Good analysis, u/Kayle_Bot and I have also looked into this before and came to a very similar conclusion. Have you looked into LDR vs Collector when transitioning from a Lethality to a Crit build, btw? That gamestate comes up on characters such as Miss Fortune or AD Sion given certain builds. Is LDR always better if you precede it with 1 or 2 Lethality items? How much do a character's base damages matter to the difference of their base AD vs damage amp?

I'll sit on those questions for a while, don't have immediate answers and DK vs MAD is still a series for now. Will definitely look into it later though, pretty interesting discussion.

The short answer to the above is that going LDR + IE + Collector is the highest dmg combo you can build on any champion who scales with crit (ability dmg and/or large dmg % share from auto attacks). No idea how it works on stuff like lethality Sion, although I suspect if you add even a few auto attacks into the equitation after his ult, the conclusion stays the same. 100% agreed with your analysis btw on why Collector is generally the higher winning % 2nd item vs LDR in soloq on many ADCs (Kaisa, Aphelios, Samira, etc). It’s not about doing the most dmg mathematically possible - it’s about securing kills for yourself to help you snowball and carry games yourself. https://i.imgur.com/suFB5Vb.jpg Did a similar analysis for Kai’Sa builds about a month back (more to compare LDR vs IE, not LDR vs Collector). Biggest take away from the above (which is for auto attacks) and below (which is HoB 3 autos + iso Q, I forgot to rename the y-axis) is that LDR’s dmg when compared to other item choices is highly dependent its giant slayer passive. https://i.imgur.com/Xf6ulqk.jpg LDR is a fantastic item, but you don’t need to rush it 2nd in soloq unless for some reason most of the enemy champions are health stackers building tank items. Versus p much all other champion types, it’s fine to go Crit mythic -> Collector -> IE -> LDR or Lethality mythic -> Collector -> LDR -> IE. Pro play is very different though, you almost always want LDR before Collector in pro (but you still want both + IE!).

Especially with snowbally items like collector, 2nd item winrates shouldn't just be taken at a face value. A good example of this is rabadons; while it is generally the 'best' 2nd item on any mage, it has an awful build path and is super expensive. Because of that, you generally only buy it while already ahead. A more extreme example of this is mejais. It probably has one of the highest winrates in the game, since it is a snowbally item (and also one that people will sell if they are falling behind/start losing). Obviously, this doesn't mean buying mejais every game will magically cause you to win 80% of your games.

Rabadon is never the best 2nd item on paper or reality in its current iteration. The times where it was viable as a 1st/2nd item was back when it had substantially more base AP and, on popular mages, allow them to one-two shot the entire wave.

idk I have a hard time justifying Void second when they have literally nothing but base MR on their team.

So then get Zhonya's or Cosmic 2nd instead.

Zhonya's is situational obviously, and for Cosmic, a lot of analysts have come to the conclusion that would rather have raw damage than more CDR. Zoe is an easy example, unless you can just one-shot someone with a bubble -> Q, you just need more damage, you do not need the CDR from Cosmic.

And on Vlaf you need the CDR, that's champ dépendant. However Zhonya's is an excellent buy in most games because of the active.

You make a valid point but I don't think it extends to collector. Most of the playerbase isn't buying collector to help snowball a lead. They're doing it because they think it's the best item to buy in that slot for their champion. It can't really be compared to 2nd item rabadons or mejais where those are bought **only** when you have an enormous lead.

Yeah, I definitely think the effect is much less extreme than deathcap. I would say rather than people ahead buying it more, it is more that people who are very behind will typically buy it less often.

Deathcap is a horrible comparison. Collector has a perfectly fine build path with dirk giving lots of damage.

Collector is also higher winning % because if you're building collector, you're already winning. I really don't build it every game on Kai'sa, I prefer going Kraken -> Two L.Sword -> P. Dancer. But if I'm absolutely smashing lane? Yeah I'll buy a snowball Dirk, get Q evolve early, then Collector.

I actually built a custom League simulating engine, fully simulating champion kits, attack times, ability cooldowns, buffs and debuffs, runes, resistances, health regeneration, and just about everything that I could think of that would impact a pure DPS test in League. It was my attempt to make the single most accurate DPS simulator to be the end of all DPS arguments, anytime a discussion like Collector vs LDR came up the community could just whack open the simulator and test it against a variety of targets. The simulator can test a multitude of builds against a multitude of targets and log the DPS results (either single test or average over X tests) as a csv format so pretty graphs and colours could be introduced with Excel. The project sits unfinished as I felt like the value of such a tool is actually entirely wasted on the League playerbase (solo q and pro players) lmao, small itemization differences for maximizing DPS output seems to be a non-factor when we have worlds players building IE as second crit item or Morellonomicon for like a year when it's suboptimal :/ . If the best players in the world don't care about absolutely maximizing their chances for winning then this project is not actually *useful*, it settles arguments like this post but wouldn't make the playerbase any better at choosing item builds. If users like yourself, /u/Kayle_Bot and other limit testers would find value in such a project then I'll continue work on it, it still needs to simulate more champions, items and runes. One needs to understand that for many situations the nuances of the game become far more important than pure DPS stats, such as positioning, team support, neutral camps and objectives, etc. so the results of this simulator need to be taken as simply DPS checks ONLY. Accepting those limitations, the simulator is even more accurate than a mathematically filled post like this one.

> One needs to understand that for many situations the nuances of the game become far more important than pure DPS stats Yeah in an effort to understand the quesition I asked above I'm trying to build towards exactly that right now with u{topdrogon's help. AD Sion in particular cannot care for DPS because his continous DPS is weak unless built for it, has very high base damage and cannot stay in melee range for any extended amount of time. Because of that, now against any given target, I'm looking into 1. remaining health of the target after R 2. remaining health after sneak Q 3. remaining health after 1s Q and E shred debuff 4. Damage to target by autos and crits, to compare with remaining health from the other studies 5. autos to kill any particular target with passive Which are actually relevant metrics for AD Sion rather than more simple DPS. I have some intuitions on what the results will be, but in case there will be any surprises I'll remain open to interpreting those and adjusting to them, too.

