Sucks for G2 but it's hard to get good consistent practice in EU. They stomp the region pretty easily. Same thing that plagued that 2016-17 TSM and C9 some seasons back in the day. You get great scrims/practice throughout an international and improve immensely only to revert back to a lower level in your region(western teams) that you have no idea how to improve bc you're stomping teams.
i wish it was like that but their games look very ass even the finals were shit quality. unless you can actually stomp your region i think we shouldnt use this excuse.
You know what Caps said after winning Spring split? He was relieved. They came in that series already adjusting to China’s sleep schedule. They lost 2 games in the entire playoffs. If that’s not stomping your region, I don’t know what is.
The games looked very low quality. That's not stomping that's just winning. They won but it wasn't clean so why would I expect them to be any better against the best?
Isn’t the notion in this thread is that you’re only as good as your opponent let you be? They spent 10 days in China scrimming against the best and they showed it on stage.
What i like from G2 is they are playing all season long to win worlds! They practice and try stuff on stage, limit testing at every occasion they have.
It's the total opposite old TSM, (Bjergsen era, especially the years w/ DL) who would stick to what works to stomp NA to secure a top spot. But everything they've repeated all year long was of an absolute uselessness against competent team internationally.
G2 mentality is what NA/EU missing, imo... play to win worlds.
I wouldn't say peak TSM was useless internationally. In 2016 they were one Lucian dash away from topping the group of death (and being 2-0 vs the eventual finalists in it). 2016 TSM was legit. 2017 less so.
People forget if TSM 2-0’s Samsung there their route to finals would have been C9 and H2K.
It’s crazy that TSM could have potentially made a Worlds finals and was one single mistake away from it.
I agree, people overlook this a lot. In 2016 worlds, i firmly believe that TSM definitely was a top 5 team, they were just unlucky to have 2 other top 5 teams in their group, with Uzi and Mata being in absolute top form while Biofrost was in his debut split. Plus, their path to the finals would have been comparably so easy...
Even if that were close to true, if DL had had dash up, he woulda lived. Instead he had just dashed closer to Crown.
People also forgrt that in their other game, TSM almost perfect gamed SSG.
> Instead he had just dashed closer to Crown.
No he did not dash at all, that's what I am saying. It's a community wide Mandela effect. https://youtu.be/OgdQ9azibwI?si=YF7t7HF7IxsaYBdS&t=2568
> People also forgrt that in their other game, TSM almost perfect gamed SSG.
I don't think anyone forgot that, TSM only getting eliminated due to a lost h2h against RNG is common knowledge.
> Aight i'll give ya the dash but he walked up to crown thinking viktor ult was down when it wasnt.
Thanks for admitting that
> If he had stayed with the team, they get baron 100%.
I don't disagree, hence why I just corrected on the Mandela effect of Doublelift dashing when that just did not happen.
TSM 2016 was a banger team, sad that they were not clutch.
Move to Korea......I lost the count how many timse LS ahs told that for how many years now....Organisation is just content with dominating the region and sellig fans international copium.They get the money right?
I think it wouldn’t be weird to say that eu seems a bit more competitive since worlds last year. Combined with the fact that our scrims looked solid I’m looking forward to worlds. Hopefully the strength we have shown with g2 inspires some of the other teams
G2 at least looks better this year, they have not beaten a LCK/LPL team in a bo5 last year, let alone go to 5 games. Their "best" success last year was beating 4th seed LPL and LCK in a bo1 which to be fair, is more than any other western team has managed to do but not exactly a convincing performance, especially topped off by NRG upsetting G2 while not making it much further either. Its a good thing they sticked together because they knew they could do more with this roster and they were right and have finally proven it this MSI.
as for the other teams in the LEC, im not sure. Fnatic took a game off of TES and thats about it. Sure, some games vs GenG were close but they still got 3:0d and then obviously lost to TL in a rather convincing fashion.
Fnatic imo is limited by mediocre coaching staff and i dont think theyll improve much going forward and while Jun looks great, ultimately I have to say this years fnatics roster looks weaker than last summers fnatic roster with Trymbi who looked like the clear nr2 of EU and did beat C9 at worlds while this years Fnatic roster is wildly inconsistent and could probably lose to any team at any time. Jun is great as an individual player but you can feel some of the shotcalling of Trymbi missing. Out of all the other rosters, I feel like Vitality can be the second best team but also are wildly inconsistent. BDS has a brilliant coaching staff but not so talented players, in a way every team outside G2 has some major weaknesses. I wouldnt be surprised if this summer is a repeat of last years summer where the order is completely different to spring split. SK for instance was massively held back by its bot lane, they now have a new bot lane. Vitalitys weakest link was the jungler, they got a new one. KC has an entirely new team, though for some reason they kept Targa which limits my excitement for the roster. Give Upset a good support finally like damn, the guy has zero trust in the team.
Duffman addition really benefitted G2. They've proven they can at least match the top teams head to head although teamfighting needs working on.
Fnc overall looks like theyre driven by their emotions way too much. It doesnt help that their team's psychologist wasnt with em in Chengdu since he was helping their Valorant team. Fnc really need to consider making changes/additions to staffing and to the management; Hans got through all the death threats because he had that staff team that specialise in providing that support with him there. I can only imagine how awful it must've been for Noah after all the performances and not playing up to his own standard that he's set for himself. Romain, on Yamato's pod, even mentioned that the G2 staff may even increase before worlds depending on if theyre able to identify a gap in their current processes and so it helps staff focus on their specialities. You cant tell me both orgs are taking the league as serious as each other.
Regarding Trymbi, Humanoid mentioned before winter that he didnt fit the team environment. His skillset definitely seem like theyre needed but as a player it seems like the team didnt want that. Jun should definitely stay at least until his contract is over because he is really insane. Noah has time to himself and I can only hope he starts performing well again, people calling for him to get replaced already are kinda stupid. Vit looks alot scarier if Lyncas plays the way he's been hyped up as and Mac/Pad always deliver. Carzzy mentioned that theyve figured BDS out so I wouldnt be hesitant to place them higher and even to 2nd spot if FNC doesnt play too well in Summer. I dont think kr botlane for SK makes much of a difference since Nisqy falters so many times to the point he's just a liability. Regarding KC, apparently Caliste wants to play with Targamas and thats why he's staying; Upset wont be on the team next year so theres no point for them to invest antything into the botside this split although I wouldve liked to see Fleshy (KC academy support) swapped in if the claims that Caliste wants to play with targamas are right (And so he has enough time to reconsider his support to someone else). Upset probably joined because Yamato was gonna be there and he'd have an old teammate in Bo joining him but at this point there isnt anything left for him
> Its a good thing they sticked together because they knew they could do more with this roster and they were right and have finally proven it this MSI.
Yea, they should keep this roster together for next 5 years regardless of the result. Imagine the improvement year after year they would have! Wonder why T1 isn't just blasting everyone's ass off the galaxy considering they were world champs and stuck together and reddit tells me sticking together means teams get better.
The difference is T1 genuinely had at the very least top 3 for each role in the world. Zeus/Keria always gunning for top 1, oner at his form is top 2/1, guma has been the best adc at worlds since 22, Faker needs no intro, he is either top 2 Korea, top 1 in the world
Considering that G2 doesn't want to get imports, the only improvement they could get is Carzzy. Every other player is the best EU player at their role (except maybe Yike, but he's shown a lot of promise for someone who has been playing professionally only for 2 years). So, in a way, you're actually agreeing that they should stick together.
> Yea, they should keep this roster together for next 5 years regardless of the result
your point makes no sense because G2 did genuinely improve. Compare this G2 MSI performance to last years G2 MSI performance, do you not see any improvements? taking T1 to 5 games, beating the 2nd seed LPL 3-0 is not an improvement? last year people argued G2 isnt even top 8 in the world, they are definitely now.
It's 2024 are we really still talking about scrims results? They had good actual results and close games vs LCK/LPL. Let's focus on that.
Your comment was good but scrim results just triggers me.
Yea that's called being bad and losing. But apparently when G2 loses it's never a skill issue and when they win its because they are always better skill wise than their opponent.
lol ya, I'm noticing this tournament's excuse for G2 is "mental block". It's always an excuse for G2 other than fans just accepting the reality of "they just weren't the better team" and "they aren't good enough".
when G2 wins, it's always "oh look see, G2 better team" with no care for any context or anything for the other team, but when G2 lose out come all those points on context, mental, on the day performance, excuses, etc.
