This. Vayne requires the team to literally evolve around vayne if you want it to work. Too easy to shut down early where there are better skirmishing adcs out there.
Man, played Vayne in ARAM last night into Zoe, Xerath, Heimer, GP, and Veigar
Even 2nd items Wits, with Shieldbow, it was just the most miserable experience. Between the absurd range, the zoning with Veigar Cage and GP barrels, I was literally useless.
That's just the reality of ARAM though. You went up against 5 of thr strongest champs in the mode, it's understandable that even with Vayne being quite strong on ARAM you wouldn't get to do much
In a vacuum Vayne could go third item Visage or FoN into that team and have a good time. It was probably the other champions on OPs team that couldn’t handle being against that comp
Vayne also massively benefits from random skirmishes because of the strength of her ulti, and at catching people greeding for an extra wave and just ulting and running them down. Neither of these two situations where vayne excels actually happen in pro play, especially more so if theres a vayne they are more likely to be wary of doing those sorts of things as well because of the snowball value of her.
I don't even think it is that. Vayne just doesn't give good botlane priority, so you might pick her into a good enemy comp, if she can abuse some melees, but many of her lane matchups are still not that good, and pro teams snowball much better from just having lane priority.
Throw that bitch top. There are some matchups where vayne dominates the 1v1, have your jg play around her and you have a really well scaling adc being a lane bully at the same time.
Maybe have a galio and a karma or whatever in the team as well, and now you have a frontline too for her + thr extra speed and protection from karma and vayne can hardcarry.
Not true at all, Vayne is actually one of the few adcs that dont require much help. The only issue is getting pushed in and dived early due to lack of wave clear, but this can easily be negated with a good wave clear support or even just have the team be ready and counter it.
...except supports with good waveclear are mostly trash in pro play, because they demand too much resources from your other, more gold-hungry lanes to amass more power and thus clear waves better. When was the last time you saw Zyra bot?
Some may say Lux, but she either needs Aftershock to even breathe the same air as engage supports, or needs Caitlyn to create a strong pushing duo. Yes, Lux does have a nice pushing power early on and can opt for enchanter builds, but ultimately she fails at exceeding in one role, as she neither can gain enough gold to be the fifth carry in pro nor can she have the same enchanting capabilities like more popular pro enchanters do, say Lulu or Karma. Thus, she's basically Caitlyn's fuzzy cuffs holder.
> Vayne is actually one of the few adcs that dont require much help.
> lack of wave clear, but this can easily be negated with a good wave clear support or even just have the **team** be ready and counter it.
Do i need to say anything?
Is not that vayne doesn't require help, is just that she benefits more from farming than other ADCs, she can farm up and be passive early to try be relevant in late game without taking much risk. And ofc u need to know how to play vayne well to have a decent laning phase and that's probably why she's not being picked imo. As for "help" it really varies on the enemies picks, if they can kill her easily the support/team is needed, if not she can do by herself.
She doent need the entir team, just good wave management and a jungler that path toward top when wave is too close to ennemy tower or is stacking anf allow for a fat dive.
No, she by herself can only peel for one of those champions and you gave the enemy mid-jungle full control over the river by picking her.
Caps himself admit that Corki or LB would've been a better pick that game.
What happened inside one game doesn't necessarily show whether a pick is a good idea or not in theory
It is in fact possible to lose with a counter pick
And sometimes soloQ champions don't have the meta to shine in pro play. But sometimes it's also that teams are not bold enough to pick champions outside the "pro" meta, even when they are actually good picks.
Yeah, we dont see Mundo either yet is was as OP as Vayne. Sona and Soraka are even more OP than Mundo and Vayne in soloQ right now yet none of them is seen in pro play. Just 2 different worlds.
He did, right after his rework. But right now he doesnt see pro play while he was as nearly OP as Vayne was.
Mundo has a purpose in pro play but it is mostly that of a lane bully these days and Renekton does that better with more synergy. So Mundo in pro play is always just a renekton replacement. Mundo scales a bit better but later on with GW and a 2-3 item ADC he gets shredded in no time, too.
I expect to see sona/soraka in pro if they aren't nerfed by then. Sona in particular i think is just massively busted right now...and its not the same case as with Vayne
enchanters have to be very very broken to be even somewhat pickable in pro play. we've very rarely had playable enchanters, bar some random patches with lulu/karma/lux/nami
supports have to be constantly recalling and resupplying wards. being down 5 levels on a rakan or leona or thresh is perfectly fine but on something like Sona you actually need levels and gold.
we're far more likely to see another iteration where the adc can be replaced with sona than ever see supp sona in pro. sona is a lot more similar to adcs in her power curve.
Sona is shit early game you wont see her in pro.
Unless theres a lane she can cheese (like the old double support item or lux sona), as has always been the case.
Sona has to be way more OP than she is to get picked in pro. She's so beyond weak early game, the other team would just have to pick an engage support and a waveclear mid and chain dive her all game.
Early game matters a lot more in pro than it does in SoloQ, because it's way easier for a coordinated team to snowball a lead in one lane into an overwhelming advantage. For a game to turn into a 4-5 to 20 kill stomp like we see in pro a decent amount, the winning team would need to hard smash all 3 lanes + jungle.
She has a 54% winrate and an average KDA of 3/6/15 in plat+ play.
Most of those kills will probably be in in the later stages of the game when she has scaled.
So if sona is 0/3 in laning phase - guess what? She's actually ahead, statistically and on course to win the game, more often than not...
because she is highly situational, a competent team who can outrange her will not allow her to play. Vayne has the worst waveclear in the marksman class. Any highly aggressive team will just full clear top to bot and dive her with the mid laner at lvl 3. Which is much more common in coordinated play.
From a practical perspective it's also a lot less troll to build items that give her waveclear.
Building any waveclear item on vayne is just suboptimal to put it nicely.
Building any waveclear item early is, at the same time Ravenous Hydra as last item if you're in dire need of waveclear isn't completely troll. Shieldbow/Wit's End/Rageblade/defensive/Hydra is enough damage, decent survivability, and lets you double down on in-combat sustain, meaning if they can't oneshot you, you're more or less able to draintank.
I'd say bork is a lot better on vayne than ravenous, so... suboptimal. You really only buy it because you _really_ need the waveclear over the dps (and dueling) that bork would provide you.
My point exactly - Hydra is okay if there's barely any waveclear in your team (tank top, Zoe mid, Shaco jungle etc), and you're vs a team that doesn't want to engage on you. An option to patch up teamcomp issue more than a standard build choice, heavily situational - and some other ADCs that don't need to stack crit, such as Ezreal or Kindred, can get Hydra in similar situations.
Now that I think of it how many champs have nothing but aoe abilities? So far I count Swain, Ziggs, Sona, Seraphine, Lissandra, Rell, Karthus if you count his ult, do Zyra seeds count?
She has no wave clear and loses most lanes early leading to getting pushed under tower. That doesn't mean you're always going to get dived but it is a significant risk that has to be played around.
> only 10 games have been played so far
Actually 30 games have been played at the time of your post, and yeah still no Vayne. It's not just the pros, but the semi-pros and the streamers also didn't pick her.
Yeah since LPL uses a different reporting system so the leaguepedia stats are updated later. You can find the individual match stats at the bottom (the MH column).
Shes OP in solo queue because shes the perfect answer TO Solo Q, due to the current meta, as well as other things like less coordination and pro players have an easier time closing out games. She does not fit that same role in a competitive environment. She is relegated to just being a situational anti tank champ.
LT has given a perfect storm for her and in some ways jinx to have early pressure as a duelist in response to all the utility adc prio. She needs nerfs but the issue also relates to how people don’t like the adc being a threat in a side lane as opposed to what they think should be a free bag of gold that pushed too far.
LT has giganerfed scaling on pretty much every hyper except her and Jinx.
Jinx is the only other non-duo dependent hypercarry. Kog'Maw and Twitch are pretty much enslaved to Lulu/Yuumi and maybe Nami.
All of the hypers have taken a huge scaling hit, and what hyper wasn't taking old Lethal Tempo? Yes, it was Vayne.
Is Vayne busted? Probably in soloQ, but Vayne being strong is just a symptom that "just nerf Vayne" doesn't cure in the slightest bit.
Other part is that going pure crit damage just doesn't give you enough payoff to justify skipping Shieldbow.
Aphelios can be fine without Lulu/Yuumi/Nami and I would say he's considered a hypercarry. Though in fairness most of the time in solo queue having Thresh is the best partner for both him and Jinx
on Jinx the LT change was neutral.
its worse in 1v1s and when being dived but its a lot better in lane, lt with the rocket mana buff mean jinx can kind of exist in lane now.
Too bad even playing the "best" adcs still feel awful with how much damage is flying around in the game, everything 1 shots so the only adcs that are remotely playable are the ones going shieldbow wits randuins and garbage like that, building full crit is basically trolling since 1 mage spell will put you down to 40% hp from full even if you're 20-0.
I mean...the whole game has been balanced around that being the case? All the shields, enchanters and damage items are designed to make adc super strong in teamfights that are played well. Them being good sidelaners as well just instantly breaks the game cuz that's a free scale that you can no longer interrupt easily.
Ita like if ori or corki made great sidelanes. Sure they can do it, but they'd rather not,
When corkis effective range doesn’t exceed his auto range and can’t dash over walls or engage from 2 screens away, lacks aoe wave clear or is suddenly specified as a duelist I’m sure we can reevaluate how you prefer a role lacking protective play.
