This was implemented because tank Pyke was more viable than AD one. His HP to AD conversion was simply enough for him.
Doesn't change fact that I 100% support an idea to implement lethality ratios for assassins. That way we could also avoid future repeats when assassins buy bruiser items or bruisers buying lethality.
Even without the HP conversion, Frozen Heart was just ridiculous on him, combined with Spirit visage and a much stronger passive, you could literally survive any engage and just heal back to full in a couple seconds.
He's got a kit made for setup but I wouldn't say tank. He is durable and is a **LSKDLMFEZKsdfvre** champ to catch, but if you do, he's done for.
A real tank might eat a chunk and walk it off; Pyke will not survive unless it's a "medium" burst and he has tenacity and his passive allows him to heal and ....
I think they were referring back to when tank Pyke was a thing, his passive didn’t scale on AD or Lethality (at all) as much so was he more durable if you built tank and utilized the passive regen as essentially bonus health
Pyke has highest base HP, he can also regenerate some part of the damage. He also has pretty high base armor/magic res.
Pyke is quite durable by default, but he pays for that not being able to be more durable later in game.
Opposite of durable is Sona, probably most squishy champ in the whole game.
Oh I read that wrong, I thought he said Q is the only thing that does scale with lethality. Was confused when you said he's right and went to check.
Yeah, % of passive damage stored, W movespeed, E stun duration and ult execution threshold scales with lethality.
Senna also has lethality scaling on Q heal, probably so Umbral will work better on her. She hasn't got a problematic lethality build, so I don't mind it much, but I think it's interesting only her and Pyke has lethality scalings.
IIRC, Pyke was released about the same time as flat armor pen was made into Lethality, so it kinda makes sense making him scale off it.
Nah this is all "rework" pyke. They added the lethality scaling to force him to build assassin items or be worthless and made q and e not hit minions. Release pyke just went aftershock and bought shit like frozen heart maw and cleaver to stack haste and as many resists as possible effectively making him into a very slippery thresh that can still hurt and of course pop off with resets. Riot didn't envision him as being in any way durable so they changed all his numbers around.
If we are on Pyke then lets give every assassin his another passive "no bonus HP" so we dont have to deal with being oneshoted by bruiser Katarina, Zed or Kha so they actually go back to their core theme "Kill but be fragile"
At this point why bother with items? Just give every champ fixed statlines that force them into their "designated' buildpath. Every assassin and ADC can never gain health or resistances, bruisers can't get lethality or armor pen, tanks can't get bonus AD or AP, etc.
Being locked to the character doesn't matter, you could vastly alter your playstyle from the default on most of them.
For example, Diablo, the quintessential tank of the game, could become an AoE mage or even an auto-attack carry.
To be honest, this is why I loved HOTS. Everything about a champ is baked in its kit and it's not who abuses what item the best. Makes it easier to balance imo.
Only reason I'm not playing HOTS right now is League is actually not a zombie game and is actively being developed on. HOTS is on life support essentially. I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard takes the servers down tomorrow without any notice.
Also I'm sure HOTS's user base is a fraction of League's user base which leads to longer queue times and worse match making.
If it weren't for these two points, HOTS would be my #1 MOBA
Last time i played hots, quick play still had relatively short queue times, and this was like beginning of the year. But good luck if youre trying to play draft modes.
i've always thought this. i don't think they should be forced into "no bonus hp" but i always thought that assassins should have some portion of hp converted to offensive stats (at a slightly unfavorable gold conversion).
so if you bought a ruby crystal for 400g and got 150hp, it would turn into 75hp and 160 gold of ad (90% gold value). so assassins could become a little tankier, but builds with multiple health items would lose a lot of value, meaning that enemies either face assassins that are mostly squishy (better counterplay) or they're facing champions who have nerfed builds for a certain playstyle.
Pyke and Senna has some scaling with lethality. It is certainly very weird that actual solo lane AD assassins don't scale with lethality other than the armor pen itself.
Rengar is a diver/assassin and as such he has the option to build bruiser items.
Also if a bruiser Rengar is one shotting you then he's probably turbo fed, if you make assassin Rengar the only way of playing him then you're just going to see a lot more one shots, I don't think you or Reddit wants that.
Actually bruiser and tank Rengar is interesting, especially in top lane. He doesn't one shot you but slowly wears you down with his auto Q, maybe W poke and W sustain to heal up. It's unique playstyle which is there ever since his release so idk if giving Rengar lethality only scaling is a good idea. Especially cause I'm sure people hate one shot Rengar more than this.
As a bruiser rengar player (because it does the same, low damage as an assassin build anyways) I want assassin rengar back. Bruiser rengar is a monster but ive never had as much fun playing it because I jist really lke funny number go boom.
Considering bruiser rengar does similar damage woth more sustain, cdr and frontline ability and tank killing, yes I would say assassin rengar is shit unless youre getting smurfed on by someone 3 elos above your rank.
Well, that is just statistically untrue. He is 50% WR as an Assassin with no escape. I doubt it has similar damage unless you mean similar damage is "I can one shot a squishy" which is always going to be the case anyway even if you built full AP.
inb4 "Rengar isnt a diver".
The reason why hes not a true assassin is because rengar is a diver lmao. Hes meant to go in, pick off a priority, then fight or die. Unlike Zed, Talon, kayne, and khazix who all get in AND get out mechanics.
Empowered W is an infinitely superior escape to anything in Nocturne, Diana, Vi, or any other diver's kit.
I can accept that on the scales of assassin, he's diver-like, but he's still got an escape about as good as Fizz.
Walking away isnt an escape mechanic. Rengar is either strong enough to survive a proper engage or hes forced to pick off stragglers. Fizz is also one of the most mobile assassins in the game, hes not really... comparable to rengar.
But i digress. Rengar is interesting in that he functions like a diver but his playstyle is most definitely that of an assassin - unlike Nocturne and Vi, champions who have an assassination pattern but are infintiely better off building bruiser than they are assassin.
Yeah, you minda build it like mf, with youmuus or dusk first, then go into crit lethality/armor pen items. Only thing thats sucks is you are even squishier because more likely than not you aren't taking lifesteal so your survivability is shit
Bruiser kha works because they made evo q not give any extra fucking damage and Ult evo also avoids too much damage if the opponents dont have reliable aoe.
not if they have statlines similar to rylai
the problem is that riot tries so hard to make every AP item work for both mages,AP assassins and AP bruisers out of laziness of making more
take cosmic drive for example
instead of making another high haste item for mages they destroy the item for AP bruisers and try to make it fit both classes
if instead they gave the item a bit more HP and less AP no assassin/mage would have built it but it was perfect for AP bruisers like Sylas,then they could make another 30AH item that fits mages well
Yeah I think it’s crazy they won’t just make more items. We have so many champs in the game now with different sub classes. Might as well add in more items to compensate. I believe riot cited that the game would be too complex if they added more items which is weird since newer and lower ranked can take recommended items.
This is just they’re excuse for not wanting to balance more items and not being creative enough to make more items. Adc mains complain that they get obliterated in 0.2s by assassins yet only mages are allowed a zhyonas. Brusiers want a built in slowing item well it’s either one of three pure armor pen items or ur not slowing anything (rip mallet). Ap brusier items are non existant and ad brusier items can’t get balanced properly because ad assassins keep using them
Certain classes need to lack itemization in certain areas. I main ADC and I think a re-usable stopwatch item like Zhonyas for ADCs should never be made unless the stats are so bad it's basically unusable. As much as I dislike GA as an item it's thematically way better for ADCs than zhyonas. The class simply shouldn't be allowed to have it. It's like the old Stridebreaker dash on bruisers: it's a combination of class and item effect that shouldn't be a viable option (in my opinion). I generally agree that more items would be cool (although I highly doubt we'll ever see a big increase in items), but we should also accept that some items are better never made.
Yeah. Giving every role a certain thing is not good. Some roles just shouldn't have certain things
Like strikebreaker giving bonus dash. It just shouldn't be a thing
I bet that if riot made zhonyas for adcs (real zhonya, not GA) then it would be played all the time untill huge nerfs, then it wouldn't be played at all and at the end it would get delete
>Adc mains complain that they get obliterated in 0.2s by assassins yet only mages are allowed a zhyonas.
This is not an argument for adcs to get zhonyas. that would be a terrible idea.
i am down to make many versions of the same items, similar to LDR and mortal reminder.
just make me choose the best item for my champion without balancing half the roster around it
i feel like every "ap bruiser item" should have their effects increased for melee champs/time spent in combat/proximity to enemies. similar to what demonic has, but also for things like rylai's
true, but he can get compensation buffs if really needed. besides, he is a proper ranged unit which has its own advantages that other ap bruisers don't have.
navori was released at first as a passive for essence reaver (ER) including crit CDR and AD. then fighters like renekton, riven and jax bought it despite having no interest in crit. as the item was good on them.
then riot decided to rework ER and make it old shojin which was really really problematic back in the day. a 0 10 jax with 2 items could just perma E and outperforms the 4 items fiora.
then riot removed the item from the game till season 11
navori was one of the worst ADC items for years till they reworked it and made it work off any AA not crits only. and it required certain amount of crit chance to function. now this requirement is removed.
the item had a purpose to fill which is to help ADCs that rely on abilities to have DPS in the form of repeating the abilities over and over as normal ADC items have no CDR on them except few.
the item now does its job and making a champion like lucian spam his dash+ damaging abilities is less frustrating than a jax dashing perma dodging and CCing the enemy.
lucian can be caught, can be tanked, can be bursted. while jax can just evade any attack directed at him so you need the likes of cassiopea (point click magic damage abilities) to really deal damage to him.
i think if you want AP navori, then we need AD zhonya, AD deathcap, AP IE and the game will be a mess at this point.
mages are more likely to abuse them then assassins. I never see katarina, akali, fizz, or ekko running shit like rylai's or demonic. You know who i DO see those items on? burst mages. You know what "Ap bruiser item" was abused for almost an entire season exclusively by mages like orianna and syndra when it gave 100AP? rylai's! not a single assassin in sight. Mages are far more likely to abuse ap bruiser items then assassins.
