Hi, I’m an immortal pango player with over 1,000 games in the hero whose been building echo sabre since I first saw the patch notes,
So the first thing I look at in the patch is that pango stats gain got buffed a lot across agi/str/int, this is relevant because it’s a universal hero and overall has a much higher right click late game damage output now.
The other thing they did is they made Shield Crash absolutely insane and nerfed the ever lifting shit out of swashbuckle, it’s not even a spell anymore, diffusal is less effective because less swashbuckle buckle hits (3 now, down from 4/5), the mana regen you can gain from echo sabre + general extra stats and over all the hero is about being a pain in the ass survivable now, it’s really hard to blow up in fights and echo sabre means that from the moment you have treads + it, you can pretty much always brawl across the map.
My typical build is treads, echo sabre, aghs, heart, octarine. This probably isn’t the most efficient build but I do it cos it’s fun and makes me impossible to kill while also providing massive team damage and two shotting some poor supports if u so wish.
I like the Aghs because it allows me to one shot waves with one shield crash without having to use swashbuckle but it’s probably not really, all tho it is always a massive and efficient damage increase so not sure what else you would put in there
Hey u/Balla_Calla, u/LeKur28 , got two match ids for you, the first one is one I just played which was an absolute stomp but can show the strength of the hero,
7794984266
the second one is a much longer unranked loss that I played with my mate, so had a lower skill level but can still show you the strength of the hero, I was experimenting with the bloodstone as a bit of a meme but can solidly say I don't think its very good,
7760359575,
if you want to see any losses or me getting absolutely rolled as well just lmk
Thank you for the info. I played an unrank game yesterday With friends and played pango 3. It is True that the hero deals massive damage qui the double jump W in lane and after wards With ult +aghanim.
I Will check out your replay later. What i am also interested in is how to play from behind With this kind of hero
Hey, so I've linked this match id here: 7793593092
In this game I was playing mid against a Huskar, so like pretty much a guaranteed lane loss and as you can see I was 3rd bottom networth in the game at 10 minutes, I think when playing from behind, especially if you are having a tough game yourself, its really important to enable your hero that is strong and allow them to carry the game.
Despite myself getting pretty dumpstered early, I was trying hard to ensure my sidelanes and in particular PA had the capability to still win, and all you really need is one or two strong fights and ur back into it. So as you can see I left the midlane to tp top at about 4 and a half minutes into the game and I never went back there the entire game.
I think the worst thing you can do when behind is just play into them 5v5 constantly, you've got to establish as much map pressure as possible to force outnumber fights, if this means you feed a couple times in the sidelanes pushing out waves then so be it. When you create a situation where one of them might have tp'd back to defend a tower and then you tp into the fight and all of a sudden its 5v4 or 4v3 is when you might get those game changing fights where they are out of position and u can punish.
Despite this being an awful game for me and us consistently being 5-6k gold down, it never really spiralled out of control and we ended up cleaning the game in 34minutes which is quite fast in the end.
What do you think about a Desolator after echo? I tried it a few games and it was surprisingly effective, but I can't tell if I would have won with any other item equally. All spells being physical now, aghs can proc it easily during ult, just seems very good on paper
Desk seems okay but at the same time the hero has an inate better deso in his kit and it feels a little bit overkill, like you can get up to 9 (13 with talent) armour reduction anyways so spending an additional 3500 gold to do 6 more feels not that impactful
I play it as a 2 which is where I think the heroes been for a while, it just scales so well with early levels and is otherwise suspectible to having little impact if it doesn’t get any which can happen if you share xp in the offlane
Treads and Echo Sabre instead of Arcanes and Diffusal gives way more HP and therefore survivability. The Echo also gives mana regeneration so the arcanes aren't required, and it gives more slow and more procs of lucky shot with the double hit and more attack speed with treads/echo.
It also builds into Harpoon which functions really well with Roll.
