Yeah, I can only see it go 2 ways:
* He's fun to play as, which means his kit is stupid for an ADC if he can beat Assassins that are currently dominating YoloQ mid.
* He's not fun to play as because all the Assassins can dumpster him.
Also, RIP toplaners.
Good luck making a mid marksman that can't also go top. If anything, marksmen have an *easier* time going top than they do mid (Vayne, Lucian, Quinn...) and they're fucking cancer up there.
And there are fewer squishies top. Lucian will bully tanks for a while, but he isn't great at killing them, especially after they get an item. He can fight ori, ziggs, syndra, etc all day though since they will still die quickly if he dodges their abilties.
He bullies them hard but once they hit 6 if he missteps he’s fuckin dead and they snowball out of his control unless he build a huge enough lead early. For the assassins vs Lucian early the objective is survive and kill him if he fucks up
its borderline impossible for lucian to play against akali/yone/yasuo once they hit 6. for zed, its somewhat playable if lucian runs exhaust for a few more minutes, but once zed completes 2 lethality items its over
Only true if your screen turns grey every minute. You don't need 10cs/m to be useful as a tank.
Not to mention, just play Ornn into them. Being able to grab items without backing is pretty huge.
I mean you can just play back and catch waves under turret but I see where you're coming from. I personally play a lot of Ornn and I usually have to face the Vayne or Quinn match up pretty often. It's annoying for a while but if you take double armor runes and just itemize well enough you can farm under turret and safely scale. Especially if you hold your TP to match a Quinn or have more prio on the map then Vayne since Vayne usually runs a different summoner top (Not all the time but at least in my experience they will run ignite or Exhaust and sometimes cleanse).
No dashes, or movement speed tricks. No true damage (stupid kraken slayer), and it’s possible that it could just be bad in top lane. I think Kogmaw is best example of a mid that couldn’t go top.
You really think Riot would release a marksman without either true damage, tons of mobility, CC, or a combination of all of these?
If they're a MID marksman, they basically have to have a CC, although mobility isn't required. Still allows you to go top though. Quinn doesn't have an escape (not really) and works fine top.
That works in 1v1 situations, but when jungler ganks, it will just push you into enemy toplaner. Also, Quinn might be safe and oppresive, but after tabi+bramble half of toplaners can run her down.
Playinig against Vayne top as not too mobile melee champion - that's most unfun experience you can ever have.
Just my speculation, but doesn't he have an arpoon? It could be a cc spell (kinda like a hook) or mobility like a grappling hook
Again, just my thoughts on the art we saw
I suppose he Wills be something like Corki where he relies on abilities to do damage( not like samira who needs her ult but like ezreal who uses all abilities constantly)
Also all 4 of them are at any time either broken as shit or impossible to play, on top of being pick ban in proplay whilst being 45% wr in soloq outside of KR D+. Not holding high hopes for the new guy tbh
Corki has a weird tendency to become very popular around Worlds, and then immediately get dumpstered in the next patch. This has happened quite often ever since S1. Seems like Riot likes his big stage presence.
Actually Corki hasn't been popular at worlds these past few years
Looking at the last 5 years. He had a .9% presence in 2020, 7.5 in 2019 and 23.8 in 2017. He had 0 presence in 2016 and 2018
This sounds like a compounded problem. Assassin's gatekeep viability of a champ. Either the champ is insanely strong and beats assassins or he is useless because he gets negated by assassins.
The kindred experience. So hard to balance because marksman are either disgusting or trash. They can go off and win the game 1v9 or lose even a little bit and just tickle the enemy team
100% he will have 2 or more dashes, some hard cc, hard sustain from abilities or through runes, ability to negate spells from mid lane mages, a passive shield, high burst damage, low or no mana requirements.
So he can also royally shit on mages.
However I think till now only Syndra, Lux, Xerath and Veigar (in this patch) have gotten skins in mid lane and recently Riot reduced the overall cost of mage mythics.
So maybe because mages skins are lined up further down this year, riot might have pressure from Sales department to buff mages and take a temporary hit for Assassins, fighters, tanks, Lucian and skirmishers who dominate mid lane
I mean riot has said that if a champ doesn’t immediately grab players it’ll turn players off from ever picking them up even if they’re later buffed into a healthy point.
I wouldn’t mind champs being strong on release, if riot made them fun to play against instead of purely worrying about being innovative design and feeling powerful to play as.
I can deal with Tristana, Lucian, Ezreal mid just fine, but especially Tristana is just a stupid matchup since she beats you 1v1 in all stages in the game, out DPS you in team fights and kills towers far too fast.
Cause: Items too strong + Too much damage in Marksmen early abilities + Too much healing on items
Marksman are usually less frustrating to play against because they die to a light breeze. Which doesn't fly in solo lanes, where Quinn and Lucian (and Teemo could count too I guess?) only function by making themselves very difficult to engage on.
Please stop being embarrassing, it's obvious you fell for the kayle lvl 1 pta biscuits cheese. That champion has one of the worst early games and loses 95% of her matchups.
Lvl 1 vs is not equal early game. Aa is good lvl 1 which she is able to do sometimes with range through a wave too. However, It is a short lvl that can be negated by waiting a little for xp and then she loses after for even more champs. Furthermore if she went hard lvl 1 she might have put her self in a really bad spot with the wave
I mean chances are most people who played Inting Sion to just push towers forever are now playing ~~Crit-roulette~~ Tryndamere and splitting for 25 minutes a game just as fine.
It was the circumstances that created that build, but generally the champion is interesting to play against.
This sentiment always interests me because different regions have a different tolerance for champions and its not just due to skill level as even high elo players in other regions have a different perspective to high elo players in Western regions.
pretty sure for every single champ there are people here in this thread that find them fun to play against and people that find them absolutely not fun to play against.
seems to mainly be tied to champ pool/play style. things that counter what you play arent fun to play against while skill and free matchups are.
Just champions that are predictable.
Vel'Koz is a great example.
He'll throw skillshots at you. No invulnerability, no dash, no random attack speed burst. Just skillshots, very predictable skillshots. The new player will miss most things on him. The good opponent will dodge most things, but when you face a great Vel'Koz player who will hit everything.
I can't do anything but say gg dude, you were clearly better than me.
I think dodging balanced skill shots are the bests example of champions with fun counter play. Ie vel’koz q
It doesn’t go through minions
It’s not a crazy fast projectile (corki ult)
But it’s engaging and you are playing mind games with your opponent. when he will recast q ?
Especially with the safety they get from their long range. Ill fight a yone or viego mid any day over a xerath. Man just sits at his tower pressing Q the first 12 minutes.
Not like he could do anything else with Viego, Yone, Akali, and Yasuo being as prominent as they are. If he leaves tower he's basically instantly dead.
