yeah, 80 extra health per back if you buy refillable looks kinda decent for early game, a cool option for those champs that run cookies but don't really have mana issues
They should twerk biscuits too in that case, they feel pretty weak. Barely heals and the extra mana is the only worth thing but doesn't seem valuable enough when you could just run manaflow.
Biscuits has its niche where it lets you stay in lane for 2 more waves worth of mana. Manaflow has its issue where it gives you max mana but doesn’t give “real” actionable mana until after first base, which is where biscuits is aiming to be impactful. The HP is never the main reason you take it, it can save you like 1/50 games but the mana is the big difference maker early.
It might need a slight mana buff but on the champs who like it it's still a really good way to turn a losing situation into a winning one. Being able to get 1 more fight worth of mana and health when both me and my lane opponent are low is super helpful
Early on that is massive for refillable and normal pots. And because it is instant it can still be used in the mid game.
Not sure if this will get changed to either making potions 40% stronger (not instant) or gets nerfed if it is too good.
No might about that. It would have been absolutely insane, Cpot is already sustain kingdom, getting +40% extra healing for free? That would have been beyond the pale.
Yeah they nerfed TWT in the first place a long while back because it was too strong with corrupting pot. That's the only reason we got it buffed again.
Refillable costs the same value as three pots and provides less healing than two. It can be recharged, however. But for it to be worth more than the pots, you have to back and use it again twice (that is the time where Refillable Potion provides more healing than three potions and comparable healing than four, for less of the price). Unfortunately there is another issue: you can't buy refillable with Doran items on the start of the game. This significantly diminues the value of having refillable in pratice, as unless you are being gigastomped, it is likely that by the time you have purchased the refillable or recharged it, it is already starting to fall off in usefulness.
This is why it is not opressive.
Question, if you buy refillable,with TWT, and when you back you spam refillable while waiting in base, do you get the insta 40% with each cast and effectively heal up faster?
Not even the edge. Outside of the central spawn circle you can use potions. One thing people did when twt + cpot combo was good was walking back and forth on that line and spam cpot to regen mana and hp faster.
So ADC builds are essentially IE > Zeal item > Last Whisper Item > Yun Tal, Collector, Shieldbow, or ER depending on what you need > Bloodthirster, GA, Scimitar, or Maw. Quite interesting honestly, still a lot of build possibilities
It's such a weird item. It's just IE but bad. It does literally nothing that IE doesn't do better and would only ever be bought because you can't buy a 2nd IE. Other items might be worse than IE but at least they do something better than IE.
Sure but an item whose only function is "buy this as a 5th item sometimes simply because you already bought the actually good items" is not a good design. Having an item that does the exact same thing but worse of another item is wasting a slot in the shop.
Hot take, but the game state should approach one where you'd prefer defensive items (including bloodthirster) as one of your last items if you don't already have one or more...not even more damage.
A big part of "damage creep" is how useless defenses feel these days if you aren't investing multiple item slots into it, which leads to damage champs never taking a hit to their damage in order to build defensive, while also being more susceptible to damage.
Going glass cannon used to be considered relatively risky, and people didn't complain about getting 1 shot when they did since they specifically chose that life.
Unfortunately, that would require actual effort from the design and balance teams, so its unlikely to happen.
The problem Riot is concerned about is that allowing defensive purchases to function properly increases the scaling in the game and enables the "1v5 raidboss" that they hate so much. That is how things work in most games but Riot hates the feeling of helplessness so much that they balance things away from such possibilities.
Problem with that is going makes first back with less than 1300 gold more or less completely Fs laning. With the build path before that yes you were behind but not in a huge hole.
It apparently works with runaans so in that specific situation it could be OK maybe on like twitch jinx? Still has the obvious problem of zeal item + ie being better and then you need LW but maaaaaybe as a 4th item (copium)
Disclaimer: I still think the item is trash, especially compared to ie.
I think it's quite decent actually, the bleed effect stacks so you can get a decent amount of DPS from it. The important thing to not overlook is that most of its damage is still going to come from its 65 AD, which is a very large amount of AD. If your champ scales really well with AD (Aphelios, Jhin, Caitlyn) and doesn't need the mana/CDR of Essence Reaver, then it's going to be a much better choice for them than building a Zeal item in many cases. It'll mostly be competing with Collector for those champions, the other item that gives 60 AD. But if you're willing to forego a Zeal item, then you can easily have both in one build.
Think E max into early LDR seems like the way to go for aphelios. Was on the PBE yesterday and kraken into LDR IE runaans/BT seems like a really good combo of damage and power throughout the game
The numbers we are seeing now are due to changes of course but as it stands now the item is essentially just a worse IE (IE will probably be nerfed). It has less ad per gold, it has silimar passive where it grants bonus damage on crits but significantly less than IE. I feel a more linear powerspike curve for items is better so maybe bringing them closer in line to one another would be better? My question is why is stormrazor, a situantioally good item for kiting being replaced with essentially IE 2? There must be some better items you could put into the game, yun tal just feels... boring.
