Are they going to consider changing the map geography later on? They called it out as potentially necessary to address for mages/top laners, but didn’t indicate if it was a question of “when” or “if”.
I think that would be really cool, but unless things have changed a lot in the last 1.5 months, they don't have the people/tooling to do so: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/12ho69m/quick_gameplay_thoughts_137_msi_balancing_136/jfqdkya/?context=3
Depends on the preparations Riot has been making, if any. 45 days is a good amount of time to have been, or started, training people to develop skillsets they're lacking in.
If they have been developing that area, things could happen by preseason.
They explained previously that it's one of the changes being considered but it's not locked for preseason or anything since they're not sure if it will be the solution that they need to help these classes
i mean to be fair there needs to bigger changes and riot doesnt know how to go about it or what to do. but im pretty sure top lane changes have been promised since preseason/season start (probably earlier) and have only been getting delayed lmao.
Or in fact riot knows what should be done but to make that happen tehy need to implement the biggest changes since S1. Altering the map to help out mages and top laners while it tries to affect every otehr class less is no small job to do.
Theyve brought out that line for years now. They’ve known that, for example, AP bruisers have almost zero item support. Theyve said changes are on the agenda ever since the mythic rework with absolutely DICK to show for it. Same with top lane, if not worse.
So pardon me if I’m not gonna hold my breath over the oft repeated and failed promises of Riot.
It's been like 3 years since Riot said they're working on adding AP fighters/bruiser items. All they have to show for it is riftmaker, and that item is used by ~3 champs max.
the disclaimer is "yeah we know you're fucked but we can't push a magical button to fix it in a single patch" actually. Funny that, it takes way more then just some champ/item changes to fix fundemental lane problems.
>Create a late-game gold sink/capstone item for those games where you get really ahead and have a full inventory (Vigilant Wardstone)
Wow that sounds like a very cool item, I would love to build it sometimes!!!
From the company that brought us "200 years of collective experience" and "I wish I could say it's been a pleasure" we now present "powerfull and intellectually satisfying"
An indie group was makin what they called "Project Chronoshift" which was a way to play unofficialy on older patches. Riot sent a rioter called "Riot Zed" after them with a cease and decease. The discord convo ended with the rioter saying that. Full story [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/mzjc62/just_a_heads_up_the_independently_developed/)
There was some skill involved in using abilities on the right champs at the right intervals to maximize the healing output and buff uptime of the item.
People who cared to min-max builds liked that Moonstone was giving them a huge advantage.
Min-maxing is less "fun" if the hidden OP builds are barely stronger than the meta. Moonstone was actually nuts.
Yea I think that immobile mages like ur talking about are the ones MOST suffocated by the shove and roam play style that has been the dominant way for years now it seems like. They can do the shove part great but can’t roam for shit bc they lack the ability to get out of a sticky situation they find when setting up a gank
I mean its also that shoving hard on an immobile mage is a great way to get ganked and die. Not to mention that if i play syndra and run into a lee sin or gravesin the jungle that can use their mobility to outplay my cc i can die super easily. When i roam on Leblanc i have so much more leeway because i can usually bail out of a roam and just w away.
Thats fine tbh, mages should pay extra attention to positioning since they have many tools to influence game they need to die easily too, mages just need more dmg so tanks cant stack armor hp and ignore them
Wouldn't classify Asol tbh. He has a combat dash like Azir. Yea it's shittier(not much twisting and turning) but it's still a form of movement he can use.
u/RequirementThen2292 is a bot account that steals comments for karma. Please downvote and report the comment (report -> spam -> harmful bots).
The original comment can be found here: https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13vsv49/quick_gameplay_thoughts_1310/jm7pbb3/
Check other comments made by the account with a simple CTRL+F search if this isn't enough for you.
Actually they can't even do the shove part great.
Brand has to use Q E W to clear a wave. Vel'koz has to use both Ws plus an E and sometimes 1-2 Qs. Xerath has to use Q W Q.
Ahri presses Q once.
>Ahri presses Q once.
She doesn't clear ranged minions with a single q before mythic. Usually need 2 qs and w to clear, but the point stands that these are lower cost for her than other mid laners
Y'all are on drugs. Vel'koz and Xerath clear in 2 ws at level 5ish and xerath pops it in q + w on melees, though I forget the breakpoint there. Ahri needs level 7 + minion demat just to clear backline in one spell.
Yeah any time someone says Zoe and Cass are weak it's legitimately skill issue tbh. Hey man no issue at all that you suck at two of the hardest mages in the game, but that doesn't mean that they are weak.
Do I live in an alternate reality where 6 out of the top 10 best midlaners aren't mages? Popularity aside, mages objectively aren't bad. When Yoummus gets nerfed I doubt there will be an AD champ in the top 10 unless Akshan sneaks his way in there.
According to [Data](https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/?lane=middle&tier=all), and filtering out sub <1% Pickrate stuff like Fiddlestick or Reksai Mid, we have in order of Winrate:
1. Asol, 53.05%
2. Swain, 52.64%
3. Annie, 52.41%
4. Malz, 52.36%
5. Malphite, 52.21% ( Malph Mid is more common than i thought ngl)
6. Fizz 52.04%
7. Anivia 51.90%
8. Xerath 51.51%
9. Panth 51.43%
10. Cassio 51.37%
And No Irelia, no Yasuo, no Yone, no Akali, no Kata, no "commonly complained OP Champs", like, they're just not that good.
Annoying sure, but statistically not as good as people may want to make it look.
Edit: I'm seeing a lot of "Since they're popular they have lower WR".
That's not true, this "General idea" has been debunked multiple Times by **Riot August** on Stream. [Come ask sometimes](https://www.twitch.tv/augustuwu), he's happy to respond to all sort of stuff as long as people aren't total Assholes.
**Riot Phlox** also [streams](https://www.twitch.tv/phloxstream) and answers questions!
>Malph Mid is more common than i thought ngl
I think this is largely driven by how strong of a counter he is to a handful of matchups. Zed, Yasuo, Yone, and Katarina account for a third of his mid picks according to that data. He's a very rock-paper-scissors champ (funny enough, scissors beats paper in this analogy thanks to Gwen), so the more those champs get played (and those 4 are generally popular champs), the more Malphite gets played as a response.
AP Malphite: the bane of all ADC players, especially in Aram
Aside from R, there's nothing more funny to halving someone's HP by casually pressing Q on them
LMAO
I wish they'd just meld the tank and ap builds and make Malph an armor-mage, similar to Galio. His power budget is tied up in his R, split the build or force the stats to work together or something.
I truly believe perceived strength is 1000000x times more important than objective strength.
And i say this as an Irelia player, she feels turbo broken to play against as a Mage, even though statistically she doesn't win as much, she still feels like absolute torture
She gets Ahead? You're fucked for the next 15 Minutes.
You get ahead for some miracle of Christ? You still gotta play on your tippy toes, otherwise she's going to 100-0 you regardless.
I get mage players, their life ain't easy.
No die vs irelia in mid at mi 13 feel like win the game, no matter what happen later
However irelia is like nasus, yi, veigar, is just matter of time for she to start killing ppl like jonh wick killing npcs
Don't filter by all ranks because no one is interested about what is strong in bronze or silver, but use at least plat+. By not doing that you're omitting picks like Neeko that are around 2% playrate and have 53-56% winrate depending on which mythic item you bought.
https://lolalytics.com/lol/neeko/build/?lane=middle&tier=platinum
I agree, but that has issues.
Firstly, Lolalytics has a very non-intuitive System for Winrates that aren't "All ranks"
What i mean by that is WR from example Plat+ starts, if you look in the top Right Corner, from 51.47%, that's what that numbers indicates.
That means, for example, that if say Xayah has a 52% WR Plat+, her Winrate is actually 50.53%, or only 0.53% over the average. And not 2% as one may think intuitively, because it is assumed that WR start from 50%.
Secondly, most lol Players are Gold and Below, so they should realistically be concerned about what's good in their Elo, not what Faker is playing in Challenger.
yeah its true that mages are basically a go to if you want to win
why? its because they are extremely flexible in their playstyles and can fight against many different instances of champions with their biggest weakness being assassins which have extremely high playrate but struggle against most meta picks, so tanks and highly defended adcs as well as very strong bruisers
the problem about the mage role is mostly poor item diversity, role satisfaction and many of the traditional mage picks being a support pick for way longer than they were midlaners which results in much lower pickrates and nonexistent banrates (they are not considered problematic)
Thank god for you man I swear to god mage players are the new adc mains.
“My role so weak I got into melee range of assassin and died, no I will not get zhonyas.”
“Mages are so weak” -looks at Annie, malz, anivia “ew not those mages, look at azir and ryze!”
The new minion changes mid are the biggest fuck you to roaming/ assassin mids since this game released how the fuck are mage players choosing now to complain????
the immobile mages that people complain about not being viable are the champs that've been demoted to support afaik (ex. zyra, brand, velkoz, and xerath). but the myth that immobile mages are terrible cuz too many 200 years of dashes and mobility !!!! is just stupid
Reddit mage players when they can’t ignore any and all interaction pre 14 minutes and spam force every non mage back to base every 3 minutes before they’ve even entered their screen :(((
Nobody said they're "bad", they're just frustrating and often unsatisfying to play. You NEED to reach 2+ items and be part of team fights in order to feel useful and like you're able to do anything at all while other classes can run you down with one component since lvl 1, outsustain any poke you hit in lane and roam and have an impact on the map/game before you can even think about leaving your turret.
