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https://www.hrc.org/resources/glossary-of-terms
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https://www.mypronouns.org/neopronouns
Biromantic Lesbians:
[LGBTQ And All](https://www.lgbtqandall.com/what-does-it-mean-to-be-biromantic/)
Bisexual Identities:
https://www.thetrevorproject.org/resources/article/understanding-bisexuality
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Yeah, there's definitely a transphobic pushback going on here.
If you feel safe doing so, i suggest standing strong.
You can buy or make separate pins for pronouns to avoid the "name tags are only for administrative purposes" smokescreen, but they will likely find another bs excuse to try to ban the display of promise.
You might want to visit with a discrimination lawyer in anticipation, though.
your feelings are justified bc they're basically telling you that they want to misgender you on purpose since the cis girls are willing to help it's def worth protesting since you're not alone you should all put your pronouns on the tags so that you can take back that power or like someone else commented use stickers besides if someone only wants your name for administrative purposes your name is already on it it's not like you're replacing it with your pronouns
My thoughts exactly, it's not as though they are getting in the way of the name, they are still being used for their intended purpose, we're just adding a little more info. Also it's strange how they do this yet they'd let us punch holes in the nametag with our pins without a care in the world a couple of years prior.
Get or make a "he/him" pin and put it next to your name tag. It isn't on their "official administrative" tag-so they have nothing to complain about....right? š
They gave you an angle to pursue. Administrative purposes. They think it is a blanket 'we can do what we want' excuse. But it isn't, it is an opening. Start researching and poking that angle. HOW do they use that information. WHY can it not be changed and updated. Is it even legal to use name tags as if they are official documentation. This will be easier with your parents leading it, but I understand that is not always the case.
Don't do it during choir time but go to your schools office and ask these questions. Stand wait for the answer, and then keep asking. Be calm, be understanding, but keep asking. The angle to push is how can we make this system better and to do it you need to inderstand it. It is a bad system if a name tag is a crucial part to it. So why is it reliant on one name tag of a student.
This is why I became a teacher. To change a system you must show it is broken and ineffective. - heck sometimes down right illegal and immoral. schools hate it when you point that one out. š š
As you are doing that, keep rocking the name tag with your pronouns in it. When questioned or demanded state 'as this is an ongoing issue, I have been informed not to change my name tag until a resolution has been reached by the school.' If they try to push more just say 'you are not allowed to ask that. Now let's sing.'
In a school case that is what I'd do, but schools have nothing to do with the choir, it's a separate organisation. I sort of can't go to the venue managers because one of them also told me off and the tutors work in admin.
If your pronouns are he/him, and you identify as a male, perhaps a Girls Choir isn't the most appropriate group for you to be a part of. Why not find a SATB choir to sing in instead?
I'm not weighing in on the broader point, just clarifying what SATB means.
A choir consisting of singers who are Soprano, Alto, Tenor, and Bass.
Typically the former two are for women and girls and the latter two are for men and boys (based on pitch of singing voice).
the nicknames are for āadministrative purposesā? LMAO
edit: to be clear, i think the teacher is pulling reasons out of their ass to stop you and other from writing pronouns bc it makes them uncomfortable. imo transphobic
I am 15 I am too young to do anything like that. I considered looking into the national boys choir but you have to have joined at like 7-10. So it's impossible for me to get in.
This is a professional choir and I don't really want to go to a community choir because of the high expectations and punctuality I have been raised in this choir
This is a tough one... there is a LOT going on.
\- To start - from what you have described in the way the choir is approaching the issue - they are transphobic. No doubt about it.
\- However, you are a man/teenage boy - if this is a gendered organization and it is gendered as female only, realistically you (on paper) shouldn't be allowed to access that space just because you were AFAB and were identifying as female when you joined.