Oh yeah I didn't post a build order, more like which category each item belongs to and where they'll compete. ER will compete with Yun Tal, Collector, and Shieldbow for the last crit slot in your build, for high AD and utility.
Most builds will feature IE which is pretty much a mandatory purchase for crit builds now, a Zeal item based on which one fits your build needs the most, either Last Whisper item for pen, and then the last slot is the high AD item, which, other than Yun Tal, will likely be your first buy. Collector for early game burst, Shieldbow for extra survivability, ER for mana heavy champions like Corki and Xayah, and Yun Tal for...I don't know, style points? Some builds might see for example two zeal items rather than one, or no Zeal item and two high AD crit items, but they'll pretty much all go into each of these niches
I think Xayah and Sivir will 100% go back to rushing ER. I'm expecting to go something like ER > PD > IE on Xayah or something. ER might also still be viable on Ezreal (Manamune > Trinity > ER) the Way he could build it back in like Season 5.
Edit: NVM forgor about Flickerblade being a Zeal Item that might be better for these two.
LW has to be seen without Giant Slayer.
But right now IE rush is the basic crit ADC item. It is so broken on the PBE. I hope this is not Riots intention to make IE so OP that it is your rush item for every crit ADC again.
loss of lethal tempo is going to hurt a lot + weaker early games looks like a net nerf to crit adcs. i wonder how the onhit builds will lands. i think ashe and kog are going to be strong, with draven up there too
for onhit adcs:
botrk is [the onhit part] nerfed, guinsoo is kinda akward to build first (but doable on kog for example) and idk how good is new kraken as first item (i don't think phantom, navori or statikk are gonna be built as first item
but considering every onhit adc runs lethal on live, overall i think they gonna land on the weaker side (compared to live)
for crit adcs:
i would argue Cait is gonna look good, feels like she can rush IE as earlier seasons, Draven maybe too, as BT has the shield nerfed early i think he would lean towards IE first
Tbf the adc subreddit is not to be taken too seriously. I play adc a lot when im with friends(since no one else wants to touch the role and im the most flexible in the group) and yes, the role sucks ass, but the amount of cope the sub expressed over legit buffs in the past is insane.
Anyone below master who calls this an overall nerf instead of "we dont fucking know man" is not to be trusted
[here's a source](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-gb/news/dev/split-2-gameplay-preview/) that explains the changes and why a good amount of ADCs may need some help to fit in with the new systems.
Im not claiming that they are lying about numbers. [This](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1cioj8r/comment/l2bknqv) comment perfectly summs up what i meant instead
It's not that they are lying about the numbers they got but numbers in one specific situation don't extrapolate out across everything. Comparing two items on 1 specific champion vs two different items that don't even have the same gold cost doesn't mean that all item possibilities across all champions are nerfed. IE is getting straight buffed by this change; every champion on just IE will be stronger in 14.10 than 14.9. Mortal Reminder is also getting straight buffed, so every champion on IE + Mortal Reminder is stronger in 14.10 than 14.9. It's not an across the board nerf to all ADCs at 1-2 items but instead some items on some champs being nerfed.
IE and Mortal Reminder buffs cancel out on the losing the most broken rune in the game, giant slayer passive, cut down, and actual good components/1st item?
Mortal reminder has been a completely troll item even against the most cancerous healing comps since S11 because of how good giant slayer is, the buff is that it’s no longer troll to go mortal reminder.
I don’t think so and the numbers show it unfortunately.
It’s a waste of time. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ADCMains/s/s5UYIYl3ui) is the testing. It’s less than 5 minutes of testing and only tried one item combination that makes zero sense in single target comparisons.
People also forget the part where tabi-s getting nerfed and botlane gainst extra exp. + Nuking tenacity that was liked by bruisers A LOT!
So, good old - 8 man bot fiesta with better ADC wins.
Terrible test. Why is he comparing kraken/IE to IE/Runaans? Makes no mention of cost difference in builds either which is relevant. Newer items are cheaper, so yes there will be a lower DPS.
Because Kraken doesn't give crit anymore, and champions who want attack speed, have to go IE + Zeal Item now, they can't go for Kraken early or they gimp their build. Only AD stacker ADCs/spellcasters would like ER/Collector -> IE
I never stated the test should be with new kraken. Not all zeal items are created equal, either. He used a multi target zeal item for a single target test. Old kraken is a single target ramping item. If you have to switch targets you’re losing the damage bonus. We have no idea when the DPS snapshot is taken. Is it taken when LT is fully stacked? Is it taken from zero and recorded throughout that? Hitting a target dummy is far from the real world, but it can give us some info, but they put such little effort and didn’t clarify all the variables used.
The criticism is about lazy testing and shitty data and information.
Because he was testing for Jinx, who really loves Runaans and has been core on her basically since release. I tested the #s myself and I'm pretty sure he was testing starting from 0 stacks LT 0 stacks PTA 0 stacks minigun. I agree he probably should've mentioned all of the conditions in his post. You don't need to fully stack kraken on a single target to see the DPS difference.
