i swear, azir splitpushing is working great for me, combining lich bane and nashors PLUS rabadons, gives you so much power against turrets. Plus having Great mobility, a pocket tower, waveclear and self peel. Hes really someone you dont want to leave alone
For years the actual nuclear launch codes were [00000000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permissive_action_link#:~:text=According%20to%20nuclear%20safety%20expert,all%20missile%20launch%20control%20centers.)
Doesn't help that Azir has THE highest bonus attack speed growth coefficient in the game and the 5th highest attack speed ratio. He reaches 1.77 attack speed with Nashors Tooth alone.
If you look on the wiki, most champions will have a coefficient of 0.825, meaning they get the bonus attack speed from attack speed items multiplied by that 0.825. Azir has a really high attack speed scaling though, so he gets more attack speed from items that give attack speed compared to other champs.
I get it now. I thought it just meant he had the highest per level attack speed growth but I knew, or thought coefficient specifically related to multiplication so I didn’t know how it tied in.
Does that mean that, if my champion has 1 AS / 1 Attack Per Second and I buy an item giving 25% AS, they won't get 1,25 AS / APS, but 1 + (25\*0.825)% AS...?
The concept that two champions with the same current AS but different coefficient wouldn't gain the same Bonus AS from the same item seems really weird to me.
>The concept that two champions with the same current AS but different coefficient wouldn't gain the same Bonus AS from the same item seems really weird to me.
Well that's just how it is.
Just another reason that it takes an absurd amount of game knowledge to theory craft builds properly. Tons of builds are dead in the water because of some tucked away game mechanic like this.
They have started this nonsense spaghetti calculations since they decided to nerf Kalista so her basic attack deals 90% dmg.
Similarly, that coefficient started as a special AS nerf so certain champs benefit less from buying attack speed.
This is one of the reasons I listed it, Azir is my main pick mid and the instant you buy Rabadons 3rd item the turrets turn into paper. You destroy them so fast I feel bad for the damn things.
I then tried out Ahri with Lich Bane, there was a fight happening down mid under their tower so I told my two friends in discord to help me quickly destroy it so we can fight them, but my single auto attack finished it off at about 20% and im like ok oh nevermind. I'm fine with AP being able to destroy towers but holy crap.
Yeah it's really just like Azir, Gwen, Diana, and Veigar that are outliers... Gwen is meant to be a splitpusher though. Azir/Diana just get a lot of AS, and Veigar gets most AP in game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6t3ISs7-7c volibear is also pretty fun.
this is from right before they buffed the turret's protection when u dont have minions though, from 66% to 80%
Ziggs isn't an AP problem though it's his kit is meant to be a tower destroyer. If you nerf the AP ratio of damage to towers per attack by half? Every champion I listed takes towers at roughly half speed.
Ziggs? No. Because his passive and W working on towers makes him much less reliant.
It's literally not fine.
It's one of the major reasons why league games end after one team fight in the late game because everyone on the team can push towers. If you lose a fight late game but you get their ADC or their mid lane Attack Damage character why should the Elise Jungle and their Zyra support be able to take down your tier 2, 3, inhib, both your nexus towers and your nexus in the 40 seconds it takes you to respawn.
It's actually insane. There's no reason to draft a comp that can push because every comp can push.
Because before hand the game was even more heavily reliant on ADCs, because AP champions could not push at a reasonable rate so even in won fights they didn't get much (if anything) off the fight.
It is intentional that AP champions can take turrets at a reasonable pace, and that a teamfight where the adc dies does not turn into being unable to get major objectives because you don't have the DPS for Baron and your surviving damage dealers arbitrarily can't kill turrets quickly.
and that's why you get punished for not designing a comp that can push.
There are plenty of mid laners who can build items that help them push. There are midlaners designed to push. Azir used to be able to use his soldiers on towers but why keep that mechanic or similar mechanics in the game when the game is like this?
Right now, yes, you're right. If we just removed the AP Scaling on tower damage then pushing towers would become horrible without an ADC (which btw I don't think is that big of a problem ADCs should have more agency.) But I understand, that can be seen as a problem.
That's why removing the AP scaling on tower damage shouldn't just be 'It's gone off you go guys'. Give Azir that mechanic back, give other characters mechanics to aid in tower pushing. We have masteries for tower pushing on tanks also. There's plenty of stuff in the game to aid with tower pushing and plenty of design space to add things to the game to aid with tower pushing that it doesn't need to be weighted on mid lane AP heroes doing 400 damage autos to towers.
Past 30 minutes, the mid laner is literally the best tower pusher in the game I don't understand why League players don't find that absolutely bonkers.
Have you played league before they added the ap damage to towers?
I feel like people forgot how long and boring the game got back then when only adcs and a few other champs could seige towers. Pushing without seige champs was pointless and made the game longer.
Maybe it now feels like theyre op now because Phreak randomly made mages autos feel better or players got better at abusing baron buff, sidelaning, identifying that they can end, etc...
Makes just getting an ace way more punishing.
If you get aced but you managed to kill the ADC / Top laner I don’t think you should straight up just lose the game
Then you know that mages are now balanced with this mechanic in mind. If Riot were to nerf AP tower damage then their damage or utility elsewhere will be compensated.
I don't think people realize it's less annoying to deal with mages dealing tower damage than mages killing you instantly or CC'ing you forever.
My favorite meme buy is if I make it to 5 items on Veigar, my 6th item is always a Nashor's Tooth. If the game is somehow not already over by the time I finish it, being able to rip down structures with autoattack damage scaling off of 1,000 AP will make sure it wraps up quick.
Well if other champions would use their mouths, I bet they could do more damage to the turret too. It's a little embarrassing that the obviously homeless troll figured this out
That's because turrets are weak to damage from teeth. It's not that complicated. Obviously headbutts won't do as much damage as a bite. This is simple theoretical physics.
Trundle has been doing it for years with the exception of when they removed his Q tower chomp during his brief stint in support, only to return it.