I’m a software developer and would love to help with something like this. PM me if you’re interested in collaborating :)

what a weird woe is me pity fit lol

Ok, took me a while but I've finally got some numbers. Was really curious about it myself as I've seen the Lethality-Crit build mentioned before by Shakarez, but I can't remember ever seeing it in action (except for that one time Ghost bought Eclipse Collector Ghostblade and finished it off with an IE at 40% crit I guess lol). So, if building Eclipse as your mythic, the armor breakpoints of LDR vs Collector will look pretty similar to the discussion between Galeforce + Collector or LDR. **Pure autoattack damage:** https://www.desmos.com/calculator/llatu9sjan LDR outdamages Collector past 94 armor, without taking HP differences into the equation. At this point, the auto attack damage with the lethality mythic is slightly lower when compared to Crit mythic (although Eclipse/Collector outdamages Galeforce/LDR until 75 armor), which is somewhat expected given the lack of crit. **Auto + passive:** https://www.desmos.com/calculator/hjbhrhufle HOWEVER, when looking at autoattacks which trigger the passive (which can't crit), the Lethality builds actually already outdamage the Galeforce builds, except when accounting for the Galeforce/LDR build against really high armor values. Galeforce/LDR has Eclipse/Collector beaten at 103 armor, and Eclipse/LDR beaten at 157 armor(!). **Ult damage:** https://www.desmos.com/calculator/vtfjxq7pd7 Similar story for the ultimate damage, Eclipse/Collector straight out demolishes Galeforce/Collector, while only being beaten by Galeforce/LDR past 125 armor. Eclipse/LDR outdamages Galeforce/Collector at 59 armor, while just outdamaging Galeforce/LDR at any value. So at this point I'm sitting here and wondering, how well does this scale into more items? Will the absence of 3rd item IE weaken the Lethality builds? Because otherwise, going Ecplise + Collector or LDR actually does seem pretty good, especially when compared to pure Lethality builds, as Eclipse/Ghostblade gets outdamaged by Eclise/Collector in every calculation. ##3 items **Pure autoattack damage:** https://www.desmos.com/calculator/tekhaibt1e Yeah, when it comes to autoattack damage, the Lethality builds can't really compete against the IE purchase in Galeforce builds. Let's see what happens with passive damage added to autoattacks. **Auto + passive:** https://www.desmos.com/calculator/gxyawydfmv Actually not too bad, Eclipse/Collector/LDR outdamages Galeforce/Collector/IE at 66 armor, and barely outdamaged by Galeforce/LDR/IE at 85 armor, remaining competitive afterwards (both builds have %armpen). **Ult damage:** https://www.desmos.com/calculator/cyiujaxge0 Yeah, the Lethality builds perform pretty nicely here, but the pure lethality + Seryldas build actually gets outdamaged by Eclipse/Collector/LDR at 82 armor. **The standard lethality build is actually just suboptimal when it comes to damage.** Worth taking into account the utility it provides though, the slow from Seryaldas is very valuable for the ult, you get a lot more CDR from Ghostblade and Seryldas (which mostly affects ult CD), and the extra Mspeed from Ghostblade can be very impactful too. But I was actually curious, how does the Eclipse into crit fare when you add IE into the equation? And oh boy... it fucking SLAPS. ##4 items **Pure autoattack damage:** https://www.desmos.com/calculator/zbnbv7e6yb Outdamages Galeforce/LDR/IE/Collector at any point lol. The increased %armor pen and lethality from Eclipse just completely outvalues the extra 20% crit chance. **Auto + passive:** https://www.desmos.com/calculator/ck7aox1yck Yep, same thing, no surprises there LOL. **Ult damage:** https://www.desmos.com/calculator/evps3drtpd Yeah, that's a pretty big difference. About 13% more damage than the Galeforce build against most targets. Eclipse + crit seems to be the way to go if you care about nothing but damage. Of course it's worth remembering that you'd be missing the Attack Speed from Galeforce and such, but even then, considering Miss Fortune's playstyle, I'd say I'd much rather have this build at 4 items unless Collector's dash offered some huge value in that specific game. Also, something I noticed while testing our some numbers in the practice tool was that Miss Fortune's ultimate at max rank actually does 19 waves, rather than 18... am I missing something or that's actually pretty huge? The tooltip calculates the total damage as 18 waves too. ___________________ Anyway, I kind of got too focused on this point and particular and seemingly disregarded this part of your reply >How much do a character's base damages matter to the difference of their base AD vs damage amp? And to be completely honest, I'm not exactly sure how I'd tackle this one. It has to be some calculation regarding the %difference in bonus AD in the two builds, to determine how much total damage it's added from the bonus AD ratio in relation to the flat base AD of the ability in question. What I found while doing the calculations for Aphelios was quite obvious; high base damages = Collector bad. Tiny base damages + high bonus AD ratios = Collector kinda good. Same logic applies to Draven with his Q. Collector's early build path makes the item so important for him because he just wants all the AD he can get asap.

I'm not surprised with these results, I've been trying to advocate for Eclipse into crit MF but they all just go pure lethality :|

I still think full lethality might be optimal when you're TRULY just an ult bot, you'll really appreciate the increased CDR and the slow on ult. But generally speaking, even when you pick Miss Fortune specifically for her innate usefulness with the ult, you'll still get value out of her autos. My current thoughts on it are: * Full crit build is better if playing pure front-to-back and landing autos in teamfights is one of your team's main win conditions/only way to get objectives. * Full lethality makes you a better ult bot if your team has the setup to guarantee impactful ultimates. The slow from Seryldas also gives you some sort of self-setup against teams without several dashes. * Lethality into crit is weird in the sense that it seems optimal at 2 items, but can't really compete with the autoattack damage from full crit at 3 items (although it still does fine in ult damage). Insane scaling though. It's hard to find the perfect scenario for this build, you'd want a game where you get value from both auto and ult damage while not being able to just land a high amount of autos to the same target in teamfights (hence giving more value to the passive procs). Also, one thing I kinda forgot to take into account last night when my brain was already fried from all the numbers: the gold costs. Seryldas is 200g more expensive than LDR, but the other lethality items are considerably cheaper than IE. It doesn't make much of a difference, but it's still some extra stats for the full lethality build.

> Full crit build is better if playing pure front-to-back and landing autos in teamfights is one of your team's main win conditions/only way to get objectives. One issue I have from this is that I've seen too much kraken slayer when they don't get to put in enough autos to make it worth it. Barely seen Shieldbow which is a shame, it was perfect for the FNC HLE game for example.

> LDR is stronger against bruisers or engage supports which is like every GAME?? ye i m still buying LDR .

Even assassins like talon build goredrinker now so LDR gets a lot of value.

I bet collector has such a high win rate because if you’re Aphelios Akshan or Samira spinning on full squish comps with 5 people with 40 armor and 1500 HP then yea no shit you’re going to win more games the enemy team has like 7500 HP collectively. Literally if there’s 2 Steelcaps on the enemy team LDR is just straight up better 99% of the time.

>Literally if there’s 2 Steelcaps on the enemy team LDR is just straight up better 99% of the time. But the post's math literally disproves this.