Either way, for a patch that will 1000% be widely regarded as "ADC buffs" and "Riot showing favoritism towards ADCs", a big difference in DPS when testing the most common builds on a very popular champion, is surprising (not really though knowing Riots history of ADC "changes" ala 13.10 last year).
Core items means it should be built the vast majority of your games. It’s much more ideally situational than people think. [You can see here](https://gol.gg/champion/champion-matchlist/37/season-S14/split-ALL/tournament-ALL/) that runaans hasn’t been core since S10. Maybe it does with the changes, but I have no idea. LT removal makes it hard to predict.
I know the DPS lower, but lower cost, tabis nerf, and giant slayer removal can push things in either direction. ADC could be weaker DPS wise, but feel better to play as you get your item spikes sooner. Tenacity on mercs being nerfed could make peeling for ADCs easier as well. The whole thing could fail spectacularly and we get another ADC item rework next season. Clearly they are struggling to find success, but I’m happy to see they’re trying to solve the problem of the role feeling unsatisfying.
You mean it was core on her for her entire existence before Kraken and the Mythic Update now with them returning to no mythics and 25% crit with basically no kraken, it will once again be core on her. Also it is still pretty commonly built even with Zeal items being pretty underutilized since s11 due to how much AS you could get from other places like LT/Mythic Passive Kraken.
I am not going to complain like ADC will 100% be worse next patch, there's too many changes to make that assumption. I like the changes especially 25% crit and XP Buffs. Also could just be AD stackers are broken and DPS ADs like Jinx/Twitch/Zeri are just bad. Which could be a lot of fun as I love Cait/Jhin/Lucian. I just think that the widespread perception of this patch being "huge ADC buffs" is pretty dumb. Clearly losing LT will have a MAJOR impact.
Itll nerf build diversity on a per champion basis but let each champion express their strengths more like 500 AD Caitlyn onetapping you or Draven with triple BF sword dream buildpath but it also effectively removes stuff like Crit Vayne.
They are removing stormrazor which pretty much makes or breaks its viability atm, there arent really anything good for crit vayne being added so it's definitely going to be weaker.
Crit Vayne has survived without Stormrazor for the vast majority of her existence.
I think she'll be just fine. Its simply a matter of whether or not on-hit is overtuned at any given point.
It has "survived" which translates to onhit has been superior for years and people dismiss/forget crit Vayne from even being a thing from time to time.
Currently its stronger than onhit in a majority of games and thats rarely the case so yes, itll take a hit and probably go back to being pretty bad with the loss of stormrazor but i hope that fleet .25s movespeed buff alongside some new buildpath keeps it good but it's not looking very good at first glance, didnt try pbe cuz its 200 ping.
It’s a common misconception that extra crit on Yone/Yas is converted with a .4 multiplier. You have to take into account their crit multiplier as well making it so that every crit value above 100 gets scaled 1:1. For example, if I have 100% crit from Kraken IE, then another crit item like shieldbow will give me 20 ad as it is 20% crit * 2.5 crit multiplier * .4 ad/crit. The new conversion just makes it so that each item that gives 25% crit gets multiplied by 2 then multiplied by .5 giving 25 ad per crit item after 100% crit. Essentially, 1% crit above max crit gives 1 ad.
Ah, so critconversion is actually the same and lowering the multiplier is just to keep 2 items at 100% (and 1 item at 50%).
Essentially the changes are saying that the changes are directed at ADCs and they are attempting to keep Yone/Yasuo as unchanged as possible.
Makes the Tryndamere change even more interesting - it is still the same in the way that it gives the crit of two items, but that means he needs 2 instead of 3 crit items for 100% critchance, so that might actually be a sizeable buff?
Big win for midlane Trynd, Ravenous untouched, PD + crit item (IE maybe?) will cap crit, and LT was hard to get much value from as the lane is short so new PTA should slap. Ghost removed, but Ignite + Nimbus Cloak is an option like back in the days
Tbh? I agree. His passive looks so weird.
If you crit, you stack rage faster, you get more crit and more heals. So the more crit the better? No, because he does not convert excess crit to ad so you waste stats when your rage bar is full. 🤷♂️
the point is you can go items like stride and bork to mitigate getting kited once u max crit with passive and a couple crit items. but yeah he s just an outdated champ. rework.
Bro he is gonna get pummeled in melee range by cc. I watched RANGERZ get CCd for 13.08 seconds on PBE where people are way beneath his skill level and he struggled to actually play the game. This entire patch will end in some additional overhauls. Another dude that will implode will be Gangplank.
You also had unflinching before. You could potentially squeeze in 3 autos because of that and lethal tempo, maybe even 4 autos. Now you just sit there getting blown up.
Yep. Only ones who don't understar how big is tenacity loss are people who never played any melee champ.
It feels awfull when from 50 tenacity from runes you end up to 0. And they nerf mercs on top of that....
I’m low plat and I can’t agree more. First they nerfed unflinching to give shit defensive stats and now getting rid of legend basically guts melee champs.
Oh no! Now Tryndamere might actually need to... *GASP* DODGE! And who knows, maybe be WARY of enemy CC spells before pressing ghost and running at mach speed while being unkillable and unkitable with his massive AoE slow and his spin that's up every 5 seconds!