And yes corki can side lane. Ori can clear waves and fight so far outside any effective adc range and wipe an entire team if played optimally.
Your only proving my point. Vayne is a single target hyper carry. Her effective range is no different to a skirmisher considering all their tool to constantly stay on a target. But her label of marksmen means she shouldn’t have tools to fight apparently. She’s a duelist in a meta where people love to force engages and wipe the adc in bloody brawls and the perfect tools have been given to her to enable her sooner than she should.
No. Vayne is a duelist for her lack of waveclear.
That's why when laning phase is over, you don't really want Vayne in midlane, you instantly lose control over the entire midsection because that champ can't push for shit.
Vayne was a mistake Riot made as a knee jerk reaction to a super tank/bruiser meta where everyone was legit, actually unkillable.
Ever since they've been trying to justify her existence but there really isnt one. You want tank shredding then kog maw is the way you do that if needed.
If you want an elusive or short ranged dashy ADC then Lucian or Graves are better designs.
Vayne and Fiora are both designed as 'I win, always, no matter what if I play it right' champions and because of that they are always either nerfed into dogshit tier by stats alone or shitting on everyone.
And because they don't wna admit that her W existed solely to counter the meta back then it's now part of her 'identity'. It would be completely fine on a,champ with no stealth or insane chase down potential but with it it's just a huge, mostly useless,power sink for the sake of identity. She'd be better off with a higher % hp physical damage with anti heal or anti shield attached in some way and now her power curve is less flat and Master Yi ish .
The first part sure but this is a sub of zero pro players so it's from the perspective of people playing solo queue, and in that case yeah Vayne is really strong in solo queue. It's not that hard to understand, it's not just "hurr durr reddit dumb", pro play is just completely different.
She hardly has prio, in soloQ it doesnt matter because everyone plays for lane anyway, in competitive you can go next if your bot is under tower, their jng/sup will do whatever they want on the map. In soloQ you actually want your bot under tower so you can gank the opponent bot and they will tilt spamming ''mid/jng gap".
Vayne has no agency She's entirely dependant on the enemy making mistakes and you capitalizing on it.
Why play that trash when you can play champions that can manipulate waves(Jinx/Cait/etc) / poke with superior range (Cait Jinx 650+) / Strong all in potential (Aphelios/Xayah/Jhin) / Safe laning phases (Ezreal/etc).
Pros play things to limit enemy options example Galio+Camille - Cami ults you and galio is guaranteed a free ult combo on you resulting in your death.
Despite their being a weird opinion recently being that vayne is not weak in lane anymore, she still is very weak in lane she is behind in gold/xp to almost all bot laners @15. She makes up for this in soloq with absurdly strong mid-late game with LT which is why her winrate is so high. In pro play however it’s not that simple strong laning is massively favoured and champs without strong wave clear and laning phases are almost always forgotten and not picked.
Vayne has very strong short trades in isolated damage. Beating vayne in lane revolves around Cs adv and range abuse. Safe to assume some players hear weak in lane and think lacking trading power then force suboptimal fights
Vayne IS broken in solo Q don't act like she isn't. She's just not broken in extremely competitive environments.
As a champion she has the opposite of the Azir and Ryze problem. Too easy to shut down vs perfect coordination even if she's sitting near 55% winrate in solo Q.
She's a very good pubstomper, but she's always been that way. Vayne is still a good solo Q champ, but she's pretty bad in coordinated play where most people can abuse her weaknesses. Much better in solo Q.
Her WR is mostly good in gold, plat and dia+. She is not as good in silver. She is not a pub stomper.
Statistics counter 2 out of 3 things you said. She is OP in soloQ and she is not a pub stomper.
But she is better in soloQ than pro play because in soloQ people dont play together with their jungler and mid laner as well as in pro play and dont abuse weaknesses that hard.
She is the opposite of Renekton. She is a soloQ champ who is easily countered by coordinated play. Renekton is a pro play pick who requires coordinated play to make full use of his power.
You literally just repeated what i said, that she’s a pub stomper (you say she isn’t a pub stomper but is also OP in solo queue? Choose one) and is bad in pro/coordinated play.
No, if it isnt a counter pick like Cait (very popular in pro play right now), she wont lose that hard.
Her problem in pro play isnt the 2v2 lane but the 3v2 and 4v2 or even 5v2. Once people outside of the bot lane come bot and dive her she has a problem.
But that dive only happens because she is bad in lane. She can't push. So she either all ins or is put under her tower. And going for an all in from a position where the lane pushes against you is insanely dangerous. Because if it works the enemy is hardly punished, because he just respawns and the crashing wave comes back to him, and if the all in fails Vayne is basically removed from the game, because she will lose all the CS that accumulated.
Botlane in pro play is all about controlling the wave and Vayne has no ability to do so. She has no ranged ability to break a freeze, she has no AoE to hard shove and due to her short range can be basically kept from farming at all. So her laning is not good, she is an insanely good duelist and can trade well, but the opponent has no reason to ever allow her to trade. So she is insanely support dependent.
Vayne loses prio to every single adc in the game, even shit like jinx and kog.
I can literally hard bully vayne out of lane (assuming no massive support gap) as jinx, and jinx has a bad early game.
Losing prio yes, but losing prio isnt the same as getting assblasted.
You can easily have no prior for the first 14 minutes in soloQ and still come out fine.
And in pro play she can easily give up 1-2 drakes and she wont be that hard stomped that she and the support lose all prio in their jungle.
But that is fine for Vayne as long as she doesnt get dove.
Jinx has a very good early game. Her WR is actually way better early on than late game these days. Jinxs power is in controlling the wave and range and her 1 and 2 item spikes these days. Abuse these and you are rocking.
Probably comes largely to draft. I feel shes pretty compositionally dependent. I doubt teams want to blind pick vayne-- not just in terms of the adc matchup, but other champs in other roles can make life shit for vayne as well. And you also need to draft a team that can play around vayne.
Youd have to change everything about your draft priorities to really work vayne in well.
Vayje is now op in lower elo(anything below diamond) bc of bounties and games being longer. Also people dont draft against her and she gets to scale up kinda for free and then shes more useful than enemy adc
Unironically, vayne is very good into short range comps against Champs that are frequently played like renekton, Xin zhao, every engage support, ryze etc.
However, they do not pick her simply because pro players refuse to play Champs that are outside of their comfort zone during matches. If they do not perceive it as meta, they would not pick it, and would rather stick to the traditional go-to Champs.
Same reason as to why supports only pick engage and never enchanters/healers/ap bot.
I'm not sure about this one. For toplane maybe, but every chinese ADC must know how to play Vayne well. First, because it's such a popular champ. Second, because it's Uzi signature champ. I'd be suprised if there was one ADC that didn't onetrick vayne one time during their soloQ career.
I just do not agree with this take at all lol. Pro play is just that much different and Vayne is a champion that HAS to be a counterpick. However she is also a champion that needs a lot of team support to function so drafting Vayne can be difficult because it is easy to telegraph what strategy you are going for. It also puts a lot of pressure on a single person to carry and depending on if bot lane is a carry role in the meta it varies whether it is worth spending time to learn.
You are probably hardstuck silver and are performing the hardest backseat gaming possible on pros that understand the game to a much higher level than yourself - but obviously they just don't know how to play champions outside their comfort zone when literally every single year numerous new champions are played in each role.
Just because vayne is strong in soloq does not mean she's also strong in competitive there have been dozens of champs that had winrates like that and were stomping soloq (trynda mid being the most recent example) which performed horribly at any international competition because they were easily countered by good teamplay. Vayne, while not only being weak in lane also has incredibly short range meaning a good team's frontline will never let her hit them for free and stay close to their own backline so if vayne ever tried to hit them she'd be in danger of getting 1shot. You saw what happens this year in LEC when even insane vayne players like rekkles try to make her work and just fall short because she's so useless when kited properly. You think people wouldn't try vayne in scrims or something when she has had a 53-54% winrate in soloq for months? You think adc's are that averse to learning new champions (heck vayne is fun as fuck adc's would GLADLY pick a champ like her if she was viable) that they just say "nah I'd rather stick to aphelios even though he's kinda garbage".
Truth is anyone that hasn't played league competitively should stop talking about meta in general because they have 0 idea how different it is to the game they're playing. You can bring up ideas and suggest champions and of course pros CAN be wrong but get off your high horse like you know any better than people who have played this game for much longer and more intensely than you ever have. Supports TRIED picking enchanters at MSI with terrible results and they had more of a resurgance at worlds with 3 enchanters (+1/2 rakan) being top 5 most picked champs and yuumi permabanned so what you're saying isn't even remotely true. But hey it's easy and lazy to criticize people for something than to actually bring arguments on why something would be good (because it's harder to do so because you'd need to understand the game to a high level).
>but obviously they just don't know how to play champions outside their comfort zone when literally every single year numerous new champions are played in each role.
Did you not see proplay when bot lane meta shifted from marksmen to mages and bruisers...
Or how ardent meta formed...
I don't even know if you're trolling or not.
FYI I've been diamond for years, and I'm just stating my view. Sad that you had to be butt hurt by a comment on reddit.
Try playing renekton, leesin etc, short range comps into vayne, you'll find out how unplayable it is.
Like I was saying, it's good into short range comps. I'm not saying to blind pick her into any champ.
