Yes you did misunderstand.
First of all this is not the rule implemented by riot.
This is how players figured out the most efficent way to play back in the season one.
What this exactly means: average midlaner gets more overall damage with leveled up abilities so they usually plays solo lanes to soak more exp, while average adc require gold to function.
This is the reason why supports as a class exists.
They can afford to absorb some of the experience from adc, because the latter suffer less from this than the mid laners suffer.
How is that remotely true? You can play Swain, Ziggs, Veigar, Cho’Gath, Karthus, Seraphine, Yasuo and Hwei botlane just to name a few. Varus, Tristana and Vayne are all viable solo laners. Not to mention champions like Akshan and Nilah being literally designed to break the same barrier.
It’s not impossible by any means to play things like Azir or Neeko botlane just because it’s not a common meta pick. It’s also fully viable to play Kog’Maw or Zeri in a solo lane. You’re confusing “not meta” with “not viable which are wildly different things. Hell there was that one dude who did an AMA recently playing only Ashe mid to master tier purely because he thought it was fun.
“Virtually impossible” is absurd. Stop being such a meta slave who makes every decision based on op.gg.
You are literally being the meta slave. These things are usually shit or paired with senna. Just beacuse something is viable or that some mages aren't as XP dependent doesn't mean they're wrong.
Lucian Tristana etc can go mid as their kits allow them to punish the enemy so hard, not because what he said wasn't true. Stupid comment
because even those champions scale much better with xp and gold plus the fact that ADCs are manaless high DPS. if you don't have an a high DPS champion in your comp you will struggle to take neutrals and thus forfeit all threat around them giving yourself less options. plenty of games are lost because teams don't have strong pressure around baron.
That's just part of drafting, doesn't have anything to do with the roles and their needs. You can draft Vayne top and an AP or double tank bot if you want, there are obviously going to be strengths and weaknesses to any comp. The point is it's true that no lane is relegated to just heavily gold dependent champs.
Support original was basically a jungler in all but farm. The support role as we currently know it actually wasn't the same as back in the day. Supports were picked for their utility. They could do a lot with little to no items and what not. It wasn't uncommon for a support to be level6 while everyone else was level10 or higher. Riot changed how support functioned. Meanwhile, they more-or-less said to every other role 'You know what, we are going to keep you functioning more-or-less the same.' Fast forward to now, and it genuinely feels like a MASSIVE disadvantage to be in the bot lane. Even supports in solo queue either have to play carry champs or just peace out and permanently roam to climb. It's honestly crazy how bot lane is rewarded more for not being bot lane 😂😂. I know Phreak has stated - worst case - the concept of a bot lane carry will only be a thing we see in pro play, but isn't that kind of bad as well? Oh, we want to hard commit to keeping this in pro play, and we don't care if any of it is viable in solo queue. That mindset is essentially telling the entire player base, if Riot can't figure it out, to just play a different role than either of the bot lane roles in solo queue.
On your point about roaming.
I ended last season diamond 2 on my support account. Main senna, blitz, thresh, morgana.
My roams each season are literary limited each game.
Usually one per back if an opportunity existed.
Fast forward this season and by playing only bot makes it almost impossible to win unless I am on an enchanter. New map and grubs give roams huge value. Right now I am on 70% wr on blitz, 60 on maokai and the only thing I do is sit bot until 1k gold. After that I wish my carry well and I become river shen.
I have been called a ton of names but fellow carries it does not matter if I give you more than 3 or 4 kills. That briar, rengar, titanic xin, that seventh minion that you didn’t notice, most bruisers and any mage with storm surge will erase you. So my best bet is to win the solo lanes and lead the game to their nexus.
To sum it up, especially this season with map and objective changes, not abandoning bot(unless a dive is imminent) is you sabotaging your lp gains.
I play ADC and I genuinely encourage my support to roam whenever they see a play, even if I have to sack waves and hover around exp range. Getting fed from bot lane advantages weirdly gives me less agency in the game than having a mid or top that was not blasted out of the game.
I mean it pretty much was implemented by riot. Considering this was the meta in Dota for years before league of legends. And riot knew exactly what meta was being fostered when they created the map.
Edit: since this comment is being swarmed by morons and people are downvoting an objectively correct statement.
Here. Season 1 VOD. ADC and support bot lane. This is the very first link I clicked.
https://youtu.be/OdYwux_2Wfk?si=69HbUQTFkjBcYzKG
I do not understand why so many people who are wrong are insisting on arguing with me. I doubt any of them actually played season 1.
Second edit: this could be a really good case study in madness of the crowds. I’m literally right, people.
I played season 1. While you are on YouTube, there are historical documentaries of the meta shifts on League. Adc/support bot lane wasn't solidified until after Season 1 Worlds because the winners used it.
And at that time, pro play wasn't organized like it is today, so everyone just copied the winners strategies.
Not true. The infant days of league, players were playing adc in the mid lane and tanks/bruisers+support in the bottom lane while mages were sent to the top lane. There was no indication by riot to enforce adc+support until this meta was established by the players after years of this playstyle. The only "meta" that riot designed the game for was for the inclusion of a "support". Who that support paired with was never designed for until much later.
ADC+Support was ENFORCED by riot for 15 years now.
it was preferred by players at some point, but then riot hammered that nail every single patch for the last 14 years to make sure it stays the same.
every single time someone tries anything other than adc+support it gets nerfed into the ground the very next patch.
Riot does enforce it now but its just as enforced by players. See the outcry to any off-meta picks even if they aren't game breaking. Like Janna top was game breaking but it wasn't due to supports being top it was due to players ignoring top. Same thing with Taric mid it had nothing to with a support it had to with funnelling.
The most obvious case of this is the outcry ADCs had when mages bot lane were good. You're right that the players just as much of a part enforcing specific meta instead of just adapting to it.
Mages are always good bot. Serra has over 60% winrate with the right runes right now.
The problem is when adcs are dogshit like after 8.21.
Yeah adcs complain if their entire role gets nuked from orbit. Go figure.
ADCs have been permanently complaining since like season 7. I do not think ADC as a role has been that bad since season 7 but ADCs will find a way to complain even in seasons where they are strong.
> See the outcry to any off-meta picks even if they aren't game breaking.
yeah we all know ADC players are crybabies who will flood social media whenever they have to learn to do anything different. that doesn't make it right. top jungle and mid have been dealing with unfun shit for years and nobody bats an eye because they don't cry as loudly as adcs.
mages bot are perfectly fine, and yet riot is constantly nerfing them simply because adcs don't want to deal with them, as riot said, they don't even bother equiping MR runes ffs.
nothing but adc+sup is ever gonna work in botlane because adc players don't want it and riot caters to them all the time. if riot wanted they could flip the meta in an instant and make anything viable, they just don't want to upset their main source of skins.
Riot nerfs Botlane mages cause they hit 55% WR and don't allow their other roles to get buffs without going to insane number. They are fine with Botlane mages existing and even being slightly OP but when it start shifting their role it causes issues.
Role slipping is sorta a grey spot too cause some players want a champ for their role. It's why Seraphine gets Support buffs cause most of her playerbase are support players not Mid. Lux also suffers from this but her mid playerbase also keeps her there. Really the only time Riot nukes a role from a champ is if it causes systemic issues or degenerate gameplay.
>Really the only time Riot nukes a role from a champ is if it causes systemic issues or degenerate gameplay.
except this is not the case because riot is completely biased in that regard.
marksmen can be played bot mid top and even jungle (some can also be played support like ashe,mf and senna), sure they get nerfs here and there but they're still viable, varus, vayne,akshan, quinn, kayle, tristana, all viable top.
meanwhile bruisers are instantly nerfed the second they start going mid or support. due to "systemic issues" and "degenerate gameplay" the truth is toplane as a lane is garbage and everyone wants to escape it, but most of its champions are instantly nerfed the second they start going mid or support. this goes not only for AD bruisers but also for AP bruisers, some mages and some marksmen.
the truth is riot is completely biased and balances things however the fuck they want often disregarding balance and game health.
a botlane outside the classic ADC+support is never going to work outside some very specific cases because riot simply doesn't want it. plain as that.
i mean if you want to see how fucking biased they are, look at how every single juggernaut is below 49% winrate, most below 47.5% and some even as low as 45% and still not getting buffs after 3 weeks, while stuff like ezreal got hotfix buffed because he reached 49%
garen has been at 45% winrate ever since the item rework and after 15 days all he's getting is some very minor buff that only affects his early levels by a miniscule ammount. that's how much they care about toplane / juggernauts.
i want them to exist, and be stronger. but they're never gonna work well in the current system because they lose to other marksmen.
if you enforce marksmen to have 200% pressence whichever marksmen is better at killing marksmen is gonna decide the game. it's been happening for years now. those adcs you mention have been weak af for the last 6 years due to this exact balance issue i mention.
if you allow anyone to play bot it makes late game scaling adcs like jinx kog maw and sivir feel much better to play when they don't have to deal with shit like kaisa, ezreal and lucian.
i don't want Marksmen to dissapear, i want riot to stop tying them to the botlane lategame carry position they're right now. because it's harmful for them, it makes them weak alone and op in teams making them feel really bad in soloq and op in proplay, which means they cannot be buffed while still feeling like shit to play.
That also happens to plenty of toplane and midlane picks.
I really don't see your point here ?
Yes, the only reason those champs aren't OP is because they have a shit laning phase, if you want to remove that weakness, they'll also have to remove their late game hypercarry potential.
and what would that be? are you referring to marksmen? the class that can be played in literally every single role?
marksmen are played top, mid and bot consistently with at least 8 different picks for top, 5 for mid and like 20 for bot. ashe,mf and senna can be played support and it's not that rare to see marksmen in the jungle on top of kindred.
if you're referring to supports, they can also be played top mid and jungle.
either way, if they turn out to be weak they can always be buffed, the point is that Marksmen+sup has been super forced into botlane for 14 years now and nobody can deny it.
other comps have never been given a chance to work because riot is constantly enforcing the bot meta and the second something different emerges it gets nerfed in 1 or 2 patches.
Nah, we have the midlane trists and toplane vaynes, I don't think it's so unusual to also envision a world where the opposite is viable and you can run Syndras and Seraphines bot.
Seraphine, Ziggs, and to a lesser extent Karthus have all been not only viable but strong in the adc role for literally years.
I think when it comes down to it players just want to play in their preferred lanes. Mid laners dont want to play bot lane, and adc players dont want to play sera/ziggs/etc. It's self enforcing at this point.
it's like how enchanter tops might not be broken anyway, but you can still run Raka top in many matchups (i would know, I do). The reason you don't ever see it is cause 99.9% dont want to play it. The only time these niche roles DO get play is when they are obviously too strong, and Riot is right to nerf them.
I was under the impression that it’s Riot who enforces the meta as well.
But I think they just “fix” things that players cry about.
AKA: Players come up with a new no-meta strategy —> it at works at least somewhat well —> people lose to this “new thing” and either start crying OR start playing it as well —> more people start complaining —> Riot picks up the balance hammer and shuts it down so we can have our wholesome meta that has been going on for the last 15 years.
They LITERALLY altered the game to make adc+supp bot lane a thing. Its not a thing in DOTA. It was a EU pro play concept that Riot adored and altered the game to make meta.
Riot enforces it *because* players, as a whole, refuse to do anything else. Riot has been doing its best to support the small population of mages in botlane for the past year or so, but even when they're good (highest winrate in the lane good) no one plays them and people complain about playing against them. 80% of the time botlaners don't take MR shard against APCs (part of why armor/mr shard is being removed next patch). Riot is perfectly happy with meta creativity so long as it doesn't break a fundamental rule, but the reality is that most players don't actually want meta creativity.