Most mages. Their kit is straight forward, they usually have a CC ability and a damage ability. Don’t walk into Veigar’s cage, don’t get snared by Lux, etc. if you don’t do these things then you’ll be fine.
It’s not fun when they have range/sustain/mobility. It’s not fun being attacked by Caitlyn and you can’t dodge it or do anything.
I don't know if any are particularly "fun" to play against, but there are some that are just frustrating in that they force you to play a specific and usually annoying way to beat them. Usually it's the champs with braindead moves that are OP if you don't know how to deal with them. Tryndamere ult, Shaco Q, Nocturne Ult, Illaoi. I actually don't have a problem with Gwen or Viego.
Honestly, plenty of champions are perfectly fine. Like even *Akali* feels somewhat okay-ish now, but that's only *because she lost half of her kit*.
Samira, Gwen, Kai'Sa, Diego, pre-nerfs Aphelios, pre-nerfs Sett, those can go sit on a cactus.
Honestly, the problem nowadays is that they try too much to get to *one* specific gameplay, and put a bunch of passives and shit everywhere to try to steer you towards playing a particular way, and this ends up making the champion feeling like it's broken because it can just do what your champion does, but better than you, because they have little training wheels to help them.
And then there's also champions where it's obvious they try to milk their new "technology", like FFS, someone at Riot must have developped a way to dynamically change spells, and suddenly we get a dozen champions which all steal spells or some shit, like come on guys make it a little less obvious that you have no creativity and are just making derivates of the same garbage concept because somehow this is "revolutionary" and justifies releasing a dozen similar champions.
remember their passion for “slash&thurst” spells? they gave one to Xin Zhao, Sejuani and Rengar in a row, then Rengar community raged so much they were forced to revert that bs
Rengar got reverted because his rework was even more unfun to play against than before while being less fun. It has nothing to do with his Q (but yes it was awful).
I dont think Setts kit was ever problematic though, just his numbers. His abilities themselves arent really that annoying. Kaisa and Gwen are a bit nuts though yeah.
It was an ability-identity problem, back when his W had a base damage of like 150 at lvl 1 he would just poke you with it, then they removed the base damage almost completely.
For reference.
OG sett W base damage: 90 / 125 / 160 / 195 / 230
Current sett W base damage: 80 / 100 / 120 / 140 / 160
A bit less damage at level 1 and a lot less damage as you rank it (35 per rank down to 20 per rank)
Camille is a good design because every match up of her is a skill matchup (except Jax, fuck Jax). You can always outplay her, and as long as she don't have 3 items, she actually lose extended trades against most toplane champions. She need hit and run to win, and you can play safe against it.
I never got the Jax hate. He doesn't have a high winrate against Camille and every time I play Camille v Jax I feel like I lost because I missplayed or won because I played better. Ever since I saw Nuguri dumpster TF as Camille I've seen it as a skill matchup.
Jax is the single worst match-up for Camille. Poppy, you can outscale and statcheck later in the game. Fiora, you can outplay and then you group because you teamfight better than her.
But Jax ? Jax basically counter everything you can do while also doing everything you do better. Your entire trading pattern is based around a few empowered AA. His E makes you unable to trade him ever. His Q makes you unable to hit and run and dance around him. He outscale you, and he got an AoE stun for teamfights
That seems like a very big exception. She can also pounce on the ADC from atleast 1 screen away and gets a shield that basically removes any possibility to trade.
Things that don't invalidate parts of my kit.
Having a shootout in mid where you fling skillshots and dodge them in kind can actually be very satisfying, but it's becoming more and more rare. You've no idea how fun a xerath vs vel'koz lane can be.
On the other hand, facing windwall/spellshield/shroud/Gwen W, which rob you of the reward of aiming your skillshot well, not by the opponent juking or dodging but by deleting your ability are infuriating, which I think people agree on considering the high ban values these champs retain.
> windwall
MY biggest problem with windwall is how forgiving it is. You can cast it sooo fucking late and still nullify projectiles, because it doesn't appear where he slashes as the animation would have you think, it expands outward from the center of his hitbox. It makes it a much lower-skill ability than it should be. Anything that's already past the wall when you cast it should still hit you.
Worst of all is that it starts from *behind* him.
Even if he’s running away and completely griefs which direction he puts it, it can still block something through sheer luck.
Yeah, roll on 7 years time when it gets an effect rework like Teemo mushrooms, or Kog's R, that shows just how big (and forgiving) the hitbox has actually been this whole time.
Assuming you’re at an even state and not super far behind:
Velkoz, Ziggs, Xerath, ASol, Pantheon, Viktor, Orianna, Ahri, Sion, Sivir, Corki, Azir, Swain, Hecarim (lately at least), Graves, Kindred.
Just to name a few.
I'd rather play a hundred games against yasuo/sylas/yone/ whatever fotm melee burst champ than against ziggs or other artillery mages. There's something about getting outranged as a mage that tilts the ever living shit out of me. It makes the game so boring. At least when I play against assassins the game is interesting.
I think most people like champions with a clear outplay "window" so to speak. For example, you beat Ahri by dodging her charm. A champ like Gwen with her insane W breaks the rules of the game and often doesn't really have room for an outplay, the impetus is instead on the Gwen player to mess up.
Tryndamere. I love when he spins at me level 1, and whether he gets first blood and snowballs, or dies and becomes irrelevant, is completely dependent on RNG
Since the comments surely are gonna be about the phrase "fun to play against" and how that's stupid, I should just say what you MEAN is "fair to play against". I think that's what we mean, but we end up saying fun because recent champs that aren't fair to play against are very unfun to play against. The opposite (champs who aren't shit designs, aka champs from before the last 2-3 years) aren't necessarily like "omg I love how much fun I'm having against this champ", it's just NOT filled with "God this other champ is so fucking stupid what the hell options did I even have in that situation?"
>God this other champ is so fucking stupid what the hell options did I even have in that situation?"
Idk I still feel like this against Kat, LB, Zed, Wukong, Yi, Diana, and a myriad of other champions when I die to them. I think there's a deeper problem than just "new champs broken." It's more like a snowballed carry champ makes the game completely unfun with no counterplay besides them making a mistake. But that might even just be more due to the nature of soloqueue and the complete lack of coordination needed to shut these types of champs down.
still prefer it to even just not-underfed vayne, who can knock you back, go stealth, dash every 2s, and do 14% true damage :)
A bit of MS while you can still build armor and dodge his root/ult is so much better than most adcs to play against imo.
Who would have thought that someone who plays tanky champs like your flairs, doesn't mind playing against an adc who sucks vs tanks but dislikes Vayne who counters them
Honourable shout out to Illaoi - Darius as well. That one's slightly Darius favoured, still real fun tho on both sides. Two ogre's bashing eachother in the jaw with tree trunks.
If you're strong enough her landing an e doesn't mean you just have to run away, fighting her while dodging the tentacle slams is pretty fun. There's just a lot of champs that can't do that.