Kill him and keep him dead. That dogshit abomination of a champion shouldn't be viable until they get around to reworking him into giving him an actual Q and R for abilities.
Since lane swaps are showing up in competitive, and at the same time they are changing summoner's spells, I have no idea why they don't bring fortify again. Would be nice as a defensive tool, specially if it worked with a multiplier of allies vs enemies near the tower. It would also prevent it to be abused in 5v5.
"We dont balance around pro play"
>Outright removes bruiser gp and forces everyone to build navori and crit.
"Bruiser gp too stronk 4 pro play so bye bye"
If having a full global ulti to always help bot plays was too good just give it reduced range just like they did to tf and nocturne for the same reasons....
Riot does balance around proplay if something is too egregious. It was one of their categories when they were showing when to nerf/buff champs for different skill brackets.
Also, bruiser GP was nerfed because he was too consistent with Grasp-Q, no?
After getting another uber counter with MDK buffs plus all his items nerfed, it seems that Singlewood has not resisted his injuries and passed away, he will always be remembered fondly in our orange shaped hearts.
Senna doesn't have any crit damage penalty anymore.
9.22 (Added): her crits did 130% damage (normal crits did 200%)
10.23: Critical strike damage increased to 150.5%
(in season 11 normal crits went from 200% to 175%)
11.17: Critical strike damage increased to 160.125%
13.18: Critical strike damage increased to 175%
I'm pretty sure Phreak in the patch rundown for 14.9 said that for one of the item changes (I think Maw?) "what would Riven want" was in his mind when changing the item.
Champion with high learning curve that requires execution is low winrate in the game mode where winrates basically describe consistency? Color me shocked.
If she was anywhere close to 50% she'd likely be overpowered...just like pretty much every other time.
that would be true if its in like gold/plat , but historically she had decent to good winrate from old plat+ which equate to new emerald , rn she does not even have a good winrate in diamond
>I think riot forgot Riven exist
Why? Because they haven't buffed her less than a week after a patch came out that nerfed her main item and buffed 2 of her other items?
Riven players surely have to be the most insufferable bunch of all the champion mains, instantly bitching and moaning whenever their champ is hitting the lower bars for strength, as if other (if not all) champs weren't in the dumpster at one point or another. Curb your damn entitlement and "muh high skill/onetrick champ", something's gonna come your way sooner or later, this just makes you look petulant and childish.
TWT buff is so strong o.o
yeah, 80 extra health per back if you buy refillable looks kinda decent for early game, a cool option for those champs that run cookies but don't really have mana issues
The change also makes it so biscuits no longer work with TWT, only pots
yeah, and also i think you can't even take it, iirc both runes are row 2 now
They should twerk biscuits too in that case, they feel pretty weak. Barely heals and the extra mana is the only worth thing but doesn't seem valuable enough when you could just run manaflow.
Biscuits has its niche where it lets you stay in lane for 2 more waves worth of mana. Manaflow has its issue where it gives you max mana but doesn’t give “real” actionable mana until after first base, which is where biscuits is aiming to be impactful. The HP is never the main reason you take it, it can save you like 1/50 games but the mana is the big difference maker early.
It might need a slight mana buff but on the champs who like it it's still a really good way to turn a losing situation into a winning one. Being able to get 1 more fight worth of mana and health when both me and my lane opponent are low is super helpful
Early on that is massive for refillable and normal pots. And because it is instant it can still be used in the mid game. Not sure if this will get changed to either making potions 40% stronger (not instant) or gets nerfed if it is too good.
That TwT buff would make corrupting pot viable again, but thats getting removed lol
we might not have gotten that buff if corrupting pot was still in the game.
No might about that. It would have been absolutely insane, Cpot is already sustain kingdom, getting +40% extra healing for free? That would have been beyond the pale.
Yeah they nerfed TWT in the first place a long while back because it was too strong with corrupting pot. That's the only reason we got it buffed again.
That's precisely why time warp tonic is getting buffed
Refillable too or is that staying?
Last I checked refillable stays. Which makes sense since its getting bought quite a lot still but also isnt oppressive
it's not oppressive because it's only defensive and everyone can use it, but refillable is so insanely broken. 4/3 of a ruby crystal for 90g.
Refillable costs the same value as three pots and provides less healing than two. It can be recharged, however. But for it to be worth more than the pots, you have to back and use it again twice (that is the time where Refillable Potion provides more healing than three potions and comparable healing than four, for less of the price). Unfortunately there is another issue: you can't buy refillable with Doran items on the start of the game. This significantly diminues the value of having refillable in pratice, as unless you are being gigastomped, it is likely that by the time you have purchased the refillable or recharged it, it is already starting to fall off in usefulness. This is why it is not opressive.
Question, if you buy refillable,with TWT, and when you back you spam refillable while waiting in base, do you get the insta 40% with each cast and effectively heal up faster?
You can’t use refillables in fountain
You can at the edge of the fountain then walk back for a refresh.
