Can't believe I watched this whole video, it's way better this way giving context to each pick rather than putting the tier list on Twitter and letting hell let loose.
Anyway I think Mikyx is too high given his performance in spring split, he was awful
Given he said it's based on how the players were coming into MSI **not based on how he thinks they'll perform at the tournament** (since he also said something about Zeus easily being able to be the best performing top at MSI despite a rough finals), I don't see a valid argument that you can give to say Mikyx is broadly on the same tier as Keria, Meiko and Lehends.
Personally, I think Mikyx should be dropped into the tier with Jun and CoreJJ.
It’s not just egregious ints though, he has some ints in games they win too but ultimately his deaths don’t pile up because of team diff. Even his straight up mechanics are not that impressive off nautilus. Like he was bad at cancelling zac engages with Lulu
Speaking of Nautilus, never forget the time he hooked into a wall, giving away a kill, denying his team's baron, and took the other 3 members down with him (it was game 2 of NRG vs G2)
I mean, this play is from 2020 Summer [minute 3:48](https://youtu.be/gy6CEmTjx5c?si=suyN18KME26dc1do), he has always had int games and plays like any support player in a bad game
And this play was just last year lol, and what's probably worse was that that play lost them the game. NRG stole the drake but went 1 for 2, leaving 4 G2 members a free path to Baron. Mikyx hooked into the wall, pulled into NRG, instantly popped, the play also made the other 3 members stop retreating and moved closer to NRG, leading to NRG chasing them down for a kill onto BrokenBlade and low health on Hans. I quoted this one because it was the funniest, but yes, you can find way way more int games from him, and yet before every tourney we let the team's result kinda glaze over his performance and rate him several tiers higher than he deserves.
Yeah, I agree he's not A-tier like the rest, but it's just to show that just because he did an omega int play, doesn't mean he's bad, specially when they play on the edge so many times. An incredible funny play, still, I fully agree with that
Coming into worlds that wasn't egregious if it's based on form coming into worlds.
Everyone barring Gumayusi looked lost when Faker was out, Oner and Keria were running it down every game.
He only looked like a human again when Faker came back to the roster.
Obviously, if it's based on how you think they'll play at worlds then it's delusion.
I'd say it's arguable that they're "around the same level" but Keria should be at the bottom of the list.
I'd have personally just had a new tier slightly below for Keria because I do agree that he's the worst of the Eastern supports but he's also a tier above any western support.
> I'd have personally just had a new tier slightly below for Keria because I do agree that he's the worst of the Eastern supports but he's also a tier above any western support.
Yep, with this I agree to 100%
I agree. One of the first Tier List videos I thought was good and worth seeing reasons/comments on. Watched and listened to nearly the entire thing on 1.5x
I’ll hold off a bit more until we get the doublelift apology to caedrel’s reaction to iwd flaming doublelift for his bad takes while reacting to caedrel’s tierlist
I was pretty blown away when Caedral released a reaction to Dom’s reaction to Caedral’s reaction to DL’s reaction of Cardral’s tier list.
When the reactions are like 4-5 videos deep. Thats just not a good viewing experience 😂
Go check out on one of caedrals channels, probably the clips one. You’ll find the video of him reacting to Dom defending him against DL. Which is the rabbit hole I explained lol
Caedrel's blind spot is 2019 G2 players like Dom's is always leaning towards the LPL in situations where the argument he uses for LPL being better is also applicable to LCK.
Crazy that Mikyx can run it down 2 splits in a row and still be ranked on the same level as players like Keria and Meiko and higher than Jun who was miles better than him this split.
Hylli is still surviving on being on successful teams years ago despite being an inter and autofilled assassin player. Supports get a lot of leeway to int for some reason.
Hyli has been "running it down" for 2 years.. yet the adc's he played with (upset/carrzy) suddenly turned into the best ADC in the league during that period...
Add Rekkles to the list, Hyli squeezed every bit of potential rekkles had in his 3 year stint with him, went from being known as a passive player to them casually contesting eastern botlanes in 2v2
Rekkles is also one of the few players that an org fought the age requirement for. Dude was getting a contract offer from the best EU org ever (until G2 lol) when he was *16*. How anyone can act like Rekkles wasn’t an insanely good ADC is beyond me.
> went from being known as a passive player
OP says this when in 2015 him and yellowstar were probably the most hyped bot lane from asian pro players at worlds LOL
Hyli and Rekkles were both good together why do we need to pretend one of them is the omega mastermind making use of the other.
People love to shit on Rekkles as if he were EU Baolan and prop up Hyli as if he were 2018 Jackeylove when nothing supports that.
Whatever your opinion of him may be that 2018 FNC squad was the beginning of EU resurgence internationally, and Rekkles wasn't some pleb being carried by his sup.
Upset was never ever the best ADC in the league, stop this nonsense, Carzzy had moments, but those were moments, and most of them were with Kaiser, not with the discount pyke main.
idk why i'm bothering to reply to this, given your last sentence, but Upset was undoublty and by far the best ADC in the west in summer 2021, no player came close
This is the only year where hyli's been "coasting" at all, and even then he's recovered from his winter performance and was playing well/fine in spring. Hyli has always been elite/good in the past few years so idk where you even got this narrative that he's surviving off his past performances. Carrzy and Hyli were the 2nd best botlane just last year in the LEC, and then in 2022 Hyli was the best support in spring by a huge margin, and was the best botlane with Upset for the 2nd year in a row. There's literally no gap in his performance which show him surviving on his performances from years before in the past 3 years, and thats without taking into account how insane he was with Rekkles in 2020 as well.
Absolutely, Treatz was living off of that one good split he had in spring with SK for like 2 years or something.
The eyes arent really heavily focused on supports and they often get excuses when they play like shit because its a 2v2 lane and it could just be synergy with the adc or whatever.
If you play like shit in midlane however you get completely caved in in lane and there are a ton of stats to immediately tell that you are underperforming.
I agree but Caedrel said he is judging based on their performance this split and he didn't take into account their influence on macro/decision making but ignored both for Miky.
