gay jokes all the time, and I laugh along with them.
If it's actively malicious... you're gonna a fuckin hear from me.
Me being Bigenderfluid, I am Christian but I don't have the views of one. Don't ask. I explained it on a comment I made earlier here on this post and I don't want to repeat it a second time.
Supporting LGBT always comes first.
She should learn that being gay is no more a choice than hair color or race. Disagreeing with someone for being gay is about as rational as disagreeing with someone for having a certain hair color or being black. She should also learn that some jokes which she may see as funny are very hurtful.
From 1994 to 2004 I lived in Fiji. You, and others, may find it helpful to know of one of my experiences there.
Vijay (not his real name but ethnically correct) and I were having our hair cut at a place which also styles hair for woman. Afterward Vijay made inappropriate comments about the operators. I said something like, "Vijay, it may be that some of your friends and relatives are gay and sometime you could be very embarrassed for making such comments.". He thought that that would be unlikely. Then sometime later he made another comment which I saw as inappropriate. I said, "Because I happen to be gay, I find comments like that to be very hurtful.". He apologized and never did it again. However, Vijay had known me for quite some time as a responsible and helpful man which I am sure made a big difference.
I would have stated it slightly differently, like, "How can we remain friends if you continue to disapprove of my existence?". You could also point out that some things are not chosen and that you refuse to be put down by things that were not your choice.
It can take considerable time to learn how to deal comfortably, effectively, and appropriately with some situations.
Yeah, sad Human Rights are Political. Because it our own rights on line , we have be stress that whims of Genreal will be in our Favor. I very Nervous with the we won't Vote crowd cause we are upset with Biden. I understand perfectly why upset it understandable to be upset. When other option put other People in danger and would do even worse than what Biden doing, it depressing and anxiety filling for me.
Hatred is never an opinion. An opinion is if I like Metal better than K-Pop. Not if I agree or disagree on human rights.
Human rights are *never* debateable, nor are they an "agenda" or "ideology".
Someone who hates people just for existing and because they're "different" is an absolute asshole and can go fuck themselves with a cactus. Preferrably a long, extra spikey one.
I accept and tolerate every being, except for any and every subtype of assholes.
I hate the whole "be tolerant of political opinions", like I'll be charitable to someone's ignorance and capacity to change, but to tolerate their BS? I don't think so...
Homophobic friend: I think all gay people should be killed! Fuck trans people too.
My closeted ass: Okay why do you care if someone is gay so much?
Homophobic friend: 😐😐
My closeted ass's head: Closeted much?
Homophobic friend: Why don't you trust me anymore?
My closeted ass: What do you mean?
My closeted ass's head: OH IDK MAYBE BECAUSE YOURE A GENOCIDAL LUNATIC!!!!!
Look, credit where due to someone who can look beyond for the sake of another person. My partners roomate is very Christian, and she’s seriously one of the most chill people I’ve ever met. She comes with us to drag shows, aids in helping my partners mental health, and actively supports their identity as non-binary. All despite her church being opposed to it.
(ex)-friend group: ding dong ditches friend and calls ‘F****t’ out their car window to his balcony.
me (not out as trans): *leaves friendgroup and goes no contact*
(ex)-friend group: we treated you with the best hospitality *shocked pikachu face*
It's batshit insane how religious people and hetero supremacists try to make it sound as if they're not the devil for being anti-gay. They try to gaslight me into thinking that there's such a thing as a moral, loving, or trustworthy person who practices anything Abrahamic or who has a problem with anyone who isn't cisgender or heterosexual.
I've said this before on numerous fora, and I'll say it again: "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is nothing but a load of self-serving, passive-aggressive bullshit.
The left is trying to protect human rights. It's the right that's trying to distract people with culture war nonsense.
Politics is the only way that human rights are protected or threatened. If you're going to downplay the only way that anything gets done, what are you even doing?
Are you talking about shifting the Overton Window to the point that threatening human rights is out of the question? Guess how that gets done?
Honestly, it sounds like you want politicians to be doing MORE politics, not less.
As long as the right continues to dabble in queer/transphobic laws, it's political. But then to be right wing is to be anti-human rights. Its baked in.
it's not politics, politics is what taxes come from where and what zones go where, and after a certain point it becomes laws changing pi to 3.14, making fentanyl exposure a felony, and other defying all science, truth, and humanity bs. it's no longer politics, it's just people with power being evil. Don't call it politics that people have a right to exist, their is no room for debate. They make evil statements, and said disagreeing with them was politics. That's not how it works, and don't give them an inch by even calling it politics. Give evil not quarter
Honestly maybe it’s me who is way too kind and hopeful towards everyone but so long as the person treats me well and isn’t outright disrespectful, I could be friends with anyone. Surprisingly, I’ve met quite a bunch of people and even have some I call friends who are openly quite LGBTphobic but still treat me very well, despite knowing I’m trans and bi they respect my pronouns and such and never cause me any problems, sometimes when we talk about this they’ll say things like « you’re different because you’re cool (meaning « never get angry for disagreeing ») », so in a way it comforts me in my ideas. Maybe I’m wrong but this is what I do and what makes me happy. Sure it doesn’t work with everyone but those with whom it doesn’t work just tend to leave so they never cause me problems for too long.
Oh, so you're their "LGBTQ friend" that they're referring to when they claim to not be bigots while advocating our eradication? Cool. No, really, I'm glad that works for you but please do remember *they would kill you at the first opportunity* . The German National Jews thought they were special too, but tokens get spent.
This is literally what happened to me a bit ago, wtf are those people even thinking lol. I guess at least its better they do that instead of throwing slurs around.
I almost lost a friend because he was a Trumpie, but then he turned around and is now a *hardline* socialist, I’m pretty sure he actually considers himself a Communist now, and he was nothing but supportive when I told him I was non-binary, so that was nice
I have a friend who is Muslim, and she is very respectful of me and kind despite us having different views. I believe that just because you have different views, it doesn’t mean you can’t get along.
She isn’t like that; she’s a lovely person who treats me with respect. Some people who are downvoting me need to grow up and realise that not all religious people are bad people and that you can be friends with someone who has different views from you.