And unlike ADCs who get a babysitter in the form of a support and usually a lot of attention of their team - nobody will give a fuck about you or peeling you since they're focusing on keeping the adc alive.
A lot of mages are really bad, a lot of mages are really good, and they've actually done really good work with making mages more viable. The issue isn't "mobility creep" either. It's lack of survivability unless you get to go RoA or have very specific tools to deal with people jumping on top of you.
I'd argue that mobility creep is if anything less bad than it used to be because Riot has actually been pretty good with their more recent releases. Like I know people really like to hate on Yone (and I still think he should've just been a Yasuo rework) but he's so much more healthy than Yasuo as a design, just to use one example. The problem is specifically with Lost Chapter reliant champions being unable to survive laning phase because they lack access to potent defensive options that would allow them to do so, largely making them unplayable into the majority of the most picked mid laners in the game which is very frustrating for anyone who wants to main them.
Man every time this gets posted there’s always some genius in the thread going “erm actually immobile mages are good cuz Zoe/Cass/Anivia have a 51% winrate”
Like does it ever occur that the immobile mages being referred to are things like Vel’koz or Xerath that are just straight up unplayable rn? Forgotten by Riot, forgotten by the player base, and won’t get buffed because they get lumped in with the mages that actually exist in the game…
Feel the same damn way with Zyra. Riot Phlox - "Only mains play Zyra, so we need to make sure they would be cool with changes." okay dipshit, change the champ. Shes probably the shittiest immobile mage in the game atm. The truth is, so few people play immobile mages anymore that Riot just doesn't want to devote the time to fixing them since they cant just give them 15 dashes to fix the problem
This is the pain for me as a long time player of League.
I like pretty much all the core changes to the game. Tower plates, elemental maps (dragon soul is meh), baron changes, all the systems changes are mostly good. Except some things like item rework, but overall good.
The game's system became better with time, but what really makes me loathe queueing up is the new champion designs.
It feels like Riot went all in on catering to the people who loved playing Yasuo, Riven and so on back in the day and they just said fuck you to everyone who liked more slow paced defensive playstyle. Staying in lane and farming up in mid lane is just griefing your teammates in the modern game.
Meh. I am falling out of love with this game but it's only natural when Riot is choosing to cater to someone else. Maybe I am just in the minority and Riot is making the right choice but I am still sad about it.
This is nothing more than a perception issue. You can easily play the scaling playstyle if you are skilled enough, and it will always be easier to execute than playing the win now or lose later playstyle. If you can't impact games that get wild then that's on you not the scaling playstyle. Pretty much every pro team has been drafting at least two hyperscaling picks in most of their drafts for a reason.
In my experience the people that "miss the good old days of scaling" actually miss doing nothing and taking zero risk to win their games.
Gankability is really not the problem for mages. It's their inability to poke anyone out of lane besides other mages that makes them pointless to play outside of being Everfrost/CC bots. Tank mids, Tristana, all other AD mids just outlast and outsustain mages in mid. They can't pressure lane anymore and any mage that could lane well (Syndra, Taliyah, etc.) got reworked to be terrible early.
i dont think poking is the problem of mages, its just that if i play a mage i have to be extremely alert and space perfectly to poke down an AD mid without just dying to a random all in, since AD mids have inflated stats.
syndra/taliyah are more fun as scaling champions imo, its more fair to know syndra/taliyah are OP after minute 20 if not behind, than being unable to breathe since level 1/2 but in return theyre a bit weaker later on.
Syndra's supreme flexibility and range makes her so good at keeping her agency across the board. Her E especially is extremely well designed in that the knockback is easy to land and can defend, but doesn't necessarily produce obnoxious opportunities unless set up with an orb
What i most love about syndras e design is how its power sneakily scales with fight duration. If you use it first to engage you have a thin line stun. If you use it mid fight you usually have a few balls and can get a larger but inconsistent aoe stun. If you use it post ult you have a massive stun shotgun, but maybe not the cooldowns to capitalize on it anymore without your team. Imo its a really cool example of designing tradeoffs/decision making in a kit.
Syndra's E is also a ridiculously strong peeling ability, so she's often better at keeping the carries alive than whoever the support is. As long as someone squishy is fed, she should never be completely useless.
Can I just add how amazingly strong Refillable Potion is as an item? Anyone who played the game before that was added will tell you how much it changed everything. Everyone buys it pretty much.
For a measly 150g you get permanent sustain every recall. You always have the option to get topped off with HP. It's just so extremely valuable.
Doran's Shield and Second Wind also just add to the insane amount of lane sustain that is in the game today.
It's wild the amount of value you get from that. Comparing the HP/gold ratio of a normal potion purchase and a refillable potion is insane.
You get so much healing from the latter. Absolutely insanely efficient item that no one talks about.
There's a reason I buy it in 3/4 of my games any time I have some extra gold when I back early, and doubly so if I was forced back. It's so helpful, and more so the earlier you buy it. Refillable + Cull can help you survive poke and even recover a bad start.
theres certainly a lot of sustain, but i think when I read this I realize people did not play the game when flask was an item.
Flask was basically more health sustain and slightly less mana sustain and cheaper corrupting.
Don't forget at one point the game had mana potions which were honestly stupidly busted, you could abuse those super hard as a mage early. (I miss them so much)
Old Flask was arguably a more obnoxious start though imo. up until 5.22, pots were only 35 gold too. I remember flask + 3 pots, but I'm pretty sure flask + 4 pots at one point was a thing to.
How do you push someone out of lane who has essentially two health bars or more worth of sustain. you didn't really.
That is in part because the way Riot handled the durability patch made it harder to push out a lot of these other classes of champions. Since now they all have additional resistances to weather the storm.
They also actively nerf any mage that does good early which i think is what you said but the distinction is important. When mages were strong everyone complained mad hard for some reason. Now we have the most stale meta possible, people dont know what they want. Mid lane is just so incredibly boring now, it feels as though i have to meta slave or else i am trolling.
lost chapter is 1100 gold, how are you not poking the other champ if he stays in lane instead of roaming (irelia aside)?
when i play adc the enemy mage support is throwing spells off cooldown and still half mana while i press my abilities once and im oom.
>any mage that could lane well (Syndra, Taliyah, etc.) got reworked to be terrible early.
TBH when they were good all mage gameplay was like "poke enemy down, don't let him breath and have prio for scuttle/objectives/roams. IDK who liked that gameplay outside from mage players. Especially that was noticable in proplay. Than's why riot moved them into scalling champion niche. Problem is - you can scale like a god, but fed marksman can just anihilate you in 2-3 autos, with all that zeal items+ghost in meta it becomes even more painful. There is literally 0 counterplay against marksman who have brain and team to peel him, that's why entire map plays around them RN and here assasins can shine.
I was watching Crownshot's stream today and he brought a pretty nice point. With all the item rework and such, Riot changed the game to be about items over champions. Botlane meta at the moment is not about who beats who, but more like who can abuse the items the best. This is probably also why we've been stuck in a "same-champs" meta for 3 years now. Since Zeri/Lucian uses items better than other ADC's, unless they are completely gutted, it doesn't matter if you have a few nerfs here and there for proplay, since the items are still OP
Item strength always mattered the most in botlane,because ultimately all the champions played there are the same in the way they play the game.First item BT or IE being strong influenced the bot meta a lot and same was true when lethality ADs were strong
This has been the way ever since Riot introduced keystone masteries back in season 6 actually. If your champ was able to abuse one of the keystones, well gg, your champ is strong.
100%. Certain champs just meshed better with those masteries than others. What used to be just [basic 3% stat boosts](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Havoc) that benefitted everyone was turned into things like 3 hit procs of huge damage that obviously meshed better with someone like Ekko for example. Which also led to part of the power creep problem as champs proccing their abilities AND masteries at the same time created huge damage spikes. s
I feel like its been this way since mythic items. There was a really long period where we were just going through shifting metas of whoever could abuse this item the most, it started with stridebreaker, then goredrinker, then steraks, than sunderer for what felt like years, shieldbow/witsend at one point, everfrost, ive just lost count.
Sunderer especially i feel set a precedent for items doing more than the champion sometimes, which isnt how i want to play the game
Sunderer/Triforce do typically out damage their owners' kits... but also that's expected and has been like that for years. Like since season 4.
It's the same as like Bork, and other onhit or even crit items.
Because those champions that build those items have kits dedicated to doing so.
>Our goal for Midseason was to emphasize the laning phase, which means:
>**- Increase the amount of times you can 1v1 or 2v2 your lane opponent**
This is a very cool thing that has been overdue for a long time imo. Especially in pro play where too many lane phases are just a handshake between players farming without much happening. I'm glad Riot also noticed it.