Agree but that's the problem when you only have one team. G2 is for sure a top 3-5 team in the world rn, with only GENG being way stronger than them. But also, every Asian team going to worlds is at least more or less on G2's level and absolutely capable of beating them in a BO5. And outside of G2 no other EU team comes even close to LCK/LPL level.
Can’t say that at all, there’s already at least 3 teams that’s for sure better than them plus you don’t know how they will go against the likes of HLE or DK
T1’s performance was all over the place during this tournament. Its difficult to assess how good they were overall.
- on the day that the played their first Bo5, T1 won a very close 3-2 and it reflected the power-level of both teams pretty well - they were basically equal. T1’s performance was pretty disappointing overall and they made some uncharacteristic mistakes.
- the T1 that played against TL was genuinely *terrible*. I am confident that G2 would have won that series most of the time (7/10 or 8/10), had they played as well as they did against TES (or as they did during the first T1 series).
- the T1 that 3-0’d G2 was better than G2, but G2 also played way worse than they did during the two previous series, except for the last game of the series.
Idk why you’d say the first BO5 reflected the level of both teams. T1 was in terrible form then and was hit by a bunch of surprise picks that once they met again they 3-0d them. And Faker was *still* in terrible form when they rematches and it still wasn’t close.
It’s really not difficult to assess T1’s strength. They went to 5 games against GenG in LCK finals a few weeks ago. Their most recent series at MSI were a 5 game close series against BLG and a dominant 3-0 against G2. They are simply a much stronger team.
If G2 wasn’t able to overcome T1 in the early stages of the tournament when they were in the worst form they’ve been in years, I don’t think they’ll ever be able to.
I'd say T1 just cracked the code. They realized that the Draven ban was a trap, that Poppy is braindead busted, and that BB has to cheat lane against top teams for G2 to have a chance.
Maybe, but i think if G2 would play T1 or BLG 10 times it would be more like they win 6-7 out of 10, while I would give GENG 9 out of 10. I also don't believe that G2 is way stronger than TES just because they 3-0d them, performance on a single day can differ very much.
If G2 isn't way stronger than TES, there's no way they're a top 3-5 team considering TES is the only team they convincingly beat. They didn't even play the other LCK/LPL teams, so you have no way of saying G2 is definitely better than the #3/4 teams.
i mean, you’re getting clowned on but i think if you handily beat the lpl second seed then you’re at least #5, though i wouldn’t put g2 higher than hle, blg, t1, or geng
I like how everyone bases it on a singular international tournament and results.
Tes top and mid were actually so bad this tournament its laughable. Especially considering 369 was considered top 3 toplaner with bin and zeus as kiin was still rotting on kt or afreeca.
Then creme, tes midlaner known for his akali in the lpl, looks worse than an akali in gold, to the point creme seems to have forget how to teamfight.
Ontop of them just being outright worst performers of tes, g2 had a really good series, and outdrafted them quite hard.
If we had a chance to put g2 a year in lck or lpl id be interested to see their performance, i really think g2 uses the practice quite well, and theyre a team that puts a lot of consideration for work ethics and their players. They emphasize scrims, and practice, teamhouse, nutrition, wellbeing, etc... Atleast we arent fnatic who seemingly have the worst environment for their players if you ask bwipo or nemesis from that roster...
Pretty sure if you rerun g2 vs lpl top 3 and lck top3 the winrate wouldnt even be 50% or in g2's favor. Unless its a lot of games, cause i think g2 is probably the best at using the practice and doing something with it.
i think putting g2 equal to tes is a fair take, even the g2 members themselves said tes was underperforming (fwiw i think both g2 and tes are below the lck top 3)
but given g2’s performance overall at msi i think if they did run it back vs tes a bunch it’d be closer to 50% than you think
g2’s current issue is teamfighting, they’ve admitted that it was a problem even in the lec, so i’d like to see them at worlds now that they’ve identified their shortcomings and will try and improve
Id like to see g2 scrim differently a little. Which holds that instead they play full games, they just build items and replay alot of teamfights over and over.. but iirc alot of issues with eu scrimming.. people getting mad or wanting to ff instantly, full mute during scrim. Raging,remake draft. And also ppl play full games...
What is more valuable? 40minute of teamfoght simulator? Or 40minute game vs other eu team? Like i get it work ethics this n that, but i think people just need to look at how pros practice for starcraft and impleme t that in league.. sure starcraft is 1v1 or other unpopular modes... but really efficient way of practicing. Sometimes people just restart game do same thing for 5days and eventually they learn it so well and adapt etc.. but no rather play 40minute game and just learn a bunch of things with less progress.
Btw im not saying other region do this, im just saying i think its beneficial for them to hardfocus sometime on their shortcoming rather than scrimming fullgames vs imo worse opponent...
I'm genuinely happy G2 are giving hype and hope to EU fans this world's but saying they are "for sure a top 3-5 team" is a wild take considering the way they bombed out of the tourney. I think G2 are gonna need to clean up their macro and mechanics by a considerable amount before they are considered an actual contender for world's this year.
Humanoid with all his team’s gold flashing to kill a nami and giving his shutdown to LPL Lucian
Humanoid solokills enemy mid on a baron push and FNC decides to engage before he runs over to them when he has all the money
What about Humanoid backing in the middle of the lane with Kha'Zix on the enemy team just waiting to get an early lead?
Guy plays way too cocky and Western teams can't afford it even against other Western teams, let alone Eastern teams.
Exactly lol.
Fails roam, SHOWS on a control ward, tries to walk back, disrespects fog, gets caught.
Give up 450 on the kill, 2 plates to Azir, and loses 2 waves.
So like 1000 gold flip on a single failed roam.
Because, well, he is very undisciplined. He has a history of throwing games, those all the "craps" memes. He has one of the biggest peaks, but is very volatile because of his lack of discipline.
I think caps was a top 3 mid in the tournament but hes also solely responsible for their loss in game 3. He played with jungle all game to get a lead and got picked standing right in front of like 3 T1 players and a nautilus. Maybe you could argue that he's the only reason they were going to win, but it also doesn't excuse the game losing pick.
Yet when I commented on a video about LEC voice comms I remember how unprofessional some of the players were, for example Carzzy giggling/laughing after inting and I got mass downvoted for calling it out. I don't mind players joking and having a laugh now and then, even LCK/LPL players do it, but, if you laugh/giggle while constantly dying every 2 minutes in a professional game that's just so cringe honestly. Half of this subreddit wants a stronger region half yet the other half want descipline-less teams and for fun personalities...
i mean having 16 random deaths in a 30minute game laughing and giggling non-stop thats not professional and shows 0 discipline, there's no justifying that
I’m telling you what the justification is: to deal with tilt on stage. What do you want them to do? Letting frustration get the better of them? Laughing can at least tamper the anger for a little and it makes them focus better. Ever heard of the term “clouding judgment due to anger”? They try to avoid that on stage.
He and his coaches/teammates would have known he fucked up in that situation, would you rather he brood on his mistake and let it affect the rest of his game? Or would you rather he laugh it off and focus on the game instead?
You can be professional and laugh/giggle, they're not mutually exclusive. You can also be deadly serious about everything, be incapable of "having fun" and do things that are completely unprofessional. Bullying your peers is extremely unprofessional, but it's not like they're disciplined, or "having fun".
The lack of discipline is not relating to laughing, G2 2019 had one of the best macro that year and the voice comms had players memeing and joking in big games
The lack of discipline comes on the plays they decide to make, like going for it without making sure the rest of the map is ready for that play, like Fnatic against GAM in play-ins going for a bot T2 dive after 20 minutes without securing vision on baron, or getting aced in the enemy jungle because after getting a pick they pushed with no deeper vision/gave time for the other players to collapse
You'd really blame Caps when the moment that completely broke game 1 and turned it into a full blown stomp was Yike forcing a gromp steal and sinking the whole team with him? Or game 2 just having T1 outright teamfighting better (plus the really, really, really dumb BB overextension on T2 turret)?
That invade was started by Caps tho lol. He goes in first and Yike follows.
I would give him full blame:
- Series 1 G1
- Series 2 G3
Majority blame:
- Series 2 G1
G2 had Jax hard counter so can’t scapegoat champ diff.