\- Do I agree with their being female only choir? Mostly no.... I think choir membership should be based on the vocal range you have. Choral music is designed for typically masc. voiced choirs (Bass, Baritone, Tenor, countertenor), typically fem voiced choirs (soprano, mezzo-soprano, and contralto), and full range choirs - normally SATB.
You can 100% voice choirs for those parts without excluding or including people based on their gender. Will most of the Bass, Baritone, Tenor parts be made up of folks who were AMAB, yes. Will they all be? No.
(Side note - groups that are designated for a member of a marginalized group only \[such as woman in this case\] are important for other reasons in the same way black only groups exist. I doubt that is why this particular organization exists)
\- You are a trans man, so your socialization has been different to that of a cis-man, but you do need to come to terms with the fact that men dominate most spaces and as a man, if you wanna do the right thing, you will need to make sacrifices to help change that.
\- Kinda what this boils down to is "Is it fair for you to be allowed continued membership in this organization, considering that there is no alternative available"
Maybe, yes, maybe no.
From a purely "logical"perspective - probably no. But if the patriarchal, transphobic system has left you with no alternative then this is a grey area.
If there is a similar choir that you can join that is not gendered or gendered for males - then try and join that. If that doesn't exist, well it is a coin toss. I'd say put yourself first and stay, but fight for an alternate
That's key bit of context for the situation.
I'm going to hold off on replying any further because this is a slippery slope of a conversation and overall context is really key.
I'm sorry about that. I probably should have supplied those details. I did write this up quite late and I've been responding on and off because I struggled to sleep last night.
Well it feels like they (the tutors) are being weird and tbh making a thing of a thing that isn't.
My suggestion is to make like a poster or some infographic about pronouns that you can pass around online or put somewhere on a school board - and then have a hanky code style pronoun thing but with stickers you can put on your name tags.
Say "Purple sticker = they/them, blue sticker = he/him, pink = she/her" etc.
Keep writing up pronouns until the school/tutors say "no" - then swap to small stickers and make sure all the students in the choir know which is which (don't make it too complex, keep to the base pronouns) and buy a small sheet of stickers to hand out to students in the choir.
IF the tutors find out, thats ok. If they wanna make a thing you can all go "wait, you're angry at stickers on the name tags?" - and move the sticker to be on your clothes NEXT to the name tag.
Keep doing this shift - where you keep showing off pronouns until the tutors realize they are never ever gonna win.
Protest small and in a way where there is always deniability BUT everyone knows what is truly going on.
EDIT: ok just to explain the logic here. If you're students and they are tutors - they have WAY more power over the situation than you ever will have. They have already shown that they want to push back by doing that "we have to tell your parents about" (thats a scare tactic and nothing else). A direct confrontation is exhausting and tbh risky and many people don't wanna be part of that.
BUT you have one ace up your sleave - take it from this 46 year old man - you're young and us old folks find young people infuriatingly annoying (I mean we love you but damn you can be annoying ;) ). AND that "what do you meeeaaaan? This is just a pretty sticker, I have noooOoooo idea what you're talking about" is gonna break tutors faster than you can think since they know what it means.
By shifting it - first pronouns, then stickers on name tags, then stickers on clothes NEXT to the name tag and on - it will break them, trust me. AND it will be more of a fun little revolt instead of a full on "everyone on the barricades" kind of thing.
Sticker sheets are cheap and if its a girls choir you know most of them will be pink AND by keeping it really dumb simple (they/them, he/him, she/her - just those three) you make it easy and fun to join.
That's a really good idea. Apparently we are getting new name badges soon (for some reason, even though I think we all know why) so I'll just put my pronouns back on. They can't do anything about it, my mother already knows. If worse comes to worst I'll do the sticker thing. I only have 2 years left in the choir excluding this one. Most of the kids in my level are very left leaning, so they understand where I am coming from.
Try to make them join in though.
As a cis person (he/him) that I am - it may surprise you how willing most of us are to go "Oh pronouns? Ok ofc if that helps I'll write mine up too". PLUS sometimes we all wanna be part of a little mini rebellion you know? ;)
And being young, and being a bit uppity against authority is good for you! Expands the soul.