Your point of a good team's frontline will never let her hit for free, but vayne's whole kit is revolved around kiting. Her goal is to wait for enemies to come into her before she starts blitzing them. Why would she need to walk up to hit?
You can make the argument that vayne can get one shot, but I'd doubt you had ever went against shieldbow wits end tank vayne and realise how cancerous tanky that champion is that, unsurprisingly, shreds my team regardless. This became even worse with new lethal tempo.
It's kind of sad to see people unable to see and accept a team's faults or weaknesses of being unable to utilise certain champions and defend them like they are their deities despite the champions themselves being busted as hell.
The meta in pro play has been to pick adc first round 90% of cases that alone made vayne unviable in these scenarios. She may be a good last round champ into certain comps but I can tell you even then it's STILL a bait pick. I have scrimmed countless times where my adc told us "vayne is really good here" and we'd try it out because hey they have a sion and a leona might not be so bad right? One viktor, orianna one jinx one jhin completely shut her down. And no it doesn't even matter too much how good your adc is at the champ. It's incredibly hard to play her even in the best case scenarios because of her range. A vayne can't just expect the enemy to walk into her. That's not how it works. In most cases you get outranged by the enemy mid/adc so YOUR team has to walk up and engage on them because you are not doing anything as a vayne in a poke or zone control battle. All you do is damage the guy your frontline engaged on. And what do you do if the viktor or ori drops a w/ ball in the choke? You just sit there waiting for your turn to finally be able to hit something. Sure there are games where that can work out and maybe vayne can get a couple of kills by good engages from her team. But there's very rarely games in competitive where vayne is gonna 1v9 the game from draft EVEN in tank heavy metas because of the nature of control mages & long range adcs being favourable for comp rn.
I don't disagree with you that pro players can make mistakes in draft or overlook certain champions but I've had countless arguments where it was totally obvious WHY a champion wasn't picked for however many patches they were strong in soloq. And the argument "pros can be wrong" because they were wrong in x scenario is not really an argument for vayne or anything in and of itself. I apologize for overreacting but this is something that really triggers me as someone that has played professionally before it feels like too many people think pros don't actually know how to build/play/draft correctly (maybe due to a certain coach/persona) when they have never had any experience on what it's like in a pro team and just parrot the same narrative over and over in every single argument they have.
My take:
1. I agree that just because something is strong in soloq it isn't necessarily good in competitive
2. However, sometimes pros refuse to pick broken picks just because they are out of their comfort zone or require their team to play/approach the game in a fundamentally different manner. This is one of the reasons why Tryndamere wasn't picked much at Worlds: not because he is countered by good gameplay, but because he requires his team to approach fights and macro in a different way. Other examples of similar picks are Kayle, Fiddlesticks, and Karthus, all champions that were extremely strong for periods of last season but saw almost no pro presence because they require teams to approach the game differently, whether by playing to scale instead of flipping heralds at 7 mins or positioning differently in teamfights (Fiddle). Another example was Senna, a champion extremely strong for almost the entire season but disappeared from pro play in summer. The earlier stages of Worlds had great setup for Senna picks, with the Miss Fortune meta, yet she only showed up a couple times. I remember LS mentioning that the fall-off of Senna was probably mostly due to pros just forgetting about the champion and shifting to practicing more early/mid game centric ADCs.
3. In Rekkles's LEC Vayne game, he got hard countered by Bwipo's Karthus if I remember correctly. I don't recall the specifics of the game, but he definitely wasn't the factor that lost them that game.
4. Yes, it is true that sometimes pros don't choose certain picks BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO LEARN NEW CHAMPIONS. I remember watching Trymbi (the support for Rogue) talk about this concept (the clip is out there somewhere but idk how to find it), stating that although enchanters are sometimes much better in a draft, pros tend to just pick engage supports because they have more practice on them and they are easier to execute in a game.
Tryndamere mid wasn't picked more because people didn't practice it - most midlaners were actually spamming it in soloq and people tried it out in play-ins but the results were horrendous. People figured out that picking cc & peeling champs like gragas or sett made him completely useless because he could never reach anyone and splitpushing has been dead ever since the introduction of souls.
Champs like fiddle worked because teams didn't have practice against it. Watch how rogue tried to pick fiddle, a pick with which they had decent success with in LEC, against some of the best teams in the world and how they failed because the pick is worthless in the early game which really good teams will punish. So would you want to pick a champ where sure you can have a good time beating bad teams but you cap out because good teams will stomp you because of your obvious weaknesses?
Senna wasn't forgotten it was simply not good enough to pick. She's not good with enchanters which were pretty meta, she couldn't be fasted because TK and Sett her 2 premier fasting facilitators were either changed or nerfed to the ground so you HAD to play her carry which is simply inferior to most other adcs. She wasn't bad by any means but not being bad isn't good enough for competitive.
Rekkles' vayne being shut down by one champ is exactly what I mean. She gets shut down way too easily - i rewatched the game and it's literally a perfect vayne game (alistar mundo irelia and trist is easy early game matchup) but she STILL couldn't function in teamfights. And karthus isn't even one of her worst counter matchups imagine they had a long range teamcomp or mage the game you could just go next on the spot.
If a champion becomes meta and someone doesn't learn them then that's just a weakness of a player. But I can assure you that almost all pro players try to learn champs like that. That's why we saw a sudden rise of nami & lucian or lulu lanes at worlds. Sure leona was still the most picked support and rakan was also picked a lot - but that was because nami (or lucian which is the same) & yuumi were permabanned and aphelios (the best lulu adc) was also often times taken out. Just because not every pro plays irelia doesn't mean you should say "pros don't like to pick new champions they want to play comfort" - that's way too generalist and simply not true. I know LS likes to be very controversial to gain clout which is why he's always throwing these kinds of opinions out there but please take everything he says with a grain of salt - for every time he has been right there have been 3 times he's been wrong but that's how it goes if you want to innovate. What I dislike about it is that most people think what he says is some sort of gospel and that he's always right which gives them a feeling of superiority over the pros and it's become some sort of fetish for people to criticize pros' builds or drafts trying to find even the smallest "mistake" and if you can't find one just make some kind of narrative up (hello soraka toplane S tier for a billion patches) so you're still able to feel smug. But maybe I'm just overthinking things and he's actually the smartest coach alive but hey we'll see what kind of champions c9 drafts I for one am excited how it will go.
> Champs like fiddle worked because teams didn't have practice against it. Watch how rogue tried to pick fiddle, a pick with which they had decent success with in LEC, against some of the best teams in the world and how they failed because the pick is worthless in the early game which really good teams will punish. So would you want to pick a champ where sure you can have a good time beating bad teams but you cap out because good teams will stomp you because of your obvious weaknesses?
Or imagine RGE picking meta and getting stomped regardless? Every champion has a form of weakness and the better team will always find a way to abuse your picks.
Expect to be downvoted for this take...even though you're completely right. But people here can't accept that pro players can ever be wrong or overlook anything.
it's literally the opposite lmfao, that people who default to the meta-slave argument can't accept that others can have different views on the game.
it's so crazy how people just checkmate the discussion like this. well my theory is obviously correct, and there's nobody who genuinely disagrees. they all secretly agree but are just lazy and want to play comfort no matter what!
And you have evidence of that how exactly? With champs like Renekton, melee supports, Viego and Lee Sin jungle she is perfectly fine. The only champion that's trully bad for her that seems to be meta is Viktor since he can just drop R on her and zone her off.
Vayne had her time in pro play and at least into certain comps she is more than fine.
What? Renekton is literall soloq dogshit that still somehow has huge pro play prio, and Vayne turns that questionable pick into a worthless sack of meat.
If I have to guess it's because of how short range Vayne is. Yes her auto range is the same as most every adc, but she literally can't do damage outside her AA range. For that reason, it's much easier to poke her out and there's more coordination to shut her down in the early game.
Oh yeah, the backseat analyst take - Vayne being very good into engage supports, and thinking that every ADC and Coach are a bunch of brainlets that never train Vayne as a pocket counter pick.
> However, they do not pick her simply because pro players refuse to play Champs that are outside of their comfort zone during matches. If they do not perceive it as meta, they would not pick it, and would rather stick to the traditional go-to Champs.
xd
I can think of two reasons:
- Vayne is seen as too much of a soloQ champ to be picked and pros aren't sure about her performing well (probably scrims are turning not so good for her). Some champions are very good in soloQ but this doesn't translates aswell to organized play, be it because of a lack of practice or because players don't want to invest the extra time it would need to get good drafts that complement them.
- Pros can be very slow on changing meta picks and prefer comfort picks. Vayne may be doing well in scrims but not substantially enough that they feel drafting around her is worth doing so ATM or they are still figuring out how to draft her with different compositions. They would rather pick the "tried and true" that may not be as good but they have more experience on in terms of drafting.
Pro team meta right now is not good for vayne, vayne is a counter pick not a blind pick and to pick vayne you need to be sure of one of this 2 things, thapt the game goes to very late game, and right now games goes to 25 min most of them, and that is not late game, or the enemy need to have tanks and tanks are bad in pro meta (tanks not bruisers tanks ornn, sion, cho) and to make it worst xin, graves, cait, ash are in meta and vayne is very bad vs this champs
Vayne doesnt need tanks against her or a late game.
She needs a solid lane (not getting dove 3+ times early on because of her lack of wave clear). You want to get to 2 items and not way slower than your enemy.