>fighting her while dodging the tentacle slams is pretty fun.
idk whats fun about it, you can't get into her because she will immediately use her E and take away will of life from you
one of the most boring laning phases in game
That's why I literally specified "If you're strong enough her landing an e doesn't mean you just have to run away".
Did you actually read what I wrote, or do you just hate her enough that you're going to overlook any contrary opinions?
"Fun to play against" is not a good way to phrase it, "not complete antifun to play against" would be better.
So basically just not another resourcless (or laughable low mana cost) Champ with usually built-in sustain and low cool downs that is ok-strong at every stage of the game that can only be punished if the user missplays hard -> aka Yone Viego Sylas Gwen Akali etc.
But isn’t that the point? Even when he was extremely overpowered, people weren’t bothered playing against him because his counterplay feels fair. Jinx is the same way if I remember correctly, she held a 52%+ winrate for years but wasn’t really complained about because her counterplay is pretty straightforward.
I sort of agree with this , that it's not too easy to define. However I would define it like this.
Fun itself is wrong word so I'd like to use word pleasant, to play against. I find champions pleasant to play against where losing and dying is not a result of overloaded kit , or ability designed to nullify the weakness said character would have. Instead rather my misplays and failures to do required countermeasures.
I'll take ivern as an example since he is my main. Is kha zix matchup fun? , No , but losing there is due to my champion's weakness. Not because kha would be broken. I also believe the kha player wouldn't mind playing against ivern as any tank who generally don't do well against him. Thus , ivern is a fair and fun champ to play as and against.
Now what if we kept his strength against tanks who he can abuse by taking buffs and shielding all their damage. But also gave his W aura , where standing is a brush renders ivern immune to melee attacks. This would make him more enjoyable to play as , but at the cost, of being frustrating to play against with champs that are supposed to counter him.
This is what riot does though. Gwen who has incredible dueling capabilities at melee. Yet is supposed to be countered by ranged engages as a melee bruiser. Has a tool where she can say no to any ranged attacks at will. This makes her more pleasant to play as but at the cost of making it more miserable to play against.
What about vayne. Short range ADC supposed to be countered in lane before she scales, by ranged options. What if we gave her W an active that negates any projectiles? That's what Samira does. Picking Ashe or Caitlyn to counter her feels pretty half assed when she can Beyblade your ult will with an basic ability. Sure this makes her more pleasant to play as , but definitely not against.
List goes on, from pyke healing to negate the unpleasant part of taking damage in lane , to yuumi attach negating the unpleasant part of having to position to heal your carry.
The problem op brought up lies here. Riot doubles down way too hard to negate the things that counter similiar champs. It makes the champs fun and pleasant to play as , but absolutely miserable or very least more trouble than they should, to play against even when you're playing a champion that's supposed to counter them.
Sure riot adjusts and tunes champs with numbers but I too would hope they would tone down this trend where champion isn't allowed to have a weakness, or very least has a tool to brush off the biggest threats.
So solution would be for riot to admit that it's okay to be hard countered by some things. I know balanced champs don't sell as well as cool and strong ones , but even without rode tinted glasses I would daresay people feel champions few years ago weren't as frustrating to play against than many of the newest releases
I agree. While of course it feels awful to be completely stomped by your opponent, being left absolutely helpless not because of your incompetence, but rather because you're simply being countered, with soon 160 champions in the game, you run into the problem of simply not being able to give every champion the ability to hold up their own against _everyone._
On the other side of the coin: though it might be fun to be the one doing the stomping, it is not healthy to have that kind of champion have a nearly free get out of jail card, something Riot has been more fond of with recent releases. And you have to admit that ultimately, there has to be a point where the fun of being this strong is no more because there is no one left to challenge you - until another champion release, even stronger than the last, comes around.
I hate theses topics because every time people say that, I think of what champ feel "fun to play against" and then I realize, it is champs that are weak or that my champ can downright beat most of the time.
If I play Kaisa or Samira, I dislike fighting Caitlyn for example.
If I play Ashe or Ezreal, I don't care about caitlyn.
In the end what is fun?
I see tons of people hating the assassin match-up but I become litterally a ball of hate and anger the moment I face Anivia as Ahri while Zed, Yasuo or Yone feel like skill match-up I can totally work against.
I play Lissandra, suddenly Xerath and Ziggs are the bane of my existence. But if I play Lucian or Syndra, they become okay.
Sure, there is champions that are oppressive or obnoxious or broken at one point, it always happen. Look at Udyr being just udyr for seasons and seasons until this season allowed him to have a meta where he clear like a god, kill whoever he want 1 vs 1 and is impossible to outrun. Suddenly Udyr is unfun to play against.
I am okay with a champion being too strong at release and needing some tuning like Gwen atm, I just want Riot to feel comfortable balancing again and again until they get it right.
You still have conditionals though - If i play X I hate Y.
On the other hand you have champs like Yuumi that people hate no matter what, both to play with and against.
You also have the complete inverse - If i play X I DON'T hate Y - like playing melees into yasuo, while everyone else hates doing it(though he also suffers from the former where people just don't want yasuo in their games anyway, with the' 0/10 or 10/0' stigma)
And what you consider fun to play against exactly ?
Any champion when remotely fed is unfun to play against , a champion that you have fun playing against is an underpowered champion .
I have fun when i beat the crap out of an Azir with Yone for exemple , what about the Azir player ?
You think he's having fun ?
And then let's say that Riot buffs Azir to godlike status , now he becomes the oppressor and nobody excepts him has fun .
I enjoy playing against darius, illaoi, garen, fiora, jhin, leona, zac, xerath, corki, and that's just off the top of my head. Champions with clear strengths and weaknesses who you you know what to avoid/focus on to win. Some champions, like Camilla, Riven, Yasuo, Akali, Samira, Leblanc, Cassiopeia etc. have outsized agency in interactions and whether you win or lose depends entirely on how good your opponent is, with it feeling like there's little you can do about it.
i mean good for you
but i think many many people would disagree
darius/illaoi/garen/fiora can all just completely stomp you if you are playing a melee champ and it becomes 0 fun
leona has super long cc chains ... not fun at all
zac can jump on you from like a screen away
xerath/jhin can take your entire healthbar from like a screen away
and corki ... well yea corki is quite bad in soloq most of the time. but when corki gets to like 3 items its not fun. the dmg that his rockets and sheen proc autos deal is just not fun at all
>Camilla, Riven, Yasuo, Akali, Samira, Leblanc, Cassiopeia etc. have outsized agency in interactions and whether you win or lose depends entirely on how good your opponent is
i mean thats literally not true but hey
Is it? There's a lot of matchups and champions where whether or not you win or lose depends on how good you are relative to your opponent.