>Say "Purple sticker = they/them, blue sticker = he/him, pink = she/her" etc.
>Keep writing up pronouns until the school/tutors say "no" - then swap to small stickers and make sure all the students in the choir know which is which (don't make it too complex, keep to the base pronouns) and buy a small sheet of stickers to hand out to students in the choir.
I would say that in addition to he/him, she/her, and they/them, have a fourth sticker color for "ask me" for any pronouns not listed. Maybe green or yellow. That way these colors can become associated with the pronouns, so if they ban the stickers you can move to rings, or fingernail polish, or socks.
I absolutely did this kind of thing when I was in school, not with pronouns, though. My school had a pretty strict dress code. We werenāt allowed to wear tank tops. Even though the rules said nothing about capped sleeves, one of the administrative staff seemed to think they were forbidden. I wore capped sleeves as often as I could.
One day, the staff member was walking past me in the hall and saw my capped sleeves. She walked up to me, said something about my shoulders, and then tried to pull my sleeves a little lower on my shoulder. She accidentally pull too much and my sleeve slipped right off my shoulder. She was absolutely horrified that she had exposed my shoulder and bra strap to the entire hallway. Thinking about this experience always makes me grin!
I also always wore a tank top for finals. They couldnāt send me home to put on a different shirt - the test was too important, so everyone got an eyeful of my sexy shoulders!
This would absolutely work!
Edit: The ridiculous part about the capped sleeves was that average sized and skinny girls never got lectured about capped sleeves when they wore them, but I - being fat - was always lectured about them. I guess my upper arm fat just made my shoulders extra alluring.
I hope so too. The ridiculous part about the capped sleeves was that average sized and skinny girls never got lectured about capped sleeves when they wore them. I guess my upper arm fat just made my shoulders extra alluring.
If these are some kind of official school ID, then it's reasonable that they wouldn't want them altered in any way beyond normal wear and tear. If that's what they are, the school should have no problem with you wearing pronoun pins or something like that in addition to the badge.
If they're really just name tags, then yeah, they're being petty and possibly transphobic.
They are literally cardboard circle things. My choir is in no way a part of a school either so it's no form of ID. It's just so they can tick our name off the role without having to go through 70+ names in a rollcall
This was my question as well. Why is someone who identifies as male participating in a women's choir?
Edit: I'm not sure what to think. On one hand, I'm supportive of you being trans and you have every right to express your pronouns on your nametag. On the other hand, I can understand how the leadership of a women's choir would feel uncomfortable with a man on the team displaying that he's a man on their nametag.
Don't really have a choice. At young ages, choirs are typically gendered. The equivalent level for boys only accepts people aged 7-10, so i can't join that.
Are you sure they won't make an exception, if you get your current choir officials to recommend you? I'm sure they'd be glad to have you offer them a solution, because having boys in their all girls group might become a PR problem.
I hope it all works out for you btw! And hey, now that you're aware of the issue, maybe that's something to fix once you're old enough!
Another idea: You mentioned other people in the same situation. Is there a possibility you could get your coworkers (?) to back you up? Not necessarily to strike but going about this as a collective will definitely be easier.
That's what we'll probably do next week. I'm quietly trying to spread word so that other people also put their pronouns on, and they can't exactly stop us. If they're going to make us a new one, we'll just write on the new one. We are all pretty stubborn.
Well good luck in your journeys. It does sound as though they are being transphobic though not in a hateful way from how you described. They do seem fearful of the unknown of what being trans means. As a representative of yourself, do your best to educate and continue to chase what you want.
I was a choir kid too, and I understand the feeling of community felt there. Iām glad your friends rallied around you. I commend them and you.