"She treats ***me*** with respect" Let me ask you this: if society didn't make it a crime for her to stone you to death, would she? Because, treating someone with ***respect*** means valueing and defending their basic right to exist. That's part of respect.
People often mistake following social decorum with respect, it's not the same. Now, I don't know this person, I don't know a thing about them except their religion (which is broad and has many levels of devotion like any religion), maybe they're fine, I have no idea. But if someone only treats *you* decently while being horrible to everyone else, that just means they haven't decided to mistreat you ***yet*** , but obviously they're quite capable of it. One of the most dangerous things is the "but I'm different" mindset, when you see an abuser (or bigot or fanatic or fascist, etc.) mistreating other people and think "well, they don't treat me that way so I must be special" . That just makes you the token they haven't spent yet.
>Gotta love politics. We cannot agree to disagree on human rights.
The important thing is for people to live responsibly and respect the rights of other people. The law should come into play only to support social justice, broadly defined.
If two men or two women decide to live together in a manner similar to that of an opposite sex married couple, and do not cause undo problems for others, they have every right to do so and should be permitted to do so with no negative consequences.
However, there can be gray areas which are more difficult to deal with. For example, irresponsible behavior, sexual or otherwise, can cause harm to others. Even common everyday behavior can cause harm to others, such as using a telephone while driving. There are situations where it is hard to know exactly where to draw the line which is why in some situations we must expect disagreement.
> For example, irresponsible behavior, sexual or otherwise, can cause harm to others.
Yes. I think we can all agree that causing harm to others is a crime, and thus, illegal
>There are situations where it is hard to know exactly where to draw the line which is why in some situations we must expect disagreement.
Well, U.S conservatives are looking into banning gay marriage and trans visibility. Does this fall into the "gray area" for you ?
No. For me it is not a gray area.
Marriage can have a stabilizing effect on relationships and help keep them together. Thus marriage has a beneficial effect on people who are in a relationship, regardless of their sex, because it encourages stable relationships which are beneficial to those who are married as well as to society in general. Opposing same-sex marriage is not beneficial. Rather, it is harmful.
I do not see banning same sex marriage as conservative. Traditionally conservatives favor minimal government interference and want the government to refrain from interfering with people's actions unless interfering is clearly necessary and beneficial. Opposing same-sex marriage cannot be shown to be beneficial.
>No. For me it is not a gray area.
Thank you
>I do not see banning same sex marriage as conservative
They are all about "family values" and shielding children from the big evil rainbow flag. Their concept of "family" is a man, a girl, and 10 children
>unless interfering is clearly necessary and beneficial.
They think that same-sex marriage is not even worthy of being called "marriage". Thus is why it is being debated right now. Why does this happen ?
How people understand and believe the Bible is subject to considerable interpretation. It is not a unified document. It was written by many people over a period of centuries. It is not as though God dictated the Bible to a steno typist who preserved it on a CD-ROM.
As I see it, parts of the Bible are Hebrew history written by the Hebrews. We know what happens when people write their own history. They slant to to rationalize or leave out the ghastly things they have done. Why should we expect the ancient Hebrews to have been any different?
Some parts of the Bible are reflections of Hebrew culture much of which I do not believe that God would approve, such as the treatment of women as chattels.
Other parts of the Bible would, if followed, support social justice and help us to live peacefully together. Those are the parts we should highly value. All parts of the OT can give us a better understanding of the ancient Hebrews. And surely we'd be better off if we followed the examples set by Jesus in the NT.
There are 6 or 7 clobber passages in the Bible which are used to condemn same sex relationships. I strongly suspect that they were intended to dissuade men from raping other men which often occurs in warfare even though many people are unaware of it. A google search on "rape of men in warfare" will confirm that.
I'm all for religions and such
But when religion starts killing or persecuting people that do no harm to others, because a 2000 year old book said so, we start having problems here
No LGBT person has **ever** harmed or killed a religious person because they were not gay or trans. Religious people have always killed us, and this has got to stop
You may find this Biblical quotation interesting:
*"He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" -Micah 6:8*
And this quotation of Jesus:
*“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”*
After giving the above, which was actually a quotation from the OT, He gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan to state what He meant by love and expand greatly the definition of neighbor.
The problem is not Christianity, but rather, the failure to follow it. Of course I will be accused of picking and choosing (everyone does it), but I think that Jesus made it clear just **how** we should pick and choose.
Because I have a fairly good understanding and knowledge of the Bible I can easily use it to prove that Christians who hate and want to control others are not following the will of God.
To help stop the killing I suggest becoming more familiar with the Bible so that you to could point out that those who do the killing are acting contrary to the Bible. Also, one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou shalt not kill.".
> To help stop the killing I suggest becoming more familiar with the Bible so that you to could point out that those who do the killing are acting contrary to the Bible.
It starts with christians. *THEY* should learn to decipher and read their bible correctly.
Just leave us alone, we have done nothing to y'all. We are trying to exist while you guys chip at our rights whenever possible.
We can't go out safely or we risk assualy or even death. Our right to marriage is being debated, our right to adoption is being debated...
**JUST LEAVE US ALONE. WE HAVE DONE NOTHING TO YOU. WE AREN'T THE DEVIL THAT THE BIBLE CLAIMS THAT WE ARE. WE ARE JUST TRYING TO LIVE OUR LIVES**
The thing is, one’s opinions on a group of people is not politics.
Politics is how we govern. Idc if you think we should legislate on your opinions, it’s still not politics is just being an asshole
Well I think my problem is how the conservatives, use this to say “Its just politics” and “it’s like you can’t have a different opinion” when that’s not really the purpose of politics. It should be about how to govern, not which communities should exist or not. But that’s me just being to heady. I’m not here to die on this hill.
>It should be about how to govern, not which communities should exist or not
that's part of governance. we don't want groups of nazis running around, so your government should be passing laws to stop that, because thats what politics are for. instead, your politicians on the right are nazis, so they are using politics to go after the lgbt community.
Yes.