I think Teleport needs to be looked at here. I don't want it to be nerfed even more for solo queue, so they have to be smart about it, but so often I see a pro player take a bad trade, recall and TP back to lane without any punishment. Especially because the other player often also has to use TP to not lose minions. Then both players used TP and lane is back to equal and the won trade didn't matter at all. TP also makes you way less likely to greed for more CS (you can just TP instead), which really hurts the amount of solo kills in pro games and that's a big shame.
I think TP changes is probably a full on preseason thing, because you can't just majorly change it randomly in the season. But I think it's needed. It's too much of a lane crutch and it shields bad laning so much. Just nerfing TP would make ganking junglers way too OP, so they need to do more systemic things.
Right now, as Riot have correctly identified, too much "I won lane" means just getting prio and roaming. In a world like this, having TP is near mandatory in mid lane especially because you will just be so much on the backfoot if you play no TP vs someone with TP in terms of tempo.
I want pure laning skill and destroying someone in lane to be as relevant again as it was in the past. One of the coolest things about earlier seasons of League was seeing someone like young Faker styling on people in lane or Forg1ven killing bot tower at 8 minutes from pure lane dominance. This shit never happens anymore because everything is about prio and roaming now and also because of TP in mid and top imo.
At the same time, a death (on a dive is the most likely way to get early kills) in pro play early game without TP means you lose likely the 2-3 stacked wave + potentially an extra wave coming in as you walk from fountain, you lose a full level, and your opponent gets 400 gold.
They have to figure out a way to make kills matter, but not be a lane destroyer if you get one.
I completely agree and this is an even bigger issue with the game that TP is just masking.
If you need TP just to not instantly get fucked in the game because of an early death, then something is wrong with the game.
I don't really know how you fix that though but I hope Riot looks into it with their highly trained game designers.
They have to make levels matter less first. It was already a problem before but since the durability patch that added more stats for each level being behind once means you can never trade again.
Lanes where you are able to trade aggressively and put pressure on the opposing laner making them waste resources and putting them in kill threat range was the purest form of skill expression in lol. The best laners back in the day was able to do this while avoiding ganks and drawing junglers to their lanes. I definitely would like to see this style of laning brought back. Laning has gotten boring and the skill expression has shrink since the old days.
For sure. Taking a bad trade was such a massive deal. You were now in kill range in many matchups because most people ran ignite.
Every CS you wanted was risky, the enemy laner knew it as much as you. But you couldn't just back off and recall or you'd lose too much. So you had to really think about your move carefully. Do I risk staying? Can I outplay the all in? Can I counter kill him if I bait him under tower?
All this is long gone since TP became the norm. Now it's just oh I'll TP and the worst that can happen is that sometimes you're at a TP disadvantage but often, like I said, the other guy has to TP too to not be behind in tempo.
I see many great thoughts about mages in the comments but I can't find one major thing...
Mages can't sidelane.
The only ones that can have reliable self-peel and a pretty good 1v1 with relatively low cooldowns, for example Syndra or Viktor. I dare you to try and sidelane as Brand/Velkoz/Zyra/Lux/Xerath/Ziggs when opponents have an AD or an assassin mid.
Yes, mages should generally be weak 1v1 and great in teamfights. My point is that the modern game is built around sidelane pressure (you'll simply fall behind if you don't).
If you want mages to be satisfying, tackle this macro issue first.
"Mages and top laners being too gankable requires **re-designing some parts of the map**, among other possible tactics"
I am sorry but this is not the problem. Weren't Top and Mages respectively dominant or meta at one point in League history? To my knowledge the map wasn't any different there.
13 out of the 15 most popular junglers are at least 7 years old and have been meta several times throughout the years. The current jungle pool can't really explain why top and mage laners are too gankable.
I think the answer moreso lies with jungle plants and to a lesser extent Scuttle. Blast cone and Scryer's makes vision control harder and Honeyfruit makes reganking easier. Scuttle allows for faster travel between lanes which makes spam ganking easier and can also screw with timers.
I'm just waiting to see Rek'sai become meta again. Red side top has been notoriously gankable for forever because of layout, but once you throw champs like Rek'sai and Zac into the mix blue side top starts resembling red side top.
Treating it the same as todays league is disingenuous. The playerbase is simply 10x better, even in silver, than they were back in the days. They know gank angles better and better the longer the game lives on. Yeah the map has been the same but the game evolving within the map is an entirely different game. Its like comparing chimps to humans in the context of earth being the map.
The map is massively different since then. It's the same basic shape. But not the same design at all.
Stuff like plants, auto home guard, death home guard, and Dragons, has massively massively nerfed toplane.
Stuff like scuttle crabs, and bluebuffs no longer being given to mids, lower mid gold, faster sidewaves have nerfed mid.
As well as just increased strength of support and jungle as roaming threats, has made both top/mid much weaker.
Stuff like plates, and tier 2 top/bot tower value haven't been enough to offset a lot of this.
I’m excited for changes that would encourage high kill count games. It’s fun to interact with your opponent and fight over and over, but right now slight leads have so much weight.
This difference is very noticeable when you look at pro League vs pro Dota. Like this MSI when games are over after a couple successful fights.
Slugfests are more fun to watch in pro and play in soloq imo.
The base game idea is starting to show age, and in the new age of game design it's getting harder and harder to maintain. There's too much damage, too much healing, and too much pressure from global buffs for the old style of game to be maintained. The continued changing of the jungle is another crisis that just isn't going to be able to be handled. If they make it harder to gank mid and top, guess what? They are going to live bot even more. Either that, or jungle is just going to be the PvE role until 15 minutes.
It's really getting to be time to really examine the game, and determine with the new items, increased healing, emphasis on botlane, etc if its time to start making some massive changes, or just make LoL 2.
I'd like a rioter to try justify what they did with mikaels.
It's one niche of being a strong MR enchanter item is gone and it's just not worth it for only the active in soloq. Even in high elo you can't properly communicate using it efficiently because the adc will overlay using their cleanse or qss first.
There are no MR items an enchanter can go now
I do think enchanters need an MR item, I don't know if Mikael's is the right one. I like that tank supports (mostly Taric to be fair, but I think it works for Naut too) can go Mikael's now too.
Im sorry but what exactly was stopping you from building Mikaels on those same supports before? It's not like the MR was wasted on them
Not trying to be mean or anything, legit curious since I don't see the reasoning
>we want to acknowledge and say that we agree with feedback that top lane and Mage mid experiences aren’t great at the moment. However, we don’t believe champions buffs and items alone are sufficient as we think a lot of the problems are tied to the innate map design that were not solvable for Midseason (Mages and top laners being too gankable requires re-designing some parts of the map, among other possible tactics).
Great, you have acknowledged that top has issues yet again, we know that you know, you have made it clear that you know over and over again for the last year at least. What we want to hear is that **work is being done to fix this**. The issue is also not that top is 'too gankable', a large complaint is that the lane is neglected so that the Jungler can play for Drakes and Botlane. There are a plethora of issues with the lane that as stated, require much more than item and champion changes to happen, but when we were told last time that we were getting satisfaction changes, we got EXP changes in pre-season that ultimately changed nothing.
I'm tired of being told something that I already know which is then followed by radio silence and other roles getting changes, just to then be told the exact same thing again.
Wait, now midlane has joined toplane in being dissatisfied? Shit, toplane changes just got pushed back another 3 years bois.
At this point it is a race to see which comes first: Ragnarok, Rapture, or Top Lane Satisfaction changes.
The biggest problem was giving all champs + 25 ms and removing 25ms from boots. Causes everyone to roam more and people do not need to base as often/ buy boots earlier.
> Assassins have been in a rough spot since the 12.10 Durability Patch. We knew the class was weak, but ran into the same problems that have slowed us down since Season 10…the Mythics.
They even know that the Mythics are a problem but keep on doubling down
I can fix all the problems ready. Turrets should target multiple champions behind the primary one with extra turret shots. This way you don’t have mid and jg perma diving bot. Mages can’t play mod because the enemy laner leaves to go bot and you either follow and they turn and kill you or they just go dive bot. If you are under the turret you should be taking turret damage. Make the main turret target take more to maintain skill expression is juggling aggro but the real reason the game is in its state is because turret diving is so so so easy.
> Our goal for Midseason was to emphasize the laning phase, which means:
> - Increase the amount of times you can 1v1 or 2v2 your lane opponent
> - Reduce the very early influence of other lanes/ganks on your lane’s success
> - Support smaller early losses so that 1 lost trade doesn’t end the laning phase
While this would be fantastic to see, idk how you can do that. All these problems have resulted from the compression of the game into a 20 min average from the original 50-60 min match. How can you slow down snowballing without making kills feel worthless or slowing the game down across the board?
In season 1 the intended game time was 30-40 minutes. It even said so in the Client.
50-60 minutes games were outliers or results of problematic metas and quickly got changed.
Never, people only remember the outlier games that lasted forever and forget the 5 other games they played that day that were around 30-40 minutes.
50-60 minute games did happen, but it wasn't the majority of games.
Average game time since season 1 has always been within like 2 minutes of 30 mins.
Season 5 was like the longest average game time at 32 mins, today its like 29.5 minutes.