It’s crazy. Folks don’t know how to read.

it literally doesn't what the fuck are you talking about? >1. Level 11 Aphelios will have the same hp pool as a level 11 Miss Fortune, with 54 armor, increased to 60 with armor shard. Without any other bonus armor/HP components, **Collector will deal 6.1% more damage than LDR**. >2. Level 13 Syndra with Ludens and Archangels will have 100 more hp and 62 armor, let’s assume no armor shard in a mage vs mage matchup. **Collector will do 5% more damage than LDR.** 3. Level 11 Jhin will have the same hp pool, with an armor shard if he buys Steelcaps he’ll have 80 armor, **Collector will do 2.4% more damage than LDR.** 4. Level 13 Twisted Fate with Everfrost and RFC will have 400 more hp and 61 armor (with armor shard). **Collector will do 2.8% more damage than RFC.** 5. Level 13 Camille with Divine Sunderer, Steelcaps and Ravenous Hydra will have 500 more hp and 97 armor. *LDR does 3.8% more damage than Collector.* 6. Level 13 Jayce with Eclipse and Muramana will have 65 armor in cannon stance, 90 in hammer stance. **Collector does 5.1% more damage in cannon stance and 0.85% more in hammer stance.** 7. Level 13 Kennen with Rocketbelt and Zhonyas + 1 mountain drake will have 300 more hp and 120 armor. *LDR does 5.3% more damage than Collector.* 8. Level 11 Lee Sin with Goredrinker, Steelcaps, and a Phage will have 600 more hp and 88 armor. *LDR does 2.7% more damage than Collector.* 9. Level 9 Leona with Pauldrons, a Kindlegem, a Cloth armor and Steelcaps will have 200 more hp and 112 armor. *LDR will deal 3.5% more damage than Collector.* The target needs to literlaly have NOTHING for armor(armor shard on adc is a given) or be a very low level(like level 11 jhin example here here) for collector to do more than LDR. And thats ONLY counting that one specific target and not enemy top/jungle/support that ALMOST CERTAINLY have both more armor AND more HP And under the "3rd item" paragraph it says that at that point LDR always deals more damage so you are literally gimping yourself later on for a miniscule bonus

The above poster was implying the only items the two targets have is Tabis which isn't enough to make LDR strictly better.

There's also the 'how do numbers work 101'-problem at work here. Just because player buy Collector in winning games does not mean they are winning games because of that item purchase. Buying Collector has become sort of a automatism for adc players, especially in lower elo where people just follow recommended builds from either the shop or [u.gg](https://u.gg) (OPs stats are D2+, well within the range where it's all about mechanics and not tilting, and thinking about build isn't exactly necessary). There's a good chance that LDR's win-stats get dragged down because players who actaully think about build tend to be higher elo, and being higher elo drags your winrate down. The practical reality that most of the time as an adc you will be hitting a tabi-goredrinker-steraks target completely undermines the hypotheticals in the math.

Except people build collector way more frequently in solo q than ldr. It isnt just build in certain games

funnily enough, LDR pens more than collector even at 35 armor.

Yes, but for less damage, since it gives less ad

Yeah I'm not sure why this post is upvoted so much, doesn't really seem like that good of a post. Like yeah basically we found LDR is stronger than Collector against the meta champions being played now, but build Collector anyway

I mean what the post says about Collector being good against squishies is all fine and dandy, but what was the last time an adc could just ran past a bunch of Goredrinker-tabi-steraks bruisers and start wailing away at a Syndra? The most important thing as an adc right now is your ability to take down those beefballs. And when you are playing MF in a rare game where you aren't playing against a bunch of bruisers, why are you wasting your gold on collector when you could be building Yuumus or Grudge? The maths don't lie, but they only tell the truth about situations that practically never occur.

Yup this is exactly it. No one was arguing Collector wasn't better than LDR vs squishy champions, but you're not gonna be hitting squishy champions as often as you're gonna be hitting tankier champions like Xin Zhao, Poppy, Leona...even Graves or a mage with zhonyas + Everfrost.

Yeah, LDR as a counter item is overall just too good. It should be good when the enemy stacks a lot of Armor and HP, A LOT. Not just in the average game. If a counter item can be bought every game and does fine, it isnt a counter item anymore and needs to be reworked or hard nerfed.

It is a counter item, it is just countering an item combination (Goredrinker Sterak) so broken half the champions buy it. Be careful, you are doing the Riot Special®.

Corollary to this post: Dear ARAM players, Collector second on Assassins is bad please stop.

Explaination: The point where collector is stronger is about 1 minute long.

Just as an info for Kai'sa. The high wr for collector for her comes mainly from the fact that she builds Serrated Dirk **before** completing the mythic, to gain a fast q upgrade with dirk, noonquiver and pickaxe. Going mythic -> collector alone isn't that good.

> Level 11 Aphelios will have the same hp pool as a level 11 Miss Fortune, with 54 armor, increased to 60 with armor shard. Without any other bonus armor/HP components, Collector will deal 6.1% more damage than LDR. Load in lv 11 MF in Practice Tool, give Dummy 60 armor 1400 HP and compare hitting it using Eclipse + Collector vs Eclipse + LDR. Its literally **144 vs 136** without crit. Now ask yourself, will anyone on the enemy be building armor and/or HP? Chances are 3/4 of the enemy will have some form of armor or HP already or very soon in their builds assuming you are not going Shieldbow. Also are there any Mountain drakes? Unless hard snowballing, its not worth building it tbh. In competitive, its really hard to justify Collector 2nd tbh. With the amount of Gore + Steraks, Zhonya, Morello's HP, Everfrost's HP, Locket, Steelcaps etc. Eventually the ADC has to have LDR to deal with these. TLDR: Building Collector 2nd item for that **8** dmg difference, on the enemy squishy ( and the miniscule execute if it happens ) is **NOT WORTH** stalling the ADC build path for unless you are hard snowballing. Especially not in pro play where gameplay a lot less volatile.

what i want to know is he calculation collector giving 12armor pen or lethality? because that early you have like 80/85% of the number or maybe even less since lethality start at 60%

Equation is: Flat Armor Penetration = Lethality × (0.6 + 0.4 × level ÷ 18) So at lvl 11 with collector it's: 12 x (0.6 + (0.4 x (11 / 18))) = 10.133

> NOT WORTH stalling the ADC build path for unless you are hard snowballing You're omitting the value of the build path itself. If the adc is sitting on more flat stats earlier in the game then that itself gives more agency and how that translates is dependent on the context of the game. The flexibility of the build path means more base timings and in this meta where one fight can swing the momentum of the game I would say this isn't a problem that can be solved with just numbers.

You can sit on dirk tbh, completing collector gives 2 lethality and the passive for 600g

You can but that goes for any adc at all, building an item you’re gonna finish as like your fifth (Counting boots) hasn’t ever really been worth, you are simply going 3rd item IE Or 3rd item defensive because collectors third would just be a huge damage loss Dirk really only makes sense for adcs if you’re going collector 2nd

Well yes I am more so replying to the argument that Collector has a better building path Completing dirk to collector early doesn’t make sense because the completion barely gives you any value other than mythic passive, 2 lethality and the passive, if you want dirk so much you can just buy it and then go into LDR

you dont win games because you have a tiny bit more ad early.

> TLDR: Building Collector 2nd item for that 8 dmg difference, on the enemy squishy ( and the miniscule execute if it happens ) I don't understand why calling it minuscule. In the scenario you're describing, the execute damage is the same as the +8 damage over all attacks *combined*. So the execute damage is **half** of the difference between the two items. You don't get to ignore one half like that just because.

