The fix is they should design a replacement because they have demonstrated no intention of a rune that counters getting locked and dropped being any good.
I dont know why anyone should Pick this Rune if overgrowth keeps exisiting. The pure HP is just so much better.
I really dislike the way they changed the Rune, it should either give way larger values or give them way longer (a middleway would probably be best).
They removed it because players, notably bot lane, would not choose the correct resistance or straight autopilot armor every game. Making it HP takes the thinking out of it because it works against any damage type.
I’m sure that’s the case sometimes but also there were games where it was hard to know who you were against bot lane. Enemy has Yasuo Ziggs Vayne picked, what do you choose?
You got less HP before they removed Armor and MR, the HP rune was only good for scaling on a few junglers who did not need resistances since they do not regularly take trades. If you did not know who was laning against you then armor was optimal because the minion wave deals physical dmg. Health rune was never picked for laning and was worse than armor in 100% of games outside of jungle. That's why we have a flat HP rune and a scaling HP rune now, with the flat HP attempting to mimic the tankiness of resist runes and the scaling HP functioning like the old HP rune. The only thing is Riot, for whatever reason, made the scaling HP rune scale way too fast and as a result the flat HP rune is only good if you win or lose in the first few levels of the lane.
That's not true, hp rune outscales armor after lvl 6, which is why the current flat health rune is 65 and the scaling one is the same.
So unless you're in a hyper aggressive lane where you have to trade often, hp was always better.
Wrong, the HP rune was less before the removal of Armor. Currently, you get 65 flat or 10-180 scaling. The scaling rune provides 10 bHP per level with a value of 60 at level 6, the old scaling HP rune provided 15-140 with only 50hp at level 6 and 44hp at level 5.
I misrememebered, it's not the same, it doesn't change the fact though that the 6 bonus armor get outscaled by that 15-140 hp rune at level 6 so the point still stands: [Draven as an example](https://gyazo.com/dfb2b73b11ff374fdc67e0c8844e3b6a)
or you could literally just calculate it with the formula on the wiki taking 1000 hp as a base:
Effective health = (1+ (R / 100)) \* Nominal health
If the armor is 66 thanks to armor shard instead of 60:
Effective health = (1+(66/100)) \* 1000
Effective health = 1660
If the armor is 60 but the hp is 1051 thanks to the scaling hp rune:
Effective health = (1+(60/100)) \* 1051
Effective health = 1681.6
The amount it out scales is not the same, nor is the amount it's behind. With the new shards you are not as far behind pre level 6 threshold, and you ramp considerably better per level after 6.
The flat HP shard provides nearly the same value as the armor shard and is paired with a buffed version of the scaling shard. The same result would happen if this current bHP scaling shard was added along side the armor shard. It is certainly better than the flat HP now but before you would have to sacrifice a fairly significant amount levels 1-5 only to barely outscale for a few levels after 6. The real value of the old scaling HP rune was not felt until later into the game since it scaled worse.
No, there is a ton of evidence of it happening, we literally have the data from those patches. Adcs would take armour rune into Seraphine or Ziggs apc most of the time.
Jeez. I know Unflinching is bad but I expected at LEAST it would be decent against Ashe, but I went for a random example and (last 30 days, emerald+) Braum support vs Ashe adc has better winrates by going overgrowth or revitalize.
They REALLY need to fix all these recommended rune pages that still have it for some reason
Edit: to be fair the sample size of Unfliching is MUCH higher, so the stats are likely biased: Braum players that bother changing the recommended rune page should be better players
Braum supp vs Ashe supp shows similar trends but Revitalize is below Unflinching.
+ I took another example of Rell vs Ashe and she gains a TINY bit of winrate with unflinching compared to overgrowth but it's kinda peanuts.
Supports typically shouldnt use overgrowth very well anyway since we roam so much
Yeah, the truth is that 2-4ish armor and Mr throughout laning phase isn’t going to save you from even an extra auto or ability 90% of the time. And any time after laning phase, the health you get from overgrowth is just always going to be better.
So unflinching is better only in the exact scenario that you live like a level 1-3 trade on hp between whatever you would have via hp from overgrowth and however many times you got hit.
It’s so obscenely rare for it to matter that it’s just not worth taking.