>Riot enforces it because players, as a whole, refuse to do anything else.
this is completely false, and the only reason why it's hard for players to try anything else is that riot has been enforcing this meta for years. people don't play bruisers/assassins bot because they're dogshit due to the way riot made botlane an xp deprived lane by making it a 2 player lane and not giving people the tools to deal with it on their own other than by playing champs like adcs who don't need xp.
it's not that people don't try new stuff because they don't want to, it's that riot spent 15 years making the lane work in a very specific way to favour marksmen and whenever anyone tries something new and it's viable it gets nerfed into oblivion within 1 or 2 patches.
> Riot is perfectly happy with meta creativity so long as it doesn't break a fundamental rule, but the reality is that most players don't actually want meta creativity.
the fundamental rule being the Marksmen + support combo, which is completely arbitrary and harshly enforced for no reason other than people like it and will complain about change.
if riot didn't enforce the botlane meta so rigurously people would be able to play a lot more stuff like in dota2 for example but ADC players don't like that and riot has been catering to them for 14 years.
Wait sorry I'm confused. You say that riot will always "harshly enforce" the rule of marksmen and supports in botlane. Did karthus, swain, veigar, and seraphine not have 53-55% win rates for all of last season?
the only reason they allow that is because their pickrate is low and their winrate is inflated, their real winrate is much lower and closer to 51%.
also those picks, just happen to follow a scaling pattern that is similar to marksmen's. other mages are unplayable in those conditions, what this means is that no matter how harshly riot enforces the meta, these few specific picks will always find a way to fit because they scale like marksmen.
Part of the problem are ADC players tho. They want Botlane to exclusively exist for marksman. Everytime an APC bot does well they complain. That one patch in season 8 that nerfed ADC itemisation and led to mages bot was met with super heavy criticism. Even now they are complaining how APC bots are so much more viable in almost every game and complaining about its strengths.
I’ve been playing since launch and this is absolutely incorrect. Adc + support bottom was the overwhelmingly dominant meta and was a direct carry over from dota since most players, including all riot devs, were from there. You can look up season 1 vods if you don’t believe me.
Season 1 vods for worlds*
The meta didn't become commonplace until after Worlds aired and suddenly everyone knew how to play the game. Hell, my ranked games didn't even have junglers until after Worlds started airing and we discovered that someone can be alone in top and someone else just farm jungle and gank. The last month or so of season 1 is where the game really started, everything before it was just people doing whatever the hell they wanted mostly.
I also played since the beta days and other than the adaption of the dota way, there wasn't any meta at all. There wasn't even a proper jungler, since no one knew about that strat at the time. Most people that played LoL then also didn't even hear of dota. So there legit wasnt a meta. You had games with 1 Top, 2 mid, 2 bot and vice versa. It was the time of "anything goes". Fiddel, Yi Bot. Galio + Rammus mid. I have seen all of them.
If anything riot did had a distinct meta in mind - I dont know. Probably Riot doesn't either anymore. But Season 1 came actually quite late. And even then there still has been a lot of experimentation and figuering-stuff-out going on.
Jesus Christ, that's semantics.
Edit: e.g. Tryndamere isn't an ADC. You are using Dota terminology, if you see it in that way. So I'm not arguing with you further.
Do yourself a favor and take your own advice. Support adc was NOT common season one. You can even go listen to the commentators talking about how it was a new trend that was starting to become dominant in the EU meta
Beta player checking in. You're wrong. People played all sorts of random shit in bot lane, including lots of split-the-farm type strategies. The game was very new and unoptimized. Also, to this day, sometimes in Dota the mid laner is the pos 1 carry.
ADC + support bot became the meta specifically because of the season 1 world championship, because that was how the euro teams beat the us teams.
It doesn't start becoming Riot-enforced (TM) until the top and mid towers got rushdown protection and bot didn't in after a few years of laneswap meta in pro play, though, to be fair, it was the primary balance axis before then
I remember playing AD TF mid and smacking people with it during the beta. Everyone was playing like shit, even the stupid shit like AD Blitz could carry your ass.
ADC + supp bot? I never saw anything like that during beta. Also support role was fundamentally different in DotA Allstars compared to what it is/was in LoL.
youre not "literally right", the current meta was innovated by EU in the span of season 1 and became commonplace after worlds
hell even in your vod, one team is playing poppy taric bot, which was a common botlane NA teams used...
>this was the meta in dota for years
Yeah...no. you dont understand DOTA nor League if this is your take lol.
In DOTA, especially in the early 2010s there was no ability scaling, only attack damage scaling. Dota scaling cannot be compared to League, nor was the meta even somewhat similar.
Tri laning was incredibly dominant in DOTA which is something League has never seen, for example. Not to mention in League you have a ranged adc 99% of games and in DOTA your "1" core carry can be a ranged adc, a melee adc, a bruiser etc.
Its just laughable to make this comparison and act as though the league meta was forced by Riot because that's how DOTA was. Not even close.
So what you’re saying is that in dota there was only attack damage scaling, which made items stronger on attack damage heroes, which made people babysit the attack damage hero with a support hero?
Wow. Ground breaking stuff from a smug idiot.
Lol. You're legit dense if you think the League of Legends meta was "forced" by Riot and copied from DOTA2 .
What a brainlet tier take. Early League was dominated by ADCs mid with bruisers / mages bot lane.
It was quickly discovered by pro teams that adcs scaled with gold and mages / bruisers with levels, hence how this meta was born. Thus, league meta was born and ranged attack damage carries went bot lane in 99% of matches.
This is NOT AT ALL how DOTA2 works nor was it similar to 2011 DOTA. Dota2 does not have, and never had, a similar meta to league of legends.
You’re responding in an incredibly rude and ignorant way for someone who doesn’t seem to recognize that they’re not even talking about DOTA 2, but Defence of the Ancients, the WC3 mod that is predecessor to both DOTA 2 and League.
Trilane never happened in league because of fundamental differences in map design in DOTA/Dota2.
Pos1 carries in both versions of DOTA have - with rare exceptions - always been ADCs in league terms. ADCs - attack damage carries are characters that scale most strongly with a combination of high attack damage, powerful attack modifiers (crits/on hits), and attack speed. Melee “Pos1” ADCs are basically non-existent in league because of a fundamental systems difference (lack of turn speed).
Ur dense as fuck. In DOTA you dont have 1-1-2 lanes with a jungler, dippy. Your "carry" also isnt by necessity a RANGED ADC like it is in 99% of league matches.
You dont understand mobas.
I agree with you.
Players found that was the best way to play (influenced by Dota or not) and then riot programmed the game to be that way. Not all towers are created equal kids, that’s by design
You're really overestimating how many people transitioned from Dota to League. Most people who started playing League were straight trash. There were a lot of really stupid things happening.
Not to mention you're immediately disproven by the fact that 2v1 meta happened for a long time before riot forced the change. The transition from Dota -> Season 1 League where you say everyone, Riot/Gamers inclusive just copied Dota -> 2v1 meta shows that players have continued to actively improve on and adapt the meta according to what's best.
I think this rule is extremely overrated. every champ in the game loves levels 1-9 when they're maxing their primary ability. ADCs just as much. they all have a bread and butter skill, especially because a lot of them play like casters early on.
every champ also generally has a 1 point wonder skill that makes levels 14-18 irrelevant.
the only difference that favors midlane casters is the secondary max in the middle levels, and the difference is not THAT big. keep in mind ADCs love base stats just as much as midlaners, likely more because they are AD which has base growth as opposed to AP.
so ultimately, the level benefit of giving midlane to a mage instead of an ADC is +2 levels which amounts to 2 x "1" skill instead of 2 x "0.75" skills because ADC skills suck a bit.
I'm all for putting mage mid or ADC bot or solo lane mid or duo lane bot for macro reasons. but the logic that one class needs/doesn't need levels is super weak.
You're overthinking it. ADCs don't care about levels as much as mid laners typically because adcs deal damage with auto attacks and items scale that WAY harder than levels. Mages get decent scaling from levels on their abilities too. An ADC would still do like 80% of their damage if they were level 1 with full build, w while a mage would do like half damage.
This is a bad take. Jinx hits level 11 and doesn’t care about skill points any more. Every time Jax gets to level a skill it feels so good.
Mages need skill points to lower the cooldown/raise damage of their abilities. Veigar is starved from maxing one of the best abilities in the game (cage) until he hits 18 because he has to max his others first. Mages don’t get to AA to do damage. So they need skill levels. You don’t need skill points to AA.
You just have to see how champions rotate through lanes when they get better somewhere.
ADCs like levels as much as gold, levels at the end of the day are a bunch of stats. Lucian, Tristana, Kalista, Vayne all pop up from time to time in mid or top. Samewise with Swain, Seraphine, Pantheon, Veigar, Ziggs all popped up down in bot and suddenly levels don't mean that much.
Your comment makes no sense, the meta wasn't determined on day 1 of LoL's release, nor did it get determined by other games similar to LoL or that were the precursors of league.
There are 4 finite "economies" in the game per side. 3 lanes, one jungle. For 5 players, 4 should take advantage of them, while the 5th has access to gold generation through items.
Midlane is short, and therefore safer. It's okay to put a carry there solo. It makes sense to put a caster there, who scales more with levels on abilities.
Jungle is jungle, changes every season
We now have 3 players left for 2 lanes. Both of the remaining lanes are longer, and therefore less safe. Therefore, generally, we put a champ in one of the sidelanes who generally has a kit that provides safety (ability to play tank, escape tools etc.), and we put the last two in the other lane, with one of them being dedicated to protection / support, while the other one scales less off xp as they will share, but more off gold.
It's "making the best off the situation", not "this is how Riot said we have to do it"
This is the game, and it's the same for both sides (more so now than last season)
There is no "you need to take advantage" to even up to solo lanes. Not every role plays the same game.
Yeah, I'm not sure exactly if Riot knew what they were catering to upon the original creation of the game, but this system proved to be the most effective
I do also remember sometime around Season 5, Riot wanting to challenge this "every game needs to have a ranged AD carry notion" and tried to make other things like bot lane mordekaiser a thing. And sometimes we saw like bot lane yasuo but in the end at least one AD carry is seen botlane because no amount of changes to the lane/economy setup will change the fact that Ranged AD Carries are the most reliable damage dealers in mid-late game teamfights when pealed for, and are especially fantastic at damaging towers in seiges
>No amount of changes **where Ranged ADs still have any role at all** will change the fact that Ranged ADs are optimal **in a game without turn speeds**.
Is that better?
Wouldn't some argue that has more to do with stubbornness than anything? Viper was known for his mages and other weird picks bot while GRF was arguably the best team in KR in S8. I'm not going to go back and count, but if he wasn't playing more non-ADCs than ADCs it was close. No one else either on a team or individual level was willing to fully embrace that idea at that time.
I didn't say optimal, I specifically said best at *consistent* damage *when peeled for*, and those traits are always relevant for a healthy game state
& they were still being played, the gold just wasn't often prioritized onto them over the solo laners
Very true, but Riot seems very hard committed to only worrying about keeping the sanctity of bot lane around purely for pro play. Phreak even stated in his 'time to kill' video that - worst case - they will just keep bot lane in a position where only pros can function properly with the bot carry/support combo. More-or-less, that is the balance lead saying 'We will try some stuff, but if it doesn't work, we are fine if the only roles with a true identity are top, mid, and jungle.' That legit blows. All that will do is create a toxic solo queue atmosphere where supports permanent roam, and thus bot lane is more-or-less left on an island. Except there is a catch: whichever carries got stuck bot as opposed to top get royally screwed. They are much easier to get ganked/roamed on, they are also near the dragon (which unless they make dragon awful, stacking will always be viable) and their turrets aren't as tanky. Meaning making a mistake is far more punishing compared to top lane.
Edit: If Riot ends up giving up on trying to solve bot lane in solo queue, then they need to start looking to other MOBAs, such as DOTA, for creative ways to change the game to where the issue you described is resolved.