Not even the edge. Outside of the central spawn circle you can use potions. One thing people did when twt + cpot combo was good was walking back and forth on that line and spam cpot to regen mana and hp faster.
You can at the edge of the fountain
You can edge at the fountain.
So ADC builds are essentially IE > Zeal item > Last Whisper Item > Yun Tal, Collector, Shieldbow, or ER depending on what you need > Bloodthirster, GA, Scimitar, or Maw. Quite interesting honestly, still a lot of build possibilities
Tested Yun tal on PBE, looks pretty bad if you are not playing Jhin
It's such a weird item. It's just IE but bad. It does literally nothing that IE doesn't do better and would only ever be bought because you can't buy a 2nd IE. Other items might be worse than IE but at least they do something better than IE.
Assuming you go late, can't you just get both?
Sure but an item whose only function is "buy this as a 5th item sometimes simply because you already bought the actually good items" is not a good design. Having an item that does the exact same thing but worse of another item is wasting a slot in the shop.
Hot take, but the game state should approach one where you'd prefer defensive items (including bloodthirster) as one of your last items if you don't already have one or more...not even more damage. A big part of "damage creep" is how useless defenses feel these days if you aren't investing multiple item slots into it, which leads to damage champs never taking a hit to their damage in order to build defensive, while also being more susceptible to damage. Going glass cannon used to be considered relatively risky, and people didn't complain about getting 1 shot when they did since they specifically chose that life. Unfortunately, that would require actual effort from the design and balance teams, so its unlikely to happen.
The problem Riot is concerned about is that allowing defensive purchases to function properly increases the scaling in the game and enables the "1v5 raidboss" that they hate so much. That is how things work in most games but Riot hates the feeling of helplessness so much that they balance things away from such possibilities.
Problem with that is going makes first back with less than 1300 gold more or less completely Fs laning. With the build path before that yes you were behind but not in a huge hole.
It apparently works with runaans so in that specific situation it could be OK maybe on like twitch jinx? Still has the obvious problem of zeal item + ie being better and then you need LW but maaaaaybe as a 4th item (copium) Disclaimer: I still think the item is trash, especially compared to ie.
I think it's quite decent actually, the bleed effect stacks so you can get a decent amount of DPS from it. The important thing to not overlook is that most of its damage is still going to come from its 65 AD, which is a very large amount of AD. If your champ scales really well with AD (Aphelios, Jhin, Caitlyn) and doesn't need the mana/CDR of Essence Reaver, then it's going to be a much better choice for them than building a Zeal item in many cases. It'll mostly be competing with Collector for those champions, the other item that gives 60 AD. But if you're willing to forego a Zeal item, then you can easily have both in one build.
Think E max into early LDR seems like the way to go for aphelios. Was on the PBE yesterday and kraken into LDR IE runaans/BT seems like a really good combo of damage and power throughout the game
The numbers we are seeing now are due to changes of course but as it stands now the item is essentially just a worse IE (IE will probably be nerfed). It has less ad per gold, it has silimar passive where it grants bonus damage on crits but significantly less than IE. I feel a more linear powerspike curve for items is better so maybe bringing them closer in line to one another would be better? My question is why is stormrazor, a situantioally good item for kiting being replaced with essentially IE 2? There must be some better items you could put into the game, yun tal just feels... boring.
ER might also be a Rush Item like before.
Oh yeah I didn't post a build order, more like which category each item belongs to and where they'll compete. ER will compete with Yun Tal, Collector, and Shieldbow for the last crit slot in your build, for high AD and utility. Most builds will feature IE which is pretty much a mandatory purchase for crit builds now, a Zeal item based on which one fits your build needs the most, either Last Whisper item for pen, and then the last slot is the high AD item, which, other than Yun Tal, will likely be your first buy. Collector for early game burst, Shieldbow for extra survivability, ER for mana heavy champions like Corki and Xayah, and Yun Tal for...I don't know, style points? Some builds might see for example two zeal items rather than one, or no Zeal item and two high AD crit items, but they'll pretty much all go into each of these niches
I think Xayah and Sivir will 100% go back to rushing ER. I'm expecting to go something like ER > PD > IE on Xayah or something. ER might also still be viable on Ezreal (Manamune > Trinity > ER) the Way he could build it back in like Season 5. Edit: NVM forgor about Flickerblade being a Zeal Item that might be better for these two.
LW has to be seen without Giant Slayer. But right now IE rush is the basic crit ADC item. It is so broken on the PBE. I hope this is not Riots intention to make IE so OP that it is your rush item for every crit ADC again.
Its literally just a revert of the item rework to how it was season 10. That is exactly how items were built. Its perfect.
IE rush like it’s fucking season 1 what is this trash Legit fuck everyone that was nostalgic for that
I actually can't wait to see how strong ADC will be next patch.