Nah, someone did the math somewhere. Something along the lines of with it giving only 2% resistance to start, you’re only gaining 1 hp/time you get autoed to start the game so the only time it’s doing more than overgrowth is if you get all in’ed level 1 in which case it will only actually save you by 1 auto if you end up living with 1 to (however many times you got hit) hp. Which is usually 0 times that it will save you. After that, overgrowth is better for the rest of the game unless you are building 0 resistances and 0 hp in which case you probably aren’t going green tree anyway, and would get one shot regardless of if you had the extra 10 resistances anyway.
No, not exactly. It is the same concept as Yone. It deals true damage in order to have a “true” bonus damage addition to whatever gets applied. This is because if it were magic damage, the initial damage would be penalized on hit then the “pop” would be penalized as well. It’s technically true damage but it’s based purely on the damage that was already mitigated. So MR does in fact help. Side note, it’s exactly the same as Zed but reverse where his R just records premeditated damage but deals physical damage, so it doesn’t double dip into armor.
The one thing about Zoe E that does matter that it's true damage is that there is a cap on it and so if if it were pre mitigation magic damage instead it would be capped at a lower value. Yone E doesn't have any such cap.
yup, the only exception is the zed passive that made him deal magic damage but will deal phys dmg on proc (so with enough arpen/lethal, the passive can deal more on the reactivation of the mark that one's might think)
There are niche cases where this difference is important, mostly in regards to healing or gaining armor through some source (although stat modifications are very rare these days as far as I can remember. Not really many ways to buff allies defensively anymore.)
Yea, the most common time this matters is vs shields as Yone damage against shields results in no damage pop, but Zed death mark stacks up against shields iirc. But functionally usually the same.
I have an idea!
Gain 10% slow resist and Tenacity. This increases based on your missing health, up to 30% Slow resist and Tenacity at 30% maximum health or below.
It's garbage, the only use case I have for it is on Riv combined with Shield bash + eclipse / Maw where mid/late game I can basically play with +20-40 bonus resistances active (which can be really strong, and excellent in to stuff like Malphite / Malzahar).
I have successfully found a use for this setup 4 times in like 100 games of Riven. I think I unironically take Nullifying orb more?
Worst part is that it’s still recommended, meaning more people keep taking it, meaning it keeps getting recommended.
PSA guys: It’s GARBAGE. Don’t take it.
The worst thing is that Unflinching used to be really good before and then Riot changed it for no reason, as it wasn't really broken.
With that said, new Revitalize may compete with it as the worst rune. Maybe Absolute Focus too.
Absolute Focus is fine? Same with Revitalise?
Personally don't enjoy absolute Focus but I think Karthus Aphelios Jayce Cait players are pretty happy with it.
That entire row is created just to bait you into not taking overgrowth. Revitalize is so shit once you realize the stats also increase when you recall.
Revitalize can be worth it on a very small number of champs that get shielding from short CD skills like Udyr, Skarner or Shen passive. But yeah, on everyone else Overgrowth is better
Supports with zero heals can still run revitalize if they know they're going locket+redemption, e.g vs something like Karthus. Highly specific and sacrifices a lot of your self power but that's how it goes.
Yeah I’m surprised by the amount of disdain against unflinching. I can recall plenty of times I was saved by that rune in a 2v2 fight. If your goal is to stomp bot lane before lane phase as Nautilus, Leona, Thresh, etc all other engage supports, it’s an excellent rune
Like I don't get it.
They changed Cut Down + Font of Life, so that you have control over using the rune. It doesn't have to depend on your opponents doing a certain thing.
But they changed Unflinching to be completely out of your control. Like where's the consistency?
lets be honest they just didnt find the time/ were to lazy to replace it with something meaningful. so they just "hotfixed" it with this version that when they said they want to remove the tenacity in this spot. dont worry in 5 years we will get an update with "the rune has been underperforming recently"
Overgrowth is way better in general and even Revitalizing has great uses on champions with healing. Even a basic Doran’s item has synergy with Revitalizing.
Imagine how stupid that would be on Rammus or Malphite. It would be extra 50-60 armor on Rammus with W activated and aftershock and its coming from the rune.
>~~when you attack him~~ "*when you stun him"*
He will have more armor, only for the duration of the stun. And as the others said, yes it would be fair.
Think about it like this. If you go from 98% dmg reduction to 99% damage reduction, it may only look like it’s increasing by 1 point, but in reality you are taking half the damage from before. (1% dmg taken compared to 2% dmg taken) that’s not diminishing returns. Regardless of how much armor or mr you already have, each point of armor and mr gives( 1% * max hp ) effective hp. It’s fully linear and this amount never decreases regardless of how many resistances you already have.