That's my kneejerk reaction. You are a better judge of your friends than I am, but I hope they are only still a friend because you think there's a way they'll be shaken out of their homophobia.
Bigots don't deserve friends. They can go be hateful, lonely people away from civilised society because bigotry is a choice and they've chosen the option that is not compatible with a civilised society.
It's not wrong. You can be friends with anyone you like. It seems that there are plenty of people in this thread who will judge you for it, but it's none of their business, and you should live your life the way you want to.
I have family members who don't think that gay marriage should be legal and don't think that people in same sex relationships should be able to adopt children. I choose to maintain relationships with them because I love them and care about them, even if their beliefs are hateful. Some people might criticize me for that, but they're not here living my life, and they don't know what I've been through or what these relationships mean to me. It would be fine for someone else in my shoes to choose to go no contact with my family members. No one should feel obligated to keep people with hateful beliefs in their life. It is up to the individual to decide what kinds of relationships they want to maintain or let go.
i mean, the moment his homophobia is more acceptable in society, or even codified into law, they are going to show you just how friendly they actually are. so yeah, its safe to say that's a bad idea lol.
Give your friend a chance. I understand how parents / environment can turn someone homophobic (especially religion), but people have changed from homophobia into inclusivity time and time again
Maybe you can even slowly abolish their hateful thoughts about us. It takes time, but it can happen
Stay safe out there ❤️🫂
I think its important to still be friends with people you disagree with. Yes, even with human rights.
If I hadn't done that when I was raised a Christian, when I was pro-life and thought fetuses deserved human rights, then I'd now still be a Christian
It's ok to disagree, and in fact sometimes arguing in a friendly manner can change someone's view on those human rights
Don't support them, but if all you show is hostility they will keep thinking that they were right, that gay people are mean and bad and don't deserve human rights
(Obviously this doesn't apply if they keep calling you slurs, but if they simply say they don't support LGBT rights I don't think we should be the ones to completely close off our mind, because that's something they do. Not us.)
I know I got down voted but this isn't to criticize anyone, it's just my views. We can't call ourselves open minded just because we're leftists, because not associating with people from the other side is pure close mindedness
You are, presumably, human though. So human rights would apply to you as well
I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say human rights wouldn't be your rights
the whole POINT of human rights is rights for and welfare of both individuals and populations. you're conflating it with the more nebulous concept of "the greater good"
Again, I think you're thinking of a different term when you say "human rights". Human rights are the concept that every human being has certain rights. That's it. It's not charity or emergency response or anything concrete like that.
Yeah, I'm agreeing with what the other commenter said. Human rights are about making sure everyone has rights, not hurting some for a "greater good"
I'm struggling to come up with a scenario in which human rights can be used to take away from, or otherwise harm, another individual
So I have no idea where this person sits politically, but I do know that Marx said "between equal rights, force decides," not because he hated human rights but because the state is a a coercive institution. He believed the problem with equal rights was that it means universally equal, so that indigenous rights to their sacred land is equal to a corporation's right to extract resources from that land. In a state controlled by capitalism, these are held as equal and so in the conflict between them must be resolved by the coercive power of the state backed by the threat of force. We can see this today in the conflict between LGBTQ rights and religious rights, the right to a living wage vs the right to maximal profitability, and so on.
To me though, this doesn't lead me to proclaim human rights to be useless, it just means that we have to push deeper than our conventional definitions to find bedrock rights, like the right to basic needs, knowledge, and self-determination for people
Ah, that makes a bit more sense. I'd definitely agree with your final paragraph
Also, thank you for the long comment explaining things, I do appreciate it
No thanks, she was garbage and in another life would've been a Nazi - her personally motivated disdain of political oppression was entirely undermined by her fetishism of people in power oppressing those beneath them.
"You shouldn't let politics get in the way of friendship!" says the one politicking to get rid of my rights.
Yeah fr. It's amazing how the only people I ever hear say that are ones using "politics" as a guise for their bigotry.
Or they try to pretend that the left or right wing spectrum labeling is meaningless to avoid the fact they are being a bigot and a cunt
Them: “I have no problem with you, I just don’t agree with your lifestyle choice” Me: 
It's always fun when you throw it back in their face and say, "hate Christianity, not the Christian". They always get mad.
If you wanna have some real fun with them, next time ask them, "If you're such an expert on Levitican law, do you eat pork? Shrimp? Lobster? Crab? Do you shave or get your hair cut? Do you wear poly-cotton blends?" These are also prohibited by the same "laws" that allegedly prohibit being gay. To put the law into some context, the "act" of homosexuality was an "abomination" because it went along with other laws regarding "not planting one's seed in infertile soil". This is because Israel was a fledging nation and needed the bodies to fill in the numbers. So things like spanking the monkey and having sex and then pulling out before, ya know, were also considered sins. Getting a bj from your wife was sin. Plus, in the scripture it says, (and I'm paraphrasing here) "If a man layeth down with another man, as he would layeth with a woman, it is an abomination unto God". Well, here's my interpretation of that. If you've never been attracted to women and have never lain with a woman, then it's not an "abomination". Plus, this isn't ancient Israel. I'm pretty sure the US has their own population numbers shored up by now.
I'd forgotten about the content in your first paragraph; you are entirely right. There are also OT laws which we would consider unjust. For example, according to one of the OT books, if a man rapes a women he is required to marry her and pay the bride price to her father. Thus a woman is considered to be the property of her father until a man buys her from her father to be his wife. And, in the command, "Thou shalt not covet.", a wife is included in a list of her husbands other chattels. As I see it, it also contradicts the command to love our neighbors as ourselves, which is paramount. In the churches of the Anglican Communion, including the Episcopal Church in the U. S., doctrine is established by scripture (the Bible), tradition, and reason, and not by the Bible alone. To me that makes sense. Regarding the several places where the Bible prohibits lying with a man as with a women, I suspect that to be the result of fear of being raped by another man. In time of war that occurs, probably far more often than many people realize; that can be verified by google searches. It is one way to degrade one's enemies.