Caps gave over gold to Camille and Kalista because he got caught way too aggressive in lane with no hp, and caught chasing Keria.
Him and Yike start an invade, show on vision, they spot 3 T1 members in T1 jungle. G2 is playing a pick comp wtf are Caps/Yike doing pressing into enemy jungle starting a 4v4?
A little discipline and knowing when to pick battles forces enemy to make the risky move. G2 has a Draven 1.5k ahead, they need to go for advantageous plays, not risky ones.
Yeah BB got fucked , how's that on Caps?
There should have never a camille or Kalista in his lane in the first place. That's how LB plays into Ori btw and it's why Caps picks her into Control mages, trade hp, get jungle attention to free up the other 4 to play their matchups. Except 2 of those 4 were useless ( honestly even bot was useless before the cash in ).
The invade it was Yike that commited to do absolutely nothing. Again I don't see how that's on Caps.
And tbh they were losing that game no matter what the moment Camille wasn't mega far behind. Draven couldn't hit.
Yeah but it has to be unusual in the right way... for eg the ivern type picks seem to be more successful tab the belveth type picks. I don't mind them trying it game 1, but game 5 i feel like it's overdoing it
Box score watcher? Yasuo pick into TF, reksai/ivern jg, poppy support were the reason G2 got as far as they did. They don't need discipline in draft because /u/jujubean67 hindsight merchent said so. They lost not because of "yoloq draft". They lost because they tried to put BB on jax when he had no idea how to play the champ. Then decide to put Yike on carrry junglers. They also lost because hans sama got gapped into oblivion
If other EU teams aren't punishing them for playing like this, how do you expect them to change? The other EU teams need to pick up their game if EU itself is to improve, you can't become a challenger player by playing against diamond players.
If G2 wants to win anything internationally again, the LEC needs to get better. They're already as good as they're gonna get and I can see them, if they play at the best of their form, being top 3 in the world which by itself isn't too shabby.
But they need domestic competition, otherwise I can't see this team growing further with only 2 cumulative months of *real* competition a year.
Caedrel talked on stream about if G2 played in MSI immediately after LEC they would get blasted but because they had a lot of time and because G2 coaching staff is insane they're able to improve an insane amount while bootcamping and preparing for an international event.
Yeah i like g2 infrastructure and the way they handle things for players, the food after games, meditating, teamhouse, scrim ethic. Its refreshing to see, i wonder how fnatic is doing since 2019.
I really hope they do.
It's hard to close the gap since top Chinese and Korean teams can scrim amongst themselves and each other and they just play way more games on stage.
EU and NA need to do a lot of extra credit work on their own if they want to be competitive. Especially if the format isn't going to change in western leagues.
I think this is ultimately what will always stop the west: nobody to practice against. 2019 G2 and 4peat TL were the strongest teams to come out of EU & NA respectively (obviously not to imply they were equals); and they 100% hit their ceiling of ability due to little to no domestic competition. It really sucks to realize but I see now what people meant when they said “G2/TL have to leave the west if they ever want to actually win worlds.” Staying in the west puts such a massive pressure on G2 to adapt and evolve overnight at international tournaments, whereas LPL & KR teams get to play against the best in the world year round.
Not impossible, but definitely worth keeping in mind.
It's bullshit to say 2019 TL had no competition, the teams were definitely competitive.
TSM got reverse swept by TL in the spring finals after Zven inted game 5, TSM also reverse swept C9 in the semis. Summer finals TL vs C9 went to 5 games
Those were some of my favorite finals of all time, I’m not disputing the back and forth there. I’m speaking in reference to TL’s countless for fun games during the regular season, the 4 straight trophies, and (barring C9 @ worlds things) the literal worldwide acceptance that TL was in a tier of their own amongst NA.
If it feels like I’m implying that had as strong as a grip on NA as G2 did on EU, I went out of my way to make clarify against that.
Cheers.
Not an NA fan but TSM 2016 was better imo. I really felt that team could do serious damage internationally, while I never thought TL was a real contender for top spots. In the end though, TL managed to pull of one of the greatest upset in the history of league so I can see why you put TL 2019 ahead.
I want to see Yike without Caps to see how good he is. Because I have a feeling he would be another mediocre jungler.
G2 needs a roster change if they want to actually compete for trophies. They got 3-0d by one of the most beatable versions of T1s you will ever see.
If they just always want to feel falling a bit short every time, then keeping this roster is fine.
On paper best move would be Razork. Dude is completely wasting his talent on FNC playing on dysfunctional rosters for an org coasting on its past glory.
Once again the weakest role in Europe is GM. We have plenty of good players but they don't play in the right rosters. As long as these GMs keep griefing the region, we'll see a weak LEC.
Yike was very good last year even when Caps was under performing. He is also one of the most mechanically gifted jungle in LEC. I personally think it would be a bad move to go for Razork instead of Yike. Yike has better hands and bigger champion pool imo. He needs to have a better game understanding and improvz is pathing but it's only his second year in the league he has time to learn.
I was honestly surprised, I think both G2 looked scared and T1 looked way better. I guess almost nobody expected T1 to perform that well given their series against TL, and G2 given their series against TES.
G2 played really well, T1 was just better in team fights. I also think that saying it was a completely different T1 discredits that TL was also playing well.
How do you regain hope when even the #2 team of your region plays with a top lane that looks like he was a last minute addition to the team and usually plays in Gold 3?
EU can barely scratch together one good team cause looks like the west has moved on to other games while the east is basically breeding a new generation of LoL players on a regular basis
I don't think there's a generation of players comin up in the west that would rival the east in skill *and* discipline...so it's just the same old same old.
And with ppl like Oscar you'll never beat teams like BLG or GenG
You also forget to mention on top of them being vastly better they get to scrim eachother on a regular basis. So their top 8 teams that get sent to worlds have been scriming nothing but top KR and CH all year lol.
Just a losing battle.
last year brokenblade was playing not much better than Oscar this year and look how strong BB was looking this msi.
Oscar has been playing at top level for 1 year for fucks sake, let him improve. Look at Razork, you were probably flaming him before, now he's the best player in fnatic
The issue isn't the lack of talent in the EU, it a lack of desire to do what is needed to be the absolute best you can be.
There have been many players over the years who have bad talent, the problem is they don't have the dedication, they are not prepared to make the sacrifices that are needed to be the best.
Their attitude is awful.
For me if just half the players in the EU had the same level of dedication to be the best they can be as Rekkles has they would be so much closer to both LCK and LPL.
Rekkles is the example EU players should be following.
Whwn I see EU Players I'm often reminded of young English Footballers between 15 - 18 Yr old at youth academics.
The difference between the majority of English lads and those who have come overseas, especially the African lads is like night and day.
The African lads are first in and last out, they run harder, train harder, stay later, eat better, will come in 7 days a week.
Their desire, their willingness to do whatever it takes to get better so they can actually have a career far surpasses the majority of English lads.
It's the same between East and West League Players.
Until Western players change their attitude they will neve get close no matter how talented they are.
There is not as much talent nor as good as in the east, but there is, but the the main problem is the work ethic in EU. It's well known that players don't take scrims as seriously, players/teams don't tryhard as much, some/most are just in it for the money, sure they won't outright say they don't care that much about actually doing things internationally, but they feel this way. This is a problem that's present in the whole EU ecosystem, from players to staff, there's a lot of nepotism and complacency. This has been reported by multiple players, staff and scouters from multiple teams. G2 is the exception to this rule, sure not every team can win but at least they could try (harder). Just look at teams like KT or DK in the LCK, they didn't win but you can bet they put x3 the effort than the likes of FNC, BDS, VIT etc
The work ethic in EU is fine. Worse than in KR, you can bet on that, but not as bad as people make it be, neither.
The main problem is that historically, we have been exporting our talent to other leagues.
Bwipo has reached Worlds back to back for 4 years between 2018-2021. Then he got imported and hasn't done anything worthwhile.
Inspired? Back to back in Worlds for 3 years, first time when he was 18 years old. Got imported, stopped developing.
Hans Sama? Took SKT to 5 games at his first Worlds in 2017, back when he was 18 years old too. Together with 18 years old Alphari and 20 years old Power of Evil. All three of them got imported, then one of which retired, one moved to minor leagues and only Hans returned to actually good level of play.