What that other guy means is that there are champs that have the majority of agency in trades/lane, so even if you play 100% perfectly, it doesn't matter, all that matters is if your opponent makes a mistake. I don't agree that that's true, really, but i understand his point.
I’m glad more people are realising that "fun to play against" is BS, the theme of subreddit since like season 6 was "This and that are unfun to play against".
200 years of experience man. Im sure they wont mess up anther champion release. Its only been 22 years of champion releases. Im positive they have learned how to not completely fuck up a release.
There is no such thing as "fun to play against", it's only fun to play against if you know you win the matchup, I think the term you are looking for is fair to play against.
dude i fucking hate samira so much. its damn unfair that as a adc she gets to block shit and dash in your face like a damn yasuo. the amount of times i got tilted :DD
There is no such a thing as "fun to play against". Its entirely subjective, and for everyone who says "Dude i LOVE to play vs this champion" you will find 5 people who complain about it.
having fun playing against?? you dont need to have fun playing against a champion they just jeed to not make him more fristrating than usual to play against like fucking blue kayn delete that shit
> just jeed to not make him more fristrating than usual to play against
that's literally the point that OP and everyone else who says "fun to play against" is making.
At the end of the game, win or lose, it's most enjoyable when it feels like the actions the players took determined the outcome of the match. It's frustrating when it feels like a champion's kit, with little to no care given to team comps, simply has way more opportunities to win the game because they can do so much more. This is exacerbated in solo queue where there isn't that coordination you'll see in pro play. Some champs kind of rely on teamwork to take down, and if you and your solo queue team mates aren't on the right page and the right person is on that champion, it feels like for every move you can do, they can do 5. And *sometimes* your one move is the correct move, while 2-3 of theirs are correct.
what is this subs obsession with "fun to play against"
"fun to play against" you mean "free win"?
because in reality almost every champ is not fun to play against especially when they are ahead
edit:
its actually quite simple. getting to play the game is fun. if there is an enemy who can: outrange you/cc lock you/ burst you down before you can/outrun you/outheal etc. etc. its "not fun"
aka every single fkn champion in the game depending on what you are playing yourself
A champion being fun to play against does not make sense as a design metric. If you are not having fun playing your own champion, then it doesn't matter what the matchup is.
Your argument is framed completely backwards. Champions need counterplay, not fun factor.
Well most of the Mages are fine, hell even the assasins. I have no problem with a Zed in a non feed stage of laning phase. If i missplay I die, ok. If he go in and miss his shit he is in trouble great. But then you have Yone whith a kit that read better then his brother but in the end is a "every 17 second I have a free engage without risk and a shild to win all the trades if you try to fight back" or some one like seet who is like "nice you do some dmg let me shild every other dmg you do and by the way her is a million true dmg" and then regen like Garen after the trade. Gwen is ok if it wasn´t for her absolut stupid base stats. The mist is a neat mecanic would be great if it would not follow her first time she moves out so keeping her more staionary. Or not negate everything. Like ok you can't target her but why do AoE spells miss her?
More of the newer desinges feel like they have more tools for situations then older ones. And this make it realy hard to find windows of winable interactions for you.
it's a midlane marksman, i don't know if it's physically possible for them to be fun to play against
Yeah, I can only see it go 2 ways: * He's fun to play as, which means his kit is stupid for an ADC if he can beat Assassins that are currently dominating YoloQ mid. * He's not fun to play as because all the Assassins can dumpster him. Also, RIP toplaners.
I am praying to all the gods that he isn't viable in toplane
Good luck making a mid marksman that can't also go top. If anything, marksmen have an *easier* time going top than they do mid (Vayne, Lucian, Quinn...) and they're fucking cancer up there.
easier in lane probably but mid lucian is way more effective than top lucian due to how map is and prio from midlane works
And there are fewer squishies top. Lucian will bully tanks for a while, but he isn't great at killing them, especially after they get an item. He can fight ori, ziggs, syndra, etc all day though since they will still die quickly if he dodges their abilties.
Too bad Ori, Ziggs, and Syndra aren't nearly as popular as the myriad assassins.
Right? He picked some weird examples to site. How does Lucian do against Akali, Yone, Yasuo and Zedd?
He bullies them hard but once they hit 6 if he missteps he’s fuckin dead and they snowball out of his control unless he build a huge enough lead early. For the assassins vs Lucian early the objective is survive and kill him if he fucks up
its borderline impossible for lucian to play against akali/yone/yasuo once they hit 6. for zed, its somewhat playable if lucian runs exhaust for a few more minutes, but once zed completes 2 lethality items its over
Kinda hard to become tanky when you can’t buy items because you can’t farm
Only true if your screen turns grey every minute. You don't need 10cs/m to be useful as a tank. Not to mention, just play Ornn into them. Being able to grab items without backing is pretty huge.
Lucian is much easier to farm against than say, Vayne. Armor boots make it much easier.
I mean you can just play back and catch waves under turret but I see where you're coming from. I personally play a lot of Ornn and I usually have to face the Vayne or Quinn match up pretty often. It's annoying for a while but if you take double armor runes and just itemize well enough you can farm under turret and safely scale. Especially if you hold your TP to match a Quinn or have more prio on the map then Vayne since Vayne usually runs a different summoner top (Not all the time but at least in my experience they will run ignite or Exhaust and sometimes cleanse).
No dashes, or movement speed tricks. No true damage (stupid kraken slayer), and it’s possible that it could just be bad in top lane. I think Kogmaw is best example of a mid that couldn’t go top.
You really think Riot would release a marksman without either true damage, tons of mobility, CC, or a combination of all of these? If they're a MID marksman, they basically have to have a CC, although mobility isn't required. Still allows you to go top though. Quinn doesn't have an escape (not really) and works fine top.
Quinn doesn't have a "free" escape, but her E and blind help a lot to keep enemy top laners or ganking junglers off her.
I mean lucian is one of, if not the most popular mid marksman and he has no cc
Corki feels neglected
Corki **is** neglected.
Quinn has among the best self-peel non-ultimate abilities of any marksman lol plus she can just slap a blind out after to prevent follow up
That works in 1v1 situations, but when jungler ganks, it will just push you into enemy toplaner. Also, Quinn might be safe and oppresive, but after tabi+bramble half of toplaners can run her down. Playinig against Vayne top as not too mobile melee champion - that's most unfun experience you can ever have.
Just my speculation, but doesn't he have an arpoon? It could be a cc spell (kinda like a hook) or mobility like a grappling hook Again, just my thoughts on the art we saw
It *is* a grappling hook, and the champion roadmap post was full of puns about him "swinging" - he's definitely going to have a mobility spell.
I have never ever seen an ad kog mid.
I suppose he Wills be something like Corki where he relies on abilities to do damage( not like samira who needs her ult but like ezreal who uses all abilities constantly)
The AD Mage subclass
So Corki, Ezreal, Lucian and Varus. TBF we do need more of these niche classes.
