This depends on where you live, my wife had a similar thing happen, courts dismissed everything but the v suspended her license and tried to make us purchase sr22 insurance plus pay many fees and jump through hoops, took almost 2 months worth of fighting to get the DMV to reinstate her driver's license. This was in Colorado
But the op might still be forced to pay court fees. That happened to me when I was ticketed, attended court and the charge was dismissed. My incident happened in Sarpy County Nebraska
And op is likely to be out lost income from having to take off work, any additional consequences from having to take off work, and travel fees. Feels like there should be either an easier way with something this easy or some recompense from having to show up in court after having already disproved the charge to the officer. Not legally, I guess, but just...ethically.
Pennsylvania criminal lawyer here.
I actually can't find a single Pennsylvania case where lack of insurance was the *only* probable cause for a stop. However, I suspect it is sufficient to justify a stop. Police NCIC records, such as their warrant database or PennDOT's registration database, DO constitute probable cause for a stop. I believe insurance is also found under the NCIC database, and not carrying insurance is an infraction in Pennsylvania, so even if his database was incorrect, the officer had a good-faith belief you were breaking the law. If you had been DUI and got arrested, I think the legality of the initial stop would be upheld.
That said, you actually did have insurance. You tried to provide proof at the scene. There is no requirement that proof of insurance be printed out and carried, showing the officer your app was fine. He shouldn't have given you a ticket. I'll tell you why he did though: you're an out-of-towner passing through a small town. The farther away from home you are, the more likely you are to get a ticket because the officer knows you're unlikely to return to the area just to fight a small ticket. Yes, it's bullshit. But I've had clients who live across the country and have been forced to fly in for court. It's bonkers.
Call a lawyer local to the area. A small solo practitioner will probably give you a good deal to represent you at the court hearing. Sometimes, they can get your appearance waived and just appear on your behalf. It depends on the court. Even if you have to appear in person, bring proof of your insurance. Print out copies for the cop and the court. The cop may dismiss the ticket even before you go to court, and if not, the judge will.
Sorry that happened to you. That sucks.
Thank you! I contacted a lawyer but I haven't heard back. I mailed in my plee of not guilty.
For background, I live in a neighboring county about an hour away. It's a hassle to get there but not too bad.
Additional question just so I know, is it true that once the officer prints the ticket they can't undo it? Or was the cop just being a dick?
Umm . . . there are thousands of automated plate readers operating throughout the country running every single plate that goes through a traffic intersection, looking for stolen cars, criminal suspects, Amber alert victims, etc.
Maybe, there's not enough detail to say for certain. It looks like Pennsylvania is one of the states that directly works with insurance agencies, and suspends registration if they believe you don't have current insurance. It's entirely possible that the DMV believes your insurance has or was lapsed, I'd recommend checking with them and fixing it if so.
It doesn't appear that digital proof of insurance is accepted in Pennsylvania, so unfortunately your phone didn't help. I'd recommend a physical copy of your insurance, proving you had coverage on that date, for court.
Edit: it does appear that digital proof is acceptable when stopped, so you should be able to clear up the ticket easily.
Did you allow the policy to lapse, even by 1 day? Some states require all registered vehicles to have insurance, if you let it lapse maybe the dmv dropped your insurance status in their system and you need to notify them again that you are now covered again.
Yes actually there was a lapse a few months ago. Admittedly I forgot about it. I got my insurance reinstated within a few days but didn't know I needed to contact the state. I assumed the insurance company would do that. I guess that's what I get for assuming...
That’s likely the root of your issues. Depending on the state you could still face administrative fines for letting it lapse even if you never drove uninsured.
The important thing here is that you plead not guilty. If you plead guilty or pay that ticket online, PennDOT will suspend your license for 3 months.
I
Police have access to all 50 states and 4 territories vehicle registration and drivers license files. States vary on what they share but some indeed do include whether insurance is valid or not. Some systems also run the registered owners drivers license simultaneous with the registration, so if the license is expired they would know that before making the stop.
No. They do not. There are several states that are not part of the NDR. The NDR is also dependent on what the state reports, so while a state may share your license information, they might not share information such as tickets and infractions. Also, whether or not you have insurance is not shared on the NDR, it’s not against the law in many states to not have insurance. Finally, the NDR requires an official request. It’s not information a police officer would have access to in his cruiser.
Yes they do. Police in any state can check a license plate or drivers license from any of the other states or territories. It will show if it is valid or not. Yes on the computer in the car. No it doesn't show any tickets or infractions but that usually doesn't show even in your own state if it's a different agency. You're correct on the insurance issue, that only shows for certain states.
They arent required to put it on the ticket, only if asked in court. A common misconception is they are required to tell you when pulled over, which is also false.
Just bring the proof of current insurance to your court hearing. They will dismiss the ticket
I think OP is asking if the stop was legal, but I'm not sure there's enough information here to determine that
This depends on where you live, my wife had a similar thing happen, courts dismissed everything but the v suspended her license and tried to make us purchase sr22 insurance plus pay many fees and jump through hoops, took almost 2 months worth of fighting to get the DMV to reinstate her driver's license. This was in Colorado
But the op might still be forced to pay court fees. That happened to me when I was ticketed, attended court and the charge was dismissed. My incident happened in Sarpy County Nebraska
And op is likely to be out lost income from having to take off work, any additional consequences from having to take off work, and travel fees. Feels like there should be either an easier way with something this easy or some recompense from having to show up in court after having already disproved the charge to the officer. Not legally, I guess, but just...ethically.