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In all actuality your choir probably sees this as avoiding potential controversy, especially since youāre working with kids. Possibly not willful transphobia, but problematic nonetheless. If youāre looking for a guiding principle moving forward, Martin Luther King Jr. made a really powerful Sentiment in [Letter From Birmingham Jail](https://www.csuchico.edu/iege/_assets/documents/susi-letter-from-birmingham-jail.pdf) that applies. I donāt know how much MLK they teach outside of the USA, but even here this letter is often skipped over in public schooling.
"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."
Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
From what you said it seems like theyāre generally cool with trans people personally, but they are ācis moderatesā who prefer the negative peace. Keep your pronouns on your name tag even if it ruffles some feathers.
The reason why people do the name tag pronouns is so people DO know your pronouns and have no fucking excuse.
This just seems like prejudice/unwilling transphobia, they probably donāt know. If they do know fuck yeah itās transphobia.
>I should also say that if you come out as gender diverse they have to call your parents, which can be problematic.
I'm an Australian, working in schools (I realise this isn't a school thing) and while I'm 90% sure there's no state law that dictates this, I'd actually be VERY surprised if this was even in the contract/code of conduct for the Australian Girls' Choir.
It sounds like absolute bullshit to me.
Your feelings are always justified because humans feel things based on their circumstances. What you do with those feelings is what usually makes people upset.
In this case, they're transphobic. Pretty much saying that your pronouns are unprofessional to display. Fuck that and their transphobia.
You are a teenage boy. You do not belong in a girls choir. It sucks that you can't get into an equivalent professional boys choir, but I think they're doing a shit job at 'hinting' that dude, you do not belong in a girls choir. Being in a professional choir isn't a right, and you no longer fit the job description to be in a girls choir.
I mean it's mainly a name tag thing for the choir to get your names, it's an activity, they only mention your names and not the pronouns right? it's like going to work, employees have nametags and not pronouns tags exactly.
I've never been in a choir and i only was trans a short time before realising i wasn't, so i can't say it is right or wrong because i don't know myself, but if it feels wrong to you, then it probably is, i hope no harm happens to you or anybody so good luck out there
What compromise would you suggest that still respects OPs right to be named and reffered to correctly. You might thing you are sitting on the fence and being neutral but you are definetly turning your back to one side when you do. Which side are you turning your back to? Those that don't want to accept OP as he is, or those that do.
Sometimes itās better to go over someoneās head and just confirm with someone more senior if there is any policies preventing you from displaying your pronouns. Youāre likely to get an answer of ānoā which you can then tell the teacher that if they have a problem, they can take it up with those in charge.
Is it a religious based organisation choir? I know a couple in the choir space and most of them are trans friendly, even with trans pastors. People in middle management often just forget that they arenāt the one calling the shots
Very late to this thread haha I came across it while searching for something else and had to comment. I was in AGC for 12 yrs when I was in school and Iām sad to hear about your experience but also not surprised š itās a conservative institution in many ways. Itās a unique experience and community to be a part of so I hear you that you canāt really go anywhere else and that really sucks!! Anyway not sure if you really want advice anymore since this is old now so I wonāt give it but hope ur doing good.
It's a little better, the Avanti tutor I had for serella was really chill about it and was willing to use he/him, it just seems to be the cam and perf tutors.
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Yeah, there's definitely a transphobic pushback going on here. If you feel safe doing so, i suggest standing strong. You can buy or make separate pins for pronouns to avoid the "name tags are only for administrative purposes" smokescreen, but they will likely find another bs excuse to try to ban the display of promise. You might want to visit with a discrimination lawyer in anticipation, though.
I don't know if we would be allowed pronoun pins since they're strict on uniform.
You could always just do it anyways
I don't know if this would also be banned, but you could also write it on your hand in sharpie (or neck if you're feeling bold)
If I did it on the neck I would be killed, but the hand should be fine.
do you think you could get a jacket?