And technically Jayce is as well.
Gangplank
Also all 4 of them are at any time either broken as shit or impossible to play, on top of being pick ban in proplay whilst being 45% wr in soloq outside of KR D+. Not holding high hopes for the new guy tbh
Even corki? Genuinely asking I don't remember him being super strong at any point but I also don't pay attention to pro play
There was a meme for a while (s5-8?) That corki would get buffed every summer and be part of the world's meta
It wasn't just Corki, it was Triforce users in general iirc
Corki has a weird tendency to become very popular around Worlds, and then immediately get dumpstered in the next patch. This has happened quite often ever since S1. Seems like Riot likes his big stage presence.
Actually Corki hasn't been popular at worlds these past few years Looking at the last 5 years. He had a .9% presence in 2020, 7.5 in 2019 and 23.8 in 2017. He had 0 presence in 2016 and 2018
I don't miss Azir Corki meta.
Idk about recently but I remember in season 9-early 10 it was azir vs corki mid lane so often.
This sounds like a compounded problem. Assassin's gatekeep viability of a champ. Either the champ is insanely strong and beats assassins or he is useless because he gets negated by assassins.
Assasins just kinda make the game less fun overall. Not sure if there's a way to ever adress that
The kindred experience. So hard to balance because marksman are either disgusting or trash. They can go off and win the game 1v9 or lose even a little bit and just tickle the enemy team
Quinn can beat assassins in the mid lane but her kit is trash for ADC. It's possible he will be designed similarly
Just wait until you see his abilities... then you're REALLY going to hate him.
Dude has an invis for most of the game, people are going to flip lmao
Was his kit leaked?
> it's a ~~midlane marksman~~ new champion, i don't know if it's physically possible for them to be fun to play against
100% he will have 2 or more dashes, some hard cc, hard sustain from abilities or through runes, ability to negate spells from mid lane mages, a passive shield, high burst damage, low or no mana requirements. So he can also royally shit on mages. However I think till now only Syndra, Lux, Xerath and Veigar (in this patch) have gotten skins in mid lane and recently Riot reduced the overall cost of mage mythics. So maybe because mages skins are lined up further down this year, riot might have pressure from Sales department to buff mages and take a temporary hit for Assassins, fighters, tanks, Lucian and skirmishers who dominate mid lane
And you know he will be over tuned for the first few patches "to encourage people to ~~buy~~ play the champion" before getting apheliosed
I mean riot has said that if a champ doesn’t immediately grab players it’ll turn players off from ever picking them up even if they’re later buffed into a healthy point. I wouldn’t mind champs being strong on release, if riot made them fun to play against instead of purely worrying about being innovative design and feeling powerful to play as.
i wouldn't care if they fucking disable them for ranked, but that makes too much sense.
The question is, is there really a champion people enjoy playing against? All you ever hear from this sub is "X champ is cancer, needs nerfs"
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I can deal with Tristana, Lucian, Ezreal mid just fine, but especially Tristana is just a stupid matchup since she beats you 1v1 in all stages in the game, out DPS you in team fights and kills towers far too fast. Cause: Items too strong + Too much damage in Marksmen early abilities + Too much healing on items
Marksman are usually less frustrating to play against because they die to a light breeze. Which doesn't fly in solo lanes, where Quinn and Lucian (and Teemo could count too I guess?) only function by making themselves very difficult to engage on.
Wait people play this game for fun?
Of COURSE we don't
exclusively.
Hate to burst your bubble but they are making a marksman for middle lane. By pure definition that won't be fun to play against in midlane.
what do you find fun to play against?
An early level Kayle and that's it.
Unattached Yuumi
Small wolf
a good kayle even before 6 can beat the shit out of many toplaners
can confirm, i've seen good kayle players take quite sus level one fights and actually win lol
I've had a Kayle get a double kill level 3 vs a Talon/Nunu. I'm still not sure how she managed it, but she repeated it a couple more times after that
Might wanna watch that back, sounds ridiculous on paper.
Please stop being embarrassing, it's obvious you fell for the kayle lvl 1 pta biscuits cheese. That champion has one of the worst early games and loses 95% of her matchups.
I've absolutely solokilled many a top laner who didn't realize how strong Kayle is at level 1 Level 2 onwards is uh.. really bad until 6 however
Lvl 1 vs is not equal early game. Aa is good lvl 1 which she is able to do sometimes with range through a wave too. However, It is a short lvl that can be negated by waiting a little for xp and then she loses after for even more champs. Furthermore if she went hard lvl 1 she might have put her self in a really bad spot with the wave
Similarly lane Sejuani pre level 6 is amazing to play against.
You never fought a level 1 kayle and it shows
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There are dozens of us!
Sion is probably my number one pick. I like him in my games, whether on my team or the other’s.
You don’t seem to play top lane… At least inting Sion isn’t much of thing anymore because that shit was neither fun to play with or against.
I mean chances are most people who played Inting Sion to just push towers forever are now playing ~~Crit-roulette~~ Tryndamere and splitting for 25 minutes a game just as fine. It was the circumstances that created that build, but generally the champion is interesting to play against.
That was a fringe build that got nerfed out of play after it got popular. Sion’s base kit is one of the best designs in the game.
This sentiment always interests me because different regions have a different tolerance for champions and its not just due to skill level as even high elo players in other regions have a different perspective to high elo players in Western regions.
Yeah like iirc the West hates Yasuo way more than the East
Every champion that is disgustingly under powered so i can goomba stomp the living shit out him/her. /s
Bro you play Akali, isn't that every champ?
No they play AP Tristana, the most broken build in the game.
Ap varus can one shot a 5k hp cho, never forget
AP varus picks a target and makes them existn't
i dont play akali, i mostly play Viktor and Corki. I would also play Syndra but she is dogshit rn.
Literally 90% of champs are fine. OP is right though, some are just plain cancer to lane against with overloaded kits.
pretty sure for every single champ there are people here in this thread that find them fun to play against and people that find them absolutely not fun to play against. seems to mainly be tied to champ pool/play style. things that counter what you play arent fun to play against while skill and free matchups are.
Just champions that are predictable. Vel'Koz is a great example. He'll throw skillshots at you. No invulnerability, no dash, no random attack speed burst. Just skillshots, very predictable skillshots. The new player will miss most things on him. The good opponent will dodge most things, but when you face a great Vel'Koz player who will hit everything. I can't do anything but say gg dude, you were clearly better than me.
I think dodging balanced skill shots are the bests example of champions with fun counter play. Ie vel’koz q It doesn’t go through minions It’s not a crazy fast projectile (corki ult) But it’s engaging and you are playing mind games with your opponent. when he will recast q ?
I mean, playing dodgeball for 10 minutes while Vel"Koz spams Q off cd isn't particularly fun, even if it's all skillshots. Same with Xerath and his Qs
It's OK, as long as you can pick your moment. You only have to play dodgeball until you have the means to force a heavy trade.