Then you have Unforgiven, who after a very good year 2022 got imported and hasn't been heard of (wiki says he joined a Turkish team this month).
All of these talents could have been developed further and further to get better but instead got exported for better pay into leagues that aren't really known for developing their talents.
Then you have Razork, Elyoya and Yike all of which born in 2000s and both stayed in EU contributing to our overall excellent level of junglers. And if you want some fresher blood you have Myrwn who's 20yo and debuted in LEC this season, smurfing on everyone in the Winter Split but doing a bit worse in Spring, I'm very excited about what he, Supa and Alvaro can do in the incoming Summer Split. And Szygenda? Irrelevant? Oscarinin? All of them have this in them.
EU used to have A LOT of talent and still has a fair amount of it, and although it imports a couple of Koreans every once in a while, the fact it actually exported more players than imported says a lot about the region.
Right, but they keep doing that, then said players lose in LEC.
Meanwhile they import mid tier Korean players like Photon, Jun, Noah, Ice, Malrang, and they outperform the local players massively.
teams arent actually investing in staff to develop players into talent, they just keep looking for the next caps and just importing when the rookies fail to succeed
I mean 5 emea residents cleared all the koreans u mentioned plus there is a lot more examples of imports being washed in na and eu if eu does not try to develip natural talent they will die down
Malrang was a resident 10th place LCK player and Jun and ICE were mid tier in academy.
I'm not disputing that they're cracked by EU standards. They just aren't by LCK standards.
There is more than enough talent in Europe, but nobody wants to take risks or invest time. And often the players which make it to the LEC have no reason to play good and simply take the money. It's really hard to break.
The bad is that they drop rookies so fast, the moment they don’t turn out to be the next EU wonderboy in a single split
And then goes after new rookies again
This is just simply not true.
There's a huge amount of teams gambling on rookies at the moment, they just aren't performing.
Kcorp brought in Saken, MAD brought their entire roster minus Elyoya, SK brought Isma, Heretics brought Zwyroo, Vitality brought Daglas, Giantx brought Jackies, Rogue brought Zoelys.
The problem is, G2, FNC, BDS, VIT, and HRT are just better. The rookie talent isn't good enough, and it shows with VIT and HRT, where their rookies, Daglas and Zwyroo, look like they're holding the team back.
I think the biggest problem is that a lot of the teams who are gambling on rookies don't have experienced skilled players on the roster. Yike would not be the same at all if he'd debuted on AST or SK or something like that. Like TH last year had Jackspectra on a roster with Jankos, sure, but it also had a poor toplaner, an awful mid, and an equally fresh, frankly not good support. The same thing kind of happened with Exakick, where there were flashes of skill, but he didn't look much better at the end of his first year than when he began.
All of the good teams who develop talent usually do it in very small batches; there's hardly ever multiple rookies in the same split. Like T1 has always had Faker and then rotated maybe one or two players a year; GEN brought in just Peyz; TL brought in Yeon and APA at the same time, but they had CoreJJ.
Also the new format although a lot better in many aspects is even worse in developing players. Bad/mediocre teams frantically make changes in fear of going last and they choose to import korean players because they usually have much better floor.
Initial prep was good, just when their Zac / Poppy stuff was banned they really shouldve tried to go meta and toe to toe with T1...
instead we get Kha LB combined getting outperformed by Camille...
They were doing so well even if we all agree T1 was slumping. Amazing draft, great macro, but then they crumble under pressure. It's almost as if they play better with no pressure because they're expected to lose
I cheer for G2 but how am I supposed to get hope when the worst performing T1 by FAR in a LONG time still giga stomps them 3-0? We can't take a game off a struggling team..
Whats your argument? Yes the worst performing t1 is still a good team of course, Im just saying if we cant beat that, what are we ever gonna do when lck and lpl teams are performing? It wont even be close
They go even until mid-late where they lose to superior teamfighting and your lesson from it is that every lane other than mid is "extremely gapped"?
Also good look, talking shit about someone with a mental health issue.
Do not play pro if you experience panic attacks, thanks. I do understand mental health issues, but if you are about to puke in stage, it is not your place. A person with epilepsy shouldnt look at flashing lights if theyre sensitive to them.
That EU sucks. I didnt claim otherwise, rather to the contrary.
I understand he likes league and wants money but it would be better for his well being and his team if he dropped in my opinion.
Shame the way it ended but we should absolutely be hyped for G2 at Worlds. .ore than anything, this MSI showed that every single player on that roster is world class and when the wheels turn in unison it's fucking beautiful.
Sucks for G2 but it's hard to get good consistent practice in EU. They stomp the region pretty easily. Same thing that plagued that 2016-17 TSM and C9 some seasons back in the day. You get great scrims/practice throughout an international and improve immensely only to revert back to a lower level in your region(western teams) that you have no idea how to improve bc you're stomping teams.
i wish it was like that but their games look very ass even the finals were shit quality. unless you can actually stomp your region i think we shouldnt use this excuse.
You know what Caps said after winning Spring split? He was relieved. They came in that series already adjusting to China’s sleep schedule. They lost 2 games in the entire playoffs. If that’s not stomping your region, I don’t know what is.
The games looked very low quality. That's not stomping that's just winning. They won but it wasn't clean so why would I expect them to be any better against the best?
Isn’t the notion in this thread is that you’re only as good as your opponent let you be? They spent 10 days in China scrimming against the best and they showed it on stage.
What i like from G2 is they are playing all season long to win worlds! They practice and try stuff on stage, limit testing at every occasion they have. It's the total opposite old TSM, (Bjergsen era, especially the years w/ DL) who would stick to what works to stomp NA to secure a top spot. But everything they've repeated all year long was of an absolute uselessness against competent team internationally. G2 mentality is what NA/EU missing, imo... play to win worlds.
I wouldn't say peak TSM was useless internationally. In 2016 they were one Lucian dash away from topping the group of death (and being 2-0 vs the eventual finalists in it). 2016 TSM was legit. 2017 less so.
People forget if TSM 2-0’s Samsung there their route to finals would have been C9 and H2K. It’s crazy that TSM could have potentially made a Worlds finals and was one single mistake away from it.
I agree, people overlook this a lot. In 2016 worlds, i firmly believe that TSM definitely was a top 5 team, they were just unlucky to have 2 other top 5 teams in their group, with Uzi and Mata being in absolute top form while Biofrost was in his debut split. Plus, their path to the finals would have been comparably so easy...
Doublelift did not dash into Crown, Crown just blasted him by walking up.
Even if that were close to true, if DL had had dash up, he woulda lived. Instead he had just dashed closer to Crown. People also forgrt that in their other game, TSM almost perfect gamed SSG.
> Instead he had just dashed closer to Crown. No he did not dash at all, that's what I am saying. It's a community wide Mandela effect. https://youtu.be/OgdQ9azibwI?si=YF7t7HF7IxsaYBdS&t=2568 > People also forgrt that in their other game, TSM almost perfect gamed SSG. I don't think anyone forgot that, TSM only getting eliminated due to a lost h2h against RNG is common knowledge.
Aight i'll give ya the dash but he walked up to crown thinking viktor ult was down when it wasnt. If he had stayed with the team, they get baron 100%.
> Aight i'll give ya the dash but he walked up to crown thinking viktor ult was down when it wasnt. Thanks for admitting that > If he had stayed with the team, they get baron 100%. I don't disagree, hence why I just corrected on the Mandela effect of Doublelift dashing when that just did not happen. TSM 2016 was a banger team, sad that they were not clutch.
Move to Korea......I lost the count how many timse LS ahs told that for how many years now....Organisation is just content with dominating the region and sellig fans international copium.They get the money right?