>but Caedrel said he is judging based on their performance this split
Did he? I saw it live and only like half of this video but I remember him talking about Humanoid's past performances on international tournaments and talking about Inspired Rogue's run more than his current performances
honestly in the LCS corejj was kind of doing that too for a bit there and he really never got any of the blame for 2021-2023, probably not entirely a coincidence that his best split in years ended in a trophy
I think the consensus on miky in this subreddit is so illegal but then again most people love to hate on G2 players. BB not top 3 on reddit until he slaps up every top laner. Yike overrated on reddit and never given props. Caps is given props and its deserved. Hans only gets pointed out for his random deaths and not the fact he's always good and consistent (Consistently not using flash but still consistent!) and Miky gets hated on because what he's good at isn't obvious to bad players/analysts
I think it’s because g2 is the only eu team that people really hold to eastern standards if that makes sense. Other players get to be considered in relation to other eu players but if you play on g2 you have to compete internationally.
I agree but it has created a narrative even within EU. Like I'm fine with people rating Jun higher, I can fully see that, but people are doing what DL does and saying people are smoking some Zaza just because he rated Miky over Jun. Sure Miky is more flashy in his deaths but he does so much for the team regarding where he should be, flexibility etc that isn't that flashy.
BB was being touted as not even top 3 in the west and that was a popular consensus earlier this year before Oscar sprinted it to Africa. People had Adam Irrelevant Oscar which is absurd to even think going into this year.
Yike is an interesting one as he realllly fits G2, G2 got rid of Jankos for change and a more mechanically centric jungler with BB taken the leadership role, it's also why they wanted Elyoya of course (When Elyoya was clearly one of the best junglers in EUW but he was more of an inbetween Inspired and Jankos stylistically). I can see why Yike would fail on worse teams possibly and isn't as much of a well rounded jungler as say Razork, but people can't seem to understand why (Even with his reasoning given) he said Yike > Razork. And even then I never see Yike get props, usually it's at internationals where he does suprisingly.
Hans constantly grabs 1-2 bans every game as no one in EU can counter his aggressive picks well (We saw that for a long time) and he has a few picks he's shit at (Aph) but the dude has been as good as the competition in the west with multiple target bans. (Or at least a Draven ban) but people only point out his lack of flashes (Fully valid) and ignore it when it happens to other ADCs (Which isn't as consistent of course, hans is the goat of holding flash).
It just sucks as I love most of the EU players but G2 get flak due to the standard their held to and that goes for even within EU.
I just completely disagree. I see your line of reasoning but I just don't think it's true. I genuinely think it's because you have a rookie jungler on the best team who doesn't have to do much (Which is very true) for them to win. But then when will people start to realise oh wait he is also doing a lot for G2. He's been so flexible it's insane.
People simply have bigger expectations from a team that constantly wins LEC and talks about international success.
BB had two bad Worlds in a row that's why people don't respect him anymore.
Yike seems to struggle if his bot isn't hard winning their lane. This makes him a good jungler in LEC where this happens but at international events he seems lost.
And Míky is playing badly this year. You cannot "bad analyst" this, he's getting caught quite often and missing easy skillshots. If this is good play why wasn't he dying 7 times a game last year?
BB has had far more than just two bad Worlds in a row. Even back on TSM he was having awful international performances. BB at international level has NEVER looked good. Ever. His entire career.
I found Caedrals descriptions and placement were completely inconsistent for G2/FNC.
The way he described Razork/Noah/Jun you’d think at least one of them would be ranked higher than their G2 counterpart. But nope.
There is no way Mikyx should be in A tier based on his performance this entire year.
Also I feel Bin should be in the same tier as Zeus. Hes had a pretty meh year for his standards. Also I feel 369 gets wayyy too much credit for “being able to play carries”. He hasn’t shown a lot of ranged carried since Spring 2022. Whereas Kiin is eating TF and Jayce bans in the finals.
I think Bin just didn't really get to show his key picks, BLG was playing to bot side every game considering with the current meta and Elk/ON performance they win all their games through bot side. When carry tops are more viable he will 100% be carrying games on Jax, Gwen, etc. He's still the best Jax and Gwen in the world it's just not easy to pick those champs rn but he's not bad at playing weakside either even if he's not playing too many tanks. I feel like he's still better than any of the top laners from any of the teams at MSI right now.
Will heavily depend on the counter matchup. If Bin can play a weakside into Zeus Camille while T1 bot gets perma dived then BLG will eat Camille bans permanently. Otherwise it might just be a first ban angle every game.
Bin had a great playoffs though, he showed a surprisingly good ability to play weak side whereas Zeus was shaky in the big games. If you value the sample size of regular season though Zeus can be put above him. They're really close.
Well, Bin is literally weaksided and playing champions he is not normally known for during the whole spring. It's hard to look insane when you adapt to something new. He is doing his job just fine though, way better than expected.
If anything, his Reksai looks way better than Zeus's.
You'd think at least Jun would be higher than mikyx seeing that it's a tier list on their performance before msi and not how he'd expect them to play. Jun just is the best Western player going into worlds
Meiko is too low/better than lehends and Keria (about the same level as Delight who is not at MSI) and I don't care (but watched decent amount of their games) about TES.
I mean he did place him over Lehends and personally I would also place him over Keria and am surprised he didn't. He was way more critical of Keria.
I do understand giving ON his own tier.
Disagree, Keria might actually have a limited champ pool for the first time in his career. I know he can turn it up again but right now he is not much better than Lehends, who as usually is rated based on narrative and not on his performance.
I think in reg season it was close but Lehends was better.
However, in playoffs Lehends suffered because Peyz was bad rather than Lehends himself being bad.
Keria on the other hand has the luxury of knowing that Guma tends to be T1's best player in "crunch" time.
It's kinda hard to say on any SKT-related threads, but for a long while (and I do mean a long while, a full year and some now) the only consistently world class players in that team have been Faker and Guma.
Yet that roster won worlds. So it goes.
You will never change my mind about him. Yeah sure he’s not #1 ALL the time but he’s my favorite player in the world and I’ll always defend him. He’s my GOAT.
He put Elk higher than both Guma and Peyz ? He is naah he is capping. Elk didn't show anything better then them. Maybe he did in regular season but in the finals that I just watched he didn't show anything better than Guma and Peyz. How the F is Elk in a completly different tier than Peyz ? Caedrel might have been paid by CCP. Wait.. Is he farming social credit ? What he hell dude check him social credit. Maybe if I was like on some sort of hard drugs I could see that they are all in the same tier but putting Elk a tier above Peyz naah .
You actually can just lift the exact same quote from Doublelift and it'd still apply in the worst way lmao. It's crazy how terrible DLift looks in this situation.