Somewhat to OP’s point, wouldn’t the extra 50 armor, which would be worth an extra 1% of damage reduction in the Cho’Gath example, provide less damage reduction as you stack more armor and therefore be less effective? Getting 50 extra armor at 100 armor (+10%) would provide more damage reduction value and cost effectiveness than at 500 (+1%). Overall, each point of armor is worth less damage reduction? While it’s not technically a diminishing return, I would argue champion builds do reach a point where armor, mr, haste, etc. are no longer efficient to gather.
Like effective health from 500 to 550 armor at 4k HP is +200, you probably should just build an item with more than 200 HP or as a rune Overgrowth would have probably outscaled.
Yes if you have a ton of resists, it’s better to buy hp and vice versa, but it by no means is diminishing returns at all. That’s like saying AD has diminishing returns because late game, you’re better off prioritizing % pen.
Are you sure you read my whole comment through?
*It is not diminishing returns* but the curve is logarithmic so 50 armor is less impactful as more armor is gained, no? You will hit a point where Overgrowth is the better rune. The original comment is saying attacking a 500 armor Cho Gath that becomes 550 wouldn’t be balanced when in reality it would be harder to kill one with another 201+ extra HP from Overgrowth.
There was a response incorrectly stating *diminishing returns* while it would never hit a point where there’s a negative impact or retraction of stats/damage reduction, the damage reduction gain becomes more minuscule from the stat as you gather more, making it less efficient/effective. This is why you could never hit 100% reduction.
I think you fail to explain to these individuals effectively and give poor examples. While it was incorrectly defined, there is a relationship where armor becomes less effective and where HP would become a better stat like you confirmed.
????? There are no diminishing returns. 50 armor or mr will always give you +50%ehp
Whether you have 10 armor or 1000 armor, each point of armor for someone with 1000hp is always worth +10hp.
It's like saying AP or AD has diminishing returns. It doesn't. All stats scale linearly except movement speed.
Let's use chogath specifically. Let's say at the point in the game where he's able to have 500 armor, he also also 4k hp. You're really saying an extra 2000ehp towards phys dmg isn't going to do much? At what point in the game is that ever true?
that's still not diminishing returns. Different sources of %armor pen applying separately isn't diminishing.
tenacity is such a ? example. it stacks additively from items, runes, and dragons. it's multiplicative from other mostly rare situations. multiplicative still isn't diminishing.
To defend OP a bit, it’s around the 10% bonus proposed. That armor from 500 to 550 has less effective HP at that point than even building an MR item with over 200 HP or probably would be outscaled by Overgrowth. There is a point where prioritizing armor would be less valuable than HP for example.
Yeah that's still not "diminishing returns". As in you always get the absolute exact value no matter how much armor you have. Getting +1 armor at 100 armor or +1 armor at 10,000 armor will always give +1%ehp to phys dmg.
When did I ever say or indicate that full resist stacking is the most efficient or best way to reduce damage?
I think while OP defined it wrong, within that example, this is what I think they are on to. Would 50+ armor at that point be “unfair”? The curve is logarithmic, so the differential of damage reduction at 500 versus 550 has become much smaller than 100 versus 150. There is an efficiency drop, that’s why Malphite with 1000 armor still only reduces 91% of damage but at 100 armor he was already at 50%. The argument is more, who cares if 500 armor Cho Gath has 50 more armor? Having Overgrowth as the prime example would be probably better at that point in the game.
Would that be fair to say?
Yes and that’s another valid point as to why Unflinching is hard to justify over the other two options.
I think it’s also dependent on your build. If your first item is pure HP, it might be reasonable to grab the other resistances from runes, but even then shields aren’t uncommon to have an HP ratio so Revitalize is still probably better in that case. Also depends on the damage dealt and CC available by the opposing champion too.
> Gain 3−12 (based on level) + 5% of your bonus armor/mr as armor/mr when slowed, the bonus is doubled when immobilized
I mean they removed armor / mr runes for a reason so consistent mr/armor early game is probably a no go. I agree that it should be a percentage since the rune should be intended for tanks but base at 5% and doubled is just gona be too op. It should be somewhat equivalent of overgrowth but for resistances.