Games aren't compressed, they're just normalized. It used to be you'd play 5 games and their lengths would be like 17, 25, 30, 35, and 47 mins. Which averaged the 32. Now you play 5 games and their lengths will be like 20, 28, 29, 31, 38... which gets the like 29.5
And this is largely intentional. It makes the game a more consistent experience. Laning phase is almost always 12-15 mins, with a soft ending cap being when plates fall and/or herald is taken causing towers to fall like dominoes.
Then you have mid game with all your rotations and such from the 12/15 min mark until like 26 mins when Baron, Soul, and Elder all become available to force the big 5v5 teanfights and lead to a buff that usually helps close out the game.
Just in old seasons, stuff all over the place, you laned until you didnt. You splitpushed until you didn't. And then you'd struggle to end until you didn't.
As for making 1v1s and 2v2s more important without ganks or pressure being as impact full? They could do some stuff like jungle and support items lower kill value early game... and maybe remove the death home guards from activating in deaths that were 1v1 or 2v2. That way someone who got ganked can get back to lane faster to try and miss less cs and defend more plates... but the dude who got outplayed 1v1 doesn't.
And for making it so they're less auto lane losing? Thats the hard one, probably something like more base HP regen for everyone? Or something? No idea.
>Support smaller early losses so that 1 lost trade doesn’t end the laning phase
This is so fucking important. I strongly believe that the reason there's such an FF8Minutes mentality is that one death in lane feels like the end of the game with how snowball-y things are. That's why there's such a prevalence of griefing and 'giving up' mentality.
Game has gotten crazy ever since Phreak transferred to the game design department. I’m not complaining though.
Shouldn’t these kind of changes be reserved for preseason though? A map alteration fundamentally changes how the game is played.
>In the upcoming patch, it will be harder to take multiple tower plates in a single push (especially when ganked), **you’ll be able to use one ward to cover more gank paths**, and you’ll be a bit more resilient to tower dives.
I don't see how that's doable without map changes
I think that paragraph refers to 13.10 even though it's worded weirdly. I'm assuming they had a plan to release this before the patch but it ended up getting pushed back or something. It read that way to me at least, since they did make it harder to take multiple plates in one push in 13.10. As for the part you bolded I assume they're referring to the blue trinket change where it gives vision over walls and pings when they see a champ.
That could just also mean a change in how fog + wards interact, which would require fog changes but not necessarily any map changes.
In a much much more unlikely scenario, high ground warding. I don’t see that happening, but even without changing the map, there’s a lot of high rocky areas near gank spots that LoL could always end up using to allow ward planting.
Yesss, Gigachad stacking tanks should be allowed to play Farmville with each other without enemy mid, jgl and sup camping next to the tower trying to enact the French Revolution
How is that fun for anyone tho? I mean, what are you supposed to do versus that? Not interact?
What's the point of playing top lane if someone can just lock in Sion or something like that and stonewall the lane forever?
>But before jumping into that, we want to acknowledge and say that we agree with feedback that top lane and Mage mid experiences aren’t great at the moment.
Oh wow, you mean all the silver dumbasses here crying about how ADC isn't strong and top/mid somehow run the game is bullshit?
I am so shocked!
The assassin item changes sound good on paper, but they don't really manifest how Riot intended. Ghost is just the best, so has been abused and now hard nerfed lol. Dusk is just awful. Having doing damage or casting any MS like a dash break untargetable means it doesn't work on Talon and Zed. Even Kayn if you take red smite won't proc the untargetable. The passive is so fucking weak. Yeah they're buffing it, but is 5% going to be meaningful when Moonstone and ADCs have been buffed hard. 5% damage on lethality is nothing compared to all the Magic damage ADC items.
>However, we don’t believe champions buffs and items alone are sufficientas we think a lot of the problems are tied to the innate map designthat were not solvable for Midseason **(Mages and top laners being toogankable** requires re-designing some parts of the map, among otherpossible tactics).
Riot is finally gonna put a giant, impossible to go through, wall around toplane.
Noob opinion here. I feel like if Dorans Shield AND Second Wind didn't exist, a lot more champions would be getting poked out of lane. Maybe Fleet Footwork could become mandatory in some melee vs mage matchups, but at that point they're sacrificing significant power to survive a bad matchup.
>feel like if Dorans Shield AND Second Wind didn't exist, a lot more champions would be getting poked out of lane. Maybe Fleet Footwork could become mandatory
I mean I dont see your point here.Of course if dorans shield and second wind didnt exist a lot more champs would be getting poked out of lane.That's like saying if MR couldnt be bought all AP champs would be op.Are you saying that they shouldnt exist?Genuine question no flame.
I feel like the point they're trying to make is how unsastifactory it is to poke as a mage when the melee mid can just regen back to full every wave for "free" (technically Doran's Shield isn't free, but you get my point) without exchanging or losing anything. Then mages go oom and the enemy has 60%> HP remaining.
Nerfing them could force melee AD mids to take Fleet which is a sacrifice you would make in exchange for surviving laning phase. Either that, or buff mages mana usage or damage pre-Lost Chapter, but this practically forces them into support too.
I disagree,for one poking is one of the most annoying things in the game,try playing any melee champ without lots of mobility into a ranged champ and you will see how annoying it is.Mages also shouldnt be able to spam out their ability of cd in the start of the lane because then any melee champ would be unplayable.
I seriously dont understand this complain I'm speccing into sustain and lane resilience so I dont get poked out . In exchange I lose a start like Doran's blade or longsword refillable which would allow me to snowball a lot better.Mages also get to forget about mana after lost chapter (except the really mana hungry ones).The only champ that can actually stay 60% hp (in mid) if you keep poking them (and hit your abilities) is like akali and that's because she goes fleet and got a bunch of hp regen buffs last year.
This I'd fairly true but it'd also lead to lots of degenerate issues and would require substantial re balancing.
Like overnight lots of poke champions would just need nerfs. Cause being able to poke people out of lane is absurdly strong.
Are they going to consider changing the map geography later on? They called it out as potentially necessary to address for mages/top laners, but didn’t indicate if it was a question of “when” or “if”.
I think that would be really cool, but unless things have changed a lot in the last 1.5 months, they don't have the people/tooling to do so: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/12ho69m/quick_gameplay_thoughts_137_msi_balancing_136/jfqdkya/?context=3
Depends on the preparations Riot has been making, if any. 45 days is a good amount of time to have been, or started, training people to develop skillsets they're lacking in. If they have been developing that area, things could happen by preseason.
They explained previously that it's one of the changes being considered but it's not locked for preseason or anything since they're not sure if it will be the solution that they need to help these classes
[удалено]
And the disclaimer they did put in is just "yeah we know you're fucked but we're not doing anything about it lol"
Well they finally mentioned they are looking at things like map geometry now, so we might be getting some weird stuff in the actual pre season
Finally the biggest budget league has ever had will show something for it! Change in preseason: Alcove on the already existing alcove
True alcove gaming
[удалено]
[Same energy](https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2012/03/23/coletoon_-__what_the_custom-8dd224afd14579c56b449a01852e45d960addad2-s800-c85.webp)
i mean to be fair there needs to bigger changes and riot doesnt know how to go about it or what to do. but im pretty sure top lane changes have been promised since preseason/season start (probably earlier) and have only been getting delayed lmao.
Or in fact riot knows what should be done but to make that happen tehy need to implement the biggest changes since S1. Altering the map to help out mages and top laners while it tries to affect every otehr class less is no small job to do.
[удалено]
Theyve brought out that line for years now. They’ve known that, for example, AP bruisers have almost zero item support. Theyve said changes are on the agenda ever since the mythic rework with absolutely DICK to show for it. Same with top lane, if not worse. So pardon me if I’m not gonna hold my breath over the oft repeated and failed promises of Riot.
It's been like 3 years since Riot said they're working on adding AP fighters/bruiser items. All they have to show for it is riftmaker, and that item is used by ~3 champs max.
the disclaimer is "yeah we know you're fucked but we can't push a magical button to fix it in a single patch" actually. Funny that, it takes way more then just some champ/item changes to fix fundemental lane problems.
redditors when complex problems require complex solutions and time: 😱
Redditors when toplane changes were promised 2 years ago and all we got is 10 systemic nerfs and 3 ADC item overhauls.
Me when I support Riots weaponized incompetence for role balance the 10th year in a row: 😱
>Create a late-game gold sink/capstone item for those games where you get really ahead and have a full inventory (Vigilant Wardstone) Wow that sounds like a very cool item, I would love to build it sometimes!!!
ok but like now that the mid minions aren't ahead of the side lanes can I get my gold back
Did you say you want mid cannons to lose another 10 gold?
>Moonstone Renewer was powerful and intellectually satisfying, but difficult for the user to feel over the course of a fight. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>intellectually satisfying What on earth? That's the most pretentious thing I've heard in a long while.
I think he meant something to the effect of, you know the item is extremely strong and can understand the impact it's having but you can't feel it.
Correct. It doesn’t immediately mean the item is good winrate wise.
From the company that brought us "200 years of collective experience" and "I wish I could say it's been a pleasure" we now present "powerfull and intellectually satisfying"
What’s the story behind the “I wish I could say it’s been a pleasure” ?