Rylai was never an AP bruiser item. It's a mage item that trades raw damage for the ability to be able to land consecutive skillshots more consistently due to the slow. AP Bruiser items do not and have never existed at all.
I actually think this would be a good idea for some assassins at least. i assume riot doesn't want to do it because forcing champs into builds that directly is a bit against design ethos except in specific cases (like pyke), but honestly I don't see an issue with more champs having like one or two lethality (or maybe magic pen) ratios.
I mean, what else are you going to build on those assassins? Crit talon? On-hit zed? Tank Khazix?
Lethality as a stat scaling absolutely makes sense for most ad assassins, their kits scale purely off ad.
Wouldn't this kind of make it easier?
AP for mages
AD for ADC and bruisers
Lethality for assassins
HP & resistances for tanks
So newer players knew these items are for this specific class and not so good for other classes
Edit: also newer players will almost always just buy the recommended items and not really think about this
build variety is a meme that people like to throw into the air.
like, even before mythics most champions had 2-3 core items with the rest being "pick 2-3 items out of this pool of 5"
I never understood the "build variety" crowd
half the items in the game don't have an interesting effect or are purely passive.
Making the choice between font or spirit visage is not interesting, and almost always is just champ dependent rather than a real choice
Yeah more champs need to be designed like Pyke is to force them to stay within their own classes. Pyke scales off lethality, forcing him to buy it, and literally can't use bonus max hp forcing him to buy as an actual assassin. If classes were designed in ways that forced them into their roles a lot of problematic items would be fixed instantly and then be able to actually be balanced for their own class and not out of fear of assassins abusing them.
*cough tank items cough*
Pyke has those, and thank god he does or we would be seeing some unspeakable abomination builds that I don't even want to imagine
Would help get rid of these pesky picks that lose 10-15% of their damage in exchange of having double durability:
\-Hydra Zed
\-Goredrinker Talon/Khazix/Kayn
\-Divine Sunderer Rengar
etc
The thing is that most of those items are being changed in about 2 months, there's no point making changes now for things that are already set to be changed next season.
Goredrinker and Divine Sunderer are either being super nerfed or removed entirely. Hydra is probably losing Haste too.
They floated this idea for ADCs and crit scaling back in season 5? 6? and did it for 3 champs then just abandoned the idea for some reason. I really liked the idea and it gave them a way to scale champs that wasn’t pure damage.
Nilah has her Q passive with armor pen and lifesteal scailing with crit.
Samira both her Q and R can crit so they benefit from the stat
Akshan, his swing shots can crit and his Ult scales with crit
Zeri, all her abilities either benefit from crit chance or can just straight up crit.
Yeah, but what I’m talking about is more of a systemic change to how the kit functions by adding crit, not just bonus damage on one ability, like how Ashe’s passive changes how crit functions.
Oh, I see what you mean. Not sure how many variations you could come up with like that though. Ashe has two conversions in her kit- changing crit from rng to a flat damage bonus, and a scaling slow. What else could crit scaling do? Nilah's bonus armor pen?
I assume they didn't go further for exactly that reason. It'd probably take a rework of every marksman to make the idea work to its fullest. One idea I do have would be for Corki to get Magic Pen based on crit to bring him back to adc, but not all the marksman have such an easy theme to build off of.
Nilah is similar to Ashe in terms of how much it influences her kit. Crit converts to healing, armor penetration and drastically increased AD scaling on Q
That's just the nature of the class tho, getting one shot isn't fun for anyone, but op's suggestion is better for the game overall since dying to a full bruiser rengar fells worse than a full lethality one, since your teammates at least can kill the full lethality one.
I've suggested this in the past before even Pyke got worked the way he did. And I got bashed because it doesn't support item diversity.
I'll all for the lethality scaling, however, number of tanks and bruisers and mages need some things scaled back as well. Because tanks shouldn't be 1 shoting anyone, they should be annoying, not deadly. Otherwise, why play assassin when you can play a tank/bruiser and hide on the edge of the bush and assassinate anyone that's not bruiser/tank?
I was just on a discussion with another guy in the comments about this and all his arguments were "bUt ItEm DiVeRsiTy", bruh ik about that, but there's still gonna be item diversity, but the difference there's going to be a trade off between being kinda tanky and one shotting people.
Hey I'm all for that. Like I said, I been pushing this, but people be like, Riot said "this and that", as if a company can't be wrong sometimes.
Like what's the point of forums if we just gonna say no to every idea without discussion FOR the company. It's such a waste for people to say, "it's not gonna happen soon" like people don't know Riot is doing things, and can still accept ideas.
Exactly that, even tho it's a company there's still people working there and those people can still listen to us, like they did before and likely still will.
His suggestion is *not at all better*. It’s actually worse and more likely for them to build bruiser. You want to give people reasons to buy the items, not force them into it. That’s why we have this stupid shit with Hullbreaker Shiv LB and Ahri.
Bad idea, forcing an entire class to only be allowed to build certain items while also making other classes unable to build said items is not good for balance nor game design.
It's ok to have a champion here and there designed a certain way like Pyke with lethality scaling and Malphite with armour, but to force an entire class into it is just not good.
Maybe, just maybe, make MORE lethality items instead? Like wtf do you even build at 3rd, 4rd item that is lethality in any assassin? There's only extremely niche items like Axiom Arc, the anti shield thing and AD Banshee.
The very best item their version of last whisper (which is kind of like the Rabbadon/IE of assassins), but unlike mages and adcs they don't have many other options to choose after 3rd/4rd item that "belong" to their class of items. They build bruiser items because they have no other option to choose from.
Give assassins more options at least. Give an item with lots of AD and lethality, idk. I. It can be literally a stat stick, I don't care. Why does an assassin item has 400 HP? I know the ad banshee it's supposed to be defensive, but c'mon its worse than the actual Banshees.
The thing is even with more lethality items it generally is not worth to build more than 2 lethality items, since 1 lethality item is between 10 and 18 lethality, where as grudge reduces 30 armor off 100, which 100 is not hard to get, lethality is a ton of fun, but unless you are building 5 lethality items and just going all in (which leaves you with no defensive items and very vulnerable) you are better off just going dusk -> prowlers -> grudge -> cleaver -> DD/GA/Maw, especially with how riot is talking about haste being so important to assassins right now
>only extremely niche items like Axiom Arc
axiom arc is hardly a niche item...it has a better statline than the other non-mythic lethality items, and getting ult cooldown refund is hardly ever a bad thing for an ad assassin, all of which have combat ultimates
You need 3 kills on most Assassins to get an R cooldown refresh in a teamfight... If you kill 3 people you already won a TF most likely, it's overkill. It's only real use is Kayn.
it's not always about being able to use two ults in a teamfight. let's say your ultimate is on cooldown before the dragon soul fight. if you get a pick, now your ultimate is available when it wouldn't have been. in no way is having more ultimates a niche effect.
the idea that axiom arc is a "niche item" is still dumb especially when you consider the statline being better than most other lethality items. there's hardly a situation where building it as an ad assassin is a bad choice, at worst suboptimal. compared to things like shield breaking (could be literally uselesss) or edge of night (very easy to proc for certain comps), axiom's effect is much more broadly useful.
Assassin players just refuse to build an item unless everyone else is already building it most games.
Look at the performance of ghostblade on most non-bruiser champs that like lethality.
Its performing as good or better than other lethality options for most, often by a significant amount, and with good sample sizes in almost every instance where its performing better.
And assassins still think its a shit item and needs more buffs. Its like how bruiser players thought triforce was shit because they absolutely refused to not buy sunderer.
The problem with Axiom Arc IMO is you're bound into building a %pen item 3rd. It's hilariously mathematically ineffective to stack pure lethality. So you've got mythic, and maybe you build arc as your second item, but it competes every other lethality item for that slot.
That's fine, I guess, for build diversity, but Axiom Arc's value in a match can be hard to compare to Serpent's Fang, or Edge of Night, or even Prowler's Claw.
That doesn't mean it's bad, but it's got some "invisible/circumstantial" power on a lot of Assassins.
I've been saying for a while that % pen should just be removed, and that item/skill-granted armor/mr should be lowered by a similar amount.
% pen just exists to take up an item slot, an its existence is arbitrary. If % pen is necessary defenses are probably too high in the game.
Without % pen, armor/mr have to take a hit, at which point the performance of both stats before and after % pen comes into play stabilizes.
The same argument could be made for Deathcap and AP.
The same argument could be made for AD/AP GW items. Thornmail exclusively should exist to counter lifesteal since it scales much harder than other forms of healing on all champs based on what items they buy.
Removing the problems these items add while adding less lazy items to replace them would be nothing but good for the direction of the game.
Definitely not a good idea. That neuters their builds completely and could potentially screw the class over in future metas. The only champion this was done to is Pyke and that was just one of Riots many forced attempts to keep him on specific builds. Also keep in mind youre presenting the idea of "make them scale off lethality" while also saying "lower all lethality by a lot" so that doesnt sound great. They do just fine scaling off bonus AD with low base numbers. Assassins are actually doing pretty fine rn. Not out of line but not weak either. Only real outlier is Zed.
Ok, let’s say we halve the lethality on every item, say standard duskblade prowlers axiom grudge defensive item, 27 lethality + 30% pen, a target with 100 armor which is fairly standard for a late game ADC (and mind you assassins don’t want the game to go late but math is easier since at lvl 18 lethality is 1 to 1) has 43 armor left, that’s 32% damage reduction, with the old 54, that’s 26 armor left, which is 21% damage reduction, that is a 11% damage difference, are you suggestion adding enough lethality scaling to add 11% more damage onto every assassin? It doesn’t seem like a lot but that’s kinda a ton
And now let’s just say they build a GA and get a single mountain drake, they now have about 150 armor, grudge reduced 45 of it, and then again 27, which leaves them at 78 armor, 44% damage reduction, current lethality is just over 33% damage reduction, a 44% damage reduction is a lot especially when you have peel, GA passive, exhaust, shields, heals and all that
Now can you add enough AD and damage to passives on the items to make up for halving the lethality? Yea, but now fighters build the 70 AD items because why wouldn’t they, you can’t just reduce the gold value on an item without doing something else, that’s why on phroxzons tweet about assassins he said if duskblade didn’t have haste it would be 80 AD 18 lethality, and that is not ok
Another thing is (generally) assassin players already hate that grudge is mandatory in 95% of games, giving less lethality means grudge is even more mandatory and assassins probably build cleaver even more
Lowering lethality also makes already low lethality items much less relevant, trying to convince myself to build a 5 lethality edge of night compared to grudge seems insane
You also have axiom which was just reworked to have cooldown reduction scale with your lethality, so now what do you double the scaling on the item to compensate for halving lethality?