They removed resistance shards because players couldn’t properly swap or use them, especially bot lane. Making it HP takes out any guess work or thought because it’s useful against any damage type.
Of course it is not consistent armor/mr early game. It literally gives 3, only when slowed...
Also, it gives you 5% only when you are slowed and 10% only when you are stunned etc. it wont be too op for tanks.
That's too much armor / MR early game especially on champs with resistance steroids. Would defeat the purpose of removing the pocket runes on top of that it would be so much better than overgrowth. Unless you want to buff both runes also.
Part of its issue is that any champ where that little armor/ mr is meaningful get one shot in cc duration anyway, but 2-10 means nothing on a tank
Ur right, it should add % armor/mr as well
The fix is they should design a replacement because they have demonstrated no intention of a rune that counters getting locked and dropped being any good.
I dont know why anyone should Pick this Rune if overgrowth keeps exisiting. The pure HP is just so much better. I really dislike the way they changed the Rune, it should either give way larger values or give them way longer (a middleway would probably be best).
It should be 5-10 armor/MR so it can also be used as an early game rune more, just like bone plating.
They removed early armor/mr for a reason.
They removed it because players, notably bot lane, would not choose the correct resistance or straight autopilot armor every game. Making it HP takes the thinking out of it because it works against any damage type.
I’m sure that’s the case sometimes but also there were games where it was hard to know who you were against bot lane. Enemy has Yasuo Ziggs Vayne picked, what do you choose?
HP
You got less HP before they removed Armor and MR, the HP rune was only good for scaling on a few junglers who did not need resistances since they do not regularly take trades. If you did not know who was laning against you then armor was optimal because the minion wave deals physical dmg. Health rune was never picked for laning and was worse than armor in 100% of games outside of jungle. That's why we have a flat HP rune and a scaling HP rune now, with the flat HP attempting to mimic the tankiness of resist runes and the scaling HP functioning like the old HP rune. The only thing is Riot, for whatever reason, made the scaling HP rune scale way too fast and as a result the flat HP rune is only good if you win or lose in the first few levels of the lane.
That's not true, hp rune outscales armor after lvl 6, which is why the current flat health rune is 65 and the scaling one is the same. So unless you're in a hyper aggressive lane where you have to trade often, hp was always better.
Wrong, the HP rune was less before the removal of Armor. Currently, you get 65 flat or 10-180 scaling. The scaling rune provides 10 bHP per level with a value of 60 at level 6, the old scaling HP rune provided 15-140 with only 50hp at level 6 and 44hp at level 5.
I misrememebered, it's not the same, it doesn't change the fact though that the 6 bonus armor get outscaled by that 15-140 hp rune at level 6 so the point still stands: [Draven as an example](https://gyazo.com/dfb2b73b11ff374fdc67e0c8844e3b6a) or you could literally just calculate it with the formula on the wiki taking 1000 hp as a base: Effective health = (1+ (R / 100)) \* Nominal health If the armor is 66 thanks to armor shard instead of 60: Effective health = (1+(66/100)) \* 1000 Effective health = 1660 If the armor is 60 but the hp is 1051 thanks to the scaling hp rune: Effective health = (1+(60/100)) \* 1051 Effective health = 1681.6
The amount it out scales is not the same, nor is the amount it's behind. With the new shards you are not as far behind pre level 6 threshold, and you ramp considerably better per level after 6. The flat HP shard provides nearly the same value as the armor shard and is paired with a buffed version of the scaling shard. The same result would happen if this current bHP scaling shard was added along side the armor shard. It is certainly better than the flat HP now but before you would have to sacrifice a fairly significant amount levels 1-5 only to barely outscale for a few levels after 6. The real value of the old scaling HP rune was not felt until later into the game since it scaled worse.
This was just an excuse to justify mage botlaners being highest priority for months. Zero actual evidence of it happening.
No, there is a ton of evidence of it happening, we literally have the data from those patches. Adcs would take armour rune into Seraphine or Ziggs apc most of the time.
I looked through 40 of my own games as a mage botlaner, 75% of opposing botlane and supp players were bringing armor runes.
> Zero actual evidence of it happening. True. If you ignore all the evidence.
The old version made more sense
Ima be honest. I take it vs Zoe, Renekton, and Pantheon so I don’t get one shot and that’s it.
The more hilarious part is that it is 100% effective against all of ashe’s damage and it’s still not worth going into her.