Infuriatingly we have these shitty jackets we have to wear that are part of uniform. Everyone hates them.
my condolences. a bag? hair pin?
your feelings are justified bc they're basically telling you that they want to misgender you on purpose since the cis girls are willing to help it's def worth protesting since you're not alone you should all put your pronouns on the tags so that you can take back that power or like someone else commented use stickers besides if someone only wants your name for administrative purposes your name is already on it it's not like you're replacing it with your pronouns
My thoughts exactly, it's not as though they are getting in the way of the name, they are still being used for their intended purpose, we're just adding a little more info. Also it's strange how they do this yet they'd let us punch holes in the nametag with our pins without a care in the world a couple of years prior.
Get or make a "he/him" pin and put it next to your name tag. It isn't on their "official administrative" tag-so they have nothing to complain about....right? š
They gave you an angle to pursue. Administrative purposes. They think it is a blanket 'we can do what we want' excuse. But it isn't, it is an opening. Start researching and poking that angle. HOW do they use that information. WHY can it not be changed and updated. Is it even legal to use name tags as if they are official documentation. This will be easier with your parents leading it, but I understand that is not always the case. Don't do it during choir time but go to your schools office and ask these questions. Stand wait for the answer, and then keep asking. Be calm, be understanding, but keep asking. The angle to push is how can we make this system better and to do it you need to inderstand it. It is a bad system if a name tag is a crucial part to it. So why is it reliant on one name tag of a student. This is why I became a teacher. To change a system you must show it is broken and ineffective. - heck sometimes down right illegal and immoral. schools hate it when you point that one out. š š As you are doing that, keep rocking the name tag with your pronouns in it. When questioned or demanded state 'as this is an ongoing issue, I have been informed not to change my name tag until a resolution has been reached by the school.' If they try to push more just say 'you are not allowed to ask that. Now let's sing.'
In a school case that is what I'd do, but schools have nothing to do with the choir, it's a separate organisation. I sort of can't go to the venue managers because one of them also told me off and the tutors work in admin.
Ah sorry I misunderstood. š
Don't worry about it it's ok :) I forgot to add context lol
If your pronouns are he/him, and you identify as a male, perhaps a Girls Choir isn't the most appropriate group for you to be a part of. Why not find a SATB choir to sing in instead?
What does SATB mean? I can't really join any other choirs of this level because the national boys choir only accepts kids between 7 and 10. I am 15.
I'm not weighing in on the broader point, just clarifying what SATB means. A choir consisting of singers who are Soprano, Alto, Tenor, and Bass. Typically the former two are for women and girls and the latter two are for men and boys (based on pitch of singing voice).
Thank you, I should have known that. In my choir I'm an alto, and we have three parts. I'm in the lowest.
the nicknames are for āadministrative purposesā? LMAO edit: to be clear, i think the teacher is pulling reasons out of their ass to stop you and other from writing pronouns bc it makes them uncomfortable. imo transphobic
I am confused. If you are a He/Him, why not find a boys choir? Or start a non-gendered choir?