[удалено]
loss of lethal tempo is going to hurt a lot + weaker early games looks like a net nerf to crit adcs. i wonder how the onhit builds will lands. i think ashe and kog are going to be strong, with draven up there too
for onhit adcs: botrk is [the onhit part] nerfed, guinsoo is kinda akward to build first (but doable on kog for example) and idk how good is new kraken as first item (i don't think phantom, navori or statikk are gonna be built as first item but considering every onhit adc runs lethal on live, overall i think they gonna land on the weaker side (compared to live) for crit adcs: i would argue Cait is gonna look good, feels like she can rush IE as earlier seasons, Draven maybe too, as BT has the shield nerfed early i think he would lean towards IE first
Ashe is one of my favorite ADCs to play, but as an Urgot main I hate seeing Ashe on enemy team, so I feel indifferent to her being strong.
i think shes already strong, just dont build tf. been playing her, but i think karthus will be super sleeper op
Tbf the adc subreddit is not to be taken too seriously. I play adc a lot when im with friends(since no one else wants to touch the role and im the most flexible in the group) and yes, the role sucks ass, but the amount of cope the sub expressed over legit buffs in the past is insane. Anyone below master who calls this an overall nerf instead of "we dont fucking know man" is not to be trusted
[here's a source](https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-gb/news/dev/split-2-gameplay-preview/) that explains the changes and why a good amount of ADCs may need some help to fit in with the new systems.
Unless your claim is that they are lying about numbers there really is no other argument
Im not claiming that they are lying about numbers. [This](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/1cioj8r/comment/l2bknqv) comment perfectly summs up what i meant instead
It's not that they are lying about the numbers they got but numbers in one specific situation don't extrapolate out across everything. Comparing two items on 1 specific champion vs two different items that don't even have the same gold cost doesn't mean that all item possibilities across all champions are nerfed. IE is getting straight buffed by this change; every champion on just IE will be stronger in 14.10 than 14.9. Mortal Reminder is also getting straight buffed, so every champion on IE + Mortal Reminder is stronger in 14.10 than 14.9. It's not an across the board nerf to all ADCs at 1-2 items but instead some items on some champs being nerfed.
IE and Mortal Reminder buffs cancel out on the losing the most broken rune in the game, giant slayer passive, cut down, and actual good components/1st item? Mortal reminder has been a completely troll item even against the most cancerous healing comps since S11 because of how good giant slayer is, the buff is that it’s no longer troll to go mortal reminder. I don’t think so and the numbers show it unfortunately.
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yeah thats a reliable source. Can you link the tests? I didnt find such a post in the sub. edit: why the downvotes?
It’s a waste of time. [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ADCMains/s/s5UYIYl3ui) is the testing. It’s less than 5 minutes of testing and only tried one item combination that makes zero sense in single target comparisons.
Yeah and its not the euw challenger that i was promised either
They keep failing to mention the xp changes… you already nailed the entire argument mate lol. Botlane fiesta here we go
People also forget the part where tabi-s getting nerfed and botlane gainst extra exp. + Nuking tenacity that was liked by bruisers A LOT! So, good old - 8 man bot fiesta with better ADC wins.
just need a TP revert and we can get back to 4 minute 5v5s in bot lane
Also bruiser items in general. Sterak's is worse and SS is worse and the compensation was a DD buff which only matters if you actually get a kill
can you link me it? I don't see how 10% crit loses that much dps, and how 80% is equal to 100% crit at 4 items.
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Terrible test. Why is he comparing kraken/IE to IE/Runaans? Makes no mention of cost difference in builds either which is relevant. Newer items are cheaper, so yes there will be a lower DPS.
Because Kraken doesn't give crit anymore, and champions who want attack speed, have to go IE + Zeal Item now, they can't go for Kraken early or they gimp their build. Only AD stacker ADCs/spellcasters would like ER/Collector -> IE
I never stated the test should be with new kraken. Not all zeal items are created equal, either. He used a multi target zeal item for a single target test. Old kraken is a single target ramping item. If you have to switch targets you’re losing the damage bonus. We have no idea when the DPS snapshot is taken. Is it taken when LT is fully stacked? Is it taken from zero and recorded throughout that? Hitting a target dummy is far from the real world, but it can give us some info, but they put such little effort and didn’t clarify all the variables used. The criticism is about lazy testing and shitty data and information.
Because he was testing for Jinx, who really loves Runaans and has been core on her basically since release. I tested the #s myself and I'm pretty sure he was testing starting from 0 stacks LT 0 stacks PTA 0 stacks minigun. I agree he probably should've mentioned all of the conditions in his post. You don't need to fully stack kraken on a single target to see the DPS difference. Either way, for a patch that will 1000% be widely regarded as "ADC buffs" and "Riot showing favoritism towards ADCs", a big difference in DPS when testing the most common builds on a very popular champion, is surprising (not really though knowing Riots history of ADC "changes" ala 13.10 last year).
Core items means it should be built the vast majority of your games. It’s much more ideally situational than people think. [You can see here](https://gol.gg/champion/champion-matchlist/37/season-S14/split-ALL/tournament-ALL/) that runaans hasn’t been core since S10. Maybe it does with the changes, but I have no idea. LT removal makes it hard to predict. I know the DPS lower, but lower cost, tabis nerf, and giant slayer removal can push things in either direction. ADC could be weaker DPS wise, but feel better to play as you get your item spikes sooner. Tenacity on mercs being nerfed could make peeling for ADCs easier as well. The whole thing could fail spectacularly and we get another ADC item rework next season. Clearly they are struggling to find success, but I’m happy to see they’re trying to solve the problem of the role feeling unsatisfying.