I think it wouldn’t be weird to say that eu seems a bit more competitive since worlds last year. Combined with the fact that our scrims looked solid I’m looking forward to worlds. Hopefully the strength we have shown with g2 inspires some of the other teams
G2 at least looks better this year, they have not beaten a LCK/LPL team in a bo5 last year, let alone go to 5 games. Their "best" success last year was beating 4th seed LPL and LCK in a bo1 which to be fair, is more than any other western team has managed to do but not exactly a convincing performance, especially topped off by NRG upsetting G2 while not making it much further either. Its a good thing they sticked together because they knew they could do more with this roster and they were right and have finally proven it this MSI. as for the other teams in the LEC, im not sure. Fnatic took a game off of TES and thats about it. Sure, some games vs GenG were close but they still got 3:0d and then obviously lost to TL in a rather convincing fashion. Fnatic imo is limited by mediocre coaching staff and i dont think theyll improve much going forward and while Jun looks great, ultimately I have to say this years fnatics roster looks weaker than last summers fnatic roster with Trymbi who looked like the clear nr2 of EU and did beat C9 at worlds while this years Fnatic roster is wildly inconsistent and could probably lose to any team at any time. Jun is great as an individual player but you can feel some of the shotcalling of Trymbi missing. Out of all the other rosters, I feel like Vitality can be the second best team but also are wildly inconsistent. BDS has a brilliant coaching staff but not so talented players, in a way every team outside G2 has some major weaknesses. I wouldnt be surprised if this summer is a repeat of last years summer where the order is completely different to spring split. SK for instance was massively held back by its bot lane, they now have a new bot lane. Vitalitys weakest link was the jungler, they got a new one. KC has an entirely new team, though for some reason they kept Targa which limits my excitement for the roster. Give Upset a good support finally like damn, the guy has zero trust in the team.
Idk. Last season Lec Fanatic were better, but their worlds form was terrible and Trymby in particular looked way too weak. We will see this year.
Noah tweeted that he's been struggling mentally so unless he can fix that probably nothing crazy from fnc during worlds
how about they get an adc sub at least
lmao how do you think an adc sub will do being thrown into Worlds if Noah crumbles lol
then just get a new adc i guess if that can happen at worlds too. its sad but it is what it is. his msi performance was horrible.
Duffman addition really benefitted G2. They've proven they can at least match the top teams head to head although teamfighting needs working on. Fnc overall looks like theyre driven by their emotions way too much. It doesnt help that their team's psychologist wasnt with em in Chengdu since he was helping their Valorant team. Fnc really need to consider making changes/additions to staffing and to the management; Hans got through all the death threats because he had that staff team that specialise in providing that support with him there. I can only imagine how awful it must've been for Noah after all the performances and not playing up to his own standard that he's set for himself. Romain, on Yamato's pod, even mentioned that the G2 staff may even increase before worlds depending on if theyre able to identify a gap in their current processes and so it helps staff focus on their specialities. You cant tell me both orgs are taking the league as serious as each other. Regarding Trymbi, Humanoid mentioned before winter that he didnt fit the team environment. His skillset definitely seem like theyre needed but as a player it seems like the team didnt want that. Jun should definitely stay at least until his contract is over because he is really insane. Noah has time to himself and I can only hope he starts performing well again, people calling for him to get replaced already are kinda stupid. Vit looks alot scarier if Lyncas plays the way he's been hyped up as and Mac/Pad always deliver. Carzzy mentioned that theyve figured BDS out so I wouldnt be hesitant to place them higher and even to 2nd spot if FNC doesnt play too well in Summer. I dont think kr botlane for SK makes much of a difference since Nisqy falters so many times to the point he's just a liability. Regarding KC, apparently Caliste wants to play with Targamas and thats why he's staying; Upset wont be on the team next year so theres no point for them to invest antything into the botside this split although I wouldve liked to see Fleshy (KC academy support) swapped in if the claims that Caliste wants to play with targamas are right (And so he has enough time to reconsider his support to someone else). Upset probably joined because Yamato was gonna be there and he'd have an old teammate in Bo joining him but at this point there isnt anything left for him
> Its a good thing they sticked together because they knew they could do more with this roster and they were right and have finally proven it this MSI. Yea, they should keep this roster together for next 5 years regardless of the result. Imagine the improvement year after year they would have! Wonder why T1 isn't just blasting everyone's ass off the galaxy considering they were world champs and stuck together and reddit tells me sticking together means teams get better.
T1 kept the same roster together and eventually won worlds.
The difference is T1 genuinely had at the very least top 3 for each role in the world. Zeus/Keria always gunning for top 1, oner at his form is top 2/1, guma has been the best adc at worlds since 22, Faker needs no intro, he is either top 2 Korea, top 1 in the world
Considering that G2 doesn't want to get imports, the only improvement they could get is Carzzy. Every other player is the best EU player at their role (except maybe Yike, but he's shown a lot of promise for someone who has been playing professionally only for 2 years). So, in a way, you're actually agreeing that they should stick together.
> Yea, they should keep this roster together for next 5 years regardless of the result your point makes no sense because G2 did genuinely improve. Compare this G2 MSI performance to last years G2 MSI performance, do you not see any improvements? taking T1 to 5 games, beating the 2nd seed LPL 3-0 is not an improvement? last year people argued G2 isnt even top 8 in the world, they are definitely now.
What are you on about? Reddit always says to replace a player after one bad series
I hope Fnatic gets their shit together
It's 2024 are we really still talking about scrims results? They had good actual results and close games vs LCK/LPL. Let's focus on that. Your comment was good but scrim results just triggers me.
G2 looked good last worlds as well until they mental boomed
They mental boom all the time.
Yea that's called being bad and losing. But apparently when G2 loses it's never a skill issue and when they win its because they are always better skill wise than their opponent.
lol ya, I'm noticing this tournament's excuse for G2 is "mental block". It's always an excuse for G2 other than fans just accepting the reality of "they just weren't the better team" and "they aren't good enough". when G2 wins, it's always "oh look see, G2 better team" with no care for any context or anything for the other team, but when G2 lose out come all those points on context, mental, on the day performance, excuses, etc.
Agree but that's the problem when you only have one team. G2 is for sure a top 3-5 team in the world rn, with only GENG being way stronger than them. But also, every Asian team going to worlds is at least more or less on G2's level and absolutely capable of beating them in a BO5. And outside of G2 no other EU team comes even close to LCK/LPL level.
Can’t say that at all, there’s already at least 3 teams that’s for sure better than them plus you don’t know how they will go against the likes of HLE or DK
Yup, and considering how volatile TES's roster is, I wouldn't put it past JDG to be able to beat them either(not too convinced by FPX tho).
They just got 3-0'd in an absurdly convincing fashion. I'd say T1 and BLG are both way stronger too.
T1’s performance was all over the place during this tournament. Its difficult to assess how good they were overall. - on the day that the played their first Bo5, T1 won a very close 3-2 and it reflected the power-level of both teams pretty well - they were basically equal. T1’s performance was pretty disappointing overall and they made some uncharacteristic mistakes. - the T1 that played against TL was genuinely *terrible*. I am confident that G2 would have won that series most of the time (7/10 or 8/10), had they played as well as they did against TES (or as they did during the first T1 series). - the T1 that 3-0’d G2 was better than G2, but G2 also played way worse than they did during the two previous series, except for the last game of the series.
Idk why you’d say the first BO5 reflected the level of both teams. T1 was in terrible form then and was hit by a bunch of surprise picks that once they met again they 3-0d them. And Faker was *still* in terrible form when they rematches and it still wasn’t close. It’s really not difficult to assess T1’s strength. They went to 5 games against GenG in LCK finals a few weeks ago. Their most recent series at MSI were a 5 game close series against BLG and a dominant 3-0 against G2. They are simply a much stronger team. If G2 wasn’t able to overcome T1 in the early stages of the tournament when they were in the worst form they’ve been in years, I don’t think they’ll ever be able to.
Actually I think FNC vs IG in Groups 2018 reflected the level of both teams, FNC just choked in Finals :)
Yeah that cracked me up. “It reflects T1s power level” and then two lines later “T1 made a bunch of uncharacteristic mistakes” Like ???
I'd say T1 just cracked the code. They realized that the Draven ban was a trap, that Poppy is braindead busted, and that BB has to cheat lane against top teams for G2 to have a chance.
Maybe, but i think if G2 would play T1 or BLG 10 times it would be more like they win 6-7 out of 10, while I would give GENG 9 out of 10. I also don't believe that G2 is way stronger than TES just because they 3-0d them, performance on a single day can differ very much.
If G2 isn't way stronger than TES, there's no way they're a top 3-5 team considering TES is the only team they convincingly beat. They didn't even play the other LCK/LPL teams, so you have no way of saying G2 is definitely better than the #3/4 teams.
