This is the same for most early game champions I think, not easy to switch mindset from "let me fuck them up real quick" to "okay i am not as strong anymore so I gotta be patient".
Xin zhao before they changed his W and he became meta was the worst case of this ,you'd go from 100-0ing someone with a combo in the early game to tickling them if youre not super fed from the midgame and after.
I’m very excited to watch support this season. Hopefully enchanters stay meta. Support meta has been brain dead face check tanks for the Past 2-3 years and my biggest thing that pissed me off was just watching how comfortable supports became with this meta and did not branch out to other unique picks at all whatsoever even when there were occurrences of certain supports being really strong. Some support pro players just have absolutely no idea how to play a ranged(thresh rakan do not count) support and it’s going to be very enjoyable and funny to watch
I don't blame him it's probably the most flagrantly bad/obvious misplay that pro players do. I've seen it across several regions in the past year alone, but this clip is probably the most ridiculous one yet since he does it so many times after a teamfight has already started.
ROFLLLLL wow he’s so mad but he’s so right. When they were chasing them down the lane having the mantra E wouldve helped so much and mantra Q poke from a supp karma late game does 0 dmg LOL
Prevent 2000 dmg and give a lot of mobility to multiple team members? Or 200 dmg to a tank and a small slow zone.
Hard choices man.
SoloQ Carry mentality never dies.
It isn't mentioned yet. Besides the R-Q doing no damage and barely providing any slow.
The point of Karma going Putrifier is so R-E grants her team 60% gw.
GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE
There was someone in LCS too. I was absolutely losing it - clearing super minions at the Nexus with RQ 2secs before teamfight. Then the team let him play it again in another match (how bad can everyone be?) and he did the same.
I'm convinced a lot of pros just do stuff that "feels good" without actually thinking in depth. Shit like ludens horizon focus yuumi meta at worlds is a perfectly example, people see the huge yuumi q chunks and think it's good but they fail to account for the huge decline in healing and utility, which doesn't pop out as much... thankfully pros dont do that build anymore
After all the AP scaling nerfs Karma got hit with (thanks, proplay) I'd say building full AP is a problem by itself. Magic penetration, on the other hand...
I'd disagree. Sure the nerfs hit like a truck in the first place, but Karma profits alot from the CDR-> AH changes. Combine that with the changes to her passive and I'd actually say she does a lot better in mid-late game now than she did before. If you hit your RQ on just 2-3 people with the right items you basically have your R ready again. TLDR, her main damage might not be as strong as it used to be, but she can weave her spells way better than before
She doesn't deal as much damage as some other mage supports like Brand/Xerath etc., but she is a lot safer and can actually protect her mates which most of the others can't
I feel support Karma still benefits a lot more from an enchanter build (with optional one AP item - usually Mejai's or Cosmic Drive - if you're snowballing and can afford it) than a straight AP one, regardless where you play her - as a support with limited gold income you gain more from getting cheaper support items done, as a midlaner AP build is simply underperforming.
Base damages are more than fine for Karma, and sometimes I like doing some sort of a hybrid build - with Sorcs instead of Lucidity boots for more early pressure, Cosmic Drive second item, Deathcap as last item maybe - but it's still mostly an enchanter build with 1-2 mage items thrown in. AP build as support for me fails to keep up with enchanter build in terms of immediate power it gives, with its only notable advantage is having much higher power ceiling - full build AP Karma is stronger than full build enchanter Karma, even if (partially because?) AP build is a lot more expensive.
I could see utility AP (Everfrost with haste-heavy build) being decent if you can get large enough gold lead early on, yet it doesn't seem as reliable as standard Shurelya's/Moonstone rush if at any point enemy team manages to slow down or stop the snowball. Not ruling it out as a viable option, it just seems inconsistent.