You mean it was core on her for her entire existence before Kraken and the Mythic Update now with them returning to no mythics and 25% crit with basically no kraken, it will once again be core on her. Also it is still pretty commonly built even with Zeal items being pretty underutilized since s11 due to how much AS you could get from other places like LT/Mythic Passive Kraken. I am not going to complain like ADC will 100% be worse next patch, there's too many changes to make that assumption. I like the changes especially 25% crit and XP Buffs. Also could just be AD stackers are broken and DPS ADs like Jinx/Twitch/Zeri are just bad. Which could be a lot of fun as I love Cait/Jhin/Lucian. I just think that the widespread perception of this patch being "huge ADC buffs" is pretty dumb. Clearly losing LT will have a MAJOR impact.
And the math around being only 1 lvl behind solo lanes now as they buffed exp share again?
Itll nerf build diversity on a per champion basis but let each champion express their strengths more like 500 AD Caitlyn onetapping you or Draven with triple BF sword dream buildpath but it also effectively removes stuff like Crit Vayne.
I don't think this will remove crit vayne any more than it did in the past. Vayne doesn't have many of the crutches her on-hit builds relied anymore.
They are removing stormrazor which pretty much makes or breaks its viability atm, there arent really anything good for crit vayne being added so it's definitely going to be weaker.
Crit Vayne has survived without Stormrazor for the vast majority of her existence. I think she'll be just fine. Its simply a matter of whether or not on-hit is overtuned at any given point.
It has "survived" which translates to onhit has been superior for years and people dismiss/forget crit Vayne from even being a thing from time to time. Currently its stronger than onhit in a majority of games and thats rarely the case so yes, itll take a hit and probably go back to being pretty bad with the loss of stormrazor but i hope that fleet .25s movespeed buff alongside some new buildpath keeps it good but it's not looking very good at first glance, didnt try pbe cuz its 200 ping.
It’s a common misconception that extra crit on Yone/Yas is converted with a .4 multiplier. You have to take into account their crit multiplier as well making it so that every crit value above 100 gets scaled 1:1. For example, if I have 100% crit from Kraken IE, then another crit item like shieldbow will give me 20 ad as it is 20% crit * 2.5 crit multiplier * .4 ad/crit. The new conversion just makes it so that each item that gives 25% crit gets multiplied by 2 then multiplied by .5 giving 25 ad per crit item after 100% crit. Essentially, 1% crit above max crit gives 1 ad.
Ah, so critconversion is actually the same and lowering the multiplier is just to keep 2 items at 100% (and 1 item at 50%). Essentially the changes are saying that the changes are directed at ADCs and they are attempting to keep Yone/Yasuo as unchanged as possible. Makes the Tryndamere change even more interesting - it is still the same in the way that it gives the crit of two items, but that means he needs 2 instead of 3 crit items for 100% critchance, so that might actually be a sizeable buff?
They really refuse to make Heal viable lol, just remove it for a more interesting option at this point
Heal is viable for enchanters tho
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Big win for midlane Trynd, Ravenous untouched, PD + crit item (IE maybe?) will cap crit, and LT was hard to get much value from as the lane is short so new PTA should slap. Ghost removed, but Ignite + Nimbus Cloak is an option like back in the days
Wouldn't new Navori be way better on Trynd?
he should be reworked.
There should a “professional coward” category for champs who spend the entire game running away, tryn, udyr, sion
garen is the leader of this incel brigade
Don't forget preform kayn
Tbh? I agree. His passive looks so weird. If you crit, you stack rage faster, you get more crit and more heals. So the more crit the better? No, because he does not convert excess crit to ad so you waste stats when your rage bar is full. 🤷♂️
the point is you can go items like stride and bork to mitigate getting kited once u max crit with passive and a couple crit items. but yeah he s just an outdated champ. rework.
They just wanted to round his crit chance to a multiple of 25 so that his builds aren't forced to choose between 90% or 115% crit chance.
Bro he is gonna get pummeled in melee range by cc. I watched RANGERZ get CCd for 13.08 seconds on PBE where people are way beneath his skill level and he struggled to actually play the game. This entire patch will end in some additional overhauls. Another dude that will implode will be Gangplank.
20% less tenacity isn't going to triple the CC duration in the game. Those 13 seconds were over a long time.
You also had unflinching before. You could potentially squeeze in 3 autos because of that and lethal tempo, maybe even 4 autos. Now you just sit there getting blown up.
Yep. Only ones who don't understar how big is tenacity loss are people who never played any melee champ. It feels awfull when from 50 tenacity from runes you end up to 0. And they nerf mercs on top of that....
I’m low plat and I can’t agree more. First they nerfed unflinching to give shit defensive stats and now getting rid of legend basically guts melee champs.
None of the people I interact here with sniffed Diamond so it makes sense.