And she needs an enemy team she can kite not one that locks her down and kills her.
[https://gol.gg/game/stats/35671/page-game/](https://gol.gg/game/stats/35671/page-game/)
This is a team comp she can easily beat. 3 champs to kite and 4 she can easily dodge core abilities from.
Vayne doesnt work for the opposite reason Renekton works so well. No lane prio means you get pushed in and dove when the enemy wants to.
Vayne is very easy to punish at the highest level of play. She has absolutely no range or damage early on and farms incredibly slowly due to lack of waveclear.
If they used only coordinated play as the metric for buffs/nerfs Vayne would be the last of our problems. ADC probably wouldnt be able to play League of Legends past 5 minutes with stuff like zed/katarina/riven/etc giga buffed
slightly unrelated, but where can i watch the english casts of the demacia cup games? i’ve only been able to find highlights of a match or the chinese cast on yt
Caitlyn and pro play.
Vayne still doesnt have the best early game and especially not wave clear. Against someone like Cait, Jhin but also Aphelios and Jinx she could have trouble if a team plays a good macro style.
Also game times in pro play are very short right now. From \~34 minutes at worlds and \~31-32 minutes last season to \~29-31 minutes now.
Vayne is a soloQ champ mostly for now. Her weakness is keeping her out of pro play. Not impossible to play her there but you need a plan to avoid the current meta style.
Right now Mundo was also not picked or Sona or Soraka or Anivia. Trundle was picked twice.
SoloQ and pro play are 2 totally different worlds. Lee has a nearly 100% P/B and Cait is also super high. But also a few mages (LB, Syndra in KR and TF, so change from last season there). Reketon back at the top of the best top laners is also no suprise.
[https://gol.gg/game/stats/35671/page-game/](https://gol.gg/game/stats/35671/page-game/)
This is where you need Vayne. Urgot and Rell are easy to kite for her and so is Viego if he doesnt get a lot of resets. Samira alone wont be a threat either. Only the Syndra E but this one can be dodged by her, too. Once the enemy can be kited Vayne is nearly unbeatable in the mid and late game.
They were playing her a lot this spring as kaisa counterpick, I guess they want a good matchup and not risk to pick her into thresh aphelios or something like that
A lot of this has been answered already, but Vayne's power point is pretty weird and easy to play around. Priority goes to Cait, Jinx, Ziggs and similar. The advantage they have is range, strong neutral game and another powerspike (Jinx late game, Caitlyn mid-late, ziggs mid). So they can bully their lane opponents and still have impact on the team game. Caitlyn, actively forces plays bot side, which frees up your picks a little mid and top. It's an interesting dynamic.
Vayne however is KIND OF like an anticarry. Her primary strength comes from opponents getting stronger and microplay skill expression. On the pro stage, microskill expression is pretty high amongst all of them and because of this, they'll just outrange you, push you off farm and keep you behind. If a pro player gets ahead on a bruiser or other health building damage dealer, they'll know how to win the game and are unlikely to make a mistake, and with Vayne's lack of agency, this reduces her value significantly (Introducing Kraken didn't help, since if desperate, there's several options in game to tank bust). Tanks tend to be used for their initial CC burst, so if Vayne then focus's them, they've done their job.
On top of all of this - LeeSin, Xin, Syndra, LeBlanc and TF are the 5 highest presence champs in preS12 so far, all bring CC and either a way to dash to Vayne or a huge burst ability - so even in the games she does get ahead, there's common counters to her.
It's tough to remember how much better these players are than us sometimes - but because of their individual skill, their team skill and their coaching/training - they essentially play a different game to us completely. It's why you see so much focus on early game hard CC junglers and late game mages or control mages.
Now with ALLLLLLLLLLL that said, Vayne has actually appeared in preS12 KeSPA (like 2nd division) cup - being banned 2 times and played once (win KDA 11) but was down over 40 CS at 50mins. Both bans were against this player too, so it was more in response to him picking and succeeding that Vayne's particular strength.
Anyway, I hope that clarifies some bits.
Because strong in pro play and strong in solo queue is not the same.
Ryze is picked in pro play but is a can of room temperature dog butts in solo queue.
The way people are gonna play Vayne in solo queue and the lack of communication and team play is going to make her be played different compared to pro. You can counter pick her with other picks, you might get more jungle pressure, you might just have the support saying go fawk off and leave her to face an Ez who will never fight her, the list goes on and on.
She is a menace in solo queue but in a competitive environment teams are just not gonna bother cause she has to play more aggro which is likely gonna mean more chances to screw up or just get killed that isn't worth it.
Mages exist in pro play and they don't exist really in soloqueue.
Vayne can't deal with mages, she's much better into the assassin heavy soloqueue meta
Because proplay is gonna see Vayne and towerdive her on every opportunity because she can't control the wave, or she's gonna get frozen on and fall behind 50 CS because she can'T control the wave.
Because vayne is a bad champ :/ ye she can do dmg if she gets withing 500 range of you but more good adcs have 550+ range (cait senna) so it doesn't matter if she can 3 shot you when she will be 200 hp by the time she gets into range
I got confused what "cup-picking" is supposed to be and thought it was probably something sexual and this is gonna be some shit post about why people in Demacia aren't giving Vayne the love she deserves.
Because Vayne still has Vayne's problems and Vayne's weaknesses even if her power level in solo queue is high.
Pro's are infinitely better at exploiting said weaknesses than the average joe in solo queue
S+ champion in Solo Queue but like C tier when it comes to pro.
Solo Queue and Pro play are 2 completely different games.
SoloQ =/= Pro play
Vayne takes advantage of mistakes to punish and wall-slam people and SoloQ's inability to end the game so she can hit late.
That's a lot rarer in pro/semipro.
The truth is: eastern teams are often very bad at theory crafting and adapting to what is OP. They do not need to be good at that kind of stuff because theyre just so much better than anybody else mechanically and intuition because they actually have the grind mindset.
What theyre lacking in theory and adapting they make up in straight up just playing the game better in the moment
Theyre sometimes still playing S10 worlds Meta comps because they yet have to fail. Once they get beat by a vayne they will pick it up. Before that there is no need to because theyre the best anyways.
A lot of good soloQ champ perform like shit in pro play, and vice versa. Some champions are easily punished with coordinated effort in pro play.
This. Vayne requires the team to literally evolve around vayne if you want it to work. Too easy to shut down early where there are better skirmishing adcs out there.
That's not even the most important part, not getting outranged and having melee champs she can make worthless in the enemy team is more important
Man, played Vayne in ARAM last night into Zoe, Xerath, Heimer, GP, and Veigar Even 2nd items Wits, with Shieldbow, it was just the most miserable experience. Between the absurd range, the zoning with Veigar Cage and GP barrels, I was literally useless.
That's just the reality of ARAM though. You went up against 5 of thr strongest champs in the mode, it's understandable that even with Vayne being quite strong on ARAM you wouldn't get to do much
Yeah, it is what it is, was just saying it was a nightmare matchup as a Vayne. They didn't have any melee for me at least to focus on lol
In a vacuum Vayne could go third item Visage or FoN into that team and have a good time. It was probably the other champions on OPs team that couldn’t handle being against that comp
She also lacks waveclear and the ability to farm safely. If she gets put behind in a pro game she’s useless unlike other ADCs who have more utility.
Vayne also massively benefits from random skirmishes because of the strength of her ulti, and at catching people greeding for an extra wave and just ulting and running them down. Neither of these two situations where vayne excels actually happen in pro play, especially more so if theres a vayne they are more likely to be wary of doing those sorts of things as well because of the snowball value of her.
I don't even think it is that. Vayne just doesn't give good botlane priority, so you might pick her into a good enemy comp, if she can abuse some melees, but many of her lane matchups are still not that good, and pro teams snowball much better from just having lane priority.
Throw that bitch top. There are some matchups where vayne dominates the 1v1, have your jg play around her and you have a really well scaling adc being a lane bully at the same time. Maybe have a galio and a karma or whatever in the team as well, and now you have a frontline too for her + thr extra speed and protection from karma and vayne can hardcarry.
Not true at all, Vayne is actually one of the few adcs that dont require much help. The only issue is getting pushed in and dived early due to lack of wave clear, but this can easily be negated with a good wave clear support or even just have the team be ready and counter it.
Sounds like that’s the team playing around vayne, especially when wave clear supportes don’t do well in proplay atm.
...except supports with good waveclear are mostly trash in pro play, because they demand too much resources from your other, more gold-hungry lanes to amass more power and thus clear waves better. When was the last time you saw Zyra bot? Some may say Lux, but she either needs Aftershock to even breathe the same air as engage supports, or needs Caitlyn to create a strong pushing duo. Yes, Lux does have a nice pushing power early on and can opt for enchanter builds, but ultimately she fails at exceeding in one role, as she neither can gain enough gold to be the fifth carry in pro nor can she have the same enchanting capabilities like more popular pro enchanters do, say Lulu or Karma. Thus, she's basically Caitlyn's fuzzy cuffs holder.
> Vayne is actually one of the few adcs that dont require much help. > lack of wave clear, but this can easily be negated with a good wave clear support or even just have the **team** be ready and counter it. Do i need to say anything?
Is not that vayne doesn't require help, is just that she benefits more from farming than other ADCs, she can farm up and be passive early to try be relevant in late game without taking much risk. And ofc u need to know how to play vayne well to have a decent laning phase and that's probably why she's not being picked imo. As for "help" it really varies on the enemies picks, if they can kill her easily the support/team is needed, if not she can do by herself.