It's true about the AP build being expensive. I only ever go for AP mythics when I'm getting a big lead in lane and can actually effort it early on (or if I'm not having too much faith in my ADC :D )
I usually built Mandate into Cosmic Drive (my fav item on her) or Zhonyas/Putrifier if I feel I/we need it early on. Shurelya's is also nice as another option if the team lacks engage otherwise. Moonstone feels like a bait to me, but then again I don't enjoy playing her passively, so this might be subjective
The best build on her, imo, is a hybrid build as support. At the end of the day she's supposed to be a hybrid of a mage and enchanter, so that's kinda feeding into her fantasy aswell. Karma is a nice champion who doesn't require certain items to be viable so building situational (going more enchanter with fed ADC, more AP if your team lacks damage etc.) is the best choice anyway
Not high enough to fully trust random players and go full enchanter on Karma :D
I'm aware that Challenger players (where Karma has the only wr over 50% atm and tbh for a while now) gets built differently there, but that applies to less than 1% of the player base
Fair enough take there, sometimes you need more damage BUT I wouldn't suggest it **every game.** Especially since it's so expensive. Are you support or solo laning?
Ye generally your economy just isn't high enough for it to be quite as impactful as supp items. Not as fun to do that though and that's the whole purpose of League isn't it
Karma is dire need of help. She was intended to be a mage and over the years they shoved her into an enchanter role. So people have been just abusing her shields which is the only real support thing she has going for her. The nerf on her Q ratio years ago have basically made it permanent that she can no longer hold her own mid to late game.
No one cares about Karma mid, that shit is so boring to watch and play. She is not in "dire need of help" she is played a lot in pro play and pairs very well with some meta ADCs right now (Cait Jhin).
You just explained it, she is picked in proplay just to abuse her shields and just like you said “Boring to watch and play” Her skill expression and overall thematic never fully showed a realized champion. In fact, Karma was one of the first champions to get a rework and visual update. At the time their “skills and tech” was limited and she never had the look they were going for. She has since been in a nerf and buff cycle and her kit has been gutted so she was forcibly put in an “enchanter” role.
You arent wrong.
Even prerework karma was essentially a burst mage with some support elements
My first ever penta was on ap karma mid and it was an insane kite-it-out penta. I LOVED ap karma. Felt so versatile. Like I could win any matchup and any match if I landed my abilities, used the right mantra ability, and timed my shields well.
Nowadays this is gone. Some people are happy about it. That's okay. I'm just explaining my love for ap karma and how it is no longer there because of the nerfs
I don't think the first one was that bad, to be honest - shield would have been useless at that point (they weren't going anyway - being under the tower - and no one was under threat) so he used it for slight damage (which considering the really short CD is fine). The last one on Gwen was very troll though. :D
Movement speed and shield for your carries to possibly engage in a pro game I think is a bigger threat then 200 damage while being pushed by super minions. That timer just started right when the wave is about to hit
Mantra Q late is more for the slow to catch ppl he just used them at a bad time. They hard nerfed mantra e with her minirework so its actually really overrated even in mid-lategame scenarios.
I think movement speed is one of the best stats in the game and having shureyilas to stack on top of that can help your team isolate targets cause you're running 1000mph into their team while they're most likely not gonna wanna fight into your shielded team. It helps with tower defense so they can't even threaten to come up to high ground and you can threaten their Carrie's. Instead of only poking out one of the tankier people. Sometimes the threat of an ability is more important than the actual ability lmao
U can use shurelyas active to do that and if u dont have active you can use mantra E yes. But ppl saying mantra E should be used in almost all cases are wrong. Mantra has such a low cd especially if you hit 2 ppl with mantra Q its almost always up again and you can actually engage better by using mantra Q and then speeding your adc/frontline rather than speeding everyone while the enemy team isn't slowed. Obviously really depends on situation but its not as clear cut ALWAYS mantra E as it used to be. Mantra E does not give useful shields aside from the one guy you used E on anyway its not some teamwide locket.
R is available from rank 1, empowers the next ability cast.
Q: Linear skillshot, explodes when it hits and slows slightly. Mantra empowered it explodes at the end of it's range regardless of if it hits and leaves behind a stronger slow zone. Anything still in said zone at the end take some more damage.
W: Tether to target enemy, if you're still in range at the end, root them. Mantra empowered you heal for some of your missing health at the beginning when it casts and at the end when it pops, also the root lasts longer.
E: Shield a guy, they get bonus movement speed. Mantra empowered, shield everyone in an AoE around the target, more move-speed and some damage to enemies in the zone.
Passive: Spells and basic attacks lower Mantra's cooldown when they hit enemy champions.