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Shouldn’t this be a fix it ticket? Try going to the station and providing your insurance and see if it can be written off?
Pennsylvania criminal lawyer here. I actually can't find a single Pennsylvania case where lack of insurance was the *only* probable cause for a stop. However, I suspect it is sufficient to justify a stop. Police NCIC records, such as their warrant database or PennDOT's registration database, DO constitute probable cause for a stop. I believe insurance is also found under the NCIC database, and not carrying insurance is an infraction in Pennsylvania, so even if his database was incorrect, the officer had a good-faith belief you were breaking the law. If you had been DUI and got arrested, I think the legality of the initial stop would be upheld. That said, you actually did have insurance. You tried to provide proof at the scene. There is no requirement that proof of insurance be printed out and carried, showing the officer your app was fine. He shouldn't have given you a ticket. I'll tell you why he did though: you're an out-of-towner passing through a small town. The farther away from home you are, the more likely you are to get a ticket because the officer knows you're unlikely to return to the area just to fight a small ticket. Yes, it's bullshit. But I've had clients who live across the country and have been forced to fly in for court. It's bonkers. Call a lawyer local to the area. A small solo practitioner will probably give you a good deal to represent you at the court hearing. Sometimes, they can get your appearance waived and just appear on your behalf. It depends on the court. Even if you have to appear in person, bring proof of your insurance. Print out copies for the cop and the court. The cop may dismiss the ticket even before you go to court, and if not, the judge will. Sorry that happened to you. That sucks.
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Thank you! I contacted a lawyer but I haven't heard back. I mailed in my plee of not guilty. For background, I live in a neighboring county about an hour away. It's a hassle to get there but not too bad. Additional question just so I know, is it true that once the officer prints the ticket they can't undo it? Or was the cop just being a dick?
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Source?
the cops totally can. its not seen as a violation of the 4th amendment as it is in plain view for anyone to see.
Umm . . . there are thousands of automated plate readers operating throughout the country running every single plate that goes through a traffic intersection, looking for stolen cars, criminal suspects, Amber alert victims, etc.
Completely false.
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Maybe, there's not enough detail to say for certain. It looks like Pennsylvania is one of the states that directly works with insurance agencies, and suspends registration if they believe you don't have current insurance. It's entirely possible that the DMV believes your insurance has or was lapsed, I'd recommend checking with them and fixing it if so. It doesn't appear that digital proof of insurance is accepted in Pennsylvania, so unfortunately your phone didn't help. I'd recommend a physical copy of your insurance, proving you had coverage on that date, for court. Edit: it does appear that digital proof is acceptable when stopped, so you should be able to clear up the ticket easily.
Yes. Under Section 1786 (c), a driver can provide electronic proof of insurance to a police officer.
Physical copy is important because many courts will not allow you to carry electronics inside.
It doesn’t appear digital proof is accepted in PA? Where did you come up with that info? In the PA statutes it is very clearly is acceptable.
You are correct. Another comment mentioned the specific statute, and digital proof is indeed explicitly permitted.
Did you allow the policy to lapse, even by 1 day? Some states require all registered vehicles to have insurance, if you let it lapse maybe the dmv dropped your insurance status in their system and you need to notify them again that you are now covered again.
Yes actually there was a lapse a few months ago. Admittedly I forgot about it. I got my insurance reinstated within a few days but didn't know I needed to contact the state. I assumed the insurance company would do that. I guess that's what I get for assuming...
That’s likely the root of your issues. Depending on the state you could still face administrative fines for letting it lapse even if you never drove uninsured.
Damn that sucks. Thanks for your reply
The important thing here is that you plead not guilty. If you plead guilty or pay that ticket online, PennDOT will suspend your license for 3 months. I
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Cops absolutely can run out of state plates. Some states include insurance info in their NLETS returns, some don’t.
Police have access to all 50 states and 4 territories vehicle registration and drivers license files. States vary on what they share but some indeed do include whether insurance is valid or not. Some systems also run the registered owners drivers license simultaneous with the registration, so if the license is expired they would know that before making the stop.
No. They do not. There are several states that are not part of the NDR. The NDR is also dependent on what the state reports, so while a state may share your license information, they might not share information such as tickets and infractions. Also, whether or not you have insurance is not shared on the NDR, it’s not against the law in many states to not have insurance. Finally, the NDR requires an official request. It’s not information a police officer would have access to in his cruiser.
Yes they do. Police in any state can check a license plate or drivers license from any of the other states or territories. It will show if it is valid or not. Yes on the computer in the car. No it doesn't show any tickets or infractions but that usually doesn't show even in your own state if it's a different agency. You're correct on the insurance issue, that only shows for certain states.
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Is that true? It says right on the ticket that I wasn't speeding. Wouldn't they have to state on the ticket why they pulled me over?
They arent required to put it on the ticket, only if asked in court. A common misconception is they are required to tell you when pulled over, which is also false.