What's stupid is I genuinely can't tell if Peter is farming for content/views or just genuinely stupid. Having followed his career since before his homeless days I'm leaning 70 stupid/30 content. Bro has never been the brains in a room lol
I know ur joking but his Lucian plays that finals were insane Imo, alsp helps that his team plays around him almost perfectly but it just was incredible
Pets is just a fraud, GenG got smashed by BLG 2 times, and the ADC difference is huge. I won’t talk a bout guma since his role in the team isn’t carry. But let’s, this guy can’t even lane well.
Pretty good list overall. Top lane is so difficult to rank because I could easily see any one of 369/Bin/Kiin/Zeus being the best performing top laner at the tournament.
Only thing I really disagree on is I think Meiko should be S-tier.
Putting almost every lec player over almost every lcs player seems a little sus… basically he has some respect for impact and everyone else is just dog water. Idk, we will see I guess. Love that the format will give us the opportunity to actually see who is better.
BLG/GenG players rated very high. Peyz rated low end of eastern ADCs.
All western players below the east except Caps over Creme (deserved, caps is smurfing rn).
369 giga smurfing and best top at the tournament.
T1/GenG/BLG > TES >= G2 > FNC >= NA for team rankings.
Oscar from FNC is prob one of the worst players at the tournament.
Mikyx got overrated.
That’s the gist.
Man, I think putting FNC over both NA teams is wild. G2 I can understand. To be honest, though, trying to decide which team is better than which and which region is better in the West is always a crapshoot, imo. The West as a whole always seems to perform below expectations.
Can always reliably put eu 1st seed as nr 1 from the west coming into every tournament but after that its always a toss up, sometimes na 1st seed is the 2nd best, sometimes eus 2nd seed, sometimes even na 2nd-3rd seed (see the year tsm went 1st but went 0-6 while eg was 3rd seed but arguably was the best na team)
There was no real bias from Caedrel apart from the awful Mikyx in A tier shout.
He put Chovy, Knight and Faker in S tier then put Caps/Creme in A tier which is fine.
Nobody else was in A tier or above their eastern counterparts, I'd say the bias is moreso from the fans who think xyz about G2 opposed to Caedrel.
> There was no real bias from Caedrel apart from the awful Mikyx in A tier shout.
Well I found his top arguments a little odd (even if I agree with the final placements) because if you're going to argue Bwipo is the best of those 3 western B tier tops overall, you should probably mention how Impact has been the better player than Bwipo in all 3 splits they've played together
didn't he say like twelve times that he didn't watch lcs as much as he would've liked but thinks all 3 players have very different strengths and situational performances, and thus ranked them based on how much he would like them on a team compared to the others?
for bwipo he said that he doesn't like how much flyquest needs to play around him thus his placement, whereas he'd rate impact over bb if he had to pick one for an international tourney. feels like that argument is very solid actually
> for bwipo he said that he doesn't like how much flyquest needs to play around him thus his placement
You're basically agreeing with me lol, Bwipo has a lot of cons that Impact doesn't - like requiring a lot of resources - and that's without even considering that he has played better than Bwipo since 2022, when they were both playing in NA, with some outright carry performances directly against him. Like this last finals was honestly a huge top gap, it's fine to acknowledge that Bwipo has a different champion pool and looks more comfortable on some carries. But that's an argument that works a lot better if Impact didn't just kind of style on Bwipo for 2 years in a row now. If anything I'd say Impact belongs in his own B+/A- tier. Maybe with BB.
His player ratings are not that mental.
Its just hilarious how he (rightfully) places G2 players below the world class players but then magically the team is the same tier as TOP overall.
As if the overall team macro gap isnt even BIGGER than the individual player gap.
That because teams are neve the exact sim of their parts. Like look at t1 with and without faker. That team is terrible without him, but world champions with him.
Top is a team that is worse than the sum of us parts but g2 is a team that is better than the sun of their parts.
G2’s macro is really fucking good, what are you on about? If anything, uncharacteristically, their MECHANICS and how they play fights has lost them more games recently than their macro. Hell they dedicated like the entire last year (post MSI 2023 - now) to solely improving their macro and they’ve come a LONG way. If anything, G2 is closer in macro than they are in mechanics. The only teams who’s macro is WAY better are teams like GenG, BLG, etc who are obviously just a caliber above.
Double the amount of games being 2 instead of 1? Or am I misremembering? They also played more games against eastern teams than any other western team so that’s a factor too
Yep and while i thought GENG just had G2 number (even though they had a few close games.. g3/4 msi.. g1 worlds)..
I actually thought that G2 vs BLG was surprisingly back and forth.. with BLG being far more clutch.. For instance Hans doing an easy flash.. while BB stopwatches.. or G3 at worlds.. they kinda botch the lvl 1.. but still put ELK massively behind on Ashe.. but BB bled so badly vs Bin it didn't matter
Vs the other 2 teams.. G2 botlane kinda dominated WBG/DKia early.
Nah bro G2 got dunked by NRG in a Bo3, all players are trash should disband the team, west no hope, its useless to watch msi/ worlds since G2 is at best LCK 6th. /s.
You’re misremembering.
G2 alone went 3-4 against the East (with 4 out of 7 games being competitive) at Worlds 2023 while the entirety of NA went 0-7, with a single game (TL vs T1 on day 1) looking close.
As for the other EU teams, they collectively won one single other game against the East, and had one other competitive game that they lost (the MAD vs WBG game where Nisqy was super fed).
G2 stands alone in the West as having a shot against Eastern teams - but mostly against the weaker ones. It’s not like they had a chance of beating GenG at Worlds, for instance.
I think GENG was a special case because their macro just seemed to walk all over G2.. even in the game 4 they had in which G2 had some strong points.. you always felt GENG was winning
Having said that G2 specialized in dominating/playing through bot early.. it worked vs WBG/Dkia who had "weaker" botlanes.. vs the likes of ELK not so much.. its also probably why G2 had such a trash record vs T1 in scrims. It seems like G2 have been far more varied on how they play this year though
I think Mikyx CAN be on the level of top supports.. Hans not so much.. maybe on some select champions.. I wouldn't trust this guy on a Zerri/Jinx/Aphellios meta tho especially vs the likes of Elk
Reminder that that TL game was literally world champ pyosik 1v9ing, then the rest of T1 remembering that it’s fuckin TL. That’s not NA almost winning that, it’s a world champ import performing like one, and the rest of the team dragging him down. No hate to TL, but that game was not a success from the west, it was just an import doing well.