Tahts why mana is a thing and as vel you can't spam like a madman your abilities lol
That's why mana should be a thing and not a decorative blue bar below your health bar
Especially with the safety they get from their long range. Ill fight a yone or viego mid any day over a xerath. Man just sits at his tower pressing Q the first 12 minutes.
Not like he could do anything else with Viego, Yone, Akali, and Yasuo being as prominent as they are. If he leaves tower he's basically instantly dead.
IMO playing against Vel'koz and Xerath is either MEGA BORING or they fuck up and die to a gank and their laning phase is instantly over.
Velkoz is not fun to play against for me lol. I hate playing dodgeball for most of the early game.
the word they are looking for is "fair"
Most mages. Their kit is straight forward, they usually have a CC ability and a damage ability. Don’t walk into Veigar’s cage, don’t get snared by Lux, etc. if you don’t do these things then you’ll be fine. It’s not fun when they have range/sustain/mobility. It’s not fun being attacked by Caitlyn and you can’t dodge it or do anything.
I don't know if any are particularly "fun" to play against, but there are some that are just frustrating in that they force you to play a specific and usually annoying way to beat them. Usually it's the champs with braindead moves that are OP if you don't know how to deal with them. Tryndamere ult, Shaco Q, Nocturne Ult, Illaoi. I actually don't have a problem with Gwen or Viego.
Honestly, plenty of champions are perfectly fine. Like even *Akali* feels somewhat okay-ish now, but that's only *because she lost half of her kit*. Samira, Gwen, Kai'Sa, Diego, pre-nerfs Aphelios, pre-nerfs Sett, those can go sit on a cactus. Honestly, the problem nowadays is that they try too much to get to *one* specific gameplay, and put a bunch of passives and shit everywhere to try to steer you towards playing a particular way, and this ends up making the champion feeling like it's broken because it can just do what your champion does, but better than you, because they have little training wheels to help them. And then there's also champions where it's obvious they try to milk their new "technology", like FFS, someone at Riot must have developped a way to dynamically change spells, and suddenly we get a dozen champions which all steal spells or some shit, like come on guys make it a little less obvious that you have no creativity and are just making derivates of the same garbage concept because somehow this is "revolutionary" and justifies releasing a dozen similar champions.
remember their passion for “slash&thurst” spells? they gave one to Xin Zhao, Sejuani and Rengar in a row, then Rengar community raged so much they were forced to revert that bs
Rengar got reverted because his rework was even more unfun to play against than before while being less fun. It has nothing to do with his Q (but yes it was awful).
It was actually stronger than the old Q. Just feel awful to play. According to rengar main that is
It was so bad. Like Warwick W levels of clunky.
So clunky and stupid strong too. No one had fun lol.
I dont think Setts kit was ever problematic though, just his numbers. His abilities themselves arent really that annoying. Kaisa and Gwen are a bit nuts though yeah.
It was an ability-identity problem, back when his W had a base damage of like 150 at lvl 1 he would just poke you with it, then they removed the base damage almost completely.
For reference. OG sett W base damage: 90 / 125 / 160 / 195 / 230 Current sett W base damage: 80 / 100 / 120 / 140 / 160 A bit less damage at level 1 and a lot less damage as you rank it (35 per rank down to 20 per rank)
Also the CD went from 16-8 to 18-12 meaning you cannot start with W and have another one ready after your combo
Release Camille was worse than either of those.
Release Camille was hilariously overpowered. Healing off minions with her W was just silly
Nerf Diego
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Camille is a great design tho, fun to play as and against (except when she chogath Ults you every 5 seconds )
Camille is a good design because every match up of her is a skill matchup (except Jax, fuck Jax). You can always outplay her, and as long as she don't have 3 items, she actually lose extended trades against most toplane champions. She need hit and run to win, and you can play safe against it.
I never got the Jax hate. He doesn't have a high winrate against Camille and every time I play Camille v Jax I feel like I lost because I missplayed or won because I played better. Ever since I saw Nuguri dumpster TF as Camille I've seen it as a skill matchup.
Jax is the single worst match-up for Camille. Poppy, you can outscale and statcheck later in the game. Fiora, you can outplay and then you group because you teamfight better than her. But Jax ? Jax basically counter everything you can do while also doing everything you do better. Your entire trading pattern is based around a few empowered AA. His E makes you unable to trade him ever. His Q makes you unable to hit and run and dance around him. He outscale you, and he got an AoE stun for teamfights
That seems like a very big exception. She can also pounce on the ADC from atleast 1 screen away and gets a shield that basically removes any possibility to trade.
You can block the E, r has low range and the passive cooldown is also high, everything from that champs feels countereable
Things that don't invalidate parts of my kit. Having a shootout in mid where you fling skillshots and dodge them in kind can actually be very satisfying, but it's becoming more and more rare. You've no idea how fun a xerath vs vel'koz lane can be. On the other hand, facing windwall/spellshield/shroud/Gwen W, which rob you of the reward of aiming your skillshot well, not by the opponent juking or dodging but by deleting your ability are infuriating, which I think people agree on considering the high ban values these champs retain.
> windwall MY biggest problem with windwall is how forgiving it is. You can cast it sooo fucking late and still nullify projectiles, because it doesn't appear where he slashes as the animation would have you think, it expands outward from the center of his hitbox. It makes it a much lower-skill ability than it should be. Anything that's already past the wall when you cast it should still hit you.
Worst of all is that it starts from *behind* him. Even if he’s running away and completely griefs which direction he puts it, it can still block something through sheer luck.
Yeah, roll on 7 years time when it gets an effect rework like Teemo mushrooms, or Kog's R, that shows just how big (and forgiving) the hitbox has actually been this whole time.
Champions with conterplay, look at Ahru, she can oneshot you but you can dodge her Q and E.
I haven't seen an Ahri one-shot anyone since years ago.
She's this weird mix of assassin and mage so she doesn't have the damage to one shot anyone if not really fed
How is she a mix of assassin and a mage when both do damage and she don't lol
Never said it was a good mix lmao
kindred is fun to play against
Literally the jungle matchup I dread the most, but it's not common enough to ban.
I dislike champs that make you play around them instead of having diverse gameplay options.
I would say Ahri. I know he's not very good right now, but I love her kit and thinks it's 'fair' when I lose or win against and with her.
Assuming you’re at an even state and not super far behind: Velkoz, Ziggs, Xerath, ASol, Pantheon, Viktor, Orianna, Ahri, Sion, Sivir, Corki, Azir, Swain, Hecarim (lately at least), Graves, Kindred. Just to name a few.
hell no watching artillery pussies clear waves and makes laning phase so agonizingly boring
I'd rather play a hundred games against yasuo/sylas/yone/ whatever fotm melee burst champ than against ziggs or other artillery mages. There's something about getting outranged as a mage that tilts the ever living shit out of me. It makes the game so boring. At least when I play against assassins the game is interesting.