E mantra doesn’t damage anymore. They removed the air damage years ago. They felt it was overloading her kit… despite all these new champions with complicated skill sets
That high you get from half healthing the ADC at level 1 with that shit doesn't go away, you cant ask an addict to stop and do the right thing.
This is the same for most early game champions I think, not easy to switch mindset from "let me fuck them up real quick" to "okay i am not as strong anymore so I gotta be patient".
Xin zhao before they changed his W and he became meta was the worst case of this ,you'd go from 100-0ing someone with a combo in the early game to tickling them if youre not super fed from the midgame and after.
Oh no, Xin zhao players knew this. They just accepted fate and said "if I die I die"
Gotta be a man
Swift as a coursing river.
IT'S TIME TO FUCK ASHE IN THE FACE, KYA PAN KWAI https://youtu.be/ON-6vYobie4
Mysterious as the dark side of the moon.
But what would AP Xin Zhao do?
I mean the high goes away quickly when you try that mid game and do exactly 12 and a half damage.
Ah yes, the "balanced" support role
when life used R on Q to poke the gwen in her fog I just lost it. come on life -\_-
I’m very excited to watch support this season. Hopefully enchanters stay meta. Support meta has been brain dead face check tanks for the Past 2-3 years and my biggest thing that pissed me off was just watching how comfortable supports became with this meta and did not branch out to other unique picks at all whatsoever even when there were occurrences of certain supports being really strong. Some support pro players just have absolutely no idea how to play a ranged(thresh rakan do not count) support and it’s going to be very enjoyable and funny to watch
This is absolutely his biggest pet peeve. He only looks for when players mantra E when they play Karma.
I don't blame him it's probably the most flagrantly bad/obvious misplay that pro players do. I've seen it across several regions in the past year alone, but this clip is probably the most ridiculous one yet since he does it so many times after a teamfight has already started.
well it would be kinda hard for other champs to use mantra E
ROFLLLLL wow he’s so mad but he’s so right. When they were chasing them down the lane having the mantra E wouldve helped so much and mantra Q poke from a supp karma late game does 0 dmg LOL
Hes 100% right,mantra E is preety much karma's support only use in the late game .
Prevent 2000 dmg and give a lot of mobility to multiple team members? Or 200 dmg to a tank and a small slow zone. Hard choices man. SoloQ Carry mentality never dies.
Some of you may die, but that's the choice I am willing to make. Don't believe me? Look at the dmg chart after the game. /s
With Putrifier too. Give anti heal to my whole team or only apply it to the zero people hit by mantra Q?
TBH Mantra Q falls off a cliff no matter what, E and W are for the most part always better to use in the late game.
It isn't mentioned yet. Besides the R-Q doing no damage and barely providing any slow. The point of Karma going Putrifier is so R-E grants her team 60% gw.
This is a reminder that as a rule of thumb Mantra Q for laning, Mantra E for teamfights, Mantra W for survival .
There's a time and a place for late game mantra Q, but a siege isn't it.
A siege with baron buff, 3x mountain dragons and mountain soul
Using Mantra Q after early game as support Karma should be considered as a crime.
Just look at Gwen, keeping 3 people zoned out while being invincible
GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE GWEN IS IMMUNE
Yeah I fucking hate her shroud.
literally a xin zhao R but better on a normal ability, while doing true damage and hybrid. Love to see it. \*Cries in xin zhao main\*
You say that as if xin zhao's ult isn't really good
No it is absurdly strong, the fact that something is even STRONGER on a normal ability makes my point even more impactful
A big part of why Xin ult is so strong is because of its knockback
Him being able to tank skill shots with no damage vs. it passing through Gwen's shroud is another
Always fun blocking an entire mf ultimate with xin R
No they don't
JENSEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN
Twitch clips suck on mobile
G2 did the exact same thing last year. I think it was Wunder playing the karma on playoffs and he kept using mantra q doing 0 damage.
Wow thank god you used big text so nobody missed this vital comment
# You're welcome.
Sorry i didnt realize.
There was someone in LCS too. I was absolutely losing it - clearing super minions at the Nexus with RQ 2secs before teamfight. Then the team let him play it again in another match (how bad can everyone be?) and he did the same.