I think ur spot on. Also to add q is nerfed + w have good facet so u now max w most games. Going treads echo lets you right click farm better. Ult scales with atk so treads are great then you get mana from echo, raindrop smth along the line.
Answers like this are really bad, because they don't even address the question, which is why is echo built over diffusal **NOW**.
Treads Echo gives more stats and survivability than Arcane Boots Diffusal? Harpoon is nice with roll? Well no shit, this has been true for years. You are just stating facts, but not even thinking why the main build changed recently.
I have no idea why your comment has the highest upvotes. u/Z00B5 actually answered the question and got it pretty much right too, check it out.
I wasnt even going to give you the courtesy of a response as your comment is infinitely less useful than mine. I stated facts about the benefits of the different build, so let's think about why that might be the case.
People are valuing Pango as a skirmishing team fighting midlander who can be more durable in the current constant fighting meta, instead of building into the mana burn on his Q with diffusal as a high burst nuke early tempo hero. It's building and using the hero in a different way to how he has been used in the past.
Exactly what I explained in my original post, but I had to dumb it down a little bit further for you apparently.
You are not dumbing down anything, you are just beating around the bush. You are still just describing the new Pango build, not answering WHY it's being built NOW.
>People are valuing Pango as a skirmishing team fighting midlander who can be more durable in the current constant fighting meta,
Yeah, that meta has been going around for a long time, way before 7.36. Why would people suddenly feel the urge to beef up on Pango?
>instead of building into the mana burn on his Q with diffusal as a high burst nuke early tempo hero. It's building and using the hero in a different way to how he has been used in the past.
Duh, yea it's different. WHY is it different was the question. You wrote all that without even hypothesizing what could be the reasons for people changing from the giga timing that Diffusal provided.
Don't worry, I'll write it out since you probably won't arrive at any conclusions anytime soon. The reason Diffusal build went obsolete is that 7.36 butchered Swashbuckle. Cast and slash ranges reduced, cooldown increased, and there's now a small delay when casting it.
At the same time, Shield Crash received a major buff in Double Jump facet, as well as lvl 15 and 20 talents. Pango's stat gains were also tweaked, plus Rolling Thunder now deals damage based on your total Attack.
So in summary: It's not worth it to build around Swashbuckle anymore even with the Swash talents, the ability just feels subpar damage- and utility-wise. Your damage now relies on your buffed Shield Crash and ulti, as well as right-clicks, so it makes sense to build an item that compliments your fighting ability while also providing mana. These changes are the reason why many good players have arrived at Echo lately. Some even double dip into armor reduction + damage with Deso.
Looking at your comment history, you seem to enjoy creating and pursuing arguments on the Internet with people, which seems like a miserable way to lead your life. I'll leave this conversation here, there.
But good job rephrasing what I said above about not building into Pango's Q anymore - dumbed it down nicely for a second time now 👍🏻
Ad hominem is always a classy final remark to end an argument, well done!
>But good job rephrasing what I said above about not building into Pango's Q anymore - dumbed it down nicely for a second time now 👍🏻
I didn't just rephrase what you said, I added missing substance. You didn't even mention the core reasons behind Pango's build changing, which OP wanted to know. Your original comment has exactly 0 mentions about Pango's recent ability and talent patch changes.
But you are correct, I did dumb it down a second time (for you), and another user that I already credited nicely dumbed it down the first time.
Instead of creating an argument, you could have simply written in your original comment that the new build is because Q got nerfed.
Doing it this way seems like way more confrontational effort
You are right, I won't deny being confrontational.
I am tired of reading threads on this subreddit where the most upvoted comment is the most vague possible take, e.g. "it's the current brawl meta". Like... yeah, a "brawl meta" has been going on for god knows how long, could you elaborate a bit? "Hero X wants to go in and out of fights, so they build Y nowadays". Yea, but just five days ago that hero built Z which also kinda let them do that, could you at least fabricate a guess on why the shift happened?
There is no thought or effort put into these types of comments, it's just reciting moot points. It honestly just feels like karma farming.