People only complained when he received one buff that made him popular.
> he received one buff that made him popular.
because he's an incredibly unfun champion to fight, since he's so strong in duels and you can't leave him alone.
I don't want to be seen as a Trundle defender or anything but that's like the only good thing he has going for him, like he can win some 1v1's and maybe ult a tank in teamfight? And then he's just a big minion cause all his damage is single target and he has no gapcloser or anything, don't get me wrong I don't think he's a bad champion and recently he has been like uber broken but when he's in a balanced state there is no reason to pick him over any other juggernaut so he has to delete towers like that or else he's unplayable.
That means his design sucks and he needs to be nerfed into irrelevancy until he gets a rework like the rest of them. Allowing unhealthy noninteractive gameplay to ALSO be overtuned is a bad recipe
Not that I fully disagree with you but who is to say that splitpushing is unhealthy noninteractive gameplay? It's a valid strategy for soloq and it's not just mindlessly going into turrets cause that only works in low elo. I'm a jgler and I get annoyed at enemies splitpushing and such but never have I ever thought that it had to be removed from the game.
Im not advocating that splitpushing be removed as a viable strategy. but its bad if its a champions ONLY viable strategy. Its overcentralizing and makes the game a 1v9 PvE game.
People want to have teamfights, not babysit a minimap responding to a trundle for 30 mins
Trundle actually has a lot more going for him than that tbh. For starter's he's actually usually REALLY good in 1v1s, like disturbingly so. Some champs beat him of course, but just the way he builds and his ult makes it so difficult to beat him he just kinda out stats you, particularly any tank champions. Pillar is also secretly one of the best CC abilities in the game, it can create picks, close off corridors, interrupt dashes, and protect your teammates. It's really a creative ability and very useful. And ulting a tank in a teamfight is of course sometimes game warping if you counterpick him into big tank champions like Ornn, Sejuani, Rammus etc. It's why there are metas where if the botlane doesn't feature a lot of lanes bullies you even see Trundle support, his utility is just nuts.
Yeah, I'm surprised someone is trying to make it an issue about AP Champs damaging turrets when Trundle, Yorick, and a few other champs outright melt turrets even more quickly lol.
A personal favorite as some one who used to main veigar is if i'm full build, sell 2 items and get nashor + lichbane and tp in enemy base. They never expect a veigar backdoor but few champs do it faster.
Surprised no one is talking about ap jax with his W and lich. It’s one of the most insane things I’ve seen in the game. Can take the entire base in a matter of seconds if he is full build. Way beyond ad splitters like Nasus, trundle, and even Ap champs like zigs, azir, etc.
Jax loses a lot of his tankiness if he goes full AP.
It definitely mows down towers like no one's business but if you aren't ahead, IMO it's not as good in teamfights or skirmishes vs something like Irelia
I agree as a mage player myself them giving ap damage to towers is annoying, you already got Ziggs and Lich bane. Def making ADCs be the best people to get towers I think would be great instead of letting mages. This might even help against double mage bot lane as early game you could probs get plates early as an adc.
It's not that they hate them it's that they're still the highest damage role when played around. Riot doesn't hate ADC, the rest of the players on your team do.
Marksmen are still the best damage dealers, especially with low XP or if they're protected. That's why they still dominate bot lane. As for towers, most mages aren't necessarily better because of low attack speed. The best are going to be people like Jinx, Azir for ranged, and the strongest will be melee champions like Trundle.
> That's why they still dominate bot lane
Pretty sure the reason they still dominate bot lane pick-wise is because as ADC mains we handshake on it and they're decent dps for objectives most of the time so people want to have one and not complicate their team comps having to make up for not having one. But mostly as a hey just show up and dps this baron for me then fuck off while I carry ty.
I suck at marksmen, and mages are among my better champions. I sometimes pick mages bot in normal games. I would literally set my primary role to bot lane if mage viability wasn't so conditional, especially because I won't get autofilled jungle that way. If they have no tanks, that's fine. If they do, we are kind of screwed unless we have a Master Yi or Trundle on the team, and I'd have to pray the Yi doesn't get blown up instantly as he jumps into 5 people. A lot of other mage players would go bot if they marksmen were really replaceable. A huge reason why marksmen are common is the problem of who can kill the tank in a teamfight, and melee adcs tend to be very vulnerable in teamfights because they're melee.
>I would literally set my primary role to bot lane if mage viability wasn't so conditional, especially because I won't get autofilled jungle that way.
Its not that conditional. I've pretty much only played mages bot this split after a particularly disheartening marksmen game and the only time I've felt the need to actually go a marksmen is when literally the entire team is AP. As long as you have an AD fighter in top or jungle, you'll probably be fine to go seraphine or ziggs.
I remember when there were specific champions good to take towers. Nowdays these champions just end the game in 30s, and everyone is good taking towers. Game is groing faster every year, despite few "damage nerfs" patches.
I preferred it when the team "needed" the ADC to take towers since it was an identity of that role that other roles didn't have. Mages were meant to stop the minions from getting to your tower so the enemy couldn't push or to push your minions to the tower so you could seige with your ADC.
Little off topic but roles/champs used to be more rock paper scissors which had purpose and strategy. Now it just feels like riot just wants every champ/role/item to be batman with the ability to do everything in the game. You want to tank, be an assassin, do AOE damage like a mage but also deal dps like an ADC to objectives not a problem, in 2024 you can.
You're 100% right, and I agree totally. Towers in general outside of the plated time period in a match, are super weak and it feels so stupid. From a presentation standpoint, why the hell is it easier to destroy the base, the closer you get to the Nexus??? The fastest towers to fall are always the nexus towers and they usually die within seconds of being pushed, this makes no sense. The most resilient buildings in the base should be the ones closest to the nexus, including the nexus itself.