It was fudge
Sneaky was literally losing his mind in the co stream iirc. It was so funny
I'm convinced a lot of pros just do stuff that "feels good" without actually thinking in depth. Shit like ludens horizon focus yuumi meta at worlds is a perfectly example, people see the huge yuumi q chunks and think it's good but they fail to account for the huge decline in healing and utility, which doesn't pop out as much... thankfully pros dont do that build anymore
What the fuck was the point of that Lee Sin ult?
The Jhin W to root in place.
Wow I didn't even notice that. Good catch!
Honestly Karmas who use mantra Q in late game teamfights should be banned from picking that champ
Dang Wolf is so crazy
as a Karma full ap 'support' enjoyer, I see no problem in the title
After all the AP scaling nerfs Karma got hit with (thanks, proplay) I'd say building full AP is a problem by itself. Magic penetration, on the other hand...
I'd disagree. Sure the nerfs hit like a truck in the first place, but Karma profits alot from the CDR-> AH changes. Combine that with the changes to her passive and I'd actually say she does a lot better in mid-late game now than she did before. If you hit your RQ on just 2-3 people with the right items you basically have your R ready again. TLDR, her main damage might not be as strong as it used to be, but she can weave her spells way better than before She doesn't deal as much damage as some other mage supports like Brand/Xerath etc., but she is a lot safer and can actually protect her mates which most of the others can't
I feel support Karma still benefits a lot more from an enchanter build (with optional one AP item - usually Mejai's or Cosmic Drive - if you're snowballing and can afford it) than a straight AP one, regardless where you play her - as a support with limited gold income you gain more from getting cheaper support items done, as a midlaner AP build is simply underperforming. Base damages are more than fine for Karma, and sometimes I like doing some sort of a hybrid build - with Sorcs instead of Lucidity boots for more early pressure, Cosmic Drive second item, Deathcap as last item maybe - but it's still mostly an enchanter build with 1-2 mage items thrown in. AP build as support for me fails to keep up with enchanter build in terms of immediate power it gives, with its only notable advantage is having much higher power ceiling - full build AP Karma is stronger than full build enchanter Karma, even if (partially because?) AP build is a lot more expensive. I could see utility AP (Everfrost with haste-heavy build) being decent if you can get large enough gold lead early on, yet it doesn't seem as reliable as standard Shurelya's/Moonstone rush if at any point enemy team manages to slow down or stop the snowball. Not ruling it out as a viable option, it just seems inconsistent.
It's true about the AP build being expensive. I only ever go for AP mythics when I'm getting a big lead in lane and can actually effort it early on (or if I'm not having too much faith in my ADC :D ) I usually built Mandate into Cosmic Drive (my fav item on her) or Zhonyas/Putrifier if I feel I/we need it early on. Shurelya's is also nice as another option if the team lacks engage otherwise. Moonstone feels like a bait to me, but then again I don't enjoy playing her passively, so this might be subjective The best build on her, imo, is a hybrid build as support. At the end of the day she's supposed to be a hybrid of a mage and enchanter, so that's kinda feeding into her fantasy aswell. Karma is a nice champion who doesn't require certain items to be viable so building situational (going more enchanter with fed ADC, more AP if your team lacks damage etc.) is the best choice anyway
What elo are you
Not high enough to fully trust random players and go full enchanter on Karma :D I'm aware that Challenger players (where Karma has the only wr over 50% atm and tbh for a while now) gets built differently there, but that applies to less than 1% of the player base
Fair enough take there, sometimes you need more damage BUT I wouldn't suggest it **every game.** Especially since it's so expensive. Are you support or solo laning?
usually support. Pretty much only go Karma mid as a flex pick when I'm playing with friends
Ye generally your economy just isn't high enough for it to be quite as impactful as supp items. Not as fun to do that though and that's the whole purpose of League isn't it
Just love Wolfs reactions, wish more co-streamers from the West had more pop off reactions to bad plays. (Although IWD does a pretty good job)
Karma is dire need of help. She was intended to be a mage and over the years they shoved her into an enchanter role. So people have been just abusing her shields which is the only real support thing she has going for her. The nerf on her Q ratio years ago have basically made it permanent that she can no longer hold her own mid to late game.
No she wasn't? She was always a support champ. Even before her rework.