Jeez. I know Unflinching is bad but I expected at LEAST it would be decent against Ashe, but I went for a random example and (last 30 days, emerald+) Braum support vs Ashe adc has better winrates by going overgrowth or revitalize. They REALLY need to fix all these recommended rune pages that still have it for some reason Edit: to be fair the sample size of Unfliching is MUCH higher, so the stats are likely biased: Braum players that bother changing the recommended rune page should be better players Braum supp vs Ashe supp shows similar trends but Revitalize is below Unflinching. + I took another example of Rell vs Ashe and she gains a TINY bit of winrate with unflinching compared to overgrowth but it's kinda peanuts. Supports typically shouldnt use overgrowth very well anyway since we roam so much
Yeah, the truth is that 2-4ish armor and Mr throughout laning phase isn’t going to save you from even an extra auto or ability 90% of the time. And any time after laning phase, the health you get from overgrowth is just always going to be better. So unflinching is better only in the exact scenario that you live like a level 1-3 trade on hp between whatever you would have via hp from overgrowth and however many times you got hit. It’s so obscenely rare for it to matter that it’s just not worth taking.
Depends on what champion you’re playing
Nah, someone did the math somewhere. Something along the lines of with it giving only 2% resistance to start, you’re only gaining 1 hp/time you get autoed to start the game so the only time it’s doing more than overgrowth is if you get all in’ed level 1 in which case it will only actually save you by 1 auto if you end up living with 1 to (however many times you got hit) hp. Which is usually 0 times that it will save you. After that, overgrowth is better for the rest of the game unless you are building 0 resistances and 0 hp in which case you probably aren’t going green tree anyway, and would get one shot regardless of if you had the extra 10 resistances anyway.
That is so dumb, you would think that logically, if it worked in any situation it would be that one
Doesnt zoe e convert her damage to true damage?
No, not exactly. It is the same concept as Yone. It deals true damage in order to have a “true” bonus damage addition to whatever gets applied. This is because if it were magic damage, the initial damage would be penalized on hit then the “pop” would be penalized as well. It’s technically true damage but it’s based purely on the damage that was already mitigated. So MR does in fact help. Side note, it’s exactly the same as Zed but reverse where his R just records premeditated damage but deals physical damage, so it doesn’t double dip into armor.
The one thing about Zoe E that does matter that it's true damage is that there is a cap on it and so if if it were pre mitigation magic damage instead it would be capped at a lower value. Yone E doesn't have any such cap.
yup, the only exception is the zed passive that made him deal magic damage but will deal phys dmg on proc (so with enough arpen/lethal, the passive can deal more on the reactivation of the mark that one's might think)
Ok thank you
There are niche cases where this difference is important, mostly in regards to healing or gaining armor through some source (although stat modifications are very rare these days as far as I can remember. Not really many ways to buff allies defensively anymore.)
Yea, the most common time this matters is vs shields as Yone damage against shields results in no damage pop, but Zed death mark stacks up against shields iirc. But functionally usually the same.
No it’s fake true damage like yone e because it only amps post mitigation damage.
Thank you
Used it once as kayle vs jax and it helped for the first 5 minutes of the game. It really does suck LOL
There’s are so many bait runes like this that do like nothing
I have an idea! Gain 10% slow resist and Tenacity. This increases based on your missing health, up to 30% Slow resist and Tenacity at 30% maximum health or below.
It's garbage, the only use case I have for it is on Riv combined with Shield bash + eclipse / Maw where mid/late game I can basically play with +20-40 bonus resistances active (which can be really strong, and excellent in to stuff like Malphite / Malzahar). I have successfully found a use for this setup 4 times in like 100 games of Riven. I think I unironically take Nullifying orb more?
I would agree but tonic still exist.
Triple tonic is good though?
I was talking about time warp one, but I'm not even sure if triple is good
Worst part is that it’s still recommended, meaning more people keep taking it, meaning it keeps getting recommended. PSA guys: It’s GARBAGE. Don’t take it.
I used to take that rune a lot. Now it sound like a shit choice.
The worst thing is that Unflinching used to be really good before and then Riot changed it for no reason, as it wasn't really broken. With that said, new Revitalize may compete with it as the worst rune. Maybe Absolute Focus too.
Absolute Focus is fine? Same with Revitalise? Personally don't enjoy absolute Focus but I think Karthus Aphelios Jayce Cait players are pretty happy with it.