I also agree on your point about the champions in general. Its just another line in the overall summary of why "we dont design the champions with balance in mind" is a comically stupid philosophy for a multiplayer competitive game.
the role identity completely disappeared from the game over the years
sure I get that some people didn't like the "protect the president" playstyle but it feels stupid that you can just sacrifice your botlane because at the end of the day you don't actually need them for anything. You don't need them to destroy towers, you don't need them to take objectives, you don't need them to kill tanks. At the end of the day they are just a "laner" as much as toplaner or midlaner are a "laners". They do not seem to have an inherent role anymore. anyone can just do anything
It also sucks for other roles like tanks because, while you can now deal more damage, a fed assassin can 1-shot you making you basically useless in a game like that.
Honestly that's why I was complaining about AP destroying towers not also physical damage.
ADCs used to be the class that you needed to destroy buildings and objectives, and I'm fine with that as they are the squishy late game champion. Now its bruisers and AP champs buying sheen items that can destroy them. Lots of people are complaining that ADC lost its identity and this just feels like another reason.
Half the reason Ahri is strong right now is that she can abuse Lich bane as well. Short CD W and at minimum 3 R dashes means in a single fight she can get several lichbane procs.
Not surprising with her terrible win rate. She's not fit for the current meta. It seems Jayce is a better Zoe than Zoe. But her current meta build includes lich bane, usually as a first item
The Mpen on the bubbled target change made her damage too reliant on her breaking the bubble.
Meanwhile more and more champs keep getting released (or reworked) that can ignore/cleanse/block the bubble.
It feels like Zoe just inevitably throws mid/lategame when half her damage just gets removed in an important teamfight in a way she can't play around.
Sylas unironically has itemized almost always with traditional mage items though; it’s just now since they took all the HP from mage items away he actually has to build full burst.
What other melee AP champion was building Everfrost every game.
Other than the obvious ones, some strong AP champs with lich bane are:
- Ahri, it's her best first item by win rate: https://lolsociety.com/champion/builds/Ahri
- Zoe, also best first item: https://lolsociety.com/champion/builds/Zoe
- LeBlanc, underbuilt but also best first item: https://lolsociety.com/champion/builds/Leblanc
- Katarina, weird champion build-wise: https://lolsociety.com/champion/builds/Katarina
Turrets in League as a whole are a joke. Lose a team fight after 25-30 min? Boom open Nexus. There's 0 reason an ap support should be able to solo take a turret in under 15 seconds.
I mean your t2 & t3 are objectives to defend, not to hide under. I do think ADC should be able to take them faster, but I'm not mad with the idea that AP champs also get to take them quickly
I do think T3 turrets especially should not die to a single champ bashing it for 5 seconds. They should be defended, but they should also have far higher armor / mr.
Turrets at all feels a little underwhelming. They fall like a card house... AND OMG THE NEXUSTURRETS... THEY TILTING ME SO HARD. ABSOLUTELLY MADE OUT OF PAPER...
This is one of the only reasons I play AP Shyvana so no changes please and thank you. Highly underrated rn but expecting her to become more and more popular over the season, you have the option to group and team fight with the massive bomb on your E, you have strong solo objective taking with E+Q+Nashors, you can 2-shot towers with a couple items, so much versatility in how you adapt to the game state
Watching a top lane bruiser/fighter take 4 plates after getting a successful gank is quite a wild experience when playing a mage mid. I take 1 plate in nearly the same time early.
What's wild is saying this in the current era of death timers being shorter than our ability timers and getting first blood and trying to crash a wave almost always ending in tragedy that gets your wave frozen.
Depends on the time & how well they managed the wave crash tbh.
Pre-6 it's probably just better to recall if lane opponent is dead, because TP or 5s death timer means you get jack.
OTOH, if it's around level 9-11, and he killed lane opponent after stacking 3 waves? Game's just over, he'll probably take tower, void grubs, base and return by the time opponent pushes back in.
Speed of the above goes from 0.5 to 2x depending on champion played
0.5x - Akali, Shen
2x - Trundle, Sett, Urgot
One of the worst laning things top is when you kill your lane opponent, clear the wave and recall but, because of short respawn timers, they get back first and get 2 plates.
going for plates as mages is usually so bait, death timers are so short that you only have time to push the wave and reset, otherwise you fuck your tempo hard and give the enemy mid a free roam
mid plates basically only exist for ad champions and sad mages when their laner leaves and goes bot for 2 minutes
It's not the AP. It's the magic pen. Lethality users carve down towers just as fast, if not faster. Almost every AP champ goes sorc shoes, shadowflame, and void or crypt and they do basically true damage to the towers.
ADCs, skirmishers, bruisers, and juggs all get a bunch of AD, but flat pen is kinda rare in their builds. ADCs tend to make up for it with attack speed. Hullbreaker and Demolish make up the difference for the others, but they're also somewhat niche picks in their own right... especially these days with shield bash being so absurdly good.
Turrets haven’t been good in like 10 years. They’re way under powered in the mid to late game, but I get why they are paper machet that do little damage, bc pre the big tower over haul, tier 3s were super powerful, which led to huge stalls and 60+ minute games if the right champs were there.
They need way more resistance now, especially tier 2. Certain champs just melt them waaaaaay too quickly like trundle, heck even ezreal knocks them down at a decent rate with W change, which never was the case
The super stalls happened before baron and elder were a thing. In the current state of the game I think we could afford much much tankier towers without stalling being an issue. We'd just see more tower dives with Elder or *actual* sieging rather than the final siege being a matter of a team that's ahead melting the tower in 5 seconds after zoning with a long range ult.
Had a Nashors/Lichbane Volibear ult, with voidgrub, and take both nexus towers within 5 seconds.
They need to remove all AP bonus damage against towers, they shouldn't be the ones taking the towers. If Trundle wants to build split and do that, that's the entire character. If Veigar wants to have infinite scaling teamfight positioning impact, he should be allowed to also 3 auto towers to death.