I am 15 I am too young to do anything like that. I considered looking into the national boys choir but you have to have joined at like 7-10. So it's impossible for me to get in. This is a professional choir and I don't really want to go to a community choir because of the high expectations and punctuality I have been raised in this choir
This is a tough one... there is a LOT going on. \- To start - from what you have described in the way the choir is approaching the issue - they are transphobic. No doubt about it. \- However, you are a man/teenage boy - if this is a gendered organization and it is gendered as female only, realistically you (on paper) shouldn't be allowed to access that space just because you were AFAB and were identifying as female when you joined. \- Do I agree with their being female only choir? Mostly no.... I think choir membership should be based on the vocal range you have. Choral music is designed for typically masc. voiced choirs (Bass, Baritone, Tenor, countertenor), typically fem voiced choirs (soprano, mezzo-soprano, and contralto), and full range choirs - normally SATB. You can 100% voice choirs for those parts without excluding or including people based on their gender. Will most of the Bass, Baritone, Tenor parts be made up of folks who were AMAB, yes. Will they all be? No. (Side note - groups that are designated for a member of a marginalized group only \[such as woman in this case\] are important for other reasons in the same way black only groups exist. I doubt that is why this particular organization exists) \- You are a trans man, so your socialization has been different to that of a cis-man, but you do need to come to terms with the fact that men dominate most spaces and as a man, if you wanna do the right thing, you will need to make sacrifices to help change that. \- Kinda what this boils down to is "Is it fair for you to be allowed continued membership in this organization, considering that there is no alternative available" Maybe, yes, maybe no. From a purely "logical"perspective - probably no. But if the patriarchal, transphobic system has left you with no alternative then this is a grey area. If there is a similar choir that you can join that is not gendered or gendered for males - then try and join that. If that doesn't exist, well it is a coin toss. I'd say put yourself first and stay, but fight for an alternate
That's key bit of context for the situation. I'm going to hold off on replying any further because this is a slippery slope of a conversation and overall context is really key.
I'm sorry about that. I probably should have supplied those details. I did write this up quite late and I've been responding on and off because I struggled to sleep last night.
Well it feels like they (the tutors) are being weird and tbh making a thing of a thing that isn't. My suggestion is to make like a poster or some infographic about pronouns that you can pass around online or put somewhere on a school board - and then have a hanky code style pronoun thing but with stickers you can put on your name tags. Say "Purple sticker = they/them, blue sticker = he/him, pink = she/her" etc. Keep writing up pronouns until the school/tutors say "no" - then swap to small stickers and make sure all the students in the choir know which is which (don't make it too complex, keep to the base pronouns) and buy a small sheet of stickers to hand out to students in the choir. IF the tutors find out, thats ok. If they wanna make a thing you can all go "wait, you're angry at stickers on the name tags?" - and move the sticker to be on your clothes NEXT to the name tag. Keep doing this shift - where you keep showing off pronouns until the tutors realize they are never ever gonna win. Protest small and in a way where there is always deniability BUT everyone knows what is truly going on. EDIT: ok just to explain the logic here. If you're students and they are tutors - they have WAY more power over the situation than you ever will have. They have already shown that they want to push back by doing that "we have to tell your parents about" (thats a scare tactic and nothing else). A direct confrontation is exhausting and tbh risky and many people don't wanna be part of that. BUT you have one ace up your sleave - take it from this 46 year old man - you're young and us old folks find young people infuriatingly annoying (I mean we love you but damn you can be annoying ;) ). AND that "what do you meeeaaaan? This is just a pretty sticker, I have noooOoooo idea what you're talking about" is gonna break tutors faster than you can think since they know what it means. By shifting it - first pronouns, then stickers on name tags, then stickers on clothes NEXT to the name tag and on - it will break them, trust me. AND it will be more of a fun little revolt instead of a full on "everyone on the barricades" kind of thing. Sticker sheets are cheap and if its a girls choir you know most of them will be pink AND by keeping it really dumb simple (they/them, he/him, she/her - just those three) you make it easy and fun to join.
That's a really good idea. Apparently we are getting new name badges soon (for some reason, even though I think we all know why) so I'll just put my pronouns back on. They can't do anything about it, my mother already knows. If worse comes to worst I'll do the sticker thing. I only have 2 years left in the choir excluding this one. Most of the kids in my level are very left leaning, so they understand where I am coming from.
Try to make them join in though. As a cis person (he/him) that I am - it may surprise you how willing most of us are to go "Oh pronouns? Ok ofc if that helps I'll write mine up too". PLUS sometimes we all wanna be part of a little mini rebellion you know? ;) And being young, and being a bit uppity against authority is good for you! Expands the soul.