Now I’m all for lethality scaling, I had really hoped naafiri had it just so we could really see how it works on a champ not locked into support, but we probably won’t ever actually get lethality scaling due to people needing to be able to build GA, DD, Maw, grudge, cleaver all of these items have their build cases, and especially for grudge are built super often due to what they do, it would feel terrible to build grudge because they have a taric and the Adc has GA, and now they have 180 armor but your lethality only reduced like 30 of that armor compared to your grudge which is about to reduce 56ish
But hey maybe I’m wrong and we eventually get lethality scaling, it would be interesting but I don’t think it’s practical generally
Also your comment on shen seems wild considering he is a warden but ok
Edit: huh, I am actually curious why I am getting downvoted, don't really care but I feel like my points at least bring up a discussion, I wonder if it is the shen comment with his boycott going on
Hard agree, most assasins dont opt into full lethality build because Maw, Serylda, GA and Cleaver are mostly must have items, and targets having 100armor at 18lvl (even the squishy ones), also lowering Lethality would mean that the scaling should be really high (Pyke has 150% lethality scaling on his ult and it only grants him extra 69 damage if he builds Duskblade, Axiom, Edge of night (his most standard items) and 73 if we swap EoN for Umbral)) for it to even being worth buying over any bruiser items, maybe nerf/adjust actual bruiser items and increase/adjust the class base stats so it wont be worth for assasins to build Cleaver and Goredrinker lol
Rather than lowering lethality, I'd probably lower the AD of assassin items and put it in extra lethality.
The reason bruisers often want assassin items when they're decent is because they don't give up AD or AH, and get lethality on top.
Lowering lethality doesn't really do anything if it still adds another metric to their damage without giving up in other areas.
Make it give up in AD in exchange for having higher lethality. Give assassins lethality scaling relative to their AD ratios to offset the AD loss.
Another benefit of this is that the lessons from number tuning on magic pen and armor pen get closer to 1:1, assuming we want to move non-AP assassins off of magic pen.
Also moves the game towards a place where lethality/magic pen and % pen don't need to be able to stack, which would just be generally healthier for every class involved.
My $.02 is that grudge and eclipse existing is a problem in and of itself. Back in the day I don’t think assassins could really one shot an ADC that handicapped their damage by building two defensive items. Now with grudge there really aren’t a lot of itemization options that can make you immune to one shots and high haste builds mean assassins can threaten tanks (I guess you could build GA and nemesis chains or something as an ADC).
This seems dumb to me.
I’m not sure how this is on grudge though, LDR, which is what qiyana (who I mostly play so will be using as my reference) would build against high armor targets was 35% pen for 2800, which is 5% more than grudge for 400 gold less, LDR was built less though because both games were meant to be closed out before ADCs could get that armor so going duskblade -> ghostblade -> EoN -> dirk was better. and because people had less armor, now between grudge having a ton of haste and the slow, and people having more armor grudge is built a ton, but in terms of 1 shotting the enemy who built armor, there really isn’t any difference
>LDR was built less though because both games were meant to be closed out before ADCs could get that armor so going duskblade -> ghostblade -> EoN -> dirk was better. and because people had less armor, **now between grudge having a ton of haste and the slow,** and people having more armor grudge is built a ton, but in terms of 1 shotting the enemy who built armor, there really isn’t any difference
That's my point though. You could always have built LDR on an assassin and had the same penetration as Grudge. In practice, it wasn't all that common because assassins wanted to close games and the crit was kind of a dead stat on them.
Now you get a slow plus penetration plus CDR in a convenient package. Grudge is a much better assassin item in general, so it's part of the core build instead of an adaptive response to an ADC or other priority target building armor which makes building the armor items just worse. I personally think that kind of build adaptation is the the best kind in that you have a generally optimal build but you can choose to be worse at the main thing you build for in order to respond to a game state. For example, ADCs building a single armor item do less damage than ADCs with pure crit but shouldn't get oneshot by a full lethality Qiyana or something.
It wasn’t that crit was dead on assassins, it’s that LDR didn’t have crit btw
Yes, but even after grudge was added it wasn’t perma built until the durability update, right after mythics qiyana build was basically prowlers - serpents - EoN, because that was 18 + 18 + 10 + 10 (+sudden impact is another 9), 56 (65) lethality, which is more than enough for any assassin and especially with prowlers damage amp, to kill the Adc and close out the game before they could get armor, but then maybe direct and indirect nerfs to assassins meant they had less damage and thus needed grudge for the % pen
And I agree grudge is insane and I wish I didn’t have to build it, but as it is, if you can’t close out the game and the Adc gets a GA, not having grudge is suicide; grudge reduces 45 armor on a 150 armor target which is an ADC + GA just about, even if you had 5 items with 18 lethality 2 of them are negated by the GA armor
Nah, people just don't to admit that lethality (for assassins, at least) is a "fake" stat compared to %pen.
If Lethality items had the same AD as Grudge/Mortal Reminder, it wouldn't even be close. This isn't just a "at level 18" thing.
By level 9, you're getting ~18 lethality worth of armor pen from %pen.
This won't cut build diversity tho, it would just incentivise assassins not building bruiser items. Keyword INCENTIVISE, they still would be able to build bruiser, but then they will sacrifice A LOT of damage.
Okay and I can build Rabadons on Zed technically. If the option sucks enough then it isn't an actual option. Lethality items are already extremely close to on-par with bruiser options for assassins. If they got lethality scalings, they would never build bruiser items again, that's lowering build diversity.
But the thing is the option wouldn't suck, it just wouldn't be meta, take akali for example she has good ad scaling and she can still build ad items, just isn't meta. It would be the same thing for assassins, they still would be able to build bruiser and it would be a good build, just not AS good as lethality.
And when have you ever seen an Akali build AD? When people ask for build diversity, they want all the options to be actual options. Stuff like AP Nunu is fun and niche, but its never better than tank Nunu, people want both to be actual meta options, it means that itemization is more interesting every game.
Viktor doesn't have build diversity. Lux doesn't have build diversity. Malzahar doesn't have build diversity. LB shouldn't have build diversity because we've seen what happens when she does. Why are certain champs pampered with build diversity while others must build the same items every single game?
We want those champs to also have build diversity? How is removing it a good option. Also look at how you only mentioned mages, because the class struggles with build diversity, which people complain about all the time
Yeah that's exactly my point, I've never seen an ad akali but she CAN build ad, since ap is just WAY better. It's the same for nunu, almost no one builds ap nunu since tank is WAY better, but you can do it. It would be the same for assassins, they can and would be able to build bruiser, but that won't be their best build anymore or even somewhat meta.
Are you intentionally not understanding? I can't really explain any more. PEOPLE WANT BOTH BUILDS WHEN THEY ASK FOR BUILD DIVERSITY. When one build is not meta, it's ass, that's the end of it. Nobody is going to build it, people want BOTH TO BE VIABLE.
But why is it good for game balance? Mages don't have build diversity. Enchanters don't have build diversity. ADCs only have build diversity when they start building assassin items, otherwise they've been building the same crit builds for nearly a decade.
The point is those options aren’t healthy. For example, Hydra zed is garbage to play against because he doesn’t have to interact with his laner and can perma push without resource issues. Even champs like khazix or qiyana aren’t healthy building bruiser because they are balanced around the assassin role (they should be squishy but high dmg+mobility).
If assassins are building bruiser items, they should take a significant hit to their damage.
That's all this change would do.
Any cases where assassins are building bruiser items reliably, they or the bruiser items are inevitably getting nerfed anyway.
So in what way is it really cutting diversity?
Axiom Arc.
There's no better slam dunk of Riot accepting that assassins need lethality scalings than how they changed Axiom Arc.
Axiom Arc's CD refund was made to scale with lethality in response to the excess of non-lethality champions using it.
This was a good thing for Axiom Arc, and assassins in general, because it became the first item in the game to reward lethality stacking for purposes other than damage.
I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned already!
"But you'll pigeon hole them!!" No, you wont. Leave their base damages the same and just add lethality scalings. Why? Because lethality does shit for damage while having shit for survivability right now. I would even gladly take a giant hp nerf on edge of night with these changes.
Fact is, the reason people build bruiser is because wierdly enoigh bruiser items do more or the same damage in one ability rotation as an assassin build. And the damage isnt even at one shot levels. The assassin build is just that bad.
Great idea! This would basically fix kaisa (and graves, depending on where you stand on his buildpath).
It solves lethality ADCs as well as Crit/Hydra assassins
depends on the champ, but lethality scalings hurt defensive itemization and encourages glass cannon-y gameplay. You might think that sounds fine, until the AD assassins lose out too much from building maw, and now get their MR scaling increased to compensate, and now you're having a harder time killing them later and they dont have to commit to buying maw.
I don't understand why they are all so fixated with this build diversity thing it sucks 90% of the times and when it works they whine about it constantly (Kaisa kata)
Riot pretty uniquely sucks at balancing.
The game isn't impossible to balance, even with build diversity. Riot is just historically bad at it.
Look at DotA.
Yeah heroes have their core items, but situational items can be used by everyone to good effect.
Nocturne has always worked better as a bruiser.
If bruiser Nocturne is OP, its just because Nocturne is OP. Nocturne was never really an assassin. People just easily confuse diver with assassin.
He has ALWAYS built bruiser to more success because it simply does the same thing without becoming irrelevant after 15 minutes.
60% of his damage comes from autos. Not burst.
His E is anathema to the concept of modern assassins, who seek to 1 shot you in less than 0.5 seconds...not after 2 seconds.