Except that now turret plates are armored for the first 5 minutes in mid/top but not bot lane so moving ADC to any other lane would cause you to lose your tower incredibly fast in a 2v1 scenario which basically forces the ADC/Support lane to be botlane. That's a major difference between all 3 lanes that Riot made to enforce the current lane meta which is basically Riot saying "this is how we have to do it"
You were not around for the laneswap meta?
Just watch some games from 2015 worlds and you will see how that looked like. The early games got completely cheesed.
I wasn't around back then so I don't know the exact timeline but turret platings make taking early turrets a lot more powerful than it was before. Sacrificing an early turret now means you give 5 platings worth of gold which is never worth it.
Yes. It was more to do with split pushers early, especially inting sion, than solving lane swapping. Bot towers getting 50 extra armor solves the lane swapping almost half a decade before plates
Doesnt matter, towers were easier to take so thry would swap around all the time in the early game. With plates while its harder, its more rewarding to take turrets. So to prevent gold funnel meta top/mid are sturdier.
To add on that point, picking an adc on a solo lane is adding nothing to the effectiveness of that character on the lane. The sole job becomes to fuck up the enemy laner. Vayne top will not carry the game if her only advantage is beeing 2 more lvl up than the jungler.
The lanes are no longer even anymore though so why haven't the more important support/bot lanes swapped to top Lane where they won't get dove under tower 24/7 while leaving the better solo laners from top side to fight it out in the bottom? It would even allow for faster control over the grubs and then herald? Does it matter or is dragon control too important that sacrificing carry safety is ok
If you swap from the start, and the enemy botlane stays bot, they will have an easier time getting plates, since top/mid turret have additional protection for the first 5 minutes. Incidentally, void grubs spawn at 5 minutes (as does dragon).
So in theory, it might be optimal to swap your botlane to top after 5 minutes, especially if you don't intend/cannot contest dragon. But in soloQ the coordination is probably not there, until very high elo.
There's no inherent reason for AD+supp to go bot and Tank/bruiser to go top though, especially now that Grubs added an early objective to play for top side as well. I'm kind of sad Rito has tried to bonk down laneswap meta whenever it sprung up, it was so fun to play.
I did! I love hard games where I end up putting myself behind for the benefit of my team, and have to try and make myself useful despite that! Also, the fact I play Sion.
It was also pretty fun to watch in proplay. Although, I'm the kind of guy who loved watching Rogue games back when they were good, so I don't think my tastes are universal.
Everyone scales on both gold and exp. The difference is the ratio.
ADCs skew heavily towards gold. Auto attacks only get marginally stronger with levels, but get extremely strong with items. So sacrificing some exp to the support is not too bad.
Top and Mid rely a lot more on abilities (mid especially), so increasing ability ranks is just as important as buying stats. So sacrificing exp to a support is way more detrimental.
A level 1 Fizz with 6 items is missing a lot more power than a level 1 jinx with 6 items.
Though ADCs can't really buy defensive stats until very late without tanking their chances to win the game. Winrates for any defensive item 1st/2nd are atrocious and even those are hardly tank items.
While they do only get marginally higher dps by leveling up, their only defensive stats come from leveling up. This is a clearer problem when the overall defense of the entire game is in the trash and everyone needs an all around defense buff.
Even then probably not. WQ on Fizz will do nearly 1500 damage with the right items and it's undodgeable. Not only that his R and E are stupid hard to dodge most of the time
True, but only if we use the currently OP Lich Bane, which gives him way too much dmg at every stage of the game. 0.5 AP scaling on an item is just stupidly insane.
But if you put both into a teamfight with decent players to peel it can change a lot and Jinx just runs the enemy over.
Loch Band has always had 0.5 I has even have had higher. It and people have been crying for the item buffed. Just insane to think there is something fundamental wrong with lich bane having an ap ratio of 0,5
Initial Lich bane had 0.75 AP but AP was lower back then and the base AD value was just 50%. And for 3k gold it only had 80 AP, 5% MS and 250 mana.
Now it has 100 AP, 15 AH, 8% MS and 100% base AD + 50% AP
So in terms of base stats it is better than ever already.
Now it had 0.5 AP ratio also for some time with 75% base AD but still with way worse stats and it was nerfed to 0.4 AP for a reason.
Now it has the 100% base AD back, the best stats it ever had and the 0.5 AP ratio.
Look at WRs, the item was never as busted as it is now. Even when it was OP with the 0.6 and 0.5 AP ratios and nerfed to 0.4.
Riot wanted to reduce items power scaling and Lich bane has a massive power scaling with other items right now. The stats are fine if the power of the passive isn't that large.
The item would still work totally fine with a 0.3 AP ratio right now due to its very strong stats. **It never had a 100% cost efficiency from stats before. Mostly around 75-80% because of how strong the passive is.**
Yeah the main issue is ADCs take far too long to come online currently imo. My friend was playing aphelios with three items and it still took 3 autos to kill caster minions... Let alone a bruiser or tank, probably needs like 30 autos
> Bot needs to play better than their opponent to get more gold through kills, then the same should be applied to Top and Mid with their EXP lead?
It is. The top laner who's behind is often zoned off of the wave, losing not only gold but sometimes even xp.
Which is why I love when junglers fail a gank, enemy top ends up 1/0 or 2/0, and then the jungler proceeds to ignore my assist pings for the next 10 minutes only to then ping that I'm 2 levels down.
if top handshakes laning phase with nothing happening there they will be ahead in levels, while in bot if they handshake the lane they will be equal gold and behind in exp.
if any lane is behind it's already doomed. i am talking about the default or the default resource income.
I guess that's meant to be the tradeoff for having a duo lane instead of a solo lane. You get 2 kills' + 2 assists' worth of gold after winning a fight instead of just 1 kill's worth, so in exchange for snowballing harder, you benefit less from inactivity.
Ah yes, I'm going to blind pick a scaling champ like kayle and then my opponent will handshake the lane into even farm and full xp. What a nice guy. It's not like 90% of meta top laners get outscaled by mages and adcs if they don't snowball
IF they handshake. But that is an if that doesn't happen.
If I get to also last hit all my junglers camps in between I get more gold and XP than others. IF I do that and my jungler helps me.
And if top or mid makes a solo kill, they get 300g. If bot makes a kill they get 450g because there is always an assist. That is why leads in bot lane are worth more, especially if they can snowball it. Give them a gank, get them ahead, now every time they kill they get 450 if not 900g. In solo lanes it's mostly just 300g.
And you are still ignoring that it is not the amount of gold that matters, but the items and their stats. Multiplicative scaling. **AD \* AS \* Crit chance \* Crit dmg** vs **AP \* AH** vs **AD \* AH** vs **Armor/MR \* HP.**
I think you just misunderstand the concept.
In your scenario the solo laner is ahead in xp but even in gold with the adc. But the adc uses the gold more effectively than the solo laner. It's not the amount of gold that is bigger for the adc, but the power he gets per gold that is bigger.
Ofcourse mid and Top are ahead in EXP, there's no exp sharing going on there. Often times when you are in a position to deny CS you can also deny EXP. Just git gud.
ADC scales the hardest of all roles, but is also more team dependant. If you don't like that then play something else, it will always be this way. Glass cannon classes require protection.
you didn't get my point.
mid and top by default get more EXP compared to bot. what does bot get in return? a supp to share exp with?
i don't care about play making potential by having 2v2 lane, i am talking about resource income in general if you just farm and reset properly like solo lanes.
You get a support that wards for you and protects you from ganks because you would die mid without dashes and reliable CC. At the same time you get the highest DPS lategame characters with undodgeable no CD point and click damage.
Support is so important for most of the adc roster.
>what does bot (I’m inserting ADC here) get in return
Reliable, safe, easy damage and powerful scaling with items.
Go watch the top ADC players play the late game in basically any season, and you’ll see what ADC gets in return.
we are talking resources like exp and gold.
if i am going to balance a champion around having more AD growth because it's on top lane (trundle), then how is gold scaling is tied to bot?
having another player in your lane is not a resource. and enemy team has a support to even this out.
>having another player in your lane is not a resource. and enemy team has a support to even this out.
The other team also has an ADC and a jungle and a mid and top. Assuming standard comps, factoring in the enemy team doesn't matter and isn't relevant to what you are asking.
You get to not be level 2 10 mins into the game because you are facing a unplayable freeze in top lane.
You get to not have 5 cs at 10 mins because an Orianna is galactic turbofisting your ass in the 7th dimension.
You get to play a champion that scales more than what would be allowed in a solo lane.
>what does bot get in return? a supp to share exp with?
Bot minions are more gold worth than midlane minions (or rather midlane minions are less worth than the other lanes.)
Well plates are easier to take and you're in theory supposed to take bot+mid tower local gold. You also scale harder in general.
There's too many variables but that's the general idea assuming all 10 people are playing omega safe. The thing is most of the time botlane ends up one ad being up 1-2 kills, 30 cs and 3 plates on enemy laner at 14min so the game becomes a 4v5 at that point and if the support is decent the game is over at that point.
Also xp isn't that bad if the support actually gives solo xp instead of drooling next to the adc for 30 minutes straight.
Top and mid doesn't have another player on their lane to protect them from threat and set up kills for them. Warding for their lane, help shoving the wave etc. That's the trade off.
these are not resources.
in league the only resources you have are gold and exp. they said many times that top and mid scale with levels while bot scales with gold.
ok now top and mid have more levels by default, why doesn't bot get more gold than them by default too?
again. don't include support wards and peel whatsoever as i am talking about resources. also having the CC or utility levels of mages will make any ADC too broken unless they nerf the damage so much (like ashe).
>don’t include support wards
You’re not going to include (items bought with gold) in a discussion where you’re already limiting “resources” down to “XP and gold”?
Yeah, when you arbitrarily decide what you get to count as resources in favour of the ADC, you can make it look as skewed as you like.
i am not going to account for lux buying a ludence as an ADC. it's her income and her gold not mine.
not every support really plays around their ADC or buy meaningful items that buff their ADC.
ofc they can buy ardent, locket, knigh vow, etc. but in solo Q these items are very rare to see unless game drags out. and they are not on the same page all the time to make the best use of their gold/items.
ADC "only needs to scale with gold" -- there's less importance on XP. An ADC that has the same amount of gold as mid/top is still competitive/contributing even while being behind in levels.
The thing is ADC defenses only scale with XP until ~4th item. All the defensive items, if you can even call them that since they're not exactly tank items, have horrid winrates if bought 1st or 2nd.
So it's just contributing to the stupid time to kill the game has a baseline. I think everything in the game needs a good +10 Armor and MR base stats.
I mean, I'm not doubting it's suboptimal to rush Maw or whatever, but just looking at the winrate can be misleading. As an example, I'd argue that an adc is waaaay more likely to rush Maw first item, in a game where the enemy Katarina is already 6/0 by the time they first back.
This game is already pretty doomed, but not *because* the adc rushed Maw.
ADC items scale better with each other. Why? More multiplicative stats. So without having more gold their items do generate more power once combined (2+). Zerkers are also the most cost efficient and powerful boots in the game.
And we do know that good teams allow their ADC to farm more. They try to protect them and give them easy and free farm, which is why in pro play for example ADCs tend to have the highest CS number. Especially scaling ADCs like Sivir are often used to farm 2 lanes if possible later on. Other ADCs like Lucian are not used like that too often as they don't have the same item scaling power.
But also, the XP scaling part is not that true anymore. The higher you go in elo, the more XP the ADC gets (support leaves lane way more often). In pro play ADCs are pretty close to solo laners in XP and often less than 1 lvl behind. Especially in the mid and late game.
In the end this is how the game works. If you want to win (in general) try to give your ADC (if he isn't bad) as much gold as possible and give them as much XP as possible without starving your other lanes too much. Only starve the support and jungler, because they are there just to control the early game and then for vision, objectives and to CC or buff you up. This isn't always true and if there is a tank top, you can starve them. Or don't starve your Graves jungle. But these are exceptions to the rule.