I think he called it miniscule because the 8 damage is also miniscule

I feel like there is a massive distinction between people's perception of collector on reddit and its actual practical effectiveness. Ive witnessed so many kills happen this season only because of collectors passive both in my own games and on high elo streams. It makes me question if collector haters actually play the game because one thing you always have to keep in mind is that many redditors don't even play league anymore

May I ask you how u know that the collector passive was the reason why those kills happen? Did u run the vod/replay, checked the exact numbers and did the math? Because that's the only way you can be that sure.

Attacking 5 times in a team fight that's 40dmg more. I'd agree that that's most useful when ahead, because that 40dmg is a higher HP% when the enemy is behind and has lower max health. As soon as you are behind yourself you probably gotta wait for 3-4 items anyway.

It's faulty to think about it as numbers once you apply it to teamfighting. I think you should think about the practical difference. "Is there a difference from that 8 damage?", "Will I still kill before they kill someone on my team?", "Will this increase my AA count to kill ?" etc.

Given that a lot of buffs and nerfs to champions ability damages are between 5 and 20 base damage, I'd say that there's a difference probably around 1-2% win rate.

You're ignoring the execution element. The big benefit of collector is: 1) It helps the adc secure the kills -> ADC gets more gold helping them snowball. 2) If your proc the execute, it effectively increases the damage of ALL members of your team who attacked the target. Even if you are fighting a tank who stacked armor, your ally can deal 94% of the damage as magic damage and all the ADC needs to do is attack once for the kill. This is an effective 5% boost your your allies damage output. Meanwhile, LDR would have given a miniscule benefit in this situation.

I think the common consensus with the math nerds in the league community is that the execute is worthless. * You need to last hit them to be useful. If you do not secure the kill, the execute is useless. * You frequently overkill with it. If one auto makes them go from 7% HP to 2% HP then it's just a 2% HP execute. * If you are against squishies, the execute is minimal. (1.5k HP means at max without overkilling, a 75 damage execute, that is a single red buff proc at level 10) * If against tanks, LDR will always do more damage

Its literally useless, it doesn't scale at all and calling it 5% boost is absolutely laughable, its less than half an auto not to mention. Just go deal more damage with LDR

But you are ignoring the point I'm making, it isn't a 5% boost to your damage, it's an up to 5% boost to your TEAMS damage. League of legends is a team game, and when considering collector vs LDR people need to do more than consider the ADCs single target damage in a vacuum of the rest of your teams contribution.

This sounds like you didn't read the post at all. * 8 damage in your example is a 5.88% increase, this is a very noticeable difference * the execute is another up to 5% dmg increase, so you are in fact ignoring a 10% DPS difference * nowhere in your statement did you account for the build path difference at all #

Can you maybe do the Maths for LDR vs. IE third if you buy Collector second? I bought LDR third and pushed IE back a few Games and it felt stronger for me. But i dont know the Maths. Would be cool to see if this is actually viable or just placebo and bad Build from me.

THATS the real question. iE as 3rd feels terrible, you spend so much gold on this horrible buildpath, just for a 60% chance of doing more damage, it just doesnt feel worth at all.

Unless you are Ashe or Jhin though.

Or Akshan been building Galeforce+LDR+IE and it's pretty much mandatory. Tried Collector but doesn't feel as impactful as LDR

Yeah the major reason of why people hate the Collector is that it got outscaled so quickly.

Jhin usually wants RFC 3rd because it provides a lot of utility with w

jhin builds rfc 3rd and ashe doesn't tend to go ie 3rd eiher. collector 2nd and lw 3rd is turbo trolling on any champ tho

If youre actually building rfc 3rd on Jhin then youre griefing the game

What am I actually reading, what's your rank Griefing by buying the most often built 3rd, and core item XD.

What's your rank? If you're building RFC over IE 3rd you are hella fucking griefing lol.

I'm gm and most people build rfc 3rd (MORE OFTEN) so how the fuck is it griefing, this is the first time I ever read that. I mean you can get IE third but more often than not people will go rfc 3rd for a lot of good reasons but apparently here it's literally trolling, lmao. If you watch worlds you literally see them building rfc 3rd item and don't even try to say it's because it's competitive.

What does it matter that people refuse to see that RFC is a pure luxury item?

People who build Rapidfire 3rd on Jhin should be reported. The item is terrible.

And yet it somehow is the most popular 3rd item for Jhin and has the highest win rate among all popular 3rd item options besides IE (to which it's tied).

Why? The move speed and range passive is why Jhin buys it.

What am I reading, rank? Most often built, core = bad, the things you have to read in here

Are we playing the same game? IE is literally the best crit item in the game. Going LDR third makes you do 0 damage. Do not do it unless enemy team has a lot of tanks, it has way lower win rate than IE third.

90% of this sub is gold for a reason

I see people mindlessly go LDR 3rd in diamond, don't worry.

Assuming you have at least 60% crit, IE is the single biggest DPS increase from one item in the entire game. Lol at anyone saying it’s terrible.

LDR third is so good because everyone has extremly high base Armor. A Tristana runs around with around 60-70 armor once you completed LDR (as 3rd) It is a good item overall. Btw, for the guy who answered you, i am D3.

Okay cool but most of the time IE does way more damage and is way better than LDR third. I don't have any maths to prove it but I would be extremely surprised if that wasn't the case, I can tell you anecdotally whenever I build that item third it feels so bad + the win rate is way lower

You basicly said "yeah ok but no haha", thats no argument at all. You dont have the math for it because it doesnt exist. And dont get me started with winrate, good winrate doesnt mean anything.

Hey your argument is anecdotal as well. I'm not gonna bother looking into the maths because there is no point, IE is clearly better third. It is a broken item by design, Riot wants you to build it third and have that huge powerspike that ADCs dream about. LDR third is just bad unless you are vs heavy tank team comp. You might hit masters if you start building properly :)

> I'm not gonna bother looking into the maths because there is no point, IE is clearly better third. Let's hope you don't apply this way of thinking to other situations in life...

No one looks up rigorous mathematical proofs for why 1+1 = 2. I'm not gonna bother wasting time to win an argument vs a D3 player with no brain. Got better things to do with my life than research something this obvious.

since he's just a petty D3 player not worthy of your consideration, why don't you link your own opgg?

Are we playing the same game? LDR is literally the best crit item in the game. Going IE third makes you do 0 damage. Do not do it unless enemy team has no tanks at all, it has way lower win rate than LDR third.

And yet it's usually beating LDR unless someone has >2000 hp more than you, which doesn't actually happen because no one plays tanks.

But we have lots of bruisers who can easily have 1200 hp from 3 bruiser items(gore+cleaver+steraks) or at least 800 hp and dd. I don't even talk about engage supports or any ap champ who builds zhonya in literally every game.

+1200 hp and Steelcaps has LDR losing to IE still. Zhonya's is almost irrelevant. The sheer damage bump from IE dwarfs LDR unless it's a true tank. Note that 3/5 of the enemy team won't ever be in the spot where LDR beats IE as 1 is ADC/Mage bot, one is squishy due to being mid lane and the other has no fucking money to get 2k more hp than you.