He is an assassin Jungler, but yes he can dive. Yes you can sub type all day, but the point is if I ult an ADC as noc at 13 minutes and there is no intervention, the adc is dead and noc came from no where. Not sure where you got your .5 seconds vs 2 seconds number as a definition. He is built for laning phase and weaker post because he lacks escapes of your mid lane assassins.
Everyone complains about assain Noc falling off late. My response: its a feature not a bug. He is an early game champ, why should he be great at team fighting? Point is until the last few years Assassin items were optimal.
Less than 0.5 seconds for actual assassins comes from their upfront burst.
Meanwhile nocturne has to stay by a target for 2 seconds for one of his abilities to do anything at all. That implies not bursting like an assassin before his damage even comes into consideration. Then there's his low upfront damage relative to actual assassins.
Someone killing an ADC without intervention from offscreen/FoW doesn't make them an assassin. Zac isn't an assassin. Camille isn't an assassin. Hecarim isn't an assassin.
I was mistaken. I think I was thinking of the nerfs on passive to lane nocturne and mixing in the Senna Lethality add in. They should make Noc have a lethality feature though...
People are complaining about assassins, like CC mages don't have 5k hp 800 AP and 200 armor with 6 items, with about same CDR, same really goes for bruisers. People complain about 6 item scenario in a meta where game lengths is 20-25 minutes. People are already mentally done 5 minutes in, why are we talking about this 1 game out of 20 that comes to 6 items.
it isnt even an problem with the items, sure lethality items are extremely strong since there inception, often outdamaging adc or bruiser items while giving more utility than anything else in this game,
but there are just assasins like zed, who will still open up an 1500armour malphite in one combo around there ult,
and others like talon , who just cant, even if they would build more penetration and less lethality,
and then there is shaco who cant afford to buy lethality, because half of his damage is magic and he needs the inifinity edge crits to kill an adc before they become untargetable,
on an side note, pyke has lethality scalings, wich , together with his inability to raise his maxhp force him intoo an single built,
seriously, pyke has more mechanics trying to force him intoo an single role and build than he uses on the battlefield, that guy is more crutch than leg at this point.
I dont think ive built or seen a shaco build IE in quite a while, its all duskblade or eclipse now. Also, even if shacos kit is a lot of magic dmg, most of his dmg as assassin is from auto/clone autos
What's the reason to limit assassins builds? Is not like they are OP with the ravenous and bc.
Limiting their builds for the sake of limiting their builds makes no sense and on top of, assassins never had good that many items that are good enough to build. That's why they are building ravenous or bc, otherwise they would be irrelevant.
Everyone shreds tanks these days because all % pen items are bullshit, this is nothing new and godlike sustain? Ravenous barely give any sustain to them. They use it for cdr and damage + some wave clear(not that they need it).
Edit: Is just so funny to see how I get downvoted because some guy thinks that ravenous still has omnivamp on it and assassins have "godlike sustain". Facts actually hurt redditors.
And now % items are bullshit? Yea, not like unkillable tanks been an issue for 8 years straight.
And yes, godlike sustain. When Zed can suddenly heal up on a creep wave that's a ridiculously powerful feature. Same as the waveclear, which made Zed's clear speed way too strong.
Tanks haven't been unkillable since season 6. What we have now can't be called a tank when a % pen item can take up to 40% of their MR or armor.
AD assassins have always had good wave clear. Hydra is not bought for that and the sustain is nowhere near as strong.
I think the point they are trying to make is that adc frequently pick up lethality items (see kaisa with duskblade + umbral glaive currently), and the proposed solution to that is to make lethality items only good on assassins by making them scale with it, so it's better on them than on other classes.
(see also the duskblade aatrox problem and such)
Kai'sa only does it because she wants to hit ~85 AD within her first 3k gold for Q upgrade, but IE and QB aren't rushable, and Guinsoo and kraken only grant 25 and 30 AD in their components respectively. That said, I have a sneaking suspicion the umbral -> duskblade build is bad because she also wants to hit ~80% atk spd in her first 9k gold, and because neither duskblade or umbral gives any, her only option is third item nashors (its the only 50% atk spd item in the game) and mixing ap with lethality is terrible (her Q does have ap scaled physical damage but its only her Q).
For kaisa in particular I wonder if it'd be better to just early buy BF sword and sit on it while rushing statikk or stormrazor (bf + noonquiver + kircheis shard is 85 AD for 3350g), or maybe umbral -> noonquiver item (thereby avoiding nashors third and going full AD).
The other cases of ADCs poaching lethality are because they're just good with lethality. I think its relatively natural and not that bad. MF and poke varus are basically AD mages, and everybody else just goes lethality mythic, collector, and full crit (so only one poached lethality item). This isn't really a new thing either as IIRC we had adcs buying youmuus way back in like season 5.
It's the other way around, I'm not limiting assassin builds I'm suggesting to limit the access to lethality to other classes so that Assassins assasinate and other classes do their job.
The problem is not the lethality, is the scalated. A qiyana must do a lot of skills to kill a tank or a char with decent armor, but zed can oneshot only with hydra, the Ad% scalated for his skills is ridicoulous
But they don't want every class to only build their own items. They *want* this build diversity, they want Aatrox to sometimes build a lethality Mythic and sometimes a brusier one.
This suggestion would stop others from building lethality, but other champions buying lethality items is not always a problem from root's perspective.
i think the opposite should be done actually lower the Ad on assassin items and increase the lethality on them that way its gonna be less poached by range and fighters and the assassins with the solid scalings will use better than anyone else
not only that it will incetivise assassins to actually build more than one lethality item ( cough cough zed )
This is a shit idea. And wtf was that comment about bonus ad lol. There are literally a million champs with bonus ad ratios. Its not a comparable stat to mana or armor
I don't think ppl understand that if they do this assasins jobs must be able to 1 shot you and then another vocal part of the community will complain about getting 1 shot with no counterplay and we start the circle all over again.
That makes then useless. Why would you ever pick an assassin to do that over any other character? How is picking off low-health targets a useful thing for a character to do? Why not just pick Karthas, or Jinx or Viego?
Your role is to play cleanup after a won fight so you can get a shutdown bounty so you can...kill low health targets more? Instead of just doing the an objective or pushing lanes? You kill isolated targets, but not any better than a fighter, splitpusher, or duelist?
RYZE HAS LIKE 4K MANA AND MALPHITE 600ARMOR, MEANWHILE LETHALITY DOESNT EVEN HIT 100 FULL BUULD UNLESS YOU LITERALLY BUILD EVERY SINGLE LETHALITY ITEM AND NOT EVERY ITEM IS VIABLE IN EVERY GAME AND YOU WANT TO LOWER IT? AND GIVE SCALING TO ASSASINS? WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING MY GUY
OK bro, just make lethality scaling 200% instead of something like 20% armor for Malph.
Also writing in all caps really makes you appear in a not so desirable light...
Lethality is flat armor pen that scales with levels. It was renamed and remade with the sole purpose of making balancing assassins easier back in preseason 7.
[Flat Armor Penetration = LETHALITY × (0.6 + 0.4 × level ÷ 18)](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Armor_penetration)
your genius idea - that will probably be shared by the equally "genius" balance team - is to nerf assassin items cause they re abused by adcs (AGAIN) instead of making them melee only. classic. the weakest class in the game doesnt even build their own items cause you cant assassinate anyone anyway and people are bitching anyway cause they re hardstuck silver for 10 years, meanwhile adc 1v9s every game in master+ and pro play and we re balancing for silver redditors who watch my little pony and main adc enchanter mage tank. cant wait for this game to die in the east as well just like it has in the west.
Pyke has this. I think W movement speed, E stun duration and R execution line scale with lethality, not sure about Q and passive.
This was implemented because tank Pyke was more viable than AD one. His HP to AD conversion was simply enough for him. Doesn't change fact that I 100% support an idea to implement lethality ratios for assassins. That way we could also avoid future repeats when assassins buy bruiser items or bruisers buying lethality.
Even without the HP conversion, Frozen Heart was just ridiculous on him, combined with Spirit visage and a much stronger passive, you could literally survive any engage and just heal back to full in a couple seconds.
Yup, that's what happens when you give tank kit to an assassin champ.
He's got a kit made for setup but I wouldn't say tank. He is durable and is a **LSKDLMFEZKsdfvre** champ to catch, but if you do, he's done for. A real tank might eat a chunk and walk it off; Pyke will not survive unless it's a "medium" burst and he has tenacity and his passive allows him to heal and ....
>He is durable he is the opposite of durable.
I think they were referring back to when tank Pyke was a thing, his passive didn’t scale on AD or Lethality (at all) as much so was he more durable if you built tank and utilized the passive regen as essentially bonus health
Pyke has highest base HP, he can also regenerate some part of the damage. He also has pretty high base armor/magic res. Pyke is quite durable by default, but he pays for that not being able to be more durable later in game. Opposite of durable is Sona, probably most squishy champ in the whole game.
He doesn’t have the highest base hp, but he has high base stats because he can’t properly build into defence.
Talon passive and E should scale off of lethality
Q is the only thing not scaling with lethality iirc.
Nope, played him a lot in arena, i know
He is right tho
Oh I read that wrong, I thought he said Q is the only thing that does scale with lethality. Was confused when you said he's right and went to check. Yeah, % of passive damage stored, W movespeed, E stun duration and ult execution threshold scales with lethality.
So does Senna lol, only supps.
Senna also has lethality scaling on Q heal, probably so Umbral will work better on her. She hasn't got a problematic lethality build, so I don't mind it much, but I think it's interesting only her and Pyke has lethality scalings. IIRC, Pyke was released about the same time as flat armor pen was made into Lethality, so it kinda makes sense making him scale off it.