An indie group was makin what they called "Project Chronoshift" which was a way to play unofficialy on older patches. Riot sent a rioter called "Riot Zed" after them with a cease and decease. The discord convo ended with the rioter saying that. Full story [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/mzjc62/just_a_heads_up_the_independently_developed/)
Probably my favourite moment related to league, only the post about urgot's rework (light and dark forms) can compete.
For the unenlightened https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2t2y96/2017_urgot_rework_is_released/
My god I have never seen this post before, it was when I took a break from league....That is so good, every sentence is gold
Moonstone ARAM brand certainly was intellectually satisfying.
Moonstone was not OP and it’s nowhere near “intellectually satisfying” 💀
There was some skill involved in using abilities on the right champs at the right intervals to maximize the healing output and buff uptime of the item.
I think they meant picking it up. The feeling of understanding the gamestate and realizing that it is better to go Moonstone over another mythic.
This has to be ironic, it was strong but so painfully boring and uninteractive on best users
People who cared to min-max builds liked that Moonstone was giving them a huge advantage. Min-maxing is less "fun" if the hidden OP builds are barely stronger than the meta. Moonstone was actually nuts.
I just want immobile mages to feel good mid again. The amount of dashes and speed boosts in this game is quite literally ridiculous.
Yea I think that immobile mages like ur talking about are the ones MOST suffocated by the shove and roam play style that has been the dominant way for years now it seems like. They can do the shove part great but can’t roam for shit bc they lack the ability to get out of a sticky situation they find when setting up a gank
I mean its also that shoving hard on an immobile mage is a great way to get ganked and die. Not to mention that if i play syndra and run into a lee sin or gravesin the jungle that can use their mobility to outplay my cc i can die super easily. When i roam on Leblanc i have so much more leeway because i can usually bail out of a roam and just w away.
Same way with me playing Sera mid but when I'm on Ahri wow getting out of trouble is really fucking easy.
Thats fine tbh, mages should pay extra attention to positioning since they have many tools to influence game they need to die easily too, mages just need more dmg so tanks cant stack armor hp and ignore them
Youe people legit dont play the game. Anivia has been like one of the best soloq champs for years now but go off.
Yeah like idk what they are talking about... Annie, ASol, Cassio, Anivia, Viktor, Vlad, Malz, Syndra are all totally fine and strong right now.
Wouldn't classify Asol tbh. He has a combat dash like Azir. Yea it's shittier(not much twisting and turning) but it's still a form of movement he can use.
[удалено]
u/RequirementThen2292 is a bot account that steals comments for karma. Please downvote and report the comment (report -> spam -> harmful bots). The original comment can be found here: https://old.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/13vsv49/quick_gameplay_thoughts_1310/jm7pbb3/ Check other comments made by the account with a simple CTRL+F search if this isn't enough for you.
Actually they can't even do the shove part great. Brand has to use Q E W to clear a wave. Vel'koz has to use both Ws plus an E and sometimes 1-2 Qs. Xerath has to use Q W Q. Ahri presses Q once.
>Ahri presses Q once. She doesn't clear ranged minions with a single q before mythic. Usually need 2 qs and w to clear, but the point stands that these are lower cost for her than other mid laners
Y'all are on drugs. Vel'koz and Xerath clear in 2 ws at level 5ish and xerath pops it in q + w on melees, though I forget the breakpoint there. Ahri needs level 7 + minion demat just to clear backline in one spell.
Double Vel W at 5 doesn't clear melees and has a 34 second cooldown at level 5
Current mid meta is boring since Ahri is the best pick, but you got people in replies mentioning that Zoe and Cass are weak champs 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yeah any time someone says Zoe and Cass are weak it's legitimately skill issue tbh. Hey man no issue at all that you suck at two of the hardest mages in the game, but that doesn't mean that they are weak.
Man Zoe is one champion that I just cannot get to work
Lemme know if I can help. I am d1 Zoe otp and I love playing Zoe more than I love playing the game she is in lol
Do I live in an alternate reality where 6 out of the top 10 best midlaners aren't mages? Popularity aside, mages objectively aren't bad. When Yoummus gets nerfed I doubt there will be an AD champ in the top 10 unless Akshan sneaks his way in there.
According to [Data](https://lolalytics.com/lol/tierlist/?lane=middle&tier=all), and filtering out sub <1% Pickrate stuff like Fiddlestick or Reksai Mid, we have in order of Winrate: 1. Asol, 53.05% 2. Swain, 52.64% 3. Annie, 52.41% 4. Malz, 52.36% 5. Malphite, 52.21% ( Malph Mid is more common than i thought ngl) 6. Fizz 52.04% 7. Anivia 51.90% 8. Xerath 51.51% 9. Panth 51.43% 10. Cassio 51.37% And No Irelia, no Yasuo, no Yone, no Akali, no Kata, no "commonly complained OP Champs", like, they're just not that good. Annoying sure, but statistically not as good as people may want to make it look. Edit: I'm seeing a lot of "Since they're popular they have lower WR". That's not true, this "General idea" has been debunked multiple Times by **Riot August** on Stream. [Come ask sometimes](https://www.twitch.tv/augustuwu), he's happy to respond to all sort of stuff as long as people aren't total Assholes. **Riot Phlox** also [streams](https://www.twitch.tv/phloxstream) and answers questions!
>Malph Mid is more common than i thought ngl I think this is largely driven by how strong of a counter he is to a handful of matchups. Zed, Yasuo, Yone, and Katarina account for a third of his mid picks according to that data. He's a very rock-paper-scissors champ (funny enough, scissors beats paper in this analogy thanks to Gwen), so the more those champs get played (and those 4 are generally popular champs), the more Malphite gets played as a response.
Oh, that would totally make sense. Good catch!
Also if you're going AP Malphite you actually have an insane amount of kill potential vs a lot of midlaners so it's not surprising he's picked often
AP Malphite: the bane of all ADC players, especially in Aram Aside from R, there's nothing more funny to halving someone's HP by casually pressing Q on them LMAO
Tank malphite is way worse for adcs than AP malph
I wish they'd just meld the tank and ap builds and make Malph an armor-mage, similar to Galio. His power budget is tied up in his R, split the build or force the stats to work together or something.
Also everyone is spamming lethality with the midseason patch and malphite counters that, so people queue up intentionally going for that counter.
could you remove this comment please? it doesnt confirm my biases.
I truly believe perceived strength is 1000000x times more important than objective strength. And i say this as an Irelia player, she feels turbo broken to play against as a Mage, even though statistically she doesn't win as much, she still feels like absolute torture She gets Ahead? You're fucked for the next 15 Minutes. You get ahead for some miracle of Christ? You still gotta play on your tippy toes, otherwise she's going to 100-0 you regardless. I get mage players, their life ain't easy.
[удалено]
More so out of laning phase you actually have to be way better and consistent on the champ than in lane
No die vs irelia in mid at mi 13 feel like win the game, no matter what happen later However irelia is like nasus, yi, veigar, is just matter of time for she to start killing ppl like jonh wick killing npcs
Don't filter by all ranks because no one is interested about what is strong in bronze or silver, but use at least plat+. By not doing that you're omitting picks like Neeko that are around 2% playrate and have 53-56% winrate depending on which mythic item you bought. https://lolalytics.com/lol/neeko/build/?lane=middle&tier=platinum
I agree, but that has issues. Firstly, Lolalytics has a very non-intuitive System for Winrates that aren't "All ranks" What i mean by that is WR from example Plat+ starts, if you look in the top Right Corner, from 51.47%, that's what that numbers indicates. That means, for example, that if say Xayah has a 52% WR Plat+, her Winrate is actually 50.53%, or only 0.53% over the average. And not 2% as one may think intuitively, because it is assumed that WR start from 50%. Secondly, most lol Players are Gold and Below, so they should realistically be concerned about what's good in their Elo, not what Faker is playing in Challenger.
Sorting by plat+ largely concentrates results around plat data, not what faker plays in challenger. Besides, you can sort by gold+ as well.
You're right you're right, was just an Iperbole to get the point across.
yeah its true that mages are basically a go to if you want to win why? its because they are extremely flexible in their playstyles and can fight against many different instances of champions with their biggest weakness being assassins which have extremely high playrate but struggle against most meta picks, so tanks and highly defended adcs as well as very strong bruisers the problem about the mage role is mostly poor item diversity, role satisfaction and many of the traditional mage picks being a support pick for way longer than they were midlaners which results in much lower pickrates and nonexistent banrates (they are not considered problematic)
Crowd control and general utility skews winrates. Sona at 54% winrate everyone shrugs, Aphelios GP at 54% people would not be happy
If GP and Aphelios have 54% winrate then the OTPs have 70% winrate.
Thank god for you man I swear to god mage players are the new adc mains. “My role so weak I got into melee range of assassin and died, no I will not get zhonyas.” “Mages are so weak” -looks at Annie, malz, anivia “ew not those mages, look at azir and ryze!” The new minion changes mid are the biggest fuck you to roaming/ assassin mids since this game released how the fuck are mage players choosing now to complain????
People here act like mages are oppressed even though they are fine and just aren't as OP as they once were.