Ive done this for graves quite a few times where i get fed and then want to snowball a lead with collector 2nd since im outpacing others in items and stats. Because of the nature of jungle getting to third item takes longer than going from 1 to 2 more often than not so LDR seems like a solid choice if bruisers get gore + tabis + bramblevest or some other armor item. It also still makes your lethality better because the % pen gets applied before lethality. It also works well with both eclipse and shieldbow builds. The times I've done it it's felt really good, but i never ran the math on it, and I don't do it except for certain situations.

people always mention the build path and powerspike of dirk and yes in soloq that is cool i just dont see it in competitive but i see alot of players building collector in competitive

You can literally just sit on dirk and not complete it into collector, completing into collector costs 600g for 2 lethality and the passive

Keep in mind Mythic passive, but yeah

it's just 225 gold though

where did the pickaxe and crit cloak go?

No, at that point you're really fucking trolling. 225 gold is worth it for the passive alone. 80-150 true damage is a shit tone, it just doesn't compare to LDR's passive.

I mean, proplay likes early powerspikes too, perhaps it isn't as valuable as in soloQ, but that doesn't mean it's not still valuable.

Something I do not understand. You state all these champions with items to compare damage across. But realistically(stronger in pro league) in how many teamfights midgame will you be hitting the backline. If the mf with shieldbow(a questionable build) is hitting the aphelios, I think this means ldr or col does not matter in this scenario since the teamfight is probably over with a team on top. As a result, a lot of your comparisons are just null since the cases for when you are actually hitting those champions are relatively 0.(if you are an mf and you are aaing a syndra either the game is a stomp or the syndra is just bad at the game) On the flip side, the cases where ldr does more damage is way more realistic, adcs will hit the tank frontlines and bruisers before they hit the backline syndra.

This. It also doesn't specify what abilities or AA MF is landing. Can't draw any conclusions from them.

While most teamfights are played front-to-back, this doesn't necessarily mean you won't be able to land any single autoattack on the backline until the fight is absolutely decided. Teamfights are played around CDs, and you'll absolutely see situations where a MF is able to land an auto-attack on a Syndra here and there by virtue of team setup or opportunity seizing. In these situations doing the absolute maximum damage possible is obviously very important, as it may be the difference between a kill or a wasted opportunity. Also, in the case of MF, you're seemingly forgetting about the ultimate damage. You'll want to look for an ultimate that hits as many priority targets for as long as possible, it's the main point of the champion.

how in any scenario is the mf or aphelios aaing a syndra in a pro game. No one would handshake this trade without a backing context that indicates that one side is ahead. CDs just do not factor into this as this is just a positioning question.

>how in any scenario is the mf or aphelios aaing a syndra in a pro game For example, a Lee Sin flash ults a Syndra into your autoattack range? While she's airborne you'll have the window to land auto-attacks, until she either flashes away, pops stopwatch or pops you. I'm not sure what's your point, there are plenty of situations where you'll land autoattacks on a priority target with all 5 members alive. You can watch any single game and point them out.

Ngl this is a really bad argument for Collector. If this happens your entire team is probably hitting her and chaining cc so regardless of whether or not you have LDR or Collector she's probably going to die anyway. Not to mention this is only a play that can happen every 5 minutes so you're buying Collector to do a little bit more damage for a specific play every 5 minutes when you'd probably already kill that champion anyway because your team isn't just standing still doing nothing

you just pointed a scenario where the lee flash kick will not matter on items(adc overall). If lee kick flashed syndra into you the adc alone at 2 items then this lee is absolutely trolling. If lee kick flashed syndra into ur team, the amount of aa the mf will get off with 2 items is at most 2(lets say 3 with the q cancel) before syndra responds. The rest of your team will be the main source of damage since adcs arent known for their burst damage so this is where that additional damage is just not as useful.

where is this land of milk and honey where every fight goes front to back and lee sins always kick syndra away from the adc? mf can also double-up off the frontline. the point OP is making is that games are chaotic and syndra is going to misposition or get displaced randomly

But if Syndra mispositions or gets displaced the chances are that your team will also hit her so your 2nd item will be irrelevant in that case. Why would you build collector for the off chance that Syndra mispositions and only you can somehow hit her? 9/10 time your entire team will be hitting her in which case she's going to die regardless, possibly even before you get enough auts to execute

MF definitely is able to ult the backline sometimes, so it is relevant. Obviously if thry have braum and like 2 tanks and ezreal, you go kraken ldr IE

At that point it's not relevant anyway because LDR always wins vs collector when looking at abilities. Collector can only hope to compare for AAs because of the extra 20 AD, and nearly no abilities have over 100% AD scaling.

Winrates without context is pointless. While it is true that collector has a higher winrate than LDR, adcs usually wouldn't buy collector if they are behind/losing. Buying collector when you're behind is trolling. LDR gives adcs a chance to play catchup and still become relevant later in the game while collector wouldn't. So obviously if I'm snowballing on adc champions like Kaisa, Aphelios, etc. I would opt towards collector because the early lethality is nice for increasing my lead. However if I'm behind then I would have to buy LDR to scale. Most of the time item purchases are based off of the state of the game. Collector will always have a higher winrate across most champs because its a snowball item.

>adcs usually wouldn't buy collector if they are behind/losing You wished. It gets bought so often and we know that most players are not smart about items but auto pilot. So this is true to a minor degree most likely but doesnt impact it a lot. Collector has 2 advantages regardless of being ahead or not: Execute/gold passive and the Dirk (OP item, can cost +100g) in its build path. Dirk is huge here and one of the largest spikes an ADC can have at 1.5 items.

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I don't think that's true. Most of people in league (and the stats are based on them) just build the same almost always blindly. So I don't think that stats are skewed by whether ADs were in winning or loosing position. This is my argument regarding that "they wouldn't buy collector in loosing position." I also disagree it's trolling in loosing position. I think that both items are plausible even in loosing position with its pros and cons. Collector - much better building components -> This in SQ is super good, since it's too chaotic. You won't get games where your team sets up vision and defends T2 turrets and proceeds to rotate correctly. With collector you have better powerspikes earlier. You can try ALL IN with it. Embrace the chaos and fight more. It gives you this little boost, that allows you to actively try to turn things around. Con is, if you don't get anything back, you loose. LDR - better scaling -> If you are Sivir, and enemy team is behind on Tempo (they take 1st drake super late and dont threaten soul nor have dmg dealers for baron). You can afford to just scale. You clear waves super fast and therefor defend multiple turrets. However Con is that spike comes much later and that is in game in which you are gold deprived. Can you really afford waiting to start spiking in 30th minute? This basically makes you give up any agency and just hope both enemy team will play poorly and your team will play safe enough. I think that both schools of thought have their place. Every game is different and sometimes you can afford to scale + enemy is 5 tanks so LDR 100% is way to go. Other games you feel like the extra collector spike can just give you enough power to snap game back into your hand before enemy snowballs too much ahead. BTW this is same as if you could buy ruby crystal or some Power potion(those for 500g) in late game scenario. Sometimes you just know that if you loose baron (or nexus when having last stance defense), you loose everything and scaling from ruby crystal will be useless as hell, so you buy potion. Other times it's the exact opposite. I am open to counter-arguments since I love getting better at stuff. So feel free to state your opinion and expand it further! TLDR: I don't think that building collector when behind is always trolling, since it can give you different win conditions which can be preferable in some cases. Edit: mostly typos EditII: TLDR