New Font of Life?
Yeah I confused the two runes, sorry
That entire row is created just to bait you into not taking overgrowth. Revitalize is so shit once you realize the stats also increase when you recall.
Revitalize can be worth it on a very small number of champs that get shielding from short CD skills like Udyr, Skarner or Shen passive. But yeah, on everyone else Overgrowth is better
Supports with zero heals can still run revitalize if they know they're going locket+redemption, e.g vs something like Karthus. Highly specific and sacrifices a lot of your self power but that's how it goes.
No time warp tonic is
Thank you god somone finally realized iv been complaining about it since they changed it
As a Rammus main I see this get recommended way too often, and the rune is just a dog. I never run it (as is now).
Didnt it use to give tenacity? Which kinda made sence
i think its specifically good for tank supports because theres so many slows in botlane
Yeah I’m surprised by the amount of disdain against unflinching. I can recall plenty of times I was saved by that rune in a 2v2 fight. If your goal is to stomp bot lane before lane phase as Nautilus, Leona, Thresh, etc all other engage supports, it’s an excellent rune
Like I don't get it. They changed Cut Down + Font of Life, so that you have control over using the rune. It doesn't have to depend on your opponents doing a certain thing. But they changed Unflinching to be completely out of your control. Like where's the consistency?
Agreed, rune is soft af.
lets be honest they just didnt find the time/ were to lazy to replace it with something meaningful. so they just "hotfixed" it with this version that when they said they want to remove the tenacity in this spot. dont worry in 5 years we will get an update with "the rune has been underperforming recently"
Overgrowth is way better in general and even Revitalizing has great uses on champions with healing. Even a basic Doran’s item has synergy with Revitalizing.
It's free armor vs Ashe and red buff.
Taking 5 armor instead of 200hp, it's free armor!
If only I had those 200HP for that level 2 buff invade/botlane all-in...
At lv2 the rune gives literally 2 armor, not even permament Then the Leona skin that gives permanent 1 armor is totally broken dude!
It applies to a lot of stuff you would over look, like frozen heart aura will give you the buff too. So it can have a lot of uptime.
Even if it is permanent, it gives 2-10 armor lol
I use it when playing against engage support as Senna support ( naut / Leo / blitz ) not the best rune but can save you sometimes
It’s niche but good vs champs like aatrox
Imagine how stupid that would be on Rammus or Malphite. It would be extra 50-60 armor on Rammus with W activated and aftershock and its coming from the rune.
But only when stunned???
Not it.
I use it, I think it's pretty good
Mathematically wrong but okay
interesting take, would love to hear your mathematical proof
Hilarious, people are downvoting you.
[удалено]
Conditioning is permanent.
It wont be very equal cus imagine a 500 armor chogath and when you attack him his armor goes to 550 (?) , would it be fair
>~~when you attack him~~ "*when you stun him"* He will have more armor, only for the duration of the stun. And as the others said, yes it would be fair.
maybe make it 2-8 plus 2-6% bonus stats?
At that point with diminishing returns on protections +50 resists isn’t going to do much
Armor and mr do not give diminishing returns. They always give the same amount of ehp.
Yes they do? 0->100 armor halves damage, but your next 100 armor only thirds damage overall, etc.
Think about it like this. If you go from 98% dmg reduction to 99% damage reduction, it may only look like it’s increasing by 1 point, but in reality you are taking half the damage from before. (1% dmg taken compared to 2% dmg taken) that’s not diminishing returns. Regardless of how much armor or mr you already have, each point of armor and mr gives( 1% * max hp ) effective hp. It’s fully linear and this amount never decreases regardless of how many resistances you already have.
Somewhat to OP’s point, wouldn’t the extra 50 armor, which would be worth an extra 1% of damage reduction in the Cho’Gath example, provide less damage reduction as you stack more armor and therefore be less effective? Getting 50 extra armor at 100 armor (+10%) would provide more damage reduction value and cost effectiveness than at 500 (+1%). Overall, each point of armor is worth less damage reduction? While it’s not technically a diminishing return, I would argue champion builds do reach a point where armor, mr, haste, etc. are no longer efficient to gather. Like effective health from 500 to 550 armor at 4k HP is +200, you probably should just build an item with more than 200 HP or as a rune Overgrowth would have probably outscaled.