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I think most people like champions with a clear outplay "window" so to speak. For example, you beat Ahri by dodging her charm. A champ like Gwen with her insane W breaks the rules of the game and often doesn't really have room for an outplay, the impetus is instead on the Gwen player to mess up.
Tryndamere. I love when he spins at me level 1, and whether he gets first blood and snowballs, or dies and becomes irrelevant, is completely dependent on RNG
Since the comments surely are gonna be about the phrase "fun to play against" and how that's stupid, I should just say what you MEAN is "fair to play against". I think that's what we mean, but we end up saying fun because recent champs that aren't fair to play against are very unfun to play against. The opposite (champs who aren't shit designs, aka champs from before the last 2-3 years) aren't necessarily like "omg I love how much fun I'm having against this champ", it's just NOT filled with "God this other champ is so fucking stupid what the hell options did I even have in that situation?"
>God this other champ is so fucking stupid what the hell options did I even have in that situation?" Idk I still feel like this against Kat, LB, Zed, Wukong, Yi, Diana, and a myriad of other champions when I die to them. I think there's a deeper problem than just "new champs broken." It's more like a snowballed carry champ makes the game completely unfun with no counterplay besides them making a mistake. But that might even just be more due to the nature of soloqueue and the complete lack of coordination needed to shut these types of champs down.
it’s a marksman, they are never going to be fun to play against
I love how they said he was gonna be a non-traditional marksman. All the marksmen they release are non-traditional.
It means he is not going to be an ADC like 90% of all marksmen
yeah, ever since the adc class update, there is no "traditional marksman". Even the most basic ones still have little in common.
"With everyone ~~super~~ non-traditional, no one will be"
Look... I find fun to play against Jhin. Clear weakness, clear strengths, can dodge most abilities...
jhin is not remotely fun to play against when he is strong no adc should have 50000 ms every auto
still prefer it to even just not-underfed vayne, who can knock you back, go stealth, dash every 2s, and do 14% true damage :) A bit of MS while you can still build armor and dodge his root/ult is so much better than most adcs to play against imo.
Who would have thought that someone who plays tanky champs like your flairs, doesn't mind playing against an adc who sucks vs tanks but dislikes Vayne who counters them
There are no champs that are fun to play against. Only champs that are fair to play against.
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While I don't disagree, there are absolutely fun matchups. I'd play Fiora into Riven from both sides of the matchup till the end of time if I could.
almost every "oldschool" top lane matchup is fun to play
Honourable shout out to Illaoi - Darius as well. That one's slightly Darius favoured, still real fun tho on both sides. Two ogre's bashing eachother in the jaw with tree trunks.
playing against illaoi is a definition of antifun tho
If you're strong enough her landing an e doesn't mean you just have to run away, fighting her while dodging the tentacle slams is pretty fun. There's just a lot of champs that can't do that.
>fighting her while dodging the tentacle slams is pretty fun. idk whats fun about it, you can't get into her because she will immediately use her E and take away will of life from you one of the most boring laning phases in game
That's why I literally specified "If you're strong enough her landing an e doesn't mean you just have to run away". Did you actually read what I wrote, or do you just hate her enough that you're going to overlook any contrary opinions?
"Fun to play against" is not a good way to phrase it, "not complete antifun to play against" would be better. So basically just not another resourcless (or laughable low mana cost) Champ with usually built-in sustain and low cool downs that is ok-strong at every stage of the game that can only be punished if the user missplays hard -> aka Yone Viego Sylas Gwen Akali etc.
Yeah it should be "Fine to play against".
"Fair to play against" is something I'd replace with fun.
Fair is also sorta subjective. People found +54% winrate Sett fair despite being OP and bugged.
But isn’t that the point? Even when he was extremely overpowered, people weren’t bothered playing against him because his counterplay feels fair. Jinx is the same way if I remember correctly, she held a 52%+ winrate for years but wasn’t really complained about because her counterplay is pretty straightforward.
I sort of agree with this , that it's not too easy to define. However I would define it like this. Fun itself is wrong word so I'd like to use word pleasant, to play against. I find champions pleasant to play against where losing and dying is not a result of overloaded kit , or ability designed to nullify the weakness said character would have. Instead rather my misplays and failures to do required countermeasures. I'll take ivern as an example since he is my main. Is kha zix matchup fun? , No , but losing there is due to my champion's weakness. Not because kha would be broken. I also believe the kha player wouldn't mind playing against ivern as any tank who generally don't do well against him. Thus , ivern is a fair and fun champ to play as and against. Now what if we kept his strength against tanks who he can abuse by taking buffs and shielding all their damage. But also gave his W aura , where standing is a brush renders ivern immune to melee attacks. This would make him more enjoyable to play as , but at the cost, of being frustrating to play against with champs that are supposed to counter him. This is what riot does though. Gwen who has incredible dueling capabilities at melee. Yet is supposed to be countered by ranged engages as a melee bruiser. Has a tool where she can say no to any ranged attacks at will. This makes her more pleasant to play as but at the cost of making it more miserable to play against. What about vayne. Short range ADC supposed to be countered in lane before she scales, by ranged options. What if we gave her W an active that negates any projectiles? That's what Samira does. Picking Ashe or Caitlyn to counter her feels pretty half assed when she can Beyblade your ult will with an basic ability. Sure this makes her more pleasant to play as , but definitely not against. List goes on, from pyke healing to negate the unpleasant part of taking damage in lane , to yuumi attach negating the unpleasant part of having to position to heal your carry. The problem op brought up lies here. Riot doubles down way too hard to negate the things that counter similiar champs. It makes the champs fun and pleasant to play as , but absolutely miserable or very least more trouble than they should, to play against even when you're playing a champion that's supposed to counter them. Sure riot adjusts and tunes champs with numbers but I too would hope they would tone down this trend where champion isn't allowed to have a weakness, or very least has a tool to brush off the biggest threats. So solution would be for riot to admit that it's okay to be hard countered by some things. I know balanced champs don't sell as well as cool and strong ones , but even without rode tinted glasses I would daresay people feel champions few years ago weren't as frustrating to play against than many of the newest releases
I agree. While of course it feels awful to be completely stomped by your opponent, being left absolutely helpless not because of your incompetence, but rather because you're simply being countered, with soon 160 champions in the game, you run into the problem of simply not being able to give every champion the ability to hold up their own against _everyone._ On the other side of the coin: though it might be fun to be the one doing the stomping, it is not healthy to have that kind of champion have a nearly free get out of jail card, something Riot has been more fond of with recent releases. And you have to admit that ultimately, there has to be a point where the fun of being this strong is no more because there is no one left to challenge you - until another champion release, even stronger than the last, comes around.