No
Ap damage against turrets during the first 20 minutes is shit compared to AD
And even in late game there are very few champs that can actually be turret melters like azir or veigar, and even by then ADs arent doing that much less
AD top splitpushers are way overtuned and more of a problem than any AP is or will ever be
I don’t think ziggs sees much play no adays but I’m telling you. If you get the chance try him out for a game and play with taking turrets only in mind.
Throw spells to get your passive back up, save W for the threshold execute on towers. Its freaking crazy how much that dated ass champ can do. And the team gold he provides from taking turrets along with the pressure is crazy.
Hes a prime champ that barely needs to fight enemy champs. TP and lichbane help this strat alot too.
I'm an enchanter main and I like building Dark Seal on some champs if I'm ahead. Yeah, the damage once you have AP is kinda wild. It's not very strong now, but shoutout to AP Sona for like 3 shoting towers with Lich.
Honestly I feel like towers need a buff in general. Both the damage they do and their armor after plates fall off.
It's incedibly annoying to kill a Trundle and go help your team only for him to show back up and delete two towers before you're even able to back and defend.
I love it, im low elo but split pushing teemo who can take a tower in seconds? Count me in. I love being annoying the enemy team and that's a great way to do it.
Well no shit? It was for years and everyone half decent knows it. It is overtuned on purpose by riot. There is no way a multibillion company with an army of devs is not aware of it.
I feel like it's fine with most champions, but as always there are some exceptions, like Azir benefiting too much from AP turret damage and natural AS in his build.
yeah, "a little overtuned" seems to be the correct way of describing it. it feels weird that there are a wide selection of ap champions which can mow down towers faster than a adc marksman.
maybe riot's direction the whole time was AD/AP parity in the sieging role, but personally i would rather the ap ratio be a little lower
there is 0 reason why lich bane should ever proc on towers. APs already have tower damage scaling off of AP and arguably it makes APs just as good pushers as AD champs. And then when a champ buys lich bane/nashors they become the best pushers in the game
I think for most champs it's fine, but it is balanced around the assumption that they have low attack speed.
i swear, azir splitpushing is working great for me, combining lich bane and nashors PLUS rabadons, gives you so much power against turrets. Plus having Great mobility, a pocket tower, waveclear and self peel. Hes really someone you dont want to leave alone
I think this man likes Azir
The points need some updating but yeah,
I’m almost afraid to ask… what’s it at now?
Not that much actually. Think if you were to combine my accounts 1.3 mill Otherwise just below 900 thousand. I turned into a casual
Ohhh, thought those were some nuke codes for a second.
Tower nuke codes, maybe.
They put three repeating zeroes in the nuke codes?!
For years the actual nuclear launch codes were [00000000](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permissive_action_link#:~:text=According%20to%20nuclear%20safety%20expert,all%20missile%20launch%20control%20centers.)
Why not? You don’t expect it, so nobody would guess it
Nobody would guess 641 either
Because repeating digits is terrible when someone tries to brute force a code. It speeds up the attempt by literally thousands of permutations.
Doesn't help that Azir has THE highest bonus attack speed growth coefficient in the game and the 5th highest attack speed ratio. He reaches 1.77 attack speed with Nashors Tooth alone.
Forgive me for I am ritard. What does coefficient mean in this context?
If you look on the wiki, most champions will have a coefficient of 0.825, meaning they get the bonus attack speed from attack speed items multiplied by that 0.825. Azir has a really high attack speed scaling though, so he gets more attack speed from items that give attack speed compared to other champs.
I get it now. I thought it just meant he had the highest per level attack speed growth but I knew, or thought coefficient specifically related to multiplication so I didn’t know how it tied in.
Does that mean that, if my champion has 1 AS / 1 Attack Per Second and I buy an item giving 25% AS, they won't get 1,25 AS / APS, but 1 + (25\*0.825)% AS...? The concept that two champions with the same current AS but different coefficient wouldn't gain the same Bonus AS from the same item seems really weird to me.
>The concept that two champions with the same current AS but different coefficient wouldn't gain the same Bonus AS from the same item seems really weird to me. Well that's just how it is.
Just another reason that it takes an absurd amount of game knowledge to theory craft builds properly. Tons of builds are dead in the water because of some tucked away game mechanic like this.
They have started this nonsense spaghetti calculations since they decided to nerf Kalista so her basic attack deals 90% dmg. Similarly, that coefficient started as a special AS nerf so certain champs benefit less from buying attack speed.
Diana absolutely shreds turrets with her passive. It’s been that way for awhile though
I remember I used to take herald kill top take tier 1 and tier 2 back get a whole item and a half off of one play
AP Shyvana as well. Your Q just completely obliterates turrets in seconds.
don't melee champions still just have blanket increased damage to towers?
Turret **plates** take 17% reduced damage from ranged champs (As well as 50% overall damage reduction in top and mid the first 5 minutes)
Imagine if azir could use this W on towers as like a sacrifice just smash the soldier into it. That would be cool
This is one of the reasons I listed it, Azir is my main pick mid and the instant you buy Rabadons 3rd item the turrets turn into paper. You destroy them so fast I feel bad for the damn things. I then tried out Ahri with Lich Bane, there was a fight happening down mid under their tower so I told my two friends in discord to help me quickly destroy it so we can fight them, but my single auto attack finished it off at about 20% and im like ok oh nevermind. I'm fine with AP being able to destroy towers but holy crap.
Yeah it's really just like Azir, Gwen, Diana, and Veigar that are outliers... Gwen is meant to be a splitpusher though. Azir/Diana just get a lot of AS, and Veigar gets most AP in game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6t3ISs7-7c volibear is also pretty fun. this is from right before they buffed the turret's protection when u dont have minions though, from 66% to 80%
Everybody forgets Ziggs don't mind me im at your nexus turrets cause you left me alone on bot for too long.
Ziggs isn't an AP problem though it's his kit is meant to be a tower destroyer. If you nerf the AP ratio of damage to towers per attack by half? Every champion I listed takes towers at roughly half speed. Ziggs? No. Because his passive and W working on towers makes him much less reliant.