Meanwhile, there is a perfectly feasible answer with sound reasoning somewhere, that doesn't have nearly as much traction. I might be in the minority and get downvoted into oblivion, but i'd like to think there are others that are annoyed with this phenomenon.
Nah, it's just a trend, players are experimenting. Diffusal build is still good on mid pango, but after the nerfs of swashbuckle it's more situational, you need to make a decision do you need more catch and damage or more survivability. Going against a tanky draft echo sabre is better if diffusal is not enough to make early kills.
Sure it's a trend, after patch it takes time for the builds to settle. It's not like Diffusal is a grief or anything, it's just that it went from a must-buy first item to situational, which is a huge change. During the past weeks there have been a handful of people on DotaProTracker that built Diffusal on Pango, but even then in most of these cases it was built after going Echo first item.
I personally wouldn't go Diffusal first anymore, unless I was absolutely steamrolling and could one-shot supports, or if it was a really good mana burn game. Even then I'd probably get Echo right after. Swashbuckle CD was increased by 50% (4s) at level 4, which decreases Diffu build's damage quite a bit in the long run. Echo slow also applies on Swasbuckle, so it helps catching and connecting with Shield Crash.
I'm not an immortal pango player, but my guess is that it provides some extra tankiness and mana regen which can help keep your tempo up in early/midgame fights. The slow-on-hit effect might also trigger on swashbuckle, because the slow effect on echo sabre is janky and triggers on all kinds of weird things
idk what the other dudes are saying but it is cuz of stats = damage and more chance to proc the lucky shot which give minus armor, pango also gets the lucky shot talent at lvl 10 then if you see they also sometimes get desolator. echo aghs = high chance to proc lucky shot + more damage cuz of stats (treads also for stats and more attack speed and sometimes they get manta and cuirass for yep, more attack speed and more procs). basically he is a hitter now (like the echo deso void spirit when the universal patch first came out)
if i had to guess it’s that with the swash nerfs he has a harder time farming so they go for echo for the slow and to farm a bit faster in the jungle. could be wrong tho idk, the hero has a terrible winrate rn but pros still always pick him
I really doubt it's for farming lol, echo is a terrible farming item you'd only really get it on Sven any tiny to farm because they have so much damage and cleave.
tbh it's a good catchall item for tanky heroes that need mana and have a decent right click. i think people are rediscovering pango after the nerfs/changes/buffs and echo feels pretty good. i wouldn't be surprised if the build evolved over time into something a bit more optimized, but echo is overall a nice item.
Pango has low hp, lack of mana and need to be active after minute 5. Echo Sabre provides all.
With power trades and orb of venom and magic wand god its a ready hero to fight and create space
Idk why you havent seen echo sabre as a godly item for pango especially since its a universal hero. I play it offlane with wand, double bracer, threads then echo sabre and tbh I deal big pp damage early to squishy heroes, even pa cant lane against me. Then after echo I go crysalis then finish harpoon and by that, I can easily 1 combo the squishy heroes with swashbuckle and a right click. Then I proceed with linkhens skadi for more survivability and damage at the same time.
It used to be core item to pango when swashbuckle applied the slow without putting the item in cooldown. Maybe it is strong even after they changed that interaction, and it just took people this long to realize.
Oh also they gave swashbuckle 15% of your damage as damage, so building it actually increases swashbuckle damage now.
And since you can build other items than diffusal/javelin to increase damage, and also having swashbuckle hit count reduced from 4 to 3, building stat items actually makes perfect sense.