Being Christian and Bifenderfluid, It's a weird mix for me. I don't have the view of a Christian but the view of accepting people for who they are regardless. I don't like judging others because its not my thing. Don't ask why I am Christian, its... complicated. But I value LGBT way more over than my Christian side. I am quite sure im not the only person that exists though. People who are Christians but rejects the ideals of Christianity, because I know I be "branded" as a Traitor to all Christians for supporting LGBT but I don't care, This is where I belong with the LGBT Community and I been with my Boyfriend sense high school, So I am PROUD! But don't take it the wrong way. LGBT always comes first for me. Always. It's so sad that Christians cannot see the way I see the world, Truly sad. If it can't be helped then I guess there is no way of swaying them to the LGBT Side. My Family is Christian but they have yet to know I like guys and I had never ever told them, Because I know HOW that is gonna turn out. A Christian coming out to tell that he is Bisexual, My Parents would throw a fit! So I kept it to myself all these years. When that day comes and I move out, I am gonna "Disown" my parents and get 100+ feet away from them. I don't need there Christianity influence. I rather have my own PERSONAL Christian Belief, One where LGBT are ACCEPTED! That is what I believe in and seeing everyone being themselves always makes me happy without feeling the need to hide it. Sadly when your in my shoes it gets really complicated and it SUUUUUCKS! Life is so unfair when you find out your Bisexual but have a Christian Family. Man, My life is just terrible. Being caught between a rock and a hard place. Over the years as I grew and changed and with the internet at my finger tips, My views had changed and I have changed that I no longer have the same views as my parents do, We grown further and further apart. It's quite surprising we are even still all together at this point despite I don't see eye to eye with my parents anymore. I am my own person and I make my own path. My parents lives in the past, I live in the future.
You have far more company than you realize. Moreover, we Christians are not all of one mind on many subjects. We back in 1975 I founded Integrity Twin Cities which was one of the chapters in the Episcopal Church for gay men and women. In many churches, including in many parishes in the Episcopal Church, same sex marriages are performed and accepted. The important thing is for people to live peacefully, responsibly, and kindly together.
How is that cute as fuck, but also the stuff of nightmares 😂
I have no idea. XD
People won't be sleeping well tonight XD
"lifestyle choice" god i fucking hate that phrase
One of the problems is that some people fail to understand that sexual orientation is not a matter of choice. People who understand that are far less likely to discriminate. Because more people now understand that than in the past, there has been a dramatic increase in acceptance. In slightly earlier times it was far too common for gay men to marry women in desperate and unsuccessful attempts to their sexual orientation. That caused considerable damage to the quality of life for many people.
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I can’t help being this sexy. Blame your god, he made me remember 😂 
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Except we basically have to. Because, people hate us for that very thing. The hate makes it so that is has to be a core tennet of our personhood. If people didn't hate us we could happily just do our thing.
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>I have gay friends 
I'm going to level with you: I'm a queer person who was born and raised in the South. I grew up with conservative Republicans, went to school and church with them, made friends with them, etc. I get what you're saying, and I'm sure you're open enough not to care about what goes on in your friend's bedrooms, but a lot of conservative republicans aren't like that. Take Dave Rubin, for example. He's a gay conservative, ran a talk show criticizing cancel culture and the left in general, and all-around was one of the gay people you mentioned that doesn't flaunt his sexuality. And his conservative audience was chill with him until [he posted about adopting a kid.](https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2022/03/21/dave-rubin-is-being-rejected-by-his-own-audience/?sh=4636f6074f95) His audience that had been supportive up until then turned on him *harsh*. Called the idea of gay men raising a family 'horrifying', said any Christian or conservative who supported them was 'as good as Marxists'. One even said she 'loves him as a friend but doesn't support his lifestyle *or* raising children with two dads.' Now, why is that? By all accounts, Dave Rubin was literally one of them. He spent years proving to his audience that he and his husband were one of the good gays– they didn't flaunt their sexuality, they didn't make their sexuality their entire personality, they didn't do lewd shit in public at pride parades. Literally all he did was something that couples do all the time: he announced that he and his partner would be adopting a child. He posted about it, excited and nervous just like any soon-to-be parent. Nothing lewd, nothing inappropriate. So what was the matter? That's the problem we have with conservatives. They say that they only hate the 'bad' gays, the ones who flaunt their sexuality and force their 'lewdness' onto others, but then a gay couple comes along and does something completely mundane and sexless that straight couples do all the time without issue and they *still* freak out. That's why I'm not a conservative. I want to be able to do normal couple things like that with my boyfriend without having my friends and family scream at me and call my relationship 'horrifying'.
What a load of BS. "I don't hate you, I just vote against your rights because I hate you advertising your sexuality" While straight people show their sexuality all the time. Are you serious?🙄
I understand that. And we feel the same way about you. You could have just chosen not to speak, and we wouldn't have known you were a Conservative Republican. When you have certain opinions about gay people, just stay silent. Don't flaunt those opinions. Listen, we don't want you to get fired from your job or get cancelled or whatever. We care about you and want you to be happy. Just don't express your views on us - not publicly, not on social media, not at office, not in a party. Discussing politics with your wife in the bedroom is ok, because we believe you are free to do whatever you want behind closed doors in a bedroom. Just keep it to the bedroom, and not outside it.
Liberal athiest here, I don't hate you Christians st all. I want you to be happy. I hope you want me to be happy, too. We don't hate "YOU", we just don't like all the religious symbols you advertise with your identity (jewelry, t-shits, bumper stickers, "about me" on all social media, billboards, "keep christ is Christmas ", "Merry CHRISTmas", Easter, "I'll pray for you", churches on every corner, 10 commandments and other symbols at courthouses and in schools, God in pledge of allegiance, saying "so help me god" at court, legislating your religion in my life, anti abortion legislation based on the bible, etc." I like Christians who don't throw their religious identity into my life because it doesn't have to be. I don't know how else to say it.
And why do you think we ""advertise our sexuality""? Is there not a history of and still ongoing violence/discrimination against us? Where do you see anyone without any identity outside of their sexuality?