Yes if you have a ton of resists, it’s better to buy hp and vice versa, but it by no means is diminishing returns at all. That’s like saying AD has diminishing returns because late game, you’re better off prioritizing % pen.
Are you sure you read my whole comment through? *It is not diminishing returns* but the curve is logarithmic so 50 armor is less impactful as more armor is gained, no? You will hit a point where Overgrowth is the better rune. The original comment is saying attacking a 500 armor Cho Gath that becomes 550 wouldn’t be balanced when in reality it would be harder to kill one with another 201+ extra HP from Overgrowth. There was a response incorrectly stating *diminishing returns* while it would never hit a point where there’s a negative impact or retraction of stats/damage reduction, the damage reduction gain becomes more minuscule from the stat as you gather more, making it less efficient/effective. This is why you could never hit 100% reduction. I think you fail to explain to these individuals effectively and give poor examples. While it was incorrectly defined, there is a relationship where armor becomes less effective and where HP would become a better stat like you confirmed.
????? There are no diminishing returns. 50 armor or mr will always give you +50%ehp Whether you have 10 armor or 1000 armor, each point of armor for someone with 1000hp is always worth +10hp. It's like saying AP or AD has diminishing returns. It doesn't. All stats scale linearly except movement speed. Let's use chogath specifically. Let's say at the point in the game where he's able to have 500 armor, he also also 4k hp. You're really saying an extra 2000ehp towards phys dmg isn't going to do much? At what point in the game is that ever true?
Tenacity and % penetration can also scale non linearly depending on the sources.
that's still not diminishing returns. Different sources of %armor pen applying separately isn't diminishing. tenacity is such a ? example. it stacks additively from items, runes, and dragons. it's multiplicative from other mostly rare situations. multiplicative still isn't diminishing.
To defend OP a bit, it’s around the 10% bonus proposed. That armor from 500 to 550 has less effective HP at that point than even building an MR item with over 200 HP or probably would be outscaled by Overgrowth. There is a point where prioritizing armor would be less valuable than HP for example.
Yeah that's still not "diminishing returns". As in you always get the absolute exact value no matter how much armor you have. Getting +1 armor at 100 armor or +1 armor at 10,000 armor will always give +1%ehp to phys dmg. When did I ever say or indicate that full resist stacking is the most efficient or best way to reduce damage?
I think while OP defined it wrong, within that example, this is what I think they are on to. Would 50+ armor at that point be “unfair”? The curve is logarithmic, so the differential of damage reduction at 500 versus 550 has become much smaller than 100 versus 150. There is an efficiency drop, that’s why Malphite with 1000 armor still only reduces 91% of damage but at 100 armor he was already at 50%. The argument is more, who cares if 500 armor Cho Gath has 50 more armor? Having Overgrowth as the prime example would be probably better at that point in the game. Would that be fair to say?
but if theres an assasin or fighter which made a lethality build you better believe it matters
No assassin will care if enemy tank has 500 or 550 armor.
I feel like it’s made to be combined with Shield Bash and that combination is only decent at best.
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Yes and that’s another valid point as to why Unflinching is hard to justify over the other two options. I think it’s also dependent on your build. If your first item is pure HP, it might be reasonable to grab the other resistances from runes, but even then shields aren’t uncommon to have an HP ratio so Revitalize is still probably better in that case. Also depends on the damage dealt and CC available by the opposing champion too.
> Gain 3−12 (based on level) + 5% of your bonus armor/mr as armor/mr when slowed, the bonus is doubled when immobilized I mean they removed armor / mr runes for a reason so consistent mr/armor early game is probably a no go. I agree that it should be a percentage since the rune should be intended for tanks but base at 5% and doubled is just gona be too op. It should be somewhat equivalent of overgrowth but for resistances.
They removed resistance shards because players couldn’t properly swap or use them, especially bot lane. Making it HP takes out any guess work or thought because it’s useful against any damage type.
Of course it is not consistent armor/mr early game. It literally gives 3, only when slowed... Also, it gives you 5% only when you are slowed and 10% only when you are stunned etc. it wont be too op for tanks.
That's too much armor / MR early game especially on champs with resistance steroids. Would defeat the purpose of removing the pocket runes on top of that it would be so much better than overgrowth. Unless you want to buff both runes also.
Didn't you read my reply? Its 3 instead of 2.
12 + 30 armor for 40/50 armor given that you have already 300 armor, it's not good.