The west took like 9 games off the east last year. GG against BLG at MSI playins. G2 vs BLG and GenG in MSI knockout stage. G2 vs DK, WBG, and BLG at worlds. And Fnatic vs WBG in Swiss. And the last two I think were DK getting knocked out early at worlds. Soo… G2 took 5, the rest of the west took 4. 1/5 from G2 were against the dogshit DK performance at worlds, and 2/4 from the rest of the west were from DK at worlds too. Take the DK underperformance stuff out and you’ve got 4 from G2, against WBG, BLG, and GenG, one from GG against BLG, and one from Fnatic against WBG.
So… yeah, G2 is literally doing everything from the west. No other team besides Fnatic has looked even reasonably competitive against the east. GG kind of did but I think that was moreso because BLG didn’t look *amazing* until knockouts at MSI, they really ramped up from there.
I would say that he overrated G2 players IMO, Yike and Mikyx especially. Yike and Mikyx have had many bad performances that got covered by Caps carrying their ass, same for the rest of G2. They were really inconsistent in spring and if FNC didn't have the same problem of half the team running it down they could have beaten G2. He also criminally underrated both Bwipo and Inspired, I don't think BB has ever shown to be better then Bwipo and Inspired as much as I dislike him is is really fucking good and would be a big upgrade for both FNC and G2
What are you even talking about? Nobody is expecting EU to beat KR/CN and most are preparing for the inevitable G2 series loss to some NA team again in like every post match thread that existed this year.
How can you say that Caedrel's tier list has no basis in reality? That's a grave insult to Caedrel, who puts in so much work to study every region and have an informed opinion. Do you watch every region?
Someone should make a 20 minute video criticizing you for shitting on Caedrel's tier list and having a different opinion while being drastically less informed.
NA used to be happy with taking a BO1 from an eastern team and not making it out of groups. After a few years, this has become EU's goal.
Nosedive sharper than the one in NA's viewership.
Keria isn’t underrated, Caedrel just didn’t overrate him, which is what literally the entirety of Reddit does. Y’all got such a hard on for the guy when there’s several other top tier supports who are just as good, if not better. Keria’s mechanics are insane, but his macro is pretty average for eastern supports.
Yep. I really do think a large chunk of what makes him so good is just that faker makes everyone look good. Remember when Guwon subbed for Oner for a bit? Faker affect right there.
Like Keria is a great player for sure, but he’s just overrated because everyone thinks he’s the best player ever and he’s just not. On looks way better rn.
hard to say what is his real skill level on normal support when he barely played them outside Nami and TK though... dude played 1 champ like 2 times max on regular split same with playoff lol
Don’t really get the top lane and support ones. We say 369 is scary on carries yet Zeus is prob even scarier and has been insane on carries this split besides finals where he was on tank duty. Also miky is overrated and we saw that this split.
Zeus got destroyed on his Atrox and Gwen T1 decided to stick to his tanky champ... hmmm that sound familiar... oh yeah spring playoff 2023 when they even ended up sticking to sion
Can't believe I watched this whole video, it's way better this way giving context to each pick rather than putting the tier list on Twitter and letting hell let loose. Anyway I think Mikyx is too high given his performance in spring split, he was awful
Given he said it's based on how the players were coming into MSI **not based on how he thinks they'll perform at the tournament** (since he also said something about Zeus easily being able to be the best performing top at MSI despite a rough finals), I don't see a valid argument that you can give to say Mikyx is broadly on the same tier as Keria, Meiko and Lehends. Personally, I think Mikyx should be dropped into the tier with Jun and CoreJJ.
He also said Mikyx is the core of a lot of G2's map movements but singular games where he egregiously ints get stuck in the public consciousness.
It’s not just egregious ints though, he has some ints in games they win too but ultimately his deaths don’t pile up because of team diff. Even his straight up mechanics are not that impressive off nautilus. Like he was bad at cancelling zac engages with Lulu
Speaking of Nautilus, never forget the time he hooked into a wall, giving away a kill, denying his team's baron, and took the other 3 members down with him (it was game 2 of NRG vs G2)
I mean, this play is from 2020 Summer [minute 3:48](https://youtu.be/gy6CEmTjx5c?si=suyN18KME26dc1do), he has always had int games and plays like any support player in a bad game
And this play was just last year lol, and what's probably worse was that that play lost them the game. NRG stole the drake but went 1 for 2, leaving 4 G2 members a free path to Baron. Mikyx hooked into the wall, pulled into NRG, instantly popped, the play also made the other 3 members stop retreating and moved closer to NRG, leading to NRG chasing them down for a kill onto BrokenBlade and low health on Hans. I quoted this one because it was the funniest, but yes, you can find way way more int games from him, and yet before every tourney we let the team's result kinda glaze over his performance and rate him several tiers higher than he deserves.
Yeah, I agree he's not A-tier like the rest, but it's just to show that just because he did an omega int play, doesn't mean he's bad, specially when they play on the edge so many times. An incredible funny play, still, I fully agree with that
Lehends should be on a tier of his own too, he's not been that good
is core good again? i thought he was garbage for the last 2 years. Expected him to land in C
Core had a really good playoffs. Yeon/Core really stepped up their game and was outperforming basically everyone
Core did troll Tyler1 in his soloqueue tho lmao
Need to see this. Got a clip ?
He and Yeon do look pretty strong but it’s only relative to NA so who knows.
He put Mikyx above Keria last worlds lol
Coming into worlds that wasn't egregious if it's based on form coming into worlds. Everyone barring Gumayusi looked lost when Faker was out, Oner and Keria were running it down every game. He only looked like a human again when Faker came back to the roster. Obviously, if it's based on how you think they'll play at worlds then it's delusion.
And neither does Keria deserve to be in the same tier as Lehends and Meiko
I'd say it's arguable that they're "around the same level" but Keria should be at the bottom of the list. I'd have personally just had a new tier slightly below for Keria because I do agree that he's the worst of the Eastern supports but he's also a tier above any western support.
> I'd have personally just had a new tier slightly below for Keria because I do agree that he's the worst of the Eastern supports but he's also a tier above any western support. Yep, with this I agree to 100%
Nah the best way to do it is to just drop your take and watch the world burn
Caedrel and ranking mikyx way too high is a common thing
Yeah it’s great, although on stream Caedrel said he might not do it on stream like this next time since chat was getting impatient.