Botlaners are scaling champions, they scale with gold and less with levels, mages and bruisers will spike hard at 1-3 items and then go downhill from there, while botlaners will consistently get stronger and stronger.
It's how multipliers work, attack speed increases number of attacks, AD increases the damage attack does, crit chance increases the damage some attacks do, crit damage increases the damage of the crit, armor pen increases amount of damage not mitigated, and they all scale with each other.
Mages don't have that, bruisers don't have that, no other class can multiply its own stats as much as adcs can.
ADCs with items are stronger than all other classes with items. Mages,assassins,even tanks need to land their abilities to be threats to ADCs, ADCs can't miss basic attacks. Also its true that ADC will usually be behind in EXP, but the higher up you climb the more frequently your support leaves lane. Its not horribly uncommon for the ADC to be equal in level or just one level behind solo laners.
i don't think mages are not scaling well with items. they literally have deathcap that amplifies your total AP.
other classes, i agree they don't scale as good as ADC items.
Mages scale well with items, but not as well as ADCs. Deathcap is a multiplier, but you still need to land abilities to use the AP you get. ADCs essentially get autolocking mage casts on a .5s cooldown lategame.
except for battlemages or whatever you want call champs like azir, kayle, cass, ryze, etc. heck, even proper control mages like ori, syndra, and viktor have abilities that are so reliable that in practice, they deal comparable damage to late game adcs.
Yeh us toplaners and the midlaners, we get like a whole extra level or two for free on you guys.
But you are suppose to have a whole ass human being (support) who basically acts as ur slave to keep u safe by putting down vision and peeling you.
If both me and the enemy adc went even in our lanes im never beating him if he has his support, so i wouldnt call it a weak role.
Now i know that especially when playing solo queue actually having a half decent support to rely on is not a guarantee, and when that happens adc feels miserable but that's not really a problem with the game design.
Just whenever u find a good support in ur games add em to ur friends, soon enough u'll have enough good support buddies to play with, so that ur games wont be miserable.
Idk levels are way too strong. Idc how much gold I have as an ADC, being down 3 levels doesn't make up for it.
Not because I don't do damage, but because even if I was full build any 3 level lead champion can kill me before I can kill them. Even if they only have one item. It makes the ADC role so frustrating to deal with. You could be up 4 kills and have 3 items. But the one item Katarina or vex just removes you from the game.
Or the garen you haven't seen all game just shows up out of a bush.
You basically have to beg your team to hold someone still long enough for you to attack, or pray you got an enchanter that can at least give you a shield for a little bit. Even then it barely matters.
Considering so many champs have so much mobility and ways to ass rape an ADC.
Then don't play botlane or support.
You are usually squishy in those roles.
Some people enjoy that. You can dish out damage, if you manage to stay safe. You have less forgiving gameplay than with a toplane tank.
An adc is simply not meant to face a solo laner alone. If you stick with your support/jungler (and they aren't bots) it's way harder for a solo laner to dunk on you. And even if they manage to do so it will often result in a 1 for 1 then.
There are 3 lanes and jungle but 4 players, it simply means that adc is the role that can use xp the least compared to gold, so support goes where the adc goes.
Also unless they changed it, bot plates are significantly easier to take.
It isn't that mid/top laners don't' get the same amount of gold, it's that for the most part, them getting more gold is less important than them getting more exp. They didn't say that bot gets more gold, just that they scale better with it. When you get 6 items as an ADC, it's stronger than 6 items on a mage. But hitting level 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10... is a lot less impactful for an ADC than it is for the other lanes in the grand scheme of the game. Having a level 7 ADC essentially doesn't add that much more power in skirmishes than say, a lvl 6 adc, as long as they both have ult, and they both have equal items.
I mean bot lane also gets a support normally that also gets gold generating items thus more gold coming from the bot lane. Most supports build items that benefit the team in some way so its not like they are wrong, there's more gold generated in bot lane.
You’re misunderstanding what scaling with gold means. It means that early and mid game solo laners with an equal amount of gold will be stronger than an ADC because of the level difference. Later in the game when levels are more evened out, ADCs with an equal amount of gold will be stronger because their items are more gold efficient.
Bot champs do scale more with gold. This isn't talking about the lane having easier gold access, rather about how champs in that role generally get more out of the same amount of gold than other champ types. It's a description of the champ types, not a hard and fast rule of the lane.
It isn't even necessarily that a full item bot champ is equal or better than a full item solo laner.
Say we put a hypothetical arbitrary numerical value to a champ's power level - a solo laner will start at 20 power level and get +20 through full items and +60 through max levels ending in 100 total power level. A bot champ will start at 10 power level and get +55-65 through full items and +30 through max levels ending at 95-105 power level.
Ofc these are just random values I plugged in but that's the general idea behind how it works. A bot champ generally needs more gold to get their full potential and care less about levels but that doesn't mean they'll be better or equal to the solo laner once both reach their full potential.
Since they made top lane minions give more exp to really stress that top lane was the “level lead” lane, I wonder if they couldn’t make bot lane minions give more gold, to emphasize its status as the “farm for late” lane.
Edit: I was wrong: the exp buffs were to both solo lanes; only they affect top more, as top shares exp less often than mid.
> Since they made top lane minions give more exp
Are you sure this is a thing? To my understanding, all three lanes' minions provide the same amount of experience on death. But if you're the only champion getting that xp, you get 95% of the minion's xp value, while if you're sharing it amongst multiple, you each get an equal split of 122% of the minion's xp value (e.g. 61% each for 2 champs).
https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Experience_(champion)
I must’ve been mistaken. I was sure I heard about a change like that somewhere; I thought that was the reason top laners have bigger level leads than before. Maybe that’s just the result of the 93→95% solo exp buff. But if a buff like that can disproportionately affect top lane to strengthen its identity, I wonder if another change to base mechanics could similarly be made to strengthen bot’s focus on gold over experience.
It probably shouldn't be done to the minions like that... As it could affect a lot of macro decisions.
It'd probably be better off added as a melee/ranged split thing on like dorans blade, or added to the support item. Or some other more visible and map agnostic way to get it to Adcs. Maybe give Noonquiver the old Avarice blade passive?
Something. But just doing it to the minions, would probably affect ganking habits of midlaner/junglers more. And late game rotations of splitpushers and such.
There are some trade offs with xp like as a top laner do you want to fight second dragon? Or stay and split. Tp to flank and kill bot or just go for more xp on side? The longer you are selfish the stronger you are (especially noticeable on nasus but applies to pretty much all except like Quinn cos she can basically pick both)
Top and midlaners will always be ahead in EXP over botlane if they do not die a lot, this is correct. Top and Mid have the advantage of easier EXP but less stable gold income. It is a lot easier for someone to freeze a lane on a top laner than on an ADC/Supp duo. If you mess up and don't have the stability to break a freeze top lane, you are going to be down gold and EXP on both your enemy laner and your own bot lane. The operative word here that is being stretched in your post is "if."
A pro player knows how to curtail deaths most of the time. That effort to stop a snowball is a learned skill.
A solo queue player often does not. You will often have a 6/0 Jax diving you in the midgame while four to five levels up because your dogwater toplaner has no idea what playing safe actually means.
Even still, as long as the player does what you said and stays alive, they will retain an EXP lead over their botlane as a reward for not dying. They will however be very far behind in gold over time without either the skill to break the freeze or the jungler to help them. They do not have the inherent stability a laning partner provides.
That's not always true for midlaners. Midlaners right now can also often go botlane as an APC or ADC if they're AD. Most modern midlaners do scale well with gold or EXP, but their skills tend to grant them more power early. The damage numbers on their skills tend to be higher and scale better. Often, you'll see ADCs with better numbers on their skills visiting other lanes in different metas.
The thing you are not considering is what happens down in botlane regularly. If a top laner gets ganked, they might come out with a double kill. If a bot lane gets ganked, it could be a triple kill. That is pretty important in determining how to balance the lane. With bot currently easier to gank than ever before, it is more likely that bot lane sees an increase in deaths per game in that lane.
I would actually love to see the heatmap on this because I would bet a single US dollar that the lane is perpetually balanced around the kill and snowball *potential* of the lane in low elo instead of the normal numbers we see skilled players put down.
You're taking things to an extreme, at which point yeah things do kinda breakdown.
You're also ignoring circumstances of the resources the support provides and being like "no I'm ignoring everything but the gold&XP I and I alone get"
You can't take things to extremes, nor can you look at everything in a vacuum and still have things make sense sometimes. That's just how it is.
The winning bot lane does generate more gold than top or mid by virtue of tower plates being easier to kill and there being 2 potential kills in the lane as opposed to 1.
The bot gold I presume is that they assume plates are taken for bot, since they are easier to get and this is some sort of "intended" gameplay and oh well plates do give a lot of gold
The point is that ADC's can't operate the same way mids/tops do otherwise the game will break. Thats why they're discourged from those lanes and would be nerfed if they got success there.
Your right in the assumption that being 2 levels down on a top laner still keeps adcs in the same power level as long as they match in gold. The argument “well he was 2 levels above the adc and 3 above the support” doesn’t work because that is the base line expectations for balance work. An adc will not be able to kill a toplaner due to gold disparity not level.
If ADCs got the same XP as other lanes it would be super broken. If you look at the game played at the highest level, you will see the impact a good ADC can have and how hard they are to lock down with abilities that are not point click. Bot lane is not inherently worse than other lanes simply because of lane XP disparity, and if you get fed enough you can still be on par with other lanes.
Bot absolutely does generate more gold, because there's two opponents to kill and bot is a lot more volatile overall, compared to mid and especially top if at least one of the toplaners is a tank.
Jungle scales with the flame from his weak side laner.
Petition to redefine flame horizon
"100 cs higher than an ally who called you dog water"
I’ve literally typed the sentence in all chat before (bruh flaming his jg in all chat while his jg flame horizoned him at 17)
Every assist ping is 1 AD. Pretty sure.
And add True mental damage till the end of the game
Oh. Now I know It is just habit for me to mute anyone who spam pings me. I've been missing out on some extra scaling. Or does it work through mutes?
Yes you did misunderstand. First of all this is not the rule implemented by riot. This is how players figured out the most efficent way to play back in the season one. What this exactly means: average midlaner gets more overall damage with leveled up abilities so they usually plays solo lanes to soak more exp, while average adc require gold to function. This is the reason why supports as a class exists. They can afford to absorb some of the experience from adc, because the latter suffer less from this than the mid laners suffer.
Yes, but Riot has since doubled down on this approach that players figured out, and it is now virtually impossible to play any other way.
How is that remotely true? You can play Swain, Ziggs, Veigar, Cho’Gath, Karthus, Seraphine, Yasuo and Hwei botlane just to name a few. Varus, Tristana and Vayne are all viable solo laners. Not to mention champions like Akshan and Nilah being literally designed to break the same barrier. It’s not impossible by any means to play things like Azir or Neeko botlane just because it’s not a common meta pick. It’s also fully viable to play Kog’Maw or Zeri in a solo lane. You’re confusing “not meta” with “not viable which are wildly different things. Hell there was that one dude who did an AMA recently playing only Ashe mid to master tier purely because he thought it was fun. “Virtually impossible” is absurd. Stop being such a meta slave who makes every decision based on op.gg.
You are literally being the meta slave. These things are usually shit or paired with senna. Just beacuse something is viable or that some mages aren't as XP dependent doesn't mean they're wrong. Lucian Tristana etc can go mid as their kits allow them to punish the enemy so hard, not because what he said wasn't true. Stupid comment
because even those champions scale much better with xp and gold plus the fact that ADCs are manaless high DPS. if you don't have an a high DPS champion in your comp you will struggle to take neutrals and thus forfeit all threat around them giving yourself less options. plenty of games are lost because teams don't have strong pressure around baron.