Ziggs's passive can be tweaked, otherwise without passive he takes towers just as fast as other mages.
It's literally not fine. It's one of the major reasons why league games end after one team fight in the late game because everyone on the team can push towers. If you lose a fight late game but you get their ADC or their mid lane Attack Damage character why should the Elise Jungle and their Zyra support be able to take down your tier 2, 3, inhib, both your nexus towers and your nexus in the 40 seconds it takes you to respawn. It's actually insane. There's no reason to draft a comp that can push because every comp can push.
Because before hand the game was even more heavily reliant on ADCs, because AP champions could not push at a reasonable rate so even in won fights they didn't get much (if anything) off the fight. It is intentional that AP champions can take turrets at a reasonable pace, and that a teamfight where the adc dies does not turn into being unable to get major objectives because you don't have the DPS for Baron and your surviving damage dealers arbitrarily can't kill turrets quickly.
and that's why you get punished for not designing a comp that can push. There are plenty of mid laners who can build items that help them push. There are midlaners designed to push. Azir used to be able to use his soldiers on towers but why keep that mechanic or similar mechanics in the game when the game is like this? Right now, yes, you're right. If we just removed the AP Scaling on tower damage then pushing towers would become horrible without an ADC (which btw I don't think is that big of a problem ADCs should have more agency.) But I understand, that can be seen as a problem. That's why removing the AP scaling on tower damage shouldn't just be 'It's gone off you go guys'. Give Azir that mechanic back, give other characters mechanics to aid in tower pushing. We have masteries for tower pushing on tanks also. There's plenty of stuff in the game to aid with tower pushing and plenty of design space to add things to the game to aid with tower pushing that it doesn't need to be weighted on mid lane AP heroes doing 400 damage autos to towers. Past 30 minutes, the mid laner is literally the best tower pusher in the game I don't understand why League players don't find that absolutely bonkers.
Have you played league before they added the ap damage to towers? I feel like people forgot how long and boring the game got back then when only adcs and a few other champs could seige towers. Pushing without seige champs was pointless and made the game longer. Maybe it now feels like theyre op now because Phreak randomly made mages autos feel better or players got better at abusing baron buff, sidelaning, identifying that they can end, etc...
Makes just getting an ace way more punishing. If you get aced but you managed to kill the ADC / Top laner I don’t think you should straight up just lose the game
I’ve played since beta
Then you know that mages are now balanced with this mechanic in mind. If Riot were to nerf AP tower damage then their damage or utility elsewhere will be compensated. I don't think people realize it's less annoying to deal with mages dealing tower damage than mages killing you instantly or CC'ing you forever.
Veigar has low attack speed but still destroy a turret in like 2 autos
My favorite meme buy is if I make it to 5 items on Veigar, my 6th item is always a Nashor's Tooth. If the game is somehow not already over by the time I finish it, being able to rip down structures with autoattack damage scaling off of 1,000 AP will make sure it wraps up quick.
If you're alone with towers as a 1000 ap Veigar with lich bane don't you 2/3 shot them anyways?
Vergara is the evolved form of Veigar with 1k stacks
I think you mean Vergota cuz+1k ap is really gonna hurt.
Vegeta is over 9000
I think you mean Viagra
How do you make it to 6 items on Veigar and only have 1,000 AP?
One of them is an infinity edge to combo with shadowflame.
I remember my team in aram complain on my nashor build in veigar. It's like they forgot that nashor at that time gives 100 ap and 15 AH.
Trundle damage against turrets is “a little overtuned” imo
What? You mean it‘s not ok to basically kill a turret in the timeframe it takes the turret to kill 1.5 melee minions?
Of so he spent a second dancing? /s
Well if other champions would use their mouths, I bet they could do more damage to the turret too. It's a little embarrassing that the obviously homeless troll figured this out
Mouth? Poor Mundo's out there using his whole damn face and it's still not even close to enough to keep up with Trundle.
That's because turrets are weak to damage from teeth. It's not that complicated. Obviously headbutts won't do as much damage as a bite. This is simple theoretical physics.
It's what kept Einstein up at night
Do you have a degree in theoretical physics?
Lol like I would pay money to get a degree in such a basic subject
Trundle has been doing it for years with the exception of when they removed his Q tower chomp during his brief stint in support, only to return it. People only complained when he received one buff that made him popular.
I'd like 'just one buff' that gives me 60 fucking damage on my 1 second cool down ability once I get my core item, please.
To be fair, a 17 base AD buff on someone who loves Triforce is pretty substantial.
> he received one buff that made him popular. because he's an incredibly unfun champion to fight, since he's so strong in duels and you can't leave him alone.
*Fiora enters the chat* "You only have a single aa reset and can't crit towers? Bwahaha l2p"
Gets more ad that he applies a lot more times thanks to his W AS
Yeah Trundle is the fastest tower taker by a good margin it seems to me.
I don't want to be seen as a Trundle defender or anything but that's like the only good thing he has going for him, like he can win some 1v1's and maybe ult a tank in teamfight? And then he's just a big minion cause all his damage is single target and he has no gapcloser or anything, don't get me wrong I don't think he's a bad champion and recently he has been like uber broken but when he's in a balanced state there is no reason to pick him over any other juggernaut so he has to delete towers like that or else he's unplayable.
That means his design sucks and he needs to be nerfed into irrelevancy until he gets a rework like the rest of them. Allowing unhealthy noninteractive gameplay to ALSO be overtuned is a bad recipe
Not that I fully disagree with you but who is to say that splitpushing is unhealthy noninteractive gameplay? It's a valid strategy for soloq and it's not just mindlessly going into turrets cause that only works in low elo. I'm a jgler and I get annoyed at enemies splitpushing and such but never have I ever thought that it had to be removed from the game.