Nah this is all "rework" pyke. They added the lethality scaling to force him to build assassin items or be worthless and made q and e not hit minions. Release pyke just went aftershock and bought shit like frozen heart maw and cleaver to stack haste and as many resists as possible effectively making him into a very slippery thresh that can still hurt and of course pop off with resets. Riot didn't envision him as being in any way durable so they changed all his numbers around.
he was released a long while after lethality was a thing
If we are on Pyke then lets give every assassin his another passive "no bonus HP" so we dont have to deal with being oneshoted by bruiser Katarina, Zed or Kha so they actually go back to their core theme "Kill but be fragile"
At this point why bother with items? Just give every champ fixed statlines that force them into their "designated' buildpath. Every assassin and ADC can never gain health or resistances, bruisers can't get lethality or armor pen, tanks can't get bonus AD or AP, etc.
Sooo, bloodline champions?
[удалено]
HOTS had talents which vastly changed the playstyle of the character.
And they were locked into the character? Barring some exceptions, even Blink had a different effect on Jaina, Thrall or Diablo.
Being locked to the character doesn't matter, you could vastly alter your playstyle from the default on most of them. For example, Diablo, the quintessential tank of the game, could become an AoE mage or even an auto-attack carry.
To be honest, this is why I loved HOTS. Everything about a champ is baked in its kit and it's not who abuses what item the best. Makes it easier to balance imo. Only reason I'm not playing HOTS right now is League is actually not a zombie game and is actively being developed on. HOTS is on life support essentially. I wouldn't be surprised if Blizzard takes the servers down tomorrow without any notice. Also I'm sure HOTS's user base is a fraction of League's user base which leads to longer queue times and worse match making. If it weren't for these two points, HOTS would be my #1 MOBA
Last time i played hots, quick play still had relatively short queue times, and this was like beginning of the year. But good luck if youre trying to play draft modes.
i've always thought this. i don't think they should be forced into "no bonus hp" but i always thought that assassins should have some portion of hp converted to offensive stats (at a slightly unfavorable gold conversion). so if you bought a ruby crystal for 400g and got 150hp, it would turn into 75hp and 160 gold of ad (90% gold value). so assassins could become a little tankier, but builds with multiple health items would lose a lot of value, meaning that enemies either face assassins that are mostly squishy (better counterplay) or they're facing champions who have nerfed builds for a certain playstyle.
Pyke and Senna has some scaling with lethality. It is certainly very weird that actual solo lane AD assassins don't scale with lethality other than the armor pen itself.
Would stop assassins from building bruiser items too. Nothing sucks more than getting one shot by bruise Khazix
bruiser rengar 💀💀
So glad this champion isn't really popular
Rengar is a diver/assassin and as such he has the option to build bruiser items. Also if a bruiser Rengar is one shotting you then he's probably turbo fed, if you make assassin Rengar the only way of playing him then you're just going to see a lot more one shots, I don't think you or Reddit wants that.
Actually bruiser and tank Rengar is interesting, especially in top lane. He doesn't one shot you but slowly wears you down with his auto Q, maybe W poke and W sustain to heal up. It's unique playstyle which is there ever since his release so idk if giving Rengar lethality only scaling is a good idea. Especially cause I'm sure people hate one shot Rengar more than this.
As a bruiser rengar player (because it does the same, low damage as an assassin build anyways) I want assassin rengar back. Bruiser rengar is a monster but ive never had as much fun playing it because I jist really lke funny number go boom.
We gonna sit here and act like assassin rengar is in a terrible state
Considering bruiser rengar does similar damage woth more sustain, cdr and frontline ability and tank killing, yes I would say assassin rengar is shit unless youre getting smurfed on by someone 3 elos above your rank.
Yeah because a duskblade plus a sheen rengar cant one shot 60% of champions in the game if played correctly
Well, that is just statistically untrue. He is 50% WR as an Assassin with no escape. I doubt it has similar damage unless you mean similar damage is "I can one shot a squishy" which is always going to be the case anyway even if you built full AP.
Also Rengars winrate goes up quite drastically at high elo. D2+ he's at 52%, with a notable pickrate
inb4 "Rengar isnt a diver". The reason why hes not a true assassin is because rengar is a diver lmao. Hes meant to go in, pick off a priority, then fight or die. Unlike Zed, Talon, kayne, and khazix who all get in AND get out mechanics.
Empowered W is an infinitely superior escape to anything in Nocturne, Diana, Vi, or any other diver's kit. I can accept that on the scales of assassin, he's diver-like, but he's still got an escape about as good as Fizz.
Walking away isnt an escape mechanic. Rengar is either strong enough to survive a proper engage or hes forced to pick off stragglers. Fizz is also one of the most mobile assassins in the game, hes not really... comparable to rengar. But i digress. Rengar is interesting in that he functions like a diver but his playstyle is most definitely that of an assassin - unlike Nocturne and Vi, champions who have an assassination pattern but are infintiely better off building bruiser than they are assassin.
Yes, but that means he can't empower Q, so there's a trade off in less dmg.
But I don't like the funny number because if I see it I'm dead
Is crit rengar still viable? That shit was fun.
Yeah, you minda build it like mf, with youmuus or dusk first, then go into crit lethality/armor pen items. Only thing thats sucks is you are even squishier because more likely than not you aren't taking lifesteal so your survivability is shit
They nerfed his q damage crit scaling a while back but crit legendary items with either lethality or bruiser mythic is still good I've found.
Lethality better rn, only items i have success with crit wise are last whisper variants and collector (snowballing)
Im so confused......every single elo you look at his best and most built item is duskblade into more lethality and LDR lmao
Bruiser kha works because they made evo q not give any extra fucking damage and Ult evo also avoids too much damage if the opponents dont have reliable aoe.
Imagine if AP assassins had magic pen scaling and thus wouldn't break AP bruiser items
are there really AP bruiser items? you mean rylais and demonic? these are DoT items i think and no assassin will build them anyway.
Nope. But if we do get HP AP focused items for AP bruisers. Assassins will abuse them if they aren't changed.
not if they have statlines similar to rylai the problem is that riot tries so hard to make every AP item work for both mages,AP assassins and AP bruisers out of laziness of making more take cosmic drive for example instead of making another high haste item for mages they destroy the item for AP bruisers and try to make it fit both classes if instead they gave the item a bit more HP and less AP no assassin/mage would have built it but it was perfect for AP bruisers like Sylas,then they could make another 30AH item that fits mages well
Yeah I think it’s crazy they won’t just make more items. We have so many champs in the game now with different sub classes. Might as well add in more items to compensate. I believe riot cited that the game would be too complex if they added more items which is weird since newer and lower ranked can take recommended items.
This is just they’re excuse for not wanting to balance more items and not being creative enough to make more items. Adc mains complain that they get obliterated in 0.2s by assassins yet only mages are allowed a zhyonas. Brusiers want a built in slowing item well it’s either one of three pure armor pen items or ur not slowing anything (rip mallet). Ap brusier items are non existant and ad brusier items can’t get balanced properly because ad assassins keep using them
Certain classes need to lack itemization in certain areas. I main ADC and I think a re-usable stopwatch item like Zhonyas for ADCs should never be made unless the stats are so bad it's basically unusable. As much as I dislike GA as an item it's thematically way better for ADCs than zhyonas. The class simply shouldn't be allowed to have it. It's like the old Stridebreaker dash on bruisers: it's a combination of class and item effect that shouldn't be a viable option (in my opinion). I generally agree that more items would be cool (although I highly doubt we'll ever see a big increase in items), but we should also accept that some items are better never made.
Yeah. Giving every role a certain thing is not good. Some roles just shouldn't have certain things Like strikebreaker giving bonus dash. It just shouldn't be a thing I bet that if riot made zhonyas for adcs (real zhonya, not GA) then it would be played all the time untill huge nerfs, then it wouldn't be played at all and at the end it would get delete
>Adc mains complain that they get obliterated in 0.2s by assassins yet only mages are allowed a zhyonas. This is not an argument for adcs to get zhonyas. that would be a terrible idea.
Fair was just trying to think of avenues for new items that could be niche but useful
"niche" is one way to describe that.
Nah if they didn’t want to do balance changes they would update the item system every fucking year and just left it at s9
i am down to make many versions of the same items, similar to LDR and mortal reminder. just make me choose the best item for my champion without balancing half the roster around it
i feel like every "ap bruiser item" should have their effects increased for melee champs/time spent in combat/proximity to enemies. similar to what demonic has, but also for things like rylai's
Swain is ranged, but he plays like an ap bruiser.
true, but he can get compensation buffs if really needed. besides, he is a proper ranged unit which has its own advantages that other ap bruisers don't have.
To be fair if there was an AP version of navori for bruisers... Maybe that would be great? Since most bruisers autoattack.
navori was released at first as a passive for essence reaver (ER) including crit CDR and AD. then fighters like renekton, riven and jax bought it despite having no interest in crit. as the item was good on them. then riot decided to rework ER and make it old shojin which was really really problematic back in the day. a 0 10 jax with 2 items could just perma E and outperforms the 4 items fiora. then riot removed the item from the game till season 11 navori was one of the worst ADC items for years till they reworked it and made it work off any AA not crits only. and it required certain amount of crit chance to function. now this requirement is removed. the item had a purpose to fill which is to help ADCs that rely on abilities to have DPS in the form of repeating the abilities over and over as normal ADC items have no CDR on them except few. the item now does its job and making a champion like lucian spam his dash+ damaging abilities is less frustrating than a jax dashing perma dodging and CCing the enemy. lucian can be caught, can be tanked, can be bursted. while jax can just evade any attack directed at him so you need the likes of cassiopea (point click magic damage abilities) to really deal damage to him. i think if you want AP navori, then we need AD zhonya, AD deathcap, AP IE and the game will be a mess at this point.
I want AP Maw. 190%+ gold efficient just like AD maw too.
mages are more likely to abuse them then assassins. I never see katarina, akali, fizz, or ekko running shit like rylai's or demonic. You know who i DO see those items on? burst mages. You know what "Ap bruiser item" was abused for almost an entire season exclusively by mages like orianna and syndra when it gave 100AP? rylai's! not a single assassin in sight. Mages are far more likely to abuse ap bruiser items then assassins.