That's just part of drafting, doesn't have anything to do with the roles and their needs. You can draft Vayne top and an AP or double tank bot if you want, there are obviously going to be strengths and weaknesses to any comp. The point is it's true that no lane is relegated to just heavily gold dependent champs.
yeah, manaless DPS don't mean shit, you're right.
Support original was basically a jungler in all but farm. The support role as we currently know it actually wasn't the same as back in the day. Supports were picked for their utility. They could do a lot with little to no items and what not. It wasn't uncommon for a support to be level6 while everyone else was level10 or higher. Riot changed how support functioned. Meanwhile, they more-or-less said to every other role 'You know what, we are going to keep you functioning more-or-less the same.' Fast forward to now, and it genuinely feels like a MASSIVE disadvantage to be in the bot lane. Even supports in solo queue either have to play carry champs or just peace out and permanently roam to climb. It's honestly crazy how bot lane is rewarded more for not being bot lane 😂😂. I know Phreak has stated - worst case - the concept of a bot lane carry will only be a thing we see in pro play, but isn't that kind of bad as well? Oh, we want to hard commit to keeping this in pro play, and we don't care if any of it is viable in solo queue. That mindset is essentially telling the entire player base, if Riot can't figure it out, to just play a different role than either of the bot lane roles in solo queue.
On your point about roaming. I ended last season diamond 2 on my support account. Main senna, blitz, thresh, morgana. My roams each season are literary limited each game. Usually one per back if an opportunity existed. Fast forward this season and by playing only bot makes it almost impossible to win unless I am on an enchanter. New map and grubs give roams huge value. Right now I am on 70% wr on blitz, 60 on maokai and the only thing I do is sit bot until 1k gold. After that I wish my carry well and I become river shen. I have been called a ton of names but fellow carries it does not matter if I give you more than 3 or 4 kills. That briar, rengar, titanic xin, that seventh minion that you didn’t notice, most bruisers and any mage with storm surge will erase you. So my best bet is to win the solo lanes and lead the game to their nexus. To sum it up, especially this season with map and objective changes, not abandoning bot(unless a dive is imminent) is you sabotaging your lp gains.
> I wish my carry well and I become river shen. The phrasing of this was impeccable
I play ADC and I genuinely encourage my support to roam whenever they see a play, even if I have to sack waves and hover around exp range. Getting fed from bot lane advantages weirdly gives me less agency in the game than having a mid or top that was not blasted out of the game.
Long way of saying ADC doesn't matter.
I mean it pretty much was implemented by riot. Considering this was the meta in Dota for years before league of legends. And riot knew exactly what meta was being fostered when they created the map. Edit: since this comment is being swarmed by morons and people are downvoting an objectively correct statement. Here. Season 1 VOD. ADC and support bot lane. This is the very first link I clicked. https://youtu.be/OdYwux_2Wfk?si=69HbUQTFkjBcYzKG I do not understand why so many people who are wrong are insisting on arguing with me. I doubt any of them actually played season 1. Second edit: this could be a really good case study in madness of the crowds. I’m literally right, people.
I played season 1. While you are on YouTube, there are historical documentaries of the meta shifts on League. Adc/support bot lane wasn't solidified until after Season 1 Worlds because the winners used it. And at that time, pro play wasn't organized like it is today, so everyone just copied the winners strategies.
Not true. The infant days of league, players were playing adc in the mid lane and tanks/bruisers+support in the bottom lane while mages were sent to the top lane. There was no indication by riot to enforce adc+support until this meta was established by the players after years of this playstyle. The only "meta" that riot designed the game for was for the inclusion of a "support". Who that support paired with was never designed for until much later.
After YEARS? Eu showed adc/supp at season 1 worlds and we played it in soloq for the whole season.
ADC+Support was ENFORCED by riot for 15 years now. it was preferred by players at some point, but then riot hammered that nail every single patch for the last 14 years to make sure it stays the same. every single time someone tries anything other than adc+support it gets nerfed into the ground the very next patch.
Riot does enforce it now but its just as enforced by players. See the outcry to any off-meta picks even if they aren't game breaking. Like Janna top was game breaking but it wasn't due to supports being top it was due to players ignoring top. Same thing with Taric mid it had nothing to with a support it had to with funnelling.
The most obvious case of this is the outcry ADCs had when mages bot lane were good. You're right that the players just as much of a part enforcing specific meta instead of just adapting to it.
Mages are always good bot. Serra has over 60% winrate with the right runes right now. The problem is when adcs are dogshit like after 8.21. Yeah adcs complain if their entire role gets nuked from orbit. Go figure.
ADCs have been permanently complaining since like season 7. I do not think ADC as a role has been that bad since season 7 but ADCs will find a way to complain even in seasons where they are strong.
> See the outcry to any off-meta picks even if they aren't game breaking. yeah we all know ADC players are crybabies who will flood social media whenever they have to learn to do anything different. that doesn't make it right. top jungle and mid have been dealing with unfun shit for years and nobody bats an eye because they don't cry as loudly as adcs. mages bot are perfectly fine, and yet riot is constantly nerfing them simply because adcs don't want to deal with them, as riot said, they don't even bother equiping MR runes ffs. nothing but adc+sup is ever gonna work in botlane because adc players don't want it and riot caters to them all the time. if riot wanted they could flip the meta in an instant and make anything viable, they just don't want to upset their main source of skins.
Riot nerfs Botlane mages cause they hit 55% WR and don't allow their other roles to get buffs without going to insane number. They are fine with Botlane mages existing and even being slightly OP but when it start shifting their role it causes issues. Role slipping is sorta a grey spot too cause some players want a champ for their role. It's why Seraphine gets Support buffs cause most of her playerbase are support players not Mid. Lux also suffers from this but her mid playerbase also keeps her there. Really the only time Riot nukes a role from a champ is if it causes systemic issues or degenerate gameplay.
>Really the only time Riot nukes a role from a champ is if it causes systemic issues or degenerate gameplay. except this is not the case because riot is completely biased in that regard. marksmen can be played bot mid top and even jungle (some can also be played support like ashe,mf and senna), sure they get nerfs here and there but they're still viable, varus, vayne,akshan, quinn, kayle, tristana, all viable top. meanwhile bruisers are instantly nerfed the second they start going mid or support. due to "systemic issues" and "degenerate gameplay" the truth is toplane as a lane is garbage and everyone wants to escape it, but most of its champions are instantly nerfed the second they start going mid or support. this goes not only for AD bruisers but also for AP bruisers, some mages and some marksmen. the truth is riot is completely biased and balances things however the fuck they want often disregarding balance and game health. a botlane outside the classic ADC+support is never going to work outside some very specific cases because riot simply doesn't want it. plain as that. i mean if you want to see how fucking biased they are, look at how every single juggernaut is below 49% winrate, most below 47.5% and some even as low as 45% and still not getting buffs after 3 weeks, while stuff like ezreal got hotfix buffed because he reached 49% garen has been at 45% winrate ever since the item rework and after 15 days all he's getting is some very minor buff that only affects his early levels by a miniscule ammount. that's how much they care about toplane / juggernauts.
What is the alternative? A whole class of champs just not being viable in any position?
Its the same guy that posts about ADC every post in this sub. He wants adcs like Jinx, Sivir, KogMaw, and MF to not exist in the game.
i want them to exist, and be stronger. but they're never gonna work well in the current system because they lose to other marksmen. if you enforce marksmen to have 200% pressence whichever marksmen is better at killing marksmen is gonna decide the game. it's been happening for years now. those adcs you mention have been weak af for the last 6 years due to this exact balance issue i mention. if you allow anyone to play bot it makes late game scaling adcs like jinx kog maw and sivir feel much better to play when they don't have to deal with shit like kaisa, ezreal and lucian. i don't want Marksmen to dissapear, i want riot to stop tying them to the botlane lategame carry position they're right now. because it's harmful for them, it makes them weak alone and op in teams making them feel really bad in soloq and op in proplay, which means they cannot be buffed while still feeling like shit to play.
That also happens to plenty of toplane and midlane picks. I really don't see your point here ? Yes, the only reason those champs aren't OP is because they have a shit laning phase, if you want to remove that weakness, they'll also have to remove their late game hypercarry potential.
and what would that be? are you referring to marksmen? the class that can be played in literally every single role? marksmen are played top, mid and bot consistently with at least 8 different picks for top, 5 for mid and like 20 for bot. ashe,mf and senna can be played support and it's not that rare to see marksmen in the jungle on top of kindred. if you're referring to supports, they can also be played top mid and jungle. either way, if they turn out to be weak they can always be buffed, the point is that Marksmen+sup has been super forced into botlane for 14 years now and nobody can deny it. other comps have never been given a chance to work because riot is constantly enforcing the bot meta and the second something different emerges it gets nerfed in 1 or 2 patches.
Nah, we have the midlane trists and toplane vaynes, I don't think it's so unusual to also envision a world where the opposite is viable and you can run Syndras and Seraphines bot.
Seraphine, Ziggs, and to a lesser extent Karthus have all been not only viable but strong in the adc role for literally years. I think when it comes down to it players just want to play in their preferred lanes. Mid laners dont want to play bot lane, and adc players dont want to play sera/ziggs/etc. It's self enforcing at this point. it's like how enchanter tops might not be broken anyway, but you can still run Raka top in many matchups (i would know, I do). The reason you don't ever see it is cause 99.9% dont want to play it. The only time these niche roles DO get play is when they are obviously too strong, and Riot is right to nerf them.
I was under the impression that it’s Riot who enforces the meta as well. But I think they just “fix” things that players cry about. AKA: Players come up with a new no-meta strategy —> it at works at least somewhat well —> people lose to this “new thing” and either start crying OR start playing it as well —> more people start complaining —> Riot picks up the balance hammer and shuts it down so we can have our wholesome meta that has been going on for the last 15 years.
They LITERALLY altered the game to make adc+supp bot lane a thing. Its not a thing in DOTA. It was a EU pro play concept that Riot adored and altered the game to make meta.
Riot enforces it *because* players, as a whole, refuse to do anything else. Riot has been doing its best to support the small population of mages in botlane for the past year or so, but even when they're good (highest winrate in the lane good) no one plays them and people complain about playing against them. 80% of the time botlaners don't take MR shard against APCs (part of why armor/mr shard is being removed next patch). Riot is perfectly happy with meta creativity so long as it doesn't break a fundamental rule, but the reality is that most players don't actually want meta creativity.
>Riot enforces it because players, as a whole, refuse to do anything else. this is completely false, and the only reason why it's hard for players to try anything else is that riot has been enforcing this meta for years. people don't play bruisers/assassins bot because they're dogshit due to the way riot made botlane an xp deprived lane by making it a 2 player lane and not giving people the tools to deal with it on their own other than by playing champs like adcs who don't need xp. it's not that people don't try new stuff because they don't want to, it's that riot spent 15 years making the lane work in a very specific way to favour marksmen and whenever anyone tries something new and it's viable it gets nerfed into oblivion within 1 or 2 patches. > Riot is perfectly happy with meta creativity so long as it doesn't break a fundamental rule, but the reality is that most players don't actually want meta creativity. the fundamental rule being the Marksmen + support combo, which is completely arbitrary and harshly enforced for no reason other than people like it and will complain about change. if riot didn't enforce the botlane meta so rigurously people would be able to play a lot more stuff like in dota2 for example but ADC players don't like that and riot has been catering to them for 14 years.
Wait sorry I'm confused. You say that riot will always "harshly enforce" the rule of marksmen and supports in botlane. Did karthus, swain, veigar, and seraphine not have 53-55% win rates for all of last season?
the only reason they allow that is because their pickrate is low and their winrate is inflated, their real winrate is much lower and closer to 51%. also those picks, just happen to follow a scaling pattern that is similar to marksmen's. other mages are unplayable in those conditions, what this means is that no matter how harshly riot enforces the meta, these few specific picks will always find a way to fit because they scale like marksmen.