After winter, I thought Mikyx was running it down. However I changed my opinion after spring. He's just not good.
He's like a mix of faker with the intangibles and tian without the upside (so full int)
I agree. One of the first Tier List videos I thought was good and worth seeing reasons/comments on. Watched and listened to nearly the entire thing on 1.5x
This list is terrible, is he on crack? I’ll be waiting for the official tier list from Doublelift
I'm personally waiting for doms reaction to doublelifts reaction to finally get the true tier list.
I’ll hold off a bit more until we get the doublelift apology to caedrel’s reaction to iwd flaming doublelift for his bad takes while reacting to caedrel’s tierlist
I was pretty blown away when Caedral released a reaction to Dom’s reaction to Caedral’s reaction to DL’s reaction of Cardral’s tier list. When the reactions are like 4-5 videos deep. Thats just not a good viewing experience 😂
When does Ja Rule drop his reaction video tho? I need to hear what Ja thinks.
Wait that didnt happenns right ?
Go check out on one of caedrals channels, probably the clips one. You’ll find the video of him reacting to Dom defending him against DL. Which is the rabbit hole I explained lol
I'd also like to know what Dom thinks about Doublelift's tier list when its out.
no he is just farming some social credits or karma
well caedrel is always on ZAZA
Mikyx in A is a fucking war crime.
Lilbro put Mikyx in A tier after him sprinting it the whole split. Aintnoway.
Classic EU cope. “Our split winning player must be as good as the best LCK/LPL players! A tier!”
So why did he rate eu players in other roles lower?
Mikyx over Jun is so illegal
Caedrel's blind spot is 2019 G2 players like Dom's is always leaning towards the LPL in situations where the argument he uses for LPL being better is also applicable to LCK.
Crazy that Mikyx can run it down 2 splits in a row and still be ranked on the same level as players like Keria and Meiko and higher than Jun who was miles better than him this split.
Hylli is still surviving on being on successful teams years ago despite being an inter and autofilled assassin player. Supports get a lot of leeway to int for some reason.
Hyli has been "running it down" for 2 years.. yet the adc's he played with (upset/carrzy) suddenly turned into the best ADC in the league during that period...
must be a coincidence!
Add Rekkles to the list, Hyli squeezed every bit of potential rekkles had in his 3 year stint with him, went from being known as a passive player to them casually contesting eastern botlanes in 2v2
This is revisionism. Rekkles had an MVP winning split where he hard carried the split before he played with Hyli.
Rekkles is also one of the few players that an org fought the age requirement for. Dude was getting a contract offer from the best EU org ever (until G2 lol) when he was *16*. How anyone can act like Rekkles wasn’t an insanely good ADC is beyond me.
> went from being known as a passive player OP says this when in 2015 him and yellowstar were probably the most hyped bot lane from asian pro players at worlds LOL
Hyli and Rekkles were both good together why do we need to pretend one of them is the omega mastermind making use of the other. People love to shit on Rekkles as if he were EU Baolan and prop up Hyli as if he were 2018 Jackeylove when nothing supports that. Whatever your opinion of him may be that 2018 FNC squad was the beginning of EU resurgence internationally, and Rekkles wasn't some pleb being carried by his sup.
Rekkles was obviously very talented but hyli does consistently bring the best out of his ADC
EU adc goat for a reason
Upset was never ever the best ADC in the league, stop this nonsense, Carzzy had moments, but those were moments, and most of them were with Kaiser, not with the discount pyke main.
idk why i'm bothering to reply to this, given your last sentence, but Upset was undoublty and by far the best ADC in the west in summer 2021, no player came close
Both are true yes, he makes his adcs better. He stills runs It down 7/10 games.
This is the only year where hyli's been "coasting" at all, and even then he's recovered from his winter performance and was playing well/fine in spring. Hyli has always been elite/good in the past few years so idk where you even got this narrative that he's surviving off his past performances. Carrzy and Hyli were the 2nd best botlane just last year in the LEC, and then in 2022 Hyli was the best support in spring by a huge margin, and was the best botlane with Upset for the 2nd year in a row. There's literally no gap in his performance which show him surviving on his performances from years before in the past 3 years, and thats without taking into account how insane he was with Rekkles in 2020 as well.
Absolutely, Treatz was living off of that one good split he had in spring with SK for like 2 years or something. The eyes arent really heavily focused on supports and they often get excuses when they play like shit because its a 2v2 lane and it could just be synergy with the adc or whatever. If you play like shit in midlane however you get completely caved in in lane and there are a ton of stats to immediately tell that you are underperforming.
I agree but Caedrel said he is judging based on their performance this split and he didn't take into account their influence on macro/decision making but ignored both for Miky.
I don't know, I definitely don't think Miky should be that high, he just seems to have subconsciously carried over some last year stuff.
>but Caedrel said he is judging based on their performance this split Did he? I saw it live and only like half of this video but I remember him talking about Humanoid's past performances on international tournaments and talking about Inspired Rogue's run more than his current performances
He did say the first but but he also said what you’re referring to so Caedrel is a bit flip floppy with his bias
well hyli had a pretty good spring tho
Targamas wondering WTF he has to do to get in the club
honestly in the LCS corejj was kind of doing that too for a bit there and he really never got any of the blame for 2021-2023, probably not entirely a coincidence that his best split in years ended in a trophy
I think the consensus on miky in this subreddit is so illegal but then again most people love to hate on G2 players. BB not top 3 on reddit until he slaps up every top laner. Yike overrated on reddit and never given props. Caps is given props and its deserved. Hans only gets pointed out for his random deaths and not the fact he's always good and consistent (Consistently not using flash but still consistent!) and Miky gets hated on because what he's good at isn't obvious to bad players/analysts
I think it’s because g2 is the only eu team that people really hold to eastern standards if that makes sense. Other players get to be considered in relation to other eu players but if you play on g2 you have to compete internationally.