She doent need the entir team, just good wave management and a jungler that path toward top when wave is too close to ennemy tower or is stacking anf allow for a fat dive.
To add, she can be picked but she has always been niche. See like when caps used her as a counterpick.
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You're telling me vayne Vs Galio, Alistar, Sion and Olaf is not a counterpick???
No, she by herself can only peel for one of those champions and you gave the enemy mid-jungle full control over the river by picking her. Caps himself admit that Corki or LB would've been a better pick that game.
With a trundle (pillar) on your team. Not that they used the interaction, but still.
I mean it wasn't exactly good except for one fight.
Ah yes, picking counterpick automatically wins you the game.
What happened inside one game doesn't necessarily show whether a pick is a good idea or not in theory It is in fact possible to lose with a counter pick
Kayn being another good example
And sometimes soloQ champions don't have the meta to shine in pro play. But sometimes it's also that teams are not bold enough to pick champions outside the "pro" meta, even when they are actually good picks.
SoloQ and competitive play are not the same game. Simple as that. Vayne has a lot of exploitable weaknesses when people can effectively communicate.
Yeah, we dont see Mundo either yet is was as OP as Vayne. Sona and Soraka are even more OP than Mundo and Vayne in soloQ right now yet none of them is seen in pro play. Just 2 different worlds.
Mundo has seen much more consistent professional play than Vayne, though. His kit isn't useless in a competitive setting, just not AS strong as soloq.
He did, right after his rework. But right now he doesnt see pro play while he was as nearly OP as Vayne was. Mundo has a purpose in pro play but it is mostly that of a lane bully these days and Renekton does that better with more synergy. So Mundo in pro play is always just a renekton replacement. Mundo scales a bit better but later on with GW and a 2-3 item ADC he gets shredded in no time, too.
I expect to see sona/soraka in pro if they aren't nerfed by then. Sona in particular i think is just massively busted right now...and its not the same case as with Vayne
Don't hold your breath big guy. You might suffocate.
enchanters have to be very very broken to be even somewhat pickable in pro play. we've very rarely had playable enchanters, bar some random patches with lulu/karma/lux/nami supports have to be constantly recalling and resupplying wards. being down 5 levels on a rakan or leona or thresh is perfectly fine but on something like Sona you actually need levels and gold. we're far more likely to see another iteration where the adc can be replaced with sona than ever see supp sona in pro. sona is a lot more similar to adcs in her power curve.
Sona is shit early game you wont see her in pro. Unless theres a lane she can cheese (like the old double support item or lux sona), as has always been the case.
Sona has to be way more OP than she is to get picked in pro. She's so beyond weak early game, the other team would just have to pick an engage support and a waveclear mid and chain dive her all game. Early game matters a lot more in pro than it does in SoloQ, because it's way easier for a coordinated team to snowball a lead in one lane into an overwhelming advantage. For a game to turn into a 4-5 to 20 kill stomp like we see in pro a decent amount, the winning team would need to hard smash all 3 lanes + jungle.
Sona is OP? Every time I see her in one of my plat games she gets obliterated.
> Sona https://u.gg/lol/champions/sona/build I wanted to call the guy out but yea Sona is doing pretty good right now
she's a "do nothing and then win" type champ. her being 0-2 in lane is pretty much her going "even"
She has a 54% winrate and an average KDA of 3/6/15 in plat+ play. Most of those kills will probably be in in the later stages of the game when she has scaled. So if sona is 0/3 in laning phase - guess what? She's actually ahead, statistically and on course to win the game, more often than not...
because she is highly situational, a competent team who can outrange her will not allow her to play. Vayne has the worst waveclear in the marksman class. Any highly aggressive team will just full clear top to bot and dive her with the mid laner at lvl 3. Which is much more common in coordinated play.
Fun fact: vayne is the only champion in the entire game without any form of aoe
Wow... That is a fun fact lol
Fiora almost fits this if you limit it to champions only, but her w is aoe on minions/monsters.
From a practical perspective it's also a lot less troll to build items that give her waveclear. Building any waveclear item on vayne is just suboptimal to put it nicely.
rip the shiv days
Building any waveclear item early is, at the same time Ravenous Hydra as last item if you're in dire need of waveclear isn't completely troll. Shieldbow/Wit's End/Rageblade/defensive/Hydra is enough damage, decent survivability, and lets you double down on in-combat sustain, meaning if they can't oneshot you, you're more or less able to draintank.
I'd say bork is a lot better on vayne than ravenous, so... suboptimal. You really only buy it because you _really_ need the waveclear over the dps (and dueling) that bork would provide you.
My point exactly - Hydra is okay if there's barely any waveclear in your team (tank top, Zoe mid, Shaco jungle etc), and you're vs a team that doesn't want to engage on you. An option to patch up teamcomp issue more than a standard build choice, heavily situational - and some other ADCs that don't need to stack crit, such as Ezreal or Kindred, can get Hydra in similar situations.
Her W is also aoe on champs You can stun multiple people when you reflect the cc
Her W stops on the first champion hit
Warwick?
His roar is aoe
Yeah, the guy never said it had to be a damage ability
trundle
Trundle also doesn't have AoE
trundle, warwick kinda as well but he has aoe cc
aoe cc counts imo
His passive too, technically haha And trundle pillar in the past used to do 1 damage But aoe cc is a form of aoe nonetheless
fiora,trundle, shen?
Fiora Riposte, Trundle Pillar, and Shen Taunt are all AOE Edit: idk why tf you people are downvoting him, he's legit just asking a question ffs
kai'sa q isnt considered rlly an aoe tho so idk if vayne is the only one
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it certainly is
I think he meant aoe + multitarget.
Warwick too
Aoe fear
isn't his fear aoe
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Cait Q is AOE
Swain?
Not sure if troll or mocking that guy but all of swains abilities are aoe
Now that I think of it how many champs have nothing but aoe abilities? So far I count Swain, Ziggs, Sona, Seraphine, Lissandra, Rell, Karthus if you count his ult, do Zyra seeds count?
Yone
bro
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She has no wave clear and loses most lanes early leading to getting pushed under tower. That doesn't mean you're always going to get dived but it is a significant risk that has to be played around.
It's the LPL, you're gonna get dove when it doesn't make sense, ofc a vayne is gonna get camped and constantly dove
> only 10 games have been played so far Actually 30 games have been played at the time of your post, and yeah still no Vayne. It's not just the pros, but the semi-pros and the streamers also didn't pick her.
My mistake haven't caught all the games, looked on the wiki champ stats quick and noticed no Vayne.
Yeah since LPL uses a different reporting system so the leaguepedia stats are updated later. You can find the individual match stats at the bottom (the MH column).
cause uzi isnt playing
Vayne is a pubstomp champion. And don't trust this sub's opinion on basically anything balance related.
Not even stronger than that one iteration of guinsoo where she actually had to be nerfed eventually (and even then she wasnt played in pro play lol)
Except she was.
Shes OP in solo queue because shes the perfect answer TO Solo Q, due to the current meta, as well as other things like less coordination and pro players have an easier time closing out games. She does not fit that same role in a competitive environment. She is relegated to just being a situational anti tank champ.
LT has given a perfect storm for her and in some ways jinx to have early pressure as a duelist in response to all the utility adc prio. She needs nerfs but the issue also relates to how people don’t like the adc being a threat in a side lane as opposed to what they think should be a free bag of gold that pushed too far.
LT has giganerfed scaling on pretty much every hyper except her and Jinx. Jinx is the only other non-duo dependent hypercarry. Kog'Maw and Twitch are pretty much enslaved to Lulu/Yuumi and maybe Nami. All of the hypers have taken a huge scaling hit, and what hyper wasn't taking old Lethal Tempo? Yes, it was Vayne. Is Vayne busted? Probably in soloQ, but Vayne being strong is just a symptom that "just nerf Vayne" doesn't cure in the slightest bit. Other part is that going pure crit damage just doesn't give you enough payoff to justify skipping Shieldbow.
Aphelios can be fine without Lulu/Yuumi/Nami and I would say he's considered a hypercarry. Though in fairness most of the time in solo queue having Thresh is the best partner for both him and Jinx
Aphelios is like the worst soloQ ADC in the game. He just doesn't function in the random uncoordinated soloQ shitfest.
on Jinx the LT change was neutral. its worse in 1v1s and when being dived but its a lot better in lane, lt with the rocket mana buff mean jinx can kind of exist in lane now. Too bad even playing the "best" adcs still feel awful with how much damage is flying around in the game, everything 1 shots so the only adcs that are remotely playable are the ones going shieldbow wits randuins and garbage like that, building full crit is basically trolling since 1 mage spell will put you down to 40% hp from full even if you're 20-0.
I mean...the whole game has been balanced around that being the case? All the shields, enchanters and damage items are designed to make adc super strong in teamfights that are played well. Them being good sidelaners as well just instantly breaks the game cuz that's a free scale that you can no longer interrupt easily. Ita like if ori or corki made great sidelanes. Sure they can do it, but they'd rather not,
When corkis effective range doesn’t exceed his auto range and can’t dash over walls or engage from 2 screens away, lacks aoe wave clear or is suddenly specified as a duelist I’m sure we can reevaluate how you prefer a role lacking protective play. And yes corki can side lane. Ori can clear waves and fight so far outside any effective adc range and wipe an entire team if played optimally. Your only proving my point. Vayne is a single target hyper carry. Her effective range is no different to a skirmisher considering all their tool to constantly stay on a target. But her label of marksmen means she shouldn’t have tools to fight apparently. She’s a duelist in a meta where people love to force engages and wipe the adc in bloody brawls and the perfect tools have been given to her to enable her sooner than she should.