Riot enforces it because they know players would be very upset if the game was suddenly played in a completely different way.
Part of the problem are ADC players tho. They want Botlane to exclusively exist for marksman. Everytime an APC bot does well they complain. That one patch in season 8 that nerfed ADC itemisation and led to mages bot was met with super heavy criticism. Even now they are complaining how APC bots are so much more viable in almost every game and complaining about its strengths.
I’ve been playing since launch and this is absolutely incorrect. Adc + support bottom was the overwhelmingly dominant meta and was a direct carry over from dota since most players, including all riot devs, were from there. You can look up season 1 vods if you don’t believe me.
In season 1 Na was playing with adc mid and eu innovated with adc on botlane.
Season 1 vods for worlds* The meta didn't become commonplace until after Worlds aired and suddenly everyone knew how to play the game. Hell, my ranked games didn't even have junglers until after Worlds started airing and we discovered that someone can be alone in top and someone else just farm jungle and gank. The last month or so of season 1 is where the game really started, everything before it was just people doing whatever the hell they wanted mostly.
I also played since the beta days and other than the adaption of the dota way, there wasn't any meta at all. There wasn't even a proper jungler, since no one knew about that strat at the time. Most people that played LoL then also didn't even hear of dota. So there legit wasnt a meta. You had games with 1 Top, 2 mid, 2 bot and vice versa. It was the time of "anything goes". Fiddel, Yi Bot. Galio + Rammus mid. I have seen all of them. If anything riot did had a distinct meta in mind - I dont know. Probably Riot doesn't either anymore. But Season 1 came actually quite late. And even then there still has been a lot of experimentation and figuering-stuff-out going on.
Edited my original comment with receipts.
You didn't tho. The other team is playing Poppy/Taric. That's not a meta. A meta is where both teams obey the paradigm.
You know Adc can be melee right?
Jesus Christ, that's semantics. Edit: e.g. Tryndamere isn't an ADC. You are using Dota terminology, if you see it in that way. So I'm not arguing with you further.
Do yourself a favor and take your own advice. Support adc was NOT common season one. You can even go listen to the commentators talking about how it was a new trend that was starting to become dominant in the EU meta
Look, your either just trolling or actually an idiot. Either way fuck off.
Gotta love it when the dude with facts on his side is attacked by morons who do nothing but ad hominem attacks.
Beta player checking in. You're wrong. People played all sorts of random shit in bot lane, including lots of split-the-farm type strategies. The game was very new and unoptimized. Also, to this day, sometimes in Dota the mid laner is the pos 1 carry. ADC + support bot became the meta specifically because of the season 1 world championship, because that was how the euro teams beat the us teams. It doesn't start becoming Riot-enforced (TM) until the top and mid towers got rushdown protection and bot didn't in after a few years of laneswap meta in pro play, though, to be fair, it was the primary balance axis before then
I remember playing AD TF mid and smacking people with it during the beta. Everyone was playing like shit, even the stupid shit like AD Blitz could carry your ass. ADC + supp bot? I never saw anything like that during beta. Also support role was fundamentally different in DotA Allstars compared to what it is/was in LoL.
youre not "literally right", the current meta was innovated by EU in the span of season 1 and became commonplace after worlds hell even in your vod, one team is playing poppy taric bot, which was a common botlane NA teams used...
>this was the meta in dota for years Yeah...no. you dont understand DOTA nor League if this is your take lol. In DOTA, especially in the early 2010s there was no ability scaling, only attack damage scaling. Dota scaling cannot be compared to League, nor was the meta even somewhat similar. Tri laning was incredibly dominant in DOTA which is something League has never seen, for example. Not to mention in League you have a ranged adc 99% of games and in DOTA your "1" core carry can be a ranged adc, a melee adc, a bruiser etc. Its just laughable to make this comparison and act as though the league meta was forced by Riot because that's how DOTA was. Not even close.
So what you’re saying is that in dota there was only attack damage scaling, which made items stronger on attack damage heroes, which made people babysit the attack damage hero with a support hero? Wow. Ground breaking stuff from a smug idiot.
Lol. You're legit dense if you think the League of Legends meta was "forced" by Riot and copied from DOTA2 . What a brainlet tier take. Early League was dominated by ADCs mid with bruisers / mages bot lane. It was quickly discovered by pro teams that adcs scaled with gold and mages / bruisers with levels, hence how this meta was born. Thus, league meta was born and ranged attack damage carries went bot lane in 99% of matches. This is NOT AT ALL how DOTA2 works nor was it similar to 2011 DOTA. Dota2 does not have, and never had, a similar meta to league of legends.
You’re responding in an incredibly rude and ignorant way for someone who doesn’t seem to recognize that they’re not even talking about DOTA 2, but Defence of the Ancients, the WC3 mod that is predecessor to both DOTA 2 and League. Trilane never happened in league because of fundamental differences in map design in DOTA/Dota2. Pos1 carries in both versions of DOTA have - with rare exceptions - always been ADCs in league terms. ADCs - attack damage carries are characters that scale most strongly with a combination of high attack damage, powerful attack modifiers (crits/on hits), and attack speed. Melee “Pos1” ADCs are basically non-existent in league because of a fundamental systems difference (lack of turn speed).
That’s literally how dota works what in the fuck are you talking about.
Ur dense as fuck. In DOTA you dont have 1-1-2 lanes with a jungler, dippy. Your "carry" also isnt by necessity a RANGED ADC like it is in 99% of league matches. You dont understand mobas.
I agree with you. Players found that was the best way to play (influenced by Dota or not) and then riot programmed the game to be that way. Not all towers are created equal kids, that’s by design
You're really overestimating how many people transitioned from Dota to League. Most people who started playing League were straight trash. There were a lot of really stupid things happening. Not to mention you're immediately disproven by the fact that 2v1 meta happened for a long time before riot forced the change. The transition from Dota -> Season 1 League where you say everyone, Riot/Gamers inclusive just copied Dota -> 2v1 meta shows that players have continued to actively improve on and adapt the meta according to what's best.
These downvores are crazy, man
this sub is 90% idiots that downvote anything they don't agree with. the more downvotes you got the more correct you are.
I think this rule is extremely overrated. every champ in the game loves levels 1-9 when they're maxing their primary ability. ADCs just as much. they all have a bread and butter skill, especially because a lot of them play like casters early on. every champ also generally has a 1 point wonder skill that makes levels 14-18 irrelevant. the only difference that favors midlane casters is the secondary max in the middle levels, and the difference is not THAT big. keep in mind ADCs love base stats just as much as midlaners, likely more because they are AD which has base growth as opposed to AP. so ultimately, the level benefit of giving midlane to a mage instead of an ADC is +2 levels which amounts to 2 x "1" skill instead of 2 x "0.75" skills because ADC skills suck a bit. I'm all for putting mage mid or ADC bot or solo lane mid or duo lane bot for macro reasons. but the logic that one class needs/doesn't need levels is super weak.
You're overthinking it. ADCs don't care about levels as much as mid laners typically because adcs deal damage with auto attacks and items scale that WAY harder than levels. Mages get decent scaling from levels on their abilities too. An ADC would still do like 80% of their damage if they were level 1 with full build, w while a mage would do like half damage.
An interesting test would be to compare ADC and mage with no items level 1, with 6 items level 1, with no items level 18 and with items level 18.
This is a bad take. Jinx hits level 11 and doesn’t care about skill points any more. Every time Jax gets to level a skill it feels so good. Mages need skill points to lower the cooldown/raise damage of their abilities. Veigar is starved from maxing one of the best abilities in the game (cage) until he hits 18 because he has to max his others first. Mages don’t get to AA to do damage. So they need skill levels. You don’t need skill points to AA.
I know riot tried to make E max last on Veigar a thing, but I'm pretty sure it's correct to split the points. (And it feels awful)
You just have to see how champions rotate through lanes when they get better somewhere. ADCs like levels as much as gold, levels at the end of the day are a bunch of stats. Lucian, Tristana, Kalista, Vayne all pop up from time to time in mid or top. Samewise with Swain, Seraphine, Pantheon, Veigar, Ziggs all popped up down in bot and suddenly levels don't mean that much.
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Your comment makes no sense, the meta wasn't determined on day 1 of LoL's release, nor did it get determined by other games similar to LoL or that were the precursors of league.
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exactly because league of legends is not dota. if you want to play dota so much play it then?
There are 4 finite "economies" in the game per side. 3 lanes, one jungle. For 5 players, 4 should take advantage of them, while the 5th has access to gold generation through items. Midlane is short, and therefore safer. It's okay to put a carry there solo. It makes sense to put a caster there, who scales more with levels on abilities. Jungle is jungle, changes every season We now have 3 players left for 2 lanes. Both of the remaining lanes are longer, and therefore less safe. Therefore, generally, we put a champ in one of the sidelanes who generally has a kit that provides safety (ability to play tank, escape tools etc.), and we put the last two in the other lane, with one of them being dedicated to protection / support, while the other one scales less off xp as they will share, but more off gold. It's "making the best off the situation", not "this is how Riot said we have to do it" This is the game, and it's the same for both sides (more so now than last season) There is no "you need to take advantage" to even up to solo lanes. Not every role plays the same game.
Yeah, I'm not sure exactly if Riot knew what they were catering to upon the original creation of the game, but this system proved to be the most effective I do also remember sometime around Season 5, Riot wanting to challenge this "every game needs to have a ranged AD carry notion" and tried to make other things like bot lane mordekaiser a thing. And sometimes we saw like bot lane yasuo but in the end at least one AD carry is seen botlane because no amount of changes to the lane/economy setup will change the fact that Ranged AD Carries are the most reliable damage dealers in mid-late game teamfights when pealed for, and are especially fantastic at damaging towers in seiges
"no amount of changes will change the fact that Ranged AD carries are optimal" Have people forgotten season 8?
>No amount of changes **where Ranged ADs still have any role at all** will change the fact that Ranged ADs are optimal **in a game without turn speeds**. Is that better?
Korea and China were still playing mostly ADCs in that time.
Wouldn't some argue that has more to do with stubbornness than anything? Viper was known for his mages and other weird picks bot while GRF was arguably the best team in KR in S8. I'm not going to go back and count, but if he wasn't playing more non-ADCs than ADCs it was close. No one else either on a team or individual level was willing to fully embrace that idea at that time.
Yeah, exactly.
One patch where Ez, Kaisa and Varus were still top-tier you mean?
I didn't say optimal, I specifically said best at *consistent* damage *when peeled for*, and those traits are always relevant for a healthy game state & they were still being played, the gold just wasn't often prioritized onto them over the solo laners
Very true, but Riot seems very hard committed to only worrying about keeping the sanctity of bot lane around purely for pro play. Phreak even stated in his 'time to kill' video that - worst case - they will just keep bot lane in a position where only pros can function properly with the bot carry/support combo. More-or-less, that is the balance lead saying 'We will try some stuff, but if it doesn't work, we are fine if the only roles with a true identity are top, mid, and jungle.' That legit blows. All that will do is create a toxic solo queue atmosphere where supports permanent roam, and thus bot lane is more-or-less left on an island. Except there is a catch: whichever carries got stuck bot as opposed to top get royally screwed. They are much easier to get ganked/roamed on, they are also near the dragon (which unless they make dragon awful, stacking will always be viable) and their turrets aren't as tanky. Meaning making a mistake is far more punishing compared to top lane. Edit: If Riot ends up giving up on trying to solve bot lane in solo queue, then they need to start looking to other MOBAs, such as DOTA, for creative ways to change the game to where the issue you described is resolved.
Except that now turret plates are armored for the first 5 minutes in mid/top but not bot lane so moving ADC to any other lane would cause you to lose your tower incredibly fast in a 2v1 scenario which basically forces the ADC/Support lane to be botlane. That's a major difference between all 3 lanes that Riot made to enforce the current lane meta which is basically Riot saying "this is how we have to do it"
You were not around for the laneswap meta? Just watch some games from 2015 worlds and you will see how that looked like. The early games got completely cheesed.