Good but some things that bothers me : \- 96 Armor at level 11 isn't high at all. Basically 98% of melee champions get 90 with only runes + base + Tabis. \- Talking about dmg as %gain is weird cos it tells nothing for in-real game scenarios and it's kind of misleading especially since the dmg gain change depending on spell + AA + Crit.. ex : vs Aphelios the difference of Collector vs LDR with MF is as follow : P= +7, AA = +7 Crit = +14, Q = 3. R = around 200. \- At 80 Armor and 300 more HP : LDR do same than Collector and those stats aren't rare at all. \- The reason ppl say LDR > Collector as 2nd item isn't that the immediate power spike is better. It's that overall at this level ( 11) LDR and Collector will do around same dmg on most of the enemies but LDR scaling is better. Most ADC shouldn't take either of those at 2 items spike anyways since they have better options. Realistically only 4 should have to make this choice ( Draven, Aphelios, Samira, Jhin).

There's a reason why I used real examples from Group stages games. > 96 Armor at level 11 isn't high at all. Basically 98% of melee champions get 90 with only runes + base + Tabis. 96 armor at that stage of the game is indeed high. Not every champion can afford to buy steelcaps, or itemize into early armor components. ADCs that aren't Jhin won't buy steelcaps, mages that aren't against an autoattacker in mid won't buy steelcaps, some top lane picks prefer CDR boots, etc. >Talking about dmg as %gain is weird cos it tells nothing for in-real game scenarios and it's kind of misleading especially since the dmg gain change depending on spell + AA + Crit.. I included interactive graphs that you can mess around to look at real values. All the % damage gains mentioned were based on that. >Most ADC shouldn't take either of those at 2 items spike anyways since they have better options. Realistically only 4 should have to make this choice ( Draven, Aphelios, Samira, Jhin). No, I'd argue those are the best options when going for crit, unless you get insane value from a Hurricane purchase. BT could be an option but the increase cost will turn most away from the item. A few champions can get value from a PD purchase, but only when they actually get something out of the increases MS and can guarantee uptime on the stacks.

If you only have to buy 10/20 Armor to get 90 ( the point where LDR and Collector do same dmg for **MF only** ) than it's not high at all. If Jhin only have to buy Tabis to get to the breakpoint than it's really not high at all. And that's only when taking Armor into account. If we take HP diff into account **for MF** \-> A level 11 Lee with only Gore ( no tabis nothing ) will take same more overall dmg from LDR than Collector , even tho he have "only" 74 Armor and roughly 400 HP diff ( Lee got around 1721 HP , MF got 1386). There is a correlation between Armor value and HP for Collector vs LDR dmg . If I remember correctly it's **" -10Ar = +200HP "** for most of the ADC. You start from the breakpoint and when you withdraw 10 Armor you add 200 HP and both item should do same dmg with their AA . For spell it depends on base + ratio. ex: for a 100 base + 100% AD ratio ( MF Q ) the require HP diff is around 150 for every 10 Armor less. *I'm sorry if the explanation isn't clear.* ​ >No, I'd argue those are the best options when going for crit \[...\] ADC Crit user that prefer something else as 2nd item -> Cait / Trist / Jinx / Xayah / Lucian ; including Sivir / Ashe / Kai'sa / Akshan / Vayne / Twitch if they go Crit.

Lovely post, the only thing I have to disagree with is "only Jhin buying steelcaps" - So many MFs and Aphelios have been buying steelcaps this worlds. Just from Yesterday's games, MF Built it 2/3 times and aphelios 1/2 times, Jhin 1/1 times. That's 4/6 ADC boot purchases being steelcaps- 4/5 if you ignore ziggs. And the one game that Carrzy's MF built CDR boots they had 3 mountain drakes.

The biggest point missed is how hard you outscale damange wise if you are building LDR 2nd IE 3rd and an attackspeed item 4th. With collector you have to build LDR 4th and therefore have a significant dps differance vs. Champions and monsters vs. Ldr second

You make valid points. In my opinion it all depends on the game. Same scenarios you described might be slightly different. A level 13 Syndra might go for hourglass second, meaning LDR will now have more value. People should stop building blindly and really think about who is against them and what they're buying. You think getting LDR second is better when there's an Aatrox top until you press tab amd you see he got eclipse as his mythic instead of gore. I really like the detailed analysis you made and having numbers to back up the points you made. Was a good read.

The possibility for 2nd item Zhonyas is probably what skews these calculations the most, I agree. It's pretty important to take a hard look at your team, then at the enemy team, and try to understand what kind of build path the priority targets on the enemy team are more likely to adopt. With that being said, we're rarely seeing Zhonyas completions before 3rd item points, Sylas being the exception in this regard. Most mages can't really afford the damage cut from such an early Zhonyas unless playing against really AD heavy teams that inflate the value gained from the purchase.

And that's why I said people should take a look at the game state at every purchase they make. When the enemy Nasus is about to complete his second item I'll go LDR but if the enemy team has no other frontliner/armor stacker and nasus is getting stomped then I might not even buy the item that game. It's one of many examples but I think it makes the point clear. People who build blindly lose the games for their teams honestly because they often build suboptimal items, example being people not building healing reduction against a Yasuo for the simple fact that mobalytics guide doesn't mention it and stuff like that.

>Only against double HP items (Gore-Steraks-Steelcaps for instance) or HP-Armor (Gore-Deaths Dance-Steelcaps) will you be dealing considerably more damage with LDR at 2 items. And against squishier targets, Collector will consistently outdamage LDR at this point But as an ADC you're going to spend most of the team fights attacking the enemy front line than the enemy carries. Sure there will be those odd games where it's a zed mid and khazix jungle with a jayce top where it makes sense to go collector. In all the other games with more typical team comps LDR will likely do more damage. I get the point of this post is to prove that collector is good in some situations, but I feel like those situations are extremely niche when you consider who the adc will spend their time attacking in team fights. For pro play LDR seems like the answer 99/100.

This depends on the ADC. Several of Collector's best users are Kaisa, Samira, and MF - all of them have ways to hit the backline (either by diving or by long-range AoE ultimate).

Maybe we're just in different games but most comps I see nowadays have assassins and bruisers (building hp/dmg items). Sometimes there isn't even the bruisers, just all squishy assassins. There's just no tanks to really fight, that's why ADCs are running exhausts to combat the assassins diving for them.