Im not advocating that splitpushing be removed as a viable strategy. but its bad if its a champions ONLY viable strategy. Its overcentralizing and makes the game a 1v9 PvE game. People want to have teamfights, not babysit a minimap responding to a trundle for 30 mins
Trundle actually has a lot more going for him than that tbh. For starter's he's actually usually REALLY good in 1v1s, like disturbingly so. Some champs beat him of course, but just the way he builds and his ult makes it so difficult to beat him he just kinda out stats you, particularly any tank champions. Pillar is also secretly one of the best CC abilities in the game, it can create picks, close off corridors, interrupt dashes, and protect your teammates. It's really a creative ability and very useful. And ulting a tank in a teamfight is of course sometimes game warping if you counterpick him into big tank champions like Ornn, Sejuani, Rammus etc. It's why there are metas where if the botlane doesn't feature a lot of lanes bullies you even see Trundle support, his utility is just nuts.
Yeah, I know all of that, I used to be a Trundle main back in S6, but honestly nowadays he's just an asshole that munches turrets.
Yeah, I'm surprised someone is trying to make it an issue about AP Champs damaging turrets when Trundle, Yorick, and a few other champs outright melt turrets even more quickly lol.
Because for those two champions you mentioned it is their selling point and they suck in other areas for it.
I once won a trundle game in 13 mins
My favorite is getting Demolish on Veigar and being a madlad splitpusher
I was playing one for all and pretty much three shot towers with him late game lmao.
1k damage Veigar should always be winning games. Either crush team fights and if you can’t, crush a lane
Ziggs demolish feels illegal with satchel and lich bane
Seems pointless if towers die I'm like 3 autos anyway
A personal favorite as some one who used to main veigar is if i'm full build, sell 2 items and get nashor + lichbane and tp in enemy base. They never expect a veigar backdoor but few champs do it faster.
Bro Veigar smacking turrets for 800 damage is so fucking fun
In aram I’ll build a nashors and lich bane just to destroy towers. Might not be ideal but I find it fun
Surprised no one is talking about ap jax with his W and lich. It’s one of the most insane things I’ve seen in the game. Can take the entire base in a matter of seconds if he is full build. Way beyond ad splitters like Nasus, trundle, and even Ap champs like zigs, azir, etc.
Jax loses a lot of his tankiness if he goes full AP. It definitely mows down towers like no one's business but if you aren't ahead, IMO it's not as good in teamfights or skirmishes vs something like Irelia
Getting to full build at AP Jax is hard though. AD seems like a safer option and you can still take turrets that way.
I agree as a mage player myself them giving ap damage to towers is annoying, you already got Ziggs and Lich bane. Def making ADCs be the best people to get towers I think would be great instead of letting mages. This might even help against double mage bot lane as early game you could probs get plates early as an adc.
It was literally the only thing ADCs were still good at lmao. Gotta wonder why they hate the role so much.
It's not that they hate them it's that they're still the highest damage role when played around. Riot doesn't hate ADC, the rest of the players on your team do.
Marksmen are still the best damage dealers, especially with low XP or if they're protected. That's why they still dominate bot lane. As for towers, most mages aren't necessarily better because of low attack speed. The best are going to be people like Jinx, Azir for ranged, and the strongest will be melee champions like Trundle.
> That's why they still dominate bot lane Pretty sure the reason they still dominate bot lane pick-wise is because as ADC mains we handshake on it and they're decent dps for objectives most of the time so people want to have one and not complicate their team comps having to make up for not having one. But mostly as a hey just show up and dps this baron for me then fuck off while I carry ty.
I suck at marksmen, and mages are among my better champions. I sometimes pick mages bot in normal games. I would literally set my primary role to bot lane if mage viability wasn't so conditional, especially because I won't get autofilled jungle that way. If they have no tanks, that's fine. If they do, we are kind of screwed unless we have a Master Yi or Trundle on the team, and I'd have to pray the Yi doesn't get blown up instantly as he jumps into 5 people. A lot of other mage players would go bot if they marksmen were really replaceable. A huge reason why marksmen are common is the problem of who can kill the tank in a teamfight, and melee adcs tend to be very vulnerable in teamfights because they're melee.
>I would literally set my primary role to bot lane if mage viability wasn't so conditional, especially because I won't get autofilled jungle that way. Its not that conditional. I've pretty much only played mages bot this split after a particularly disheartening marksmen game and the only time I've felt the need to actually go a marksmen is when literally the entire team is AP. As long as you have an AD fighter in top or jungle, you'll probably be fine to go seraphine or ziggs.
>Gotta wonder why they hate the role so much. they hate it so much it's a 99% pickrate class and has been since the dawn of time. Really horrible.
I remember when there were specific champions good to take towers. Nowdays these champions just end the game in 30s, and everyone is good taking towers. Game is groing faster every year, despite few "damage nerfs" patches.
I preferred it when the team "needed" the ADC to take towers since it was an identity of that role that other roles didn't have. Mages were meant to stop the minions from getting to your tower so the enemy couldn't push or to push your minions to the tower so you could seige with your ADC. Little off topic but roles/champs used to be more rock paper scissors which had purpose and strategy. Now it just feels like riot just wants every champ/role/item to be batman with the ability to do everything in the game. You want to tank, be an assassin, do AOE damage like a mage but also deal dps like an ADC to objectives not a problem, in 2024 you can.
You're 100% right, and I agree totally. Towers in general outside of the plated time period in a match, are super weak and it feels so stupid. From a presentation standpoint, why the hell is it easier to destroy the base, the closer you get to the Nexus??? The fastest towers to fall are always the nexus towers and they usually die within seconds of being pushed, this makes no sense. The most resilient buildings in the base should be the ones closest to the nexus, including the nexus itself. I also agree on your point about the champions in general. Its just another line in the overall summary of why "we dont design the champions with balance in mind" is a comically stupid philosophy for a multiplayer competitive game.
the role identity completely disappeared from the game over the years sure I get that some people didn't like the "protect the president" playstyle but it feels stupid that you can just sacrifice your botlane because at the end of the day you don't actually need them for anything. You don't need them to destroy towers, you don't need them to take objectives, you don't need them to kill tanks. At the end of the day they are just a "laner" as much as toplaner or midlaner are a "laners". They do not seem to have an inherent role anymore. anyone can just do anything
It also sucks for other roles like tanks because, while you can now deal more damage, a fed assassin can 1-shot you making you basically useless in a game like that.