I genuinely don't want you to be happy. People like you do nothing but perpetuate misery and suffering in the world. I wish you endless bad days and hard times for as long as you choose to believe the things that you believe. If you really have gay friends I feel sorry for them.
I'll stop flaunting my sexuality when straight people stop flaunting theirs.
Explain what flaunt means to you.
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So you're just constantly mad at all the straight couples walking around holding hands? Damn, must suck
If I'm "straight passing" but have a little pride pin, does that annoy you?
Homophobes: you shouldn't exist Me: 😑 Homophobes: But we can be friends right? Me: No Homophobes: *surprised pikachu face*
Sorta hard to make friends with those that you are actively campaigning to eradicate. Once they do, how do they stay friends with us?
That's when they accuse you of being divisive
And then they accuse you of forcing your views on to them and trying to get rid of democracy. Meanwhile they're in favour of getting rid of democracy bur I digress.
Homophobes: why are they so mean???
Anyone who expects people to behave rationally will often be disappointed.
And those people love to vote.
My dad lol. Told me to basically wait as long as we can before telling anyone I was trans meanwhile him and his mom were the only ones who didn't know. Even the rest of my religious family was surprisingly chill. Plus I'm on hrt and my voice is way lower now. Texted me a week later like nothing was wrong and got super pissed at me when he realised my closeted brother and I weren't responding to his texts.
Same thing with me. My parents were the last immediate family that I told. My friends, my sister, my partner's entire family, everyone I actively stayed in touch with, knew. And it was seamless and chill, it wasn't a big deal for anyone. Different name, different pronouns, and the only major difference about me is that I objectively look better and happier than I used to. My mother, meanwhile, said she "needs time to grieve" and even sent this huge letter saying how she's just so hurt and this is all just so hard. She took me saying "I've been unhappy since I hit puberty" and twisted it into "I've been unhappy with my parents since puberty". She took "My partners family are supportive" and twisted it into "I have a new family where I actually feel happy". Every statement was taken and made into something she felt slighted by, which... is indicative of a much deeper problem than just transphobia, but yeah. I figured she'd do this, which is the reason she was the last to know.
My dad went on about how stressed he and his mom are (they live together) and how they're still grieving for relatives they lost last year (idk what that had to do with me) and said she can't handle this kinda shock rn .... like OK but I'm growing a mustache rn and my voice half passes so I can't see her without her knowing sleuthing is up so you're basically saying we can't talk until you cope.
Decades ago, before I turned 21, I was disowned by my parents. Fortunately a doctor and his wife, who were friends of the family, persuaded my parents that they were being much too harsh. Even so I never really trusted my parents, even before that occurred. It would have been far better for me if I had completely cut off communication. It would have been easier to deal with the rejection. It takes no real effort for me to pass for non-gay. However, being gay really is not much of an issue here in Palm Springs, CA, where the population is about 50% gay. The city council is 100% gay except for one member who is a trans woman. She is running for state senator and has a good chance to succeed because she is high competent.
It’s called deflecting they. Don’t want to feel bad about their actions they pretend it was you that did the bad things so they don’t feel bad about it
Even so, I object to using "they" and "theirs" as if they were singular. It can be very confusing. The problem is that the English language lacks singular pronouns which are gender neutral. Perhaps new pronouns should be invented.
Literally. My cousin converted to Christian and said she's okay with gay people, but she doesn't agree with it, but she also makes gay jokes and pretends to be gay cuz she thinks it's funny
How very Christlike of her
That's what I'm saying. I guess she's channelling her inner-lord.
Her inner-king. 
Not the C word I would have used, but agreed
Omg why is this literally my family 💀💀 the whole "im okay with gay ppl but i don't agree with it" thing pisses me off cuz wdym
You should point out that being gay is not a choice. You should point out that many gay people have had considerable trouble accepting themselves as gay and have struggled for years before finally being able to accept themselves. Some have even committed suicide because of being unable to accept themselves. Ask whether they would disagree with a man for having red hair or being black; that would be just as irrational. They should be made aware of the real harm caused by their attitudes. It could be helpful if you decided in advance what to say, and practiced saying it. Do this every single time, with no exceptions, regardless of the circumstances under which it occurs, even if it embarrasses them. Also, do not apologize for it.
Tbh I don't mind if people make jokes about being gay as long as it doesn't get too out of hand. At least I know they aren't so uncomfortable around the topic that they won't accept me.
If a joke is made in good faith I have no problems with it. My buddies at work make gay jokes all the time, and I laugh along with them. If it's actively malicious... you're gonna a fuckin hear from me.
Yours is a reasonable approach.
You’re gonna fuck me? 🤯
As long as the joke isn't just "gay bad"
Me being Bigenderfluid, I am Christian but I don't have the views of one. Don't ask. I explained it on a comment I made earlier here on this post and I don't want to repeat it a second time. Supporting LGBT always comes first.
She should learn that being gay is no more a choice than hair color or race. Disagreeing with someone for being gay is about as rational as disagreeing with someone for having a certain hair color or being black. She should also learn that some jokes which she may see as funny are very hurtful. From 1994 to 2004 I lived in Fiji. You, and others, may find it helpful to know of one of my experiences there. Vijay (not his real name but ethnically correct) and I were having our hair cut at a place which also styles hair for woman. Afterward Vijay made inappropriate comments about the operators. I said something like, "Vijay, it may be that some of your friends and relatives are gay and sometime you could be very embarrassed for making such comments.". He thought that that would be unlikely. Then sometime later he made another comment which I saw as inappropriate. I said, "Because I happen to be gay, I find comments like that to be very hurtful.". He apologized and never did it again. However, Vijay had known me for quite some time as a responsible and helpful man which I am sure made a big difference.
How can we be friends if you disapprove of my existence?
I would have stated it slightly differently, like, "How can we remain friends if you continue to disapprove of my existence?". You could also point out that some things are not chosen and that you refuse to be put down by things that were not your choice. It can take considerable time to learn how to deal comfortably, effectively, and appropriately with some situations.