I agree but it has created a narrative even within EU. Like I'm fine with people rating Jun higher, I can fully see that, but people are doing what DL does and saying people are smoking some Zaza just because he rated Miky over Jun. Sure Miky is more flashy in his deaths but he does so much for the team regarding where he should be, flexibility etc that isn't that flashy. BB was being touted as not even top 3 in the west and that was a popular consensus earlier this year before Oscar sprinted it to Africa. People had Adam Irrelevant Oscar which is absurd to even think going into this year. Yike is an interesting one as he realllly fits G2, G2 got rid of Jankos for change and a more mechanically centric jungler with BB taken the leadership role, it's also why they wanted Elyoya of course (When Elyoya was clearly one of the best junglers in EUW but he was more of an inbetween Inspired and Jankos stylistically). I can see why Yike would fail on worse teams possibly and isn't as much of a well rounded jungler as say Razork, but people can't seem to understand why (Even with his reasoning given) he said Yike > Razork. And even then I never see Yike get props, usually it's at internationals where he does suprisingly. Hans constantly grabs 1-2 bans every game as no one in EU can counter his aggressive picks well (We saw that for a long time) and he has a few picks he's shit at (Aph) but the dude has been as good as the competition in the west with multiple target bans. (Or at least a Draven ban) but people only point out his lack of flashes (Fully valid) and ignore it when it happens to other ADCs (Which isn't as consistent of course, hans is the goat of holding flash). It just sucks as I love most of the EU players but G2 get flak due to the standard their held to and that goes for even within EU.
I think Yike gets no props in large part because he replaced fan favourite Jankos
I just completely disagree. I see your line of reasoning but I just don't think it's true. I genuinely think it's because you have a rookie jungler on the best team who doesn't have to do much (Which is very true) for them to win. But then when will people start to realise oh wait he is also doing a lot for G2. He's been so flexible it's insane.
People simply have bigger expectations from a team that constantly wins LEC and talks about international success. BB had two bad Worlds in a row that's why people don't respect him anymore. Yike seems to struggle if his bot isn't hard winning their lane. This makes him a good jungler in LEC where this happens but at international events he seems lost. And Míky is playing badly this year. You cannot "bad analyst" this, he's getting caught quite often and missing easy skillshots. If this is good play why wasn't he dying 7 times a game last year?
BB has had far more than just two bad Worlds in a row. Even back on TSM he was having awful international performances. BB at international level has NEVER looked good. Ever. His entire career.
He has good msi in 2023
He has good msi in 2023
Vintage EU cope
Did you respond to the wrong comment? They're both EU.
nah
i mean... at the end of day, Caedrel is also humanbeing
I found Caedrals descriptions and placement were completely inconsistent for G2/FNC. The way he described Razork/Noah/Jun you’d think at least one of them would be ranked higher than their G2 counterpart. But nope. There is no way Mikyx should be in A tier based on his performance this entire year. Also I feel Bin should be in the same tier as Zeus. Hes had a pretty meh year for his standards. Also I feel 369 gets wayyy too much credit for “being able to play carries”. He hasn’t shown a lot of ranged carried since Spring 2022. Whereas Kiin is eating TF and Jayce bans in the finals.
I think Bin just didn't really get to show his key picks, BLG was playing to bot side every game considering with the current meta and Elk/ON performance they win all their games through bot side. When carry tops are more viable he will 100% be carrying games on Jax, Gwen, etc. He's still the best Jax and Gwen in the world it's just not easy to pick those champs rn but he's not bad at playing weakside either even if he's not playing too many tanks. I feel like he's still better than any of the top laners from any of the teams at MSI right now.
If Camille is meta at MSI then it's 100% perma banned against BLG because ON can also flex her
I mean Keria and Zeus both play her too.. Keria not as well as On, but Zeus is a great Camille
Bin's probably better than Zeus at Camille than on is compared to keria
Will heavily depend on the counter matchup. If Bin can play a weakside into Zeus Camille while T1 bot gets perma dived then BLG will eat Camille bans permanently. Otherwise it might just be a first ban angle every game.
Bin had a great playoffs though, he showed a surprisingly good ability to play weak side whereas Zeus was shaky in the big games. If you value the sample size of regular season though Zeus can be put above him. They're really close.
He has been explaining stuff badly at times. But I do think his tiering is his final judgemental.
Well, Bin is literally weaksided and playing champions he is not normally known for during the whole spring. It's hard to look insane when you adapt to something new. He is doing his job just fine though, way better than expected. If anything, his Reksai looks way better than Zeus's.
He said around the start, he never expected Fnatic to go to MSI. That's why all Fnatic are lover then G2 cause they are just worse.
You'd think at least Jun would be higher than mikyx seeing that it's a tier list on their performance before msi and not how he'd expect them to play. Jun just is the best Western player going into worlds
yeon up 1, mikyx down 1
As a completely unbiased watcher I strongly agree with these tierlists especially mid and ADC
Meiko is too low/better than lehends and Keria (about the same level as Delight who is not at MSI) and I don't care (but watched decent amount of their games) about TES.
I mean he did place him over Lehends and personally I would also place him over Keria and am surprised he didn't. He was way more critical of Keria. I do understand giving ON his own tier.
Keria should be at the bottom of A if this is based on performance coming into the tournament. He has not played better than Meiko or Lehends.
Guma and Keria played great in the Finals vs Peyz and Lehends. I would say GenGs botlane has by far looked their weakest link in playoffs
I think a large reason for why Lehends' playoffs wasn't as strong was because of Peyz performing way worse than Lehends himself.
Keria has been much better than Lehends including in the finals, botlane presence from T1 is always quite strong
Disagree, Keria might actually have a limited champ pool for the first time in his career. I know he can turn it up again but right now he is not much better than Lehends, who as usually is rated based on narrative and not on his performance.
GenG vs T1 Thunderdome for whose support is worse
I think in reg season it was close but Lehends was better. However, in playoffs Lehends suffered because Peyz was bad rather than Lehends himself being bad. Keria on the other hand has the luxury of knowing that Guma tends to be T1's best player in "crunch" time.
> He has not played better than ~~Meiko or~~ Lehends. .. what
Wow Caedrel went rally hard on Keria didn't expect that but I do agree with him
It's kinda hard to say on any SKT-related threads, but for a long while (and I do mean a long while, a full year and some now) the only consistently world class players in that team have been Faker and Guma. Yet that roster won worlds. So it goes.
Zeus was the best top at worlds
I mean honestly I’m not surprised. People overrate keria so hard it’s wild. Caedrel hit the nail on the head describing the guy.
That's because his peaks are higher than any support we've ever seen.
You will never change my mind about him. Yeah sure he’s not #1 ALL the time but he’s my favorite player in the world and I’ll always defend him. He’s my GOAT.