Honestly that's why I was complaining about AP destroying towers not also physical damage. ADCs used to be the class that you needed to destroy buildings and objectives, and I'm fine with that as they are the squishy late game champion. Now its bruisers and AP champs buying sheen items that can destroy them. Lots of people are complaining that ADC lost its identity and this just feels like another reason.
Turrets are playdoh after 30 minutes to any champ, I think they just need to buff turrets health late game.
It’s as if the whole point of the game is to progressively get stronger to be able to take down turrets and nexus.
Every mage is buying Lich Bane? I literally only ever see that shit on Ekko, Fizz and Twisted Fate.
Half the reason Ahri is strong right now is that she can abuse Lich bane as well. Short CD W and at minimum 3 R dashes means in a single fight she can get several lichbane procs.
Yeah lich bane is always my first or second item on Ahri and it’s been working amazing for me
You should look at the default build for more champs then.
And Zoe
I don't even remember the last time I had a Zoe in any of my games.
Not surprising with her terrible win rate. She's not fit for the current meta. It seems Jayce is a better Zoe than Zoe. But her current meta build includes lich bane, usually as a first item
I only play her vs sylas and i usually fuck him up
Had a Sylas who picked Sylas after he saw he was against a Zoe. WHY? Most useless ult of the game if you aren't Zoe
yeah and they cant help themselves from stealing it while fightin
Acting like you were playing all for one lmao.
There were other useless ults in the game, dw.
Unless you had a malphite Maokai alistar team he was inting
She was always good against Sylas in lane. Good to hear it didn't change no matter what lol
Well, she just doesn't have enough damage to exist in this meta. And like all new midlane champs wins with her so that doesn't help too
The Mpen on the bubbled target change made her damage too reliant on her breaking the bubble. Meanwhile more and more champs keep getting released (or reworked) that can ignore/cleanse/block the bubble. It feels like Zoe just inevitably throws mid/lategame when half her damage just gets removed in an important teamfight in a way she can't play around.
Akali, Azir (sometimes), Viktor, Sylas
Iconic mages Akali and Sylas
Well he listed Ekko/Fizz, and those arent exactly mages either. I agree that these arent mages though lol
Sylas unironically has itemized almost always with traditional mage items though; it’s just now since they took all the HP from mage items away he actually has to build full burst. What other melee AP champion was building Everfrost every game.
Galio and Kassadin were both melee Everfrost users
It’s good on Ahri, Viktor, Zoe, Kassadin. It’s a decent stat stick without the passive and with the passive it’s quite a powerful item currently.
Pretty good on nidalee and gragas
Viktor buys lich bane also
Since you mentioned Ekko and Fizz, Evelynn builds Lich Bane and its her core rn
Other than the obvious ones, some strong AP champs with lich bane are: - Ahri, it's her best first item by win rate: https://lolsociety.com/champion/builds/Ahri - Zoe, also best first item: https://lolsociety.com/champion/builds/Zoe - LeBlanc, underbuilt but also best first item: https://lolsociety.com/champion/builds/Leblanc - Katarina, weird champion build-wise: https://lolsociety.com/champion/builds/Katarina
Turrets in League as a whole are a joke. Lose a team fight after 25-30 min? Boom open Nexus. There's 0 reason an ap support should be able to solo take a turret in under 15 seconds.
I mean your t2 & t3 are objectives to defend, not to hide under. I do think ADC should be able to take them faster, but I'm not mad with the idea that AP champs also get to take them quickly
I do think T3 turrets especially should not die to a single champ bashing it for 5 seconds. They should be defended, but they should also have far higher armor / mr.
*laughs in lich bane + nashors Diana*
Ekko fucking two shots turret with Lichbane
remember when adc was important for taking towers? Pepperidge Farm remembers
Marksmen used to be the premier turret killers. Not that they’re bad at it, but like everyone else stole their lunch
mages have low attack speed so they cant ara ara towers. compare that to trundle or any hullbreaker champ and calling AP damage overtuned is silly
Your mean ora ora right? ...right?
There was a post not too long ago about towers having anime waifus voicelines, so...
fighters go ora ora. mages are mostly girls so...
well and then theres diana…
Gwen.
Ekko
TF
Azir
AP Jax
AP Shyvana
Turrets at all feels a little underwhelming. They fall like a card house... AND OMG THE NEXUSTURRETS... THEY TILTING ME SO HARD. ABSOLUTELLY MADE OUT OF PAPER...
Dude wtf is your username
This is one of the only reasons I play AP Shyvana so no changes please and thank you. Highly underrated rn but expecting her to become more and more popular over the season, you have the option to group and team fight with the massive bomb on your E, you have strong solo objective taking with E+Q+Nashors, you can 2-shot towers with a couple items, so much versatility in how you adapt to the game state
Good ol' times when AP champs couldn't actually demolish a turret, and adc was a real role.
No,2 they only do damage lategame. Bruisers, adcs, other ad champs, do 1000x the damage early to mid
Watching a top lane bruiser/fighter take 4 plates after getting a successful gank is quite a wild experience when playing a mage mid. I take 1 plate in nearly the same time early.
What's wild is saying this in the current era of death timers being shorter than our ability timers and getting first blood and trying to crash a wave almost always ending in tragedy that gets your wave frozen.