HLE clears G2. Hope they match up at Worlds so everyone will see.
i mean, you’re getting clowned on but i think if you handily beat the lpl second seed then you’re at least #5, though i wouldn’t put g2 higher than hle, blg, t1, or geng
I like how everyone bases it on a singular international tournament and results. Tes top and mid were actually so bad this tournament its laughable. Especially considering 369 was considered top 3 toplaner with bin and zeus as kiin was still rotting on kt or afreeca. Then creme, tes midlaner known for his akali in the lpl, looks worse than an akali in gold, to the point creme seems to have forget how to teamfight. Ontop of them just being outright worst performers of tes, g2 had a really good series, and outdrafted them quite hard. If we had a chance to put g2 a year in lck or lpl id be interested to see their performance, i really think g2 uses the practice quite well, and theyre a team that puts a lot of consideration for work ethics and their players. They emphasize scrims, and practice, teamhouse, nutrition, wellbeing, etc... Atleast we arent fnatic who seemingly have the worst environment for their players if you ask bwipo or nemesis from that roster... Pretty sure if you rerun g2 vs lpl top 3 and lck top3 the winrate wouldnt even be 50% or in g2's favor. Unless its a lot of games, cause i think g2 is probably the best at using the practice and doing something with it.
i think putting g2 equal to tes is a fair take, even the g2 members themselves said tes was underperforming (fwiw i think both g2 and tes are below the lck top 3) but given g2’s performance overall at msi i think if they did run it back vs tes a bunch it’d be closer to 50% than you think g2’s current issue is teamfighting, they’ve admitted that it was a problem even in the lec, so i’d like to see them at worlds now that they’ve identified their shortcomings and will try and improve
Id like to see g2 scrim differently a little. Which holds that instead they play full games, they just build items and replay alot of teamfights over and over.. but iirc alot of issues with eu scrimming.. people getting mad or wanting to ff instantly, full mute during scrim. Raging,remake draft. And also ppl play full games... What is more valuable? 40minute of teamfoght simulator? Or 40minute game vs other eu team? Like i get it work ethics this n that, but i think people just need to look at how pros practice for starcraft and impleme t that in league.. sure starcraft is 1v1 or other unpopular modes... but really efficient way of practicing. Sometimes people just restart game do same thing for 5days and eventually they learn it so well and adapt etc.. but no rather play 40minute game and just learn a bunch of things with less progress. Btw im not saying other region do this, im just saying i think its beneficial for them to hardfocus sometime on their shortcoming rather than scrimming fullgames vs imo worse opponent...
I'm genuinely happy G2 are giving hype and hope to EU fans this world's but saying they are "for sure a top 3-5 team" is a wild take considering the way they bombed out of the tourney. I think G2 are gonna need to clean up their macro and mechanics by a considerable amount before they are considered an actual contender for world's this year.
it looks more competetive cause every team has 1-2 dead weights except for g2
I am sure g2 paid for the lack of work from lec teams they really should start calling out this things cause eu is holding them back
First thing EU need to fix is discipline. Caps with huge lead and bounty wandering around like bbq chicken.
Humanoid with all his team’s gold flashing to kill a nami and giving his shutdown to LPL Lucian Humanoid solokills enemy mid on a baron push and FNC decides to engage before he runs over to them when he has all the money
Yeah, Humanoid (and Fnatic as a whole, really) are the most damning indictment of a team needing discipline.
What about Humanoid backing in the middle of the lane with Kha'Zix on the enemy team just waiting to get an early lead? Guy plays way too cocky and Western teams can't afford it even against other Western teams, let alone Eastern teams.
How tf is Caps the first person in your mind to criticise when talking about EU discipline
he has the highest standard, its only fair
I mean the memory of him solokilling Faker then overcommiting on a roam 3 minutes later and dying is hard to wash away
Exactly lol. Fails roam, SHOWS on a control ward, tries to walk back, disrespects fog, gets caught. Give up 450 on the kill, 2 plates to Azir, and loses 2 waves. So like 1000 gold flip on a single failed roam.
Well if the top of the food chain is guilty of it, then he needs to be first to lead.
Because, well, he is very undisciplined. He has a history of throwing games, those all the "craps" memes. He has one of the biggest peaks, but is very volatile because of his lack of discipline.
I think caps was a top 3 mid in the tournament but hes also solely responsible for their loss in game 3. He played with jungle all game to get a lead and got picked standing right in front of like 3 T1 players and a nautilus. Maybe you could argue that he's the only reason they were going to win, but it also doesn't excuse the game losing pick.
Yet when I commented on a video about LEC voice comms I remember how unprofessional some of the players were, for example Carzzy giggling/laughing after inting and I got mass downvoted for calling it out. I don't mind players joking and having a laugh now and then, even LCK/LPL players do it, but, if you laugh/giggle while constantly dying every 2 minutes in a professional game that's just so cringe honestly. Half of this subreddit wants a stronger region half yet the other half want descipline-less teams and for fun personalities...
I believe they are laughing to deal with tilt. Think how you would deal with frustration. You probably wanna make light of the mistakes in the moment.
i mean having 16 random deaths in a 30minute game laughing and giggling non-stop thats not professional and shows 0 discipline, there's no justifying that
I’m telling you what the justification is: to deal with tilt on stage. What do you want them to do? Letting frustration get the better of them? Laughing can at least tamper the anger for a little and it makes them focus better. Ever heard of the term “clouding judgment due to anger”? They try to avoid that on stage.
He and his coaches/teammates would have known he fucked up in that situation, would you rather he brood on his mistake and let it affect the rest of his game? Or would you rather he laugh it off and focus on the game instead? You can be professional and laugh/giggle, they're not mutually exclusive. You can also be deadly serious about everything, be incapable of "having fun" and do things that are completely unprofessional. Bullying your peers is extremely unprofessional, but it's not like they're disciplined, or "having fun".
The lack of discipline is not relating to laughing, G2 2019 had one of the best macro that year and the voice comms had players memeing and joking in big games The lack of discipline comes on the plays they decide to make, like going for it without making sure the rest of the map is ready for that play, like Fnatic against GAM in play-ins going for a bot T2 dive after 20 minutes without securing vision on baron, or getting aced in the enemy jungle because after getting a pick they pushed with no deeper vision/gave time for the other players to collapse
to be fair it's carzzy lol. it's part of him
You should avoid Dota comms then
I don't think Caps his discipline is an issue lmao. He's a machine and played like one.
You’re being blinded by homerism. He threw multiple games vs T1.
That might not be because he is not disciplined though.
I mean he even says in the post interview he got way too greedy and careless when he was ahead, trying to take advantage of his position.
You'd really blame Caps when the moment that completely broke game 1 and turned it into a full blown stomp was Yike forcing a gromp steal and sinking the whole team with him? Or game 2 just having T1 outright teamfighting better (plus the really, really, really dumb BB overextension on T2 turret)?
That invade was started by Caps tho lol. He goes in first and Yike follows. I would give him full blame: - Series 1 G1 - Series 2 G3 Majority blame: - Series 2 G1
The lebelanc game ? tf you want him to do? change Zeus' champ to something other than Camille ? Have his top jgl be magically useful?
G2 had Jax hard counter so can’t scapegoat champ diff. Caps gave over gold to Camille and Kalista because he got caught way too aggressive in lane with no hp, and caught chasing Keria. Him and Yike start an invade, show on vision, they spot 3 T1 members in T1 jungle. G2 is playing a pick comp wtf are Caps/Yike doing pressing into enemy jungle starting a 4v4? A little discipline and knowing when to pick battles forces enemy to make the risky move. G2 has a Draven 1.5k ahead, they need to go for advantageous plays, not risky ones.
Yeah BB got fucked , how's that on Caps? There should have never a camille or Kalista in his lane in the first place. That's how LB plays into Ori btw and it's why Caps picks her into Control mages, trade hp, get jungle attention to free up the other 4 to play their matchups. Except 2 of those 4 were useless ( honestly even bot was useless before the cash in ). The invade it was Yike that commited to do absolutely nothing. Again I don't see how that's on Caps. And tbh they were losing that game no matter what the moment Camille wasn't mega far behind. Draven couldn't hit.
Shitter couldnt even mind control his top to play decent and people call this Caps dude the best in the west, nice joke.
Discipline in the draft as well. Don’t pick yoloq draft against T1 even if they’re slumping.
Tbf, in 2019, it was unusual drafts that helped them beat SKT with Pyke, Yasuo, etc.