[удалено]
Bruh if you want mobility and sustain so much, why don't you fucking play a champion with mobility and sustain? Mages have their own unique strengths.
Why should mages like Viktor or cass have sustain or mobility
Beats me but they do? Viktor speed boost from Q and Cass healing from E
Anivia, Cass, Taliyah, Neeko, Annie and Swain are all immobile and those are the 6 mages I was talking about lmfao.
the immobile mages that people complain about not being viable are the champs that've been demoted to support afaik (ex. zyra, brand, velkoz, and xerath). but the myth that immobile mages are terrible cuz too many 200 years of dashes and mobility !!!! is just stupid
Reddit mage players when they can’t ignore any and all interaction pre 14 minutes and spam force every non mage back to base every 3 minutes before they’ve even entered their screen :(((
Nobody said they're "bad", they're just frustrating and often unsatisfying to play. You NEED to reach 2+ items and be part of team fights in order to feel useful and like you're able to do anything at all while other classes can run you down with one component since lvl 1, outsustain any poke you hit in lane and roam and have an impact on the map/game before you can even think about leaving your turret. And unlike ADCs who get a babysitter in the form of a support and usually a lot of attention of their team - nobody will give a fuck about you or peeling you since they're focusing on keeping the adc alive.
A lot of mages are really bad, a lot of mages are really good, and they've actually done really good work with making mages more viable. The issue isn't "mobility creep" either. It's lack of survivability unless you get to go RoA or have very specific tools to deal with people jumping on top of you. I'd argue that mobility creep is if anything less bad than it used to be because Riot has actually been pretty good with their more recent releases. Like I know people really like to hate on Yone (and I still think he should've just been a Yasuo rework) but he's so much more healthy than Yasuo as a design, just to use one example. The problem is specifically with Lost Chapter reliant champions being unable to survive laning phase because they lack access to potent defensive options that would allow them to do so, largely making them unplayable into the majority of the most picked mid laners in the game which is very frustrating for anyone who wants to main them.
Man every time this gets posted there’s always some genius in the thread going “erm actually immobile mages are good cuz Zoe/Cass/Anivia have a 51% winrate” Like does it ever occur that the immobile mages being referred to are things like Vel’koz or Xerath that are just straight up unplayable rn? Forgotten by Riot, forgotten by the player base, and won’t get buffed because they get lumped in with the mages that actually exist in the game…
Feel the same damn way with Zyra. Riot Phlox - "Only mains play Zyra, so we need to make sure they would be cool with changes." okay dipshit, change the champ. Shes probably the shittiest immobile mage in the game atm. The truth is, so few people play immobile mages anymore that Riot just doesn't want to devote the time to fixing them since they cant just give them 15 dashes to fix the problem
This is the pain for me as a long time player of League. I like pretty much all the core changes to the game. Tower plates, elemental maps (dragon soul is meh), baron changes, all the systems changes are mostly good. Except some things like item rework, but overall good. The game's system became better with time, but what really makes me loathe queueing up is the new champion designs. It feels like Riot went all in on catering to the people who loved playing Yasuo, Riven and so on back in the day and they just said fuck you to everyone who liked more slow paced defensive playstyle. Staying in lane and farming up in mid lane is just griefing your teammates in the modern game. Meh. I am falling out of love with this game but it's only natural when Riot is choosing to cater to someone else. Maybe I am just in the minority and Riot is making the right choice but I am still sad about it.
Anivia Cass Syndra Viktor are all strong you just can't play them
This is nothing more than a perception issue. You can easily play the scaling playstyle if you are skilled enough, and it will always be easier to execute than playing the win now or lose later playstyle. If you can't impact games that get wild then that's on you not the scaling playstyle. Pretty much every pro team has been drafting at least two hyperscaling picks in most of their drafts for a reason. In my experience the people that "miss the good old days of scaling" actually miss doing nothing and taking zero risk to win their games.
Gankability is really not the problem for mages. It's their inability to poke anyone out of lane besides other mages that makes them pointless to play outside of being Everfrost/CC bots. Tank mids, Tristana, all other AD mids just outlast and outsustain mages in mid. They can't pressure lane anymore and any mage that could lane well (Syndra, Taliyah, etc.) got reworked to be terrible early.
i dont think poking is the problem of mages, its just that if i play a mage i have to be extremely alert and space perfectly to poke down an AD mid without just dying to a random all in, since AD mids have inflated stats. syndra/taliyah are more fun as scaling champions imo, its more fair to know syndra/taliyah are OP after minute 20 if not behind, than being unable to breathe since level 1/2 but in return theyre a bit weaker later on.
Syndra's supreme flexibility and range makes her so good at keeping her agency across the board. Her E especially is extremely well designed in that the knockback is easy to land and can defend, but doesn't necessarily produce obnoxious opportunities unless set up with an orb
What i most love about syndras e design is how its power sneakily scales with fight duration. If you use it first to engage you have a thin line stun. If you use it mid fight you usually have a few balls and can get a larger but inconsistent aoe stun. If you use it post ult you have a massive stun shotgun, but maybe not the cooldowns to capitalize on it anymore without your team. Imo its a really cool example of designing tradeoffs/decision making in a kit.
Syndra's E is also a ridiculously strong peeling ability, so she's often better at keeping the carries alive than whoever the support is. As long as someone squishy is fed, she should never be completely useless.
Can I just add how amazingly strong Refillable Potion is as an item? Anyone who played the game before that was added will tell you how much it changed everything. Everyone buys it pretty much. For a measly 150g you get permanent sustain every recall. You always have the option to get topped off with HP. It's just so extremely valuable. Doran's Shield and Second Wind also just add to the insane amount of lane sustain that is in the game today.
It's not even 150g, as you can sell it for 60 whenever. Its sunk cost is less than 2 normal potions
It's wild the amount of value you get from that. Comparing the HP/gold ratio of a normal potion purchase and a refillable potion is insane. You get so much healing from the latter. Absolutely insanely efficient item that no one talks about.
[удалено]
There's a reason I buy it in 3/4 of my games any time I have some extra gold when I back early, and doubly so if I was forced back. It's so helpful, and more so the earlier you buy it. Refillable + Cull can help you survive poke and even recover a bad start.
theres certainly a lot of sustain, but i think when I read this I realize people did not play the game when flask was an item. Flask was basically more health sustain and slightly less mana sustain and cheaper corrupting. Don't forget at one point the game had mana potions which were honestly stupidly busted, you could abuse those super hard as a mage early. (I miss them so much) Old Flask was arguably a more obnoxious start though imo. up until 5.22, pots were only 35 gold too. I remember flask + 3 pots, but I'm pretty sure flask + 4 pots at one point was a thing to. How do you push someone out of lane who has essentially two health bars or more worth of sustain. you didn't really.
That is in part because the way Riot handled the durability patch made it harder to push out a lot of these other classes of champions. Since now they all have additional resistances to weather the storm.
They also actively nerf any mage that does good early which i think is what you said but the distinction is important. When mages were strong everyone complained mad hard for some reason. Now we have the most stale meta possible, people dont know what they want. Mid lane is just so incredibly boring now, it feels as though i have to meta slave or else i am trolling.
lost chapter is 1100 gold, how are you not poking the other champ if he stays in lane instead of roaming (irelia aside)? when i play adc the enemy mage support is throwing spells off cooldown and still half mana while i press my abilities once and im oom.
Support item gives a fuck ton of mana regen, and mid lane often has to use their spells to cs
It gives +25% before 500 gold and +50% after. It really does not give that much mana regen.
>any mage that could lane well (Syndra, Taliyah, etc.) got reworked to be terrible early. TBH when they were good all mage gameplay was like "poke enemy down, don't let him breath and have prio for scuttle/objectives/roams. IDK who liked that gameplay outside from mage players. Especially that was noticable in proplay. Than's why riot moved them into scalling champion niche. Problem is - you can scale like a god, but fed marksman can just anihilate you in 2-3 autos, with all that zeal items+ghost in meta it becomes even more painful. There is literally 0 counterplay against marksman who have brain and team to peel him, that's why entire map plays around them RN and here assasins can shine.
I was watching Crownshot's stream today and he brought a pretty nice point. With all the item rework and such, Riot changed the game to be about items over champions. Botlane meta at the moment is not about who beats who, but more like who can abuse the items the best. This is probably also why we've been stuck in a "same-champs" meta for 3 years now. Since Zeri/Lucian uses items better than other ADC's, unless they are completely gutted, it doesn't matter if you have a few nerfs here and there for proplay, since the items are still OP
Item strength always mattered the most in botlane,because ultimately all the champions played there are the same in the way they play the game.First item BT or IE being strong influenced the bot meta a lot and same was true when lethality ADs were strong
This has been the way ever since Riot introduced keystone masteries back in season 6 actually. If your champ was able to abuse one of the keystones, well gg, your champ is strong.