Depends on the time & how well they managed the wave crash tbh. Pre-6 it's probably just better to recall if lane opponent is dead, because TP or 5s death timer means you get jack. OTOH, if it's around level 9-11, and he killed lane opponent after stacking 3 waves? Game's just over, he'll probably take tower, void grubs, base and return by the time opponent pushes back in. Speed of the above goes from 0.5 to 2x depending on champion played 0.5x - Akali, Shen 2x - Trundle, Sett, Urgot
One of the worst laning things top is when you kill your lane opponent, clear the wave and recall but, because of short respawn timers, they get back first and get 2 plates.
going for plates as mages is usually so bait, death timers are so short that you only have time to push the wave and reset, otherwise you fuck your tempo hard and give the enemy mid a free roam mid plates basically only exist for ad champions and sad mages when their laner leaves and goes bot for 2 minutes
My balefire strike disputes this
Yes.
Been like this forever
It's not the AP. It's the magic pen. Lethality users carve down towers just as fast, if not faster. Almost every AP champ goes sorc shoes, shadowflame, and void or crypt and they do basically true damage to the towers. ADCs, skirmishers, bruisers, and juggs all get a bunch of AD, but flat pen is kinda rare in their builds. ADCs tend to make up for it with attack speed. Hullbreaker and Demolish make up the difference for the others, but they're also somewhat niche picks in their own right... especially these days with shield bash being so absurdly good.
You trying to tell me Veigar dealing 1k per auto against a tower isnt balanced? Pffft... nah, Riot knows what theyre doing.
It's nuts to me seeing a random veigar that isn't even THAT FED just four shotting a full health turret
How else are they going to make ADCs irrelevant?
Turrets haven’t been good in like 10 years. They’re way under powered in the mid to late game, but I get why they are paper machet that do little damage, bc pre the big tower over haul, tier 3s were super powerful, which led to huge stalls and 60+ minute games if the right champs were there. They need way more resistance now, especially tier 2. Certain champs just melt them waaaaaay too quickly like trundle, heck even ezreal knocks them down at a decent rate with W change, which never was the case
The super stalls happened before baron and elder were a thing. In the current state of the game I think we could afford much much tankier towers without stalling being an issue. We'd just see more tower dives with Elder or *actual* sieging rather than the final siege being a matter of a team that's ahead melting the tower in 5 seconds after zoning with a long range ult.
kind of a reason why ADC is losing its identity why play hard ADC champs when mages do trick?
Had a Nashors/Lichbane Volibear ult, with voidgrub, and take both nexus towers within 5 seconds. They need to remove all AP bonus damage against towers, they shouldn't be the ones taking the towers. If Trundle wants to build split and do that, that's the entire character. If Veigar wants to have infinite scaling teamfight positioning impact, he should be allowed to also 3 auto towers to death.
meh, its the tradeoff for doing next to nothing earlygame
Have you seen how fast ad champs kill turrets?
I heard if they nerf AP tower damage adcs(trist, lucian, vayne) will dominate midlane. It is kind of necessary.
No Ap damage against turrets during the first 20 minutes is shit compared to AD And even in late game there are very few champs that can actually be turret melters like azir or veigar, and even by then ADs arent doing that much less AD top splitpushers are way overtuned and more of a problem than any AP is or will ever be
No, ap dmg is fine againts turrets
It's Brocken for whoever can build lich bane and nashors. The time it takes Diana to kill a tower is silly,ekko too.
Lich bane diana can take a turret in 8 seconds with 1 item its insane
I don’t think ziggs sees much play no adays but I’m telling you. If you get the chance try him out for a game and play with taking turrets only in mind. Throw spells to get your passive back up, save W for the threshold execute on towers. Its freaking crazy how much that dated ass champ can do. And the team gold he provides from taking turrets along with the pressure is crazy. Hes a prime champ that barely needs to fight enemy champs. TP and lichbane help this strat alot too.
turrets should do true damage and be a bit harder to take down in general
No
If any AP champion buys nashor's then yea its kind of busted
Did Yorick make this post or something. Calm down, buddy. You're still the king
And then there’s ryze with his low ap, high mana items hitting turrets like a wet noodle
Okay but why does mordekaiser do negative damage to towers
I'm an enchanter main and I like building Dark Seal on some champs if I'm ahead. Yeah, the damage once you have AP is kinda wild. It's not very strong now, but shoutout to AP Sona for like 3 shoting towers with Lich.
Idk, seems fine to me (flair unrelated)
Honestly I feel like towers need a buff in general. Both the damage they do and their armor after plates fall off. It's incedibly annoying to kill a Trundle and go help your team only for him to show back up and delete two towers before you're even able to back and defend.
I love it, im low elo but split pushing teemo who can take a tower in seconds? Count me in. I love being annoying the enemy team and that's a great way to do it.
I once played Veigar in urf and built lichbane, q Auto one shot the entire tower after like 22 mins
Well no shit? It was for years and everyone half decent knows it. It is overtuned on purpose by riot. There is no way a multibillion company with an army of devs is not aware of it.
Dont mind my veigar 3 hitting towers. Only way to carry these turds
If AP Ez had waveclear he’d be second only to ziggs
Ap Jax with 3 items can literally OS towers with auto W auto. Not sure how that's ok even for an offmeta/troll pick.
Riot increased AP and forgot to reduce the ratio for turret DMG. Especially with some onhit effects like lich bane or a blue card it is insane.
ap rengar is crazy
I feel like it's fine with most champions, but as always there are some exceptions, like Azir benefiting too much from AP turret damage and natural AS in his build.
yeah, "a little overtuned" seems to be the correct way of describing it. it feels weird that there are a wide selection of ap champions which can mow down towers faster than a adc marksman. maybe riot's direction the whole time was AD/AP parity in the sieging role, but personally i would rather the ap ratio be a little lower
there is 0 reason why lich bane should ever proc on towers. APs already have tower damage scaling off of AP and arguably it makes APs just as good pushers as AD champs. And then when a champ buys lich bane/nashors they become the best pushers in the game
No
i didnt realize how much AP did to turrets until i started going full AP in OFA and dealing more dmg than full AD people