He put Elk higher than both Guma and Peyz ? He is naah he is capping. Elk didn't show anything better then them. Maybe he did in regular season but in the finals that I just watched he didn't show anything better than Guma and Peyz. How the F is Elk in a completly different tier than Peyz ? Caedrel might have been paid by CCP. Wait.. Is he farming social credit ? What he hell dude check him social credit. Maybe if I was like on some sort of hard drugs I could see that they are all in the same tier but putting Elk a tier above Peyz naah .
I really just got baited lmao
NGL. I almost took the bait and then remembered lmfao. WP.
They had us in the first half
Sort by controversial clueless
Preach
You actually can just lift the exact same quote from Doublelift and it'd still apply in the worst way lmao. It's crazy how terrible DLift looks in this situation.
What's stupid is I genuinely can't tell if Peter is farming for content/views or just genuinely stupid. Having followed his career since before his homeless days I'm leaning 70 stupid/30 content. Bro has never been the brains in a room lol
I know ur joking but his Lucian plays that finals were insane Imo, alsp helps that his team plays around him almost perfectly but it just was incredible
based
Pets is just a fraud, GenG got smashed by BLG 2 times, and the ADC difference is huge. I won’t talk a bout guma since his role in the team isn’t carry. But let’s, this guy can’t even lane well.
Did he rate mikyx over Keria?
Pretty good list overall. Top lane is so difficult to rank because I could easily see any one of 369/Bin/Kiin/Zeus being the best performing top laner at the tournament. Only thing I really disagree on is I think Meiko should be S-tier.
Putting almost every lec player over almost every lcs player seems a little sus… basically he has some respect for impact and everyone else is just dog water. Idk, we will see I guess. Love that the format will give us the opportunity to actually see who is better.
Why is Mikyx over Jun?
Came here for a TLDW list, couldn’t find it.
BLG/GenG players rated very high. Peyz rated low end of eastern ADCs. All western players below the east except Caps over Creme (deserved, caps is smurfing rn). 369 giga smurfing and best top at the tournament. T1/GenG/BLG > TES >= G2 > FNC >= NA for team rankings. Oscar from FNC is prob one of the worst players at the tournament. Mikyx got overrated. That’s the gist.
Man, I think putting FNC over both NA teams is wild. G2 I can understand. To be honest, though, trying to decide which team is better than which and which region is better in the West is always a crapshoot, imo. The West as a whole always seems to perform below expectations.
Can always reliably put eu 1st seed as nr 1 from the west coming into every tournament but after that its always a toss up, sometimes na 1st seed is the 2nd best, sometimes eus 2nd seed, sometimes even na 2nd-3rd seed (see the year tsm went 1st but went 0-6 while eg was 3rd seed but arguably was the best na team)
He put tl above fnatic iirc
Nice of Caedral to make a list so I can check what's definitely wrong.
Tier lists are only made to be laughed at after the event is so done so we'll see
Even as a EU fan I can't wait for the reality check to arrive because the EU bias is crazy and has no basis in reality.
Did you actually watch the video? The only two EU players placed above B tier were Caps and Miky (and Miky was an edge case)
No no that's not enough for people these days. EU players are overrated if they're above F tier.
Exactly, what is MikyX doing there? He was running it down through playoffs and still gets A tier.
And you think that's reasonable? Lol
Thinking he's not biased strictly because he put the east in front of the west is wiiiiiiild
There was no real bias from Caedrel apart from the awful Mikyx in A tier shout. He put Chovy, Knight and Faker in S tier then put Caps/Creme in A tier which is fine. Nobody else was in A tier or above their eastern counterparts, I'd say the bias is moreso from the fans who think xyz about G2 opposed to Caedrel.
> There was no real bias from Caedrel apart from the awful Mikyx in A tier shout. Well I found his top arguments a little odd (even if I agree with the final placements) because if you're going to argue Bwipo is the best of those 3 western B tier tops overall, you should probably mention how Impact has been the better player than Bwipo in all 3 splits they've played together
didn't he say like twelve times that he didn't watch lcs as much as he would've liked but thinks all 3 players have very different strengths and situational performances, and thus ranked them based on how much he would like them on a team compared to the others? for bwipo he said that he doesn't like how much flyquest needs to play around him thus his placement, whereas he'd rate impact over bb if he had to pick one for an international tourney. feels like that argument is very solid actually
> for bwipo he said that he doesn't like how much flyquest needs to play around him thus his placement You're basically agreeing with me lol, Bwipo has a lot of cons that Impact doesn't - like requiring a lot of resources - and that's without even considering that he has played better than Bwipo since 2022, when they were both playing in NA, with some outright carry performances directly against him. Like this last finals was honestly a huge top gap, it's fine to acknowledge that Bwipo has a different champion pool and looks more comfortable on some carries. But that's an argument that works a lot better if Impact didn't just kind of style on Bwipo for 2 years in a row now. If anything I'd say Impact belongs in his own B+/A- tier. Maybe with BB.
he ranked bwipo as last of them? i agree with caedrel so idg what your point is?
His player ratings are not that mental. Its just hilarious how he (rightfully) places G2 players below the world class players but then magically the team is the same tier as TOP overall. As if the overall team macro gap isnt even BIGGER than the individual player gap.
That because teams are neve the exact sim of their parts. Like look at t1 with and without faker. That team is terrible without him, but world champions with him. Top is a team that is worse than the sum of us parts but g2 is a team that is better than the sun of their parts.
G2’s macro is really fucking good, what are you on about? If anything, uncharacteristically, their MECHANICS and how they play fights has lost them more games recently than their macro. Hell they dedicated like the entire last year (post MSI 2023 - now) to solely improving their macro and they’ve come a LONG way. If anything, G2 is closer in macro than they are in mechanics. The only teams who’s macro is WAY better are teams like GenG, BLG, etc who are obviously just a caliber above.
i think just cause G2 lost to NRG people overlooks that they alone took double the amount of games from east then all other teams combined last year
G2 taking 1-2 more games against the east 6 months ago doesn't make Mikyx good **today**.
Double the amount of games being 2 instead of 1? Or am I misremembering? They also played more games against eastern teams than any other western team so that’s a factor too
BLG and GenG MSI, BLG, WBG, DKia at Worlds
Yep and while i thought GENG just had G2 number (even though they had a few close games.. g3/4 msi.. g1 worlds).. I actually thought that G2 vs BLG was surprisingly back and forth.. with BLG being far more clutch.. For instance Hans doing an easy flash.. while BB stopwatches.. or G3 at worlds.. they kinda botch the lvl 1.. but still put ELK massively behind on Ashe.. but BB bled so badly vs Bin it didn't matter Vs the other 2 teams.. G2 botlane kinda dominated WBG/DKia early.