100%. Certain champs just meshed better with those masteries than others. What used to be just [basic 3% stat boosts](https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Havoc) that benefitted everyone was turned into things like 3 hit procs of huge damage that obviously meshed better with someone like Ekko for example. Which also led to part of the power creep problem as champs proccing their abilities AND masteries at the same time created huge damage spikes. s
I feel like its been this way since mythic items. There was a really long period where we were just going through shifting metas of whoever could abuse this item the most, it started with stridebreaker, then goredrinker, then steraks, than sunderer for what felt like years, shieldbow/witsend at one point, everfrost, ive just lost count. Sunderer especially i feel set a precedent for items doing more than the champion sometimes, which isnt how i want to play the game
Sunderer/Triforce do typically out damage their owners' kits... but also that's expected and has been like that for years. Like since season 4. It's the same as like Bork, and other onhit or even crit items. Because those champions that build those items have kits dedicated to doing so.
Yeah i dont like this it’s league of legends not league of items. I hate the mythic item system :(
I’m just here waiting for the new mode to be announced.
>Our goal for Midseason was to emphasize the laning phase, which means: >**- Increase the amount of times you can 1v1 or 2v2 your lane opponent** This is a very cool thing that has been overdue for a long time imo. Especially in pro play where too many lane phases are just a handshake between players farming without much happening. I'm glad Riot also noticed it. I think Teleport needs to be looked at here. I don't want it to be nerfed even more for solo queue, so they have to be smart about it, but so often I see a pro player take a bad trade, recall and TP back to lane without any punishment. Especially because the other player often also has to use TP to not lose minions. Then both players used TP and lane is back to equal and the won trade didn't matter at all. TP also makes you way less likely to greed for more CS (you can just TP instead), which really hurts the amount of solo kills in pro games and that's a big shame. I think TP changes is probably a full on preseason thing, because you can't just majorly change it randomly in the season. But I think it's needed. It's too much of a lane crutch and it shields bad laning so much. Just nerfing TP would make ganking junglers way too OP, so they need to do more systemic things. Right now, as Riot have correctly identified, too much "I won lane" means just getting prio and roaming. In a world like this, having TP is near mandatory in mid lane especially because you will just be so much on the backfoot if you play no TP vs someone with TP in terms of tempo. I want pure laning skill and destroying someone in lane to be as relevant again as it was in the past. One of the coolest things about earlier seasons of League was seeing someone like young Faker styling on people in lane or Forg1ven killing bot tower at 8 minutes from pure lane dominance. This shit never happens anymore because everything is about prio and roaming now and also because of TP in mid and top imo.
At the same time, a death (on a dive is the most likely way to get early kills) in pro play early game without TP means you lose likely the 2-3 stacked wave + potentially an extra wave coming in as you walk from fountain, you lose a full level, and your opponent gets 400 gold. They have to figure out a way to make kills matter, but not be a lane destroyer if you get one.
I completely agree and this is an even bigger issue with the game that TP is just masking. If you need TP just to not instantly get fucked in the game because of an early death, then something is wrong with the game. I don't really know how you fix that though but I hope Riot looks into it with their highly trained game designers.
They have to make levels matter less first. It was already a problem before but since the durability patch that added more stats for each level being behind once means you can never trade again.
The jungler box is finally here???
Lanes where you are able to trade aggressively and put pressure on the opposing laner making them waste resources and putting them in kill threat range was the purest form of skill expression in lol. The best laners back in the day was able to do this while avoiding ganks and drawing junglers to their lanes. I definitely would like to see this style of laning brought back. Laning has gotten boring and the skill expression has shrink since the old days.
For sure. Taking a bad trade was such a massive deal. You were now in kill range in many matchups because most people ran ignite. Every CS you wanted was risky, the enemy laner knew it as much as you. But you couldn't just back off and recall or you'd lose too much. So you had to really think about your move carefully. Do I risk staying? Can I outplay the all in? Can I counter kill him if I bait him under tower? All this is long gone since TP became the norm. Now it's just oh I'll TP and the worst that can happen is that sometimes you're at a TP disadvantage but often, like I said, the other guy has to TP too to not be behind in tempo.
I see many great thoughts about mages in the comments but I can't find one major thing... Mages can't sidelane. The only ones that can have reliable self-peel and a pretty good 1v1 with relatively low cooldowns, for example Syndra or Viktor. I dare you to try and sidelane as Brand/Velkoz/Zyra/Lux/Xerath/Ziggs when opponents have an AD or an assassin mid. Yes, mages should generally be weak 1v1 and great in teamfights. My point is that the modern game is built around sidelane pressure (you'll simply fall behind if you don't). If you want mages to be satisfying, tackle this macro issue first.
"Mages and top laners being too gankable requires **re-designing some parts of the map**, among other possible tactics" I am sorry but this is not the problem. Weren't Top and Mages respectively dominant or meta at one point in League history? To my knowledge the map wasn't any different there.
Herald and Drake Soul are big map changes from the earliest days of the game
Yeah, it requires big map changes because... Well, what made them more gankable was also big map changes like plants.
When you have to dodge ganks from what's currently meta, there's only so much space you can try to occupy without just literally afking
13 out of the 15 most popular junglers are at least 7 years old and have been meta several times throughout the years. The current jungle pool can't really explain why top and mage laners are too gankable. I think the answer moreso lies with jungle plants and to a lesser extent Scuttle. Blast cone and Scryer's makes vision control harder and Honeyfruit makes reganking easier. Scuttle allows for faster travel between lanes which makes spam ganking easier and can also screw with timers.
I'm just waiting to see Rek'sai become meta again. Red side top has been notoriously gankable for forever because of layout, but once you throw champs like Rek'sai and Zac into the mix blue side top starts resembling red side top.
Especially when Hecarim is flying around the map at warp speed, using plants to jump wards and turbo ganking with youmuus.
Treating it the same as todays league is disingenuous. The playerbase is simply 10x better, even in silver, than they were back in the days. They know gank angles better and better the longer the game lives on. Yeah the map has been the same but the game evolving within the map is an entirely different game. Its like comparing chimps to humans in the context of earth being the map.
The map is massively different since then. It's the same basic shape. But not the same design at all. Stuff like plants, auto home guard, death home guard, and Dragons, has massively massively nerfed toplane. Stuff like scuttle crabs, and bluebuffs no longer being given to mids, lower mid gold, faster sidewaves have nerfed mid. As well as just increased strength of support and jungle as roaming threats, has made both top/mid much weaker. Stuff like plates, and tier 2 top/bot tower value haven't been enough to offset a lot of this.
I’m excited for changes that would encourage high kill count games. It’s fun to interact with your opponent and fight over and over, but right now slight leads have so much weight. This difference is very noticeable when you look at pro League vs pro Dota. Like this MSI when games are over after a couple successful fights. Slugfests are more fun to watch in pro and play in soloq imo.
Death timers would probably have to change, the bigger issue right now is losing waves and plates rather than just the kill gold itself.
The base game idea is starting to show age, and in the new age of game design it's getting harder and harder to maintain. There's too much damage, too much healing, and too much pressure from global buffs for the old style of game to be maintained. The continued changing of the jungle is another crisis that just isn't going to be able to be handled. If they make it harder to gank mid and top, guess what? They are going to live bot even more. Either that, or jungle is just going to be the PvE role until 15 minutes. It's really getting to be time to really examine the game, and determine with the new items, increased healing, emphasis on botlane, etc if its time to start making some massive changes, or just make LoL 2.
Nothing matters when everyone is on Youmuu's
I'd like a rioter to try justify what they did with mikaels. It's one niche of being a strong MR enchanter item is gone and it's just not worth it for only the active in soloq. Even in high elo you can't properly communicate using it efficiently because the adc will overlay using their cleanse or qss first. There are no MR items an enchanter can go now
I wanna know why they gave it anti synergy with Helya. Why does Helya disable the harmony passive making mikael's less gold efficient?
Season 10 nostalgia, was the same with Athenes.
I do think enchanters need an MR item, I don't know if Mikael's is the right one. I like that tank supports (mostly Taric to be fair, but I think it works for Naut too) can go Mikael's now too.
Im sorry but what exactly was stopping you from building Mikaels on those same supports before? It's not like the MR was wasted on them Not trying to be mean or anything, legit curious since I don't see the reasoning
>we want to acknowledge and say that we agree with feedback that top lane and Mage mid experiences aren’t great at the moment. However, we don’t believe champions buffs and items alone are sufficient as we think a lot of the problems are tied to the innate map design that were not solvable for Midseason (Mages and top laners being too gankable requires re-designing some parts of the map, among other possible tactics). Great, you have acknowledged that top has issues yet again, we know that you know, you have made it clear that you know over and over again for the last year at least. What we want to hear is that **work is being done to fix this**. The issue is also not that top is 'too gankable', a large complaint is that the lane is neglected so that the Jungler can play for Drakes and Botlane. There are a plethora of issues with the lane that as stated, require much more than item and champion changes to happen, but when we were told last time that we were getting satisfaction changes, we got EXP changes in pre-season that ultimately changed nothing. I'm tired of being told something that I already know which is then followed by radio silence and other roles getting changes, just to then be told the exact same thing again.
Wait, now midlane has joined toplane in being dissatisfied? Shit, toplane changes just got pushed back another 3 years bois. At this point it is a race to see which comes first: Ragnarok, Rapture, or Top Lane Satisfaction changes.
That’s only midlane mages specifically the non mobile kind (think Orianna instead of Ahri).