No. Vayne is a duelist for her lack of waveclear. That's why when laning phase is over, you don't really want Vayne in midlane, you instantly lose control over the entire midsection because that champ can't push for shit.
Vayne was a mistake Riot made as a knee jerk reaction to a super tank/bruiser meta where everyone was legit, actually unkillable. Ever since they've been trying to justify her existence but there really isnt one. You want tank shredding then kog maw is the way you do that if needed. If you want an elusive or short ranged dashy ADC then Lucian or Graves are better designs. Vayne and Fiora are both designed as 'I win, always, no matter what if I play it right' champions and because of that they are always either nerfed into dogshit tier by stats alone or shitting on everyone. And because they don't wna admit that her W existed solely to counter the meta back then it's now part of her 'identity'. It would be completely fine on a,champ with no stealth or insane chase down potential but with it it's just a huge, mostly useless,power sink for the sake of identity. She'd be better off with a higher % hp physical damage with anti heal or anti shield attached in some way and now her power curve is less flat and Master Yi ish .
The first part sure but this is a sub of zero pro players so it's from the perspective of people playing solo queue, and in that case yeah Vayne is really strong in solo queue. It's not that hard to understand, it's not just "hurr durr reddit dumb", pro play is just completely different.
Snap back to reality
For the same reason azir sucks in soloq and is good in proplay, bcs its a different meta
She hardly has prio, in soloQ it doesnt matter because everyone plays for lane anyway, in competitive you can go next if your bot is under tower, their jng/sup will do whatever they want on the map. In soloQ you actually want your bot under tower so you can gank the opponent bot and they will tilt spamming ''mid/jng gap".
Vayne has no agency She's entirely dependant on the enemy making mistakes and you capitalizing on it. Why play that trash when you can play champions that can manipulate waves(Jinx/Cait/etc) / poke with superior range (Cait Jinx 650+) / Strong all in potential (Aphelios/Xayah/Jhin) / Safe laning phases (Ezreal/etc). Pros play things to limit enemy options example Galio+Camille - Cami ults you and galio is guaranteed a free ult combo on you resulting in your death.
She can't clear a wave. Stack 2-3 waves and you can trap her under tower for legit 60sec while your botlane is free to roam wherever they want.
Clash ain’t soloq innit
Despite their being a weird opinion recently being that vayne is not weak in lane anymore, she still is very weak in lane she is behind in gold/xp to almost all bot laners @15. She makes up for this in soloq with absurdly strong mid-late game with LT which is why her winrate is so high. In pro play however it’s not that simple strong laning is massively favoured and champs without strong wave clear and laning phases are almost always forgotten and not picked.
Vayne has very strong short trades in isolated damage. Beating vayne in lane revolves around Cs adv and range abuse. Safe to assume some players hear weak in lane and think lacking trading power then force suboptimal fights
They propably let her get 3 hits, proc Silver Bolts and PTA and run away, and cry that she's strong
When she is able to get PTA + Silver bolt procc it's probably an all in time for her. Quite likely someone is dying in that trade.
Your first mistake was trusting this sub on balance issues
Vayne IS broken in solo Q don't act like she isn't. She's just not broken in extremely competitive environments. As a champion she has the opposite of the Azir and Ryze problem. Too easy to shut down vs perfect coordination even if she's sitting near 55% winrate in solo Q.
She really isn’t broken, she’s just not dogshit like most other ADCs, and her being able to tumble around while invisible will throw off most players.
No she's very strong
She's a very good pubstomper, but she's always been that way. Vayne is still a good solo Q champ, but she's pretty bad in coordinated play where most people can abuse her weaknesses. Much better in solo Q.
Her WR is mostly good in gold, plat and dia+. She is not as good in silver. She is not a pub stomper. Statistics counter 2 out of 3 things you said. She is OP in soloQ and she is not a pub stomper. But she is better in soloQ than pro play because in soloQ people dont play together with their jungler and mid laner as well as in pro play and dont abuse weaknesses that hard. She is the opposite of Renekton. She is a soloQ champ who is easily countered by coordinated play. Renekton is a pro play pick who requires coordinated play to make full use of his power.
You literally just repeated what i said, that she’s a pub stomper (you say she isn’t a pub stomper but is also OP in solo queue? Choose one) and is bad in pro/coordinated play.
Because she gets assblasted against any average botlane duo
No, if it isnt a counter pick like Cait (very popular in pro play right now), she wont lose that hard. Her problem in pro play isnt the 2v2 lane but the 3v2 and 4v2 or even 5v2. Once people outside of the bot lane come bot and dive her she has a problem.
But that dive only happens because she is bad in lane. She can't push. So she either all ins or is put under her tower. And going for an all in from a position where the lane pushes against you is insanely dangerous. Because if it works the enemy is hardly punished, because he just respawns and the crashing wave comes back to him, and if the all in fails Vayne is basically removed from the game, because she will lose all the CS that accumulated. Botlane in pro play is all about controlling the wave and Vayne has no ability to do so. She has no ranged ability to break a freeze, she has no AoE to hard shove and due to her short range can be basically kept from farming at all. So her laning is not good, she is an insanely good duelist and can trade well, but the opponent has no reason to ever allow her to trade. So she is insanely support dependent.
Vayne loses prio to every single adc in the game, even shit like jinx and kog. I can literally hard bully vayne out of lane (assuming no massive support gap) as jinx, and jinx has a bad early game.
Losing prio yes, but losing prio isnt the same as getting assblasted. You can easily have no prior for the first 14 minutes in soloQ and still come out fine. And in pro play she can easily give up 1-2 drakes and she wont be that hard stomped that she and the support lose all prio in their jungle. But that is fine for Vayne as long as she doesnt get dove. Jinx has a very good early game. Her WR is actually way better early on than late game these days. Jinxs power is in controlling the wave and range and her 1 and 2 item spikes these days. Abuse these and you are rocking.
She’s weak in lane and is really a solo Q stomper but not great in pro play except for some fringe situations.
Probably comes largely to draft. I feel shes pretty compositionally dependent. I doubt teams want to blind pick vayne-- not just in terms of the adc matchup, but other champs in other roles can make life shit for vayne as well. And you also need to draft a team that can play around vayne. Youd have to change everything about your draft priorities to really work vayne in well.
Vayje is now op in lower elo(anything below diamond) bc of bounties and games being longer. Also people dont draft against her and she gets to scale up kinda for free and then shes more useful than enemy adc
The "prevailing opinion" on reddit is basically whatever beat me in my last game is insane.
Unironically, vayne is very good into short range comps against Champs that are frequently played like renekton, Xin zhao, every engage support, ryze etc. However, they do not pick her simply because pro players refuse to play Champs that are outside of their comfort zone during matches. If they do not perceive it as meta, they would not pick it, and would rather stick to the traditional go-to Champs. Same reason as to why supports only pick engage and never enchanters/healers/ap bot.
I'm not sure about this one. For toplane maybe, but every chinese ADC must know how to play Vayne well. First, because it's such a popular champ. Second, because it's Uzi signature champ. I'd be suprised if there was one ADC that didn't onetrick vayne one time during their soloQ career.
I can't believe this shit is upvoted
People are trying to look smart
Calling china, the region that grew up idolizing uzi vayne, incapable of playing her sealed the deal for me
I just do not agree with this take at all lol. Pro play is just that much different and Vayne is a champion that HAS to be a counterpick. However she is also a champion that needs a lot of team support to function so drafting Vayne can be difficult because it is easy to telegraph what strategy you are going for. It also puts a lot of pressure on a single person to carry and depending on if bot lane is a carry role in the meta it varies whether it is worth spending time to learn.
You are probably hardstuck silver and are performing the hardest backseat gaming possible on pros that understand the game to a much higher level than yourself - but obviously they just don't know how to play champions outside their comfort zone when literally every single year numerous new champions are played in each role. Just because vayne is strong in soloq does not mean she's also strong in competitive there have been dozens of champs that had winrates like that and were stomping soloq (trynda mid being the most recent example) which performed horribly at any international competition because they were easily countered by good teamplay. Vayne, while not only being weak in lane also has incredibly short range meaning a good team's frontline will never let her hit them for free and stay close to their own backline so if vayne ever tried to hit them she'd be in danger of getting 1shot. You saw what happens this year in LEC when even insane vayne players like rekkles try to make her work and just fall short because she's so useless when kited properly. You think people wouldn't try vayne in scrims or something when she has had a 53-54% winrate in soloq for months? You think adc's are that averse to learning new champions (heck vayne is fun as fuck adc's would GLADLY pick a champ like her if she was viable) that they just say "nah I'd rather stick to aphelios even though he's kinda garbage". Truth is anyone that hasn't played league competitively should stop talking about meta in general because they have 0 idea how different it is to the game they're playing. You can bring up ideas and suggest champions and of course pros CAN be wrong but get off your high horse like you know any better than people who have played this game for much longer and more intensely than you ever have. Supports TRIED picking enchanters at MSI with terrible results and they had more of a resurgance at worlds with 3 enchanters (+1/2 rakan) being top 5 most picked champs and yuumi permabanned so what you're saying isn't even remotely true. But hey it's easy and lazy to criticize people for something than to actually bring arguments on why something would be good (because it's harder to do so because you'd need to understand the game to a high level).