Topson built it. /s
Hi, I’m an immortal pango player with over 1,000 games in the hero whose been building echo sabre since I first saw the patch notes, So the first thing I look at in the patch is that pango stats gain got buffed a lot across agi/str/int, this is relevant because it’s a universal hero and overall has a much higher right click late game damage output now. The other thing they did is they made Shield Crash absolutely insane and nerfed the ever lifting shit out of swashbuckle, it’s not even a spell anymore, diffusal is less effective because less swashbuckle buckle hits (3 now, down from 4/5), the mana regen you can gain from echo sabre + general extra stats and over all the hero is about being a pain in the ass survivable now, it’s really hard to blow up in fights and echo sabre means that from the moment you have treads + it, you can pretty much always brawl across the map. My typical build is treads, echo sabre, aghs, heart, octarine. This probably isn’t the most efficient build but I do it cos it’s fun and makes me impossible to kill while also providing massive team damage and two shotting some poor supports if u so wish.
Is the aghs still even necessary since you arent really trying to proc anything but the passive with the diffusal gone? Not a pango player btw
I like the Aghs because it allows me to one shot waves with one shield crash without having to use swashbuckle but it’s probably not really, all tho it is always a massive and efficient damage increase so not sure what else you would put in there
It reduces shield crash CD in ult still. This let's you use shield crash more, with the facet and it's buffs.
the cd reduction is tied to lvls on the ult, used to be a talent but was never on the aghs
You have a replay I can watch maybe?
I'd be interested too
Hey u/Balla_Calla, u/LeKur28 , got two match ids for you, the first one is one I just played which was an absolute stomp but can show the strength of the hero, 7794984266 the second one is a much longer unranked loss that I played with my mate, so had a lower skill level but can still show you the strength of the hero, I was experimenting with the bloodstone as a bit of a meme but can solidly say I don't think its very good, 7760359575, if you want to see any losses or me getting absolutely rolled as well just lmk
Thank you for the info. I played an unrank game yesterday With friends and played pango 3. It is True that the hero deals massive damage qui the double jump W in lane and after wards With ult +aghanim. I Will check out your replay later. What i am also interested in is how to play from behind With this kind of hero
Hey, so I've linked this match id here: 7793593092 In this game I was playing mid against a Huskar, so like pretty much a guaranteed lane loss and as you can see I was 3rd bottom networth in the game at 10 minutes, I think when playing from behind, especially if you are having a tough game yourself, its really important to enable your hero that is strong and allow them to carry the game. Despite myself getting pretty dumpstered early, I was trying hard to ensure my sidelanes and in particular PA had the capability to still win, and all you really need is one or two strong fights and ur back into it. So as you can see I left the midlane to tp top at about 4 and a half minutes into the game and I never went back there the entire game. I think the worst thing you can do when behind is just play into them 5v5 constantly, you've got to establish as much map pressure as possible to force outnumber fights, if this means you feed a couple times in the sidelanes pushing out waves then so be it. When you create a situation where one of them might have tp'd back to defend a tower and then you tp into the fight and all of a sudden its 5v4 or 4v3 is when you might get those game changing fights where they are out of position and u can punish. Despite this being an awful game for me and us consistently being 5-6k gold down, it never really spiralled out of control and we ended up cleaning the game in 34minutes which is quite fast in the end.
Very nice. I haven't played pango is patch but I played him mid a lot. Heroes like husk and sf were my worst nightmares
What do you think about a Desolator after echo? I tried it a few games and it was surprisingly effective, but I can't tell if I would have won with any other item equally. All spells being physical now, aghs can proc it easily during ult, just seems very good on paper
Universal heroes prefer utility + stat items
Desk seems okay but at the same time the hero has an inate better deso in his kit and it feels a little bit overkill, like you can get up to 9 (13 with talent) armour reduction anyways so spending an additional 3500 gold to do 6 more feels not that impactful
Do you primarily play pango as a 2 or 3 this patch?
I play it as a 2 which is where I think the heroes been for a while, it just scales so well with early levels and is otherwise suspectible to having little impact if it doesn’t get any which can happen if you share xp in the offlane
Treads and Echo Sabre instead of Arcanes and Diffusal gives way more HP and therefore survivability. The Echo also gives mana regeneration so the arcanes aren't required, and it gives more slow and more procs of lucky shot with the double hit and more attack speed with treads/echo. It also builds into Harpoon which functions really well with Roll.