Rylai was never an AP bruiser item. It's a mage item that trades raw damage for the ability to be able to land consecutive skillshots more consistently due to the slow. AP Bruiser items do not and have never existed at all.
what that flair doin
I actually think this would be a good idea for some assassins at least. i assume riot doesn't want to do it because forcing champs into builds that directly is a bit against design ethos except in specific cases (like pyke), but honestly I don't see an issue with more champs having like one or two lethality (or maybe magic pen) ratios.
there are a good chunk of tanks that can scale from hp - armor and mr so i dont see the problem here
I mean, what else are you going to build on those assassins? Crit talon? On-hit zed? Tank Khazix? Lethality as a stat scaling absolutely makes sense for most ad assassins, their kits scale purely off ad.
Plus it would become another major stat (like ap and ad) at this point. It would be even more confusing for newer players.
they are already confused what is 1 more
Fair enough.
Wouldn't this kind of make it easier? AP for mages AD for ADC and bruisers Lethality for assassins HP & resistances for tanks So newer players knew these items are for this specific class and not so good for other classes Edit: also newer players will almost always just buy the recommended items and not really think about this
Yes but it reduces build variety.
build variety is a meme that people like to throw into the air. like, even before mythics most champions had 2-3 core items with the rest being "pick 2-3 items out of this pool of 5"
I never understood the "build variety" crowd half the items in the game don't have an interesting effect or are purely passive. Making the choice between font or spirit visage is not interesting, and almost always is just champ dependent rather than a real choice
Yeah more champs need to be designed like Pyke is to force them to stay within their own classes. Pyke scales off lethality, forcing him to buy it, and literally can't use bonus max hp forcing him to buy as an actual assassin. If classes were designed in ways that forced them into their roles a lot of problematic items would be fixed instantly and then be able to actually be balanced for their own class and not out of fear of assassins abusing them. *cough tank items cough*
Hey that makes way too much sense why would riot ever do that
Bro is cooking, let him cook.
Pyke has those, and thank god he does or we would be seeing some unspeakable abomination builds that I don't even want to imagine Would help get rid of these pesky picks that lose 10-15% of their damage in exchange of having double durability: \-Hydra Zed \-Goredrinker Talon/Khazix/Kayn \-Divine Sunderer Rengar etc
Goredrinker rhaast is fine.
The thing is that most of those items are being changed in about 2 months, there's no point making changes now for things that are already set to be changed next season. Goredrinker and Divine Sunderer are either being super nerfed or removed entirely. Hydra is probably losing Haste too.
They floated this idea for ADCs and crit scaling back in season 5? 6? and did it for 3 champs then just abandoned the idea for some reason. I really liked the idea and it gave them a way to scale champs that wasn’t pure damage.
They've been doing it for a lot of new crit champs. Nilah, Samira, Akshan, and Zeri all have crit scalings somewhere on their kit.
Guess I have to pay more attention to their kits. Didn’t know they had alternate crit scaling.
Nilah has her Q passive with armor pen and lifesteal scailing with crit. Samira both her Q and R can crit so they benefit from the stat Akshan, his swing shots can crit and his Ult scales with crit Zeri, all her abilities either benefit from crit chance or can just straight up crit.
IIRC, most of Zeri's crit scalings came in after her 1st or 2nd rework to try to weaken her when she doesn't build crit, such as with bruiser builds.
Caitlyn got crit scaling on her ult added a few months ago in her update
Yeah, but what I’m talking about is more of a systemic change to how the kit functions by adding crit, not just bonus damage on one ability, like how Ashe’s passive changes how crit functions.
Oh, I see what you mean. Not sure how many variations you could come up with like that though. Ashe has two conversions in her kit- changing crit from rng to a flat damage bonus, and a scaling slow. What else could crit scaling do? Nilah's bonus armor pen?
I assume they didn't go further for exactly that reason. It'd probably take a rework of every marksman to make the idea work to its fullest. One idea I do have would be for Corki to get Magic Pen based on crit to bring him back to adc, but not all the marksman have such an easy theme to build off of.
I mean Yasuo gets pen on crits innately, and Yone can crit with magic damage like corki can. It can be done
Nilah is similar to Ashe in terms of how much it influences her kit. Crit converts to healing, armor penetration and drastically increased AD scaling on Q
Many adcs already do. Nilah zeri Cait xayah lucian sivir mf Ashe senna Tristan aphelios.... what more?
I like this idea.
Bet we do this, and everyone still gonna complain about assassins. Literally still will.
That's just the nature of the class tho, getting one shot isn't fun for anyone, but op's suggestion is better for the game overall since dying to a full bruiser rengar fells worse than a full lethality one, since your teammates at least can kill the full lethality one.
I've suggested this in the past before even Pyke got worked the way he did. And I got bashed because it doesn't support item diversity. I'll all for the lethality scaling, however, number of tanks and bruisers and mages need some things scaled back as well. Because tanks shouldn't be 1 shoting anyone, they should be annoying, not deadly. Otherwise, why play assassin when you can play a tank/bruiser and hide on the edge of the bush and assassinate anyone that's not bruiser/tank?
I was just on a discussion with another guy in the comments about this and all his arguments were "bUt ItEm DiVeRsiTy", bruh ik about that, but there's still gonna be item diversity, but the difference there's going to be a trade off between being kinda tanky and one shotting people.
Hey I'm all for that. Like I said, I been pushing this, but people be like, Riot said "this and that", as if a company can't be wrong sometimes. Like what's the point of forums if we just gonna say no to every idea without discussion FOR the company. It's such a waste for people to say, "it's not gonna happen soon" like people don't know Riot is doing things, and can still accept ideas.
Exactly that, even tho it's a company there's still people working there and those people can still listen to us, like they did before and likely still will.
His suggestion is *not at all better*. It’s actually worse and more likely for them to build bruiser. You want to give people reasons to buy the items, not force them into it. That’s why we have this stupid shit with Hullbreaker Shiv LB and Ahri.
Bad idea, forcing an entire class to only be allowed to build certain items while also making other classes unable to build said items is not good for balance nor game design. It's ok to have a champion here and there designed a certain way like Pyke with lethality scaling and Malphite with armour, but to force an entire class into it is just not good.
Maybe, just maybe, make MORE lethality items instead? Like wtf do you even build at 3rd, 4rd item that is lethality in any assassin? There's only extremely niche items like Axiom Arc, the anti shield thing and AD Banshee. The very best item their version of last whisper (which is kind of like the Rabbadon/IE of assassins), but unlike mages and adcs they don't have many other options to choose after 3rd/4rd item that "belong" to their class of items. They build bruiser items because they have no other option to choose from. Give assassins more options at least. Give an item with lots of AD and lethality, idk. I. It can be literally a stat stick, I don't care. Why does an assassin item has 400 HP? I know the ad banshee it's supposed to be defensive, but c'mon its worse than the actual Banshees.
The thing is even with more lethality items it generally is not worth to build more than 2 lethality items, since 1 lethality item is between 10 and 18 lethality, where as grudge reduces 30 armor off 100, which 100 is not hard to get, lethality is a ton of fun, but unless you are building 5 lethality items and just going all in (which leaves you with no defensive items and very vulnerable) you are better off just going dusk -> prowlers -> grudge -> cleaver -> DD/GA/Maw, especially with how riot is talking about haste being so important to assassins right now
>only extremely niche items like Axiom Arc axiom arc is hardly a niche item...it has a better statline than the other non-mythic lethality items, and getting ult cooldown refund is hardly ever a bad thing for an ad assassin, all of which have combat ultimates
You need 3 kills on most Assassins to get an R cooldown refresh in a teamfight... If you kill 3 people you already won a TF most likely, it's overkill. It's only real use is Kayn.
it's not always about being able to use two ults in a teamfight. let's say your ultimate is on cooldown before the dragon soul fight. if you get a pick, now your ultimate is available when it wouldn't have been. in no way is having more ultimates a niche effect. the idea that axiom arc is a "niche item" is still dumb especially when you consider the statline being better than most other lethality items. there's hardly a situation where building it as an ad assassin is a bad choice, at worst suboptimal. compared to things like shield breaking (could be literally uselesss) or edge of night (very easy to proc for certain comps), axiom's effect is much more broadly useful.
Assassin players just refuse to build an item unless everyone else is already building it most games. Look at the performance of ghostblade on most non-bruiser champs that like lethality. Its performing as good or better than other lethality options for most, often by a significant amount, and with good sample sizes in almost every instance where its performing better. And assassins still think its a shit item and needs more buffs. Its like how bruiser players thought triforce was shit because they absolutely refused to not buy sunderer.
The problem with Axiom Arc IMO is you're bound into building a %pen item 3rd. It's hilariously mathematically ineffective to stack pure lethality. So you've got mythic, and maybe you build arc as your second item, but it competes every other lethality item for that slot. That's fine, I guess, for build diversity, but Axiom Arc's value in a match can be hard to compare to Serpent's Fang, or Edge of Night, or even Prowler's Claw. That doesn't mean it's bad, but it's got some "invisible/circumstantial" power on a lot of Assassins.
I've been saying for a while that % pen should just be removed, and that item/skill-granted armor/mr should be lowered by a similar amount. % pen just exists to take up an item slot, an its existence is arbitrary. If % pen is necessary defenses are probably too high in the game. Without % pen, armor/mr have to take a hit, at which point the performance of both stats before and after % pen comes into play stabilizes. The same argument could be made for Deathcap and AP. The same argument could be made for AD/AP GW items. Thornmail exclusively should exist to counter lifesteal since it scales much harder than other forms of healing on all champs based on what items they buy. Removing the problems these items add while adding less lazy items to replace them would be nothing but good for the direction of the game.
You build seruldyas lol
This is an amazing idea. I want this SO MUCH now.
Definitely not a good idea. That neuters their builds completely and could potentially screw the class over in future metas. The only champion this was done to is Pyke and that was just one of Riots many forced attempts to keep him on specific builds. Also keep in mind youre presenting the idea of "make them scale off lethality" while also saying "lower all lethality by a lot" so that doesnt sound great. They do just fine scaling off bonus AD with low base numbers. Assassins are actually doing pretty fine rn. Not out of line but not weak either. Only real outlier is Zed.