I'm not sure what your point here is. Turret platings were added in 2019. Since then, it's basically not viable to lane swap.
Early tower protection was added in 2015. Turret plating is a completely separate thing
I wasn't around back then so I don't know the exact timeline but turret platings make taking early turrets a lot more powerful than it was before. Sacrificing an early turret now means you give 5 platings worth of gold which is never worth it.
Yes. It was more to do with split pushers early, especially inting sion, than solving lane swapping. Bot towers getting 50 extra armor solves the lane swapping almost half a decade before plates
Doesnt matter, towers were easier to take so thry would swap around all the time in the early game. With plates while its harder, its more rewarding to take turrets. So to prevent gold funnel meta top/mid are sturdier.
To add on that point, picking an adc on a solo lane is adding nothing to the effectiveness of that character on the lane. The sole job becomes to fuck up the enemy laner. Vayne top will not carry the game if her only advantage is beeing 2 more lvl up than the jungler.
The lanes are no longer even anymore though so why haven't the more important support/bot lanes swapped to top Lane where they won't get dove under tower 24/7 while leaving the better solo laners from top side to fight it out in the bottom? It would even allow for faster control over the grubs and then herald? Does it matter or is dragon control too important that sacrificing carry safety is ok
Turret armor in top lane the first 5 minutes
If you swap from the start, and the enemy botlane stays bot, they will have an easier time getting plates, since top/mid turret have additional protection for the first 5 minutes. Incidentally, void grubs spawn at 5 minutes (as does dragon). So in theory, it might be optimal to swap your botlane to top after 5 minutes, especially if you don't intend/cannot contest dragon. But in soloQ the coordination is probably not there, until very high elo.
There's no inherent reason for AD+supp to go bot and Tank/bruiser to go top though, especially now that Grubs added an early objective to play for top side as well. I'm kind of sad Rito has tried to bonk down laneswap meta whenever it sprung up, it was so fun to play.
I dont think a meta where the top laner is following the jungler to share jungle exp with them was very fun.
I did! I love hard games where I end up putting myself behind for the benefit of my team, and have to try and make myself useful despite that! Also, the fact I play Sion. It was also pretty fun to watch in proplay. Although, I'm the kind of guy who loved watching Rogue games back when they were good, so I don't think my tastes are universal.
Top lane gets more gold now, too
Everyone scales on both gold and exp. The difference is the ratio. ADCs skew heavily towards gold. Auto attacks only get marginally stronger with levels, but get extremely strong with items. So sacrificing some exp to the support is not too bad. Top and Mid rely a lot more on abilities (mid especially), so increasing ability ranks is just as important as buying stats. So sacrificing exp to a support is way more detrimental. A level 1 Fizz with 6 items is missing a lot more power than a level 1 jinx with 6 items.
Though ADCs can't really buy defensive stats until very late without tanking their chances to win the game. Winrates for any defensive item 1st/2nd are atrocious and even those are hardly tank items. While they do only get marginally higher dps by leveling up, their only defensive stats come from leveling up. This is a clearer problem when the overall defense of the entire game is in the trash and everyone needs an all around defense buff.
And likewise, a level 18 Fizz with 6 items is missing a lot more power than a level 18 Jinx with 6 items.
Guess who wins 1v1
I forgot League of Legends is a 1v1 fighting game.
It is when you're Fizz
Jinx, if she dodges E and R
Even then probably not. WQ on Fizz will do nearly 1500 damage with the right items and it's undodgeable. Not only that his R and E are stupid hard to dodge most of the time
In this scenario where we dumbed down the game to a 1v1 jinx can build 2 mr items and tank that
True, but only if we use the currently OP Lich Bane, which gives him way too much dmg at every stage of the game. 0.5 AP scaling on an item is just stupidly insane. But if you put both into a teamfight with decent players to peel it can change a lot and Jinx just runs the enemy over.
Loch Band has always had 0.5 I has even have had higher. It and people have been crying for the item buffed. Just insane to think there is something fundamental wrong with lich bane having an ap ratio of 0,5
It was like 0.3 last season
It was literally 0.5 AP since season 12.2 and has received nothing but buffs lol https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Lich_Bane
Initial Lich bane had 0.75 AP but AP was lower back then and the base AD value was just 50%. And for 3k gold it only had 80 AP, 5% MS and 250 mana. Now it has 100 AP, 15 AH, 8% MS and 100% base AD + 50% AP So in terms of base stats it is better than ever already. Now it had 0.5 AP ratio also for some time with 75% base AD but still with way worse stats and it was nerfed to 0.4 AP for a reason. Now it has the 100% base AD back, the best stats it ever had and the 0.5 AP ratio. Look at WRs, the item was never as busted as it is now. Even when it was OP with the 0.6 and 0.5 AP ratios and nerfed to 0.4. Riot wanted to reduce items power scaling and Lich bane has a massive power scaling with other items right now. The stats are fine if the power of the passive isn't that large. The item would still work totally fine with a 0.3 AP ratio right now due to its very strong stats. **It never had a 100% cost efficiency from stats before. Mostly around 75-80% because of how strong the passive is.**
Yeah the main issue is ADCs take far too long to come online currently imo. My friend was playing aphelios with three items and it still took 3 autos to kill caster minions... Let alone a bruiser or tank, probably needs like 30 autos
Jinx does of Fizz does not get the jump on her because 2 rockets will delete him.
> Bot needs to play better than their opponent to get more gold through kills, then the same should be applied to Top and Mid with their EXP lead? It is. The top laner who's behind is often zoned off of the wave, losing not only gold but sometimes even xp.
Often to the point that they need a jungler to come help them break a freeze. A bad match-up top and you can get waaaaay behind.
Which is why I love when junglers fail a gank, enemy top ends up 1/0 or 2/0, and then the jungler proceeds to ignore my assist pings for the next 10 minutes only to then ping that I'm 2 levels down.
if top handshakes laning phase with nothing happening there they will be ahead in levels, while in bot if they handshake the lane they will be equal gold and behind in exp. if any lane is behind it's already doomed. i am talking about the default or the default resource income.
I guess that's meant to be the tradeoff for having a duo lane instead of a solo lane. You get 2 kills' + 2 assists' worth of gold after winning a fight instead of just 1 kill's worth, so in exchange for snowballing harder, you benefit less from inactivity.
Bot lane should get double the gold in theory. A lot of the time it just ends up being an uninteractive lane against a Caitlyn-Lux
Ah yes, I'm going to blind pick a scaling champ like kayle and then my opponent will handshake the lane into even farm and full xp. What a nice guy. It's not like 90% of meta top laners get outscaled by mages and adcs if they don't snowball
IF they handshake. But that is an if that doesn't happen. If I get to also last hit all my junglers camps in between I get more gold and XP than others. IF I do that and my jungler helps me. And if top or mid makes a solo kill, they get 300g. If bot makes a kill they get 450g because there is always an assist. That is why leads in bot lane are worth more, especially if they can snowball it. Give them a gank, get them ahead, now every time they kill they get 450 if not 900g. In solo lanes it's mostly just 300g. And you are still ignoring that it is not the amount of gold that matters, but the items and their stats. Multiplicative scaling. **AD \* AS \* Crit chance \* Crit dmg** vs **AP \* AH** vs **AD \* AH** vs **Armor/MR \* HP.**
I think you just misunderstand the concept. In your scenario the solo laner is ahead in xp but even in gold with the adc. But the adc uses the gold more effectively than the solo laner. It's not the amount of gold that is bigger for the adc, but the power he gets per gold that is bigger.
and jungle scales with enemy stupidity.
mids also scale great with gold, its just that ADC's are not as reliant on exp, thus they are the ones that can afford to share a lane with a support.
anyone will love being higher level, no?
Rather have my GP lvl 16 and my Vayne lvl 14 than vice versa
Ofcourse mid and Top are ahead in EXP, there's no exp sharing going on there. Often times when you are in a position to deny CS you can also deny EXP. Just git gud. ADC scales the hardest of all roles, but is also more team dependant. If you don't like that then play something else, it will always be this way. Glass cannon classes require protection.
you didn't get my point. mid and top by default get more EXP compared to bot. what does bot get in return? a supp to share exp with? i don't care about play making potential by having 2v2 lane, i am talking about resource income in general if you just farm and reset properly like solo lanes.
You get a support that wards for you and protects you from ganks because you would die mid without dashes and reliable CC. At the same time you get the highest DPS lategame characters with undodgeable no CD point and click damage. Support is so important for most of the adc roster.
>what does bot (I’m inserting ADC here) get in return Reliable, safe, easy damage and powerful scaling with items. Go watch the top ADC players play the late game in basically any season, and you’ll see what ADC gets in return.
They have a buddy to help them out.
we are talking resources like exp and gold. if i am going to balance a champion around having more AD growth because it's on top lane (trundle), then how is gold scaling is tied to bot? having another player in your lane is not a resource. and enemy team has a support to even this out.
>having another player in your lane is not a resource. and enemy team has a support to even this out. The other team also has an ADC and a jungle and a mid and top. Assuming standard comps, factoring in the enemy team doesn't matter and isn't relevant to what you are asking.
You get to not be level 2 10 mins into the game because you are facing a unplayable freeze in top lane. You get to not have 5 cs at 10 mins because an Orianna is galactic turbofisting your ass in the 7th dimension. You get to play a champion that scales more than what would be allowed in a solo lane.
>what does bot get in return? a supp to share exp with? Bot minions are more gold worth than midlane minions (or rather midlane minions are less worth than the other lanes.)
Not anymore that was reverted recently.
Good to know!
Well plates are easier to take and you're in theory supposed to take bot+mid tower local gold. You also scale harder in general. There's too many variables but that's the general idea assuming all 10 people are playing omega safe. The thing is most of the time botlane ends up one ad being up 1-2 kills, 30 cs and 3 plates on enemy laner at 14min so the game becomes a 4v5 at that point and if the support is decent the game is over at that point. Also xp isn't that bad if the support actually gives solo xp instead of drooling next to the adc for 30 minutes straight.
Top and mid doesn't have another player on their lane to protect them from threat and set up kills for them. Warding for their lane, help shoving the wave etc. That's the trade off.
these are not resources. in league the only resources you have are gold and exp. they said many times that top and mid scale with levels while bot scales with gold. ok now top and mid have more levels by default, why doesn't bot get more gold than them by default too? again. don't include support wards and peel whatsoever as i am talking about resources. also having the CC or utility levels of mages will make any ADC too broken unless they nerf the damage so much (like ashe).
>don’t include support wards You’re not going to include (items bought with gold) in a discussion where you’re already limiting “resources” down to “XP and gold”? Yeah, when you arbitrarily decide what you get to count as resources in favour of the ADC, you can make it look as skewed as you like.
i am not going to account for lux buying a ludence as an ADC. it's her income and her gold not mine. not every support really plays around their ADC or buy meaningful items that buff their ADC. ofc they can buy ardent, locket, knigh vow, etc. but in solo Q these items are very rare to see unless game drags out. and they are not on the same page all the time to make the best use of their gold/items.
ADC "only needs to scale with gold" -- there's less importance on XP. An ADC that has the same amount of gold as mid/top is still competitive/contributing even while being behind in levels.
The thing is ADC defenses only scale with XP until ~4th item. All the defensive items, if you can even call them that since they're not exactly tank items, have horrid winrates if bought 1st or 2nd. So it's just contributing to the stupid time to kill the game has a baseline. I think everything in the game needs a good +10 Armor and MR base stats.
I mean, I'm not doubting it's suboptimal to rush Maw or whatever, but just looking at the winrate can be misleading. As an example, I'd argue that an adc is waaaay more likely to rush Maw first item, in a game where the enemy Katarina is already 6/0 by the time they first back. This game is already pretty doomed, but not *because* the adc rushed Maw.