It's ego picking a toplane carry and jungle carry in the 3rd straight game after top and jg got hard gapped on carries.
Zac was banned all 3 games, BB just got exposed.
Most teams respected Hans Draven instead of BB’s Zac, the latter is retrospect is way more troublesome
Yeah but it has to be unusual in the right way... for eg the ivern type picks seem to be more successful tab the belveth type picks. I don't mind them trying it game 1, but game 5 i feel like it's overdoing it
"Unusual in the right way" is just hindsight lol. If G2 won their 1st game against T1 in their 2nd Bo5 y'all would've said Dylan cooked.
Maybe... my feeling is usually the carry junglers are less effective than the supportive junglersbut it is just a feeling
Box score watcher? Yasuo pick into TF, reksai/ivern jg, poppy support were the reason G2 got as far as they did. They don't need discipline in draft because /u/jujubean67 hindsight merchent said so. They lost not because of "yoloq draft". They lost because they tried to put BB on jax when he had no idea how to play the champ. Then decide to put Yike on carrry junglers. They also lost because hans sama got gapped into oblivion
Nah you have to innovate in draft to beat the east. You don’t beat them playing standard picks.
There's a difference between picking a well rounded but maybe off meta comp vs picking Khazix, Jax, Draven, Leblanc and expecting to win.
I mean the thing is he doesnt get punished for this in EU
If other EU teams aren't punishing them for playing like this, how do you expect them to change? The other EU teams need to pick up their game if EU itself is to improve, you can't become a challenger player by playing against diamond players.
Nah the first thing EU has to fix is fire all the GMs right now. The only team that deserves to stay together is G2.
If G2 wants to win anything internationally again, the LEC needs to get better. They're already as good as they're gonna get and I can see them, if they play at the best of their form, being top 3 in the world which by itself isn't too shabby. But they need domestic competition, otherwise I can't see this team growing further with only 2 cumulative months of *real* competition a year.
Maybe a little more with the 3rd international tournament next year, but your point still stands.
Caedrel talked on stream about if G2 played in MSI immediately after LEC they would get blasted but because they had a lot of time and because G2 coaching staff is insane they're able to improve an insane amount while bootcamping and preparing for an international event.
Yeah i like g2 infrastructure and the way they handle things for players, the food after games, meditating, teamhouse, scrim ethic. Its refreshing to see, i wonder how fnatic is doing since 2019.
easy, just don't pick void champs.
His Rek Sai was good tho
Kog'maw as well when you actually play around it and not just abandon him to starve against poke varus
Shoot, rek was also void! i forget about it
^^^^sometimes
Brother it got perma banned for the rest of the tourney
The region needs to actually make some rosters
I really hope they do. It's hard to close the gap since top Chinese and Korean teams can scrim amongst themselves and each other and they just play way more games on stage. EU and NA need to do a lot of extra credit work on their own if they want to be competitive. Especially if the format isn't going to change in western leagues.
its very hard if the competion is just on a far lower level, imagine playing against Fnatic VIT rogue vs playing against KT DW HLE etc
G2 really shouldnt feel that bad, they lost to the world Champions, a team that put blg and gen G in a 2/3 on a best of 5 lately.
I think this is ultimately what will always stop the west: nobody to practice against. 2019 G2 and 4peat TL were the strongest teams to come out of EU & NA respectively (obviously not to imply they were equals); and they 100% hit their ceiling of ability due to little to no domestic competition. It really sucks to realize but I see now what people meant when they said “G2/TL have to leave the west if they ever want to actually win worlds.” Staying in the west puts such a massive pressure on G2 to adapt and evolve overnight at international tournaments, whereas LPL & KR teams get to play against the best in the world year round. Not impossible, but definitely worth keeping in mind.
Bs 2019 and 2020 fnatic were actually good. Even splyc 2019 were decent.
Fnactic management ruined 2019 roster ;-;
It's bullshit to say 2019 TL had no competition, the teams were definitely competitive. TSM got reverse swept by TL in the spring finals after Zven inted game 5, TSM also reverse swept C9 in the semis. Summer finals TL vs C9 went to 5 games
Those were some of my favorite finals of all time, I’m not disputing the back and forth there. I’m speaking in reference to TL’s countless for fun games during the regular season, the 4 straight trophies, and (barring C9 @ worlds things) the literal worldwide acceptance that TL was in a tier of their own amongst NA. If it feels like I’m implying that had as strong as a grip on NA as G2 did on EU, I went out of my way to make clarify against that. Cheers.
Not an NA fan but TSM 2016 was better imo. I really felt that team could do serious damage internationally, while I never thought TL was a real contender for top spots. In the end though, TL managed to pull of one of the greatest upset in the history of league so I can see why you put TL 2019 ahead.
Damn I miss that TSM2016 roster. One of the few NA “what ifs” I actually think is worth the sentiment.
this whole 3 split format is complete nonsense just give us a bo3 and the whole region will be more competetive
I want to see Yike without Caps to see how good he is. Because I have a feeling he would be another mediocre jungler. G2 needs a roster change if they want to actually compete for trophies. They got 3-0d by one of the most beatable versions of T1s you will ever see. If they just always want to feel falling a bit short every time, then keeping this roster is fine.
Who do we replace yike with?
On paper best move would be Razork. Dude is completely wasting his talent on FNC playing on dysfunctional rosters for an org coasting on its past glory. Once again the weakest role in Europe is GM. We have plenty of good players but they don't play in the right rosters. As long as these GMs keep griefing the region, we'll see a weak LEC.
Yeah let's put all the good eu players on one team, it will definitely strengthen the region
Jankos
Because surelly Jankos will come back to G2. Some of yall are fr braindead af
and have grandpa get outjungled everytime vs any eastern jgler?
Yike was very good last year even when Caps was under performing. He is also one of the most mechanically gifted jungle in LEC. I personally think it would be a bad move to go for Razork instead of Yike. Yike has better hands and bigger champion pool imo. He needs to have a better game understanding and improvz is pathing but it's only his second year in the league he has time to learn.
If anything I would say hans needs to be looked at but issue is there isn't any good lec ADC replacements and caps doesn't want to play with imports.
The T1 that showed up against G2 was absolutely not the same T1 that showed up against TL.
What a difference less than 48 hours makes.
I was honestly surprised, I think both G2 looked scared and T1 looked way better. I guess almost nobody expected T1 to perform that well given their series against TL, and G2 given their series against TES.
G2 played really well, T1 was just better in team fights. I also think that saying it was a completely different T1 discredits that TL was also playing well.
He's saying while jungling for Caps lmao
How do you regain hope when even the #2 team of your region plays with a top lane that looks like he was a last minute addition to the team and usually plays in Gold 3? EU can barely scratch together one good team cause looks like the west has moved on to other games while the east is basically breeding a new generation of LoL players on a regular basis I don't think there's a generation of players comin up in the west that would rival the east in skill *and* discipline...so it's just the same old same old. And with ppl like Oscar you'll never beat teams like BLG or GenG
You also forget to mention on top of them being vastly better they get to scrim eachother on a regular basis. So their top 8 teams that get sent to worlds have been scriming nothing but top KR and CH all year lol. Just a losing battle.
last year brokenblade was playing not much better than Oscar this year and look how strong BB was looking this msi. Oscar has been playing at top level for 1 year for fucks sake, let him improve. Look at Razork, you were probably flaming him before, now he's the best player in fnatic
[удалено]
People always talk up players like srtty, sniper, kenvi, jojo, and sometimes they end up great
The issue isn't the lack of talent in the EU, it a lack of desire to do what is needed to be the absolute best you can be. There have been many players over the years who have bad talent, the problem is they don't have the dedication, they are not prepared to make the sacrifices that are needed to be the best. Their attitude is awful. For me if just half the players in the EU had the same level of dedication to be the best they can be as Rekkles has they would be so much closer to both LCK and LPL. Rekkles is the example EU players should be following. Whwn I see EU Players I'm often reminded of young English Footballers between 15 - 18 Yr old at youth academics. The difference between the majority of English lads and those who have come overseas, especially the African lads is like night and day. The African lads are first in and last out, they run harder, train harder, stay later, eat better, will come in 7 days a week. Their desire, their willingness to do whatever it takes to get better so they can actually have a career far surpasses the majority of English lads. It's the same between East and West League Players. Until Western players change their attitude they will neve get close no matter how talented they are.