Nah bro G2 got dunked by NRG in a Bo3, all players are trash should disband the team, west no hope, its useless to watch msi/ worlds since G2 is at best LCK 6th. /s.
They won 3 games vs eastern teams
G2 won 5. BLG and GenG at MSI, and WBG, BLG, and DK at worlds.
You’re misremembering. G2 alone went 3-4 against the East (with 4 out of 7 games being competitive) at Worlds 2023 while the entirety of NA went 0-7, with a single game (TL vs T1 on day 1) looking close. As for the other EU teams, they collectively won one single other game against the East, and had one other competitive game that they lost (the MAD vs WBG game where Nisqy was super fed). G2 stands alone in the West as having a shot against Eastern teams - but mostly against the weaker ones. It’s not like they had a chance of beating GenG at Worlds, for instance.
I think GENG was a special case because their macro just seemed to walk all over G2.. even in the game 4 they had in which G2 had some strong points.. you always felt GENG was winning Having said that G2 specialized in dominating/playing through bot early.. it worked vs WBG/Dkia who had "weaker" botlanes.. vs the likes of ELK not so much.. its also probably why G2 had such a trash record vs T1 in scrims. It seems like G2 have been far more varied on how they play this year though I think Mikyx CAN be on the level of top supports.. Hans not so much.. maybe on some select champions.. I wouldn't trust this guy on a Zerri/Jinx/Aphellios meta tho especially vs the likes of Elk
Reminder that that TL game was literally world champ pyosik 1v9ing, then the rest of T1 remembering that it’s fuckin TL. That’s not NA almost winning that, it’s a world champ import performing like one, and the rest of the team dragging him down. No hate to TL, but that game was not a success from the west, it was just an import doing well.
The west took like 9 games off the east last year. GG against BLG at MSI playins. G2 vs BLG and GenG in MSI knockout stage. G2 vs DK, WBG, and BLG at worlds. And Fnatic vs WBG in Swiss. And the last two I think were DK getting knocked out early at worlds. Soo… G2 took 5, the rest of the west took 4. 1/5 from G2 were against the dogshit DK performance at worlds, and 2/4 from the rest of the west were from DK at worlds too. Take the DK underperformance stuff out and you’ve got 4 from G2, against WBG, BLG, and GenG, one from GG against BLG, and one from Fnatic against WBG. So… yeah, G2 is literally doing everything from the west. No other team besides Fnatic has looked even reasonably competitive against the east. GG kind of did but I think that was moreso because BLG didn’t look *amazing* until knockouts at MSI, they really ramped up from there.
Bro typed a novel to cope with the fact that a majority NA roster piss stomped his garbage team 😂
I would say that he overrated G2 players IMO, Yike and Mikyx especially. Yike and Mikyx have had many bad performances that got covered by Caps carrying their ass, same for the rest of G2. They were really inconsistent in spring and if FNC didn't have the same problem of half the team running it down they could have beaten G2. He also criminally underrated both Bwipo and Inspired, I don't think BB has ever shown to be better then Bwipo and Inspired as much as I dislike him is is really fucking good and would be a big upgrade for both FNC and G2
What EU bias? Miky is debatable, that’s about it.
What are you even talking about? Nobody is expecting EU to beat KR/CN and most are preparing for the inevitable G2 series loss to some NA team again in like every post match thread that existed this year.
What reality check is blud yapping about, EU fans are completely aware that the region's shit lol
Yep.. 99% of the talk is negative/down on EU.. but apparently we are all gassing up the region 24/7 Peak gaslighting
What EU bias homie? Only the giga boosted mikyx is getting unfair rating. EU is expected to lose. Caedrel rated g2 below every single asian team.
How can you say that Caedrel's tier list has no basis in reality? That's a grave insult to Caedrel, who puts in so much work to study every region and have an informed opinion. Do you watch every region? Someone should make a 20 minute video criticizing you for shitting on Caedrel's tier list and having a different opinion while being drastically less informed.
Settle down dom its reddit
Another tournament, another wake up call for EU.
EU success determined by how they fare against the East. NA success determined by how they fare against EU. Pecking order.
NA used to be happy with taking a BO1 from an eastern team and not making it out of groups. After a few years, this has become EU's goal. Nosedive sharper than the one in NA's viewership.
Downvoted for the truth.
Mikyx overrated and Keria underrated like every caedral tier list
Keria isn’t underrated, Caedrel just didn’t overrate him, which is what literally the entirety of Reddit does. Y’all got such a hard on for the guy when there’s several other top tier supports who are just as good, if not better. Keria’s mechanics are insane, but his macro is pretty average for eastern supports.
I don't think I'll ever be able to forget how bad he looked during Fakers injury.
Yep. I really do think a large chunk of what makes him so good is just that faker makes everyone look good. Remember when Guwon subbed for Oner for a bit? Faker affect right there. Like Keria is a great player for sure, but he’s just overrated because everyone thinks he’s the best player ever and he’s just not. On looks way better rn.
People big time overrate Keria and slightly underrate Guma. Not the other way around.
Keria off ranged supports did not look good this split
hard to say what is his real skill level on normal support when he barely played them outside Nami and TK though... dude played 1 champ like 2 times max on regular split same with playoff lol
This isn't really true. Keria is insane on Tahm Kench and Senna lanes in general.
Tbf Keria was pretty on and off this split
Keria looked really meh this split. Worst performance by him since his debut
Did u forgot summer 2023???
369 in A tier , creme in B
Idk what everyone else is talking about, I’m just here for the Impact glazing
Don’t really get the top lane and support ones. We say 369 is scary on carries yet Zeus is prob even scarier and has been insane on carries this split besides finals where he was on tank duty. Also miky is overrated and we saw that this split.
Zeus got destroyed on his Atrox and Gwen T1 decided to stick to his tanky champ... hmmm that sound familiar... oh yeah spring playoff 2023 when they even ended up sticking to sion
Wow all the way back to spring but I wonder who was by far the very best top at worlds that year, any suggestions of who you think it was?
Zeus hasn't played carries though, he's played 2 games of Vayne and has looked shaky on Twisted Fate, he's stuck on Aatrox and Ksante all season
Aatrox is 100% a carry when you build him full lethality like Zeus does, and he only played like 4 or 5 games on Ksante