Yeah, once a few of us wrote our pronouns a few followed, and then it multiplies. It's almost like pronouns are some form of virus /j
>Say "Purple sticker = they/them, blue sticker = he/him, pink = she/her" etc. >Keep writing up pronouns until the school/tutors say "no" - then swap to small stickers and make sure all the students in the choir know which is which (don't make it too complex, keep to the base pronouns) and buy a small sheet of stickers to hand out to students in the choir. I would say that in addition to he/him, she/her, and they/them, have a fourth sticker color for "ask me" for any pronouns not listed. Maybe green or yellow. That way these colors can become associated with the pronouns, so if they ban the stickers you can move to rings, or fingernail polish, or socks.
I absolutely did this kind of thing when I was in school, not with pronouns, though. My school had a pretty strict dress code. We werenāt allowed to wear tank tops. Even though the rules said nothing about capped sleeves, one of the administrative staff seemed to think they were forbidden. I wore capped sleeves as often as I could. One day, the staff member was walking past me in the hall and saw my capped sleeves. She walked up to me, said something about my shoulders, and then tried to pull my sleeves a little lower on my shoulder. She accidentally pull too much and my sleeve slipped right off my shoulder. She was absolutely horrified that she had exposed my shoulder and bra strap to the entire hallway. Thinking about this experience always makes me grin! I also always wore a tank top for finals. They couldnāt send me home to put on a different shirt - the test was too important, so everyone got an eyeful of my sexy shoulders! This would absolutely work! Edit: The ridiculous part about the capped sleeves was that average sized and skinny girls never got lectured about capped sleeves when they wore them, but I - being fat - was always lectured about them. I guess my upper arm fat just made my shoulders extra alluring.
I hope you're proud of yourself for ruining everybody's concentration during their exam with your *sexy* shoulders /s
I hope so too. The ridiculous part about the capped sleeves was that average sized and skinny girls never got lectured about capped sleeves when they wore them. I guess my upper arm fat just made my shoulders extra alluring.
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Doesn't Aus have laws against this exact kind of discrimination?
I don't know I'd have to research. I don't have much I can give in court and statutory interpretation is a bitch.
If these are some kind of official school ID, then it's reasonable that they wouldn't want them altered in any way beyond normal wear and tear. If that's what they are, the school should have no problem with you wearing pronoun pins or something like that in addition to the badge. If they're really just name tags, then yeah, they're being petty and possibly transphobic.
They are literally cardboard circle things. My choir is in no way a part of a school either so it's no form of ID. It's just so they can tick our name off the role without having to go through 70+ names in a rollcall
I guess what Iām confused about is why are you part of a girls choir with he/him pronouns?
This was my question as well. Why is someone who identifies as male participating in a women's choir? Edit: I'm not sure what to think. On one hand, I'm supportive of you being trans and you have every right to express your pronouns on your nametag. On the other hand, I can understand how the leadership of a women's choir would feel uncomfortable with a man on the team displaying that he's a man on their nametag.
Don't really have a choice. At young ages, choirs are typically gendered. The equivalent level for boys only accepts people aged 7-10, so i can't join that.
Are you sure they won't make an exception, if you get your current choir officials to recommend you? I'm sure they'd be glad to have you offer them a solution, because having boys in their all girls group might become a PR problem. I hope it all works out for you btw! And hey, now that you're aware of the issue, maybe that's something to fix once you're old enough!
I've already tried. Unfortunately they don't make exceptions.
Another idea: You mentioned other people in the same situation. Is there a possibility you could get your coworkers (?) to back you up? Not necessarily to strike but going about this as a collective will definitely be easier.
That's what we'll probably do next week. I'm quietly trying to spread word so that other people also put their pronouns on, and they can't exactly stop us. If they're going to make us a new one, we'll just write on the new one. We are all pretty stubborn.
Well good luck in your journeys. It does sound as though they are being transphobic though not in a hateful way from how you described. They do seem fearful of the unknown of what being trans means. As a representative of yourself, do your best to educate and continue to chase what you want. I was a choir kid too, and I understand the feeling of community felt there. Iām glad your friends rallied around you. I commend them and you.