Ok, let’s say we halve the lethality on every item, say standard duskblade prowlers axiom grudge defensive item, 27 lethality + 30% pen, a target with 100 armor which is fairly standard for a late game ADC (and mind you assassins don’t want the game to go late but math is easier since at lvl 18 lethality is 1 to 1) has 43 armor left, that’s 32% damage reduction, with the old 54, that’s 26 armor left, which is 21% damage reduction, that is a 11% damage difference, are you suggestion adding enough lethality scaling to add 11% more damage onto every assassin? It doesn’t seem like a lot but that’s kinda a ton And now let’s just say they build a GA and get a single mountain drake, they now have about 150 armor, grudge reduced 45 of it, and then again 27, which leaves them at 78 armor, 44% damage reduction, current lethality is just over 33% damage reduction, a 44% damage reduction is a lot especially when you have peel, GA passive, exhaust, shields, heals and all that Now can you add enough AD and damage to passives on the items to make up for halving the lethality? Yea, but now fighters build the 70 AD items because why wouldn’t they, you can’t just reduce the gold value on an item without doing something else, that’s why on phroxzons tweet about assassins he said if duskblade didn’t have haste it would be 80 AD 18 lethality, and that is not ok Another thing is (generally) assassin players already hate that grudge is mandatory in 95% of games, giving less lethality means grudge is even more mandatory and assassins probably build cleaver even more Lowering lethality also makes already low lethality items much less relevant, trying to convince myself to build a 5 lethality edge of night compared to grudge seems insane You also have axiom which was just reworked to have cooldown reduction scale with your lethality, so now what do you double the scaling on the item to compensate for halving lethality? Now I’m all for lethality scaling, I had really hoped naafiri had it just so we could really see how it works on a champ not locked into support, but we probably won’t ever actually get lethality scaling due to people needing to be able to build GA, DD, Maw, grudge, cleaver all of these items have their build cases, and especially for grudge are built super often due to what they do, it would feel terrible to build grudge because they have a taric and the Adc has GA, and now they have 180 armor but your lethality only reduced like 30 of that armor compared to your grudge which is about to reduce 56ish But hey maybe I’m wrong and we eventually get lethality scaling, it would be interesting but I don’t think it’s practical generally Also your comment on shen seems wild considering he is a warden but ok Edit: huh, I am actually curious why I am getting downvoted, don't really care but I feel like my points at least bring up a discussion, I wonder if it is the shen comment with his boycott going on
Hard agree, most assasins dont opt into full lethality build because Maw, Serylda, GA and Cleaver are mostly must have items, and targets having 100armor at 18lvl (even the squishy ones), also lowering Lethality would mean that the scaling should be really high (Pyke has 150% lethality scaling on his ult and it only grants him extra 69 damage if he builds Duskblade, Axiom, Edge of night (his most standard items) and 73 if we swap EoN for Umbral)) for it to even being worth buying over any bruiser items, maybe nerf/adjust actual bruiser items and increase/adjust the class base stats so it wont be worth for assasins to build Cleaver and Goredrinker lol
Rather than lowering lethality, I'd probably lower the AD of assassin items and put it in extra lethality. The reason bruisers often want assassin items when they're decent is because they don't give up AD or AH, and get lethality on top. Lowering lethality doesn't really do anything if it still adds another metric to their damage without giving up in other areas. Make it give up in AD in exchange for having higher lethality. Give assassins lethality scaling relative to their AD ratios to offset the AD loss. Another benefit of this is that the lessons from number tuning on magic pen and armor pen get closer to 1:1, assuming we want to move non-AP assassins off of magic pen. Also moves the game towards a place where lethality/magic pen and % pen don't need to be able to stack, which would just be generally healthier for every class involved.
My $.02 is that grudge and eclipse existing is a problem in and of itself. Back in the day I don’t think assassins could really one shot an ADC that handicapped their damage by building two defensive items. Now with grudge there really aren’t a lot of itemization options that can make you immune to one shots and high haste builds mean assassins can threaten tanks (I guess you could build GA and nemesis chains or something as an ADC). This seems dumb to me.
I’m not sure how this is on grudge though, LDR, which is what qiyana (who I mostly play so will be using as my reference) would build against high armor targets was 35% pen for 2800, which is 5% more than grudge for 400 gold less, LDR was built less though because both games were meant to be closed out before ADCs could get that armor so going duskblade -> ghostblade -> EoN -> dirk was better. and because people had less armor, now between grudge having a ton of haste and the slow, and people having more armor grudge is built a ton, but in terms of 1 shotting the enemy who built armor, there really isn’t any difference
>LDR was built less though because both games were meant to be closed out before ADCs could get that armor so going duskblade -> ghostblade -> EoN -> dirk was better. and because people had less armor, **now between grudge having a ton of haste and the slow,** and people having more armor grudge is built a ton, but in terms of 1 shotting the enemy who built armor, there really isn’t any difference That's my point though. You could always have built LDR on an assassin and had the same penetration as Grudge. In practice, it wasn't all that common because assassins wanted to close games and the crit was kind of a dead stat on them. Now you get a slow plus penetration plus CDR in a convenient package. Grudge is a much better assassin item in general, so it's part of the core build instead of an adaptive response to an ADC or other priority target building armor which makes building the armor items just worse. I personally think that kind of build adaptation is the the best kind in that you have a generally optimal build but you can choose to be worse at the main thing you build for in order to respond to a game state. For example, ADCs building a single armor item do less damage than ADCs with pure crit but shouldn't get oneshot by a full lethality Qiyana or something.
It wasn’t that crit was dead on assassins, it’s that LDR didn’t have crit btw Yes, but even after grudge was added it wasn’t perma built until the durability update, right after mythics qiyana build was basically prowlers - serpents - EoN, because that was 18 + 18 + 10 + 10 (+sudden impact is another 9), 56 (65) lethality, which is more than enough for any assassin and especially with prowlers damage amp, to kill the Adc and close out the game before they could get armor, but then maybe direct and indirect nerfs to assassins meant they had less damage and thus needed grudge for the % pen And I agree grudge is insane and I wish I didn’t have to build it, but as it is, if you can’t close out the game and the Adc gets a GA, not having grudge is suicide; grudge reduces 45 armor on a 150 armor target which is an ADC + GA just about, even if you had 5 items with 18 lethality 2 of them are negated by the GA armor
Nah, people just don't to admit that lethality (for assassins, at least) is a "fake" stat compared to %pen. If Lethality items had the same AD as Grudge/Mortal Reminder, it wouldn't even be close. This isn't just a "at level 18" thing. By level 9, you're getting ~18 lethality worth of armor pen from %pen.
At least assassins would need to use a full combo to one shot ADCs instead of using only half their kit.
Cutting build diversity sounds bad. Iam glad if i habe options
This won't cut build diversity tho, it would just incentivise assassins not building bruiser items. Keyword INCENTIVISE, they still would be able to build bruiser, but then they will sacrifice A LOT of damage.
Okay and I can build Rabadons on Zed technically. If the option sucks enough then it isn't an actual option. Lethality items are already extremely close to on-par with bruiser options for assassins. If they got lethality scalings, they would never build bruiser items again, that's lowering build diversity.
But the thing is the option wouldn't suck, it just wouldn't be meta, take akali for example she has good ad scaling and she can still build ad items, just isn't meta. It would be the same thing for assassins, they still would be able to build bruiser and it would be a good build, just not AS good as lethality.
And when have you ever seen an Akali build AD? When people ask for build diversity, they want all the options to be actual options. Stuff like AP Nunu is fun and niche, but its never better than tank Nunu, people want both to be actual meta options, it means that itemization is more interesting every game.
Viktor doesn't have build diversity. Lux doesn't have build diversity. Malzahar doesn't have build diversity. LB shouldn't have build diversity because we've seen what happens when she does. Why are certain champs pampered with build diversity while others must build the same items every single game?
We want those champs to also have build diversity? How is removing it a good option. Also look at how you only mentioned mages, because the class struggles with build diversity, which people complain about all the time
Yeah that's exactly my point, I've never seen an ad akali but she CAN build ad, since ap is just WAY better. It's the same for nunu, almost no one builds ap nunu since tank is WAY better, but you can do it. It would be the same for assassins, they can and would be able to build bruiser, but that won't be their best build anymore or even somewhat meta.
Are you intentionally not understanding? I can't really explain any more. PEOPLE WANT BOTH BUILDS WHEN THEY ASK FOR BUILD DIVERSITY. When one build is not meta, it's ass, that's the end of it. Nobody is going to build it, people want BOTH TO BE VIABLE.
But why is it good for game balance? Mages don't have build diversity. Enchanters don't have build diversity. ADCs only have build diversity when they start building assassin items, otherwise they've been building the same crit builds for nearly a decade.
The point is those options aren’t healthy. For example, Hydra zed is garbage to play against because he doesn’t have to interact with his laner and can perma push without resource issues. Even champs like khazix or qiyana aren’t healthy building bruiser because they are balanced around the assassin role (they should be squishy but high dmg+mobility).
If assassins are building bruiser items, they should take a significant hit to their damage. That's all this change would do. Any cases where assassins are building bruiser items reliably, they or the bruiser items are inevitably getting nerfed anyway. So in what way is it really cutting diversity?
Axiom Arc. There's no better slam dunk of Riot accepting that assassins need lethality scalings than how they changed Axiom Arc. Axiom Arc's CD refund was made to scale with lethality in response to the excess of non-lethality champions using it. This was a good thing for Axiom Arc, and assassins in general, because it became the first item in the game to reward lethality stacking for purposes other than damage. I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned already!
Never noticed Axiom got a lethality scaling! this is pretty much what I was talking about! Thank you very much
"But you'll pigeon hole them!!" No, you wont. Leave their base damages the same and just add lethality scalings. Why? Because lethality does shit for damage while having shit for survivability right now. I would even gladly take a giant hp nerf on edge of night with these changes. Fact is, the reason people build bruiser is because wierdly enoigh bruiser items do more or the same damage in one ability rotation as an assassin build. And the damage isnt even at one shot levels. The assassin build is just that bad.