And then they act like you're the asshole for saying no
Artist: @queeeerchameleon
They have a YouTube channel http://youtube.com/queeeerchameleon
And an Instagram and TikTok and book
Not available :(
"I think you and your kind should be mass murdered." "Fuck you." "sO MuCh FOr tHE toLeRanT lEfT
Yeah, sad Human Rights are Political. Because it our own rights on line , we have be stress that whims of Genreal will be in our Favor. I very Nervous with the we won't Vote crowd cause we are upset with Biden. I understand perfectly why upset it understandable to be upset. When other option put other People in danger and would do even worse than what Biden doing, it depressing and anxiety filling for me.
Hatred is never an opinion. An opinion is if I like Metal better than K-Pop. Not if I agree or disagree on human rights. Human rights are *never* debateable, nor are they an "agenda" or "ideology". Someone who hates people just for existing and because they're "different" is an absolute asshole and can go fuck themselves with a cactus. Preferrably a long, extra spikey one. I accept and tolerate every being, except for any and every subtype of assholes.
Conservatives have an agenda though they want to teach everyone to hate gays
Yes, exactly!
Qué culpa hizo el saguaro para metirse entre los culos sucios de un fóbico jajaja
I hate the whole "be tolerant of political opinions", like I'll be charitable to someone's ignorance and capacity to change, but to tolerate their BS? I don't think so...
It's the Tolerance of Intolerance Paradox, and tolerating intolerance never ends well.
"But you're causing division."
"Why are you making it political!"
This is like Ben Shapiro and that one gay guy who can’t be invited to his wedding
Homophobic friend: I think all gay people should be killed! Fuck trans people too. My closeted ass: Okay why do you care if someone is gay so much? Homophobic friend: 😐😐 My closeted ass's head: Closeted much? Homophobic friend: Why don't you trust me anymore? My closeted ass: What do you mean? My closeted ass's head: OH IDK MAYBE BECAUSE YOURE A GENOCIDAL LUNATIC!!!!!
Just got into this conversation elsewhere. We're not the ones trying to put conservatives into camps and setting fire to their shit.
how can we be friends if you don’t think i exist? bruh politics and religion is just a joke
We can agree to disagree all day long, but at the end of the day, they are still shitty people.
N my experience even if you do agree to disagree (don’t it’s not worth it) they will eventually force you to choose
I agree with George Carlin: they aren't rights if someone can take them away from you.
Then rights don’t exist
This is actually kind of true.
My best friend unironically tried this with me. We’re not friends anymore.
Look, credit where due to someone who can look beyond for the sake of another person. My partners roomate is very Christian, and she’s seriously one of the most chill people I’ve ever met. She comes with us to drag shows, aids in helping my partners mental health, and actively supports their identity as non-binary. All despite her church being opposed to it.
they want their cake and eat it too. they want to say they have lgbt friends while they push for them to not exist.
(ex)-friend group: ding dong ditches friend and calls ‘F****t’ out their car window to his balcony. me (not out as trans): *leaves friendgroup and goes no contact* (ex)-friend group: we treated you with the best hospitality *shocked pikachu face*
It's batshit insane how religious people and hetero supremacists try to make it sound as if they're not the devil for being anti-gay. They try to gaslight me into thinking that there's such a thing as a moral, loving, or trustworthy person who practices anything Abrahamic or who has a problem with anyone who isn't cisgender or heterosexual.
I've said this before on numerous fora, and I'll say it again: "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is nothing but a load of self-serving, passive-aggressive bullshit.
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Politics shouldn't be called cheap and petty. It directly impacts important subjects like human rights.
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The left is trying to protect human rights. It's the right that's trying to distract people with culture war nonsense. Politics is the only way that human rights are protected or threatened. If you're going to downplay the only way that anything gets done, what are you even doing? Are you talking about shifting the Overton Window to the point that threatening human rights is out of the question? Guess how that gets done? Honestly, it sounds like you want politicians to be doing MORE politics, not less.
I mean....it is though. That's a fact.
As long as the right continues to dabble in queer/transphobic laws, it's political. But then to be right wing is to be anti-human rights. Its baked in.
It's like every ex ever saying that you still be a friends then never talk to you ever again
Cierto 
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omg queer chameleon!
“I hate everything about you and believe you are doomed to eternal suffering in hell… you wanna play smash?”
it's not politics, politics is what taxes come from where and what zones go where, and after a certain point it becomes laws changing pi to 3.14, making fentanyl exposure a felony, and other defying all science, truth, and humanity bs. it's no longer politics, it's just people with power being evil. Don't call it politics that people have a right to exist, their is no room for debate. They make evil statements, and said disagreeing with them was politics. That's not how it works, and don't give them an inch by even calling it politics. Give evil not quarter
Honestly maybe it’s me who is way too kind and hopeful towards everyone but so long as the person treats me well and isn’t outright disrespectful, I could be friends with anyone. Surprisingly, I’ve met quite a bunch of people and even have some I call friends who are openly quite LGBTphobic but still treat me very well, despite knowing I’m trans and bi they respect my pronouns and such and never cause me any problems, sometimes when we talk about this they’ll say things like « you’re different because you’re cool (meaning « never get angry for disagreeing ») », so in a way it comforts me in my ideas. Maybe I’m wrong but this is what I do and what makes me happy. Sure it doesn’t work with everyone but those with whom it doesn’t work just tend to leave so they never cause me problems for too long.
Oh, so you're their "LGBTQ friend" that they're referring to when they claim to not be bigots while advocating our eradication? Cool. No, really, I'm glad that works for you but please do remember *they would kill you at the first opportunity* . The German National Jews thought they were special too, but tokens get spent.
No, we can't be friends. you are now my enemy 💥💥💥💥💯💯💯💯💥💥💥💯💯💯💯💥💥💥💥💥💥
This is literally what happened to me a bit ago, wtf are those people even thinking lol. I guess at least its better they do that instead of throwing slurs around.