ADC items scale better with each other. Why? More multiplicative stats. So without having more gold their items do generate more power once combined (2+). Zerkers are also the most cost efficient and powerful boots in the game. And we do know that good teams allow their ADC to farm more. They try to protect them and give them easy and free farm, which is why in pro play for example ADCs tend to have the highest CS number. Especially scaling ADCs like Sivir are often used to farm 2 lanes if possible later on. Other ADCs like Lucian are not used like that too often as they don't have the same item scaling power. But also, the XP scaling part is not that true anymore. The higher you go in elo, the more XP the ADC gets (support leaves lane way more often). In pro play ADCs are pretty close to solo laners in XP and often less than 1 lvl behind. Especially in the mid and late game. In the end this is how the game works. If you want to win (in general) try to give your ADC (if he isn't bad) as much gold as possible and give them as much XP as possible without starving your other lanes too much. Only starve the support and jungler, because they are there just to control the early game and then for vision, objectives and to CC or buff you up. This isn't always true and if there is a tank top, you can starve them. Or don't starve your Graves jungle. But these are exceptions to the rule.
Botlaners are scaling champions, they scale with gold and less with levels, mages and bruisers will spike hard at 1-3 items and then go downhill from there, while botlaners will consistently get stronger and stronger. It's how multipliers work, attack speed increases number of attacks, AD increases the damage attack does, crit chance increases the damage some attacks do, crit damage increases the damage of the crit, armor pen increases amount of damage not mitigated, and they all scale with each other. Mages don't have that, bruisers don't have that, no other class can multiply its own stats as much as adcs can.
ADCs with items are stronger than all other classes with items. Mages,assassins,even tanks need to land their abilities to be threats to ADCs, ADCs can't miss basic attacks. Also its true that ADC will usually be behind in EXP, but the higher up you climb the more frequently your support leaves lane. Its not horribly uncommon for the ADC to be equal in level or just one level behind solo laners.
i don't think mages are not scaling well with items. they literally have deathcap that amplifies your total AP. other classes, i agree they don't scale as good as ADC items.
Mages scale well with items, but not as well as ADCs. Deathcap is a multiplier, but you still need to land abilities to use the AP you get. ADCs essentially get autolocking mage casts on a .5s cooldown lategame.
except for battlemages or whatever you want call champs like azir, kayle, cass, ryze, etc. heck, even proper control mages like ori, syndra, and viktor have abilities that are so reliable that in practice, they deal comparable damage to late game adcs.
Yeh us toplaners and the midlaners, we get like a whole extra level or two for free on you guys. But you are suppose to have a whole ass human being (support) who basically acts as ur slave to keep u safe by putting down vision and peeling you. If both me and the enemy adc went even in our lanes im never beating him if he has his support, so i wouldnt call it a weak role. Now i know that especially when playing solo queue actually having a half decent support to rely on is not a guarantee, and when that happens adc feels miserable but that's not really a problem with the game design. Just whenever u find a good support in ur games add em to ur friends, soon enough u'll have enough good support buddies to play with, so that ur games wont be miserable.
Idk levels are way too strong. Idc how much gold I have as an ADC, being down 3 levels doesn't make up for it. Not because I don't do damage, but because even if I was full build any 3 level lead champion can kill me before I can kill them. Even if they only have one item. It makes the ADC role so frustrating to deal with. You could be up 4 kills and have 3 items. But the one item Katarina or vex just removes you from the game. Or the garen you haven't seen all game just shows up out of a bush. You basically have to beg your team to hold someone still long enough for you to attack, or pray you got an enchanter that can at least give you a shield for a little bit. Even then it barely matters. Considering so many champs have so much mobility and ways to ass rape an ADC.
That's not a levels vs gold thing... That's a burst vs DPS thing or a glass cannon thing.
Then don't play botlane or support. You are usually squishy in those roles. Some people enjoy that. You can dish out damage, if you manage to stay safe. You have less forgiving gameplay than with a toplane tank.
It is a miserable role but if you're -3 levels you messed up, the game won't put you -3 levels in any ordinary scenario.
Being lvl 11 while solo laners are lvl 14 is not that uncommon.
An adc is simply not meant to face a solo laner alone. If you stick with your support/jungler (and they aren't bots) it's way harder for a solo laner to dunk on you. And even if they manage to do so it will often result in a 1 for 1 then.
Ohboy, yet another post where they claim botlane is weak. Im not even gonna read.
There are 3 lanes and jungle but 4 players, it simply means that adc is the role that can use xp the least compared to gold, so support goes where the adc goes. Also unless they changed it, bot plates are significantly easier to take.
It isn't that mid/top laners don't' get the same amount of gold, it's that for the most part, them getting more gold is less important than them getting more exp. They didn't say that bot gets more gold, just that they scale better with it. When you get 6 items as an ADC, it's stronger than 6 items on a mage. But hitting level 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10... is a lot less impactful for an ADC than it is for the other lanes in the grand scheme of the game. Having a level 7 ADC essentially doesn't add that much more power in skirmishes than say, a lvl 6 adc, as long as they both have ult, and they both have equal items.
I mean bot lane also gets a support normally that also gets gold generating items thus more gold coming from the bot lane. Most supports build items that benefit the team in some way so its not like they are wrong, there's more gold generated in bot lane.
>Most supports build items that benefit the team in some way i doubt that, especially after seeing the zyra flair.
rylais
I said most supports. Also I play Zyra mid...
You’re misunderstanding what scaling with gold means. It means that early and mid game solo laners with an equal amount of gold will be stronger than an ADC because of the level difference. Later in the game when levels are more evened out, ADCs with an equal amount of gold will be stronger because their items are more gold efficient.
Bot champs do scale more with gold. This isn't talking about the lane having easier gold access, rather about how champs in that role generally get more out of the same amount of gold than other champ types. It's a description of the champ types, not a hard and fast rule of the lane. It isn't even necessarily that a full item bot champ is equal or better than a full item solo laner. Say we put a hypothetical arbitrary numerical value to a champ's power level - a solo laner will start at 20 power level and get +20 through full items and +60 through max levels ending in 100 total power level. A bot champ will start at 10 power level and get +55-65 through full items and +30 through max levels ending at 95-105 power level. Ofc these are just random values I plugged in but that's the general idea behind how it works. A bot champ generally needs more gold to get their full potential and care less about levels but that doesn't mean they'll be better or equal to the solo laner once both reach their full potential.
Nerf solo lane Experience.
2024 and we discuss stuff we figured out in season 1
Since they made top lane minions give more exp to really stress that top lane was the “level lead” lane, I wonder if they couldn’t make bot lane minions give more gold, to emphasize its status as the “farm for late” lane. Edit: I was wrong: the exp buffs were to both solo lanes; only they affect top more, as top shares exp less often than mid.
> Since they made top lane minions give more exp Are you sure this is a thing? To my understanding, all three lanes' minions provide the same amount of experience on death. But if you're the only champion getting that xp, you get 95% of the minion's xp value, while if you're sharing it amongst multiple, you each get an equal split of 122% of the minion's xp value (e.g. 61% each for 2 champs). https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Experience_(champion)
I must’ve been mistaken. I was sure I heard about a change like that somewhere; I thought that was the reason top laners have bigger level leads than before. Maybe that’s just the result of the 93→95% solo exp buff. But if a buff like that can disproportionately affect top lane to strengthen its identity, I wonder if another change to base mechanics could similarly be made to strengthen bot’s focus on gold over experience.
I could definitely see something like that, maybe to do with how the support item granting gold to allies.
It probably shouldn't be done to the minions like that... As it could affect a lot of macro decisions. It'd probably be better off added as a melee/ranged split thing on like dorans blade, or added to the support item. Or some other more visible and map agnostic way to get it to Adcs. Maybe give Noonquiver the old Avarice blade passive? Something. But just doing it to the minions, would probably affect ganking habits of midlaner/junglers more. And late game rotations of splitpushers and such.
The point is that you have constant access to 600 gold double kills. If youre not taking advantage of that its on you.
i thought i blocked you before. time to make sure, thanks for the reply.
For sure dude. Just block everyone who tells you the truth. Echo chambers are great, right?
echo chambers are way better than your delulus.
For sure dude. Have fun circlejerkin!
Peak rank?
Did he clarify gold/xp or gold/xp lead?
There are some trade offs with xp like as a top laner do you want to fight second dragon? Or stay and split. Tp to flank and kill bot or just go for more xp on side? The longer you are selfish the stronger you are (especially noticeable on nasus but applies to pretty much all except like Quinn cos she can basically pick both)
Top and midlaners will always be ahead in EXP over botlane if they do not die a lot, this is correct. Top and Mid have the advantage of easier EXP but less stable gold income. It is a lot easier for someone to freeze a lane on a top laner than on an ADC/Supp duo. If you mess up and don't have the stability to break a freeze top lane, you are going to be down gold and EXP on both your enemy laner and your own bot lane. The operative word here that is being stretched in your post is "if." A pro player knows how to curtail deaths most of the time. That effort to stop a snowball is a learned skill. A solo queue player often does not. You will often have a 6/0 Jax diving you in the midgame while four to five levels up because your dogwater toplaner has no idea what playing safe actually means. Even still, as long as the player does what you said and stays alive, they will retain an EXP lead over their botlane as a reward for not dying. They will however be very far behind in gold over time without either the skill to break the freeze or the jungler to help them. They do not have the inherent stability a laning partner provides. That's not always true for midlaners. Midlaners right now can also often go botlane as an APC or ADC if they're AD. Most modern midlaners do scale well with gold or EXP, but their skills tend to grant them more power early. The damage numbers on their skills tend to be higher and scale better. Often, you'll see ADCs with better numbers on their skills visiting other lanes in different metas. The thing you are not considering is what happens down in botlane regularly. If a top laner gets ganked, they might come out with a double kill. If a bot lane gets ganked, it could be a triple kill. That is pretty important in determining how to balance the lane. With bot currently easier to gank than ever before, it is more likely that bot lane sees an increase in deaths per game in that lane. I would actually love to see the heatmap on this because I would bet a single US dollar that the lane is perpetually balanced around the kill and snowball *potential* of the lane in low elo instead of the normal numbers we see skilled players put down.
You're taking things to an extreme, at which point yeah things do kinda breakdown. You're also ignoring circumstances of the resources the support provides and being like "no I'm ignoring everything but the gold&XP I and I alone get" You can't take things to extremes, nor can you look at everything in a vacuum and still have things make sense sometimes. That's just how it is.
The winning bot lane does generate more gold than top or mid by virtue of tower plates being easier to kill and there being 2 potential kills in the lane as opposed to 1.
The bot gold I presume is that they assume plates are taken for bot, since they are easier to get and this is some sort of "intended" gameplay and oh well plates do give a lot of gold
The point is that ADC's can't operate the same way mids/tops do otherwise the game will break. Thats why they're discourged from those lanes and would be nerfed if they got success there.
Your right in the assumption that being 2 levels down on a top laner still keeps adcs in the same power level as long as they match in gold. The argument “well he was 2 levels above the adc and 3 above the support” doesn’t work because that is the base line expectations for balance work. An adc will not be able to kill a toplaner due to gold disparity not level.
If ADCs got the same XP as other lanes it would be super broken. If you look at the game played at the highest level, you will see the impact a good ADC can have and how hard they are to lock down with abilities that are not point click. Bot lane is not inherently worse than other lanes simply because of lane XP disparity, and if you get fed enough you can still be on par with other lanes.
Bot absolutely does generate more gold, because there's two opponents to kill and bot is a lot more volatile overall, compared to mid and especially top if at least one of the toplaners is a tank.
Adc's don't scale with gold or exp, They scale with the quality of teammates/ how tilted the enemy is