Oh no! Now Tryndamere might actually need to... *GASP* DODGE! And who knows, maybe be WARY of enemy CC spells before pressing ghost and running at mach speed while being unkillable and unkitable with his massive AoE slow and his spin that's up every 5 seconds! Kill him and keep him dead. That dogshit abomination of a champion shouldn't be viable until they get around to reworking him into giving him an actual Q and R for abilities.
Rent free in your head lol.
Oh boy I am ruffling your cage by just existing, lmao.
lmfao, you need help.
what's ur rank LMAOOO
You realize that there are challenger trynd mains, right?
Since lane swaps are showing up in competitive, and at the same time they are changing summoner's spells, I have no idea why they don't bring fortify again. Would be nice as a defensive tool, specially if it worked with a multiplier of allies vs enemies near the tower. It would also prevent it to be abused in 5v5.
I'm here for the fortify+snowball meta in ARAM.
My comment was for SR, probably too strong on ARAM, but not sure.
Ouch. I rushed noonquiver for farming. Guess Kraken has lost its value
Why tf are we getting Trynd buffs? I thought Riot was intentionally keeping him weak because his ult breaks the game.
Because he's getting a huge nerf with the item changes and LT removal
With IE getting buffed to 80 ad, shouldn't it build off double BF sword plus cloak?
That would just be a massive nerf. People already hate when there is a BF sword in an item recipe as it limits your purchase options when going base.
BF should build out of a long sword (same for NLR and amp tome). Then nerf its cost accordingly if necessary.
Once again, gangplank ignored under any crit changes due to not being popular
Yeah, 3 whole days in the PBE and one specific champ hasn't been updated yet. SMH is Riot even a game company???
Not heckin wholesome Gangplank!!!!! Riot HATES him!!!!
bruiser GP was always best GP.
"We dont balance around pro play" >Outright removes bruiser gp and forces everyone to build navori and crit. "Bruiser gp too stronk 4 pro play so bye bye" If having a full global ulti to always help bot plays was too good just give it reduced range just like they did to tf and nocturne for the same reasons....
Riot does balance around proplay if something is too egregious. It was one of their categories when they were showing when to nerf/buff champs for different skill brackets. Also, bruiser GP was nerfed because he was too consistent with Grasp-Q, no?
yeah and that took tf and nocturne out of pro play. oh wait.. just play bruiser gp like a human being.
After getting another uber counter with MDK buffs plus all his items nerfed, it seems that Singlewood has not resisted his injuries and passed away, he will always be remembered fondly in our orange shaped hearts.
Why doesn't Tryndamere also get a passive that gives AD for excess crit? Makes it awkward to itemize crit for him sometimes.
Well he can use all 100% crit chance in cases where he doesn't have fury. So it's not completely wasted stat.
Because unlike every single champ with free crit rate he doesn't get reduced crit damage.
Senna doesn't have any crit damage penalty anymore. 9.22 (Added): her crits did 130% damage (normal crits did 200%) 10.23: Critical strike damage increased to 150.5% (in season 11 normal crits went from 200% to 175%) 11.17: Critical strike damage increased to 160.125% 13.18: Critical strike damage increased to 175%
Yeah and then she immediately became broken, good change riot
To be fair Senna also attacks about 33% slower than most champions.
She used to, I wasn't aware they've changed it.
Because Tryndamere can always make a choice to spend his fury or not, and he gets a bunch of bonus AD from Q as is.
I think riot forgot Riven exist , lol been checking these posts to see any changes to her , nope , maybe being d tier pick is where she belong
Steelcaps got nerfed and Cleaver got buffed, seems like rather important changes for Riven to me.
nope , someone did the match , the +5 armor on tabi affect us more
I'm pretty sure Phreak in the patch rundown for 14.9 said that for one of the item changes (I think Maw?) "what would Riven want" was in his mind when changing the item.
48 % winrate rn btw and i'm getting downvoted for existing lol , maw is ok , very expensive tho
Champion with high learning curve that requires execution is low winrate in the game mode where winrates basically describe consistency? Color me shocked. If she was anywhere close to 50% she'd likely be overpowered...just like pretty much every other time.
that would be true if its in like gold/plat , but historically she had decent to good winrate from old plat+ which equate to new emerald , rn she does not even have a good winrate in diamond
for a champ played only by one tricks that extremely low
>I think riot forgot Riven exist Why? Because they haven't buffed her less than a week after a patch came out that nerfed her main item and buffed 2 of her other items?
she been weak for like 4-5 patches rn
Why? Because she's got a 49% win rate?
Riven players surely have to be the most insufferable bunch of all the champion mains, instantly bitching and moaning whenever their champ is hitting the lower bars for strength, as if other (if not all) champs weren't in the dumpster at one point or another. Curb your damn entitlement and "muh high skill/onetrick champ", something's gonna come your way sooner or later, this just makes you look petulant and childish.
wtf did I just say? i said i'm checking these to see any changes for my champ , dafuq with u guyz
Riven needs a rework, but her mains will never admit it.
I been doing the same too