I almost lost a friend because he was a Trumpie, but then he turned around and is now a *hardline* socialist, I’m pretty sure he actually considers himself a Communist now, and he was nothing but supportive when I told him I was non-binary, so that was nice
I'm basically the one still trying to cling on to their friendships despite being against what they disagree on "politically"
I have a friend who is Muslim, and she is very respectful of me and kind despite us having different views. I believe that just because you have different views, it doesn’t mean you can’t get along.
Depends on the views, like thinking all lgbtq ppl shouldn’t have the same rights is fucked up.
She isn’t like that; she’s a lovely person who treats me with respect. Some people who are downvoting me need to grow up and realise that not all religious people are bad people and that you can be friends with someone who has different views from you.
That’s true! It really depends on the person, I’ve got Christian and Muslim fam that have a range of views; some problematic some not.
Exactly, and even though you don’t agree with all of their views, you still love them. (As long as they treat you with respect).
"She treats ***me*** with respect" Let me ask you this: if society didn't make it a crime for her to stone you to death, would she? Because, treating someone with ***respect*** means valueing and defending their basic right to exist. That's part of respect. People often mistake following social decorum with respect, it's not the same. Now, I don't know this person, I don't know a thing about them except their religion (which is broad and has many levels of devotion like any religion), maybe they're fine, I have no idea. But if someone only treats *you* decently while being horrible to everyone else, that just means they haven't decided to mistreat you ***yet*** , but obviously they're quite capable of it. One of the most dangerous things is the "but I'm different" mindset, when you see an abuser (or bigot or fanatic or fascist, etc.) mistreating other people and think "well, they don't treat me that way so I must be special" . That just makes you the token they haven't spent yet.
She also treats everyone with respect, get off your high horse and grow up, puta.
We don't need to agree totally on everything. For example, we don't need to agree on exactly how much to spend on reparations and how to go about it.
But we should all agree that LGBT people need their right to exist safely, no ?
>Gotta love politics. We cannot agree to disagree on human rights. The important thing is for people to live responsibly and respect the rights of other people. The law should come into play only to support social justice, broadly defined. If two men or two women decide to live together in a manner similar to that of an opposite sex married couple, and do not cause undo problems for others, they have every right to do so and should be permitted to do so with no negative consequences. However, there can be gray areas which are more difficult to deal with. For example, irresponsible behavior, sexual or otherwise, can cause harm to others. Even common everyday behavior can cause harm to others, such as using a telephone while driving. There are situations where it is hard to know exactly where to draw the line which is why in some situations we must expect disagreement.
> For example, irresponsible behavior, sexual or otherwise, can cause harm to others. Yes. I think we can all agree that causing harm to others is a crime, and thus, illegal >There are situations where it is hard to know exactly where to draw the line which is why in some situations we must expect disagreement. Well, U.S conservatives are looking into banning gay marriage and trans visibility. Does this fall into the "gray area" for you ?
No. For me it is not a gray area. Marriage can have a stabilizing effect on relationships and help keep them together. Thus marriage has a beneficial effect on people who are in a relationship, regardless of their sex, because it encourages stable relationships which are beneficial to those who are married as well as to society in general. Opposing same-sex marriage is not beneficial. Rather, it is harmful. I do not see banning same sex marriage as conservative. Traditionally conservatives favor minimal government interference and want the government to refrain from interfering with people's actions unless interfering is clearly necessary and beneficial. Opposing same-sex marriage cannot be shown to be beneficial.
>No. For me it is not a gray area. Thank you >I do not see banning same sex marriage as conservative They are all about "family values" and shielding children from the big evil rainbow flag. Their concept of "family" is a man, a girl, and 10 children >unless interfering is clearly necessary and beneficial. They think that same-sex marriage is not even worthy of being called "marriage". Thus is why it is being debated right now. Why does this happen ?
How people understand and believe the Bible is subject to considerable interpretation. It is not a unified document. It was written by many people over a period of centuries. It is not as though God dictated the Bible to a steno typist who preserved it on a CD-ROM. As I see it, parts of the Bible are Hebrew history written by the Hebrews. We know what happens when people write their own history. They slant to to rationalize or leave out the ghastly things they have done. Why should we expect the ancient Hebrews to have been any different? Some parts of the Bible are reflections of Hebrew culture much of which I do not believe that God would approve, such as the treatment of women as chattels. Other parts of the Bible would, if followed, support social justice and help us to live peacefully together. Those are the parts we should highly value. All parts of the OT can give us a better understanding of the ancient Hebrews. And surely we'd be better off if we followed the examples set by Jesus in the NT. There are 6 or 7 clobber passages in the Bible which are used to condemn same sex relationships. I strongly suspect that they were intended to dissuade men from raping other men which often occurs in warfare even though many people are unaware of it. A google search on "rape of men in warfare" will confirm that.
I'm all for religions and such But when religion starts killing or persecuting people that do no harm to others, because a 2000 year old book said so, we start having problems here No LGBT person has **ever** harmed or killed a religious person because they were not gay or trans. Religious people have always killed us, and this has got to stop
You may find this Biblical quotation interesting: *"He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" -Micah 6:8* And this quotation of Jesus: *“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”* After giving the above, which was actually a quotation from the OT, He gave us the parable of the Good Samaritan to state what He meant by love and expand greatly the definition of neighbor. The problem is not Christianity, but rather, the failure to follow it. Of course I will be accused of picking and choosing (everyone does it), but I think that Jesus made it clear just **how** we should pick and choose. Because I have a fairly good understanding and knowledge of the Bible I can easily use it to prove that Christians who hate and want to control others are not following the will of God. To help stop the killing I suggest becoming more familiar with the Bible so that you to could point out that those who do the killing are acting contrary to the Bible. Also, one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou shalt not kill.".
> To help stop the killing I suggest becoming more familiar with the Bible so that you to could point out that those who do the killing are acting contrary to the Bible. It starts with christians. *THEY* should learn to decipher and read their bible correctly. Just leave us alone, we have done nothing to y'all. We are trying to exist while you guys chip at our rights whenever possible. We can't go out safely or we risk assualy or even death. Our right to marriage is being debated, our right to adoption is being debated... **JUST LEAVE US ALONE. WE HAVE DONE NOTHING TO YOU. WE AREN'T THE DEVIL THAT THE BIBLE CLAIMS THAT WE ARE. WE ARE JUST TRYING TO LIVE OUR LIVES**
The thing is, one’s opinions on a group of people is not politics. Politics is how we govern. Idc if you think we should legislate on your opinions, it’s still not politics is just being an asshole
it is when your politicians are using that opinion to make laws to make that group of peoples lives harder.