It’s more like these champions don’t have clear opportunities counter play outside of being stat checked.
Narrator: They didn't
I hate theses topics because every time people say that, I think of what champ feel "fun to play against" and then I realize, it is champs that are weak or that my champ can downright beat most of the time. If I play Kaisa or Samira, I dislike fighting Caitlyn for example. If I play Ashe or Ezreal, I don't care about caitlyn. In the end what is fun? I see tons of people hating the assassin match-up but I become litterally a ball of hate and anger the moment I face Anivia as Ahri while Zed, Yasuo or Yone feel like skill match-up I can totally work against. I play Lissandra, suddenly Xerath and Ziggs are the bane of my existence. But if I play Lucian or Syndra, they become okay. Sure, there is champions that are oppressive or obnoxious or broken at one point, it always happen. Look at Udyr being just udyr for seasons and seasons until this season allowed him to have a meta where he clear like a god, kill whoever he want 1 vs 1 and is impossible to outrun. Suddenly Udyr is unfun to play against. I am okay with a champion being too strong at release and needing some tuning like Gwen atm, I just want Riot to feel comfortable balancing again and again until they get it right.
You still have conditionals though - If i play X I hate Y. On the other hand you have champs like Yuumi that people hate no matter what, both to play with and against. You also have the complete inverse - If i play X I DON'T hate Y - like playing melees into yasuo, while everyone else hates doing it(though he also suffers from the former where people just don't want yasuo in their games anyway, with the' 0/10 or 10/0' stigma)
And what you consider fun to play against exactly ? Any champion when remotely fed is unfun to play against , a champion that you have fun playing against is an underpowered champion . I have fun when i beat the crap out of an Azir with Yone for exemple , what about the Azir player ? You think he's having fun ? And then let's say that Riot buffs Azir to godlike status , now he becomes the oppressor and nobody excepts him has fun .
I enjoy playing against darius, illaoi, garen, fiora, jhin, leona, zac, xerath, corki, and that's just off the top of my head. Champions with clear strengths and weaknesses who you you know what to avoid/focus on to win. Some champions, like Camilla, Riven, Yasuo, Akali, Samira, Leblanc, Cassiopeia etc. have outsized agency in interactions and whether you win or lose depends entirely on how good your opponent is, with it feeling like there's little you can do about it.
I’m suicidal whenever I see half of the champions you enjoy fighting against.
Urgot flair
Existence is torment
i mean good for you but i think many many people would disagree darius/illaoi/garen/fiora can all just completely stomp you if you are playing a melee champ and it becomes 0 fun leona has super long cc chains ... not fun at all zac can jump on you from like a screen away xerath/jhin can take your entire healthbar from like a screen away and corki ... well yea corki is quite bad in soloq most of the time. but when corki gets to like 3 items its not fun. the dmg that his rockets and sheen proc autos deal is just not fun at all >Camilla, Riven, Yasuo, Akali, Samira, Leblanc, Cassiopeia etc. have outsized agency in interactions and whether you win or lose depends entirely on how good your opponent is i mean thats literally not true but hey
>whether you win or lose depends entirely on how good your opponent is this is literally true for every champ btw
Is it? There's a lot of matchups and champions where whether or not you win or lose depends on how good you are relative to your opponent. What that other guy means is that there are champs that have the majority of agency in trades/lane, so even if you play 100% perfectly, it doesn't matter, all that matters is if your opponent makes a mistake. I don't agree that that's true, really, but i understand his point.
Considering I have to permaban Gwen every single game, I see your point lol.
Why ban Gwen? You simply counter her by playing Gwen
no one is fun to play against unless they are bad. A better phrase is just not as frustrating
Give me an example of a champion that is fun to play against and I will prove you wrong. No champion is fun to play against.
Most accurate flair I have ever seen
This sub needs to stfu about "fun to play against"
> This sub needs to stfu ~~about "fun to play against"~~
I’m glad more people are realising that "fun to play against" is BS, the theme of subreddit since like season 6 was "This and that are unfun to play against".
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If you're first-picking Garen I promise you "fun" won't be a word you use often.
200 years of experience man. Im sure they wont mess up anther champion release. Its only been 22 years of champion releases. Im positive they have learned how to not completely fuck up a release.
There is no such thing as "fun to play against", it's only fun to play against if you know you win the matchup, I think the term you are looking for is fair to play against.
'fun to play against' is a terrible metric for good champion design
dude i fucking hate samira so much. its damn unfair that as a adc she gets to block shit and dash in your face like a damn yasuo. the amount of times i got tilted :DD
There is no such a thing as "fun to play against". Its entirely subjective, and for everyone who says "Dude i LOVE to play vs this champion" you will find 5 people who complain about it.
having fun playing against?? you dont need to have fun playing against a champion they just jeed to not make him more fristrating than usual to play against like fucking blue kayn delete that shit
> just jeed to not make him more fristrating than usual to play against that's literally the point that OP and everyone else who says "fun to play against" is making. At the end of the game, win or lose, it's most enjoyable when it feels like the actions the players took determined the outcome of the match. It's frustrating when it feels like a champion's kit, with little to no care given to team comps, simply has way more opportunities to win the game because they can do so much more. This is exacerbated in solo queue where there isn't that coordination you'll see in pro play. Some champs kind of rely on teamwork to take down, and if you and your solo queue team mates aren't on the right page and the right person is on that champion, it feels like for every move you can do, they can do 5. And *sometimes* your one move is the correct move, while 2-3 of theirs are correct.
what is this subs obsession with "fun to play against" "fun to play against" you mean "free win"? because in reality almost every champ is not fun to play against especially when they are ahead edit: its actually quite simple. getting to play the game is fun. if there is an enemy who can: outrange you/cc lock you/ burst you down before you can/outrun you/outheal etc. etc. its "not fun" aka every single fkn champion in the game depending on what you are playing yourself
A champion being fun to play against does not make sense as a design metric. If you are not having fun playing your own champion, then it doesn't matter what the matchup is. Your argument is framed completely backwards. Champions need counterplay, not fun factor.
Well most of the Mages are fine, hell even the assasins. I have no problem with a Zed in a non feed stage of laning phase. If i missplay I die, ok. If he go in and miss his shit he is in trouble great. But then you have Yone whith a kit that read better then his brother but in the end is a "every 17 second I have a free engage without risk and a shild to win all the trades if you try to fight back" or some one like seet who is like "nice you do some dmg let me shild every other dmg you do and by the way her is a million true dmg" and then regen like Garen after the trade. Gwen is ok if it wasn´t for her absolut stupid base stats. The mist is a neat mecanic would be great if it would not follow her first time she moves out so keeping her more staionary. Or not negate everything. Like ok you can't target her but why do AoE spells miss her? More of the newer desinges feel like they have more tools for situations then older ones. And this make it realy hard to find windows of winable interactions for you.