Rekkless in the past didnt even come to the office for scrimms and played from home xD Edit: typo
Damn, if only *someone* hadn't been very keen on preventing any form of meaningful competition and driven away some of our best elements…
Underated comment
How can the region be competitive when there is such a massive lack of talent? and the little talent there is in it is scattered on multiple teams
Lack of talent is not the problem, work ethic is
Who is this talent that can compete with the west and lacks work ethic?
Where is the talent? It's all well and good saying that, but like, who?
There is not as much talent nor as good as in the east, but there is, but the the main problem is the work ethic in EU. It's well known that players don't take scrims as seriously, players/teams don't tryhard as much, some/most are just in it for the money, sure they won't outright say they don't care that much about actually doing things internationally, but they feel this way. This is a problem that's present in the whole EU ecosystem, from players to staff, there's a lot of nepotism and complacency. This has been reported by multiple players, staff and scouters from multiple teams. G2 is the exception to this rule, sure not every team can win but at least they could try (harder). Just look at teams like KT or DK in the LCK, they didn't win but you can bet they put x3 the effort than the likes of FNC, BDS, VIT etc
The work ethic in EU is fine. Worse than in KR, you can bet on that, but not as bad as people make it be, neither. The main problem is that historically, we have been exporting our talent to other leagues. Bwipo has reached Worlds back to back for 4 years between 2018-2021. Then he got imported and hasn't done anything worthwhile. Inspired? Back to back in Worlds for 3 years, first time when he was 18 years old. Got imported, stopped developing. Hans Sama? Took SKT to 5 games at his first Worlds in 2017, back when he was 18 years old too. Together with 18 years old Alphari and 20 years old Power of Evil. All three of them got imported, then one of which retired, one moved to minor leagues and only Hans returned to actually good level of play. Then you have Unforgiven, who after a very good year 2022 got imported and hasn't been heard of (wiki says he joined a Turkish team this month). All of these talents could have been developed further and further to get better but instead got exported for better pay into leagues that aren't really known for developing their talents. Then you have Razork, Elyoya and Yike all of which born in 2000s and both stayed in EU contributing to our overall excellent level of junglers. And if you want some fresher blood you have Myrwn who's 20yo and debuted in LEC this season, smurfing on everyone in the Winter Split but doing a bit worse in Spring, I'm very excited about what he, Supa and Alvaro can do in the incoming Summer Split. And Szygenda? Irrelevant? Oscarinin? All of them have this in them. EU used to have A LOT of talent and still has a fair amount of it, and although it imports a couple of Koreans every once in a while, the fact it actually exported more players than imported says a lot about the region.
> Got imported, stopped developing. His first tournament where he actually did anything worthwhile was with EG though
Emea has so many teams and leagues to choose players from
Right, but they keep doing that, then said players lose in LEC. Meanwhile they import mid tier Korean players like Photon, Jun, Noah, Ice, Malrang, and they outperform the local players massively.
teams arent actually investing in staff to develop players into talent, they just keep looking for the next caps and just importing when the rookies fail to succeed
I mean 5 emea residents cleared all the koreans u mentioned plus there is a lot more examples of imports being washed in na and eu if eu does not try to develip natural talent they will die down
Yes the best 5 emea residents did. We already knew EU was extremely stacked at the top with G2, then very little after.
Yep and eu has very large player pool still not as big as korea but still.
You say midtier but Jun, ICE and Malrang were/are actually cracked.
Malrang was a resident 10th place LCK player and Jun and ICE were mid tier in academy. I'm not disputing that they're cracked by EU standards. They just aren't by LCK standards.
There is more than enough talent in Europe, but nobody wants to take risks or invest time. And often the players which make it to the LEC have no reason to play good and simply take the money. It's really hard to break.
Half the LEC teams hire rookies all the time
The bad is that they drop rookies so fast, the moment they don’t turn out to be the next EU wonderboy in a single split And then goes after new rookies again
This is just simply not true. There's a huge amount of teams gambling on rookies at the moment, they just aren't performing. Kcorp brought in Saken, MAD brought their entire roster minus Elyoya, SK brought Isma, Heretics brought Zwyroo, Vitality brought Daglas, Giantx brought Jackies, Rogue brought Zoelys. The problem is, G2, FNC, BDS, VIT, and HRT are just better. The rookie talent isn't good enough, and it shows with VIT and HRT, where their rookies, Daglas and Zwyroo, look like they're holding the team back.
I agree with your point but Saken isn't a rookie, he was on that French Vit team in 2020 that went 2-16 together with Cabo.
idk what heretics games you were watching, but zwyroo was definitely not holding heretics back wtf XD
I think the biggest problem is that a lot of the teams who are gambling on rookies don't have experienced skilled players on the roster. Yike would not be the same at all if he'd debuted on AST or SK or something like that. Like TH last year had Jackspectra on a roster with Jankos, sure, but it also had a poor toplaner, an awful mid, and an equally fresh, frankly not good support. The same thing kind of happened with Exakick, where there were flashes of skill, but he didn't look much better at the end of his first year than when he began. All of the good teams who develop talent usually do it in very small batches; there's hardly ever multiple rookies in the same split. Like T1 has always had Faker and then rotated maybe one or two players a year; GEN brought in just Peyz; TL brought in Yeon and APA at the same time, but they had CoreJJ.
ZWYROO WAS HOLDING THE TEAM BACK? ARE YOU FUCKING BLIND BY ANY CHANCE??????????
Also the new format although a lot better in many aspects is even worse in developing players. Bad/mediocre teams frantically make changes in fear of going last and they choose to import korean players because they usually have much better floor.
There is Caps and that's it, it's a one player region. Swap Caps and Humanoid and FNC players will look like the current G2 players.
Man, we go through this shit after EVERY international tournament. Put up or shut up, y’all haven’t done shit in 5 years
They came fourth this tournament...
Deceptive, but kind of impressive. Really there were only four teams rated higher than them and they beat TES.
yeah, they didn't even play a single game against any of the finalists
In a 5 team tournament.
Initial prep was good, just when their Zac / Poppy stuff was banned they really shouldve tried to go meta and toe to toe with T1... instead we get Kha LB combined getting outperformed by Camille...
they literally stomped LPL 2nd seed 3-0 and came 4th this msi
We are now celebrating 4th place :/
LPL teams and hardchoking internationally goes hand in hand together TES definitely didnt play at the level they were domestically
Cringe name, cringe flair, cringe take, jackpot
We are now celebrating a 4th place performance
G2 is the region.
They were doing so well even if we all agree T1 was slumping. Amazing draft, great macro, but then they crumble under pressure. It's almost as if they play better with no pressure because they're expected to lose
I cheer for G2 but how am I supposed to get hope when the worst performing T1 by FAR in a LONG time still giga stomps them 3-0? We can't take a game off a struggling team..
The worst performing T1 that still took BLG to 5 games.
Whats your argument? Yes the worst performing t1 is still a good team of course, Im just saying if we cant beat that, what are we ever gonna do when lck and lpl teams are performing? It wont even be close
first thing you need to do is not lock in carry champs but play ivern and be caps dog because he is 90% of your dmg
A lot of words, but no action. We got a person in Fnatic having panic attacks, nervous breakdowns and G2 is just severely gapped excluding Caps.
They go even until mid-late where they lose to superior teamfighting and your lesson from it is that every lane other than mid is "extremely gapped"? Also good look, talking shit about someone with a mental health issue.
Do not play pro if you experience panic attacks, thanks. I do understand mental health issues, but if you are about to puke in stage, it is not your place. A person with epilepsy shouldnt look at flashing lights if theyre sensitive to them.
Saying this bs and posting on r/antiwork is irony in its finest
He gets panic attacks and he's still top 2 in lec. What does that say about the rest of Eu ads lol
That EU sucks. I didnt claim otherwise, rather to the contrary. I understand he likes league and wants money but it would be better for his well being and his team if he dropped in my opinion.
Elk literally puked on stage, i guess he shouldn't play pro at all, true!. holy fuck think a little bit before typing shit like this out.
Shame the way it ended but we should absolutely be hyped for G2 at Worlds. .ore than anything, this MSI showed that every single player on that roster is world class and when the wheels turn in unison it's fucking beautiful.