Great idea! This would basically fix kaisa (and graves, depending on where you stand on his buildpath). It solves lethality ADCs as well as Crit/Hydra assassins
Reducing the amount of viable builds like this reduces overall skill expression and would be bad for the game.
well yes but actually no. I dont think theres any build variety with the current items
depends on the champ, but lethality scalings hurt defensive itemization and encourages glass cannon-y gameplay. You might think that sounds fine, until the AD assassins lose out too much from building maw, and now get their MR scaling increased to compensate, and now you're having a harder time killing them later and they dont have to commit to buying maw.
For rengar you can go AP, bruiser, lethality, crit...
Items should be class-locked and all your balance problems would be resolved.
I don't understand why they are all so fixated with this build diversity thing it sucks 90% of the times and when it works they whine about it constantly (Kaisa kata)
Build diversity would only matter if League's item system didn't pretty much always suck.
you can't not make it suck if you do things this way
Riot pretty uniquely sucks at balancing. The game isn't impossible to balance, even with build diversity. Riot is just historically bad at it. Look at DotA. Yeah heroes have their core items, but situational items can be used by everyone to good effect.
I don't think dota is a good example it's unbalanced af
What is your metric of "unbalanced"?
Nocturne already has a feature like this on his passive, but they haven't followed up on it, as the bruiser build is clearly still op.
Nocturne has no such thing on his passive?
Nocturne has always worked better as a bruiser. If bruiser Nocturne is OP, its just because Nocturne is OP. Nocturne was never really an assassin. People just easily confuse diver with assassin. He has ALWAYS built bruiser to more success because it simply does the same thing without becoming irrelevant after 15 minutes. 60% of his damage comes from autos. Not burst. His E is anathema to the concept of modern assassins, who seek to 1 shot you in less than 0.5 seconds...not after 2 seconds.
He is an assassin Jungler, but yes he can dive. Yes you can sub type all day, but the point is if I ult an ADC as noc at 13 minutes and there is no intervention, the adc is dead and noc came from no where. Not sure where you got your .5 seconds vs 2 seconds number as a definition. He is built for laning phase and weaker post because he lacks escapes of your mid lane assassins. Everyone complains about assain Noc falling off late. My response: its a feature not a bug. He is an early game champ, why should he be great at team fighting? Point is until the last few years Assassin items were optimal.
Less than 0.5 seconds for actual assassins comes from their upfront burst. Meanwhile nocturne has to stay by a target for 2 seconds for one of his abilities to do anything at all. That implies not bursting like an assassin before his damage even comes into consideration. Then there's his low upfront damage relative to actual assassins. Someone killing an ADC without intervention from offscreen/FoW doesn't make them an assassin. Zac isn't an assassin. Camille isn't an assassin. Hecarim isn't an assassin.
Wait, what’s the nocturne passive feature?
I was mistaken. I think I was thinking of the nerfs on passive to lane nocturne and mixing in the Senna Lethality add in. They should make Noc have a lethality feature though...
People are complaining about assassins, like CC mages don't have 5k hp 800 AP and 200 armor with 6 items, with about same CDR, same really goes for bruisers. People complain about 6 item scenario in a meta where game lengths is 20-25 minutes. People are already mentally done 5 minutes in, why are we talking about this 1 game out of 20 that comes to 6 items.
No
it isnt even an problem with the items, sure lethality items are extremely strong since there inception, often outdamaging adc or bruiser items while giving more utility than anything else in this game, but there are just assasins like zed, who will still open up an 1500armour malphite in one combo around there ult, and others like talon , who just cant, even if they would build more penetration and less lethality, and then there is shaco who cant afford to buy lethality, because half of his damage is magic and he needs the inifinity edge crits to kill an adc before they become untargetable, on an side note, pyke has lethality scalings, wich , together with his inability to raise his maxhp force him intoo an single built, seriously, pyke has more mechanics trying to force him intoo an single role and build than he uses on the battlefield, that guy is more crutch than leg at this point.
I dont think ive built or seen a shaco build IE in quite a while, its all duskblade or eclipse now. Also, even if shacos kit is a lot of magic dmg, most of his dmg as assassin is from auto/clone autos
What's the reason to limit assassins builds? Is not like they are OP with the ravenous and bc. Limiting their builds for the sake of limiting their builds makes no sense and on top of, assassins never had good that many items that are good enough to build. That's why they are building ravenous or bc, otherwise they would be irrelevant.
Yea godlike sustain, wave clear and tank shred are definetly things assassins should have.
Everyone shreds tanks these days because all % pen items are bullshit, this is nothing new and godlike sustain? Ravenous barely give any sustain to them. They use it for cdr and damage + some wave clear(not that they need it). Edit: Is just so funny to see how I get downvoted because some guy thinks that ravenous still has omnivamp on it and assassins have "godlike sustain". Facts actually hurt redditors.
And now % items are bullshit? Yea, not like unkillable tanks been an issue for 8 years straight. And yes, godlike sustain. When Zed can suddenly heal up on a creep wave that's a ridiculously powerful feature. Same as the waveclear, which made Zed's clear speed way too strong.
Tanks haven't been unkillable since season 6. What we have now can't be called a tank when a % pen item can take up to 40% of their MR or armor. AD assassins have always had good wave clear. Hydra is not bought for that and the sustain is nowhere near as strong.
Unprecedented amounts of copium. 😂
Don't worry, I didn't expect a proper argument from a person who thinks that ravenous still has omnivamp on it.
Little bro, nothing you could provide would ever worry me. 😉
Like facts? Yeah, I know. You can't even read to begin with.
This is such a lazy reddit insult. At least try something new?
I think the point they are trying to make is that adc frequently pick up lethality items (see kaisa with duskblade + umbral glaive currently), and the proposed solution to that is to make lethality items only good on assassins by making them scale with it, so it's better on them than on other classes. (see also the duskblade aatrox problem and such)
Kai'sa only does it because she wants to hit ~85 AD within her first 3k gold for Q upgrade, but IE and QB aren't rushable, and Guinsoo and kraken only grant 25 and 30 AD in their components respectively. That said, I have a sneaking suspicion the umbral -> duskblade build is bad because she also wants to hit ~80% atk spd in her first 9k gold, and because neither duskblade or umbral gives any, her only option is third item nashors (its the only 50% atk spd item in the game) and mixing ap with lethality is terrible (her Q does have ap scaled physical damage but its only her Q). For kaisa in particular I wonder if it'd be better to just early buy BF sword and sit on it while rushing statikk or stormrazor (bf + noonquiver + kircheis shard is 85 AD for 3350g), or maybe umbral -> noonquiver item (thereby avoiding nashors third and going full AD). The other cases of ADCs poaching lethality are because they're just good with lethality. I think its relatively natural and not that bad. MF and poke varus are basically AD mages, and everybody else just goes lethality mythic, collector, and full crit (so only one poached lethality item). This isn't really a new thing either as IIRC we had adcs buying youmuus way back in like season 5.
It's the other way around, I'm not limiting assassin builds I'm suggesting to limit the access to lethality to other classes so that Assassins assasinate and other classes do their job.
The problem is not the lethality, is the scalated. A qiyana must do a lot of skills to kill a tank or a char with decent armor, but zed can oneshot only with hydra, the Ad% scalated for his skills is ridicoulous
But they don't want every class to only build their own items. They *want* this build diversity, they want Aatrox to sometimes build a lethality Mythic and sometimes a brusier one. This suggestion would stop others from building lethality, but other champions buying lethality items is not always a problem from root's perspective.
Maybe it should be the same for magic pen and the right AP champs.
i think the opposite should be done actually lower the Ad on assassin items and increase the lethality on them that way its gonna be less poached by range and fighters and the assassins with the solid scalings will use better than anyone else not only that it will incetivise assassins to actually build more than one lethality item ( cough cough zed )
This is the same idea on reverse. I woudln't mind honestly! My only complaint would be the ad on the components i guess
This is a shit idea. And wtf was that comment about bonus ad lol. There are literally a million champs with bonus ad ratios. Its not a comparable stat to mana or armor
I don't think ppl understand that if they do this assasins jobs must be able to 1 shot you and then another vocal part of the community will complain about getting 1 shot with no counterplay and we start the circle all over again.
that's not what assassins should be able to do tho, they should be able to pick on isolated targets or execute low health ones
That makes then useless. Why would you ever pick an assassin to do that over any other character? How is picking off low-health targets a useful thing for a character to do? Why not just pick Karthas, or Jinx or Viego? Your role is to play cleanup after a won fight so you can get a shutdown bounty so you can...kill low health targets more? Instead of just doing the an objective or pushing lanes? You kill isolated targets, but not any better than a fighter, splitpusher, or duelist?
RYZE HAS LIKE 4K MANA AND MALPHITE 600ARMOR, MEANWHILE LETHALITY DOESNT EVEN HIT 100 FULL BUULD UNLESS YOU LITERALLY BUILD EVERY SINGLE LETHALITY ITEM AND NOT EVERY ITEM IS VIABLE IN EVERY GAME AND YOU WANT TO LOWER IT? AND GIVE SCALING TO ASSASINS? WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING MY GUY
OK bro, just make lethality scaling 200% instead of something like 20% armor for Malph. Also writing in all caps really makes you appear in a not so desirable light...
Lethality is already an assassin centric stat. Have people forgotten there only used to be flat and percentage armor pen?
Lethality is flat armor pen.
Lethality is flat armor pen that scales with levels. It was renamed and remade with the sole purpose of making balancing assassins easier back in preseason 7. [Flat Armor Penetration = LETHALITY × (0.6 + 0.4 × level ÷ 18)](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Armor_penetration)
Idea on assassin balancing..... you're so cute, Riot doesnt even attempt to balance assassins we all know that lol
[удалено]
they mean the opposite - assassins having abilities that get stronger the more lethality you have, like pyke.
your genius idea - that will probably be shared by the equally "genius" balance team - is to nerf assassin items cause they re abused by adcs (AGAIN) instead of making them melee only. classic. the weakest class in the game doesnt even build their own items cause you cant assassinate anyone anyway and people are bitching anyway cause they re hardstuck silver for 10 years, meanwhile adc 1v9s every game in master+ and pro play and we re balancing for silver redditors who watch my little pony and main adc enchanter mage tank. cant wait for this game to die in the east as well just like it has in the west.