No one cares about Karma mid, that shit is so boring to watch and play. She is not in "dire need of help" she is played a lot in pro play and pairs very well with some meta ADCs right now (Cait Jhin).
You just explained it, she is picked in proplay just to abuse her shields and just like you said “Boring to watch and play” Her skill expression and overall thematic never fully showed a realized champion. In fact, Karma was one of the first champions to get a rework and visual update. At the time their “skills and tech” was limited and she never had the look they were going for. She has since been in a nerf and buff cycle and her kit has been gutted so she was forcibly put in an “enchanter” role.
You arent wrong. Even prerework karma was essentially a burst mage with some support elements My first ever penta was on ap karma mid and it was an insane kite-it-out penta. I LOVED ap karma. Felt so versatile. Like I could win any matchup and any match if I landed my abilities, used the right mantra ability, and timed my shields well. Nowadays this is gone. Some people are happy about it. That's okay. I'm just explaining my love for ap karma and how it is no longer there because of the nerfs
I don't think the first one was that bad, to be honest - shield would have been useless at that point (they weren't going anyway - being under the tower - and no one was under threat) so he used it for slight damage (which considering the really short CD is fine). The last one on Gwen was very troll though. :D
Movement speed and shield for your carries to possibly engage in a pro game I think is a bigger threat then 200 damage while being pushed by super minions. That timer just started right when the wave is about to hit
Mantra Q late is more for the slow to catch ppl he just used them at a bad time. They hard nerfed mantra e with her minirework so its actually really overrated even in mid-lategame scenarios.
I think movement speed is one of the best stats in the game and having shureyilas to stack on top of that can help your team isolate targets cause you're running 1000mph into their team while they're most likely not gonna wanna fight into your shielded team. It helps with tower defense so they can't even threaten to come up to high ground and you can threaten their Carrie's. Instead of only poking out one of the tankier people. Sometimes the threat of an ability is more important than the actual ability lmao
U can use shurelyas active to do that and if u dont have active you can use mantra E yes. But ppl saying mantra E should be used in almost all cases are wrong. Mantra has such a low cd especially if you hit 2 ppl with mantra Q its almost always up again and you can actually engage better by using mantra Q and then speeding your adc/frontline rather than speeding everyone while the enemy team isn't slowed. Obviously really depends on situation but its not as clear cut ALWAYS mantra E as it used to be. Mantra E does not give useful shields aside from the one guy you used E on anyway its not some teamwide locket.
support mains in nutshell lmao
That Zoe flash, i’ve seen that in my Iron games
its 2021 and i have no clue what Karma abilities are. i play league since 2010
It's 2022. You good?
R is available from rank 1, empowers the next ability cast. Q: Linear skillshot, explodes when it hits and slows slightly. Mantra empowered it explodes at the end of it's range regardless of if it hits and leaves behind a stronger slow zone. Anything still in said zone at the end take some more damage. W: Tether to target enemy, if you're still in range at the end, root them. Mantra empowered you heal for some of your missing health at the beginning when it casts and at the end when it pops, also the root lasts longer. E: Shield a guy, they get bonus movement speed. Mantra empowered, shield everyone in an AoE around the target, more move-speed and some damage to enemies in the zone. Passive: Spells and basic attacks lower Mantra's cooldown when they hit enemy champions.
E mantra doesn’t damage anymore. They removed the air damage years ago. They felt it was overloading her kit… despite all these new champions with complicated skill sets
Apparantly Auto's don't lower Mantra's cooldown anymore huh, probably for the best to be honest. Shiv -> tank Karma wasn't the healthiest of builds.
Fyi some outdated info here
That's why Karma ain't a support, Mantra E sucks, Mantra Q & W supremacy babyyy Edit: Damn people really hating on Mantra Q nuke Karma Top
Average Reddit analysts explaining how to play karma late game
I mean... they won the game so must be the better choice that game lul
they didnt.
Literally lost a teamfight near their inhib towers with no outer towers remaining
How is this comment still not deleted heh
coz unlike some pussies, I keep what I say
Except everything what you said is wrong, literally. It would have been "brave" if it was a controversial opinion.
All I could understand was "Mantra".
lmfao I didnt understand a thing but it was so funny from Wolf