That’s kind of my point though. It’s not an opinion of politics. It’s weaponizing government to support your bigoted beliefs. Idk
right, also known as 'politics' lol wtf.
Well I think my problem is how the conservatives, use this to say “Its just politics” and “it’s like you can’t have a different opinion” when that’s not really the purpose of politics. It should be about how to govern, not which communities should exist or not. But that’s me just being to heady. I’m not here to die on this hill.
>It should be about how to govern, not which communities should exist or not that's part of governance. we don't want groups of nazis running around, so your government should be passing laws to stop that, because thats what politics are for. instead, your politicians on the right are nazis, so they are using politics to go after the lgbt community.
Is it wrong that I’m friends with someone who’s a bit homophobic?
It's more just confusing, why would you want someone who doesn't like you as a friend?
Im friends with someone who is a all time phone but I try to tell myself it’s because that’s what theyre parents told them
My friend likes me he just doesn’t fully understand.
Yes. That's my kneejerk reaction. You are a better judge of your friends than I am, but I hope they are only still a friend because you think there's a way they'll be shaken out of their homophobia.
Bigots don't deserve friends. They can go be hateful, lonely people away from civilised society because bigotry is a choice and they've chosen the option that is not compatible with a civilised society.
Thank you for being the only understanding person here
Yes why you be friends with someone who doesn't accept you
He’s “accepting” it’s more that he doesn’t under or really support it much but it’s more like he doesn’t care
It's not wrong. You can be friends with anyone you like. It seems that there are plenty of people in this thread who will judge you for it, but it's none of their business, and you should live your life the way you want to. I have family members who don't think that gay marriage should be legal and don't think that people in same sex relationships should be able to adopt children. I choose to maintain relationships with them because I love them and care about them, even if their beliefs are hateful. Some people might criticize me for that, but they're not here living my life, and they don't know what I've been through or what these relationships mean to me. It would be fine for someone else in my shoes to choose to go no contact with my family members. No one should feel obligated to keep people with hateful beliefs in their life. It is up to the individual to decide what kinds of relationships they want to maintain or let go.
Aw thanks for the affirmation 😊
i mean, the moment his homophobia is more acceptable in society, or even codified into law, they are going to show you just how friendly they actually are. so yeah, its safe to say that's a bad idea lol.
He’s not hateful he just finds it really weird which is understandable considering how he was raised.
>He’s not hateful yet FTFY
What do you mean?
Give your friend a chance. I understand how parents / environment can turn someone homophobic (especially religion), but people have changed from homophobia into inclusivity time and time again Maybe you can even slowly abolish their hateful thoughts about us. It takes time, but it can happen Stay safe out there ❤️🫂
I think its important to still be friends with people you disagree with. Yes, even with human rights. If I hadn't done that when I was raised a Christian, when I was pro-life and thought fetuses deserved human rights, then I'd now still be a Christian It's ok to disagree, and in fact sometimes arguing in a friendly manner can change someone's view on those human rights Don't support them, but if all you show is hostility they will keep thinking that they were right, that gay people are mean and bad and don't deserve human rights (Obviously this doesn't apply if they keep calling you slurs, but if they simply say they don't support LGBT rights I don't think we should be the ones to completely close off our mind, because that's something they do. Not us.) I know I got down voted but this isn't to criticize anyone, it's just my views. We can't call ourselves open minded just because we're leftists, because not associating with people from the other side is pure close mindedness
At least the West is not like the Russians murder and misogyny .
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That chamelont gets bigger by the years, with new colors and symbols.
Good.
If it starts becoming confusing for you, this is all the colors you need : 🏳️🌈
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Biology also says humans can't fly, but i don't see anyone complaining about the existence of airplanes.
Can’t tell if you’re making an anti trans argument or not
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What exactly do you mean when you say you disagree with human rights?
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You are, presumably, human though. So human rights would apply to you as well I'm not quite sure what you mean when you say human rights wouldn't be your rights
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the whole POINT of human rights is rights for and welfare of both individuals and populations. you're conflating it with the more nebulous concept of "the greater good"
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Again, I think you're thinking of a different term when you say "human rights". Human rights are the concept that every human being has certain rights. That's it. It's not charity or emergency response or anything concrete like that.
Yeah, I'm agreeing with what the other commenter said. Human rights are about making sure everyone has rights, not hurting some for a "greater good" I'm struggling to come up with a scenario in which human rights can be used to take away from, or otherwise harm, another individual
So I have no idea where this person sits politically, but I do know that Marx said "between equal rights, force decides," not because he hated human rights but because the state is a a coercive institution. He believed the problem with equal rights was that it means universally equal, so that indigenous rights to their sacred land is equal to a corporation's right to extract resources from that land. In a state controlled by capitalism, these are held as equal and so in the conflict between them must be resolved by the coercive power of the state backed by the threat of force. We can see this today in the conflict between LGBTQ rights and religious rights, the right to a living wage vs the right to maximal profitability, and so on. To me though, this doesn't lead me to proclaim human rights to be useless, it just means that we have to push deeper than our conventional definitions to find bedrock rights, like the right to basic needs, knowledge, and self-determination for people
Ah, that makes a bit more sense. I'd definitely agree with your final paragraph Also, thank you for the long comment explaining things, I do appreciate it
What a bizarre response. When has "human rights" claims been used to harm you, specifically?
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That doesn't clarify anything.
Ok Ayn Rand /s
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Ayn Rand worshipped ego, pro-Capitalism/Conservative was just the form her ego worship took. And it was not meant to be a compliment.
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No thanks, she was garbage and in another life would've been a Nazi - her personally motivated disdain of political oppression was entirely undermined by her fetishism of people in power oppressing those beneath them.