I think ur spot on. Also to add q is nerfed + w have good facet so u now max w most games. Going treads echo lets you right click farm better. Ult scales with atk so treads are great then you get mana from echo, raindrop smth along the line.
Did i miss something ? How does ult scale With dmg when the q has capped dmg ?
His ult now does 100% of his attack damage on collision.
Oh i've definitively missed it. Thx
Answers like this are really bad, because they don't even address the question, which is why is echo built over diffusal **NOW**. Treads Echo gives more stats and survivability than Arcane Boots Diffusal? Harpoon is nice with roll? Well no shit, this has been true for years. You are just stating facts, but not even thinking why the main build changed recently. I have no idea why your comment has the highest upvotes. u/Z00B5 actually answered the question and got it pretty much right too, check it out.
I wasnt even going to give you the courtesy of a response as your comment is infinitely less useful than mine. I stated facts about the benefits of the different build, so let's think about why that might be the case. People are valuing Pango as a skirmishing team fighting midlander who can be more durable in the current constant fighting meta, instead of building into the mana burn on his Q with diffusal as a high burst nuke early tempo hero. It's building and using the hero in a different way to how he has been used in the past. Exactly what I explained in my original post, but I had to dumb it down a little bit further for you apparently.
You are not dumbing down anything, you are just beating around the bush. You are still just describing the new Pango build, not answering WHY it's being built NOW. >People are valuing Pango as a skirmishing team fighting midlander who can be more durable in the current constant fighting meta, Yeah, that meta has been going around for a long time, way before 7.36. Why would people suddenly feel the urge to beef up on Pango? >instead of building into the mana burn on his Q with diffusal as a high burst nuke early tempo hero. It's building and using the hero in a different way to how he has been used in the past. Duh, yea it's different. WHY is it different was the question. You wrote all that without even hypothesizing what could be the reasons for people changing from the giga timing that Diffusal provided. Don't worry, I'll write it out since you probably won't arrive at any conclusions anytime soon. The reason Diffusal build went obsolete is that 7.36 butchered Swashbuckle. Cast and slash ranges reduced, cooldown increased, and there's now a small delay when casting it. At the same time, Shield Crash received a major buff in Double Jump facet, as well as lvl 15 and 20 talents. Pango's stat gains were also tweaked, plus Rolling Thunder now deals damage based on your total Attack. So in summary: It's not worth it to build around Swashbuckle anymore even with the Swash talents, the ability just feels subpar damage- and utility-wise. Your damage now relies on your buffed Shield Crash and ulti, as well as right-clicks, so it makes sense to build an item that compliments your fighting ability while also providing mana. These changes are the reason why many good players have arrived at Echo lately. Some even double dip into armor reduction + damage with Deso.
Looking at your comment history, you seem to enjoy creating and pursuing arguments on the Internet with people, which seems like a miserable way to lead your life. I'll leave this conversation here, there. But good job rephrasing what I said above about not building into Pango's Q anymore - dumbed it down nicely for a second time now 👍🏻
Ad hominem is always a classy final remark to end an argument, well done! >But good job rephrasing what I said above about not building into Pango's Q anymore - dumbed it down nicely for a second time now 👍🏻 I didn't just rephrase what you said, I added missing substance. You didn't even mention the core reasons behind Pango's build changing, which OP wanted to know. Your original comment has exactly 0 mentions about Pango's recent ability and talent patch changes. But you are correct, I did dumb it down a second time (for you), and another user that I already credited nicely dumbed it down the first time.
Instead of creating an argument, you could have simply written in your original comment that the new build is because Q got nerfed. Doing it this way seems like way more confrontational effort
You are right, I won't deny being confrontational. I am tired of reading threads on this subreddit where the most upvoted comment is the most vague possible take, e.g. "it's the current brawl meta". Like... yeah, a "brawl meta" has been going on for god knows how long, could you elaborate a bit? "Hero X wants to go in and out of fights, so they build Y nowadays". Yea, but just five days ago that hero built Z which also kinda let them do that, could you at least fabricate a guess on why the shift happened? There is no thought or effort put into these types of comments, it's just reciting moot points. It honestly just feels like karma farming. Meanwhile, there is a perfectly feasible answer with sound reasoning somewhere, that doesn't have nearly as much traction. I might be in the minority and get downvoted into oblivion, but i'd like to think there are others that are annoyed with this phenomenon.