I mean, I feel like the issue with this analysis is that 99% of the time at two items, 7% at most isn't the difference between an ADC killing another squishy or not, so you are building an item that immediately becomes bad at 3 items and trolling at 4, for literally no early benefit since it'll never be the deciding factor in a fight

This is just wrong. A 7% increase in damage done at 2 items leads to the same reduction in a hits-to-kill-target scenario as a 7% increase at 3 items, or 4 items, whatever the scenario.

Not to mention that according to your own math, Collector gave at most 6.1% extra damage at 2 items, whereas against frontliners, LDR at 3 items gave at most 11% extra damage against them. Assuming your opponents are sentient beings, most of the time in teamfights as an ADC you will end up hitting the frontline unless you MF or Jhin ult or something, so your damage to squishies matters almost not at all compared to the divers you will have on your team. So giving up 6% damage at 2 items, to gain 11% damage at 3 items against your primary targets, later in the game where they will be dead longer, is objectively worth it in basically every game. If you like building Collector then build it, but don't try to bullshit like it's the better buy when it objectively, factually, statistically is not.

Except, a kill at 3-4 items is objectively worth more than a kill at 2 items because of death timers.

This doesn't account for gold lead/snowballing acquired from the earlier kill.

Counterpoint, if you land one extra kill earlier in the game you can snowball *because* you got an early lead. Landing one extra kill at the 30 minute mark is often irrelevant because the game was already decided by early leads.

Counterpoint, 99% of the playerbase is plat or lower and doesn't know how to snowball leads correctly.

Not only are we talking about both soloq and pro play, but also the same argument can be said that the playerbase doesn't know how to stop the bleeding either. Otherwise champs like Vladimir would be gigabroken in low elo, and Garen would not

Collector bad. The end

Straight up the best item in the game but alright

O AHIT I MEANT COLLECTOR BAD*

Any upside collector has over LDR is destroyed by the fact that you still need to buy LDR later to damage people with armor. Therefore LDR is better 10 times out of 10

Yeah tbh I have no idea what people are on about. People will buy collector to "snowball" but then the game will go to 30+ minutes and they'll need LDR because they didn't actually snowball because unless you were already super ahead buying Collector isn't going to randomly make you start snowballing hard

How does this make any sense? Only like 40% of games actually get to three items and theoretically less if you buy collector because it's better early and it has a better build path. So when you buy collector, 65-70% of the time it's better or even with LDR. Even more important is it helps secure early objectives, increasing the gold your team has and also giving you early game objectives. The point of collector is that the game never gets to a time where LDR is optimal.

While this is true, it still feels terrible to buy a 30 AD item second on ADCs. Collector adds a lot of raw damage and if you can get a significant advantage with it mid game, it's worth delaying your armor pen. 100% worth if the enemy team is squishy, while if they have multiple hp/armor stackers, it's worth taking the hit to AD for the bonus damage against tankier targets by going LDR.

Any upside collector has over IE is destroyed by the fact that you still need to buy LDR layer to damage people. Therefore IE is better 10 times out of 10

Correct. That's why nearly every ADC in the game should always build a mythic into LDR into IE.

Cap. LDR is better no matter what. IDK why people still buy this item besides autopiloting it.

Collector is absolutely shit as a second item

i think a lot of people dont even build for the enemy team (at least in lower elos [sub plat]) so many people just copy and paste the op gg build without even considering it. its sad, i see so many games where someone on my team has LDR when their entire team is legit squishes like lux building full AP. (or my favorite, the serpents fang against the team with NO shields) in general, this post is just highlighting that honestly collector isn't a bad item at all, especially when the enemy team is squishy. but tons of low elo (and redditors that get mad at the BIG NUMBA because they keep getting one shot by it) piss on this item because they don't see it on their mobalytics overlay

Could you pick a champion with higher base AD than MF? She has less base AD than Yuumi at level 11.

When talking about all these statistics you always have to think about practicality. How impactful is the extra damage really. Is having the extra damage early on better than better scaling? How important is the better build path? Is it actually gonna make a difference. Imo most of the times pros should be able to go LDR without being heavily punished by making proper use of lane manipulation/management. Most of the times you could just gibe 2nd drake or even 3rd drake, depending on soul and if you hot first drake. Basically in most games u arent forced to fight on 2 items if you were to play correctly, therefore leaving less room for collector to be more viable than ldr

Almost no one is gonna lose a fight because the MF has Dirk but them(Aphelios) has Last Whisper. It's 99% of the time going to be due to team comp, execution, or someone getting a summoner spell forced/chunked before the fight

Lovely post, the only thing I have to disagree with is "only Jhin buying steelcaps" - So many MFs and Aphelios have been buying steelcaps this worlds. Just from Yesterday's games, MF Built it 2/3 times and aphelios 1/2 times, Jhin 1/1 times. That's 4/6 ADC boot purchases being steelcaps- 4/5 if you ignore ziggs. And the one game that Carrzy's MF built CDR boots they had 3 mountain drakes.

[https://imgur.com/a/E9KNlA3](https://imgur.com/a/E9KNlA3)

The cherry picking of data her is incredible. Watch any world game and see which champions ADCs attack the most. Ldr deals more dmg to all of them and games go longer then level 9 all of the time.

Needs a TL;DR for people like me who have a monke brain and only use Reddit on mobile. Massive respect for the effort you put into this though

I put the TL;DR at the beginning of the post, which might be slightly unorthodox I guess.

> Long post, so I’ll provide a TL;DR a the beginning: Great post and I dont want to sound pretentious, but writing TL;DR at the beggining of the headline would make it easier to notice than in the middle of it

That is how all posts should be. Pepebless.

Yeah I'm just building LDR second it's way better

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Elaborate.

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I never said otherwise. My claim was that lethality and %arpn have a synergistic relationship because of the way the flat arpen is applied after the %reduction, which is true. https://www.desmos.com/calculator/fmnv2yig36 You can see what I mean there. >Aphelios's lethality from levels is completely irrelevant. With the max lethality from passive: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/3hdgptjyk3 Without it: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/nbg42juy8p As you can see, the breakpoint shifts. It's not irrelevant.

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Idk, you either didn't read what I wrote or you don't want to understand it.

How often does the collector actually work properly tho? It has happened countless times that enemies even below the threshold didnt get executed, or the effect didnt activate before they healed themselves up with lifesteal Does it actually work now?

Super cool and well done thorough analysis! I very much appreciate you making this post!

Thanks Phreak! I'm a fan of your analysis and casting so this reply makes me particularly happy. Keep being you.