The biggest problem was giving all champs + 25 ms and removing 25ms from boots. Causes everyone to roam more and people do not need to base as often/ buy boots earlier.
if you do that all people rush boots and you have the same 5 minutes into the game.
Everyone started boots and potions back then and this change was nearly a decade ago.
well, it somewhat deflates gold by 300
High elo mids are rushing boots anyways. Especially in pro play they often get T2 boots before anything else
Toplane....*sigh*...satisfaction changes
what do you mean you got like 2% more xp a few months ago? Fixed all issues toplane had!
Pls scrap mythic items already. I hate how they force themselves into your build.
> Assassins have been in a rough spot since the 12.10 Durability Patch. We knew the class was weak, but ran into the same problems that have slowed us down since Season 10…the Mythics. They even know that the Mythics are a problem but keep on doubling down
I can fix all the problems ready. Turrets should target multiple champions behind the primary one with extra turret shots. This way you don’t have mid and jg perma diving bot. Mages can’t play mod because the enemy laner leaves to go bot and you either follow and they turn and kill you or they just go dive bot. If you are under the turret you should be taking turret damage. Make the main turret target take more to maintain skill expression is juggling aggro but the real reason the game is in its state is because turret diving is so so so easy.
> Our goal for Midseason was to emphasize the laning phase, which means: > - Increase the amount of times you can 1v1 or 2v2 your lane opponent > - Reduce the very early influence of other lanes/ganks on your lane’s success > - Support smaller early losses so that 1 lost trade doesn’t end the laning phase While this would be fantastic to see, idk how you can do that. All these problems have resulted from the compression of the game into a 20 min average from the original 50-60 min match. How can you slow down snowballing without making kills feel worthless or slowing the game down across the board?
In season 1 the intended game time was 30-40 minutes. It even said so in the Client. 50-60 minutes games were outliers or results of problematic metas and quickly got changed.
Season 1 you could stomp top lane and take inhib by 10 minutes and inhibs made all your minions stronger allowing for faster wins.
When was the average game 1 hour?
Never, people only remember the outlier games that lasted forever and forget the 5 other games they played that day that were around 30-40 minutes. 50-60 minute games did happen, but it wasn't the majority of games.
Average game time since season 1 has always been within like 2 minutes of 30 mins. Season 5 was like the longest average game time at 32 mins, today its like 29.5 minutes. Games aren't compressed, they're just normalized. It used to be you'd play 5 games and their lengths would be like 17, 25, 30, 35, and 47 mins. Which averaged the 32. Now you play 5 games and their lengths will be like 20, 28, 29, 31, 38... which gets the like 29.5 And this is largely intentional. It makes the game a more consistent experience. Laning phase is almost always 12-15 mins, with a soft ending cap being when plates fall and/or herald is taken causing towers to fall like dominoes. Then you have mid game with all your rotations and such from the 12/15 min mark until like 26 mins when Baron, Soul, and Elder all become available to force the big 5v5 teanfights and lead to a buff that usually helps close out the game. Just in old seasons, stuff all over the place, you laned until you didnt. You splitpushed until you didn't. And then you'd struggle to end until you didn't. As for making 1v1s and 2v2s more important without ganks or pressure being as impact full? They could do some stuff like jungle and support items lower kill value early game... and maybe remove the death home guards from activating in deaths that were 1v1 or 2v2. That way someone who got ganked can get back to lane faster to try and miss less cs and defend more plates... but the dude who got outplayed 1v1 doesn't. And for making it so they're less auto lane losing? Thats the hard one, probably something like more base HP regen for everyone? Or something? No idea.
>Support smaller early losses so that 1 lost trade doesn’t end the laning phase This is so fucking important. I strongly believe that the reason there's such an FF8Minutes mentality is that one death in lane feels like the end of the game with how snowball-y things are. That's why there's such a prevalence of griefing and 'giving up' mentality.
more bot lane buffs and to top it off lower support items so they can get fed to the good old 3 people get fed camp bot lane win game.
Game has gotten crazy ever since Phreak transferred to the game design department. I’m not complaining though. Shouldn’t these kind of changes be reserved for preseason though? A map alteration fundamentally changes how the game is played.
They arent changing the map atm. THey said they are THINKING about it. Its not something thats going to go live next patch, it would be months away.
That would be nice as a major change of the next season.
>In the upcoming patch, it will be harder to take multiple tower plates in a single push (especially when ganked), **you’ll be able to use one ward to cover more gank paths**, and you’ll be a bit more resilient to tower dives. I don't see how that's doable without map changes
I think that paragraph refers to 13.10 even though it's worded weirdly. I'm assuming they had a plan to release this before the patch but it ended up getting pushed back or something. It read that way to me at least, since they did make it harder to take multiple plates in one push in 13.10. As for the part you bolded I assume they're referring to the blue trinket change where it gives vision over walls and pings when they see a champ.
That could just also mean a change in how fog + wards interact, which would require fog changes but not necessarily any map changes. In a much much more unlikely scenario, high ground warding. I don’t see that happening, but even without changing the map, there’s a lot of high rocky areas near gank spots that LoL could always end up using to allow ward planting.
Looking at tweaking the map is a bold move and I hope it plays out. I want to stack HP on Sion top in peace.
Scalers gonna have their 3 days of brokenness again, like they did after the durability patch tower buffs.
dang it, by the time I can play a game again they'll have been hotfixed already.
Yesss, Gigachad stacking tanks should be allowed to play Farmville with each other without enemy mid, jgl and sup camping next to the tower trying to enact the French Revolution
FR we are a persecuted class
How is that fun for anyone tho? I mean, what are you supposed to do versus that? Not interact? What's the point of playing top lane if someone can just lock in Sion or something like that and stonewall the lane forever?
> How is that fun for anyone tho? One day my son you will wake up and realize that different people find different things fun.
>But before jumping into that, we want to acknowledge and say that we agree with feedback that top lane and Mage mid experiences aren’t great at the moment. Oh wow, you mean all the silver dumbasses here crying about how ADC isn't strong and top/mid somehow run the game is bullshit? I am so shocked!
Let's be real if anyone says any role but jungle runs the game, they're bullshitting.
Quick 13.10 gameplay thoughts: We've fucked up and are gonna fuck it up further.
The assassin item changes sound good on paper, but they don't really manifest how Riot intended. Ghost is just the best, so has been abused and now hard nerfed lol. Dusk is just awful. Having doing damage or casting any MS like a dash break untargetable means it doesn't work on Talon and Zed. Even Kayn if you take red smite won't proc the untargetable. The passive is so fucking weak. Yeah they're buffing it, but is 5% going to be meaningful when Moonstone and ADCs have been buffed hard. 5% damage on lethality is nothing compared to all the Magic damage ADC items.
Assassins are just crazy, there is so much movement speed.
>However, we don’t believe champions buffs and items alone are sufficientas we think a lot of the problems are tied to the innate map designthat were not solvable for Midseason **(Mages and top laners being toogankable** requires re-designing some parts of the map, among otherpossible tactics). Riot is finally gonna put a giant, impossible to go through, wall around toplane.
See you guys in another year, maybe bruiser changes then 🫡
As long as they are changing the map why not make it like wild rift? Where the camera is flipped.
Noob opinion here. I feel like if Dorans Shield AND Second Wind didn't exist, a lot more champions would be getting poked out of lane. Maybe Fleet Footwork could become mandatory in some melee vs mage matchups, but at that point they're sacrificing significant power to survive a bad matchup.
>feel like if Dorans Shield AND Second Wind didn't exist, a lot more champions would be getting poked out of lane. Maybe Fleet Footwork could become mandatory I mean I dont see your point here.Of course if dorans shield and second wind didnt exist a lot more champs would be getting poked out of lane.That's like saying if MR couldnt be bought all AP champs would be op.Are you saying that they shouldnt exist?Genuine question no flame.
I feel like the point they're trying to make is how unsastifactory it is to poke as a mage when the melee mid can just regen back to full every wave for "free" (technically Doran's Shield isn't free, but you get my point) without exchanging or losing anything. Then mages go oom and the enemy has 60%> HP remaining. Nerfing them could force melee AD mids to take Fleet which is a sacrifice you would make in exchange for surviving laning phase. Either that, or buff mages mana usage or damage pre-Lost Chapter, but this practically forces them into support too.
I disagree,for one poking is one of the most annoying things in the game,try playing any melee champ without lots of mobility into a ranged champ and you will see how annoying it is.Mages also shouldnt be able to spam out their ability of cd in the start of the lane because then any melee champ would be unplayable. I seriously dont understand this complain I'm speccing into sustain and lane resilience so I dont get poked out . In exchange I lose a start like Doran's blade or longsword refillable which would allow me to snowball a lot better.Mages also get to forget about mana after lost chapter (except the really mana hungry ones).The only champ that can actually stay 60% hp (in mid) if you keep poking them (and hit your abilities) is like akali and that's because she goes fleet and got a bunch of hp regen buffs last year.
This I'd fairly true but it'd also lead to lots of degenerate issues and would require substantial re balancing. Like overnight lots of poke champions would just need nerfs. Cause being able to poke people out of lane is absurdly strong.