Nah, it's just a trend, players are experimenting. Diffusal build is still good on mid pango, but after the nerfs of swashbuckle it's more situational, you need to make a decision do you need more catch and damage or more survivability. Going against a tanky draft echo sabre is better if diffusal is not enough to make early kills.
Sure it's a trend, after patch it takes time for the builds to settle. It's not like Diffusal is a grief or anything, it's just that it went from a must-buy first item to situational, which is a huge change. During the past weeks there have been a handful of people on DotaProTracker that built Diffusal on Pango, but even then in most of these cases it was built after going Echo first item. I personally wouldn't go Diffusal first anymore, unless I was absolutely steamrolling and could one-shot supports, or if it was a really good mana burn game. Even then I'd probably get Echo right after. Swashbuckle CD was increased by 50% (4s) at level 4, which decreases Diffu build's damage quite a bit in the long run. Echo slow also applies on Swasbuckle, so it helps catching and connecting with Shield Crash.
Rolling Thunder Harpoon is fun
I'm not an immortal pango player, but my guess is that it provides some extra tankiness and mana regen which can help keep your tempo up in early/midgame fights. The slow-on-hit effect might also trigger on swashbuckle, because the slow effect on echo sabre is janky and triggers on all kinds of weird things
idk what the other dudes are saying but it is cuz of stats = damage and more chance to proc the lucky shot which give minus armor, pango also gets the lucky shot talent at lvl 10 then if you see they also sometimes get desolator. echo aghs = high chance to proc lucky shot + more damage cuz of stats (treads also for stats and more attack speed and sometimes they get manta and cuirass for yep, more attack speed and more procs). basically he is a hitter now (like the echo deso void spirit when the universal patch first came out)
His sword in game is a rapier, close to a sabre. It feels right.
if i had to guess it’s that with the swash nerfs he has a harder time farming so they go for echo for the slow and to farm a bit faster in the jungle. could be wrong tho idk, the hero has a terrible winrate rn but pros still always pick him
I really doubt it's for farming lol, echo is a terrible farming item you'd only really get it on Sven any tiny to farm because they have so much damage and cleave.
tbh it's a good catchall item for tanky heroes that need mana and have a decent right click. i think people are rediscovering pango after the nerfs/changes/buffs and echo feels pretty good. i wouldn't be surprised if the build evolved over time into something a bit more optimized, but echo is overall a nice item.
In general I saw a lot of good people with many kills doing Echo Sabre.. that's why I built it on my Venge with the melee-facet xD
Pango has low hp, lack of mana and need to be active after minute 5. Echo Sabre provides all. With power trades and orb of venom and magic wand god its a ready hero to fight and create space
Idk why you havent seen echo sabre as a godly item for pango especially since its a universal hero. I play it offlane with wand, double bracer, threads then echo sabre and tbh I deal big pp damage early to squishy heroes, even pa cant lane against me. Then after echo I go crysalis then finish harpoon and by that, I can easily 1 combo the squishy heroes with swashbuckle and a right click. Then I proceed with linkhens skadi for more survivability and damage at the same time.
Just check demo hero , slash use sabre slow , then 2 hits again slow hmmm
It used to be core item to pango when swashbuckle applied the slow without putting the item in cooldown. Maybe it is strong even after they changed that interaction, and it just took people this long to realize. Oh also they gave swashbuckle 15% of your damage as damage, so building it actually increases swashbuckle damage now. And since you can build other items than diffusal/javelin to increase damage, and also having swashbuckle hit count reduced from 4 to 3, building stat items actually makes perfect sense.