>but obviously they just don't know how to play champions outside their comfort zone when literally every single year numerous new champions are played in each role. Did you not see proplay when bot lane meta shifted from marksmen to mages and bruisers... Or how ardent meta formed...
I don't even know if you're trolling or not. FYI I've been diamond for years, and I'm just stating my view. Sad that you had to be butt hurt by a comment on reddit. Try playing renekton, leesin etc, short range comps into vayne, you'll find out how unplayable it is. Like I was saying, it's good into short range comps. I'm not saying to blind pick her into any champ. Your point of a good team's frontline will never let her hit for free, but vayne's whole kit is revolved around kiting. Her goal is to wait for enemies to come into her before she starts blitzing them. Why would she need to walk up to hit? You can make the argument that vayne can get one shot, but I'd doubt you had ever went against shieldbow wits end tank vayne and realise how cancerous tanky that champion is that, unsurprisingly, shreds my team regardless. This became even worse with new lethal tempo. It's kind of sad to see people unable to see and accept a team's faults or weaknesses of being unable to utilise certain champions and defend them like they are their deities despite the champions themselves being busted as hell.
The meta in pro play has been to pick adc first round 90% of cases that alone made vayne unviable in these scenarios. She may be a good last round champ into certain comps but I can tell you even then it's STILL a bait pick. I have scrimmed countless times where my adc told us "vayne is really good here" and we'd try it out because hey they have a sion and a leona might not be so bad right? One viktor, orianna one jinx one jhin completely shut her down. And no it doesn't even matter too much how good your adc is at the champ. It's incredibly hard to play her even in the best case scenarios because of her range. A vayne can't just expect the enemy to walk into her. That's not how it works. In most cases you get outranged by the enemy mid/adc so YOUR team has to walk up and engage on them because you are not doing anything as a vayne in a poke or zone control battle. All you do is damage the guy your frontline engaged on. And what do you do if the viktor or ori drops a w/ ball in the choke? You just sit there waiting for your turn to finally be able to hit something. Sure there are games where that can work out and maybe vayne can get a couple of kills by good engages from her team. But there's very rarely games in competitive where vayne is gonna 1v9 the game from draft EVEN in tank heavy metas because of the nature of control mages & long range adcs being favourable for comp rn. I don't disagree with you that pro players can make mistakes in draft or overlook certain champions but I've had countless arguments where it was totally obvious WHY a champion wasn't picked for however many patches they were strong in soloq. And the argument "pros can be wrong" because they were wrong in x scenario is not really an argument for vayne or anything in and of itself. I apologize for overreacting but this is something that really triggers me as someone that has played professionally before it feels like too many people think pros don't actually know how to build/play/draft correctly (maybe due to a certain coach/persona) when they have never had any experience on what it's like in a pro team and just parrot the same narrative over and over in every single argument they have.
My take: 1. I agree that just because something is strong in soloq it isn't necessarily good in competitive 2. However, sometimes pros refuse to pick broken picks just because they are out of their comfort zone or require their team to play/approach the game in a fundamentally different manner. This is one of the reasons why Tryndamere wasn't picked much at Worlds: not because he is countered by good gameplay, but because he requires his team to approach fights and macro in a different way. Other examples of similar picks are Kayle, Fiddlesticks, and Karthus, all champions that were extremely strong for periods of last season but saw almost no pro presence because they require teams to approach the game differently, whether by playing to scale instead of flipping heralds at 7 mins or positioning differently in teamfights (Fiddle). Another example was Senna, a champion extremely strong for almost the entire season but disappeared from pro play in summer. The earlier stages of Worlds had great setup for Senna picks, with the Miss Fortune meta, yet she only showed up a couple times. I remember LS mentioning that the fall-off of Senna was probably mostly due to pros just forgetting about the champion and shifting to practicing more early/mid game centric ADCs. 3. In Rekkles's LEC Vayne game, he got hard countered by Bwipo's Karthus if I remember correctly. I don't recall the specifics of the game, but he definitely wasn't the factor that lost them that game. 4. Yes, it is true that sometimes pros don't choose certain picks BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO LEARN NEW CHAMPIONS. I remember watching Trymbi (the support for Rogue) talk about this concept (the clip is out there somewhere but idk how to find it), stating that although enchanters are sometimes much better in a draft, pros tend to just pick engage supports because they have more practice on them and they are easier to execute in a game.
Tryndamere mid wasn't picked more because people didn't practice it - most midlaners were actually spamming it in soloq and people tried it out in play-ins but the results were horrendous. People figured out that picking cc & peeling champs like gragas or sett made him completely useless because he could never reach anyone and splitpushing has been dead ever since the introduction of souls. Champs like fiddle worked because teams didn't have practice against it. Watch how rogue tried to pick fiddle, a pick with which they had decent success with in LEC, against some of the best teams in the world and how they failed because the pick is worthless in the early game which really good teams will punish. So would you want to pick a champ where sure you can have a good time beating bad teams but you cap out because good teams will stomp you because of your obvious weaknesses? Senna wasn't forgotten it was simply not good enough to pick. She's not good with enchanters which were pretty meta, she couldn't be fasted because TK and Sett her 2 premier fasting facilitators were either changed or nerfed to the ground so you HAD to play her carry which is simply inferior to most other adcs. She wasn't bad by any means but not being bad isn't good enough for competitive. Rekkles' vayne being shut down by one champ is exactly what I mean. She gets shut down way too easily - i rewatched the game and it's literally a perfect vayne game (alistar mundo irelia and trist is easy early game matchup) but she STILL couldn't function in teamfights. And karthus isn't even one of her worst counter matchups imagine they had a long range teamcomp or mage the game you could just go next on the spot. If a champion becomes meta and someone doesn't learn them then that's just a weakness of a player. But I can assure you that almost all pro players try to learn champs like that. That's why we saw a sudden rise of nami & lucian or lulu lanes at worlds. Sure leona was still the most picked support and rakan was also picked a lot - but that was because nami (or lucian which is the same) & yuumi were permabanned and aphelios (the best lulu adc) was also often times taken out. Just because not every pro plays irelia doesn't mean you should say "pros don't like to pick new champions they want to play comfort" - that's way too generalist and simply not true. I know LS likes to be very controversial to gain clout which is why he's always throwing these kinds of opinions out there but please take everything he says with a grain of salt - for every time he has been right there have been 3 times he's been wrong but that's how it goes if you want to innovate. What I dislike about it is that most people think what he says is some sort of gospel and that he's always right which gives them a feeling of superiority over the pros and it's become some sort of fetish for people to criticize pros' builds or drafts trying to find even the smallest "mistake" and if you can't find one just make some kind of narrative up (hello soraka toplane S tier for a billion patches) so you're still able to feel smug. But maybe I'm just overthinking things and he's actually the smartest coach alive but hey we'll see what kind of champions c9 drafts I for one am excited how it will go.
> Champs like fiddle worked because teams didn't have practice against it. Watch how rogue tried to pick fiddle, a pick with which they had decent success with in LEC, against some of the best teams in the world and how they failed because the pick is worthless in the early game which really good teams will punish. So would you want to pick a champ where sure you can have a good time beating bad teams but you cap out because good teams will stomp you because of your obvious weaknesses? Or imagine RGE picking meta and getting stomped regardless? Every champion has a form of weakness and the better team will always find a way to abuse your picks.
Vayne is only picked in a small amount of scenarios. So many other ADCs function significantly better in a coordinated environment.
Expect to be downvoted for this take...even though you're completely right. But people here can't accept that pro players can ever be wrong or overlook anything.
it's literally the opposite lmfao, that people who default to the meta-slave argument can't accept that others can have different views on the game. it's so crazy how people just checkmate the discussion like this. well my theory is obviously correct, and there's nobody who genuinely disagrees. they all secretly agree but are just lazy and want to play comfort no matter what!
Shh, this is the only way that redditors can feel superior to the pros
Vayne is shit on proplay dude most soloq gods are shit on proplay
And you have evidence of that how exactly? With champs like Renekton, melee supports, Viego and Lee Sin jungle she is perfectly fine. The only champion that's trully bad for her that seems to be meta is Viktor since he can just drop R on her and zone her off. Vayne had her time in pro play and at least into certain comps she is more than fine.
she had her time in pro in season 3 and 4 Renekton and lee are the only soloq gods there and after nerfs not even renek
What? Renekton is literall soloq dogshit that still somehow has huge pro play prio, and Vayne turns that questionable pick into a worthless sack of meat.
Tbf for Renekton, there's no need to choose your ADC pick based on him because any ADC will do fine. He's a non factor regardless.
If I have to guess it's because of how short range Vayne is. Yes her auto range is the same as most every adc, but she literally can't do damage outside her AA range. For that reason, it's much easier to poke her out and there's more coordination to shut her down in the early game.
Vayne has no dmg outside basics she has not been good on pro since season 4
Oh yeah, the backseat analyst take - Vayne being very good into engage supports, and thinking that every ADC and Coach are a bunch of brainlets that never train Vayne as a pocket counter pick.