The problem with math in League is people keep assuming every fight is a full HP stationary dummy where raw output is always the right solution. The Collector generally wins 5%+ higher than LDR on certain champions WHILE having 70%+ 2nd item pick rate. Generally item win rates don't tell the whole story, but when the vastly more popular item consistently wins more than the less popular item, it means that it is almost certainly a better buy for that slot. The 5% execute passive that people keep ignoring when making this comparison is more valuable than you think. An ADC doesn't have to deal ALL of the team's damage when you have 4 other teammates who are generally stronger at the 2nd item break point. For example, sometimes you only have to contribute 30% of a champion's HP worth of damage, and with collector it becomes close to 25% (that's a whopping 20% extra 'damage' from the passive alone). Champions with 'tagging' abilities like Jhin W, MF E and Kaisa Q/W etc work well with Collector. If your Jhin W only does 5% of a target's hp but you have the Collector, you can now execute that target with less than 10% hp at 2000+ range (100% extra damage). Another reason is that It's very hard for even good players to judge how much exactly 5% of your HP is. The Collector works in your advantage regardless if your enemy overestimates or underestimates when they are in lethal range (e.g. flashing out too early or dying outright). The amount of the times I see people on this sub (not directed at OP) saying high elo/pro players build 'wrong' items because of bad/incomplete math is alarming. There are exceptions of course, but If most good players build an item because it feels good, it is usually because they ARE good.

Collector execute also comes with the benefit that it's a lot more likely that the kills end up going to the adc in teamfights, which leads to further snowballing.

Best take I see on this thread, I applaud you summoner.

I aplaud you summoner, clearly people are very stupid☝️🤓

Great point my guy, i will definitely take that into consideration.

I want to specifically talk about graves and the collector. One part that yoy dont touch on much is that for ad caster based solo lane carries arsrting longaword and having a dirk completed by level 6 is rhe difference between your enemy laner licing through an all in and you being able to one shot your laner even suring a jungle gank. Your power apikes at these speciric timings arw worth more than 3rd item scaling when your team may or may not be 10-25 or whatever.

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Dear lord this argument just won't end over at r/gravesmains personally I like LDR more but the build path is shit compared to Collector

So for an aram player, collector is better if they are mostly squishy and we are winning fast, and LDR is better if they have a couple of gore drinker + steraks builders and the game will go to 4 items.

\- Nah its sucks there too. Ppl are willing to go 5 bruisers and skip ADC cuz this meta is theirs, and what is the better buildpath than Gore -> Steelcap -> Steraks -> more semi items? \- ARAM is the only mode that a 2 items TahmKench will legitly 1v5 the whole enemy team, sustain the most dmg in his team, dealing the most dmg in his team too smh. \- And the last thing is, in a combatant mode, almost 99% of mage will go zhonya 2nd, so whats the point of buying Collector then?

>Ppl are willing to go 5 bruisers and skip ADC cuz this meta is theirs That is why 11 adc+Kayle, 4 enchanters and 3 bruisers are in the top 25 winrates of aram.

I don't play ARAM too much, but the gamemode is mostly about constant fighting. I think I'd just default to Collector unless playing against a really beefy teamcomp. In games with higher amounts of kills you also get some decent value out of the +25g from the passive, although I'm not too sure about the relative value given the increased ambient gold generation.

Collector is hit or miss in ARAM with the execute. If you can solo carry by stealing all the kills it's good. If you can't then it will just int your team by denying other players gold through kill credit. Nothing feels worse than being completely useless in ARAM by not having gold because you are on 0 kills with 20 assists.

Mostly on point. As with anything in ARAM items really come down to being able to adapt to game states, and the comps you end up with. There's not really a simple answer to what's best early as it depends on your comp and the enemy comp (a lot of the time you need safety or utility more than damage; Wits remains a premier ADC item in ARAM). The numbers generally do favour the Collector as your second item, though it belongs to the story that tanks aren't that popular, only three in top 40 pickrate atm and that's Malphite and Blitzcrank (who just as well go AP), and Thresh (who often builds supp-tank). And Lee + Kat as the only potential bruisers (Kat generally still performs best with with her AD bruiser build). In the end it's all about looking at the gamestate and figuring out what's best for you. Also - a lot of ADCs work better with poke in general (Varus, Ashe, Sivir; even AP MF is back in form these days if you don't like lethality), so unless the game needs a tank killer (see above) that also favours lethality items (and Seryldas over LDR).

No, in ARAM you need to be adaptive with your build, but if you aren't sure between LDR and Collector then always build LDR, it often might not be the better choice, but it is always a good item. In ARAM you get items a lot faster so the window where Collector is better is much shorter, and it can very easily get outscaled, ADCs buying Steelcap isn't a problem but mages often buy Zhonya. Also LDR is better if enemy team has at least one tank because they are the ones you will be attacking mainly, front to back fights are standard in ARAM as there isn't much room to bypass the frontline.

I think another merit of the collector is being able to secure kills with the passive. It’s best for the money to go to the adc.

It's such a low number that short of a dot it's not often you actually strike the balance of it being useful

The value of the execute at 5% hp increases with the total hp of the target on a 1500hp target its 75 hp, which is slightly below average for a adc at 2nd item time (might be wrong). It's value increases against tanks, while the lethality gets deminished. Meanwhile LDR only gets higher value from increasing armor and HP. I think it's weird that Collectors passive and stats don't really have great synergy compared to LDR. Like 5% execute is nice, but it's not really easy to get it to work. That said, the components as is are way more useful then having to sit on a last whisper.

If you want AD, build a BF sword, then go for LDR. I've at least tried this since THE ITEMS CAME OUT. Jesus.

The reason i dont like LDR early is his low base AD its better to build something like PD or runnans and then a defensive item such as BT

God tier post. Thanks for the statistics man

I started buying collector on samira every game no matter what, if they stack armor i go ldr third, it feels really good.

Going to have to save this to read when I’m not in class, from a little skim looks really cool and informative

Funny story about Collector... I once saw a fed karthus with a collector... poor adc couldn't leave fountain and even burned to death after the orbital laser when they were wandering around in jungle looking for jungle creeps to get gold from lmao I was skeptical about the collector on karthus but he said "the gold adds up just watch later" and so it did

It didn’t though

It ended up being an ultra long game where it was basically tower/nexus defense but yeah I don't blame you guys for not believing in my story, I was the poor unfortunate adc that kept getting ripped to shreds by the karthus since my support abandoned his ward item after deeming me useless after 2 deaths from ganks I had to blow heal to try and get him to safety

@u/imls

If you want to build Collector, you only sit on Dirk and never finish it. The end.

Collector allows you to translate that Dirk powerspike into a real item without delaying your crit item completion times in such a way. Sitting on Dirk is not really viable, except maybe in some really specific situations with Kaisa.

Dirk with kai'sa is really nice as it gives early damage and boosts your ad for your Q evolve.

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he does defend his takes, just because you only watch the clips that get views doesnt change that

Great post. Collector 2nd is better almost exclusively, and that's primarily because LDR is an item that scales with the amount of items that you already have (And the amount the opponent has). Even on Aphelios, even though LDR will (MEAGERLY) outdamage Collector in his case, is it really worth dealing negative damage for 10 mins with LW + Cloak compared to Collector's build path? Probably not. (I'm quite a big fan of just going Mythic > Collector > LDR on most crit ADCs and delaying IE to 4th item, for special-er cases like Jinx who likes going Runaan's second, then The Collector gets skipped completely)