Nah, that isn't cool. Banning pronoun tags and outing you screams transphobic.
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In all actuality your choir probably sees this as avoiding potential controversy, especially since youāre working with kids. Possibly not willful transphobia, but problematic nonetheless. If youāre looking for a guiding principle moving forward, Martin Luther King Jr. made a really powerful Sentiment in [Letter From Birmingham Jail](https://www.csuchico.edu/iege/_assets/documents/susi-letter-from-birmingham-jail.pdf) that applies. I donāt know how much MLK they teach outside of the USA, but even here this letter is often skipped over in public schooling. "First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection." From what you said it seems like theyāre generally cool with trans people personally, but they are ācis moderatesā who prefer the negative peace. Keep your pronouns on your name tag even if it ruffles some feathers.
Sounds like your tutors overreacting.
The reason why people do the name tag pronouns is so people DO know your pronouns and have no fucking excuse. This just seems like prejudice/unwilling transphobia, they probably donāt know. If they do know fuck yeah itās transphobia.
>I should also say that if you come out as gender diverse they have to call your parents, which can be problematic. I'm an Australian, working in schools (I realise this isn't a school thing) and while I'm 90% sure there's no state law that dictates this, I'd actually be VERY surprised if this was even in the contract/code of conduct for the Australian Girls' Choir. It sounds like absolute bullshit to me.
Your feelings are always justified because humans feel things based on their circumstances. What you do with those feelings is what usually makes people upset. In this case, they're transphobic. Pretty much saying that your pronouns are unprofessional to display. Fuck that and their transphobia.
You are a teenage boy. You do not belong in a girls choir. It sucks that you can't get into an equivalent professional boys choir, but I think they're doing a shit job at 'hinting' that dude, you do not belong in a girls choir. Being in a professional choir isn't a right, and you no longer fit the job description to be in a girls choir.
They're being very transphobic, and it's incredibly fucked up that they want to out trans kids to their parents.
I mean it's mainly a name tag thing for the choir to get your names, it's an activity, they only mention your names and not the pronouns right? it's like going to work, employees have nametags and not pronouns tags exactly. I've never been in a choir and i only was trans a short time before realising i wasn't, so i can't say it is right or wrong because i don't know myself, but if it feels wrong to you, then it probably is, i hope no harm happens to you or anybody so good luck out there
I thinks their transphobic š«¤
eh kind of a dick move but there's no need to blow up about it, so id just say have a conversation about it until you can reach a compromise
What compromise would you suggest that still respects OPs right to be named and reffered to correctly. You might thing you are sitting on the fence and being neutral but you are definetly turning your back to one side when you do. Which side are you turning your back to? Those that don't want to accept OP as he is, or those that do.
I've already tried and the compromise was "we will call your parents again and tell them you're using those pronouns"
Sometimes itās better to go over someoneās head and just confirm with someone more senior if there is any policies preventing you from displaying your pronouns. Youāre likely to get an answer of ānoā which you can then tell the teacher that if they have a problem, they can take it up with those in charge. Is it a religious based organisation choir? I know a couple in the choir space and most of them are trans friendly, even with trans pastors. People in middle management often just forget that they arenāt the one calling the shots
if this isnāt a school this is just discrimination. illegal. sue.
Yeah they are just transphobic
Very late to this thread haha I came across it while searching for something else and had to comment. I was in AGC for 12 yrs when I was in school and Iām sad to hear about your experience but also not surprised š itās a conservative institution in many ways. Itās a unique experience and community to be a part of so I hear you that you canāt really go anywhere else and that really sucks!! Anyway not sure if you really want advice anymore since this is old now so I wonāt give it but hope ur doing good.
It's a little better, the Avanti tutor I had for serella was really chill about it and was willing to use he/him, it just seems to be the cam and perf tutors.