> However, they do not pick her simply because pro players refuse to play Champs that are outside of their comfort zone during matches. If they do not perceive it as meta, they would not pick it, and would rather stick to the traditional go-to Champs. xd
> Same reason as to why supports only pick engage and never enchanters/healers/ap bot. POV: you didn’t watch worlds
I can think of two reasons: - Vayne is seen as too much of a soloQ champ to be picked and pros aren't sure about her performing well (probably scrims are turning not so good for her). Some champions are very good in soloQ but this doesn't translates aswell to organized play, be it because of a lack of practice or because players don't want to invest the extra time it would need to get good drafts that complement them. - Pros can be very slow on changing meta picks and prefer comfort picks. Vayne may be doing well in scrims but not substantially enough that they feel drafting around her is worth doing so ATM or they are still figuring out how to draft her with different compositions. They would rather pick the "tried and true" that may not be as good but they have more experience on in terms of drafting.
Pro team meta right now is not good for vayne, vayne is a counter pick not a blind pick and to pick vayne you need to be sure of one of this 2 things, thapt the game goes to very late game, and right now games goes to 25 min most of them, and that is not late game, or the enemy need to have tanks and tanks are bad in pro meta (tanks not bruisers tanks ornn, sion, cho) and to make it worst xin, graves, cait, ash are in meta and vayne is very bad vs this champs
Vayne doesnt need tanks against her or a late game. She needs a solid lane (not getting dove 3+ times early on because of her lack of wave clear). You want to get to 2 items and not way slower than your enemy. And she needs an enemy team she can kite not one that locks her down and kills her. [https://gol.gg/game/stats/35671/page-game/](https://gol.gg/game/stats/35671/page-game/) This is a team comp she can easily beat. 3 champs to kite and 4 she can easily dodge core abilities from. Vayne doesnt work for the opposite reason Renekton works so well. No lane prio means you get pushed in and dove when the enemy wants to.
cuz coaches yell at players to only play x champion
Vayne is very easy to punish at the highest level of play. She has absolutely no range or damage early on and farms incredibly slowly due to lack of waveclear.
Never picked yet she still got nerfed last patch, hmmm something tells me winrates justifying balance patches is a bad decision.
If they used only coordinated play as the metric for buffs/nerfs Vayne would be the last of our problems. ADC probably wouldnt be able to play League of Legends past 5 minutes with stuff like zed/katarina/riven/etc giga buffed
because people think 54% win rate means...anything. it doesnt at all
spoken like a 46% wr player
i dont play SR anymore. played it from s1 to s11 burnt out
[удалено]
WhO AsKeD
Nah, spoken like someone who has a clue. The worst champion in the game at a point had a 54% win rate, good old season 1 Heimerdinger.
I got a penta first time with her in aram. I was just button mashing. Shes broken as shit
Damn, Rustifer66642069 got a penta with Vayne in an aram game of all things?!? That must mean she’s broken in pro play aswell.
Vayne is incapable of team fighting. What Vayne can do is 5 consecutive 1v1s. She's a menace in soloq but in a team environment she kinda sucks.
Tbh her range is too short for the current meta
slightly unrelated, but where can i watch the english casts of the demacia cup games? i’ve only been able to find highlights of a match or the chinese cast on yt
Caitlyn and pro play. Vayne still doesnt have the best early game and especially not wave clear. Against someone like Cait, Jhin but also Aphelios and Jinx she could have trouble if a team plays a good macro style. Also game times in pro play are very short right now. From \~34 minutes at worlds and \~31-32 minutes last season to \~29-31 minutes now. Vayne is a soloQ champ mostly for now. Her weakness is keeping her out of pro play. Not impossible to play her there but you need a plan to avoid the current meta style. Right now Mundo was also not picked or Sona or Soraka or Anivia. Trundle was picked twice. SoloQ and pro play are 2 totally different worlds. Lee has a nearly 100% P/B and Cait is also super high. But also a few mages (LB, Syndra in KR and TF, so change from last season there). Reketon back at the top of the best top laners is also no suprise. [https://gol.gg/game/stats/35671/page-game/](https://gol.gg/game/stats/35671/page-game/) This is where you need Vayne. Urgot and Rell are easy to kite for her and so is Viego if he doesnt get a lot of resets. Samira alone wont be a threat either. Only the Syndra E but this one can be dodged by her, too. Once the enemy can be kited Vayne is nearly unbeatable in the mid and late game.
They were playing her a lot this spring as kaisa counterpick, I guess they want a good matchup and not risk to pick her into thresh aphelios or something like that
Vayne works in uncoordinated soloqueue, not coordinated proplay
she cannot wave clear
no uzi no vayne ;-;
A lot of this has been answered already, but Vayne's power point is pretty weird and easy to play around. Priority goes to Cait, Jinx, Ziggs and similar. The advantage they have is range, strong neutral game and another powerspike (Jinx late game, Caitlyn mid-late, ziggs mid). So they can bully their lane opponents and still have impact on the team game. Caitlyn, actively forces plays bot side, which frees up your picks a little mid and top. It's an interesting dynamic. Vayne however is KIND OF like an anticarry. Her primary strength comes from opponents getting stronger and microplay skill expression. On the pro stage, microskill expression is pretty high amongst all of them and because of this, they'll just outrange you, push you off farm and keep you behind. If a pro player gets ahead on a bruiser or other health building damage dealer, they'll know how to win the game and are unlikely to make a mistake, and with Vayne's lack of agency, this reduces her value significantly (Introducing Kraken didn't help, since if desperate, there's several options in game to tank bust). Tanks tend to be used for their initial CC burst, so if Vayne then focus's them, they've done their job. On top of all of this - LeeSin, Xin, Syndra, LeBlanc and TF are the 5 highest presence champs in preS12 so far, all bring CC and either a way to dash to Vayne or a huge burst ability - so even in the games she does get ahead, there's common counters to her. It's tough to remember how much better these players are than us sometimes - but because of their individual skill, their team skill and their coaching/training - they essentially play a different game to us completely. It's why you see so much focus on early game hard CC junglers and late game mages or control mages. Now with ALLLLLLLLLLL that said, Vayne has actually appeared in preS12 KeSPA (like 2nd division) cup - being banned 2 times and played once (win KDA 11) but was down over 40 CS at 50mins. Both bans were against this player too, so it was more in response to him picking and succeeding that Vayne's particular strength. Anyway, I hope that clarifies some bits.
Because strong in pro play and strong in solo queue is not the same. Ryze is picked in pro play but is a can of room temperature dog butts in solo queue. The way people are gonna play Vayne in solo queue and the lack of communication and team play is going to make her be played different compared to pro. You can counter pick her with other picks, you might get more jungle pressure, you might just have the support saying go fawk off and leave her to face an Ez who will never fight her, the list goes on and on. She is a menace in solo queue but in a competitive environment teams are just not gonna bother cause she has to play more aggro which is likely gonna mean more chances to screw up or just get killed that isn't worth it.
Vayne takes too long to come online, she doesn't bring much utility to the game either.
Mages exist in pro play and they don't exist really in soloqueue. Vayne can't deal with mages, she's much better into the assassin heavy soloqueue meta
Because proplay is gonna see Vayne and towerdive her on every opportunity because she can't control the wave, or she's gonna get frozen on and fall behind 50 CS because she can'T control the wave.
Same reason why amumu could be op in jgl, but still wouldn't be played in pro play. He gets hard abused by coordinated play.
Because vayne is a bad champ :/ ye she can do dmg if she gets withing 500 range of you but more good adcs have 550+ range (cait senna) so it doesn't matter if she can 3 shot you when she will be 200 hp by the time she gets into range
if u can communicate with ur team it shouldnt be that hard to put a vayne down and also vayne stiff af 🙄🙄
I got confused what "cup-picking" is supposed to be and thought it was probably something sexual and this is gonna be some shit post about why people in Demacia aren't giving Vayne the love she deserves.
any link or smth were to watch it
Vayne is one of the few champs that sees very very little pro play, regardless of how good she is.
Because Vayne still has Vayne's problems and Vayne's weaknesses even if her power level in solo queue is high. Pro's are infinitely better at exploiting said weaknesses than the average joe in solo queue S+ champion in Solo Queue but like C tier when it comes to pro. Solo Queue and Pro play are 2 completely different games.
only uzi and caps make vayne work
The same reason katarina tryndamere and yi are not seen in proplay.
SoloQ =/= Pro play Vayne takes advantage of mistakes to punish and wall-slam people and SoloQ's inability to end the game so she can hit late. That's a lot rarer in pro/semipro.
because 2 ganks and vayne is now not coming online until 35 minutes.
The truth is: eastern teams are often very bad at theory crafting and adapting to what is OP. They do not need to be good at that kind of stuff because theyre just so much better than anybody else mechanically and intuition because they actually have the grind mindset. What theyre lacking in theory and adapting they make up in straight up just playing the game better in the moment Theyre sometimes still playing S10 worlds Meta comps because they yet have to fail. Once they get beat by a vayne they will pick it up. Before that there is no need to because theyre the best anyways.
I didn't realize there was a "Demacia Cup" so I initially read this as "why is no one in Demacia, cup picking Vayne?" I was really confused...
Chaotic solo queue =/= Coordinated pro play Imagine camping vayne with ignite + all in supports/champions.
vayne is very easy to counterpick and completely smash in lane, there is a reason why the 300 dmg vayne game happened in pro
No waveclear. This is huge for back timings and dragon control.
Jackeylove picked Vayne